I would say that 8 out of ten times when discussing proof of god with a theist, they quote the Bible. In my perspective, the Bible is the collection of claims about the christian god, not the evidence for it - and all claims require evidence if the desire is to convince someone else. If the Bible is proof of the christian god, by the same logic, shouldn't the Koran be proof of Allah? Yet Christians reject that logic in the case of Islam, while simultaneously using it themselves. Using the Bible to prove the Bible claims is circular logic, isn't it?
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Agreed. Truths in the Bible like historical or archeological facts do not make all of it true, and you can't use the Bible to prove what the Bible says is true without circular logic. Good answer.
That's very true my friend. We cannot say that God exist not just because the bible prove it but because we in ourselves definitely feel the presence of God in our lives.
JM: Prov 28:1. Read Simon Greenleaf! Blanco: Amen!
Jesus cannot be denied to be the originator of the Christianity. It takes a name that he bore when he was of the Earth, he was the only one that took the name Christ. If one can look deeply into the books of history, you cannot make a mistake of sayi
muthiri--No mistake. Truth is better served with objectivity and scrutiny. Bias has a tendency to promote an ignorance of events and a denial of reality.
You're wrong. Much of the contents of the Tanakh was compiled by the men of the Great Assembly, put together in 200-250 BCE, a task completed, and canonized in 400-450 BCE, and has remained unchanged since that date.
The pagans (All non-Jewish, Egypt
What do you think about moses.?
Someone testified to that portion of the Bible. There are a lot of reasons to disbelieve that account, but also many to believe it. Geography looks right and the timing is right. And the occurence of leaving Egypt looks right.
Eric--What 20 billion people? This claim speaks well to the rest of your position. Do you really think a bible (which one) would be accepted in a court of law to validate the existence of a god and which one?
I think Eric meant 2 billion Christians in the world today. The largest religion in the world.
I like the way cjhunsinger made statements and gave dates, as though they were correct, but everything he said is incorrect. Making up stuff to prove his point. All lies
Those Scribes, Pharisees & unbelievers had no "come back" because what you have stated is true!
I find it interesting how you assert superiority over someone because they did not come to the same conclusion as you. On top of that, you tell them they have made a mistake.
God asserts the authority, I simply say what He tells me.
I know atheists have made a mistake, how could I not tell them?
That would be unkind, but once told, they can continue as they choose.
So god apparently deems it worthy to tell people such as yourself to tell others not of the same faith that they are wrong, already knowing that they will not believe without any proof.
I guess curing cancer is less important...
Saving people from eternal separation from God is obviously more important important than curing cancer, which is curable anyway with THC oil among other things.
Atheists obviously are uncomfortable with annihilation, but are nihilists.
With that logic, i wonder why you probably wear a seatbelt and take care of your overall health.
I wear a seat belt because it's the law, however I am old enough to have been driving before they made it law, during which time I did not wear a seat belt.
God takes care of my health, not been ill for years, God is the best 'policy' to have.
Best policy indeed. I'll remember to ask if that's true if I ever meet a terminally ill patient and why your health seems to take precedent over theirs.
My health takes no precedence over any other persons, I just have a better 'doctor' who is not limited by science and white coat medicine.
Anyone can consult Him and He can heal any disease, but you do need an appointment, faith and trust in Him.
You dont actually live In reality anymore do you?
Oh yes, I live very much in reality, just not yours, you rely on worldly things that turn to dust and anyway cannot help you, and then bitch at people who have a better 'reality'.
You seem to begrudge all believers relationships with God.
Good question, Agua
Thanks, .... no answer, and I guess there is no answer to be had.
I wish there were one, for if they would truly examine WHY they are so fixated on believers and have to keep trying to shake our faith, maybe they would better see their condition.
You have him 95 minutes to answer, and then decided that he couldn't? Are people supposed to be on your schedule?
And, jt, when atheists agree, you say "the buddies are together again" should the same be said for you and all Christians?
