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What I Have to Lose by Believing in Jesus

Updated on July 26, 2017

Edit (2017/07/26): HubPages is changing how formatting works. Due to these changes, I've set all photos to full width. This is the only change I'm making at this time.


Believe in Jesus Christ, what do you have to lose?

Blessed Hill asked this question and further expanded on it by adding:

"If the bible is true, and it is, faith in Jesus Christ promises an abundant life now and for eternity. Jesus came to give us something not take something away. So what do you have to lose?"

You can find the question here.

Honestly; this question really feels like another of those attempts to figuratively slap us "non-believers" in the face. A "can't you see the truth?" question to atheists and little more. If Blessed Hill really wanted to find out what drives an atheist to disbelieve the bible, "and it is" would probably be left out, along with all major assumption in the question itself. It would probably read more like this: "If the bible is true, faith in Jesus Christ promises an abundant life now and for eternity: So what do you have to lose?" But it got me thinking, so here I am.

In order to answer this question I must first ask some clarifying questions. If you want the short version (i.e. a list of what I have to lose without my questions) scroll to the end. I'll expect you to have read the whole thing if you post a comment though. The list may leave you wondering what I'm talking about too, so I'd at least scroll back up after peeking. I'll keep it short.


"If the bible is true,"

Are we talking true as in the literal word, or are we talking in the figurative sense? In other words: Are we saying every word in the bible is truth, or more allegory to teach us by way of the mistakes or achievements of others? If we're going by literal word, there are some consistency issues to address. If we're going by figurative sense, we have some other questions regarding the meaning of the stories involved. There's a lot of wiggle room when some stories speak of slavery or torture as a good thing, and others as bad.

Which version? There are many different translations, and translations of translations. Since every translation is filtered through the understanding of the translator, it makes for some interesting changes. After that, the reader must interpret the text themselves. Many different religions spawn from those translations; and more still from interpretations of those translations. The split between Christianity and Judaism is just the beginning.

I'm not even talking about other religious writings or religions, just versions of the bible. Even using the same translation and version of the bible, there are many denominations that crop up. Just for an idea, here's a list of Christian denominations:

To bring this part of the question to a close, let's go with the broadest possible idea I can come up with:

I'll assume hypothetically that the original source of the bible is true. Everything after that is the best interpretation of truth the translator could come up with, while being inspired by God himself. God having a hand in this translation to keep the truth alive for the newest generation.

Is the Bible Literal or Figurative?

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"So what do you have to lose?"

I have to explain a little here. I used to be Christian. I followed doctrine, I went to church every Sunday. I stood and sang. I attended classes. I played sports with my neighbors. I planned my future around God and Christ. It was what I knew was right. Everything about life must involve a close relationship to God, Jesus, family, and my eternity in heaven. I'm not coming at this ignorant of religion. I'm not coming at this as someone who never believed. I'm looking at this aware of the feelings of love and acceptance related to being a believer and feeling God's love. I know what it is to fear God's wrath. I know how good it feels to be loved and protected by my creator.

When I was Christian I lived in fear. I didn't choose what I wanted to do based on my own needs, interests, or even moral standing. I chose based on what others (God, The Devil, clergy, and peers) thought. Because the religion wasn't about me, it was about my relationship with God. That of course was made clear by other people. People who knew more and had a closer connection to God through devotion and service to others. Believing the way I felt was right was shunned upon if it didn't align with someone else's interpretation of the gospel.

I feared God deciding I wasn't worthy and banishing me like Lucifer.
I feared God deciding I wasn't worthy and banishing me like Lucifer. | Source

I looked down on those poor souls who didn't believe as I did. I didn't realize I looked down on them, I just "knew they were going to hell" and I "pitied" them. Unknowingly, I considered them less of a person. Less connected to God. Less of who they should be because they did not believe as I did.

I didn't believe because it felt right, I believed because it was what I was taught to believe in. I didn't question those beliefs because they were truth. I didn't question because those wiser than myself believed. I didn't question because others "knew the church was true." I didn't question because I was afraid of the consequences to my mortal soul. God's wrath. "What if those questions brought to light that my faith was false?" "What if my faith wasn't strong enough?" "What if somehow I had more doubt than belief?" "What if questioning made me believe less?" "What if I found truth somewhere else?" I learned not to question my view of the world. I learned not to question myself.

I looked forward to my life as a Christian and couldn't see a world outside that box. I couldn't see who I could be, just what kind of Christian I would be. I could see where within the priesthood I would be. How devoted to God I would be. What service I would provide the church.

Somewhere deep inside there was another me. Under the gospel. Under God. Under the fear. A part that could feel. With a full range of emotion. A part that wasn't whitewashed with plastic happiness. A part that wasn't defined by my value to a jealous, angry deity. The part I didn't know existed for a long time. That part valued me. That part valued my relationship to the world, people, and myself. That part was miserable. I was lying to myself the worst way possible by denying even looking at myself. I was miserable. I just couldn't see it.

Are You Christian?

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The List: So What Do I Have to Lose?

  1. Respect for others
  2. Curiosity
  3. Honesty
  4. Courage
  5. Integrity
  6. Contentment
  7. Moral Fiber
  8. Free Will
  9. An Open Mind
  10. Self Respect
  11. Self Worth
  12. Happiness

These are all things I didn't have when I was Christian. Leaving that world behind helped me find them.

For Former Believers

Do You Feel More or Less Limited After Leaving Religion?

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Are You Happier Without Religion

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© 2016 kwade tweeling


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    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 3 months ago from USA

      Thank you for your comment. Thank you for your kindness. Thank you for reading.

      I agree, there is much wisdom to be learned from Christianity. I feel the same applies to every religion. Each one I've looked into has a great amount of wisdom to be gleaned. Lessons to help shape us. I also feel it's more important what we do with those lessons. How we use them to bolster each other up. Or as in many cases, tear each other down.

      As you said, favoring what makes one truly happy is something I strongly favor as well. Especially because it is when we are happy that we are truly the best versions of ourselves. I would never ask someone to leave their beliefs behind. I would ask them to question why they believe what they do. While that can lead to the same result, it's for the positive impact on one's life that I take this stance.

    • manatita44 profile image

      manatita44 3 months ago from london

      Interesting article. Your list can apply if you speak of the structure, the dogmas; the everyday body of people within the congregation that you deal with. Nevertheless, there is a lot to learn from prayer and the teachings of both Christ, Apostles and many prophets.

      Still, I always favour that one does what gives one joy; what makes one truly happy. You seem a good person. I'm generally interested in the inside out and not the other way around.

      You seem a good man and have written an interesting Hub. Much Love.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 15 months ago

      No KT!

      One has to BELIEVE the Scriptures are the WORD of GOD; without that, there's no beginning!

      If you BELIEVE, then you must "keep HIS commandments" (John 14:15) in order for you to acquire that "DIRECT" Communication Line to HIM so "No man will have to teach each other" (Jeremiah 31:34)!

      It's that simple! No "sermon!" Just Scripture!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 15 months ago from USA

      HA! All I can do is shake my head and laugh. I tell you discounting my views and throwing a sermon at me loses my respect. I tell you it fails to impress anything upon me as a result. I tell you without that respect, your opinion means little to me. How do you respond? Another sermon. All the while telling me it's not your place to teach me anything. Bravo.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 15 months ago


      Because neither of you "WAITED!"

      How could you be a "devout Christian or a preacher" if not "drawn by the Father?" One can't "make himself" a Christian or a preacher!" John 6:44-45 says "No man can com to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. IT IS WRITTEN in the prophets (Jeremiah 31:34), And they shall be all taught of GOD, Every man therefore that hath "heard," and hath "learned of the Father," cometh unto me."

      You see how what I've been TRYING to tell ALL is TRUE? GOD speaks to us DIRECTLY when HE calls us and "No one is going to have to "teach" anyone ANYTHING" (Jeremiah 31:34)!

      NO! But MOST would rather believe "It happened "back then" and NOT "TODAY" which is the BIGGEST LIE EVER; according to Scripture!



    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 15 months ago from USA

      Exactly my point. Telling others they are wrong because we are sure of our own answers excludes them. I still respect my children's thoughts and recognize they often contain wisdom. I don't win their trust by telling them "you're wrong kid, this is the way it is." That instead turns them away. I have to guide them to the answers I understand and help them see a different point of view, and sometimes they lead me to something new instead. This is sometimes regardless of their innocence, and sometimes because of it.

      When we shut out any other idea because we "know better," we disrespect the other person, and drive them away losing their respect in the process. When we don't even respect someone's opinion as valuable, regardless of it's accuracy, we exclude them from any idea we try to share thereafter.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 16 months ago

      "Christianity is supposed to be about loving each other, not excluding each other."

      Matthew 23!

      Did JESUS appear to LOVE them? HE loves all but "CORRECTS" as we do our wayward children!

    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 16 months ago from USA

      How can I be more clear? You quoted me: “The pastor in the video is reading from the same book (King James version) he has used for 30 years. And now he is seeing changes in that SAME COPY of the book?” and asked who changed it if not man. Try reading that again. No, really. Try rereading it. The copy he had for 30 plus years differs from what he remembers. What did he do, use whiteout on his own book? Who changed it if not man? For all I know, thousands of people could just be remembering the same specific things incorrectly. I don't know. You're the one with the direct line to God. Ask. My point was to show it to you because I figured you'd find it interesting. Not to prove or disprove anything.

      Other than that, I'm done with your judgement and rants. You don't care about other peoples opinions or wisdom because you are convinced of your own superiority.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      If you never said man changed the bible, why do you say “The pastor in the video is reading from the same book (King James version) he has used for 30 years. And now he is seeing changes in that SAME COPY of the book?” Who changed it then if not man?

      I don’t “think” all my information comes straight from Jesus, I KNOW IT! Since “We disagree on the source,” why do you think you are where you are today? You’ve tried RELIGION without HOLY SPIRIT and look what happened? Can’t say I blame you because DEAD RELIGION can be disgruntling!

      Keep “searching!” Keep believing you are happier as Satan would have you believe! You’re just where he wants you in order to keep you away from THE COMMUNICATION LINE! But Scripture doesn’t LIE! John 21:18 says “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.” I pray that HE gives you longevity to come to this state. LOVE!


      One more “soul” lost just because of RELIGION!

      I'm sooooo sorry!

      I Pray!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      I understand the caps for emphasis. I also find it makes reading what you say a little harder to interpret. The caps, the way you have been punctuating, mixed with the bible passages, make it harder to read. I'm sure it's the way we look at things, but there you have it.

      Did you not hear me? I never said man changed the bible.

      I know you think all your information comes straight from Jesus. We disagree on the source. That's fine with me, enjoy your belief.

      I'm not sharing this with you to debunk anything. I'm not sharing it with you because I thought it would shake your faith. I am sharing it because I genuinely thought you might be interested in what they are saying. Your responses make it clear that you think I'm trying to prove your religion wrong by sharing it, and that's not even close to true. I don't care what you believe.

      Over these last two messages, I never said man changed the bible. The videos I shared with you also never said that. Your disdain of "research" and man (I feel) have you blind to this. Try rereading the messages, or rewatching the video with that in mind. The pastor in the video is reading from the same book (King James version) he has used for 30 years. And now he is seeing changes in that SAME COPY of the book. I thought you might be interested in this information as it goes in line with your saying the important part is the connection to God.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      They say when I write in CAPS, I’m screaming when I’m actually placing emphasis on words but THIS TIME “I’M SCREAMING!”


