As a former Christian turned atheist, I am often asked what it would take for me to believe in a god again. The simple answer is that I don't know. If you are an atheist/agnostic, what would it take for you to start believing? If you are a believer of any religion, what would it take to make you stop your current beliefs in favor of another one?
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One's will has a way of directing reason to justify itself. All we see testifies of a creator yet great lengths have been taken to devise a way around it even though something being created out of nothing is the ultimate defiance of reason.
It's certainly no more in defiance of reason than "God made it. He has always existed because he's magic."
Then everything is "magic." What we see everyday is full of great complexity of design so how do you reason that without a creator. For it to happen purely by chance is magic. I'm just saying I think God has said here I am quite well.
That's the thing. I don't try to reason things that can't be reasoned. I can say "I don't know," and not feel bad about that. Not knowing doesn't make me so uncomfortable that I need to invent a reason to believe in.
If you don't know, then how do you know others are "inventing" a reason. We don't invent a reason when we look at a piece of art and say someone must of painted that. Why is it inventing when we look at a much more complex design.
Bruce, that's my thought, too. If there is a design, there must be a designer. The universe has order - seasons, life cycles, etc. Order presupposes a mind. Hard to believe God came from nothing, but even more senseless to not believe in God at all.
By the same logic: If God exists, something must have created him. And if something created god, something must have created the creator of god. And so on.. You are left in the same paradoxical position I am in. Except with an extra leap of faith.
Not understanding whether God has a beginning or not is not reason for Him not existing. My main point to you Chris is if you want evidence but can't see it, could it be you're not willing to accept the evidence?
I ask for evidence all of the time, and am open to any evidence that can be presented. The problem is that there is no "evidence". The bible is not evidence of anything that humans write things down. Logical spin-doctoring is not evidence.
Chris, exactly. Did we come from God, or from nothing? God is Mystery. But He makes more sense to me than coming from nothing. And yes, it IS a leap of faith. I'd rather err on God's side. If there IS an eternal Heaven & Hell, why take the chance
JMcFarland in the context of what we are discussing, what part of the complexity of design in the creation has to do with the Bible or spin-doctoring. We can discuss mindless answers Christians sometimes give but then that's another discussion. :)
Bruce - if it weren't for the Bible which claims that god created everything in the first place, what basis do you have for claiming god did it - and how would you know anything about him/her/it at all?
J obviously you don't except my argument that the creation is full of complex design that points to a creator that people have drawn that conclusion for millenniums apart from the Bible. The Bible is only the result of a God who explains himself.
It's not that we atheists are willing to accept evidence, it's that you're not giving any. Your inference is that If A exists, then B must have caused A. Which is true. But then you jump to the definition of B as a "god," This is a logical fallacy.
nature and the earth only point to a creator if you presuppose that one exists. by refusing evolution and buying into the misconceptions and outright lies that fundamental creationists use to try to discredit science, the apologists spread their lie
Chris it's an assumption that the creator is greater then the creation, to say nothing did seems the greater fallacy.
J, I have searched for someone to debunk these so called lies and found no one. They all argue on philosophical terms,
Bruce - all you have to do is google it to find the rebuttals, so I doubt you've spent much time trying. Christian apologist arguments for god like TAG or Kalam ARE arguments relying on logic problems, so it's normal to receive logic rebuttals
J I didn't say there weren't any rebuttals. I just said I haven't found any to scientifically debunk them. A few come up with different interpretations of the data but no real proof to go with it that it's the only way to interpret them.
You can't get a chicken without an egg and you cant get an egg without a chicken - so where did it evolve from?
Bruce - you want scientific rebuttals to logic arguments? How does that work?
The chicken and the egg? Really? That's what you think evolution is/teaches? You've never actually examined it, have you?
J your apparent position that Creationist only have logic arguments and no scientific ones I think is totally unfounded. Unless you think that all the arguments for Evolution are not scientific either. It's not the logic arguments I want rebutted.
So you want scientific rebuttals defending evolution. They're everywhere. Evolution has nothing to do with atheism. Have you considered asking a scientist or an evolutionary biologist?
JMcFarland,"misconceptions and outright lies that fundamental creationists use". Let's try it this way. Prove that statement.
yeah, I can't do that in 250 characters. Start here. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/gish-exposed.html or here http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/04/04/crea...