For once we are in the right place at the right time. I hope this is a trend. Christians need to have a voice. You people far outnumber the Christians on this site. This is why you swarm. To try and convince one another you are right.
I realise that sometimes we have lives to lead, but he replied to my last comment in minutes, likewise me 5 minutes later.
Now I am off to bed, and then work, so will be out for 16 hours or more, plenty of time for an answer.
You can also answer?
Jt: What are the statistics and ratio of Christians to atheists on this site? Christians to people of other faiths? How do you collect your data? How was it tested and confirmed? Or is your bias just showing again?
Umm, ever think that I was out working as well? I replied within minutes because I had some time to myself, and then I went back to work. Get real Agua.
As for the question, I dont begrudge anyone. I ask people to back up their claims. Never happens
agua, how do you explain the terrible things that happen to Christians (cancer at a young age, car accidents, etc.) if it's as simple as God just healing you and keeping you healthy?
Aime: "how do you explain the terrible things that happen to Christians..... and keeping you healthy?"
Can't answer that in 170 characters!
Maybe I will do that as a hub, or as a question reply, when I get back from work!
This is the proof! Here we have link, JM, and Aimee all joining in to bash agua!
Is asking questions, which is all aimee did, consisted bashing? All I did was point out that it was unreasonable to put time limits on the response of a perfect stranger and expecting them to somehow know it. Neither are bashing. No proof.
Pffft..... This your MO. You ALWAYS gang up on the Christian just because they make you wonder about your own ideology.
So is it fair to say that rather than you and Aqua happened to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, the two of you were ganging up on an atheist? Wouldn't that be your mo? Or is it a double standard for your "side"?
Yes.. it just so happens that I noticed agua and his "great" ideology and didn't see it fair that he was being bashed by you people. Give me ONE example where the Christians are bashing an atheist. It is always the other way around.
I consider the way you refer to atheists as "you people" as disrespectful. I consider the things you regularly say to many of us could be considered bashing. You call it defending your beliefs, but if an atheist does it, they're bashing you.
And again, why do you feel the need to debate about something that you do not believe in. Do you think you are going to convert Christians to not believe? All of you are wasting your time. God is real!
I talk about it because it's fun and I have a history in both theology and history, and I like the discussion. I'm not trying to deconvert anyone. Why do you argue? You're certainly not saving any souls here. You seem to enjoy baiting people.
People do not save souls. Jesus Christ does if you accept him.
So if your aim is not to convince anyone of the "truth" that you claim to have, why spend so much time arguing about it? You demand answers from us repeatedly, but you don't seem to be able to answer the same question - or stay on topic.
My wish is for everyone to be saved. But, if we even mention God on here we are immediately bashed.
JT, the truth is you see the existence of atheists as bashing. You think you can get away with saying anything you want to us as "defending" what you believe in, but anything we say you consider "bashing" you personally. Its hypocrisy.
JM... Have you ever thought how many people you have influenced not to believe in God? Their blood is on your hands. As a Christian we are to spread the good news of Christ. Where does it say that an atheist must spread hate towards God?
you intentionally bait atheists looking for a fight and an opportunity to minimize and dehumanize us. I ask sincere questions because of a genuine interest to understand. There's the difference between us, and everyone can see it. Goodbye.
This is not true. I take up for my God and I am continually bashed for it. I truly hope you see the truth one day JM.
Have you ever considered that perhaps the reason people talk to you in a way you think is "bashing" is directly related to the way you talk to them?. You reap what you sew, JT. It's sad that you can't see or recognize that. I feel sorry for you.
I'm done with you, JT. AS you've recently stated - on your questions, you can delete whomever and whatever you want. Well, this is my question, and I would rather talk to a genuine person than one who just wants to play games. Goodbye.
Calling someone out on their BS, which consists of telling people they are wrong but their lives are worse (aka pathetic) compared to his is considered ganging up. Yet when 2 others join to agree with him and not contribute anything, its not.
By the way JM, "You reap what you sow." not sew. I thought you were familiar with the Bible and its verses? Censor my answers all you want. This just means you are intimidated.