      I’m TIRED of telling you JESUS (aka GOD) SAID THIS! DOES HE LIE? The PROBLEM is, MOST have not been “taught” there is a HOLY SPIRIT that “WORKS” but ONLY “IF” we’ve done as “commanded!” MOST don’t have that “COMMUNICATION LINE” because they were not “taught” to “WAIT” (Acts 1:4) for the HELP “Promised” and are just running around like chickens with their heads cut off “trying to FIGURE IT OUT” via "Research," translations from "original languages" (Hebrew/Greek), etc and have become disgruntled because they're stuck in DEAD RELIGION with no manifestations of actions!

      Back to where we started! I’m sooooo sorry!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      What I mean, and what you read are very different things.

      Did you watch that second video?

      The changes are between what people remember versus what is currently there. Much like the pastor in the second video.

      The change is only a change if you believe the memories of people are correct, and not the way it is in the King James version of the bible. If it was never changed, these people remember incorrectly. The King James version of the bible says "Wolf" and people remember the animal being a lion. Again, if the memories of these people are correct, the King James version of the bible is no longer the same as it once was. Not a translation, the same text. It has been changed both now, and in the past. This is the case on web sites and in printed form.

      If that particular passage isn't one you are familiar with, there are others. References to wine-skins or water skins seem to be changed to bottles. (This doesn't mean translated differently. It means the same physical copies of the book, now read differently.)

      I found it interesting and thought you might too, since you were talking about God sending the truth to your heart. (As was the pastor in the video. You two used almost the same words.)

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      If you are a “BELIEVER” the HOLY SPIRIT “WORKS" not when one is possessed with a “mind of their own” (demon)! Therefore, you are not “just where you’re supposed to be!” I thought RELIGION taught you that much at least!

      You said “Scientists are more “intelligent”…” therefore, you must rely on “man” more than GOD! GOD “allowed” ALL inventions to enter the mind of man and what man has “invented” HE uses for HIS benefit, e.g. computer! GOD created both good and evil for HIS WILL (Isaiah 45:7)! You will NEVER “understand GOD” UNLESS you acquire “THE COMMUNICATION LINE” (aka HOLY SPIRIT) with HIM which comes from “BELIEF!”

      Well if the video was not concerning translations and retranslation, why did you quote a passage that has been changed? Isaiah 11:6 did not lose meaning! A “lion” and “wolf” BOTH devour a “lamb!” You see what I mean? No lost in meaning! GOD will not “allow” and if “man” THINKS he can lose meaning and one has “WAITED” for THE COMMUNICATION LINE (aka HOLY SPIRIT), HE will “reveal!”

      There’s ONE THING about GOD: If you don’t obey HIS “commands” in the order given, you may THINK you know HIM, but one will find self in DEAD RELIGION!

      LISTEN: When you were a teenager and your parents went out of town, they would leave instructions (“commands”) for you to complete! THE SAME IT IS WITH CHRIST. Before HE got on the cloud for heaven (ascended), HE left us instructions (“commands”) and who bothers to READ to see what HE SAID?

      Matthew 28:19 (1)“OBERSERVE THE DISCIPLES;” (2) “WAIT” (Acts 1:4) for THE PROMISE (aka HOLY SPIRIT); (3) THE PROMISE was PROMISED in John 14:26; 16:13; (4) Before all of this, HE HAD PROMISED “A NEW COVENANT” in which “HE WOULD PUT HIS LAWS in OUR HEARTS & MINDS” (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10; 10:16); (5) Now HOW did/does HE accomplish this? Acts 1:2 “Until THE DAY IN WHICH HE WAS TAKEN UP, (LISTEN) “AFTER THAT” HE (JESUS) through the HOLY SPIRIT [STILL] GAVE “commandments” unto the apostles whom HE has “CHOSEN!” (6) Did HE not “CHOSE” Paul as an Apostle as well? (7) Acts 9:15 say, “He (PAUL) would be HIS “CHOSEN” vessel!” (7) Were we not “commanded” to “OBSERVE THE APOSTLES?” (8) Why then DON’T we?

      RELIGION does NOT teach TRUTH rather “Pauline Doctrine” which has made MOST miss “THE (ONLY) COMMUNICATION LINE” (aka HOLY SPIRIT) to GOD!

      You worry about the wrong thing! HOLY SPIRIT “WORKS” for those who “BELIEVE!” HE “reveals” additions and deletions by “man!”

      I AGREE! “We should be learning from each other” BUT if one defies what “IS WRITTEN” (Not what I believe) BUT what “IS WRITTEN,” Scripture tells us to “REBUKE” (Leviticus 19:17; Titus 1:13), “CORRECT” (II Timothy 3:16) and if we don’t “their blood will be on our hand” (Ezekiel 3:18)! Where “respect” for an “unbeliever” came from I don’t know (Matthew 23)! We “love” them and why we “correct” them as you would your child!

      Date night with husband! Talk to you later!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      "HOLY SPIRIT does ALL the "WORK" regarding ANYTHING and NOTHING “man” has said or done is important." Then I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing as God deems it so. Why are you so vociferous about this?

      Who said anything about scientists having "intelligence" of God? And why did you quote that? You said God provides everything (computers specifically) and therefore must have reached inventors to do it. If that's the case, they would have to be able to hear God, right? You said man can accomplish nothing without God, so I'm asking how technology is granted to humanity with no connection to God through the bible. I'm just trying to understand your rules for God. (Feel free to read that as: "I'm trying to understand 'God's rules' since I'm ignorant.")

      You didn't pay enough attention to the video if you think it was about translations taking away from the bible. It was talking about something entirely different. Try to realize I'm not flaming the bible with this. One example is this: There's a passage in the King James version of the bible (Isaiah 11:6) that the guys in the video (me too for that matter) remember saying "The lion shall lay down with the lamb." If you look it up now, it says "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb."

      How do you remember it? Does your bible coincide with your memory, or the "reality"?

      This video may be easier to follow and focuses only on the bible:

      I'd say the sad part about the world is that people think anyone who doesn't see it the same way is an enemy. I feel we should be learning from each other while treating each other with love and respect.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      I see that you really DON’T “understand anything I’m saying but let me “try” and tell you AGAIN! You speak of “science” and/or “carnal things” as I “try” and tell you that the HOLY SPIRIT does ALL the "WORK" regarding ANYTHING and NOTHING “man” has said or done is important. Once we acquire the “Communication Line” to HIM, it’s DIRECT contact with HIM for HE “puts HIS laws in our hearts and minds!”

      Unbelievable? Only if you’ve never experienced!

      Scientists are good in their place but there is “NO MAN” who has the “intelligence” of GOD and there NEVER will be! If you think otherwise; you’re IGNORANT!

      Did you notice in the first paragraph I said “The HOLY SPIRIT does ALL the work…?” Therefore, the video you provided indicating translation after translation of the Bible has taken away the original meaning is NOTHING when a “Communication Line” to GOD has been established! There are some things GOD will not “allow” to be changed and one of many is HE will “lead and guides us into ALL truth” (John 14:26)! So it doesn’t matter how they’ve translated, retranslated, reworded, added, deleted, etc, HE WILL LET ONE KNOW!

      Funny (to you maybe), but HE KNEW this would happen! Revelation 22:18-19 says “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, GOD shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, GOD shall take away his part of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

      The sad part about the world is, They don’t BELIEVE the HOLY SPIRIT “WORKS!” They see HIM (aka JESUS) as something that happened “back then” and is now something “mystic and demonic” and/or not “politically correct” in RELIGION! Lol THE BIGGEST MISTAKE A “Christian” CAN MAKE! No “Communication Line” and just “out there trying to figure it out” as you~!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      It's amazing how you both expect me to understand you, and yet assume I won't at the same time. It's also interesting how you expect me to make every effort to understand you, but when I try to get clarity, you call it babbling. You're now saying we are speaking a different language. Then why would you expect me to understand anything you're saying?

      Another problem with deciding "man's education" is "worthless knowledge" is that when you talk about science, it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about. "Farted from stars" is cute. But you could also interpret that as "ash to ash and dust to dust." Can God, the all powerful, not use the stars as a means to make man? He can make man from dirt and a woman from a rib, after all. Speaking with a scientist who believes in God is easier for the educated, because they understand both subjects. It doesn't matter if they reject the theory, or shape it to their own beliefs. I've met scientists who say everything they learn from science just proves their faith and is backed up by their direct communication line with God. They're easier to talk to because they're not completely ignorant of science or language.

      You're even saying that you refuse to use language others would understand.

      From some of the things you've said, I thought you might appreciate this: I've been studying the Mandela Effect a lot the last week or so. There are a bunch of references for bible passages changing. Make of it what you will.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      II Corinthians 11: 6 “Though I be “RUDE IN SPEECH,” yet NOT IN KNOWLEDGE (OF HIS WORD; Not your kind of worthless “knowledge” which is non-Spiritual); but we have been thoroughly made manifest among you in all things.”

      We do speak “two different languages!” I speak from WORD; you from “man!” In order to have a conversation with me, you MUST either KNOW the Bible or have one beside you to follow Scriptures and verses given!

      As far as “Christianity” is concerned, they are DISCIPLES OF CHRIST or CHRIST “FOLLOWERS” and not just Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (“Trinity”) believers or “spin-offs!” Disciples of Christ “FOLLOW” what HE DID and what HE SAID taking into consideration the “chronological order” of events (Isaiah 28:10-13)! We don’t “listen to man,” ONLY the HOLY SPIRIT (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10; 10:16)! Galatians 3:25 says of the Ten Commandments “But after “FAITH” is come we no longer need a Schoolmaster” and it’s THE SAME with “A BIBLE!” Now, don’t get me wrong, the Bible is our FOUNDATION as were The Ten Commandments “to bring us UNTO Christ” (Galatians 3:24) but after “FAITH” is come, we are no longer under “A BIBLE!”

      We CURRENTLY live under the NEW COVENANT where GOD (aka JESUS/HOLY SPIRIT) “puts HIS laws in our hearts and minds” (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10; 10:16)! Therefore, IF we have a DIRECT COMMUNICATION LINE with HIM because we “WAITED” as we were “commanded” (Acts 1:4), why would we need one? Ever heard TRUTH before?

      ALL that “babbling” you do concerning “not writing clear, technology, research, etc means NOTHING to me! I’m only “trying” to tell you, man WILL eventually realize there is ONE SPIRIT who “created us” and we were not (As one Hubber put it) “farted from stars” and how to “CONNECT” to HIM!

      I speak WORD and not “man’s definition” of ANYTHING! Again, “Christianity” is NOT a RELIGION but (Not “A” belief; but “THE”) BELIEF in THE SPIRIT or OUR CREATOR!” Let’s go back to THE FOUNDATION – Bible (Since I’m talking to an unbeliever!) for GOD’S definition of RELIGION! James 1:27 says “PURE “RELIGION” and undefiled before GOD and the Father is THIS, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” ALL of these things are “carnal” and not “SPIRITUAL!” It is “DOING” good which is a “by product” IF one “WAITED” (Acts 1:4)!

      I HATE RELIGION! Look what it's done to you and MANY others!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      Admit what?

