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What is the Issue with Moral Relativity? The Issue with Religion and Morals!

Updated on October 1, 2015
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Religion and Morals

We all know what religious fanatics love to use in arguments, "Through god we have morality, why would you have morals without him?" We hear it time and time again, most of them not even realizing what they imply with that sentence, but we will get to that later. We can all admit most religious holy books, canonical religious figures, can have a good message and meaning behind what they say. We see some examples in the bible, love your neighbors, don't judge, don't steal, murder, or envy. While all those, and those lessons are all agreeable and all well and good, nobody is arguing with that. Here is the issue we take with the argument, why do you need a god to justify doing such things?

Let's tackle a subject of debate, the Ten Commandments, a source of moral justification for Jews and Christians alike, hand carved and handed over to Moses, by "god himself". Ignoring the first 3 Commandments further express gods inferiority complex, the ladder commandments provide excellent ways to live by. Don't envy, don't kill, don't lie or cheat, we can all agree those are objectively good lessons. I wouldn't like to be killed, I don't want my property stolen, so obviously shouldn't do stuff like that. While the commandements are all fine and dandy, you know what don't see on that list, RAPE! You would think something so damaging to someones psyche, and scaring mentally and physically would make the cut. I guess it was the 11th commandment or something right? You would think that, it only makes sense that an all powerful god would punish such a heinous act. WELL YOU'RE DEAD WRONG!Infact in the bible, the punishment for commiting such a act is simply paying off the womans father like the piece of property she is and then wedding her. Yes!! You heard right!, you pay her father, then marry her.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

Doesn't sound like a way of living I would like to be forced on me by the government. This horrible act is not only endoursed and swept to the side in the bible, it is not considered at all important enough to make the commandments, all because it didn't reach the same stature as things like Keeping holy the sabbath day, or not worshipping other gods. Gods ego needs stroked way more than the saftey and well being of other humans.

Now while the bible does not necessarily promote rape, it does just give it a pass. However the bible, being written in such a MANcentric time, with MALE leaders, and a stunning lack of any female political figures. We see the misstreatment of women often in the bible, and continue to today. These people just see it as fine, simply because their holy book says it to be true. Not as if a higher being of omnipitonce could see the future and see what prominent people women become. Places like the middle east will stone a woman to death for driving, and they must be covered from head to toe, not just their own women, they try to force it on visitors and tourists also. Now to those of you that may be think to yourself, "I don't see this in america", let me tell you a little story about myself.

I am getting married very soon, and me and my fiancee were seeing counseling with her pastor, she is of course christian. He had asked us "Do you guys believe in a 50/50 marriage, or one that the bible teaches?" He explained that the bible teaches that a marriage needs to have a male leader, that can make all the decisions and be incharge of everything, and told us that the woman could take care of the kids, cooking, laundry, and finances. He then told us a story about how his wife got a wonderful job that she loved once, but because he wanted to move somewhere else and start a church she had to give it all up. For what? She isn't nearly as happy, he admits it. However the point of his story was to show us, she listened like the little submissive wife should.

Now not only completely underminding womens achievments, and making very light of rape. Nowhere in the bible does it outline raping a man or a child, both are acceptable as far as we know. Now we haven't even gotten to slavery yet.

Now slavery in the bible is seen as completely justifiable, it even outlines how to treat your slaves if you have any of them. Now we all know now that slavery is wrong several years of hurt, pain, and civil rights movements have showed us, man is equal, no man should own another. Now you might argue, this waas written for the time where slavery was okay, people didn't exactly have jobs all over the place. To that I say, yes people working to pay off a debt did happen often, it is known as indentured servitude. While I woud still argue that is wrong, it does go with the time becauuse of the lack of jobs factoring in, which I will also rebuttle, god sees the future, HE SHOULD KNOW!

We obviiously can seee that these holy books, while holding many good lessons and values, are absolutely riddled with completely absurde claims for what is moral and immoral. It is utterly rediculious how people can jutify trying to force their morals on others, while their own holy book contains completely out of date ideals.

Morals Don't come from religion

Now let's all hold off for a second and follow me for second. For those religious people out there, I want you all to imagine something up with me. Take your religion, and subtract any god from the equation and pretend for a ssecond that your religion is a farce, however you don't know it. Imagine what the world would be to you simply run by religious morality, without any real influence from a deity. Now many people believe that our only sense of morality comes from the existence of religion. Of course those same people actually believe their deity exists, thus justifying the moral code emplaced by the religious heirarchy. This is how atheists veiw the world, that there is no real justification behind the acts of religious beyond their pressumption their deity exists.

