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So true. After the Boston Bombing, I was inundated with hate feeds from facebook. I couldn't believe that people would hate a whole "race" from one persons actions. I do agree with the hospital asking. That is a totally different ball game.
I agree cloverleaf-you can't blame Russians or Muslims for what happened in Boston-I have friends who are Muslims and most of them are peaceful
Great comment. i have no use 4 organized religion, and am called evil, athiest, bigot, etc., but with all that condemnation i am still a spiritual soul that is part of the whole (God).
I love your response here d.william - I couldnt' have said it better myself.
I don't believe we should label people. Not by color, religion, or any other. People are humans. They are either good, or bad. That is all I care about.
d.william, I am with you. I am not into organized religion, but I am still very spiritual person
I really agree with you - d.williams, christin S and cloverleaffarm. An atheist can be truly spiritual since spirituality is beyond religion. Only ignorant people attach importance to labels of religions. I believe we should not condemn any religion.
When a person brings up religion, am I compassionate, understanding, tolerant and openhearted towards them - staying in my center - or do I become as insensitive, opinionated, defensive, and clumsy towards them as I think they are being towards me?
Jared, Westboro is not a Church God would be pleased with. God is love. They are a church of hate.
Then I shall be subject to eternal torment...lol. I agree on the overbearing. I have come across many Christians who are like this...but not many from other religions. Probably just my experience.
cloverleaffarm were they actually Christians or from a certain denomination, for example Roman Catholic?
I certainly hope you are right. I want the age where it doesn't matter what you are, but rather who (or how you act) are. How you treat me is all I care about. I have several friends who are Baptist, and they don't seem to care what I am.
Well said, Christin. Since moving to Southern California, I feel more isolated from my friends who are religious. Maybe it's age. I LOVE them DEARLY, but simply can't share the deepest parts of my soul with them.
Sorry ChristinS that people treat you and your family like that. That's why I do most of my Bible Study at home and don't belong to an organized religion.
Somebody in another post mentioned WestBoro Bap. I can understand why people get turned off by Christianity if they are exposed to this church.
A different purpose? One can be Hindu, and the other Jewish, but as long as they respect the others difference they can love each other. This is like saying a Catholic can't marry a Protestant, to me anyway.
Clover, I LOVE my friends!! DEARLY! But when my two friends talk about their Bible study together,they share something I cannot share with them. There's a connection that I just don't have with them in that way. That's all I'm saying.I accept that.
Billie, I enjoy your balanced and thoughtful answer as usual. I wonder, how many here would be asked 'what is your religion?' because others see something to be desired or admired in the way the respondent lives their life.
Emanate Prescence, I KNOW! You can't help but wonder, when you see someone you admire in the world, whether or not their belief system should be yours. Peace, bro...(I get to say that even though I'm 68, right?)
To me, your religion doesn't matter. It is the way you treat me that matter.
clov... definitely right.
Well it could be one person invites a friend to dinner. He wants to make sure he does not prepare a meal that may have food that is offensive to the other. For ex. Jewish do not eat pork
Agreed, bottom line, they are human beings. Their gods reveal themselves only to them. Maybe they can call fire down like Elijah and mock and bully people. Islam will assault you for any offense. Either way, its just books and the follow it blindly.
This is where people lose me. I have concern for others who eat junk food, but I don't feel I have to go preach to them why they should stop. Religion is a deeply personal thing I wish people would keep personal unless others specifically ask.
Great answer Bard!! Christians do care.
I agree with ChristinS. Christians do tend to stick their noses in everyone elses business and pass judgments easily on others whether they know what they are talking about or not.
d. william..... Do you think it to be easy to testify to anyone?? It is very hard to do, but God tells us in the Bible this is what we must do.
Thumbs up Christin S. I don't need someone telling me what to believe. I don't want to be saved. Saved from what?
All the Christians I know beat their kids, cheat on their wives, and lie like a rug. Is this what Christians call caring?
JT: God tells us nothing in the bible. Those are man's words. If you choose to believe them, you have that right, but you do not have any rights to judge others or preach you fairy tales as truth.
You agnostics kill me. You think you set on a high horse and can set back and dissect every move a Christian makes and label them. You are the most judgmental people in the world and you are calling Christians judgmental for trying 2 do what is right
So when you judge non-christians you're doing what's right and when they call you on it - then it's being judgmental. OK - got it now, thanks for clarifying. No pot calling kettle black at all.
Jthomp42 what makes you think that Christians do what's right? History has proven that Christianity sits on the wrong side of the fence. Inquisitions, wars, civil rights. The right for a woman to terminate a pregnancy and vote and gay marriage.
gabs...... Not all of the things mentioned are right. Abortion and gay marriage being the case.
Christin.... get off of your soap box already.