      Again, you don't know what "convict" means. And you're the one who used it in the first place, why are you quoting it? You don't know what "research" or "convert" or "religion" mean either. We may as well be speaking different languages. You don't use the common definitions, at least. When you type a response, it's like getting your response typed as fast as possible is the most important thing to you. To hell with making it legible. Talking to you has been like talking to someone on massive amounts of mind altering medication. Only your definitions are less clear, and you quote your religion constantly. This is not an exaggeration, I've actually had these conversations. It might be influenced by the fact that this is text, but I don't know for sure. You're so busy popping in quotes, you don't look to make sure your sentence makes sense.

      As for research being outside the bible and God giving us all things. Where are the instructions for making a computer? You said that was "allowed by God." And you said anything outside the bible is "research" which can't bring anything because it's not from God, apparently. So, where in the bible are the blueprints for everything? Where is the divine inspiration coming from.

      No, you can't claim all conceived technologies were inspired by God. If they were, then your premise that the bible is the only way to connect to him is false.

      Not going to hell for sin, but for disbelief? Awesome. Glad you have a free pass to be immoral because you believe what you do. But why did you bring up sin in the first place?

      "I’m not trying to “show you, you are in error but show you GOD RULES “IF” you allow HIM!"

      Then you're failing darlin'. Because all I see is another zealot who's using her self righteous attitude to try and bully and belittle a "non-believer".

      You try to wrap it in a bow of pity for my plight, but if that's what it really was, you wouldn't keep condescending and preaching at me. You'd communicate and stop pretending "religion" (other people's religion) was to blame.

      "“Christianity” is NOT a RELIGION but BELIEF in THE SPIRIT or OUR CREATOR!"

      That's the very definition of religion! ("the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.") WHY can't you see that? Or why do you see it as a bad thing when it's defined, but just fine if you don't call it the word that means the EXACT SAME word grouping you yourself used?

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      Again, if you “perceive” my discussion with you as GOD “convicting” you to “a conversion,” so be it! You may as well admit it! There is a CREATOR who is ONE SPIRIT and HIS NAME IS JESUS – NOT GOD! GOD is what HE IS but JESUS is who HE IS!

      I have NO RELIGION dear heart rather BELIEVE in “The Gospel of Christ” (Galatians 1:6-9)! You didn’t “grow up” in ANYTHING or you wouldn’t be where you are today! Scripture says “Train up a child in the way HE SHOULD GO and when he’s old HE WON’T DEPART” (Proverbs 22:6) and we see where you are; therefore, no one knew how to train you! So I ask, what “belief system” for who knows what you are worshiping? IT IS “fine with me” because I do as “commanded” and one can TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT but “your blood is not on my hand” (Ezekiel 3:18)! WORD says “If they don’t receive you or your words then “shake the dust of my feet” but it will be WORST than with Sodom and Gomorah in the day of judgment” (Matthew 10:14)!

      No, I’m not saying “You need to close your eyes, and mind, and follow blindly,” I’m saying “You need to OPEN your SPIRITUAL EYES, BELIEVE “HE” is GOD, and follow JESUS!” Because HE IS “all knowing, all powerful” HE doesn’t NEED “your help” in ANY form or fashion; it doesn’t matter “where you came from!” Because you are “IGNORANT of HIS WORD” is exactly why you are where you are today and AGAIN “I’m sooooo sorry!

      In reference to RELIGIONS via “cultures,” why do you think GOD allowed the computer to be invented? HE KNEW “from the beginning” (For HE looks from the END as we are “limited” and can only see from the BEGINNING) it would be and is why Matthew 24:14 says “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in ALL THE WORLD for a witness unto ALL NATIONS; and then shall THE END COME.” HE also stated in II Kings 17:29-41 that they “until this day, fear GOD but worship idols!” Oh, they are on HP and have heard “The Gospel of Christ” preached via other means also, but it’s up to them to “Believe” or be LOST as it is with you! It’s also available to “Atheist and/or Buddhism” because Matthew 24:14 DOES NOT LIE!

      “Research” means “other means” than the Bible! Why do we have to go outside of HIS WORD when II Peter 1:3 says “According to his divine power hath given unto us ALL THINGS that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.” Therefore, EVERTHING we need to know “pertaining to life and godliness” is in HIS WORD!

      GOD NEVER SAID “We are going to hell for sin” but for UNBELIEF (Hebrews 3:19)! You see? This is EXACTLY what I’ve been telling you, RELIGION has you and the MAJORITY of “Believers” - TWISTED! Baby, all we have to do is BELIEVE “rightly divided WORD” (II Timothy 2:15), “WAIT” (Acts 1:4) for the “HELP” (Acts 1:8) HE “promised” (John 14:26; 16:13) and HE (aka Holy Spirit) will do the rest! It’s just that EASY! CHRIST HAS DONE IT ALL (Book of Hebrews)! I’m not trying to “show you, you are in error but show you GOD RULES “IF” you allow HIM!

      If you don’t believe in “CHRIST” (aka “Christianity”) why continue this conversation? “Christianity” is NOT a RELIGION but BELIEF in THE SPIRIT or OUR CREATOR! I also disagree with the “politically correct” RELIGION MOST THINK they have been “saved” under and it is “full of it!” If that’s the “consolation prize,” MOST are in for a rude awakening!

      Others can believe as they please, but until they acquire the “Communication Line” to GOD, they’re just as LOST as you! Of course you don’t “know that GOD is true deep down,” how could you when you’ve NEVER (as MOST) acquired the “Communication Line” with HIM! I certainly can see why you are where you are today and AGAIN “I’m sooooo very sorry!

      The ONLY WAY you will “KNOW” is to “Go Back” (Isaiah 28:13) and “WAIT” for the “PROMISE” of the “HELP” from the HOLY SPIRIT who will “lead and guide you into ALL truth” (John 14:26)!

      Again, I’m sooooo sorry!

      Again, I do HATE RELIGION for look what it's done to you and MANY others!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      God declared me of criminal intent to see your discussion as a conversion. What? That makes no sense to me. Though it does seem you don't see what you are doing as trying to convert me so I'll follow with this:

      “Don’t follow me, follow JESUS!”

      That's what I'm talking about. You're trying to convert me to follow Jesus. That's why I said you're trying to convert me to your religion. Seems pretty clear and simple to me. You feel your religion is not the same as the Christianity I grew up in, so you try to urge me to follow Jesus the way you do. That's what conversion means in regard to religion. Changing one's belief system. Trying to convert someone is sharing your idea in the hope that they will change their beliefs. If that's fine with you, why be offended by someone seeing it?

      "When YOU start “researching” with your “open mind,” YOU work AGAINST the SPIRIT of GOD! HE wants to be (AND “IS”) TOP DOG (To relate to you!), not YOU!"

      So, you're saying I need to close my eyes, and mind, and follow blindly. It's sad that an "all knowing, all powerful" being cannot get around my being open, and requires blind faith regardless of where I come from. Especially if I am ignorant of "his word." Someone believing in Islam wouldn't get away from Allah by doing this. Are they just screwed because they were born to the wrong faith? Is it the same for someone born to Atheism or Buddhism?

      Also, what do you think the word "research" means? Why so hard up to attack the word?


      Awesome. So why go rant on someone who "sinned." Is that not exactly what God says not to do?

      You beat me? What context are you using? What was your goal? If you're trying to "bring me to the truth," you've failed. That would mean you've shown me I'm in error, would it not?

      Winning an argument? Because if you're trying to win an argument, that's one more sign we don't look at this conversation the same way. Even so, what do you think it means to win? Showing me I'm incorrect? Or are you just trying to assert your dominance based on some rules I'm not even aware of?

      You also seem to have forgotten I don't believe in Christianity at all. That's how you came to start this conversion in the first place. Sooooo... no, I will not believe in that "politically correct" religion that I already feel is full of it. Thanks for offering it as a consolation prize, I guess.

      One thing you (and most Christians) fail to see, is that other people with different beliefs also tell the truth, according to what they believe. You refuse to even recognize that other people believe something that you don't. We're not just "on the bench." And we don't "know that God is true deep down." Any more than you truly believe that Odin is your lord and savior. Both notions are ridiculous. To me, that's the worst thing about religion and it's the biggest reason I never went back once I left. That attitude of not understanding but "knowing enough."

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      When I came into this conversation, I was expressing how I HATE RELIGION because it doesn’t disciple the sheep rather leave them to “figure it out” and confuse them moreso by teaching “twisted” doctrine. As a matter of fact, I recall saying “Don’t follow me, follow JESUS!” However, if GOD has “convicted” you to perceive my discussion as “a conversion,” so be it!

      Wade, this is a SPIRITUAL journey wherein FAITH in the UNKNOWN is mandatory! When YOU start “researching” with your “open mind,” YOU work AGAINST the SPIRIT of GOD! HE wants to be (AND “IS”) TOP DOG (To relate to you!), not YOU!

      The Bible is the “foundation” and “basic instructions” in gaining a SPIRITUAL relationship with GOD in order to form a “Communication Line” to HIM! Once that’s acquired, it’s YOU and HIM all the way for HE “puts his laws in OUR hearts and minds” (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10; 10:16) and will “lead and guide us into ALL truth” (John 14:26)! Jeremiah 31:34 “And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall ALL KNOW ME, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SIN NO MORE!” You think I’m lying? I don’t NEED you (man) or anyone else to tell me I don’t KNOW THE LORD because I’ve acquired that “Communication Line” to HIM (aka Holy Spirit) and it’s me and HIM baby! I’m ONLY telling ALL how to acquire It but one CAN NOT “IF” they don’t BELIEVE (Hebrews 3:19)! It ain’t about a book! It ain’t about who said what about the book! It’s about acquiring the “Communication Line” directly to THE SPIRIT who is our CREATOR!

      Nonsense? It’s up to you (“Choose”)! But I beat you, I don’t have any DOUBT!

      All the other “babble” you spoke of is NOTHING to me! You can perceive me as you please! You can believe “politically correct” RELIGION if you like but miss that “Communication Line” and you have NOTHING but “DOUBT” saying things like “IF there is” and “Maybe there’s a possibility!” BS! I’m here to tell you GOD IS A SPIRIT and the ONLY WAY you can “communicate with HIM” is “IN SPIRIT!”

      Whatever, whatever, whatever but I TELL TRUTH according to HIS WORD!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      Norine, I love how you fight and fight to convert me, then when I won't submit to you, you throw out one last hurrah about how your way is "GOD'S WAY" and try to make me sound horrible for being open minded.

      This attitude is why those who don't believe in something (whatever it is, regardless of our faith) are not converted by zealots. You again assert your way is the only way. That's not even the problem. You assert your findings are the only correct ones. Still not the problem. You turn to a book written long ago by a less educated culture as the source of truth. Still not even the problem. You get that attitude that you're right and the rest of us are wrong. Again, still not even the problem. Though all of those things make it harder to take you seriously.

      What is the problem, you ask?

      Many, I'll break the big ones down:

      -You won't even treat those who don't believe as though we are intelligent individuals. (Respect, the bible says to have it for the rest of us. Or was that a "RELIGION" lie too?)

      -You hammer your "truths" into us, expecting it to take eventually. (Water and care for a seed to make it grow. Or is that a "RELIGION" lie as well?)

      -You assert that us being open minded is bad. (If we weren't open minded, we couldn't consider your ideas at all. We'd just see what we know and ignore you as a nut who believes in fables. Open-mindedness is an ability to take in new information and consider it rather than dismiss it immediately.)