Attacks on minor grammar mistakes. How mighty of you JT.
So I guess you are intimidated by me, you know with all my comments you have censored? Guess you were intimidated by Ally as well.
I do not believe I was addressing you link. NO is the answer to that. Im just tired of your babbling. JM is just intimidated and come to think of it, your whole group must be intimidated by me. :)
Link, no personal attacks.
Deleting his comment is irrelevant!
I didn't particularly view that as a personal attack, but I understand the logic of it.
Link- I would strongly advise you to just ignore him. He lives for the argument and trying bait people into getting banned. Let him think whatever he wants, eventually he will get bored taking to himself. I don't care what he thinks about me.
JM.... You do not know me personally. How can you stand in judgement of me? Wow! Just wow!
Oh I realized that weeks ago. I enjoy how he backs himself into corners, cries how people are attacking him, then vanishes and/or deletes his questions so you cant see the comments anymore.
That's why I started taking snapshots :D
God help all of you. :)
Kind of like that actually, 3 comments above
Link, if all he can criticize is the spell check on my phone attempting to get a reaction, it's him that looks bad, not me. He even argues with other Christians who disagree with him. I think he just wants attention. He won't get mine.
Obviously they weren't true Christians, being open minded and all.
Link - duh. Want a really good laugh? In a comment I deleted since it was unrelated, he voted for the Mormon as the best answer. Should have saved that one for posterity, but it made me chuckle to see a fundamentalist root for a Mormon.
Thanks agua, I am genuinely curious to see your answer. :)
JThomp- my name is LITERALLY right in front of your face, I'm not sure why you insist on spelling it wrong. Repeatedly.
Aime, I will do a hub on that subject, on my drive to work I was given lots of info to include, BUT I work in a very intense workplace, and concentrate 8 hours a day, so I'm worn out most nights, but I will do it, and post to you when done.
I want to say for the record that I don't find JT to be condescending or belittling. He speaks the truth. I think some OTHER people are the ones spewing the hate and they just don't realize it. Leave JT alone!
Lybrah, you dont understand the most basic of things when you read them, or even when they are explained to you in the simplest way possible, so I can see how you would think that. We will just ignore that JT jumped into the conversation I guess.
Thank you Lybrah! But, I am afraid it is like talking to a brick wall. May God bless you always!
Sure, lybrah, and it's just a coincidence that you two happen to agree. Telling people how they truly feel or what they truly think is insulting. Admitting he behaves badly would mean admitting you do as well. Can't have honesty, clearly.
Good morning JM. :)
God is the reason for our existence. You have to have a relationship with him. The Bible is how we know God and his ways of doing things, his attributes. you can't say you know anyone if you don't spend time with them..
Chahoon, yeah you can't just make blind, blanket assertions without proving them. Not only that, but you're making a lot of blind assumptions, too.
She can make those 'assumptions' because she (or he) has found the faith that leads to the proof, you just cannot accept that, but it's YOU who need to prove the bible is NOT proof of God, as YOU are making the allegation (believers know the truth)
So if I found faith that led to me believing that space dragons exist and told you as such without any proof would you believe me? I would imagine not so wouldnt it be crazy for me to demand proof from you that they dont when I haven't proved it yet?
No Link, I may even ask how I could meet them, to prove it for myself, or maybe just say nothing as I had no desire to meet Space Dragons.
But I would NOT insist you prove it to me, or badger you daily trying to disprove them.
Why are you afraid?
Now lets throw in the twist and say that my faith has showed me that these space dragons created mankind and deserve worship or else they will eat your soul as fact.
And afraid of what exactly? Im scared of death to a degree if u mean that.
Why would you be scared of death, it's just oblivion in your understanding?
So why be afraid, here one minute, gone the next, with nothing following, least that's what you seem to believe.
I used to believe that, I was not afraid.
I am afraid of it because, to a degree, I can imagine ceasing to exist. Under certain circumstances, it's a terrifying concept.
