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Why Rome Is Not Daniel's Fourth Kingdom

Updated on February 19, 2020
Ms Dee profile image

Deidre has a Masters in applied linguistics and translation for her 20 years overseas, then she worked as a certified provider of the MBTI®.

God reveals to the prophet Daniel visions that are similar with and correspond to what he reveals later to the Apostle John, in the book of Revelation. This is a summary comparison of the visions seen by Daniel and John about, in particular, the identity of the last world empire.

There are fine scholars who differ greatly on the identity of this last world empire, and I do not expect a summary to be perfect. However, I offer this summary and my sources for you to examine, yourself.

There is much left unsaid in Scripture so as to cause the many differing viewpoints, and the last empire seen in these visions is not clearly identified.

Prophet Daniel's dream

Source

However, what we do find as prophesied in Daniel and Revelation about the identity of this empire does provide us some important details.

Kingdoms prophesied in Daniel

Daniel interprets in chapter 2, first, a dream then King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, had. He then has his own dream from God in chapter 7 that is the same as Nebuchadnezzar's, but with different imagery.

Combining these passages with yet another vision Daniel has in chapter 8, we see four kingdoms described. The identity of the first three are clear.

Daniel sees four kingdoms

Kingdoms
Passages in Daniel
Identity
First
2:38; 7:4
Babylon
Second
2:32, 39; 7:5; 8:20
Media-Persia
Third
2:32, 39; 7:6; 8:5-8
Greece
Fourth
2:33, 40-43; 7:7
?

Daniel's statue of 4 kingdoms

Source

A rock struck the statue (2:34-35)

Source

There is a fourth empire that Daniel sees, but it is not clearly named. Most have thought this empire to be Rome, as it rose up following the Greek empire. The thought is that the ten toes of iron and clay (2:41) will be some kind of ten-nation revived Roman Empire in the last days before Christ returns.

10 things about Daniel's fourth empire

In considering whether the identity of this fourth empire is Rome, first, here are ten things said in Daniel and Revelation about the last world empire.

1. Both Daniel and John see the last empire - The following passages all refer to the same last world empire:

Daniel 2, the 4th kingdom (legs of iron, feet of mixed iron and clay)
Daniel 7, the 4th beast (terrifying, iron teeth)
Revelation 12, 13 & 17, a king or kingdom

2. Power source - Its power, throne and authority come from Satan.

3. Strong - It is a kingdom that is strong, terrifying, dreadful, crushing, trampling down, breaking in pieces and devours the earth.

4. Different - It is different than all the other previous kingdoms.

5. Mortally wounded - It has had a seeming mortal wound but then heals, causing all to marvel. It was, is not and will come. It is called an eighth king, though it comes from one of the previous seven.

6. Spawns 10 kings - From it 10 kings arise—not a strong union, as some kings are stronger than others.

7. Another king - A king that arises overthrows three of the 10 kings, and receives power and authority from the other kings. He speaks blasphemous words against God.

8. Rules world - All the world is then under this king’s authority and worships him and Satan.

9. Conquers the saints - This king then with the other kings makes war on the saints and conquers them.

10. Lamb conquers the kings - The Lamb, “one like a son of man”—like this rock pictured stricking the statue—conquers these kings and sets up an everlasting kingdom, ruling all the nations of the world together with the saints.

Beast with 7 heads & 10 horns

Source

10 reasons why the fourth empire is not Rome

There are ten reasons why the last kingdom is not the Roman Empire.

1. John sees the last empire (the beast) as identified with the Greek (leopard), Persian (bear) and Babylonia (lion) empires in Revelation 13:2. However, he does not also see Rome as a fourth empire in his vision, even though the Roman Empire had already begun 158 years previous to John's writing.

2. In Revelation 17:10, the the 6th king or kingdom that was still in existence at the time of John’s writing is obviously the Roman Empire (63 BC – 476 AD). However, he does not associate the 6th with the last terrifying empire in Daniel’s vision, but rather he associates it with the 7th kingdom.

3. In Revelation 17:11, the last kingdom is the 8th one. If this were the Roman Empire resurrected, then Rome would have had to be the 7th kingdom and not the 6th.

Successive empires

Source

The Islamic empire

Source

Summary points related to Islam

  1. Islam 'devours' geographically the previous three kingdoms.
  2. Islam beheads many who refuse to follow it.
  3. It is a empire with a clear division between two sects.
  4. A revived Caliphate could fulfill the prophecy in Revelation.
  5. Islam is bent on worldwide conquest, as the previous three kingdoms were.

4. Daniel 2 is a revelation of what would later happen to Babylon. Maps of the Babylonian, Media-Persian and Greek Empires—like this on the right—show each succeeding empire includes the previous one, expanding further than the previous empire. However, Rome did not include all of the previous Greek Empire.

5. To break in pieces all four kingdoms at the same time in Daniel 2:34-35, they would have to overlap geographically. The Roman Empire does not fully overlap the previous empires. However, we see in the next map at the right that the Islamic Empire overlaps the previous empires.

6. In Daniel 7:7, “devour” means not only conquer militarily, but geographically, culturally, religiously and changing languages. (Islam, however, does all this.)

7. In Revelation 20:4, those who had not worshipped the beast or accepted the mark had been beheaded. Rome did not do this, but Islam beheads those who do not convert.

8. Daniel 2:41 says the last kingdom will be one that is divided. After Mohammed, his empire was divided into what is today Sunni and Shia. Even today, like in Iraq, we see much of the violence is between these two groups.

9. The Muslim Empire led by the Caliphate conquered the Byzantine Empire in 1453 but, as the Turkish Ottoman Empire, it ended in 1924. If it revives, it could fulfill Revelation 13:3; 17:8, 11.

10. As the empires before it were bent on worldwide conquest, so is Islam and it is doing this on the largest scale ever. Also, see Revelation 6:2, where the first Seal of a horse and rider goes forth to conquer.

Do you think Islam will become the fourth kingdom?

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Rome did not fully conquer Greece

Rome left the borders ot the Greek Empire largely intact. The Greek language continued as the dominant language of the Roman Empire, and the Romans did not destroy the Greek gods. They even embraced them and gave them Latin names. We see that the Greek Hellenistic culture continued under the Roman Empire. Rome did not "crush" Greece as depicted in Daniel's vision of the fourth empire. The fourth empire of Daniel's vision must be another empire besides Rome.

The Islamic Antichrist - Joel Richardson

Why Islam is the antichrist kingdom--Walid Shoebat

© 2012 Deidre Shelden

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    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      9 days ago from Texas, USA

      Amen. May God the Father's will be done. The worst is soon to come, without repentance of the nations.

    • profile image

      Israel 

      10 days ago

      I knew America would suffer greatly for it's Israel [the beast] relationship but I am so sad for your suffering. It is far from over for you I think? The only safe path is distancing & whether you like it or not Lockdown. Sure it will cost you money but the alternative is...well you can see.Sadly America is owned by the money worshipping Jews[they are not all like it].Rothschild majority owner of your Reserve Bank they paid the Debt for after WW1 & it was not by chance the 'ASHEN HORSEMAN' attacked New York -something I told others about in July 2001; but who would believe you ?The financial heart of the World is owned by the richest people in the world-the ones ALL the world is borrowing from NOW! ......I live in the

      Great Southern Land of 'the Holy Spirit'. Our entire nation' s death toll is 104 to date. We have a leader who is by the people & for the People.Money is not his GOD fortunately.My thoughts& prayers are with you.......Time of silence[Rev8 ] & antiChrists rule over the Holy People should finish after mid 2021? & the two last appear shortly after I believe.......Baruch Hashem in Yeshu ha Moshiach...

      HE LIVES....Lord of Lords King Of Kings.......Shalom, Israel

    • profile image

      Israel 

      13 days ago

      Ten points addressed;-

      1.As I have explained earlier Dan2 is old israel & Dan7 the reemerging nation that treds down ALL around it[history].Rev 12 is a child born when the man of sin comes to power- he exists! The woman is kept safe during his 14yrs kingship & is protected from his rage by mother earth.Rev13 describes the son of perditions origin -this All covers Binyamin Netanyahu[666- old hebrew Gematria] Rev17 describes Jerusalem drunk with the blood Jesus witnesses who are murdered there-Rev11;8.