      -You choose to look at education as a bad thing. (Probably the most troubling of all.)

      When you act as though any education outside yours is BS, we instantly feel you choose to live in ignorance. If your religion is true, can it not stand up to a little test of faith? Then you go about claiming humanity's best efforts to learn are nothing more than ignorance. Ignorance is when one lacks knowledge or information. Talk about willful ignorance. (That's where you have the tools to educate yourself and choose not to.) Sure, you could claim I have ignorance in regard to what you believe. You'd be correct. Knowledge is; "facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject." Or "awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation," if you prefer. So, you are correct. I do not have familiarity with your religion. You have me beat in your knowledge of it. I am, therefore, ignorant when it comes to what you believe.

      You have called the sum total of science ignorance, repeatedly. Man's science has brought us many things we use today. I mentioned the Internet and computers before. Our vehicles, lights, the way we get and store our food, and the book you read from to name a few. Science at it's very core is an effort to learn as much as possible from every source possible. The bible is not even rejected by science itself as science is an effort to systematically study everything around us. Science is a group effort that anyone can undertake, and many of faith do. Yet, you badmouth it as ignorance. Again, this feels like you choose to remain ignorant yourself.

      You could have taken the time to get to know me a little. You could have taken the time to be "Christ-like" in your efforts to treat me with love and respect. You could have been sure you understood what I was saying before going off half-cocked on another rant every time you responded. Instead, in classic Christian zealot fashion, you attack with "facts" from the bible. You quote with fervor and hope to reach me with "wisdom" and "God's Word." You push your ideas at me, without the care those words deserve. You treat me like an ignorant fool when I don't bow down to what you believe and threaten my soul with eternal damnation. I even agree with you on some things. We probably agree on even more than what I saw. We'll never know because you choose to attack, when you should be stopping and getting clarity.

      Thanks for the ride I asked not to go on. Enjoy your eternal sunshine in God's light.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      You do it YOUR way and I'll do IT GOD'S WAY!

      I still don't see the "accurate" fulfilled prophecies written BEFORE the Bible! However, IF you want to believe "MAN" rather than GOD; it's your "Choice!"

      We'll KNOW in the end; want we? I AM CONFIDENT! I NEVER use the term "possibility" as you; so GOOD LUCK! You'll need it since that's all you have!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      FYI it might help if you cared about punctuation and/or grammar.

      I pointed out things that existed before the bible because that's what you just asked for ("Provide the book written BEFORE Bible!"). Pardon me for not reading into it and remembering your previous angry rant asking me for prophecies. I tire of your zealotry. You keep spewing bible passages, but again, if you're trying to prove it is truth, you're not going about it very well by spouting nonsense.

      I already gave you some with "prophecies fulfilled". You don't like that most weren't printed before the bible. Fine. Try Sumerian texts. I also mentioned that Jesus story was not the first of it's kind. These exist all over the place if you care to look. If I did the work to find these, again, I'm pretty sure you'd just run on the false prophecy angle. (Why? Because you already ignored it. Also because that's what you zealots have done before. Remember I said I've done this song and dance and don't want to do it again?) Feel free to look for them yourself. I already gave you one link there. I'm not doing the digging for you just to have you throw the "RESEARCH" word back at me when you don't even know what that word means ( Also, the way you throw around "MAN", I'm just going to take for granted that you won't bother looking because you'll just decide that "MAN" is lying and these other texts and tablets are fake.

      Feel free to now point out which prophecies from YOUR bible are ACCURATELY fulfilled. NOT with tons of room for interpretation, accurate ( I bet we'll get the classics, including Noah. You'll declare they are verified as fact. But they'll be the ones scientists have been searching for proof of, but have only found modest possibility. But you take THAT research as resounding fact, when all other research that doesn't back up your belief must be "BS."

      Ooooooooo.... "nonsense blah blah blah... I'm ready how about YOU?"

      Thank you so much! That was sufficiently intimidating. Now I know you're right and the devil is going to get me. Thank you for showing me the light. I don't know what I would do with my life if I didn't have a religious person fly off the handle at me and tell me I'm going to hell.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      What was all that 1-4 BS ? I asked for "ACCURATE" FULFILLED PROPHECIES" not proof "man said" something existed before the Bible!

      You know what? You can't! So you're full of it!

      Therefore, you "babble" and I won't "waste valuable time" (Matthew 7:6) on someone who doesn't care about HIS CREATOR (Romans 1:16-32)! Therefore, I will not read any more of your "babbling" and do as Scripture says "Shake the dust off my feet!"

      Matthew 10:14-15 "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, "shake the dust of your feet. VERILY I say unto YOU, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city (YOU)!"

      II Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things DONE IN HIS BODY, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or BAD!"

      I'm ready! How about YOU?


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      "I give HIS WORD and when you say “I’ve shown *my* ignorance” guess what, you are calling YOUR CREATOR “ignorant” for HIS WORD is HIM! Now deal with that one! “Perspective” you “think?” Provide the book written BEFORE Bible!"

      Before the bible. Have you ever tried looking? Book is a bit of a misnomer that far back, but here are a couple things to look up:

      1. Try the "Epic of Gilgamesh."

      2. Akkadian literature: (first site I found)

      3. The Egyptians have some too. If you count the pyramids themselves, there's a source. If you wish for it to be hand held try "The Book of the Dead" which was supposed to help the deceased in the afterlife.

      4. And check this out:

      That's four sources for you. There are more, but you only needed one.

      Moving back to me calling "MY CREATOR" (I'm guessing you need me to yell while I type since you keep doing it) ignorant. No, I'm not. I'm not acknowledging the existence of a supernatural being. HOWEVER (did yelling here help?), if I were, I would still be denying you as the soul authority or connection to him/her (dealt with).

      How many people would you call arrogant or ignorant for asserting to know what God thinks?

      I'll answer this for you:

      Any who do not agree with you.

      Why do I know this? You've been doing it this whole time. You're doing it on the question this article was in response to as well. Of course, that's because you are only giving HIS WORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So I guess you're fine there, because you're right, and all. To hell with anyone who doesn't agree, and forget about empathy or trying to understand your audience. (You know, connecting with the person you're yelling at to be sure they understand your message?)

      I am telling you that I don't accept your CONNECTION to GOD as the one true connection. You assert that it is, and quote why you believe it. And again you send a huge message quoting said book. This time, I am not even skimming it. I answered the end because I saw it as I scrolled up, but the thing is, you're barking up the wrong tree here. You're asserting your dominance over me in religion and failing because I don't believe you. Oh, sorry, I should use your language: "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU!!" You keep telling me I reject God. That's not even the case here; I reject the dominating person who is throwing "God's greatness" at me like a weapon. Let me repeat that for clarity:

      I reject the dominating person who is throwing "GOD'S GREATNESS" at me like a WEAPON.

      You say you're so sorry for me because religion did this to me. Guess what, you're doing the same thing. Sorry, THE SAME THING! You've come at me with the submit and succumb attitude. Congratulations for being "BETTER THAN RELIGION" and coming at me in ANGER. You've IMPRESSED me and now I see that GOD IS ALL and you are his PROPHET.

      I guess you can't be blamed. God hasn't told you how to reach me, apparently.

      Maybe I should have prefaced this and said I was done playing nice. Oh well.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      Continuation of previous comment:

      Christianity may be defined by the world as “a Religion,” but Christ did not relate HIMSELF to the Scribes and Pharisees who stood for Religion during his walk on earth! They (RELIGION) were HIS GREATEST ENEMIES! Why then do we call “Christianity” a RELIGION? We shame Christ! Don’t EVER relate my BELIEF in JESUS CHRIST as “a Religion” for I am in no way as the Scribes and Pharisees! They were all “carnal” and had to “DO” in order to “GET” anything from their God as those who do “research!” DOING, DOING, DOING; versus relying TOTALLY on the HOLY SPIRIT! “Others can look” wherever they please, BUT THE SPIRIT is what we should seek! If “others” can provide a book with as many “accurate” fulfilled prophecies as the Bible, then they MAY have a leg to stand on, but until then, the Bible is HIS WORD! Yes GOD allows us to “find what we look for” because it was stated in HIS WORD (Romans 1:28)! II Kings 17:29; 32-34; 38-41 says (v29) “Howbeit every nation made gods of their own, and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities wherein they dwelt. (v 32-34) So they feared the LORD, and made unto themselves of the lowest of them priests of the high places, which sacrificed for them in the houses of the high places. They feared the LORD, and served their own gods (DID YOU HEAR THAT?), after the manner of the nations whom they carried away from thence. Unto this day they do after the former manners: they fear NOT the LORD (DID YOU HEAR THAT?), neither do they after they statutes, or after their ordinances, or after the law and commandment which the LORD commanded the children of Jacob, whom he named Israel (v 38-41) And the covenant that I have made with you ye shall not forget; neither shall ye fear other gods; But the LORD your God ye shall fear; and he shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies. Howbeit they DID NOT harken, but they did after their former manner. (DID YOU HEAR THAT? Keep serving “your god” by “RESEARCHING!”) “So these nations feared the LORD, and served their graven images (man/Research) both their children (I pray not!), and their children’s children: as did their fathers, so do they UNTO THIS DAY.” I’m sooooo sorry! Yes, we do “find what we look for!”

      In response to my remark “Well, I have told you what the WORD SAYS,” I BELIEVE the Bible is the WORD of GOD written by men yet “inspired by GOD!” In saying so, when I “repeat” HIS WORD, it is GOD SPEAKING and should not be taken as *my* “soul authority!”

      “…as long as people don’t try to covert me by telling me how little I know, I’m happy to discuss beliefs with people and be proven wrong.” Mocking other people’s efforts or beliefs does not convert, by the way.”

      No you’re not “…happy to discuss beliefs with people and be proven wrong!” FIRST you don’t believe Bible but can’t provide another book with as many “accurate” fulfilled prophecies debunking your belief that it isn’t the “inspired word of God” yet won’t succumb! SECOND you say there is a “possibility” of there being a higher power” but have “premonitions” (From whom?) but want succumb! THIRD you rely on self more than THE CREATOR and won’t succumb and say “possibility” of a higher power? It appears there is no power higher than yours because you’re “fine” with what you’ve “researched” and found to be “true!”

      “Mocking other people’s efforts or beliefs does not convert, by the way.”

      Here comes RELIGION again! Please keep your eyes on the WORD of GOD when “judging!” What did JESUS do? Are we not to “Follow HIM” (John 21:19)? Have you read Matthew 23? At least I’ve only called you “IGNORANT” (Not knowledgeable of WORD!) on a couple of occasions but I follow JESUS (Matthew 23)!

      I don’t “claim to know so much that others do not,” I KNOW they have not “STUDIED” HIS WORD based on IGNORANT statements you and others make! You don’t believe but those who “proclaim Christianity” (and you say you’ve been there) should KNOW what HE’S SAID! How can one “proclaim” to be a police officer and don’t know the laws? The same it is with “Christianity!” You can’t say you love the LORD and don’t know HIS laws! You can’t say you’re a Christian and don’t follow HIM (HIS LAWS)! Then when someone comes along and tries to tell what HE’S SAID in HIS WORD, they take it as an “insult” because that’s not what they’ve heard their preachers, pastors, priests and popes say! BS!