Are you not afraid of death because you have your god, or simply because you never actually gave it any real thought?
When I thought like you it never bothered me, like Woody Allen I was not afraid, just did not want to 'be there' when it happened!
As a believer I know I existed before life in spirit form, and will again after, so whats to fear?
If I were wrong...
Its one thing to think that, but to assert it as fact is something else. Either way, there is some form of rejecting reality going on there, since one cannot know for certain until they die.
Exactly Link, one day we will die, and either know we were right or wrong, or in my case, not know if I was wrong.
If you were wrong, and subconsciously suspected it now, deep down, I could understand your apprehension over death.
I say that I have no way to know the answer and you still imply that deep down I know the truth and am afraid of it
Good day Agua.
According to scripture, Ezekiel tells us to warn the wicked. If someone is following the doctrine of man instead of God, they must be warned. see Ezekiel 3 AS was not acting superior, you just feel inferior
Amen! One "must" embody the "Light!" Too much knowledge makes the "flesh" doubt! Remove self (flesh) and one might "see!" That's exactly why I stopped working on my Master's Degree in Theology - did not want man's thinking interfering with my belief
The only people that are afraid of knowledge and facts are the ones who are not as confident in their faith as they claim and fear they may be proven wrong.
JM: I read mostly lies written by man not filled with the Holy Spirit (Num 23:19)! I love to read opinions of others otherwise I wouldn't be on HP! However, trash in - trash out!
Once again using an appeal to emotion or fear. Realistically speaking, if the Bible is the only evidence available, then admittedly the god described within it is the worst communicator imaginable, to the point of incompetence.
There are probably hundreds of different versions of hell from all the other gods that are thought to exist. Technically speaking, if you believe in god you have even less of a chance of being right than an atheist does at being wrong
Link.. is that a risk you are willing to take?
I dont really care. I am not sure why fear is a factor here for an all loving god. It seems you are equally willing to chance angering a god who might exist/be more powerful than yours because you were too scared to consider possibilities.
Final note, if other gods have anything like the first commandment, you are taking much more of a risk than atheists are.
Seems you are fine with that though. To each their own.
Demanding proof of God is a tactic often used by atheists, yet denying the nature of God. They won't accept that the nature of an answer should be congruent with the nature of the question. Thus, God being a spirit, only a spiritual answer would do.
Believers do not fear God in the manner you refer to, they recognise that the choice is between a loving God and a doomed demonic force who wishes to drag all he can into damnation with him.
Some people just choose to ignore the choice.... sad.
Yes, very sad. I think their confusion comes from who they think they are trying to convince. Christians or themselves.
As you both are choosing to ignore the possibility of other gods and versions of hell existing. People who are not open minded are sad indeed.
The new thing for Link is "the fear of God". In biblical time 'fear' meant 'respect', similar to the respect for your earthly father. In your life time have you heard of a person killed because he didn't obey God? You don't have to fear God.
Link... the ONLY thing I am choosing to ignore is you.
And yet the person who this answer belongs to is afraid of eternal damnation due to not believing. It seems even people of the similar faiths have differing opinions about god, Ben.
Link, you must be a mind reader. How would you know that somebody is afraid when the person has not told you he is afraid? You are assuming the person is afraid because of your preconceived notion of God. Is that right?
Probably because I can read Ben. There isn't much wiggle room if I take that comment as face value, but if I am wrong then Pet is more than welcome to correct me if he comes back. Otherwise, fear is exactly what is implied.
Pete is being pragmatic, rather than fearful, and he made that choice based on his personal experience, which is certainly different from yours, Link.
Nice talking to you Ben.
What you are saying would make perfect sense if anyone was denying that the Bible existed, but no one is. Without corroborating evidence and independent verification, however, there is no way to know whether or not what it says is actually true
As a former Christian and collegiate theology student, your theory falls flat. The Bible seems to only be convincing to people who already believe it's true or suspect it might be. It is still not evidence. Not believing is not rejecting btw.
How can anyone presume to know an all powerful god that is beyond understanding?