      2.This is the anti Christ throne -satan's ABYSS [Rev11;7] is found there.

      3. The history of Israel crushing All around it & the fact they dominate world money & trade. Corona virus is breaking the countries around the world financially , who are they borrowing off- Rothschild's !

      4. Different to ALL kingdoms -it is GOD's chosen people who break the Covenant so losing His blessing - He lived amongst man here but left when they failed to keep His Law & Statutes & when He sent His Messiah Son they murdered Him.

      5. the 7th head was mortally wounded[Rabin] who it was thought murdered by Palestinians but turned out was killed by [rumoured] minor MOSSAD operative[Netanyahu 8th head/ littlehorn/son =BIBI. The Beast [Israel] walked on when no action was taken against innocent Palestine.

      6.History of Israel ;some kings[prime ministers] were far greater than others. !0 kings arise before the man of sin[3 repeat twice ;he is the 8th head/little Horn/son = BIBI.

      7.Between offices ;WAS 1996 WAS NOT1999; 3 kings trodden down 1. was preparedto share the daughter of women[Jerusalem as combined capitol[removed] -Barak 2. went to the coastlands to direct war against Palestine fell 2nd day[stroke] removed 3rd day -[vegetative]Sharon- Perez for the second time since Rabin's assassination is caretaker king[rev17;10 not elected nor Governing but IS] 3. taxcollector is king- Olmert formerly treasurer. The man of perdition returns without the honour of kingship -Livni wins election -ant Christ asked to form minority Govt.

      8. The elect [christians] are fooled & revere the Beast[Israel] It came from the divide kingdom of old Israel[the man] as only 10 of Jacob's sons took up land in the Holyland -Joseph died on the way there his family settles with Benjamin's & Levi lives amongst ALL as Rabbis. Daniel 7 describes the Beast that reemerges tredding down all around it & controls the World's Money & Trade.

      9.The Jews who dominate modern Israel do not acknowledge any of Jesus's saints or GOD's Messiah Son- they will learn if they listen to His two last prophets - those that do not will perish sadly. The first[He came to] will be the last to accept Him. Pray for a large remnant that listen!

      10.Christ will return to set up His millennial kingdom which will be led by the child of Rev 12. The Lord will I believe step back to return in 1000yrs [when the site of Jerusalem cools after it's nuclear destruction & for the final conflict which is already won!] - with the New Jerusalem.

      This how the servant of Jacob sees & interprets the Lord's Revelation .....Baruch Hashem .....HE LIVES!

    • profile image

      Israel 

      3 weeks ago

      Bearing in mind I do not know the month day or hour would suggest your northern hemisphere spring 2024 -2016 covenant + 7yrs January 2023 plus 13mnths [man of sin has struggled with Govt 18 mnths but has been caretaker only 9th April 2019 -18th May 2020- 13mnths] -February 2024 + 'blessed be he who attains the 1335th day' 45 days - April maybe 2024? No man will know! ofcourse & I don't but the shoots will be coming forth at this time as Jesus said & I have high functioning mathematical brain ;well I used to before demetia! I will answer the ten points above soon -why it is not Rome but Israel.....not happy about it mind !....Maranatha

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      3 weeks ago from Texas, USA

      Actually, I've just recently come across a brilliant study and analysis of the book of Revelation by Brenda Weltner. Access to it is both through youtube video channel under her name and her book just come out on Amazon, Kingdom of Priests. I highly recommend her as having been guided by God's Spirit as to the timeline Daniel 9:27 and 12:11-12 refer to. I am just amazed at all the 'dots' her analysis has connected as to God's great plan!

    • profile image

      Israel 

      3 weeks ago

      Sorry should be August 2020 not July . must be dementia! ....Cheers !

    • profile image

      Israel 

      3 weeks ago

      Something for your opinion. Netanyahu 3 months before what I think was fulfillment of the first half of last week complete -Jan 2016 covenant made-July 2019 1/2 week - he entered into his caretaker king period until 18 May 2020.So would the first half of the week completion be 3 months after this- July 2020. If so Dan9;27 should kick in? Oh for eyes on the ground! 1290 days 'blessed is he who attains the 1335th day'-Dan12 ;11-12 !?!? If so then 2 last prophets 30 days later? Please your considered thoughts . ....Shalom

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      5 weeks ago from Texas, USA

      Yes! True End Time events are progressing. At the same time Christ's Kingdom is drawing closer and closer. These are things that must happen to wake people up, according to the Lord's plan. He is in control and will use all this for His purposes. Thank you for your prayers. Shalom!

    • profile image

      Israel 

      5 weeks ago

      My dear lady I am watching with immense sadness at America's divisions. I pray you will be reunited in Christ otherwise your society is in serious trouble . True END TIME evil is behind this I feel!...Baruch Hashem ..Keep safe.....Praying for you ALL !

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 weeks ago from Texas, USA

      Hmmm, watching with you! Blessings

    • profile image

      Israel 

      7 weeks ago

      Dan 7;8 'another came up a little horn' - Bibi = the little horn/son .....Shalom.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 weeks ago from Texas, USA

      Interesting, yes, we will see. Opening up here hasn't looked to be too early. All still well here, thanks! Blessings!

    • profile image

      Israel 

      7 weeks ago

      Now I see what is meant by Rev10;6 .Effectively Netanyahu has not formed Govt in the last almost 18 mnths. He has of today apparently & he will be in charge for next 18 mnths , so that brings us again to the second half of 2021 when I believe to time of silence finishes. Then' there shall be delay no longer'. We will see? Just when you think you understand it God throws another curved ball.Still can not see a new Temple before the anti Christs removal? And then the last two will come? The delay is the reason I think the last week will be more than 7yrs [the break in the middle of it] if it indeed started with the renewed covenant in January2016? Boy it would good to have eyes on the ground in Israel. Hope you are still ALL well but I think your govt is opening up a bit early; still we will hope for the best. Yours in Christ Yeshu BaruchHashem .

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      2 months ago from Texas, USA

      Good to hear low number of victims here. Actually, the official number in my state is 220, whereas the news reports almost a thousand because they include cases with preexisting conditions. Yeah, tracking will show just how much it really has spread and therefore how really few get sick. Thanks for the heads-up on late next year! Safe in Jesus! ;-)

    • profile image

      Israel 

      2 months ago

      We truly are blessed here less than 100 victims to date. Don't know anybody with the virus so far & have fairly wide variety of acquaintances Despair when I see America. Texas must be a fairly spiritual place. Correspond with a few Christians there. ,Just hoping for the best for you ALL! Try to prepare your family for the second half of 2021 both spiritually & physically it is going to be a rough ride I feel. Tracking will not tell you anything just those diagnosed & probably now immune & safe ;those not - undetectible. I'm old doesn't bother me too much - just worry about the kids. Keep your safe distancing only safe measure...Return Blessings ...Maranatha

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      2 months ago from Texas, USA

      All well here, thanks! Yeah, some pushing of tracking/tracing here too. Trust you all are well there. Blessings in Christ Jesus.

    • profile image

      Israel 

      2 months ago

      666 man looking pretty wobbly! - how are you? Hope Corona not too close......Down under they are really pushing social control phone app now....Baruch Hashem in Christ Yeshu.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      2 months ago from Texas, USA

      Interesting! Watching May with you ;-)

    • profile image

      Israel 

      2 months ago

      Woke up a couple of nights ago again thinking on time times & half a time. What if the anti Christs first term of Govt is part of the 14 yrs he will rule over the Jews? So out I go to my trusty day counter site. 14yrs with this included is up at May coming. I guess it is wait & see.Hmm!...I don't go to sleep thinking about these matters they just seem to come ....Shalom.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      2 months ago from Texas, USA

      Oh my! Yes, be alert! The beast system of the world is seeking control of all ;-).

