I mean why spend time over something they say they do not believe exists? I don't believe in global warming, maybe a wrote a hub sometime explaining why, but then I moved on. Before I came to faith, I never gave God a thought, why would I, why would any non believer? So what's the fascination with something you don't believe exists?
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Did it ever occur to you that atheists don't believe in Zeus, Thor, Osiris, etc...either? Do you believe in these gods? If not...you are an atheist. Also, Christianity is dominant here in the west...of course it will receive the main criticism.
I can't believe you just said that! I'm an atheist?? I believe in the God of the Bible without believing in Zeus etc. The very definition of an atheist is a person who does not believe in any deity. I did not know I was debating a 12-year-old.
the definition of atheism is literally "without theism". You do not believe in Zeus, so you are atheistic in regards to Zeus. You do not believe in Allah, so you are atheistic in regards to Allah. Atheists are simply without belief in one more god
Asa, you asked in the last sentence of your answer above why atheists "spend time hurling insults..." So...how is calling me a 12-year old any different? I guess Christians are allowed to hurl insults when defending their beliefs?
Want some history? Christians were initially called atheists by the Romans because they did not believe in the Roman pantheon. It's history, and it further proves our point. Insulting us doesn't make us wrong, but it does make one look silly.
Atheist - noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
You do not have an answer, so you are denying all terms and definitions. Nice try.
from the latin: Without THEISM. Literally. Here's a Christian source who proves my point: http://www.christianpost.com/news/christians-are-a...
Asa, would it be accurate to say you deny and disbelieve in Zeus/Allah? If so, then by your very definition you are an atheist to people of those religions. This was already covered, yet you ignored it. I guess you are the one lacking answers...
When I was a boy, it was common to see a carthorse struggling to pull a heavy load of coal for the master. The eyes were shielded and directed by blinkers. Were all the carthorses christian, I wonder?
Well when I was an atheist, I treated anybody on my doorstep selling something equally, I stated my lack of need, thanked them and said goodbye, never thinking of them again, unless I found I needed their product.
You have just as much faith as any religious person. For example, the theory of the Big Bang… you have never seen this happen or have any evidence, but you believe it. Everyone has faith, especially atheists.
Asa, you clearly do not understand atheism. Faith requires an OBJECT...you believe IN or ON something or someone. Most atheists believe what can be proved. The Big Bang is still unproven as far as I know, but it is a good guess.
Atheist cannot prove the Big Bang or any other origins of the earth argument (such as everything got started when a rock got struck by lightening). They take it on faith that this happened. Everyone has faith.
Do you have trouble reading, asa? I agreed that the Big Bang was still unproven. I won't see it as fact until evidence proves it. As you can see---no faith is required. I'm content to wait for evidence.
Asa--The Big Bang is a testable theory and is accepted through out the scientific community. Evidence points to the BB as the beginning of the universe 13.9 billion years ago. To argue this equals arguing against the speed of light.
Thanks, cj. I'm learning new things every day. Where is the best place to read about this?
Robert---Really fascinating stuff. I pulled this link up from NASA to get you started. The big discovery was two scientist working for Bell labs that accidentally found the residual effects. Good reading.http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-are
Very insightful and well stated/
peeples, no one should think you less human for being an atheist, if anything you are more human, being less spiritual!
Marriage is a particular term associated with God, ad specifically a man to a woman.
Civil partnerships fulfill the needs.
It's associated with a God, because you believe in that god. Marriage is a piece of paper that entitles both partners to equal rights to each other and their belongings/benefits recognized by law, a god should hold no relation to law.
"an atheist might want to talk about it so as to spread awareness"
As in evangelising to gain converts you mean?.... just like any other 'religion', except it's a religion of disbelief!
No, as in correcting wide spread misinformation and outright less about atheists and atheism. That is a far cry from evangelism.
agua--That you believe in a different god than a Muslim, you are the atheist. That I believe in one less god than you, I am the Atheist. I believe in the sanctity of of human life, the dignity and promise of man. You are the unbeliever.
CJ the answer there is that we all will find out who is right or wrong when we die, or if one is an atheist, possibly not even then.
We make our choice and stand or fall on our decision.
JM: not really both seek to educate the opposing opinion.
I don't find a lot of Christians seeking to educate. I see them trying to proselytize and convert by whatever means necessary. If someone thinks I eat babies because I'm an atheist, I am going to educate and correct them. No conversion.
Agua, your statement, "we all will find out who is right or wrong when we die," is very telling. You see, we are all on the same level of knowledge when it comes to death---but you (as a Christian) would say you "know" (guess) according to the Bible.