Now continue to entirtain the idea that in this hypothetical a god doesn't exist, however religion does. Now you have people trying to propagate their points of views, and influence their moral code onto the followers without any real justification.

To say our morals exist because of religion is down right insulting to even suggest. As an atheist myself I see the idea of religion as just a means to control people, by threatening eternal hell fire. Yes many religions consist of many good, ethical, and moral, ideals, philosophys, and sentiments; however the argument that all our morals come from religions of the past and present is so eaasily refuted. Taking the influence of a all powerful deity out of the equation, only leads to influence. The mere existence of different morals, and points of veiws, shows the falsity of the statement as being self evident. Simply because of different opinions. Not only from the non-religious, but the various religions, and even the different denominations of the religions.

Simply because I think killing is bad, and the bible says killing is bad, or that I think stealing is wrong and the bible says so also, does not mean I get my morals from the bible. It is simply what was best for society, both at the time and or what continues to be best in the present, for society that determines agreeable moral standards.


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Morals from gods

Many people, usually of the Abrahamic Faiths, assume all of our morality comes from god himself. This is completely different from the religion one, because to believe this one, one must assume that a deity exists and decides to let us know what is good and what is wrong. One mustt assume that all humans are encoded with the exact same sense of morality and ethical code from the start, and truly knows what is moral V.S. what is immoral.

Now right out the gate there are already numerous issues with this very concept to assume we are born with the same morality. We grow up in different households, in different parts of the world, and are all influenced and taught different ways thoughts and feelings. To assume god codes us with morality, is just ignoring all the factors of ones situation and influence. As if people in a small tribe in the middle of nowhere has the same moral code as christian filled america, they just choose to ignore god, and do what they want.

Now here is the thing, depending on the type of christian you ask you'll get various explanations to this. Free will, which okay I guess we can choose to be moral or immoral, but that doesn't at all explain the fact that I feel in my heart gay marriage is perfectly moral. If it was coded into me wouldn't you think I'd feel at the least alittle dissmay? If you ask some other christians they'll explain that satan is the one influencing your immorality, he makes you want to do bad things and makes you like it. If that is true then why would I feel remourse if I killed someone? Why do I feel hesitation to steal, or feel bad when lying? If satan was really influencing me and he was making me like it wouldn't I feel over joyed to murder or steal, would I not be able to lie with ease and a smile o my face. I don't simply because god doesn't write in morality. Not just because he doesn't exist, but because the existence of objective morals again provide the simpliest and the easiest refutations against the very notion.


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Moral Objectivity

The big question I have, and the soul reason for this article, is simply what is wrong with objective morality?

Why must the religious claim my morals are written on my heart by god, or that they are simply influenced by religion, this isn't what I would think on my own. Assuming that everybody iis pure evil, and needs influence like god and religion in their life to function in society is cynical at best. We determine morals based on what works best for society, both forr those around us and for ourselves. We are inherently tribal creatures, and since the dawn of man, have been inclinied to do what is best for others because it helps us too. I don't burn peoples houses down because I don't want it done to me, I don't murder because I don't want to be killed, I don't steal because I like my stuff and would very much like to keep all of it. How hard is that to grasp. Societal moralic norms inherently grow in any society, of any kind. Because it is what is best for the group and the individual.

Now when it comes to objective subjects, like gay marrige, freedoms of any kind, abortion, or even public stoning to death, or slavery for that matter. All of those either banned by the biblle or endoursed. Why is having different opinions a bad thing, why is objectivity wrong? Why must there be an absolute standard or agreement as to what is right or wrong? Having opinions generates discussion, generating discussion gets attention, getting attention, creates action, and action creates change. That change can be for the better or for the worse, but you never know unless a discussion is generated by an argument of different opinions in the first place. The more we discuss something the more we will learn about it, and grow to be more informed and make more informed decisions and things, which hopefully creates better living, better conditions, more jobs or wealth, or even safer proccesess. But it all has to start with the objective opinions.

It was once not so bad to murder, and not wrong to own a person, or rape is more than paying the dad. Now we realized we don't need to be so violent, nobody is a lesser person, and rape isn't cool and is traumatizing. Those changes were bred by the arguments, discussions, and objective opinions and moralitys of others.