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      2 months ago from Texas, USA

      OK, but know that I also think prophecy can have several interpretations and fulfillments. ;-)

    • profile image

      Israel 

      2 months ago

      Having just written to you Govt 'down under' is announcing a new app. for your phone to track you so they can ring & tell if you are in contact with someone with Corona Virus. Social control here it comes with a friendly spin! BEWARE ! Voluntary so far! .....Firstly it will tell only if the person is diagnosed - most probably don't know they have got or have had it! Next it leaves ALL your personal information exposed through your phone & internet. They say when this is over they will delete the capability -it will be TOOOO late by then -you will have been hacked. I wonder how long before it will be compulsory -will they threaten to turn off your phone & internet ? Social control -here it comes?..........Baruch Hashem.

    • profile image

      Israel 

      2 months ago

      Another night some years ago now 'I want to read on the establishment of the ancient kingdom of Israel' about a week later 'Now understand Daniel 2' & was touched:-

      Under Rome was a divided kingdom of ten toes [divisions] .This was ancient Israel because only ten of old Jacob's sons took up land in the Holy Land - Joseph died on the way there & his family settled with Benjamin's People. Levi's family took no land of their own but settled within ALL of the tribes as Rabbis. Out of the Potters clay [Judah -remember Jesus is the potter ] comes the stone cut that becomes the mountain that fills the world ! - certainly did not emerge out of the Roman Catholic Church as some falsely say because it did not exist when the stone was cut ! This takes you the emerging Beast in Daniel 7 after they were scattered in 70 a.d. So some more for you to investigate. I'll be keeping you busy & saved by truth I hope ! I hope when I write to you I make sense -plain & straight forward? Prophecy is meant to be understood simply. If there is anything in Prophecy that you consider me worthy of answering please say?........Maranatha Shalom in our Lord Jesus.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      2 months ago from Texas, USA

      Interesting! Watching with you. Maranatha!

    • profile image

      Israel 

      2 months ago

      Daniel explained;- When I was told in 1996 the man of perdition was Netanyahu, Yeshu bid me to read Daniel 7; then, on the history of the emergance of modern Israel which I did. A week later He came again & said'Now you understand Daniel 7' & touched on the forehead . Here is what I knew :-

      The lion with the eagles wings[ United kingdom & USA ]one animal after WW2 alliance were torn apart when Eagles wings sided with the Bear [USSR with the torn out 3 ribs -Estonia, Lithuania & Latvia] against the Lions [UK] wishes to talking the four headed leopard [Lebanon, Syria, Jordan & Egypt] into allowing the annexation of part of Palestine for the nation state of Israel. The United Nations passed the motion with one dissenting vote- the Lion. The UK[lion ] was made to walk on it's own two feet as the sole policeman for the first 12 months [1947-48] until Nationhood Official being constantly bombed by the Stern Gang -forerunners to modern middle-east terrorism........ This given me by Yeshu .......Shalom -my walk is long but far from finished. Netanyahu will be removed of the control he has over Jesus Family on 30th March 2023 ;time ,times & 1/2 time = 14 yrs from his 2nd term beginning .......Maranatha.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      2 months ago from Texas, USA

      Amen! :-)

    • profile image

      Israel 

      2 months ago

      Some years ago shortly before a Christmas during one of my afternoon daydream naps a story was given me [not Biblical] - "my name is Yeshu- Jesus [not Yeshua-Joshua] & when I arrived 3 men [kings] came seeking Me at the back of an Inn in Bethlehem . Seeing my earthly father Joseph looking down on his wife nursing a new born child said ' we have been following His Star is the Messiah here?' The father pointed down to the newborn & said in his native tongue ' Yeshu Ha Meshiach' translated 'there is ; the anointed one' -- JESUS CHRIST ;so a name was born in which GOD would show His Loving Glory & our Hope!...........so when He returns people will look up pointing to the East & exclaim ' JESUS CHRIST' -

      ' there is the anointed one' ! .........a nice story of hope!.......Shalom.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      2 months ago from Texas, USA

      WOW!

    • profile image

      Israel 

      3 months ago

      Many years ago during my conversion/salvation I walked in a garden [a dream] with the one I have already mentioned. He described in detail what He suffered for me/us. It moved me to tears -horrific! Sometime later Mel Gibson's 'The Passion of Christ'was released. How dreadfully accurate it was !......Saw the statistics for America today 'Oh Lord' I pray for the children , young & old !.... ! hope & pray for you ALL ! In His Love .....Baruch Hashem...AMEN.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      3 months ago from Texas, USA

      Thank you, and amen!

    • profile image

      Israel 

      3 months ago

      I & my families best wishes at this most most blessed time ; pray for those who are suffering at this time & those that have not come to the LORD .Time is increasingly short . Baruch Hashem .......servant of Jacob called Israel

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      3 months ago from Texas, USA

      Thank you so much for sharing where you are in your faith and walk, crackers for Jesus! Love that :-) You are a beautiful witness for our beautiful Lord Jesus, Yeshua. He has a wonderful marvelous purpose for you that will be revealed at His chosen time. Hallelujah! Shalom.

    • profile image

      Israel 

      3 months ago

      I pray you are right! It will only be faith that saves you .HE LIVES!!!! In July 2001 I went for my annual check up. My Doctor is like me Jewish but not practicing- a truly good man but with no faith.He asked me [I have a reputation for foresight- I tell him he should be baptised fairly regularly -'if there was anything coming I could tell him to convince him to do so' . This was the 3rd time [the first was two years before the birth of our oldest son that my old wife was unable to bear - told him he would still born but come to life after an hour -it was so- the 2nd 2 years before our 2nd son- who would be born with chord entanglement- nothing through it for months they said but born whole ;no problem - impossible but it was so] I was to give him a sign .I replied 'you adulterous generation you are forever seeking a sign'. He rolled his eyes & smiled- 'should have known you would say that'. I said OK 'before the first half of September has past it will come on the wings of destruction & strike at the heart of Israel'! He asked where? 'Three places that maybe', says I . 'The capitol [at the time Televiv ]; the spiritual heart Jerusalem or the part my family worships[I am head of one of the richest Jewish families in the world ; or was; Christ stepped in & blessed us, so from then my branch was banished ] the financial heart ;New York - the part of it they own'. So it was to be sadly . I am not surprised New York is at the fore front again in this tribulation. There so you know a little more about me! I have walked in a garden [sleeping but vivid] with Yeshu many times since then- He has made plain to me I believe what He wants me to do for Him. It will not be pleasant unfortunately. I am Isaiah 44;1-8 & it will start Isaiah 46;11. I am just another crazy old Jew who believes Jeshurun & I have a mission........We will see soon enough.! Whether you put this up on the sight or not I leave to your discretion -Maybe I am just Crackers as many have told me. Just wanted to tell you where I am at in my FAITH & WALK....P.S Yeshu is not good looking but amazingly beautiful.... .....Maranatha Shalom dear lady.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      3 months ago from Texas, USA

      Thank you, Israel. Yes, the great tribulation is about to start and, yes, soon enough! America is not repenting as a nation of her many evils, like abortion, so must receive judgment. However, I know that the Lord God will raise up the innocents and also His army to help those who become repentant when judgment falls. All will know soon that He is God of all creation. Maranatha! Shalom to you and your loved ones.

    • profile image

      Israel 

      3 months ago

      Just wanted to apologise .Jumped in too quickly, we are not quite in the Woes but the Great tribulation of Rev7;14. So you see I am very human but don't worry it will come soon enough! Sadly it looks like America is paying too higher price for supporting the Beast -Israel. It is a shame Trumps bestie is Netanyahu . I do not believe it will go well ? The main thing is though people like yourself Jesus will keep safe. I feel for the innocents that might suffer. I am old & just think children are everything of God's purpose ..... bless you....Maranatha Shalom

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      3 months ago from Texas, USA

      Good for me too! Yes, MUCH worse to come :-( but it must be.