JM "If someone thinks I eat babies because I'm an atheist, I am going to educate and correct them" I don't think you will find many people who think that. Generally Christians should feel concern for you, over your atheism, not fear.
As JM said, by 'spreading awareness' I meant 'correcting misinformation'. My goal isn't to convert people to atheism, it's to prevent theists from using us as a scapegoat for the world's problems.
Aguasilver, " Generally Christians should feel concern for you,..." is the most self-righteous, arrogant statement, indicating that you have it right, I have it wrong. You wonder why I discarded christianity?
Johnny, you don't have to receive their concern, I am illustrating that if a Christian was NOT concerned for you, and your eternal soul, I would doubt their actual understanding of what Christ came to do, and their obedience to His commands.
aqua--I find this quote from James Madison fitting and responsive to your assertions, "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
I find this quote from James Madison fitting and responsive to your assertions, "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
....and that answer the question?
You waste your ONLY life to discus an absurdity?
Agua, I dont know why you equate discussion of a topic with devoting ones life to it. I could spend all day talking about the color purple, it doesn't mean I have devoted my life to praising the color purple. Wake up, this is the internet
I could spend all day talking about the color purple, it doesn't mean I have devoted my life to praising the color purple.
That would be an equally sad waste of life, why waste time? in fact I will kill the question as there are no answers
You realize you are wasting your life by telling other people that they are wasting their life right? So you are either incompetent or just being an internet troll at this point.
Not to mention, the conversations amuse me. They're fun, and it's a fun and interesting hobby to have. As soon as it stops being fun, I imagine I'll stop. In reverse, though, why do so many believers target and start conversations with us
"......predominantly Christian with elected officials trying to push their interpretation of Christian morality on the entire population."
If that's true then the officials are obeying the wishes of the majority, which is called democracy.
A Republic Democracy exists to protect the minority from the will of the majority, and these elected leaders are breaking the establishment clause to pursue their agenda. No, it does not have to be tolerated or supported.
You are a good man Robert. I feel so much better to feel your heart and not your doctrine. Higher blessings Bro.
"A Republic(an) Democracy exists to protect the minority from the will of the majority."
Good luck with that, it's like a sheep asking the wolves what's for dinner!
" No, it does not have to be tolerated or supported."
Agreed... got a plan?
It still does not answer why you would be offended at a nativity scene or a Cross. If you are certain God does not exist, you would not be offended any of that.
I'm not offended by them. I want them to abide by the law and not rely on Christian privilege
Asa, your simplistic reasoning shows ignorance about law and civics. An atheist may rightfully be offended if a nativity scene were set up by Congress on the Capitol lawn. A Christian should be offended as well if he understands separation of C &
Robert the Bruce - typical of someone who does not have an answer. Vilify your opponent. Atheists have taken Christian to court over more than nativities on government land but also on their private land. Slick answer though.
Think what you will, asa. I don't agree with everything those atheist groups do, but the US government was set up to be run in a secular way. No religion was to dominate the country through the laws. Some things are changing for the good.
The entire Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and nearly every document of early America is based solely on Christian and the morals laid out in the Bible. If you don't read history, don't make comments about it.
Asa, you just don't know what you are talking about. Please put down your ABeka history book. The founding documents are based on reasoning, independence of thought, etc...just because God is mentioned does not mean its based on the Bible.
I totally agree with you Asa.
The morals contained in the founding documents are not exclusively Christian. Can you name any that are only found in the Bible? If not, your premise is discredited.
Robert... can you name any other religion that clearly comes in to play as far as our forefathers?
Im pretty sure I asked Robert this question. Deism is such a far fetched idea. Do you have proof?
Proof that several of the founding fathers were deists? Yep. Try looking it up. It's not exactly obscure or hidden. It's even in their own writings if you bother to read them.
Deism is still a part of Christianity. Their beliefs just differ as many denominations in Christianity differ.
No, it isn't. It rejects miracles and the supernatural, as well as the trinity and infallability of Scripture. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
That is not exactly denying God.
No, but Christianity does not have a monopoly on accepting god. Many religions do. That doesn't make them all part of Christianity, which is what you originally said.
Like it or not, this country was founded upon Christian beliefs and ideology. You as a history major should know this Julie. Unless of course academia is leaning towards political correctness.
JT, I'm not denying that the founding fathers were influenced somewhat by the Christian religion...this was dominant in England and the colonies. But that is a lot different than saying all the founding documents are BASED ON the Bible.
Except everything you've claimed so far about deism and the founding fathers had been incorrect. So why should I accept your assertion? Does it mention a creator? Deism claims a creator. But that one reference is all you have. Nothing more.