      “You lie to yourself when you assume no one else could reach another conclusion when they experience what you have.” RELIGION - “again!” If HIS WORD SAYS “ONE” Mind” (Philippians 2:5) how can others “reach ANOTHER conclusion?” Don’t say It’s *my* way or hit the highway, but what WORD (GOD) SAYS! How what works? No one cares who “demands they are right and another is wrong,” It’s what GOD SAYS and is why II Timothy 3:16 says “ALL Scripture is given by THE INSPIRATION OF GOD, and is “profitable” for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS!” Therefore, one should “PROVE” with HIS WORD another is wrong or using HIS WORD “out of context!” The WORD further tells us (Disciples of Christ) to “…not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise REBUKE thy neighbor and not suffer sin upon him.” What are we to do? What society perceives as “religiously correct” or as GOD commands? I know you “think” the Bible is a bunch of malarkey, but until you can “provide the book,” IT is as STANDS; the “inspired WORD of GOD!”

      Oh yes, it’s “you” vs THE CREATOR for HIS WORD is HIM! The problem is “You have no HELP from HIM to receive “TRUTH!” What do you call “YOUR” OWN sense of intuition?” Of GOD? BS! You “belittle” yourself and “shame GOD” by not TRUSTING HIM! Don’t you think the CREATOR has the POWER to “reveal” right from wrong to you WITHOUT “YOUR” help? BS! That’s “your thinking” “YOU” can “DO” a BETTER JOB than HE! BS! You’re “abhorred?” How do you think GOD feels?

      Dear heart, when “YOU” assume “YOU” have connection to the supernatural but don’t believe the WORD of GOD and/or what HE HAS SAID, “supernatural power” from whom? I Corinthians 10:21 says “One cannot eat from the table of the LORD and the table of demons” so who do you serve?

      Yes, you MAY have “laid hands on another both before you left “RELIGION,” and after though you don’t see it the same way anymore” and it wasn’t the SAME way! Did not HEAR Matthew 7:21-23? Are there not “spirits” of non-believers as well who wrought many “wonderful works?” How could they have been of GOD when one did not “WAIT” nor BELIEVE in ALL of HIS “rightly divided WORD” (II Timothy 2:15)?

      “Premonitions” are of GOD and everyone has them! “Feelings” or of man and everyone has them!

      “The difference is that I (you) don’t insist it’s granted by a specific higher power, but AM OPEN to the IDEA of a higher power being it’s source. I suppose that means once again you call on Satan.”

      Again I Corinthians 10:21! “You can serve two masters” (Matthew 6:24)! Let me tell you something about GOD: HE looks at the END whereas we look at the beginning! HE knew that beneath all that RELIGION you would eventually come to THIS conclusion! HE KNEW “your heart” was not in it!

      I give HIS WORD and when you say “I’ve shown *my* ignorance” guess what, you are calling YOUR CREATOR “ignorant” for HIS WORD is HIM! Now deal with that one! “Perspective” you “think?” Provide the book written BEFORE Bible!

    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      First you tell me not to discredit your source, then you ask me to dispute it's validity. I'll say this much about the bible: The bible is one of many religious writings. Many coming from the same sources. The bible has many stories from religions before it. Jesus is not the first of virgin birth by a long shot. Many other texts in many other formats exist. Maybe it's because they are all from a single truth, but you yourself consider it full of man's corruption. Great source. As for it predicting the future, there are many that have done this. From Nostradamus to Astrology many sources either do this, or seem to. Some with better success. For more recent sources check out the book 1984 (it does a good job of predicting the current state of the US and "Big Brother"). Start reading science fiction for more. Many big names in Sci-fi have have predicted the future. Look up Tesla for a real world example of someone who predicted technology we are still figuring out. There are more, but I'd have to spend months with you on this one subject when I doubt you'll even take one seriously. They're not your choice of worship, so they must be heresy.

      Here again you are trying to validate your connection to God, while no one else's is valid. Unless of course they agree with you.

      You focus on wording and without trying to be sure you understand what I am saying. Then you go on a huge rant regarding a single word (like "research"). Our definitions are not the same. The words we use do not mean the same things to the other person. This is part of that perspective thing I was talking about. If you really want to share ideas and have someone like me take you seriously, that crap has to stop.

      You have lost all credibility with me by not respecting my views. You started off immediately quoting something you know I don't consider a valid source. A lot. Then started calling my way of seeing things ignorant. Then telling me (because of a word I used, when you didn't understand the way I meant it) that my "thoughts" are evil.

      Surprise twist: You're not going to convert me this way.

      Enjoy the next rant you are about to type.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      You asked in a previous comment “Why is your experience valid and mine not?”

      Since you believe “man” rather than the Bible, why would the richest “man” in America make these statements, “I think it makes sense to believe in God… “We've raised our kids in a religious way; they've gone to the Catholic Church that Melinda goes to and I participate in it” (! Why would he allow his most prize possessions (children) participate in something that he’s not in agreement? He has enough resources ($) to investigate whether or not there is a God, but chose to “participate!” You say “A higher possible higher power?” What then, a magnetic or scientific force? Explain! Have your “men” figured that out yet? Why not?

      “I’ve witnessed what others call miracles first hand. I've had many things "revealed" to me. All of which have lead me to the conclusion that Christianity, and all other religions “I’VE” RESEARCHED, are fundamentally flawed and corrupt.”

      The “revelation” you experienced which lead you AWAY from CHRIST, was not based on THE SPIRIT but “a spirit!” Again, you’re using “YOUR” mind to come to these “revelations!” Revelations from THE HOLY SPIRIT is in agreement with what you don’t believe; THE BIBLE and not something that defies! There are “gifts” that have been given by GOD and one does not have to be a “Believer” (Matthew 7:22-23)!

      When you say “I’ve witnessed what others call miracles first hand” the Bible says there would be many who performed “miracles” and don’t know the LORD; false prophets! As a matter of fact, don’t you remember this Scripture “Lord, have we not prophesied in your name…” and what did JESUS SAY? “And then I (JESUS) will profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:22-23)! Witches can “perform miracles” too but the KEY to KNOWING GOD is having “FAITH” in “HIM” (HIS WORD) not “yourself!” (“I’VE RESEARCHED!”)

      Well, here you are! More intelligent than THE CREATOR “researching” IF GOD (WORD) is a LIAR (Bible)! Why waste your time when Bill Gates (One who has more resources to “figure it out!”) has not wasted his and would not allow his most prize possessions be “brainwashed” with such “IGNORANCE?” Are you so “beneath” him?” Can’t you see anyone without any “intelligence” would not defy THE CREATOR? Research via science, man’s opinions, and/or “gut worship” (Philippians 3:19) has NEVER and will NEVER “figure out” THE CREATOR! We (man) have nothing to rely on but THE SPIRIT and THAT SPIRIT is GOD – THE HOLY SPIRIT! Whatever you think of The Bible is fine but it is our ONLY foundation to gain a “Communication Line” with HIM! Your “intuitions,” and/or “premonitions” are of GOD (James 1:17) because the GOD I serve is a “merciful” GOD for HE “rains on the just and unjust” (Matthew 5:45)!

      “How is your path to "the LORD" correct, and everyone else's incorrect?”

      This is a “SPIRITUAL” journey in which one “MUST” have “FAITH” in THE CREATOR and what HE HAS SAID! You can “tear that book (Bible) apart” and find MANY errors, but the ONE THING you can’t do is make “GOD” a LIAR (Numbers 23:19)! There is one thing we agree on, there is A SPIRIT which “leads and guides you into ALL truth” (John 14:26) because you spoke of your “premonitions!” Therefore, if we believe that, we believe that “HE” (aka JESUS) “will lead and guide us into ANYTHING truthful” about HIM and also the LIES that “man” has embedded in the book (Bible)!

      GOD’S “Mode of Operation” is tricky and if you allow “yourself” to do HIS job, you will “think” you’re right (Romans 1:28) for HE is a “merciful” GOD! In other words, you can’t “lie to the Holy Spirit” (Acts 5:3)! In Matthew 13:10-13, the disciples asked JESUS “Why do you speak in “parables?” HE replied, “Because it is given unto you to know the MYSTERIES of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.” What was given? The ONE THING “most” did not “WAIT” for; our “Communication Line” to HIM – THE HOLY SPIRIT! I don’t know if you ever KNEW HIM by not “WAITING” but IF you did, you certainly LOST the ONE THING that broke the “Line” and that’s FAITH! “Without FAITH you cannot please GOD” (Hebrews 11:6) which lead to “the creation “thinking” he’s more than THE CREATOR” (Romans 1:25)!

      “I follow my own sense of intuition and am fine with there being a possible higher power directing me.”

      You “follow your OWN sense of “intuition?” “You” vs THE CREATOR? No you are not “fine with there being a possible higher power directing you” or you would allow ONE GREATOR (THE CREATOR) do HIS JOB and “DIRECT YOU!” If you created a robot and he obtained a mind of his OWN to “follow his OWN sense of intuition,” what then? You’d either give him up or destroy! Since you’ve acquired a mind to “follow your OWN sense of intuition,” what do you think GOD has done? Therefore, how can you be “fine?” Oh yes, you’re “fine” with you but NOT WITH GOD!

      Following any religious text with the biases of others involved isn't something I care to do.”

      See, this statement is how I KNOW you didn’t “WAIT” (Acts 1:4) because you would have acquired “leadership and guidance into ALL truth” (John 14:26) and acquired “FAITH!” However, the ONLY WAY one can be “lead” by the Holy Spirit is to become “HUMBLE” and GET OUT OF HIS WAY so “HE” CAN BECOME EFFECTIVE! You “think” GOD needs YOUR help? You shame HIM by putting YOUR two cents worth in? BS! All you have to do is BELIEVE what HE’S SAID, ask HIM to “reveal” LIES in the Bible and HE will! Even if you “think” there are “biases of others involved” HE’LL let you know (James 1:5)! HE let me KNOW regarding baptism! Again, I ask, if the disciples were “commanded” to “Go and baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19), why is there not a record of them doing so in Bible? See? Man LIED but GOD “revealed!” Has anyone ever asked you this question? I didn’t have to go ANYPLACE ELSE but the Bible to find out! I didn’t start “researching” what man had said regarding who put that in and when they put it in rather relied on the Holy Spirit to do HIS job (FAITH)! After “studying” Scripture, I found NO PLACE in Bible the disciples baptized according to Matthew 28:19 and it was an “addition!” When I came to HP I found a Hubber (Judah’s Daughter) who had “researched” what “man” (The Catholic Church) had done and found it amazing that the Holy Spirit had “revealed” without my “research!” You see? HE (aka HOLY SPIRIT/JESUS/GOD) KNOWS how to do HIS job “IF” man would only GET OUT OF HIS WAY!

      It doesn’t take a “rocket scientist” to worship GOD (I Corinthians 1:26-31)! Who do you think I am? I’m an old Black 65 year old woman who has more days behind than ahead, with less than a Master’s degree, but I KNOW what I KNOW because as above HE “reveals ALL truth!” The “experiences” I’ve experienced are from Scripture and ALL can experience the same thing, “IF” they BELIEVE! All one has to do is GIVE UP ONE’S “SELF” (II Chronicles 7:14), RELY on GOD (Proverbs 3:5), and BELIEVE (I Corinthians 2:4-5; 10) ALL OF HIS WORD! If LIES exists in “the book,” HE’LL “reveal” without OUTSIDE “research!”