    • profile image

      Israel 

      3 months ago

      Thank you. Enjoy this period of peace. America is suffering enormously I see with this tribulation -our prayers are with you.I believe the last 2 prophets will be put in place 2020? but wonder how they would travel there with the lockdown -only by divine intervention I suspect ! My doctor rang this morning to organise flu shots for our upcoming winter down under . The first thing he said to me was 'I remember you telling me of this event two years ago . I thought you were crackers .I'm sorry you were right ! '. I told him 'it was nothing to be glad or pleased about. I am sorry it has come. Sadly after this short time of peace much much worse is to come !' It is good to talk to someone who is removed from my presence to get another point of view. Bless you for that ....Shalom Maranatha .....Israel.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      3 months ago from Texas, USA

      Yes, I bet you wish you were there, I'm sure! I'm sorry that I am not very good with dates, but I know others are have been told this year, 2020, is VERY significant. Also, there is this about the 30th I have read:

      3/28/20

      Prophetic Word

      “You must keep your eye on the day called 30. March comes and it goes, but it does not end without signs that give clues to glory. Then comes the month called April. What takes place has been required to move swiftly. Many things are stirring in the atmosphere and the spirit realm. The signs will be from the ones who sing gently and bring a new song. Be sensitive and stay focused on the leading of the Spirit. For a battle takes place, for a war shall be won.”

      https://johnnatale.wpcomstaging.com/prophecies/

    • profile image

      Israel 

      3 months ago

      Like your opinion on this time times & 1/2 time dream of mine. I have had it twice both different both on 30 March but 11 years apart , both indicating 2023 a.d. as maybe significant year ? Can you think what may be significant of 30 March other than the fact it was also the Date of the man of perdition returns without the honour of kingship.I do not know if you have other people who are spiritual Christians who have some intuitions? I am watching for the 2 last prophets & whether the 2300 sacrifices have stopped. Wish i had eyes on the ground in Jerusalem.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      3 months ago from Texas, USA

      Yes, very very close!

    • profile image

      Israel 

      3 months ago

      Last night - another bad sleep & another way to see Time, times & half a time .At Endtime God measures in an hour - 3.5 years ; the a pointed hour etc - ' how long[ the Holy People] they will be given into his [the anti Christ's] hand. Interesting think on this......One hour [3.5] X one hour & [plus ;+] 1/2 hour = 3.5 X 3.5 + 1.75 = 14 years . So from when he returned to power 2009 + 14 = 2023a.d. which again the same year as the original way [2016 plus the tribuation of 7 = 2023a.d.] I thought of it.. Now how long to shatter the power of the Holy People ? - still do not know the month, day or the hour in our time as the Bible says but the year I think yes ..well may be ?. The Lord moves in mysterious ways ;just wish He would let me have a good nights sleep! We truly are very very close .. 2 last prophets very very soon !....Maranatha....... I look up each night at the beautiful Southern Cross which flies over my house each night & simply wonder at God's amazing glory.....Shalom.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      3 months ago from Texas, USA

      Wow, woe indeed! Thank you, and may our Lord God keep you and yours, as well. Rapture is after revival never before seen on Earth, brought in by tribulation, I believe.

    • profile image

      Israel 

      3 months ago

      Fact : in January 2016 the Pope was invited to the Great Synagogue in Rome by Netanyahu to renew the Covenant of Old as God's representative on Earth [thinks he is -rubbish of course] which he did. .Netanyahu made an agreement if Pope did it he would with him build a new Temple in old Jerusalem; Pope's condition; it would be an International Church. Netanyahu built his ABYSS [Rev 11;7] Synagogue Temple under the Dome of the Rock. This agreement was broken with the Dedication sacrifices June 2019 & fully broken 27 Sept 2019 with sanctification burning of Pure Red Heifer on Mt Olivet - they said they were practicing for the new true Synagogue -they lied.. God I believe was so angry He released the first WOE which will cause 1/2 hour of PEACE in the World- it will take that long to contain Corona Virus - 21 months[an hour 42 months or 3.5 yrs] -June 2021. No one will have the will to make war -too busy dealing with the virus. What I think we are seeing is these events. Everything will get worse from then on.Almost total Lock down has occurred in my country now .We are one of America's greatest allies...... God keep you & yours in these difficult times.....I personally don't think Rapture is until the last..... could be wrong ?..... Maranatha.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      3 months ago from Texas, USA

      Thank you, Israel! Likewise, may God's love be upon you and your family, as well. Yes, we are in the prophesied end times, and the birth pangs of judgment will get closer and closer--a domino effect! May many turn to the One True God before it is too late.

    • profile image

      Israel 

      3 months ago

      Tribulation is here. Time of social control. Events taking place that have not occurred in human history. Have no doubt we are in Endtime. Great tribulation will come at the end of it. Let us pray the 2 last prophets are not too harsh on the world. They should appear soon. You asked what books you might study well there is only one in my opinion ; the Bible with prayerful insights from the Holy Spirit........Bless you in your search for truth....God's love be upon you & your Family...........Baruch Hashem [God Bless You].... Israel.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      3 months ago from Texas, USA

      I appreciate hearing your further thoughts, thanks! Shalom

    • profile image

      Israel 

      3 months ago

      Something else to consider. Time, times &1/2 divided time is not 42 months or 1260 days or 3.5 years. Why? {Dan 12;9] it will be sealed until End Time [now I believe].......Time since the beginning God measured from first morning to the next - a day-24 hours. He divided the prophecies into 70 of 7's so 1/2 division is 3.5.

      Another highly intelligent Jew [Albert Einstein] wrote E = M x C & x C. This is I think a universal equation because here is the same format in reverse Time x Time & x 1/2 divided time = the WHEN of Daniel.. Thus 24 x 24 & x 3.5 = the WHEN of Daniel =2016 a.d. & as soon as they finish shattering the Power of the Holy People it will be completed.How long ? --no man will know !--but will start in 2016a.d. What is the Power of the Holy People? They [some of the very richest ones--Rothschild etc] controlling shares Reserve Bank America & the Bank Of England & most of the Banks of Europe] I believe control the World's money & Trade through manipulation. .....another piece of interesting information ......the direct connection between the American Whitehouse & the current king of the Jews is Jarrod Kushner the Presidents son in Law & Senior advisor is Netanyahu' s Godson. A real worry! No CIA needed to commit state sanctioned murder.Thank heaven the Senate has culled his power to war. MOSSAD took us into false war in Iraq [Media --the short horn of the Ram] Now we are being induced into Iran war --the long horn of the Ram [Persia] that came up last [1980's] as Iran...Most Jews are just very nice decent people- just anti Christ --they have not yet accepted their Messiah- that is my mission that they be saved....I have been cursed for doing it.As with my Lord I still love them....... .....Maranatha.Shalom

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      3 months ago from Texas, USA

      I know the Lord God is speaking to many these days through dreams and visions (Joel 2:28). I thank you for sharing what He is speaking to you in them. I will ask Him to help my understanding and will definitely pray with you that a large remnant will be saved coming to know their MESSIAH. Praise God!

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      3 months ago from Texas, USA

      Israel, I must admit, I've not seen this from the Israel perspective before. This is quite intriguing and I wonder if you can suggest anything written about this so I can study this further. Thank you so much for what you've written in your comment!

    • profile image

      Israel 

      4 months ago

      Sadly for me a Jew the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 is immediately recognisable & equates to the crimson beast which has sitting on it the Great Harlot the elect are fooled by & revere of Rev 17.. The divided kingdom that had the stone cut from it is Judeah under Rome but answering to it's own kings.Israel was divided; to the north Israel which turn divided into several smaller kingdoms under Rome & Judeah to the south..many say it is the Roman Church which is false [pity help them for misleading many; the price will be damning] as the stone came from Judeah & the Roman Church did not appear until centuries after the Messiah's Ascension. Further proof is Rev 17 the Great Harlot defined Rev16;6 &17;6 & 18;24 as the city [Rev17;18] that has the blood of the Prophets ,Saints & Jesus's Witnesses on it. Jesus's Witnesses to be murdered in JERUSALEM [Rev 11;8] .The Saints Stephen [first saint] & Paul [greatest saint] both condemned by the Sanhedrin JERUSALEM .The Prohets almost ALL tortured ,beaten or murdered in JERUSALEM especially God's herald John the Baptist [Jesus's cousin] & GOD's MESSIAH SON Jesus Christ -the Greatest Prophet of ALL. Have no doubt it is JERUSALEM [3 strikes you are out] & the beast is modern ISRAEL whose reemergance is described perfectly in Daniel 7 picture talk. The man of perdition /false prophet /anti Christ leads this anti Christ [my] nation.the only people totally anti Christ [even the Muslims recognise Him as the Messiah -just not God's son -they will acknowledge that before the Jews who will be last]. Current king WAS [1996] 11th king [elected] &8th head [7th head had the fatal wound- Rabin] WAS NOT treads down 3 kings WAS AGAIN [2009] returns without the honour of kingship [Livni wins election]. His name/number 666 in Hebrew he has placed so far on more than 1/2 the world's population [India &China & more] with his Teva Biotec r/hand marking system. Do not revere the Great Harlot , Crimson beast or the anti Christ....I warn you...Maranatha Shalom....servant of Jacob.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      16 months ago from Texas, USA

      I've never considered that the 4th kingdom could be all those combined. Thank your for sharing. I will indeed consider this in my studies. GBU!