I don't think you understand the distinction between possibly influenced by and based upon.
That goes both ways Julie.
No, pretty sure that I know the distinction.
Agree to disagree
@ JT42 : "Agree to disagree." Meaning, " I will not consider in depth any other argument if it does not concur with what I already know (believe!)."
Johnny: Meaning, " I will not consider in depth any other argument if it does not concur with what I already know (believe!)."
Are you sure that's not a two way street?
Agua, are you going to address the rebuttal to your shoddy "research" in response to Rachael Tate? Or are you just ignoring that because I called your bluff?
Agua, often I have shown that I do recognise it as a "two-way street," it is the ardent christian who wants it to be only one way!
I know Johnny, it's just that you only mentioned one side of the street, folk could be confused into thinking it was one way traffic! :)
Off to bed now, early start, maybe someone will answer the question tomorrow?
Well the only involvement I see mandated in scripture is to pray for those in authority and trust that God allows the right person to rule.
We get the rulers we deserve.
Best pray for the right ones, with wisdom, virtue and honesty.
aqua---Deuteronomy Chap 17--- and shalt stone them with stones, until they die. "Trust that god allows" What happened to free will. Is that what happened to the Germans, he did not allow?
It's obvious you don't have a very good grasp of history, CJHUNSINGER.
As the man said, i am always willing to take a lesson or give one. What would you like to teach me.
You cannot "shove" your beliefs down anyone's throat. You cannot force someone to believe in something they do not. Your whole comment is a joke.
Asa- You are loosing your demeanor there Asa. This is always an indicator of a lost argument and no where else to go. Take a deep breath and this conversation should probably end, as there is no where to go from here.
What you seem not to understand is that most atheists and agnostics don't "refuse to believe" a god exists. They by default remain so because the evidence for a specific god is low or non-existent. Why don't you believe in Allah?
Robert , I see the same 'lets change the subject' approach in Muslims who get cornered.
I do believe in Allah, he's a desert god used by Satan to deceive 1.8 billion people.
Unfortunately 10-15% of them are also murderous, the rest are peaceful.
Not so fast, agua. You know what I was asking. Do you believe that Allah is a god...that he is the supreme being who created the world and who will reward Muslims for being faithful?
Not in the least Robert, I know Allah is not God/Jehovah not the supreme being, just a copycat god set a task of deceiving those 1.8 billion souls, but still a minor god, empowered by the words, deeds and actions of his followers.
Ok. Then for some of the same reasons you do not believe in/fear Allah, atheists and agnostics do not believe in your God. There's no verifiable evidence that either the God of the Bible or Allah is (1) real or (2) the only true and supreme god.
Whatever makes you feel good Robert is OK with me, I sought, I found faith, I received evidence.... God seems not to want or need to prove Himself to those who demand proof first.
A broken spirit and contrite heart He will not deny, but froward....
For an all loving and caring deity, seems somewhat selfish of him to ignore people who genuinely wish to believe in him.
But I digress...
So your god created the human mind to be reasonable and logical, then demands that we be unreasonable and illogical when believing in him? If this is so, please stop referring to him as loving. This is not the work of a compassionate being.
I apologize that you don't seem to be getting the answer that you're hoping for, but that doesn't mean that no one has actually answered the question. Many of us have. Not liking the answers you've gotten doesn't mean you haven't gotten any.
Well put, Rachael. Welcome to Hubpages.
Hi Rachel, here's some food for though!
GERMAN SCIENTISTS PROVE THERE IS LIFE AFTER DEATH
Agua, a little bit of research shows this "study" to be a hoax. You might want to brush up on your research skills or was this an intentional lie? Besides, near-death experiences are not the same as actual death. Nice try though.
Robert, did I say it was proven or reality?
I said it was food for thought, however there are plenty of NDE accounts out there if you choose to look for them, you can discount them, or believe them and it makes sense to discount them as an atheist.
Why the childish word games? You presented the "study" to lend credibility to your beliefs. No, you didn't outright say it was proven, but you still used it (erroneously) for your agenda. Also, I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic. See my Q about NDE's.
Robert, you accused me of lying, so that's not a word game?.
If you are agnostic why even try to answer a question that does not apply to you? - I know why you are seeking confirmation or denial, however neither will be found here, ask God. :)
No, not a word game. It's evident that you either (1) deceitfully used the fake study to support your cause or (2) or you don't know how to properly research something. Which is it?
Robert, I saw the article, could not be bothered to waste time 'researching' it, posted it as a discussion piece and really could care nothing about what you think, believe or not believe.