If you look at some churches you'd think all he knows is the two step shuffle. :) I think God would love to dance with you. Are you ready to get up and dance with him?
Okay but I still demand the salsa and the cha cha. If he doesn't know those he isn't god. :P
With God all things are possible. The real question usually is are we willing to accept Him not purely on a basis of everything being on our terms. Relationships need to be mutual. I mean is it really about the Cha Cha?
This answer says it all. I was raised in a religious home and had to open my own eyes and discover my own truth - and that was freedom. I never felt more alive or more myself.
Who are atheists to say that their unbelief is any more right than the beliefs of "religionists?" They "learn" their unbelief as much as Believers "learn" their belief. Evidence of Science? Science is the study of the created, not the Creator.
Who are believers to say that their beliefs are absolutely true, not just for them, but for everyone, without even being able to prove or demonstrate them? I don't "believe in" science the way that you believe in god. I understand it with evidence.
Some of us atheist actually learned both, as many of us are former Christians. We just got tired of lying to ourselves. Religious beliefs are not at all on par with reason. This is an act of desperation. So sorry.
JM, you seem to think that Science & religion are opposed. They are not. I believe in evidence, too. But who are the ones who cannot "think outside of the box," so to speak? I just believe there is more to life than what we can know from Science.
You don't always need evidence to know what's right. Many criminals are not convicted because of lack of evidence.That doesn't mean they are innocent. Its like 'He is a real magician because I can't figure out how he does his tricks!'
getitrite: Who's desperate here, really? Those who believe in an all-powerful Being who loves them? Or the control freaks who pretend that God doesn't exist, because if He does, they might have to admit that ultimately, Someone else is in control?
So according to you, atheists are control freaks? Do atheists come door to door too convert people, or do we just express our views in public forums? Why do you get the right to free speech to insult us without giving us the same?
@ JM: I apologize for the apparent insult. Just realize I didn't mean that the way you took it. I think most of us are control freaks to some extent. I have to leave it at that 'cause it's too involved (not enough room in these comment boxes. Argh!).
Hey J. If you feel your free speech has been restricted to insult us believers, then please feel free to insult me all you want if that's what you need. I know a loving God.
So you really believe Christians go door to door to insult people?
No, I think Christians go door to door to convert people because they're convinced that there way is right, and have little to no respect for people who think differently and ask not to be bothered. I have no desire to insult anyone. Challenge, yes
Do you know about the Placebo Effect?
It's a method in which a fake substance believed by the patient to be a drug has effects similar to actual drug. I've seen people cure themselves by faith in God, and they believe God cured them. Faith is power!
@ Amazing Thinker
A woman can become so obsessed with wanting to become pregnant, that she actually misses her period, gains weight, and has morning sickness. This is science.. People believe, "No explanation, therefore, God."
I didn't say it was God. What I meant was, God being real or not doesn't matter, it's faith was gives you power. I don't claim the existence of God, I haven't seen him/ her, I just choose to believe. I can't claim or deny his existence, no one can.
That's still a religion and I don't follow religions, I only take what I like from them . Like if there is some teaching in Buddhism about peace and meditation or kamasutra from Hinduism, but I don't follow them. That makes me non religious.
Agnosticism is nowhere near a religion.. Agnosticism is like Dr. Pepper.. Its not Coke, and not Root Beer..
Agnosticism is "without knowledge or certainty" of a deity. Atheism is without belief. It is possible (and likely) to be both an atheist and an agnostic. The definitions, however, are often misunderstood or misused.
What's funny.. The Wiccan belief is more "believable" than any other religion.. Now the magic stuff is rather meh.. but Nature being a God or Goddess is really not that far fetched.
It does sound funny, to trade one religion taken on faith for another, lol. I always thought so. But I don't see magic as supernatural, I see it as rooted in nature and psychology. I believe everything has a natural, scientific explanation.
There are a lot of good people that are Wiccan. Some of my good friends choose that belief as being a solid with them.
When I say a miracle I get to say what the miracle has to be.
Most things called miracles are simple improbabilities but improbable things happen every second somewhere.
I don't understand how asking for evidence that what people say is true is arrogance - especially when it's something this big and important? I don't understand how people CAN just blindly believe without proof.
Do you look out of your window in the morning to see if it's raining, or do you have faith that the sun is shining?
You missed my point, I guess... which is to say that not everything is explainable. Science cannot answer all questions, because Science is, by its very nature, the STUDY of creation. It is not the answer to that which it seeks. It is not the source.