      I KNOW it’s hard for “man” to give up, but that’s where GOD wants us; relying TOTALLY on HIM and HIM alone! Even if you KNOW there is “tampering” with the Bible, STAND on HIS WORD, BELIEVING HE will do as HE SAID “reveal” ALL TRUTHS! Now that’s called FAITH and without it, “we cannot please GOD” (Hebrews 11:6)!

      Now, with that being said, let’s move on to your last comment. It’s not how *I” came to “a conclusion,” but what GOD SAID in HIS WORD (The ONLY “Communication Line” we have with THE CREATOR; WORD (John 1:1; II Timothy 3:16)! Well, as stated above, The Bible may be something you don’t believe but we both agree there is A SPIRIT and until one can provide a book with as many “accurate” fulfilled prophecies as the Bible we can safely say it is a book which was written by men but “inspired by GOD” (II Timothy 3:16)!

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      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      See HUB "In Response to "What I have to Lose by Believing in Jesus" which by the way is "SELF!"

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      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      “We find what we are looking for” is true and you have taken it upon yourself to look (“test the spirits”) beyond GOD (“man”)!

      I have questions: Will you please provide another book with as many "accurate" fulfilled prophecies written before Bible as those stated within Bible or are those "perceptions" also? If so, why have MOST "men" (whom you trust more than GOD) come to this conclusion? Why did the majority of believers (men) "perceive" such and come to this conclusion? Why so many of the same "perception?"

      While you "research" for answers, I will respond in detail later as I'm about to go out the door!

    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      Fair warning, I'm tired and may be less tactful than normal.

      Considering everyone else ignorant for not coming to the same conclusions, as you have, is something I find abhorrent. It is also exactly what I don't like about religion.

      Religion, like any subject, is influenced by ones own experience. In your case, you look at things through a bible (and your experiences of course). Other people look at things through another text. You look for God and find him. Others look for Allah and find him. Still others look for Odin and find him. Still others look for proof that God, Allah, Odin, Zeus, and any other deity are false and they find it. This is because our experiences color our beliefs and the way we look at everything. We find what we look for.

      "Well, I have told you what the WORD SAYS" Yes, I get it, you are the soul authority.

      Perhaps this is me doing the same thing. The one reason I don't see it that way is because as long as people don't try to convert me by telling me how little I know, I'm happy to discuss beliefs with people and be proven wrong. Mocking other people's efforts or beliefs does not convert, by the way.

      You keep claiming to know so much that others do not. You lie to yourself when you assume no one else could reach another conclusion when they experience what you have. It's nothing new, that's how this works. Those who demand one religion is right and everyone else is wrong do it all the time.

      "Your problem is as you stated, You "[I]" follow your own sense of intuition and "think" you're fine with there being a POSSIBLE higher power directing you!" Again, "man's brain" (YOU) vs THE CREATOR? Please! Stop showing your IGNORANCE!" I said I follow my own sense of intuition and am fine with the idea that it is inspired by a higher power. I wouldn't call that me vs the creator. But thanks for once again belittling me.

      Again you assume I have no connection to the supernatural. You assume I couldn't possibly be connected to spirit because of my "carnal pursuits." Just because I don't close myself off to learning from this physical experience doesn't mean I close myself off to the supernatural. I said before I've experienced miracles. I've been witness to healing. I've witnessed physical feats that are "impossible."

      "Let me ask you this: Have you "laid hands on another" and the Holy Spirit fell upon them?"

      Yes. Both before I left religion, and after though I don't see it the same way anymore.

      "Do you have Something wake you up approximately 2 hours after you posted your response and tell you to go to computer and reply?"

      Yes. These kinds of experiences are regular occurrences for me and my family. Same with knowing if someone is in danger or hurt. Feeling we need to call someone to find that person needed to speak to us. Feeling like it's a bad idea to go do something, later to find there was an accident or other bad thing we avoided because of the decision. Feeling a need to be somewhere at a certain time and catching an opportunity we would have otherwise missed. That's a part of what I was talking about when I said "I follow my own sense of intuition and am fine with there being a possible higher power directing me." The difference is that I don't insist it's granted by a specific higher power, but am open to the idea of a higher power being it's source. I suppose that means once again you call on Satan.

      "Do you have Something make others give words to condemn themselves or their beliefs?"

      If I understand your question, you are asking me if others seem inspired to show their own ignorance while talking to me. Yes. You are doing it right now. Perspective, honey. That's what it feels like when you think you're right and the other person isn't. True or not.

      As I said before, not all of my experience is from "research." Though I have to say; it's interesting that you mock the efforts of man and "research" while you type on your computer and send your message across the world. All of this talking about a book written hundreds of years ago (after inventing ink, paper, and language). Not to mention the printing press that actually printed that book, or all of the other technologies you use daily. Maybe a little respect for man is in order too. These efforts are amazing whether or not they are inspired by a higher power.

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      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      I see you've followed Scripture in ONE respect; you've "tested the spirits" but didn't allow Holy Spirit discern which one was of GOD!

      Let me ask you this: Have you "laid hands on another" and the Holy Spirit fell upon them? Now that's Something one can't get out of a "book!" Do you have Something wake you up approximately 2 hours after you posted your response and tell you to go to computer and reply? Now that's Something one can't get out of a "book!" Do you have Something make others give words to condemn themselves or their beliefs? Now that's Something you can't get out of a "book!" Man I'm talking "Supernatural" Things while your talk "carnal" things YOU have acquired doing "research" that "man" has established! I'm talking "SPIRIT" vs "man!" What IGNORANCE to even consider!

      Now you can believe the Bible is not of GOD, you do have a "choice," but from the actions I've seen manifested IN MY LIFE, I beg to differ! Don't think I'm IGNORANT enough to not know the Bible HAS been "tampered with," but JESUS told us HE "would lead and guide us into ALL truth" (John 14:26) and HE has! I can give Scriptures where "man" has "tampered with" HIS WORD and the Holy Spirit made me aware of it and I found it to be true based on what's written in other Scriptures! For example Matthew 28:19! MOST have been "taught" baptism is to be done in the "name" of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; however, father is not a "name," son is not a "name," and Holy Spirit is not a "name!" The Scriptures "commanded" the disciples do so but I never could find where they did! I knew something was wrong with that Scripture! However, if one allows the Holy Spirit "lead and guide one into ALL truth" (Versus running out "researching" what "man" has written!), HE "reveals" and the WORD of GOD testifies of Itself! One should "let Scripture define Scripture" not run out and start "researching" what "man" has said in other "books" because "trash in" produces "trash out!" GOD (WORD) is not "man" that HE should LIE (Numbers 23:19) and (although I quote Scripture) whether you believe the Bible or not, why would THE CREATOR have to?

      The baptism was given the disciples on the Day of Pentecost via the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:2) under the New Covenant in which we currently live (Acts 2:38)! When Jesus spoke the Words in Matthew 28:19, HE had not yet ascended and we were still under the LAW!

      Well, I have told you what the WORD SAYS and if you have been given power that produces actions as THE POWER (Acts 1:8), or Supernatural Power, so be it; but I know not! What do you prefer the POWER to heal the sick, raise the dead, plus other "benefits" and a DIRECT "communication Line" to GOD or "peace, love and joy" from your "research" (man)? One would be IGNORANT to "choose" the latter!

      Your problem is as you stated, You "[I]" follow your own sense of intuition and "think" you're fine with there being a POSSIBLE higher power directing you!" Again, "man's brain" (YOU) vs THE CREATOR? Please! Stop showing your IGNORANCE!

      Until you can produce actions in the Supernatural via the WORD of GOD (for there are "spirits" out there), it shows nothing but IGNORANCE "trying" to "outdo" THE CREATOR (aka HOLY SPIRIT)!

      Yes, I HATE RELIGION because look what it's done to you (and others)!

      I'm sooooo sorry!

      I pray!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      My apologies for my poor use of the word "choice". You are a shining example of why I said I wouldn't get into a scriptural debate. You are trying to convert me to your religion. You say you hate religion, what you show is that you hate other religions. What you are continuing to share is your own religion. You can call it a belief system, or whatever other label you want to give it. It is the structure of belief you are following and demand others follow because you are sure it's right. Pick your own word for how you come to it, it is your belief and you demand I know nothing because I have not come to believe as you do. Just like every other zealot I mentioned before.

      You said before not to discredit the version of the book you are using, but the thing is, no version of it is important to me. Let me say one more time. I reject the book you consider the connection to the divine as such. Therefore, no matter how much "scripture" you quote at me and throw out how I've interpreted it incorrectly, I'm not impressed. It's value to me is negligible. It's not the divine word to me. You may as well quote Poe and expect a religious reaction.

      I follow my own sense of intuition and am fine with there being a possible higher power directing me. Following any religious text with the biases of others involved isn't something I care to do.

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      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      It is not "a part of my choice of Christianity" but what is in Scripture!

      Is Christ not a Spirit? Did John 4:23-24 say we "MUST" worship HIM in Spirit and in Truth?" Well, in order to "worship" Christ, we "MUST" do so in "SPIRIT!" Now how many do that yet "proclaim" CHRISTIANITY?

      Christianity is really a "Mind" Thing or a "Spiritual" Thing and not a RELIGION! GOD is a Spirit and the ONLY way one can connect to HIM is "in Spirit!" The Buddhist worship an idol yet we (CHRISTIANS) can't worship THE CREATOR "in Spirit?"

      When I ask one to "Go Back" and "Wait" I'm asking them to "Seek HIS Face" by asking HIM or "Meditating on HIM" and asking HIM to come into their life by "filling them with HIS Holy Spirit" so they can acquire a "Communication Line" with HIM!

      I want you to look at I Corinthians the 14th Chapter! Has RELIGION taught this? Now look at verse 38 in particular! That's PRECISELY where "Religion" of "proclaimed" Christians is today for they have not been "taught" what a TRUE CHRISTIAN is! Now look at Verse 25: "And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so FALLING DOWN ON HIS FACE, HE WILL "WORSHIP" GOD, and report that GOD is in you of a "TRUTH!" Where have we seen "WORSHIP, SPIRIT and TRUTH" in same sentence? John 4:24 "GOD is a SPIRIT, and they that "WORSHIP" HIM, "must" "WORSHIP" HIM in "SPIRIT" and in "TRUTH!"

      You see? We have to "GET DOWN on our FACE" and seek HIS "anointing" before we can began to "WORSHIP" GOD because that is our ONLY "Communication Line" with HIM!

      MOST "IGNORANT" "proclaimed Christians" think singing, praying and throwing in a little "interpretive" Bible Study is "worshiping" the LORD! To this I say "IGNORANT FOOLS" (and so does Scripture; I Corinthians 14:38 and Galatians 3:1)!

      Because they "don't know" Scripture they think "TRUE WORSHIPERS" are "psycho!" Galatians 4:29 tells "TRUE WORSHIPERS" how we were going to be treated! It says "But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, EVEN SO IT IS NOW." But if they continue to "mind the flesh," Galatians 5:4-5 says "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law (flesh; "DOING" for righteousness); ye are fallen from "GRACE!" For we THROUGH THE SPIRIT wait for the hope of righteousness by FAITH."