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    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Johnny, you said: "If you think religion is incapable of creating progress for this world and a person, who was raised with religion, is capable of making the world a better place, then doesn't religion have some sort of credit in that discovery?"

      I never said that, I didn't imply that, you just assumed it.

      Science and religion are two very different things - Science is a METHOD of study, Religion is a set of beliefs.

      "Why are all the religionists crying about being persecuted?" - This is a question that I asked because religionists tend to "believe" they are being persecuted when they are NOT being persecuted.

      Atheists, agnostics, and "heretics" are the ones being persecuted.

      You really do need to improve your reading comprehension skills, and stop assuming things.

    • profile image

      Johnnystein 2 years ago

      Austinstar. If I offended you, I am sorry. I don't, however, think my powers of observation are limited, but that may just be my opinion. Nonetheless, I do apologize.

      You said: "Secondly, "Louis Pasteur (You mentioned him as an atheist.)" I did not mention him as an atheist, he is a scientist. His religion or lack thereof is of no consequence."

      Well, it was kind of implied. If you think religion is incapable of creating progress for this world and a person, who was raised with religion, is capable of making the world a better place, then doesn't religion have some sort of credit in that discovery? You cannot negate the impact that a person's spiritual upbringing has on them. Especially if they were taught by Jesuits and learned to read from the Bible.

      You still seem to be stuck on the notion that science and Religion are opposing forces. Have they had their division? Yes, but they no more negate each other out than English Literature and Religion.

      Austin said: "You seem to keep implying that "morals" are dictated by religion and they are not, because we humans had a moral code long before religion ever became a "thing"."

      I never said that. I actually said the opposite. Just because you continue to repeat it over and over again doesn't make it true and never will.

      Austinstar said: "The church still persecutes "heretics", "atheists", "agnostics" and even scientists for bringing reality into focus and trying to change our "morals"."

      Lol. That is ironic, because in another comment you said: "Why are all the religionists crying about being persecuted?"

      Did you forget about that? lol. Talk about power of observation! I didn't miss that, did I?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Sheesh, you called me a "Mr" when I am clearly a woman. So, I have to question your powers of observation.

      Secondly, "Louis Pasteur (You mentioned him as an atheist.)" I did not mention him as an atheist, he is a scientist. His religion or lack thereof is of no consequence.

      You seem to keep implying that "morals" are dictated by religion and they are not, because we humans had a moral code long before religion ever became a "thing".

      Religious leaders ACTIVELY seek to hold us back as a society. They condone "morals" based on what musty old books say. These books have not, and actively refuse to, keep up with today's society and scientifically PROVEN facts, figures, and practices.

      The Sun does NOT revolve around the Earth, Rape is morally condemned in today's society, as is slavery, but it is still NOT actively banished by religion. Homosexuality is NOT an "abomination", it is two people that love each other. There are literally hundreds of "moral" issues in religion that have held back society and still do so to this day. The church still persecutes "heretics", "atheists", "agnostics" and even scientists for bringing reality into focus and trying to change our "morals".

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      Johnnystein 2 years ago

      Btw, My coffee hasn't kicked in yet. It just kind of clicked that you said:

      "The people you named were not scientists with the possible exception of copernicus and newton.

      The rest were advancing society more than promoting religion."

      But earlier you asked me: "Your turn - name the religious leaders who have pushed us forward..."

      I made it clear that I assumed you meant "religious practitioners" instead of "religious leaders" since you, yourself did not list any "leaders" technically.

      I didn't know we were having a competition for who had the most scientists.

    • profile image

      Johnnystein 2 years ago

      So even though they were not scientists, they did help the world advance, but you are right. You did mention scientists. I am glad that you can acknowledge that people of religion have advanced society. You are making progress.

      Mr. Austin said: "Why are all the religionists crying about being persecuted?"

      I don't know. Maybe you should ask those that cry that. I am not sure what that has to do with our discussion, so let's try to stay on topic, shall we?

      Back to my list of scientists;

      You said: "The people you named were not scientists with the possible exception of copernicus and newton."

      So Galileo isn't a scientist?

      Well, here are some more:

      Robert Boyle

      Louis Pasteur (You mentioned him as an atheist. This is surprising because he was Catholic, as stated by his Grandson. Some assert he not religious, but it has never been confirmed and that doesn't mean atheist. The fact is that he was born and baptized Catholic and never, from my knowledge, relinquished that, so to suggest he is an atheist is a personal opinion at best.)