It seems that you have an incorrect understanding of atheists as well. I Lack a belief in any God. I do not reject them. You cannot reject something that you don't believe exists. I do not claim no gods exist.
Jay would not the breath of life be enough to convince people? May I ask why you are a former Christian? Believe me I know how hard it is to walk with God. What has driven you away from the relationship with God? It is clear you know the word.
The breath of life no more convinced me that the christian god exists than it convinced you that Allah exists. Or Zeus. Our life creating pixies. The argument from ignorance is not a convincing argument for any God.
Cynthia - forgive me for answering on JM behalf - you asked why she was a former chrisitian - taking the time to read her hubs (whether you agree or not), will provide you an answer that cannot be fit into 180odd characters.
Thank you, jlpark :-)
A lot of people are deaf to God, and the definition is not a belief in God, but a belief in the Christian God. To them other religions are atheists.
Atheist have knowledge, but without power.
When that claim is said to be absolute fact is when it requires evidence. If I said space dragons exist as fact, would you believe it with no proof?
Also, you do realize the wording of a question is more important than the ending punctuation right?
Who said it was an absolute fact? I have never run into any Christian that ever professed their faith is an absolute fact.
You deserve my punctuation remark because you were wrong. Just take the "L."
Wrong about what, exactly? Plenty of Christians proclaim that their faiths are true here on hub pages without ever backing it up. In fact, a few of them are here on this thread.
But I am wrong it seems...
Like I said earlier if you said space dragons exist as fact, I would want to start a relationship with them, so that I could be sure it was the right decision to ignore or believe in them.
I would NOT pester you to try and stop your belief.
Link10103. Writing a question without question mark is wrong. I must apologize first because I thought your comment was from JMcFarland and I was saying he was wrong to ask a question without a question mark. Secondly people do not have to prove
Agua, whose belief am I pestering in an attempt to stop? You keep saying that but haven't elaborated much on it.
That is more a collective statement (as in 'an unbelief of atheists') because atheists tend to gather where scripture or Yeshua are mentioned, and keep taking digs at peoples faith or belief.
Whereas right now we seem to be having a decent chat! :)
I would imagine that those places are where atheists are directly being attacked, or truth with absolutely no evidence is being claimed.
Christians have no obligation to prove to you what is to self evident to them. Religion and spirituality is a person truth you are asking for scientific proof. Are we all created equal. No we are not, can someone have perceptions you lack? Why not
A theist has every obligation to prove what they believe to be true when they deny the validity of other religions and assert that they have divine knowledge.
If it's simply "I believe this", then no they do not have an obligation at all.
Link10103, am I correct you want proof that God exists?
So your saying a person I love is true, but I can not comment on other peoples love or have an opinion and say your relationship with your wife is not true because I have to prove to you my love for my wife it Valid first and foremost?
I want the people claiming that their god is true and those who don't follow said god will regret it to actually provide some evidence that that is accurate. Otherwise it's only a bunch of BS being imposed upon others. And no, i dont secretly believe
You already know these is no proof by the standard you seek, yet you keep asking. The very nature of faith is quite personal. How is it "imposed upon you and others?" By your parents making you go to church? Does any salesperson impose BS on you?
Amp, i already said if it's simply an opinion there is no need to prove anything. Is there a reason you are ignoring things to continually attack what I say?
You are ignoring key questions. You said people "impose things on you" yet fail to support your claim. You say it is "BS" when I have been very clear it is "Truth to them" and you can conclude it is BS because it doesn't pass your test, fine Whoopi
I was addressing your other comment first.
Its BS because it cannot pass any test to prove its validity. Its BS because it instills fear in small children that lasts until adulthood. Its BS because it's used to cement power and control over others.
Your conclusions: 1-Not valid for you so can't be valid for anyone. 2-Speculative, no facts. 3-As if other models are clearly better? Everyone is happy if your on the right side of authority. Again, explain how it "Impose things on you" so far FAIL
Amp, you do realize there are character limits to comments right? When religion begins to affect laws and schools is when it starts to impose upon people's lives
There is separation of church and state. You are not in a monarchy. Everyone has a voice due to Dem/Repb there are plenty of wrong thinking people and it is not just because of their religion. Stereo type much?