    • profile image

      Gerald Logan 

      16 months ago

      After 30 years of the study of prophecy I believe that Daniel's 4th kingdom is the combined land area of the kingdoms that have oppressed Israel during the Times of the Gentiles. Outlined in Revelation 17:9-17. Which is Assyria, Egypt, Babylon, Medo-Persian Grecian, Rome. This will be one kingdom with ten kings/kingdom within its borders. This is the 7th kingdom of Rev. In the middle of the tribulation it becomes the kingdom of the Anti-Christ making the 8th kingdom and will be destroyed by the stone... Jesus Christ 2nd coming.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      5 years ago from Texas, USA

      Jerami,

      Your above understanding of Daniel's prophecy highlights how absolutely vital it is to understand the principle of duality in Biblical prophecy--or double fulfillment. Many early followers of Jesus did not realize His Olivet teaching was a dual prophecy and so expected His Second Coming would occur after the destruction of Jerusalem. When He didn't return at that time, this left a number of them very disillusioned and even stopped believing, leaving many congregations to fall into apostasy at the end of the first century.

      Many, or I'd say most, Biblical prophecies have both a short-term and long-term fulfillment. The long-term fulfillment symbolize a major, often eschatological event that will occur later in the end times.

      One of the best examples of dual fulfillment is the Olivet discourse in Matthew, Mark and Luke. The siege of Jerusalem, when Antiochus Epiphanes’ sacrifice of a pig on the altar (the Abomination of Desolation) and the destruction of the Second Temple by Titus Flavius are seen as only partial fulfillments of the prophecy (also predicted in the book of Daniel). We can clearly see that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was similar to the Great Tribulation that is occur in the time immediately preceding Jesus' second coming. He was actually predicting that the Abomination of Desolation which occurred under Antiochus Epiphanes would also occur again during when the final antichrist comes. So Jesus actually prophesied two events in His Olivet discourse. Jerusalem’s destruction and the Great Tribulation.

    • Jerami profile image

      jerami 

      5 years ago from Houston tx

      For many reasons I'm not able to get on line very often. any way ...

      Just want to give you something to think about.

      First I want to say I believe Islam is the beast mentioned in Rev. 13:11.

      BUT ,, If it is the other beast (with 7 heads and ten horns),

      It came into existence with Mohamed (around 600 ad). The Lord gave it 42 months to blaspheme. This would mean that 42 months in prophesy is a greater period of time than the 1400 years that it has been in existence.

      In 538 BC Daniel received the vision as described in C.9. .. v 23 , ... at the beginning of thy supplications (a few days previously) the commandment came forth . V.25 from the going forth of the commandment it shall be 69 weeks unto the Messiah the Prince, and it shall be 62 weeks until they kill the Messiah. This would mean that 62 weeks in prophesy would be about 568 of our years.

      I believe the prophesy given in Daniel pertain to the events leading up to the crucifixion of the Messiah, and the great tribulation leading up to the the end of days for the Hebrew people as a nation. A tribulation such as will never be seen again. This ( as will never be seen again) does not imply the end of the world as a whole.

      Last thought for the night. The beast rises up out of the sea, Satan gives it his power and seat, ... Satan is bound in the bottomless pit for 1000 years, and when he gets out, When the sixth bowl is poured out, the devil, the beast and false prophet are seen in the dried up river Euphrates. Rev. 16:12. and spirits coming out of their mouths bring the kings of the earth together for the Last Great battle.

      Why do we assume these three are co-conspirators ?

      What if they are all three opposing each other and their fighting each other engulfs the whole earth?

      What if ?? The more we try to prevent it, the more we become involved fighting it, the more inevitable it becomes.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      5 years ago from Texas, USA

      Ronald, Yes, it makes so much more sense, doesn't it. I'm watching to see if the little horn immerges from the area of the historical Assyrian empire.

    • profile image

      Ronald D. Bruno 

      5 years ago

      I'm glad someone else sees Islam as the final Beast. They've been anti- Israel and anti-Christian for a long time. Rome and Italy is Catholic. Most of Europe apart from the secular would claim Christianity as the #1 religion and so would US, South America, Australia, Latin America. Islam is the threat, a beast with seven heads and ten horns. Three horns were plucked (Mubarek, Qudafi, and soon Assad). Hussein was plucked and so was Bin Laden, although been Osama wasn't a ruler, he certainly was a leader of an Islamic terrorist group. So if Assad is not removed, one of these other two could certainly fit the bill. One little horn will immerge (one of the remaining seven) and he will rise. Maybe it's this ISIS leader? The Arab spring movement happened so fast, within six months, many countries were in revolt. This is no coincidence, the Beast is part Iron and part clay. It has strong parts and weak parts and is in itself not in unity. But they all are against Israel and Christianity?

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      5 years ago from Texas, USA

      Kenneth, such encouraging feedback! I'm very glad you found this study helpful. :-)

    • kenneth avery profile image

      Kenneth Avery 

      5 years ago from Hamilton, Alabama

      Ms Dee,

      "When gentiles shall surround and trod around the city of Jerusalem." This says a lot without saying so much.

      I will tell you the truth. I really love this hub.

      This is an excellent piece of writing. Amazing work. I loved the way you presented your topiic. Wonderful graphics.

      This piece was helpful, informative and very interesting.I was glad to vote Up and all of the choices, but Funny.

      You are certainly a gifted writer. Please keep up the fine work.

      Sincerely,

      Kenneth Avery, Hamilton, Alabama

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      5 years ago from Texas, USA

      Excellent description of some possible interpretations! Much of this is what I have wondered, myself. I would add China to your list in last paragraph, too. Yes, we must hold on to our faith! :)

    • profile image

      Ronald D Bruno 

      5 years ago

      It is most evident that Islam, throughout its history, has been anti-Jew and anti-Christian. They have spread their religion by force not love, warring over territories, occupying them and forcing conversions through exile, torture and death. It should be no surprise that Islam is the obvious current threat to Israel and the world and not some revised Roman Empire (European Union, NATO or United Nations).

      I have been convinced for many years that the Beast with seven heads and ten horns is Islam. Three horns are plucked and one emerges. It's interesting that Mubarek, Qudhafi and a third leader (Assad) seem to qualify as these three horns. If Assad is not dethroned, then maybe Bin Laden would qualify as one of them. Even though he wasn't a head of a nation, he was actually worse, a leader of worldwide Islamic terrorism. One little horn will soon emerge among the remaining leaders within Islam that will unite them. We are now blind to who he is. Maybe he must suffer an apparent deadly blow before Satan can possess him -- then we'll know, when he demonstrates his supernatural powers.

      It would be speculative to label Obama as the little horn, who comes out of nowhere inconspicuously _ seeks to change the law and times _ fulfill his father's dreams (who was a Muslim) and takes over before his time is up! He has been instrumental in the unraveling of the Middle East and with Iran's development of nukes by passively doing nothing. He's a Teflon president who sits back, talks about how much better life is and will be while playing golf, attending fund raisers, giving us speeches filled with lies and polishing his Nobel Prize that he didn't earn. Someone would have to supernaturally empower him so he would fit the bill, cause he's to weak in his own strength. Although the 17 trillion dollar debt, Obamacare and his executive orders have done enough damage to collapse this country ... we'll just have to wait and see how all this unfolds.