You have not answered the question I asked.
You are irresponsible to post a flimsy story to prove a point. I can see honesty is not one of your strengths. My answer---I answer these Q's to help reveal error for my own sake and for others. Satisfied?
I answer these Q's to help reveal error for my own sake and for others. Satisfied?
No not really, as all you have done is sniped and quibbled, and insulted me, which is OK by me, if it makes you feel better about not knowing.
NDE is proven.
I have answered your question as stated. It's unfortunate that you don't like the answer and have chosen to whine about it. But that's not my problem. If you are up to it, please see the question I posed today about NDE's.
I am going to assume you mean NDE that involve instances of "heaven" and "hell" are proven (source that you actually care to verify?), since it is painfully obvious NDE's happen all the time Agua. Daily in fact.
I wonder if God has taken out a patent on that Cardiopulmonary Recitation Machine. Maybe he's going to write some new poetry or hymns - like music to our ears!
What do you mean by peace of mind as an agnostic?
Agnostics couldnt care less one way or the other is what I would assume is what Edi means. I would have to agree
Maybe, but I hope editionh has a change to answer. I don't think most agnostics "couldn't care less." I think they have come to realize no one can prove it either way so they have ceased to be dogmatic either way.
peace of mind means no dependence on the idea of god positively or negatively, no need to praise no need to reject.
Johnny, being a Christian is defined by John 3 16:19, and believing that you are 100% right is essential to the choice believers make.
By that criteria, you must be considered wrong by ANY believer in Yeshua, but it should make no difference to you.
....and with that belief of self-righteousness christians have changed the world, often not for the better.
On your criteria for sure I am 100% wrong, but you are right in one thing: It matters not to me.
Oh dear, now you are making me late for bed... not self-righteousness, none of us are righteous, it's Christ's righteousness that we stand under, hidden in, saved by, sanctified despite our selves. Nite Johnny.
Never mind Agua. A bit of hilarious entertainment might help you sleep. Good night.
The dominant religion in the WORLD and the United states is Christianity.
Is that why there is such a mess?
No cj.... Christians have become targeted by EVERYONE. Including the second largest religion Islam who unlike Christians are still living in the dark ages. And do not give me that nonsense what Christianity has done in the past. Islam is the problem!
JT, is there a reason you are shifting attention to Islam? Islam is the furthest thing from a problem within the US.
link.... do you even know what is going on in the world? WOW!
Clearly you have problems reading so I will repeat myself. Within the US, not the world, what problems are being caused by regular Islamic people? Feel free to provide news sources and such so I can read up on it.
Just wait and see link. And remember I said it!
Plenty of people have said the world was going to end on several dates over the years. Still waiting for that to, I feel like this may be something similar.
JT--It is still early and you are already getting upset. I did not point to the savage history of Christianity, but if you are to hire someone, would you not want to know their history?
I posted a question for you.
link.. it is not my place or anyone else to say when the world will end. Im just saying that there will be a shift in the world as we know it. Genocide is being performed against Christians in the Middle east. This their ultimate goal.
Do you plan on getting back on track at all JT? I think you are the only person on this entire thread to have brought up Islam for little to no reason at all.
I'm right on track about Islam. Link, seriously have you been hiding under a rock? This is not said in a hateful way. But, you seem so confused and uninformed. I would suggest educating yourself on Islam and Sharia law.
JT--You are right here. Islam is a militarized religious belief and, as such, is justified in what ever action or destruction it deems necessary to achieve a godly kingdom here on earth.
I never said you were incorrect with what you are saying, has your inability to read properly blinded you to that?
What you seem to be missing though is that this thread has nothing to do with Islam. So again, do you plan on getting back on topic?
Link... why be so condescending? Not that you care, but I lost a lifelong friend today and I do not feel like going back and forth with you. CJ asked me a question, I responded. That is it. And yes I can read link.
You brought up a random topic no one here, as I have seen, was talking about then implied I was completely ignorant of said topic when I never disagreed with what you said. Yet I am condescending?
Sorry for your loss, but that doesn't excuse anything
I would not expect anything less of you link. I will ask you the same question; can you not read what CJ asked me?
Thank you for your condolences.
Unless CJ says otherwise, where in that question did you see anything relating to Islam? You answered the question in the first sentence to then specifically target Islam directly after.
Link... do you like horses? Because you sure like to beat dead ones. Let it alone! SMH
Your hypocrisy is amusing JT.
And now you call me a hypocrite for what reason?
Still talking JT? You sure you dont like to beat dead horses as well?
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