JT.So 2 clarify: Christians can judge & criticize cause their instruction book says it is OK, when someone criticizes christians they R judgmental. If ignorance is bliss, U must be 1 happy dude.
If there was no god and no religion, there would be one less prejudice to deal with. Then again if God and Satan could just get on with each other what would there be to fight over?
11 states would disagree with you and so will I at every turn. You want to control the government and freedom. I always keep a firm grip on reality that who I am fighting are irrational people who believe in god and think they own other people.
lumen: cute.There certainly must B a higher power, but i will never believe that the higher power favors Christianity in all its faults, and falseness, that would make the higher power less than benevolent.
As I expected d. williams........ Name calling from a agnostic, how unusual. The Bible plainly says how God feels about these matters, like it or not, you are but a minuscule opinion in God's vast universe. So keep on with your lip service NO MATTER
jt: & as I expected. bigotry & name calling from a Christian. what God was supposed 2 have said in UR book of instr. came from the minds of people just like U. My sympathies 4 UR intense brainwashing
My true sympathies for your d. williams. The Bible is so vast and so intelligent the way it is written there is no way it could have been written without divine instruction. No matter how smart you think you are, the Bible is a true masterpiece of fa
Denounce the faith or belief of others and your faith and beliefs will leave you wanting.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
True lumen......... All I am doing is spreading God's word and taking up for my Father. God says "If you deny me on earth, I will not acknowledge you in Heaven." We must stand our ground among st the pagans. This is the least we can do 4 wht he has d
JT: U R entitled 2 UR beliefs, but that does not make them real. Learn how the bible was created, & by whom. When 1 holds goverment created laws as gospel we all lose. God wrote nothing. Get real.
God didn't write it with his own hand. But, there was certainly divine intervention involved. Do you think all the prophecies that have come to fruition could have been predicted by man? No. By the way, have you read the number 1 book ever published?
JT, if I said I was happy in what I believe, would you still try and save me?
No, humans do not save anyone. If you would talk to me, I would tell you how you can be saved. One may think they are happy when there is a huge part of their life missing.
I'm on a soapbox? lol you make me smile. All I know is I live joyfully and fearlessly every day and I'll take that over my previous life any day. To each their own, we all learn in our own way.
Christin..... I'm so glad I make you happy. :) Now since you think you are right, stop responding.
JT, Thank you for not saving me, but you still say you can, and that my belief is wrong. And on that note, all I can say is that your beliefs have left you wanting.
at gabgirl12 where did you hear that Christians are for abortions and Gay marriage? One is murder and the other goes against what the Bible says in regard to murder. Sry if I misunderstood the comment
UR bible is only relevant 2 those who believe it is. Quoting from it serves no purpose.Neither does UR need 2 'save' others who R probably way more spiritual than any christian will ever B.
d. william.... Your arrogance will be your downfall.
JT. Ur ignorance wil B urs. Govrnmnt. created RCC=christianity +a book of rules.then declared them all 2 B holy amen.Ur ? did i read #1book-if U refer to the bible.I was brought up in the RCC & read it several times. Great but fairy tale morals
You misunderstood Lois. Christians are against abortions and the civil rights for gays and lesbians. And that is wrong. Again, you can't control people by saying its 'gods' will jthomp42. If god exists, let god do the talking and get out of the way.
Excuse me d. william...... If you consider the Bible a fairy tale then I'm afraid you are very ignorant along with your arrogance which will get you no where when you "DO" have to meet your maker. "Do not feed your pearls 2 swine." I'm done w/you.
thanks for clarifying that. There's nothing wrong to be against abortions. I don't, however, like the protests at clinics because they can be violent. While homosexuality is a sin in the Bible, I am friends with them at work.
Gab.... I agree, homosexuals should have the same rights as straight people. But not special rights. All rights should be equal to every American.
JT & DW, maybe you should take this to another forum. Take solace in the fact that what you believe as individuals is right.
“Some people speak because they have something to say, others speak because they want to say something”
lumen: i agree. my apologies to the host (cloverleaffarm). The righteous will still judge those who disagree with them - both directions. Thanx for pointing this out.
I agree with equal right for homosexuals. They should have allowed them to join the military years before they did.
The belief in anything is the creation of the human mind manipulated over thousands of years until it is accepted as truth. This includes religion, science, physics and mathematics.
Hence, dear Lumen, belief has nothing to do with reality (what exists). The moon exists by definition. It is something somewhere, and was something somewhere long before a single human lived to believe in it.
The first two paragraphs are condescending and mean-spirited. The last one is interesting. Atheism is a defense against religion because 'spirituality' is still a concept relevant to society even when no one manages to come back from the 'dead'.
Spirituality is only relevant to society because it is irrational.
Psychiatry may be of help if one is seeing disembodied spirits or zero dimensional particles.