      Werner Heisenberg

      Kurt Godel

      Frances Collins

      Gerhard Etrl (Nobel Prize for Chemistry 2007)

      William D. Phillips (1997 Nobel Prize for Physics)

      As you can see, it is not Science versus Religion as you make it seem. One does not negate the other. They are not mutually exclusive.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      You are right. The people I named are scientists. Not religious leaders. The people you named were not scientists with the possible exception of copernicus and newton.

      The rest were advancing society more than promoting religion. There hasn't been any "new" discoveries in religion for thousands of years unless you count crackpot cults.

      Why are all the religionists crying about being persecuted?

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 2 years ago

      Johnnys you bring out some good points ,

      But I read up on Buddhist, so confusing, they believe in God, and then they do not believe in the creator GOD. They believe as written here in partThe Buddha never met a Jew... And because of this, he never said anything about the One God of the desert.

      There is also nothing in the teachings of the Buddha that suggest how to find God or worship the god's of India, although the Buddha himself was a theist (believed in gods), his teachings are non-theistic.

      The Buddha was more concerned with the human condition: Birth, Sickness, Old age, and Death. The Buddhist path is about coming to a place of acceptance with these painful aspects of life, and not suffering through them.

      Please be clear on this point... The Buddha is not thought of as a god in Buddhism and is not prayed to. He is looked up to and respected as a great teacher, in the same way we respect Abraham Lincoln as a great president.

      He was a human being who found his perfection in Nirvana. Because of his Nirvana, the Buddha was perfectly moral, perfectly ethical, and ended his suffering forever.

      Does that mean that every Buddhist in the world is an atheist?

      " I have met a lot of Buddhists who believe in God. I have met a lot of Buddhists who don’t believe in God... And a lot of Buddhists just don’t know."

      This was written on the subject , the point is

      This a personal believe and faith as, well.

      The point is people have their right to believe

      As they wish ,

      But again it is wrong to demand people to believe as you.

      Because you say it. Here is a Belief that is divided among Itself in divisions, we as many are very sure and not devided at all.

      There is One God The Father over all.

    • profile image

      Johnnystein 2 years ago

      Austinstar said: "Take a step back and imagine there is no god. You will see that we don't need a god or gods in order to be good humans. There are lots of good and "moral" Buddhists that survive quite well without a god or gods. Why can't you see what is right in front of your face?"

      Mr. Austin, you are right. If humans didn't believe in gods then we would still have figured out how to get along and be good, but that is not what I said. I never said we needed religion to be good. But you can't negate the fact that religion has existed and people have gotten their morals from it. We can imagine all we want. I am speaking of facts. Religion exists. Most people in this world practice religion, so it can be deduced that most people get their morals from religion.

      You said: "Remember how the cave men used to get along together while hunting, mating, and raising children?"

      No I don't remember and neither does anyone else. lol

      You said: "Your turn - name the religious leaders who have pushed us forward.."

      I see your trickery their by using the words 'religious leader'. Since the people you named were not 'atheist leaders' I don't feel that I should be held to a different standard.

      Nicholas Copernicus

      Sir Francis Bacon

      Galileo Galilei

      Rene Descartes

      Isaac Newton

      Martin Luther King

      Gandhi

      Do you want me to go on?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      And yes, Morality and Society and societal laws have been around FAR longer than religion. Remember how the cave men used to get along together while hunting, mating, and raising children? You can even observe morality in animals, especially the higher primates and elephants. Yet you probably believe that they have no religion or no "souls" either.

      Take a step back and imagine there is no god. You will see that we don't need a god or gods in order to be good humans. There are lots of good and "moral" Buddhists that survive quite well without a god or gods. Why can't you see what is right in front of your face?

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Charles Darwin, Albert Einstien, Carl Sagan, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Marie Curie, Louis Pasteur, I could look up a few hundred perhaps a few thousand scientists that have pushed us forward.

      Science pushes us forward. Religion holds us back or gets whole groups of people involved in wars.

      Your turn - name the religious leaders who have pushed us forward...

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 2 years ago

      Thank you for making a clearer point , I am happy you are open to look more into this subject, I surly hope you will find truth. Thank you again.

    • John Colarusso profile image
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      John Colarusso 2 years ago

      K and T I am working on my way to become a evolutionary biologist, and a physicist. Hopefully so I can learn and better know as much as I can about these subjects. Both because I am interested and so I can have a better understanding and argument for my case, or in light of any evidence of anything, change my opinion to see fit to the better understanding. It is very aparent you don't understand how these things work, just because something is stunning doesn't mean god. If it was there would be no need to study it, and with tht thinking where would we be now, and where would are society be going.