I didn't say anything about science. I guess you missed my point to. Why believe in one religion - and reject all of the others - when none have any conclusive proof of ANY type. Including yours. To just "believe" seems contrary to thought.
Like I said in another post, everyone believes in SOMETHING. You believe in your unbelief (strange as that sounds). As for one religion, there can only be one true religion. How can they all be true at the same time? Truth cannot contradict itself.
But you can't demonstrate that your beliefs are actually true. You just believe that they are. The whole point of this question is why.
Very involved issue... can't fully answer here. Why do I believe? A very small part of the answer is because I yearn. If I yearn, there must be a reason, & if my beliefs satisfy that somewhat, must be a reason for that, too. No room to say more.
and how exactly did you decide where your yearnings were pointing to, when billions of people yearn to a different god - or no god at all? how did you reach that conclusion? Did you just pick one, or go with the one you were taught due to geography
How did you reach YOUR conclusion? You see the dilemma: who is right & who is wrong? The bazillion $ question. I guess we must all struggle with that & do our best with it. Meanwhile, all we can do is respectfully disagree as to what truth re
I don't have a conclusion. I think, from over 15 years of study, that it's unlikely that a god exists, and I think the christian god is self-contradictory, which limits the possibility that it's correct. Believers on the other hand, are certain.
Indoctrinated regurgitated testimony, blindly stated as if it makes some kind of sense. In other words, you have no understanding of certain things, therefore God dunnit.
Getitrite, I'm not going to dignify your first part with a response. But as to the second part: "you have no understanding of certain things, therefore God dunnit"... I ask you... how do you explain things you don't understand?
It's ok to not have an answer to everything. Some things we just don't know.
Indeed, Thomas, you are right. That's kind of my point. The fact that we don't know everything suggests that there must be Someone who does. Does anything happen for no reason at all? And if there is reason, there must be a Mind behind it all.
@Cherihut, Why do I need to explain things I do not understand? I simply state that I don't know. Unlike believers, who allow ignorant charlatans from the past to control their minds with absurd primitive concepts parading as truth. How Disturbing.
I've done this many times thru my seeking yrs. I think praying for spiritual guidance is great advice; in time we're led to the right path (me personally, I was led to non-Xtian path when I did that; I think we all get led to where we need to be).
Good point.. Now of course, this does go both ways. I think it does take examining the evidence objectively with an open mind and testing it for oneself
That is the way I live my life. I don't concern myself much about what to believe. I instead focus on what to do.
If you can believe anything at any time you want to, like you claim - can you choose to NOT believe in gravity and then jump off of a building? Your post leads me to believe that you think you can. So can you?
Of course I can choose to believe that gravity does not exist, the same way I can believe that unicorns exist. It is a matter of freedom, isn't it? We are born with freedom and with it comes to believe in anything we want to believe in.
so if you chose to believe on a whim that gravity didn't exist, would you trust your belief enough to jump off of a building?
Many people die on what they believe on, be it stupid things or not. I know that you know that I would not choose to do such a thing because, first of all I did not say that I did not believe in gravity, but the answer to the question is, yes.
interesting. It is my opinion that you don't simply choose to believe something. You either believe it or you don't. Sometimes beliefs can change when introduced to evidence, but I doubt that a majority of people just decide to believe something.
True, true, but choice is always there in our belief or actions. Because in the end I would rather die believing than to die not believing because believing gives me purpose/reason. It is just my opinion however.
how does believing in something unproven give your life meaning or reason?
If believing does not give reason to life, I don't know what would. I don't have the answer to everything, everyone does not have the answer to everything.
There are a lot of things that I don' t know the answer to. It means that I don't know, not that my life has no meaning. I don't have to find an unprovable "god" in order to have meaning. Doing so for me diminishes me, not build me up.
Since you've been asking me questions, It's my turn to ask you. Why would it diminish you, if you start to believe in something, may it be "God" or a "god"?
Because If I ever believe in something again, I want to make sure that, to the best of my ability, I know that what I believe in is true. I care a great deal whether or not my beliefs are true, and if they can't be proven it's just a hope, not more.
I've known many people who have died, both theists and atheists. Some of both were afraid. Most of them, however, regardless of what they believed, died calmly with a smile on their face. There was no discernible difference between them.