Yes, but we can't commit all of those who practice Islam, Christianity and any of the other religious entities that have survived over millienia now can we?
I like this concept. Because Monkeymind cannot grasp or understand something that is not presented to the senses he is aware of, it does not exist. So that means that If I cannot understand what love is, it does not exist. I like it.
@Eric: I also can not "grasp" square circles, because it is an irrational concept.
Love may be used as a verb or a noun in ordinary language (syntactical grammar), however, for purposes of science love can not be a noun. Love can not move mountains.
If the only way of knowing that something exists is by what we are told by another person, either verbaly or in historic written words, how do we know it to be true? By believing in words?
Love is a feeling, it is not hard to believe in love.
@Lumen: There is only possible, or not possible. One comes to THEIR conclusion because an explanation is either rational, or not rational.
My wife understands that I love her because of what I DO. Whatever her belief is not for me to decide.
Thank you monkeyminds for the clarification. Your quote is regarding moving obstacles out of the way. My love can do that. Mountains is a metaphor. But you knew that. So the statement becomes true. Because we all know it means obstacles. And love can
Love is something we do, facilitated by something we feel.
There are words that represent objects and words that represent concepts. All words resolve to one or the other. Is love an object or is love a concept?
Right on question. Same for God -- object or concept?
I suppose as a Christian you might say God is love. However, it is clear from certain biblical texts that god is an object: So which is it, Christian?
I think you are mistaken about the bible directing that God is an object. I think it clear that we call Him that because we have no other frame of reference as to what He is. Just like my silliness in calling Him a Him. Or a boat a she ;-)
There is no third category. Is God an object or concept?
You said mountain is a metaphor (concept) and that your love can move obstacles (concept).
You are confused between objects and concepts, nouns and verbs, syntax and context.
I do believe it is sometimes to convert you. Others, I think it is to prove they are better than you. I find this true with many Christians.
Philippians 2:6 -- ”Who, being in the FORM of God..."
Numbers 12:8 -- “With him I speak face to face..."
Job 4:15-17 -- “... A FORM stood before my eyes..."
Clearly God of the bible is an object. However, let's not confuse objecthood with existence.
No. Your citations are how God appeared to people. Not his essence. Of course He can take any form. God exists but He is not an object, just like our love example.
If God is not an object, as you claim, then God is a concept. If god is a concept than he does not exist. IOW, is not something somewhere.
object: that which has shape
concept: the relation between objects
There is no third category.
"If God is not an object the He is a concept". Those are my only two options?. How about --- God is a God. Gods are neither wholly concept nor wholly object. Kind of like a plant that can walk around. (note the wholly whollies here ;-)
God=God is not a definition, that is a synonym. What have we learned?
If you can't even define God, what exactly is it you do believe in?
Good luck with that, Eric.
Come on Monkeyminds that is an easy one. I believe in that which I can define .................. And that which I cannot define. How many failed poets tried to define love? How many succeeded but were different. Define beauty or pornography.
species of palm tree that has been known to walk as far as 20 meters.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-SeU5VIXYs
Still, a walking plant is at least conceivable, whereas a half concept, half object, is not.
Monkey - you speak of the atheist in this as though they are the ONLY people to try and convert people to their way of thinking, yet do not make mention of those of religion doing just that - even door knocking to find converts.
Disagreeing on definitions is NOT the same thing as understanding the difference between an object and a concept. Believing in something that you can not define, or understand is a shaky foundation on which to build a world view.
M, hear you. However, there is a group in between. I call them "Apathetic" but that doesn't catch on. I use it to descirbe those of us who feel the concept of god is so beyond our level of comprehension that it's disrespectful to waste time trying.
This last comment reminds me of all the cop shows; The hero always catches the bad guy based on a "hunch". Yes it may be a shaky foundation but it works every time in the movies. I reckon faith is kind of like that. Not knowledge but a hunch.
@ cloverleaffarm if a Christian believes he is better than u because u are not that is not a real Christian. A true Christian cares 4 u. And the same in any other religion
Your answer is so far off base from the original question. Why don't you create a hub?
So true. Bigotry and judgement are a big factor, I think. They judge you by your religion, instead of who you truly are.
Cloverleaffarm even Christians are labeled as Bible Thumpers, Judgemental and such-not all of us are. The true Christians are the ones who know that they are not perfect-like me
I keep hearing 'true christian'. Christians are always in the way and hurting people. god isn't real, if god was real why would he even need you? Being imperfect is human, if we were perfect we wouldn't die. Its not spiritual, its a fact.
Well gabgirl12 maybe you associated with the wrong types of Christians. I did not say I was perfect far from it. God loves us that's why he needs us. I can't prove that he is real but you can't prove that he isn't.
I do like to learn about other religions. What bothers me, is when they ask and then because you aren't "one of them", they feel they can't be friends with you.