      You seem to not understand how all of this stuff works, or at the least, have a minimal uunderstanding.˜

    • profile image

      Johnnystein 2 years ago

      This was a well thought out and well written Hub!

      I don't believe that morals ONLY come from religion, but I do believe that morals mostly do come from religion for those who practice a religion. Key words in those two statements are ONLY and MOSTLY.

      Morality, as defined in 'Ethical Theory and Business', is concerned with social practices defining right and wrong, whereas Ethics is the study of what is right and wrong.

      While nothing in life is 100%, if most of the people practice religion, such as in the United States (83% Christian http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90356&page=1... Because of this, it can be said that most people get their morals from religion, even though we cannot distinguish a difference between what percentage of that morality comes from society or directly from religion.

      I would also have to differ with the Hubber that suggested religion has held back humanity, while science pushes us forward. This would be a correct statement if both science and religion were mutually exclusive, but that is not the case. I think anyone that thinks that a small percentage of non-believers is what pushes mankind on, is keeping their head in the sand due to an extreme bias.

      What most people get mixed up is the definition of Morals and Ethics.

      Nothing in life is 100%, but if morals means the

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 2 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      " I find it mind blowing how throughout the ages, a small number of enlightened minds have been the ones to bring progress and carry humanity further, and the majority constituted by millions and later billions of people have often shown no gratitude or appreciation nor made any effort to contribute to the advancement of humanity.

      I think this is the case today in America, and most other countries too. The greatness of the country is in large measure based on the scientific, technological and cultural advancements brought to the world by the few, which have carried America to greatness, even though the mostly religious majority has brought little to no contribution and shows no appreciation for the scientific minds that keep America in a leading place. They even go as far to do the opposite and sabotage the education process.

      Imagine what a world it would be if all people would value knowledge and science and would be eager to contribute to progress."

      From a friend of mine who posted on FB today. I couldn't write a comment better for this topic, so I'm using this one.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 2 years ago

      The thing is all that man says is not facts, and everything man believes should not be as the only

      Known truth, a man life span is to short to know everything and prove everything,

      Advancement in decades proves many things like DNA our blue prints.

    • Oztinato profile image

      Oztinato 2 years ago from Australia

      The problem is that major atheist leaders eg Dawkins do in fact say our conscience is indeed a product of religion. Atheists have been saying this since Freud. So where do you fit in? Nowhere.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 2 years ago

      You see they mean nothing to you .if that is not your proof you are entitled to believe what you want.

      But this is what you are saying as example, a car hits your car in the parking lot, but you are in the store, you come out and some one writes the details and gives the plates, so you tell the officer

      No this is not proof because I did not see this myself, no I do not believe this person saw what happened , so the office listens to your doubts , and he just leaves. Because you have closed down the possibility of finding the offender

      Then you are stuck getting your car fixed or paying a higher insurance rate. When the offender is liable for your damages.

      The point is if you are already negative about the subject then you will not welcome the postive in truth.

    • John Colarusso profile image
      Author

      John Colarusso 2 years ago

      And no no no, just claiming empires and stuff thaat are already historical fact, stuff we know actually existed, being in thee bible doees not mean it is proof. I am saying there is nothing that happened in the bible proven historically. Just becaus the bible mentions empires or leaders or whatever that we have evidence of actually existing, does not mean it is proof.

      Also i never heard of those letters until now, so i am looking into them and researching but so far from what I can tell they prove nothing in your argument either. From what it looks like it seems to be someone during some time right before the babyloanian empire falls. Seems like the tried attacking jeruselam, so what. Obviouly we have evidence of Jeruselam existing, it is still theree today, unfortunatly babylon not so much.. That was the time everyone invaded each otheer all the time back then, we have evidence of that. But they don't prove anything, jus that this guy could write on clay tablets.

    • John Colarusso profile image
      Author

      John Colarusso 2 years ago

      I am sorry but you simply aren't providing anything to support the notion that god needs to exist for morals to exist. In your bible it states that the ones who claim there is no god can't do a single good thing, then how come when I donate to the poor or help old ladies or try to be nice, oh oh and all those times I volunteered. Those don't count. I assume it is interpreted as no good deed exists without god. But literally that is a farce.

      and leet us not just ignore the big elephant. I claim any god numerous gods, all gods, not just christianity, although I do use it as a stepping stone and as a point of referance.