Please remember, some who say they believe are not true believers while some who do not believe have last minute revelations.
Yes....the No True Scottsman fallacy rears its wonderful head. I knew it was only a matter of time. Contrary to popular belief, there are, in fact, atheists in foxholes who do what it takes to live rather than taking time out for prayer.
Your post brings up a point: some seem to think God is a vending machine - you put in a prayer and pull out a prize. I think of Him rather as a Father who loves the children He created. We don't always understand what's best for us, but He does.
I believe I said they are more like agnostics because they are unsure. You sound like a true agnostic. Isn't what you call unexplainable is an assumption. How do you know it's unexplainable?
Mony, you say "...Scientific fields show that nothing happens by accident." Exactly! If nothing happens by accident, there must be a REASON! Only a mind capable of reasoning can create for a reason. Hence, God, the Author of all reason, exists.
Just because things don't happen by accident is no reason to take a giant leap of faith and make up Gods to assuage the dissonance in our finite minds. That's totally flawed logic, don't you think? Jumping to illogical conclusions is not reasonable
I think he wants to believe that most atheists are agnostics. In fact.. no they aren't, if they claim they are atheists, they are. Atheists are a little more in tune than you may think.
Getitrite, as I said, "nothing happens by accident" is to say that there must be a reason, or cause, for things to happen. How is it illogical to believe there is a Creator that is the cause? To believe in nothing is even more illogical.
Because it is all a fabrication. It changes with the times. We discover more planets than our own. Oop, god created those, we discover we are a blip in a large galaxy, oop.. god created that too.
Ashleign, your argument is no argument at all. What does our ignorance have to do with the fact that things exist? They were created whether we are aware of their existence or not. But there is still a "Cause" for their existence.
Because your god created us and only us, nothing else. He created the heavens and the earth, he said nothing about Mars or Jupiter, but since we know they exist now, oop.. he created them.. because how else did they get there?
@Cherihut, you don't seem to understand that since you assert that there is a creator, you must also assume that something created the creator as well...or did your god just "happen by accident?" I admit, I don't understand what caused everything.
Ashleign, what believer in "my" God ever said He "only created us"? Christians have always believed God was the Creator of the entire universe. It was never some kind of an "oops, we need to add that in" kind of a belief.
Bruce Feierabend my point is that everything IS explainable, we just aren't capable of comprehending some things so we turn to God as the explanation. I am not Agnostic as I have very strong convictions but I would accept if i was proven wrong.
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
Perfect comment!! JMcFarland that is quite possibly the best quote I have ever seen and thank you for making me aware of it!!!
For clarity when I say agnostic I don't mean someone without conviction. An atheist's conviction is there is no God, an agnostic believes it can't be proven either way and for the most part it's unimportant or insignificant to one's belief system.
Bruce, I don't think you understand what an atheist or an agnostic is. I label myself as an atheist agnostic. Atheism/theism speaks to belief. Gnosticism/Agnosticism speaks to knowledge. They are two different things that I think you have confuse
Getitrite, I don't assume that something created the Creator. I believe He just always was. It boils down to the fact that it all had to start somewhere. The difference is, you refuse to put a name to the cause of it all; I call that cause God.
I cannot express, exactly what I want to say here, due to limited characters. So I will be writing a blog about how Christianity, plagiarized other religions. Furthermore, how Christianity, excuses itself. Follow me :)
Cherihut, I understand why you would come to that conclusion, but why would God be exempt from the laws of your own logic? And how do you, then, jump to the conclusion that this God is none other than Jesus Christ, with no evidence of ANY God?
Getitrite, God IS exempt from those "laws" for the simple reason that He's God! There has to be a First Cause outside of everything. I understand how it's hard to believe; it doesn't make sense to us. But there is no other explanation for creation.
This argument is never going to end. We are just making assumptions. No one can claim the existence of God nor they can say he doesn't exist, no one knows. It's your choice to believe or not to. Religions always lead to this, they separate us.
Assuming that there was a first cause and then making the giant leap from first cause to "god of the bible" is a logical fallacy that has been debated, debunked and steamrolled for many years. It's just making assumptions and arguments from ignoranc
JM, why do non-believers so often resort to calling believers "ignorant"? 1st of all, it's rude. 2nd, sounds awfully defensive to me. 3rd, untrue. Many of us are well educated & have studied - some have high honors, some even renowned scientists.