Cloverleaffarm do you want friends like that. i have friends of many religions and nonbelievers as well
Thank you for not feeling you have to convert others. As a non-religious person I respect those who have faith but keep it by being kind to others, not seeking converts.
Yes, thank you for not feeling the need to convert. I am sure your friends appreciate this. You sound like a kind person, and that is truly the only thing that counts in the world.
There can be a wrong way to try to convert. A lady at work told a gay guy that he was going to go to hell if he didn't change. That was the wrong way. He was turned off. Usually I share with my writings. Agree great question cloverleaffarm
Excellent!I like your idea.
I don't think knowing a persons religion will help me know them more. I have a good friend, and I still don't know what religion he is, but I do know he will help you in time of need, and is all around a good friend.
Cloverleaffarm, I agree. This is probably the best way to get to know a person and learn from them- by not associating them with religious or other groups.
So basically it's an ego boost.
If someone tells me if they have a certain religion (or don't believe) I will not talk much about my Christianity because thye are steadfast if their faith. But if they ask a question I will honestly answer
Love the stories! 'The reason is golf...' priceless. A clear consciience (based on an understanding of what how we would want another to behave toward us) is a joy forever. I've experienced this in my life. My mother an aunt were very much this way
Unfortunately there are some religions that are like that that brainwash like the Branch Davidians and some of the other cults
Can they perform their ritual, and you perform yours? Does this mean one could not be friends, or perhaps marry? I know married couples that are not the same religion, and they have wonderful marriages. Children are usually the mother's religion.
Some churches might have rules. My sister couldn't get married in a Catholic church because her husband was divorced. I'm a Christian and my husband is not but he is sanctified through me because I am the believing spouse
I agree with you on the converting part, but they can spread their views somewhere else.
What do they need saving from? I am a good human being. Why do I "need" to be saved?
Saved so they get eternal salvation. Even if a good person does not believe God and believe that Jesus died on the cross they may not get eternal salvation.
Sigh... so all the billions of other people who have ever existed who were good people are doomed to eternal damnation for not believing in your religion? Ok, if you say so. smh
as one who understands the path to glory, I pray that everyone recognizes that Jesus died on the cross to provide a path to everlasting life.
ChristinS I go by what the Bible says but the Muslims are God's people too and they follow the Koran and The Jewish Follow Old Testament Law.
It would be nice if Christian believers were more worried about fixing the BS and those who give them a bad name than trying to add non-believers (of christianity) to their numbers. Christianity isn't only religion on the planet.
Gab.....Christians are human. What they do should have no baring on giving God a bad name. It is not God's fault how other's may behave.
Thank you Lois!!
I never said 'god' had a bad name. Christians however do. We are all 'human' by the way.
Gab... Yes, of course we are.
Do these Christians realize they are putting off people by doing this? One does not have to believe in Christ. Most Christians don't even know their Bible to begin with, so how can they pass it on to someone else.
cloverleaffarm ......... How can you make this assumption about "most" Christians do not know the Bible?? Did you take a survey?
JThomp, I did not take a survey, but have had several conversations with many Christians. The ones I have met, take the Bible and twist it into what they need it to say to justify their actions in their life.
That is kind of not real fair of you when you started the thread by saying "but those who are Christian are truly concerned......." Did you take a poll? We are taught that some have the gift. Certainly someone lousy shouldn't. do it.
gabgirl, I so agree with you. It is not the only religion, and they should fix themselves before trying to "fix" someone else. This of course is for the ones that feel the need to prove their religion is the best religion.
Yet, the way in which many Christians go about it is more likely to turn them away. Telling someone who they are is wrong, and they should change + love God or go to Hell isn't going to convert any1, nor is it compassionate. Yet, many still do it.
cloveleaffarm Every time I read the Bible I learn new things,but I take everything I read as I read it. If I don't understand something, I will admit it and not twist it around. I attend Bible Studies to give deeper understanding of the Bible
We understand that, JT, but turn it around. What if those of us who are non-believers were concerned about what would happen to YOUR soul by believing and tried to convince YOU to convert. I respect your beliefs, but the world KNOWS the message.
Eric..... You mean to tell me that you are a Christian and you do not worry about the lost? This astounds me.
Yes, I am told not to. Too many verses to quote -- http://www.openbible.info/topics/worry
That stuff is not on me. If conversion happens because of me I would find that odd, unless it was by my example of how to live.
Eric.. All I can say is wow. You do not feel the need to lead those to Christ?
JThomp42, I had to meditate on this. And I find the answer most adamantly no. I do not even do the "knock the dirt from my scandals deal". I devote 20 hrs a week to ministry. I do what I can for widows, homeless and sick. I raise great children.
Not everyone witnesses the same way. I am shy when it comes talking face to face. My witnessing comes through my blogs and writings. Also comes from the sample I set.