      JESUS "overtook" Paul's body began speaking through him in Acts 9:15 (The "vessel") and we have been "commanded" to "Follow me [Paul] as I also follow Christ" (I Corinthians 11:1)! Now who does that? RELIGION (Satan) has taught MOST "The Pauline Doctrine" which led MOST "Away from our Communication Line" with GOD! I still haven't gotten an "understanding" from "proclaimed Christians" what they think the Books of the Bible AFTER ACTS are for! They speak as though they were for "them back then" rather than where "WE CURRENTLY LIVE" which is under THE NEW COVENANT!

      I was going to began with the following but THE SPIRIT told me otherwise:

      Christianity is NOT a RELIGION "according to Scripture!" Sure, "man" has lumped it with what they "perceive" as RELIGION but is NOT what Scripture says!

      The term "Christian" was first used by unbelievers at Antioch to identify "Christ Followers" or "Disciples" (Acts 11:26)! The term was used in a "derogatory" manner in Acts 26:28 in which King Agrippa said to Paul "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" for it was not the "religion" of the day (As it is not TODAY but everyone "proclaims!")!


      I have so much to say to you but I would have to write 1,000 HUBS!

      I pray Ephesians 1:17-23!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      You say you hate religion but everything you're saying is all part of your choice of Christianity.

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      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      "I don't worry much about sounding crazy to people. That's all perspective." Neither do I dear heart, neither do I!

      Again, I didn't ask you to "follow me," I asked you to "Follow JESUS!" Have you been "anointed with the Holy Spirit" or are you getting "interpretation" from "man" and perceiving it as "revelation" from GOD? From your responses, it is of "man!" If you would have "WAITED" (Acts 1:4) you would not be in the predicament you're in today! If you would have had a leader that "discipled" you, you wouldn't have been left alone to try and "figure it out on your own!" With the "guidance" of the Holy Spirit, your "anointed" leader would have "taught" you how to serve the LORD "according to Scripture!"

      That's my point! I HATE RELIGION for it has caused too many to "Lose their souls by losing hope" in something "taught" via "man's interpretation" that showed no evidence of JESUS being ALIVE "today!"


      Now, you're at the point, since there was no "physical evidence" that JESUS is ALIVE "today," because the "leader" was not "anointed" either, you had to go and "research" to see if it was actually true and in doing so, found numerous pieces of "evidence" (from "man") the Bible is a LIE; thereby justifying your unbelief!


      If you still believe the WORD of GOD is true, BELIEVE THIS: JESUS SAID in John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send "IN MY NAME," he shall teach you ALL things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." DO YOU BELIEVE? Do you think HE was only talking to the disciples or them "back there in the ancient days?" Hebrews 13:8 says "JESUS CHRIST the same yesterday, TODAY and forever!" Then why don't you BELIEVE? Who is a BETTER TEACHER than the Holy Spirit (aka JESUS)? Why didn't you "WAIT" (Acts 1:4) then you would have had "PROOF" and would not have had to "figure it out on your own?"


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      Yet again, it is your interpretation of one of many religious texts throughout history. Here you are insisting that your interpretation of that text is the only one that is correct. Furthermore, your interpretation of that one text, the correct path. You want me to follow Jesus because you've found him to be true.

      Why is your experience valid and mine not?

      How is your path to "the LORD" correct, and everyone else's incorrect?

      I said before I didn't want to have this conversation again, because I've spoken at length with many people who have their own view of the bible and insist theirs is the only way. Many people. Like you have been saying, each talks about the corruption of man, and how their religion is "the closest best path to God". Each one saying that I must accept Jesus as my savior. Each one saying mostly what you've said but having their own little twist on certain things. Quoting certain parts of an ancient text they believe in. Ignoring certain parts that won't suit them. Ignoring many other texts out there. Their minds were full of many things. Many revelations from self study. Their minds were also closed to many other lines of thinking because, Satan. "It's not part of what I've come to through the bible, then it must be Satan." I have no desire to go back and forth with you over what the bible says and what it means. That is what I meant. You've come to what you believe, and short of finding revelation from the bible, you are not open to new thoughts. Your interest lies in converting others.

      I've taken the time to pray. I've felt the sensation of being connected that comes from a religious experience. I've witnessed what others call miracles first hand. I've had many things "revealed" to me. All of which have lead me to the conclusion that Christianity, and all other religions I've researched, are fundamentally flawed and corrupt. That includes the texts those religions are based around. The bible itself (the King James Version most of all) being the one I've studied most. I don't believe any religion, or religious icon, to be the one path to enlightenment. You'll probably tell me that is all Satan confusing me. Again, why is your opinion valid, and billions of others not?

      I don't follow Jesus, because enlightenment, truth, and love, are not something I have found exclusive to Christianity. I found less of love and more of fear and hate within the exclusivity inherent in religion. Yes, this includes Christianity.

      Last I must say this: We both may sound crazy to someone else. Truth sounds crazy to one who believes in lies. Opinion often sounds crazy to one who does not share it. If you told someone a hundred years ago about the technology we would have (besides Tesla), they would think you were crazy. Likewise if you correctly foretold what our society will look like in a hundred years, you would sound crazy. I don't worry much about sounding crazy to people. That's all perspective.

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      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      That's just the point! It's not for you nor I to try to "understand" but the Holy Spirit "leads and guides us into ALL truth" (John 14:26; 16:13) which is "revelation" from Jesus Christ! Galatians 1:12 says "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the "revelation" of Jesus Christ." You see! When one (preacher) who is filled with the Holy Spirit "plants the seed," it's up to you (and HOLY SPIRIT) after being anointed, to "Search the Scriptures to see if those things are so" (Acts 17:11) and they will be "revealed" the SAME unto you for the Holy Spirit has ONE MIND! Philippians 2:5 says "Let THIS MIND be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." "THIS MIND" indicates there is ONLY "ONE" MIND of Christ Jesus!

      I'm not trying to persuade you to "follow me," but to "follow JESUS!"

      I don't rely on a book either but THE SPIRIT of the LORD! Of course, the Bible is my foundation, but the Holy Spirit supersedes what "man" has tampered with! HE does "lead and guide one into ALL truth" and I can testify to that! Let me tell you something HE "revealed" to me but it's not written verbatim in Scripture but witnesses Scripture! Get this: "MOSES was the Messenger for the LAW under the Old Covenant as PAUL was the Messenger for GRACE under the New Covenant!" Is that not TRUE? I've NEVER heard anyone teach/preach on this Message and I'm 65 years old! It just "came to me!" That's the kind of relationship ANYONE can have with GOD when they "WAIT" for the "HELP" of the Holy Spirit! MY GOD! It's the BEST THING that ever happened to me including my children and husband!

      I pray ALL find out what I'm talking about! I know it sounds "crazy," but it's TRUE!

      Ephesians 1:17-23 I pray "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: [and that] The eyes of your understanding be enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in heavenly places, Far above principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all."


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      I agree with a some of what you're saying about religion. It seems to be largely about gaining followers and bringing in money, and/or keeping control.

      However, you just went off again about your own interpretation of a religious text. Many people read and interpret that particular text and come up with their own idea on what it means. Every one I've talked to who demands it is the only course to God (usually through Jesus) demands their own interpretation is the only way to go. That's a part of why I never went back to religion. That's a big part of why I don't have any desire to use a book as a path to spirituality. There are numerous religious texts. All of them hold some measure of wisdom. All of them also have their own version of BS that seems to have been societies bias at the time it was written. All that said, If I don't agree with their interpretation, it's always because I "don't understand."

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      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      The FIRST thing RELIGION should have done was "FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF JESUS" when discipling sheep! Didn't JESUS teach HIS followers daily? Is it not our job (as teachers/preachers) to "Feed HIS Sheep" (John 21:15-17) with the "rightly divided WORD" (II Timothy 2:15) of GOD?

      How can one teach if they have not been sent? I can't say if whoever you were taught under was sent, but from your misinterpretation of Acts 1:4 which commanded us to "WAIT" for the POWER (Acts 1:8) of the Holy Spirit as being "Patience," they didn't "understand" Scripture!

      Romans 10:13 is quoted quite often in RELIGION which says "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Easy enough huh? If you read "the letter" (II Corinthians 3:6) you would "think" just calling upon HIS name you will be saved! Wrong! Did they read the next verse?

      (v14) "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? BELIEVE what? Believe there is a GOD? Wrong! BELIEVE "ALL" of what HE HAS SAID is TRUE for salvation! This means "STUDYING" (II Timothy 2:15) "rightly divided WORD" in "chronological order" to "understand" (Proverbs 4:7) the TRUE meaning which can only be "revealed" with the HELP of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 16:13)!

      The Verse goes on to say "...and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?" One needs to be "discipled" by a person who has been "filled with the Holy Spirit" (chosen) in order to be able to "understand" HIS WORD and be given "knowledge" of what to say to disciples! The "anointing" is available to ALL, so don't think *I* have the ONLY "anointing" which gives "revelation" in HIS WORD but Scripture says of those who are, they are "with ONE accord!"

      If you look at Scripture, even when the apostles appointed men to oversee business in the Church (the least of matters), they appointed those "filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 6:3) how much moreso one's soul?

      The Verse goes on to say "...and how shall they hear without a preacher?" One is NOT a "Spiritual leader" (preacher) UNLESS he has been "filled with the Holy Spirit!" The Holy Spirit is our "communication line" to GOD (Galatians 1:12)! Without Holy Spirit the leader is only a man with man's "interpretation" of Scripture and as II Corinthians 3:6 says "THE LETTER KILLETH!" This is why I HATE RELIGION! They just run out and start "interpreting" GOD'S WORD without HIS HELP and have created over 33K different denominations in the US alone! All with different motives for going out but it's usually $!

      My cousin has an appropriate saying, "Some are called, and some are sent, but some just Got up and Went!" lol Which really ISN'T funny because look at the souls they have LOST!

      I HATE RELIGION because they have NOT followed the example of CHRIST when teaching a disciple! They just tell people to come and join, shake their hand and tell them "You are now saved," teach them their "interpretation" of Scripture, and leave the rest for you to "try" and "figure out!"


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      As I said before Norine, you are demanding that your interpretation is the only correct one. Feel free to reread what I've said and what you've said and see if you can identify that.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 17 months ago

      Scripture says we are to "prove" our belief with WORD (II Timothy 3:16) and not (personally) debate (Isaiah 8:20)! As I previously stated, It's time ALL "STUDY" (II Timothy 2:15) Scripture to KNOW TRUTH in HIS WORD and not just go along with what we've been "taught!" You see how you "interpreted" WAIT (Acts 1:4) which confirms you have never received TRUTH?

      Satan's "playground" is one's mind and he has you EXACTLY where he wants you "thinking" TRUTH is "...a "conversation" I care NOT to have again." He's elated! Agreeing with the thoughts he's placed in your mind (Ephesians 6:10-12) you will never "hear" TRUTH!

      As you may have noticed, I give Scripture for everything *I* believe therefore, it is not *me* talking or "giving my "opinion," BUT GOD! I never "discount others" but give WORD (GOD) who "Discounts" their TWISTED BELIEF! If I didn't, I would not be a Child of GOD! Scripture tells us in Leviticus 19:17 "Thy shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise REBUKE thy neighbor, and NOT SUFFER SIN UPON HIM." II Timothy 3:16 says "All scripture is given by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS." You see? If one is a Disciple of Christ, it is his responsibility to "Teach all nations" (Matthew 28:19) and "CORRECT" by "PROVING" with HIS WORD and if they don't "There is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20)!