I don't think you understand. The argument from ignorance is an actual logical fallacy. It doesn't mean you're ignorant. It's a part of debates all the time, yet you've only seen the insult where no insult exists. Look it up.
I know what ignorance means - but the truth is, we'll probably never "prove" God from Science. He transcends Science. He doesn't need to be proven. Prove to me that He doesn't exist. Why do Christians always have to be the ones to prove something?
I'm sorry, but you still don't seem to understand. Look up the "argument from ignorance" and see that it's not an insult, please. And YES, I went to college for theology, thanks. From a very large, reputable Christian college in California.
OK, I looked it up just so we're on the same page. No, I don't think that absence of evidence is proof of it. Yet I don't disagree that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". 2 different ideas there. No room 4 discussion here. God bless +
I watched Ancient aliens yesterday. It got me thinking if everything our ancestors told us is not a fantasy, may be some of it is true, The information may be altered with time, so I will learn Sanskrit to read Mahabharata, write some hubs may be.
So true. I struggle with finances because it makes me rely on God to help me out of tight spots. If I was rich I prob would have forgot him. thankfully he has blessed me financially this month and now I realize that he was the one who did it 4 me
That's nice to know. We all struggle with finances. I hope your situation improves. :)
Oh yeah just over the last 2 months we got our mortgage (2nd) paid off and was also able to get more financial aid for my daughter. 2 things i don't have to worry about. While that is proof for me, another person would not consider that proof to hi
No way to give up Christ. I was brought up an atheist. Evolution is not fact. What you do with Christ is up to you. If you want the truth Ask God To Tell you honestly.Try reading the Bible ctitically.Find out whats in it for your self. dkingsham
You're assuming (rather erroneously) that I haven't done that. It's unwise to make baseless assumptions.
Can you think of any other aspect of your life where you believe something before you have evidence, our you don't get evidence at all?
Proof is in the eye of the beholder. We may both be able to see the color red, and yet we could disagree if it should be the color of your kitchen.
The universe is self-evident, we can't deny it exists. Why does it exist? That's where the line is.
That's the difference, all right. I don't feel the need to insert a god for things I don't know.
doesn't the Bible say NOT to tempt or test or question god? Every time I say I've asked for evidence, I get told "god doesn't work that way"
Asking God for evidence isn't necessary for the believer, but that doesn't mean evidence can't be asked for.
"For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." - Matthew 7:8.
I have asked. I asked when I started doubting. I asked when I started questioning. I ask constantly now. I got nothing. Ever. So no, that verse doesn't seem to be true. Yet Christians tell me god helped them find their car keys. Makes sense.
People rely on coincidences. If you pray all day that something good will come to you, and it does, it's praise god. The problem is, people stop giving themselves credit, and give credit to the non-explainable.
I can't help it if you're not getting answers, but, maybe you're just asking the wrong questions? It may even be that your questions are accusatory, rather than inquisitive? I don't know, only you and Him know, so work it out. Relationship not relig.
Lol just keep trying until something happens that I can't automatically expiration, so I should attribute it to god? Why don't you try it first with Allah and tell me how it goes. Maybe you'll be a Muslim.
There is no God but one living and eternal God, so praying for answers to any other god or gods is a surefire recipe for being deceived.
"Allah" is known as "the great deceiver" even to Muslims. Coincidence? I think not, yet here we are.
And how do you know? You were just fortunate enough to grow up in a culture where christianity is predominant, and out of all religious possibilities it just happens to be the only true one? Convenient, don't you think?
Actually I grew up in Southern-California, a state that prides itself on its diversity. Growing up I was exposed to spiritualism, pagan religions and witchcraft.
It is only convenient that I chose the bible over religions, rather than a religion.
Yes, in a country that is predominantly Christian, which is my point. It's not a coincidence that people are likely to be a Muslim in predominantly Islamic countries, and in the us you're more likely to be a Christian than any other religion.
JM, so explain conversion. There are many people who "used to be" believers in one religion or were non-believers, but they are converted to another through an internal conviction, even risking being shunned by those they love. Why?
Why? Because they felt something compelling that changed their minds. There are deconversions, cross conversions and failed conversions all of the time from/to many different religions. Does a Christian convert to Islam because it's more true?
Oh, your, god. this is getting heated.. Julie.. Awesome as always.
So to you, my conversion is simply a cultural/regional thing, and not necessarily a genuine conversion?