      Aside from that speculation; whatever Iran, Russia, N. Korea or other terrorist organizations have in mind, they would need to act before Obama's term ends, to take advantage of his weakness -- so be forewarned. And that my friends will be an introduction to the Great Tribulation period. Hold onto your faith!

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 years ago from Texas, USA

      Hi POT! Amen, we need God's Spirit to guide us into all truth. It seems there is something wrong with my Comments notification in that it now waits almost 24 hrs to notify me of new comments, so that I can approve them, or not (I have to filter them due to some problems in the past.) I only found your comment of two hours ago because I came to the actual hub to check. I've now approved your provious ones, though for some reason they are not showing here yet. I'm sorry for this delay.

    • Pool Of Thoughts profile image

      David Steffy 

      7 years ago from Southern Ohio

      Ms Dee, I appreciate your views and realize that the importance of these things are to point the true believer towards the necessity of having the Holy Ghost. Without Him, we'll be deceived. Period. You didn't post my last post so I am not sure exactly what I wrote that gave you another contradicting opinion. The spirit of anti-Christ will become incarnate in a man. Blessings,

      David

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 years ago from Texas, USA

      POT, I see you are saying the 2nd beast of Rev 13 is a person, also. (Though it seems you are no longer saying it is the U.S.) I agree that in the end times, Mystery Babylon will be Satan's seat and Babylon is not literal Babylon at that point. But Attalus III was before the revelation was given to John, where it then says Pergamum is Satan's seat. Also, Roman rule extended to the Eurphrates only for a period of months, a fraction of its 2600 year history in the Middle East, so insignificant. In addition, when Rome took rule of lands, though its' military had the great strength to crush rebellions, rather than destroying the culture, abolishing its religion and imposing a new language, it generally tolerated these things while adding law, building roads and infrastructure—creating order. This is in contradiction to the destructive nature of Daniel's forth empire.

    • Pool Of Thoughts profile image

      David Steffy 

      7 years ago from Southern Ohio

      Ms Dee, It is obvious that Babylon was the seat of Satan and is where the worship of a polytheistic god started. When the Medes and Persians took Babylon the priest-king Attalus fled the city and went to Pergamos with his priests and sacred mysteries. Thus Pergamos was the seat of Satan. He set up his kingdom there outside the Roman empire. A succession of priest kings followed Attalus until the reign of Attalus III who, for unknown reasons, willed the kingdom to Rome. Julius Caesar took both the kingdom physical and spiritual and became Pontiff Maximus of the Babylonish religion and was priest-king. This title was given to each successive emperor until Maximus III who refused it. It was then at this time that the pope took the headship that the emperor rejected and we still have a pontiff in the world today and he is truly Pontiff Maximus. In Revelation 17 God no longer refers to Pergamos as Satan's Seat nor does he state that it is where Satan dwells. The throne room is no longer in Pergamos, but it is in MYSTERY Babylon. It isn't Babylon, but MYSTERY Babylon. That is where the "man" sits that has a triple crown, usurped the position of Christ (who alone is the mediator and can forgive sins), exalts himself above all that is called God (The WORD by claiming they have the right to change it anytime), and is in the city (Vatican) that the woman (church) sat on who was drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. This is where the "person" is that will become the very incarnate devil after the saints of God are raptured.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 years ago from Texas, USA

      POT, I have a little more time now to respond further on two things you say in your comment. One is that Rev 2:13 says Pergamum (in W. Turkey, a part of the Islamic Empire) is Satan's seat. The other is that when you say "This one that gives power unto the image is the United States", it seems you are saying the second beast of Rev 13 is the U.S., per Rev 13:15. If so, this does not make sense to me for one thing as in 13:13 this beast is a person who will "perform great signs, even ausing fir to ome down from heaven". It makes more sense to me that this is the Islamic Jesus that Islam says is to come.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 years ago from Texas, USA

      POT, A few quick things. "It's not one nation anymore" can also be said for the Ottoman Empire transitioning to the Islamic Empire. The beast in Revelation cannot be Rome resurrected, per my reason #3 above. Also, Mystery Babylon could just as easily be Mecca in Saudi Arabia. All that you say about the Roman Empire can be said for the Islamic Empire, and even more so. Particularly today. So, I'm saying I'm not convinced by your points regarding Rome.

    • Pool Of Thoughts profile image

      David Steffy 

      7 years ago from Southern Ohio

      Yes, I see now what sounds like I contradicted myself . I should have made myself clearer. Sorry about that. Okay, please notice in the last part of Daniel 2 what the vision shows.

      Daniel 2: 40-45

      40 † And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

      41 † And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

      42 † And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

      43 † And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

      44 † And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

      45 † Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

      Notice what is said about this last beast. It starts out saying that it shall be strong as iron. It breaks in pieces and subdues all things. Then, it points to the feet and toes. The kingdom shall be divided. It shall be partly strong and partly broken. They shall mingle themselves with the seed of men. (It’s not all in one nation anymore like it was in pagan Rome) It’s religious Rome now and has mingled itself among all nations. Talk about cruelty and power. There is nothing more cruel than that religious spirit of the dragon (Satan), especially when he is given power to force all to worship or be killed (Papal Rome).

      Now, in Revelation 12 - I won’t quote it here but just read all seventeen verses. The child is Jesus Christ that this dragon tries to devour. Who issued the decree to kill all the children to try to kill Jesus Christ? Herod the Great, king of Judea appointed by the Roman Senate. Rome.

      Notice in Daniel 7 when it describes the 4th beast. How many horns does that beast have? Ten.

      In Revelation 13:1 we see the same four beasts that are in Daniel 7 (yes, I believe it is the same as what is described in Daniel 2 also by the way) except they are all combined into one. Daniel saw them at the beginning of the Gentile ruling as 4 separate beasts and John sees them at the end of the Gentile ruling as 1 beast. Not only that, but instead of describing this horrible, terrible, 4th beast with great iron teeth he begins talking about the Dragon. It has ten horns, a mouth speaking great things, persecutes the saints, devours or controls the commerce of the whole world etc. Compare to Daniel 7: 20-25

      Now, this is Rome, not the United States. However, in Rev 13:11, just ten verses later, it begins to speak of ANOTHER beast that comes up out of the earth and has two horns like a lamb, but speaks like a dragon. It exerciseth all the power of the first beast (not the head of gold or lion beast but the one mentioned in verse 1 of Rev 13) before him which is Rome. This beast had power to give “life” unto the image (organized religion, world council of churches) of the beast and cause all who would not worship it to be killed and many other things about this second beast that you can read in Rev 13. This one that gives power unto the image is the United States. I don’t have time or space to do it justice but I will try later on perhaps. Papal Rome is the mother of all organized religion, Mystery Babylon. That idea of a forced religion started in Genesis with Nimrod and has slithered its way all through the scriptures to Revelation. Rome is Satan’s (The Dragon, or Serpent) seat now.. Muslims or Hindus etc. will never deceive anyone that knows the scriptures, but Rome will; and already has. This 4th kingdom will DECEIVE the whole world. I’m just skipping the tops of it and cannot do it justice here. Does that make it clearer? I hope so. Just let me know and I’ll try to do better sometime. God bless you all!

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 

      7 years ago from Ohio

      That is what I thought you meant as well, perhaps I misunderstood. Am following this hub though to see any additional input. Thanks!

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 years ago from Texas, USA

      POT, Since the 4th kingdom in the statue of Daniel 2 and the 4th beast of Daniel 7 refer to the same last empire, we are taking you to mean you think the 4th kingdom is the U.S. when you said 8 days ago "I don't believe its the european or the middle east. I believe its the United States." Maybe you'd like to clarify if this is not what you meant.