      I'm just following orders ("If you love me, keep my commands" John 14:15) from THE COMMANDER but if you wish not to hear, we all have a "choice" (Joshua 24:15)!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 17 months ago from USA

      Norine, when I read your previous comment on this article, I thought "here we go again. Another religious debate in which the other person is the soul authority on the bible." I was all set to start a back and forth. I was heading out the door, so I didn't have full time to respond, but figured I'd ask what I did.

      Now that it's the end of my day and I've had some time to think it over. I have no interest in getting into it.

      You see, I like to play "devil's advocate" as it were. I enjoy putting ideas out there that inspire thought in others. I do this with Christians and atheists alike.

      You, Norine, have shown repeatedly (on the comments of the question this article is in response to) that you are most interested in sharing your opinion and discounting others. I would happily discuss it if I felt the person I was talking to was actually listening. As is, I feel you will only respond to "prove me wrong" with your own version of what a book says.

      That's not a "conversation" I care to have again.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 18 months ago

      The KJV! Now don't try to discredit the "version" used, because no matter what "version," Holy Spirit will "reveal" TRUTH which is Something that has not been "taught" in RELIGION!

      What "version of Christianity" do I ascribe to? How many are there? If JESUS SAID "No one can come to the Father BUT BY ME" (John 14:6), there is only ONE WAY - "JESUS!"

      It's time ALL get to KNOW HIM! It's time TRUTH be told! It's time for ALL to "Search the Scriptures to see if these things are so" (Acts 17:11)!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 18 months ago from USA

      Norine, if you want to have a conversation like this, I need to know which version of the bible you're bashing me with. It'd also be nice to know which version of Christianity you subscribe to.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 18 months ago

      KT: Who taught you? First, when Scripture says "WAIT" in Acts 1:4, It is telling the disciples to "not leave Jerusalem, but "WAIT" for the Power from on High or the Holy Spirit which came in Acts 2:2! Your interpretation of WORD in this one Scripture, confirms you were not taught the "rightly divided WORD" of GOD! It's no telling what else they "twisted!" Apparently, they didn't teach you "laws" governing healing, prosperity, peace, joy, happiness, freedom, etc! LORD HAVE MERCY! Look at the results! I cry!

      I read your response to Eric and the first thing I must disagree with you on is this statement "Anyone really considering it knows Christianity is supposed to be about loving each other, not excluding each other." This RELIGIOUS teaching defies Scripture! Jesus said "No one comes to the Father but by me" (John 14:6), so apparently there's only ONE WAY - JESUS! Now, we have to understand what that ONE WAY is and the WAY to do that is to READ HIS WORD to determine how HE "loved" believers vs unbelievers for there is a BIG DIFFERENCE! When Satan entered one of HIS disciples HE told his disciple (Peter) to "Get thee behind me SATAN" (Matthew 16:23)! Does this show what RELIGION has taught to be "love" or "politically (religiously) correct?" THIS IS "JESUS" SAYING THIS! Again, when JESUS saw "unbelievers" selling in the Temple (Matthew 21:12-13), what did HE do? Did HIS actions reflect "politically correct" "love" for them that has been taught by today's RELIGION? How then can you say "We must ALL "love" one another?" I have given WORD time and time again that JESUS DID NOT LOVE UNBELIEVERS BUT "CORRECTED" and most times HIS actions did not "appear to be" "politically correct" as in Matthew Chapter 23! In this Chapter, HE called the Scribes and Pharisees "Hypocrites," "Fools," and once "snake!" Why then would you allow "politically correct" RELIGION deceive you? If we are "Christ Followers" (Disciples), we "Follow CHRIST" for HE was our example and HE "excluded!"

      You stated "The doctrine, as is typically "interpreted" by us humans, doesn't often allow for such complete acceptance of others, while at the same time preaching that acceptance is what we should strive to achieve. When we really open ourselves up we can't help but notice these issues. The question then becomes "what do I do about it?"

      Now, we're back where we started: You we not taught to "WAIT!" Scripture is NOT to be "interpreted by humans!" John 14:26 says the Holy Spirit "will lead and guide us into ALL truth" and not we ourselves (Proverbs 3:5)! John 4:23-24 says "They that worship HIM "MUST" (Did you hear "MUST?") worship HIM in SPIRIT and in TRUTH!" That's why it's imperative that we "WAIT" for HOLY SPIRIT "guidance!"

      NO! But "politically correct" RELIGION has taught MOST the actions of the HOLY SPIRIT (Flopping around on the floor like a fish out of water or however HE appears to man to "seem" UNNATURAL!) are "demonic and/or mystical!" Guess what? They just cut off the only "communication line" one has to GOD!

      Let's look at Scripture to see how the disciples appeared to act on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came. Acts 2:2-4 "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues (What?) like as of FIRE (What?), and it sat on each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with OTHER TONGUES (What?), as the SPIRIT gave them utterance!" OK, so a "wind" hit them, "FIRE" sat on them, and they spake in "other tongues?" How in the world can one appear to look "politically correct" if these things are happening to someone? As with RELIGION (the Devil), the unbeliever saw this and said (As RELIGION says "demonic" and/or "mystical" today) in Acts 2:12-13 "And they were all amazed, and were IN DOUBT, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others MOCKING said, THESE MEN ARE FULL OF NEW WINE!" It's the SAME WAY TODAY! RELIGION has taught MOST to lose their "communication line" to GOD by teaching the HOLY SPIRIT is something that is not "politically correct" consequently they have NO HELP which was Promised in John 14:26 to receive "revelation" of what the WORD truly means (understanding) and "read the letter" (II Corinthians 3:6) "interpreting" Scripture in error!

      When one "follows Scripture" and "WAIT" then ALL will be "WITH ONE ACCORD!" How many times do you see that phrase in the Book of Acts? SEVERAL! When "With One Accord" (Because one has been filled with the Holy Spirit who has ONE MIND!), we "accept" each other and become disciples who's mission is to "teach all nations" (Matthew 28:19) or bring other sheep into the Fold! If they're not of the "Fold," it is our responsibility to "teach" or "correct" (II Timothy 3:16) as JESUS in Matthew which is according to WORD!

      That's "what you do!"

      If one "feels like they can't leave the religion that's been a part of their life," they don't worship JESUS but RELIGION! John 21:22 "...Follow thou me" and if we follow JESUS, we will do as HE gave us an example (Matthew) in Scripture whether it "appears" to look "politically correct" or not!


    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 18 months ago from USA

      Norine Williams: I started to respond on a point by point basis. Then I realized I didn't really feel it. I felt the most important thing to address with you was one line. I can't (and won't) speak for Ericdierker, but I can respond for me.

      "I'm sooooooo very sorry no one taught you guys what the WORD says!"

      By "the WORD" I'm guessing you mean the bible. They did. Of course they did. Every Sunday. And family night on Monday. And holidays when we discussed the reason for each holiday. We lived our lives immersed in the gospel. Immersed in the "word of God." That's the point. That was always the point. Every christian religion claims to be the one true path to God. Each one using the bible as it's starting point. We were always encouraged to read it ourselves, and regardless of reading it ourselves, we would get together and discuss passages and what they meant.

      You also talked about us not being taught to wait. I was. The lessons shared with me often spoke of waiting and patience. Patience not just in life, but patience to the end of life. Patience is one of the virtues and exhalted above many others by my teachers.

      This article isn't my complete life story. It doesn't even scratch the surface on my experiences with religion, let alone the rest of life. My point here is; I found peace. I found it once I left religion behind me. It's easy for me to get angy when dealing with religion, but really I'm glad for the experiences I had with religion. They opened my eyes to so much perspective. They have shaped a life story I feel quite good about. I'm happy about my experiences with religion and I'm very happy I left religion behind.

      The greatest point to this article is that I felt restless and wrong while taking part in my religion. I felt empty. It wasn't until I left that faith behind me that I felt truly fulfilled.

    • kwade tweeling profile image

      kwade tweeling 18 months ago from USA

      Ericdierker: Thank you. I'm glad it helped provide some understanding.

      If I may be so bold, I have a guess for at least some of the reasons you feel similar: One of the fundamental flaws of organized religion is the team attitude within any major group of people. The idea that anyone not part of the group are our enemies inevitably comes up. Anyone really considering it knows Christianity is supposed to be about loving each other, not excluding each other. Within the confines of a church that says those not part of said church are lost to the greatest things God can give, it's hard to feel like you're allowed to love those outside. So it's hard to follow a fundamental tenet of the religion because of other fundamental tenets. The doctrine, as is typically interpreted by us humans, doesn't often allow for such complete acceptance of others, while at the same time preaching that acceptance is what we should strive to achieve. When we really open ourselves up we can't help but notice these issues. The question then becomes "what do I do about it?"

      I see a lot of people in your position right now freaking out. They feel like they can't leave the religion they've been a part of their whole life. "If it's not true, I've wasted my whole life on a lie." I disagree with that idea. Frankly, I think that's a great sign. It means you can move closer to what you really believe. Whatever that is. Your whole life has lead you to where you are today. How could that be a waste? You've learned so much, you've lived, loved, experienced, taught others, and now, you're ready for the next step. How is that a wasted life? Even if what you believed was a lie, it helped you get through key things in your life. It helped you understand things in a way you otherwise may not have. Isn't that a good thing in so many ways?

      I think you hit the nail on the head with the brotherhood of man comment. Anything that leads us away from caring about each other, I feel, defies everything we seek from religion.

    • profile image

      Norine Williams 18 months ago

      I'm soooo sorry!

      Have you guys ever heard of "DEAD RELIGION?" Unfortunately, it was RELIGION you were worshiping and NOT GOD!

      I'm sooooooo very sorry no one taught you guys what the WORD says! The ONE THING that "political correctness" in RELIGION makes one lose is a relationship with GOD and when one worships RELIGION vs GOD, this is the result! I "literally" cry!

      Listen, we now live under the New Covenant and JESUS talks to us "the same" way (Hebrews 13:8) HE did to those "chosen" on the Day of Pentecost! RELIGION does not teach this for it is not "politically (or religiously) correct!"

      Acts 1:2 "Until the day in which HE was taken up, AFTER THAT (Did you hear "AFTER THAT?") HE (How?) THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT had "given commandments" unto the apostles (us) whom HE had "chosen!" What RELIGION teaches this? JESUS further "commanded" us in Acts 1:4 "...they should NOT depart from Jerusalem, but "WAIT" (Did you hear "WAIT?") for the "PROMISE" of the Father, which, saith HE, ye have heard from ME!" Where did we "hear from HIM?" We "heard from HIM" in John 14:26 which said "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will SEND IN "MY NAME" (Did you hear that? JESUS talking! So the Holy Spirit's Name is JESUS!), HE shall "TEACH YOU "ALL" THINGS..." Why then did we not "WAIT?" Why do you think we get discouraged, disgruntled, become an unbeliever, lose faith, feel empty, question if there is a GOD, etc? We didn't "WAIT!" We were not taught by RELIGION to "WAIT" for the HELP of the HOLY SPIRIT!

      I'm sooooo very sorry!

    • Ericdierker profile image

      Eric Dierker 18 months ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Very nice insight. I would figure those holy roller, evangelical. my mission to convert you, types would gain a lot by reading this. I did.

      I wonder why as a devout Christian, ex-preacher with happy well adjusted Christian children I feel a lot of the same things as you. Makes you reconsider this brotherhood of man concept.