      What about the other gods, obviously you think your morals came from Jehovah, but wwhat about muslims, they technically have the same god as you. they are called the abrahamic faiths for a reason. He is just an alternate version of Jehovah. Do you consider them immoral?

      For the record I like to see as the Tankah as the original book

      The Bible as the weird completely different sequel Cause the author was trying to shock us

      and the Quran is the weird alternate universe fanfiction

      alittlle light hearted but I guess it fits

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 2 years ago

      As I continue to read your comments you mention no history of proof , of what is written, I do not know why you have not furthered your research on the subjects you list as no proof, there is plenty , I will give you a few to start, tbe British Museum holds proof of the Lachish letters, writings before

      JESUS birth BCE, also just discovered was ruins of

      Of a an old empire that is listed in the bible. Our history talks about Alexander the Great, he is listed as aworld power.

      As well. There is plenty but it is up to you to accept as truth.

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 2 years ago

      As an example morals are supposed to be for our protection, but time and history has shown that humans

      Have gotten away from the pure since of what it is suppose to be , I do not doubt what you say in what has been found as hypocrisy in religion, but at the same time having no restraint or a good concious could not be good either from people who are not christian. You have people who claim do wrong as a Christian and people who are not do wrong as well .

      And yes history has recorded the many religions, the many pagans, of beliefs, no history of success there either. But what we have

      And experienced is the break down of what morals are suppose to represent for the good of all humans.

      I do not support all christians who claim,

      just because I follow christ Jesus.

      all christian are not all alike, it would not be fair to say and judge all alike.

      Because there are false christians as well

      And so it could be said of nonebelievers as well

      The world is in bad condition based on the history

      Of so called christians and none christians

      And really who can measure a sin when we did not create the word but God did.

    • John Colarusso profile image
      Author

      John Colarusso 2 years ago

      That doesn't really help your case. Laws change, morals change with time.

      And what do you mean history has recorded every instense without god and shows it fails? America is over 70% christian, another 12 or so perceent being identified as other religions, while the rest are non-religious or just other. In this country we have had a mass shooting on average this year every 23 hours. I know an entire church of evangelical apostalic christians, all of them do immoral things especially by todays standards. The hate the see in the impure is an unjustifiable immoral thing now.

      According to what we see as moral today, the canon of the bible is very much immoral. Slaughtering the enemies of the jews, taking their women, and plunderingg their riches, they were no better than barbarians.

      Europe is much much less religious now. And what do we see, less crime rate, less issues in society, less murder, less theft, less rape, and less bigotry.

      Nothing is recorded to prove any corilation whatsoever with or without gods precense. And besides that there is no evidence anything in the bible is historical fact, so if you consider the times with god more moral through that, there is simplyy no evidence. There is no proof of jewish slavery in egypt, no proof of wondering the deseert, no proof whatsoever of Joseph being like the Pharaaoph. And if he was as close to him as the bible claims, hee would have a tomb, thaat tomb alone would be proof of biblical truth. But it doesn't exist, or if it magically does it hasn't been found yet.

      So in conclusion, morals don't exist because of god, they exist because we are soceity

    • Kiss andTales profile image

      Kiss andTales 2 years ago

      I believe morals are good for any human, not to murder benefits every human right, protect you from the serial killer's, as those that rob what protection do you have to hender a thief? taking your hard earned money rather a white collar blue collar , or just a thug on the street ,you name. It when some one breaks these laws they quickly want justice, because they broke a moral law. These laws effect our loved ones as well of sex crimes and offenders ,yet we would not want to say we do not need laws of guidance when there is a pedifiers, in neighborhood , moral laws is a safety measure with penalty of violations which hender the wrong doer. People raise there children on right and wrong values, many because

      They do not want to displease their God, which also benefits other humans,

      What I think is the problem today people say they do not need God to make moral decisions but

      That has been tried and proven, and has. Failed.

      We are seeing the results of independent rulerships, living without God’s laws over centuries, the killings of human under powerful rulers, and pagan beliefs. History has recorded all results with out the interference of God. To the point that people believe he is not their.

      Like a Teacher who steps away from her class is very aware of what is going on. Even listening when one thinks they are alone.

      We are never alone and all things will be accountable.

      So rather people believe in their own moral law or God' s who existed way before we came on this planet it will still stand when humans leave .

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