    • Pool Of Thoughts profile image

      David Steffy 

      7 years ago from Southern Ohio

      @Sojourner1234, I never said, or not intentionally anyway, that the 4th kingdom was the United States. I said that it is Rome....Papal Rome, religious Rome. Same spirit just wearing a different mask. If you like to study history then I believe you will see what this Papacy rule done to those who were spirit filled all through the dark ages until the reformation and even continues on today. Rome ruled the world through religion....and it will again. Satan is very religious and cunning. The Anti-Christ is religious, especially masked as a Christian religion with a geniune Holy Ghost anointing (false Christs {anointed ones}will deceive all whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of Life before the foundation of the world) casting out devils, doing many wonderful works, just like Judas did in the ministry of Christ. Catholicism and Protestantism is all the same spirit. Mother and daughters, and I will just write a blog on it if the Lord is willing and stop right there. I touched on some of this in a forum post somewhere...just check on my feeds I guess because I can't remember what it is called right now...LOL God bless you all.

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 

      7 years ago from Ohio

      You are quite welcome Ms Dee. The pastor is actually my father, Chuck Marshall, and he pastors a church here in Ohio. I hope that doe not seem to bias the outcome of what I think of the study (as unfortunately many children do not have a high opion of their father, and sadly there are many fathers who do not give them a good reason to). I happen to believe my father is quite wise and he is (factually) very studied in the Bible. His opinions come from years of study and applied knowledge.

      I will say also that the understanding of the fourth kingdom does involved understanding of both the Bible and history... many miss the historical signs and the present day signals of this perspective.

      Another Ohioan! That's great! I think it is a very good place to be born and raised myself. God bless!

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 years ago from Texas, USA

      Sojourner, What a confirming comment! Thank you for posting this. Makes me wonder who the pastor is that you refer to. Yes, one needs to know the Bible very well and knowledge over the span of history in the Middle East. (Guess what! I was born and raised in Ohio! :).)

    • Sojourner1234 profile image

      John Marshall 

      7 years ago from Ohio

      Ms Dee, this is an excellent study! I have heard this preached on, by a pastor who knows the Bible well, in a three part series with the same conclusions. I appreciate your factual approach, allowing the logic of the prophecies and passages drive this pursuit of truth.

      PoolOfThoughts, you already have some respect from me, just being a fellow Ohioan :) I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that the US would be the fourth kingdom; you gave a quick indication of why, but just curious what other info might have led you to this outcome. Thanks!

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 years ago from Texas, USA

      PoolOfThoughts, I absolutely enjoy hearing your thoughts (even though I don't always agree)! Sure hoping you get that book somehow. It presents from a very solid exegetical foundation and interpretive principles and is very eye-opening.

    • Pool Of Thoughts profile image

      David Steffy 

      7 years ago from Southern Ohio

      CJ, Thanks for the welcome and the warning. I will try to bite my tongue and season my words with love. I don't have much time to talk on forums but I find it interesting and informative at times.

      Ms Dee, thank you for your comments and the nice article. If you don't mind me saying, I don't believe its the european or the middle east. I believe its the United States. In Rev 13 it speaks of another beast rising up out of the earth (not seas, or thickness and multitudes of people) but out of nearly nothing and had two horns like a lamb(freedom of religion, etc.) and later spake as a dragon. This beast exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 years ago from Texas, USA

      PoolOfThoughts, I am pleased to hear yours and I once thought as you describe here with regards to Rome as the fourth kingdom. Since you read this hub, I added another book--an excellent study by Joel Richardson, "Mideast Beast". I am fully convinced that a mideast beast fits the scripture prophecies much better than a european beast does. (This beast is what the fourth kingdom becomes.) Richardson explains why the Roman destruction of Jerusalem is not really done by Rome, itself, and how the 9th reason in this hub that the fourth empire is not Rome, but instead the Turkish Ottoman Empire, makes much more sense--basing it on scripture and historical context. I highly recommend this study. There are many more scriptures that make this very clear, and without having to twist interpretations, at all. I hope you will get his book and see for yourself :).

    • profile image

      CJ Sledgehammer 

      7 years ago

      David: Welcome to Hubpages! I think you will find some wonderful people and kindred spirits here, but you will also find a hoard of godless and wayward souls, who disrespect everything you stand for.

      Please be careful when using the "Forums" - it is a hornet's nest and the best way for a Christian to get banned. The wayward souls over there cannot tolerate reproach or godly living...so be careful.

      Now, on to business. Historically speaking, Rome does not fit Daniel's description very well, yet we do know Jesus referred to Rome as being the "Abomination that causes desolation".

      Forgive me, but my computer is acting up again. I'll have to come back later. - C.J.

    • Pool Of Thoughts profile image

      David Steffy 

      7 years ago from Southern Ohio

      Well, I am certainly not as sharp as some of you when it comes to history and dates, and kingdoms, but I like the way you all respect one another. It encourages one to add a comment even though I'm out of your league so to speak.

      Ms Dee, in your #5 point that you make in your hub, "Mortally wounded - It has had a seeming mortal wound but then heals, causing all to marvel. It was, is not and will come. It is called an eighth king, though it comes from the one of the previous seven." sheds much light on the subject.

      I believe Rome was the fourth kingdom, not be disagreeable, and if I may hit a few highlights maybe you can see it. Pagan Rome ruled the world, was the instrument through which the religious leaders of the day killed the very God they claimed to worship, destroyed Jerusalem, and persecuted all who opposed their authority.

      Then Rome was dealt a deadly wound and appeared to fall (here's the deception of the evil thing), only it merely changed its mask. Rome is still VERY much alive and ruling. Just how much will be made manifest in the very near future. Pagan Rome became Papal Rome. Read Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons(circa 1850s).

      For over a thousand years during the dark ages Rome was drunk with the blood of every martyr...and still is in some countries. To oppose the Roman Universal church was instant death. Read the Foxe's Book of the Martyrs. During the reformation she (the Great Whore) lost her absolute power through the promise of God to restore the Truth back in the last days. Only there were daughters born to this Great Whore. The Bible says that she was a mother of harlots. The very men whom God raised up to protest and denounce that horrible thing had followers who turned right around and organized themselves like the mother church did. Now we have over a thousand blasphemous names all claiming to be the purest or original church, and we see God moving right on with that little flock who will follow Him (The WORD).

      All of these organizations, and world religions (Muslims too) will come under the headship of Rome. The mark of the beast isn't coming, its here. The manifestation of that mark will be in the future, but the marking is going on right now. When you reject the Holy Ghost, your receive the mark of the beast. When the church gets the political and financial power secured, then will come the Great Tribulation unlike anything that has ever been before. She has done it before and she'll do it again. Many of these brothers on here do not see a compound meaning in scripture.

      I have many scriptures and things but I thought I would hit the highlights. It would take me a long time to put it together like you all do.

      Perhaps I'll write a hub on this myself to avoid cluttering Ms Dee's comments section. God bless you all.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 years ago from Texas, USA

      Highvoltagewriter, nice to hear from one of like mind, even when we are politically incorrect :).

    • Highvoltagewriter profile image

      William Benner 

      7 years ago from Savannah GA.

      I also believe that the Muslims will be involved in Satan's final deception...However, in this day and age, that view is not politically correct! But I never have been very politically correct! Also , thank you for all great insights here and in your answers!

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 years ago from Texas, USA

      CJ, I love your explanation--thank you!

    • profile image

      CJ Sledgehammer 

      7 years ago

      Vladimir:

      You said, "JC I did not know you are not Christian. You are not familiar with numerous predictions that Israel will be dispersed and then return back."

      -----------------------

      Yes, I am a rock-solid disciple of Christ standing on firm ground, but I do not endorse, entertain, condone, or promote much of the misinformation propagated from many of the wayward "Christian" churches today, where the "word-faith movement" and "prosperity preaching" are now king.

      Yes, I am familiar with many false teachings, errant misgivings, and popular misunderstandings in main-stream "Christianity" today. From what I have seen, many "Christians" are more loyal to "cotton-candy" theology than they are to the real Word of God.

      To talk about the dispersion of the Jews as if it did not happen already, is taking history into contempt. Part of my discouragement with "Christians" today, is they do not know their history and they have not done their research. It makes it very difficult communicating truth to them, because they would rather have their ears tickled. They are willing to love God and follow Him, just as long as He never ventures out of their comfort zone. Truth, therefore, is not on the side of the faint-hearted.