You're missing the point entirely if you think that, and clearly do not know me well enough to say that is why I believe what I do.
JM, I was responding to your point that most people stick with the god of those around them. OK, I tried to fit the rest of my answer into this box. It won't work. They really need bigger comment boxes. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.
No, I'm in no position to label your conversion as anything. You're a complete stranger. You can't discount the fact, however, that culture plays a large part in religion, and that people born into place where one belief is prominent tend to follow
Peer pressure isn't a reason to believe in God. Culture might influence religion, but, the bible isn't a religion. There are many religions based on it, but I can't do anything about what a single person, let alone a group of people believe in.
Yes, I've heard the religion vs. relationship argument/debate before. It depends on definitions. If a religion is defined as the belief in/worship of a divine being, then the Bible is a religious book focusing on one specific being. Fact is fact.
Sure, the bible has religious ideals, information which effects the daily lives of people who believe it. However it is only when people get down to interpretations of scriptures, a "religion" is then born into them by their own thoughts.
By definition, a religion is a set of beliefs by which individuals or groups worship, follow or adhere to guidelines as believed to be passed down from the divine. Do you think you're somehow outside of this definition?
No, I am not unique or special. My 'religion' is what it is, based upon the bible.
My point is that the bible isn't a religion. By itself, the bible is just a book. It is what we do with it that matters.
Ah, yes. Michael Card, a Christian singer (you may not be familiar) had a song with the line: "Could it be that questions tell us more than answers ever do?"
Indeed. In fact, Jesus Christ Himself often answered questions with questions.
The question to the ultimate answer comes from a book, the answer is 42.
The problem with WJS is that nobody has a clue; the first writing about him was 40 years AD and not by anyone who ever met him, assuming he ever existed in the first place.
In other words, the old saying holds true: "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, no explanation is possible."
It may make you feel better to assert that I was never a "true" Christian, but as a complete stranger you cannot make that judgment on me our my life. I do not make similar baseless assertions about you.
if you say so and insist, then who I'm I to argue...it's just hard to believe that a true christian turns atheist, considering I was once an unbeliever myself...really no offense intended
You do realize that dozens of current atheists used to be Christians, right? Even pastors, missionaries and biblical scholars? I'm hardly alone. Do you doubt all of them too?
I'm curious as to what was the "thing" that made you stop believing. I assume you have a whole list now from your bio, but what initiated it. And then, what was the reason you originally "truly" believed?
well, everyone has a story...I'm sure you too and those you cited. We are all entitled to our decisions and convictions...
Bruce, what began the process for me was attending Bible college, learning Hebrew and Latin and treading the entire thing for myself. Things snowballed from there over a period of about ten years.
It is troubling to read comments that confirm the rigid indoctrination of the human mind...supplied by religion. This false world view is completely closed to reason, and based on nothing but fear of authority.
getitrite, sorry but that comes across as a extremely narrow and rigid view you have.
JMcFarland, learning Hebrew and Latin started it? Don't see the correlation.
Reading the Bible in its original languages and studying for myself some of the "evidence" that a lot of pastors present as truth while in Bible college started it.
A regional flood, isolated to one area. Not a worldwide flood. The confirmation of a single flood does not make the commonly held biblical story true.
True. A great flood appears in many of the ancient mesopotamian mythologies. So there is a good chance that such a flood happened in that region, however it does not prove a particular piece of scripture true.
For me, I feel there are a lot more reasons to believe hence I believe. I think there may be more searching for reasons not to believe and those arguments have become more prominent or socially promoted.
The decision to believe or not to believe is not social. It is personal. Those that TRULY believe in something cannot be swayed by promotion. Beliefs are created by attraction, not promotion.
Bruce - if you claim that there is plenty of evidence for god, and you can demonstrate god's existence to me - message me. The email option is available on my profile, and I would love to hear it and examine it. Again.
That's the argument from incredulity and the argument from ignorance, both of which are logical fallacies. An atheist lacks a belief in a god, but I also dislike religion - for the most part.
Cordelia, I admire your fervor. I want to say the same: that nothing would cause me to denounce God. But as a human I am susceptible to temptation. I simply pray that if the temptation is ever there, I will be strong, & that God will sustain me.
God would already know who was going to be a "believer" and who would not because God knows all that was, is & ever will be. What would be the point of having us here for such a reason when he would already know the outcome? This is not logical.
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