      Vladimir, of course I forgive you. You need to understand, however, that I am not your average "Sunday" Christian, but my faith and love for Christ Jesus and His heavenly Father runs deep.

      So, the real question is whether I am a disciple of Christ Jesus, or what has now become known as a contemporary "Christian". I don't know if I would be considered a "Christian" to many main-streamers today, nor would I want to. I believe Christianity has strayed far from the path of righteousness over the past 170 years, and through spiritual compromise - it is no longer what it used to be.

      Best wishes and be well - C.J. Sledgehammer

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 years ago from Texas, USA

      wrenfrost56, so glad you found this so useful!

    • wrenfrost56 profile image

      wrenfrost56 

      7 years ago from U.K.

      Fascinating hub on the fourth kingdom and excellent points made and useful points for use of reference, great work. :)

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 

      7 years ago from HubPages, FB

      CJ Sledgehammer, I do apology if I was judgmental. Please, forgive me.

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 

      7 years ago from HubPages, FB

      Hey, I agree mostly with Ms. Dee.

      Our earth is real not spiritual. God is the owner. Only sinners occupy it. But we are here believers too. He is our Lord of the Church. Satan is prince of this world. Jesus will come first and appears in the clouds with saints. We will be cough up and meet the Lord in clouds. (There is no mentioned Church after Chapter 3 in Book of Revelation). It will be before Great Tribulation. The second coming of the Lord He will come to Mount of Olive as He left. He will come again to Jerusalem through Golden Gate. Before He will speak the WORD and foreign armies in Meggido will be self destroyed. Jesus will sit on the David's Throne. One Thousand years reign will begin. Blood of army is real. Death is real. In New Jerusalem will be no deaths or blood.

      JC I did not know you are not Christian. You are not familiar with numerous predictions that Israel will be dispersed and then return back. Decades years ago there were Messianic Jews only in thousands, now is five hundred thousands. Entire Israel will be saved. But first it will be hard for Jews.

      You do not have slightest idea what Roman religion made to us (in Europe) killing in past, torturing (inquisition), burning Bibles. Then is Slovakia they took Jews and handed to Germans for money. They killed many. The teaching of Bible is twisted, worshiping statues. Believe me I do love people but hating sin and system.

      I never seen historical murdering by Jerusalem Jewish of saints as Roman whore did.

      This is the way I see it. Excuse me my English.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 years ago from Texas, USA

      CJ and Vladimir, I am convinced that the "Great Whore" that Christ smashes/destroys upon His second coming--as depicted in Daniel 2:34-35 by the big stone that smashes the feet of the statute--is of the 4th kingdom; not Jersusalem. It is the nations who rise up against Jerusalem and take half the city (Zech 14:2) and then Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to fight those nations (14:3-4) before they have completely taken Jerusalem. A remnant will "flee" or escape (14:5). I think the stone smashing the statue is Christ's second coming and His defeat of the nations. So the nations of Zech 14:2 are the 4th kingdom--those that surround Israel who come up against her.

      As you CJ have pointed out, however, it is not that Christ comes to reign in the current earthly Jerusalem. I think He comes to save a remnant--those who believe--from it, and then the spiritual Israel (as opposed to physical Israel) reign with Him in a new Jerusalem; the new Jerusalem of Revelation 21.

    • profile image

      CJ Sledgehammer 

      7 years ago

      Vladimir:

      You said, "The problem I have is that context of Bible is not talking about Jerusalem, which is not consider as a whore, but favor city whether Jesus will be King."

      Truth is, you are operating under the assumption that Christ is not referring to Jerusalem as the "Great Whore", whereas, it is very possible.

      Please keep in mind that Jesus is the King of the New Jerusalem, not of ancient Jerusalem or of the physical Jerusalem of Israel today. As Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

      May God be with you and yours - C.J. Sledgehammer

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      7 years ago from Texas, USA

      Vladimir, I take the first horse to a conquering entity but not necessarily the antichrist. The fourth, pale, horse I see as clearly the antichrist that arises from the conquering entity, just as in Revelation 17:11 an 8th comes up from within the 7th and in Daniel 7:8 a little 'horn' comes up from among the others.

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 

      7 years ago from HubPages, FB

      It is very interesting. My Jewish friends confirmed it. The problem I have is that context of Bible is not talking about Jerusalem, which is not consider as a whore, but favor city whether Jesus will be King. I came from Europe and had not available US literature, we thought it was Rome. Now Rome is raising up. Babylon portrays false religion. But not existing any more but Rome does.

      The pale horse will come after white horse (according to Revelation) after Antichrist will arrive. The pail hoarse in Greek is "chloros," which means green. Just my thoughts.

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 

      7 years ago from HubPages, FB

      I was in Jerusalem and never counted hills, ha. Blessings.

    • profile image

      CJ Sledgehammer 

      8 years ago

      Vladimir:

      I am a little pressed for time, so to save a moment or two, I pasted this information from scholarly text called, "The Seven Hills of Jerusalem" - By Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 2000

      "The City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills." This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles. In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an 8th century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills" (recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111). And, so it was. Those "seven hills" are easy to identify.

      If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives:

      The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One],

      The middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two],

      The highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13).

      On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name),

      The "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five],

      To the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six],

      And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new 'Mount Zion.' "

      It is also important to note that in the days of Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon was also known as the "City on seven hills."

      So, this makes 4 ancient cities, that I know of, that were deliberately built on 7 hills, and I am sure there are more.

      1) Jerusalem

      2) Babylon

      3) Rome

      4) Constantinople

      Hope this helps.

      Best wishes, behave, and be well - C.J. Sledgehammer

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      8 years ago from Texas, USA

      Vladimir, Another interpretation of the seven hills of Rev 17:9 could also be seven nations, as they are actually likened to the seven heads of the beast.

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 

      8 years ago from HubPages, FB

      I copy for Wikipedia this: Jerusalem

      Jerusalem ... thus leading to the suggestion that the name refers to the fact that the city sits on two hills.

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 

      8 years ago from HubPages, FB

      I know about original Jerusalem (Salem) was built on one mountains and it is Mt. Moriah. Can you tell me names if I am wrong, please Mr CJ?

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      8 years ago from Texas, USA

      Hi CJ, Yes, that is right. And the antichrist kingdom, the fourth kingdom in Daniel's vision, mirrors in many ways the kingdom Christ will usher in when he comes again. The seven hills/mountains are where the major city of both kingdoms reside.

    • profile image

      CJ Sledgehammer 

      8 years ago

      Let us not forget that Jerusalem was built on seven mountains (mounts) long before Rome and Constantinople were built on seven hills.

      Best wishes and be well - C.J. Sledgehammer

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      8 years ago from Texas, USA

      Vladimir, How wonderful to hear what God has done in your life!! Oh, now I understand better your first comment. Yes, I too understand their expected Mahdi is likely to come from Iraq. I understand from the prophet Isaiah that the Antichrist is called the 'Assyrian', which could be northern Iraq or eastern Turkey. So I wonder, too, if the two will be seen as the same personabe. Right, and then there is his false prophet.

      Also, previously I neglected to respond to the fact of 7 hills. I do not recall exactly, but I read somewhere how that can be construed as somewhere in the Islamic world. Forgetting off hand, though, whether it was Saudi Arabia or Turkey.

    • Vladimir Uhri profile image

      Vladimir Uhri 

      8 years ago from HubPages, FB

      Absolutely, I hope I am nor right and I would be first to repent. I lived and was born in Europe and I experience enough and had the reason to hate. But I am new creation and I love on purpose. *** What I meant was that Mahdi will come probably from Iraq. But there are two persons which we do not like one is Antichrist and other is his prophet. There may be some combination.

    • Ms Dee profile imageAUTHOR

      Deidre Shelden 

      8 years ago from Texas, USA

      Hi Vladimir, Roman territory went as far as about the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, but not beyond. So it did not cover all of the Persian Empire.

      Yes, there is much tradition that says the fourth kingdom is Rome and much talk here, in the U.S. too, that it is rising again. I have heard it suggested that it could be Rome and Islam together. However, the reasons I explain in this hub article are enough to call this into question.

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