Speaking of stereo types, can you think of any openly atheist politicians in the US? Can't really say I am well versed in politics, so a second opinion would be nice.
Link, the reason there are few declaring atheists in government is possibly because you represent approx 2% of the US population, whereas Christians (professing or practicing) represent 80%.
Nothing to do with suppression, just selection and choice.
So you are saying there is no way an atheist could represent values held by a Christian, Agua?
Link, your representing very poorly for the atheist cause. Agua is showing wisdom, providing basic facts, and respectful discord. We are approaching the 8th hole and you sir on third base. My Atheist friends are going to scratch their heads.
Amp, its hard to take what you say seriously when you ignore, distort, and invent new meanings to whatever I say. However much I disagree with Agua, he at least makes sense most of the time.
Link10103, in the first place you can ignore anyone who tries to impose his religious belief on you. He can do nothing to you. Secondly, because of the limit on comments, I will post my response to your demand for the proof of God.
Link you are IMPOSING ON ME things that are false, made up, illogical and made up. Are you going to start telling me Space Dragons exist? You are being delusional and making things up that are not based in fact. Stop pestering others 4 their faith
Unless you can point out which of my illogical and false beliefs I was imposing upon you with my questions and purposely out there hypothetical Amp, its been nice talking to you.
So you are saying there is no way an atheist could represent values held by a Christian, Agua?
Not at all Link, just quoting political reality, people vote for who they can feel comfortable with, we cannot change human nature.
God brings assurance.
None of that is proof that the Bible is actually true. As a master's degree seeking history major, I don't need to be taught history. Also, historical anecdotes are not evidence of anything other than anecdotes, especially when untrue.
murtiri--My academic background is in Political and religious philosophy so I may be wrong here, but I think Alexander the Great lived 300 years earlier and was Greek, not Roman, Are you thinking of the Roman Procurator Alexander?
"Alexander the great slaughtered all the Jews in 70 AD" False - Jews are still around, so Alexander could not have slaughtered ALL of them! This is a good example of a false statement.
JM:"Three in 4 in U.S. see the Bible as the Word of God!"gallup.com 06/14Why would so many believe in "a book" for such an extended period of time, if they have no personal proof? "Something" must have occurred in their lives for them to believe?
One has to wonder how many of those people have actually read the bible front to back, rather than have the good parts spoon fed to them by their church. Seems to be a lot of former Christians that became atheists/other after doing so.
It's called an appeal to popularity, and it's a logical fallacy. In the middle east, 99.9% see the Koran as the word of god. By your logic, they must be right, too. Being told something is true is not a good reason to believe it.
Jag: All "good parts!" II Tim 3:16. Not "Cinderella" must read n the Spirit! Jn 4:24.Believing not looking for proof or factsJM: They're being prepared! Look at TBN moving into Middle East now! "...and then shall the end come!" Matt 24:14. Be ready!
Jesus aid that not all people standing there would taste death before he returned. That was 2000 years ago. They're not alive anymore. The prophesy failed.
When did John the Revelator die?
JM: Matt 16:28;Mk 9:1; Lk 9:27: "...til they see the kingdom of God! Spiritual death! Everything in Scripture should be read in the Spirit! Again I tell you, John 4:24! Religion has not taught this! Start over & read Scripture "In the Spirit
Norine, I can almost guarantee that I've read Scripture more times and in the original languages more times than you have. Again, saying that your interpretation is the spirit doesn't make it true. Your thoughts disagree with almost all I've met
JM: U display interest so HS found you! Ur right Gal 1:6!Man didn't teach me this!Not what I was taught either, but it makes sense if "worshiping in the Spirit!" I'm sure u have read n more languages than I! Too much kills! II Cor 3:6 SD:Jn 21:22
Once again, you don't know what you're talking about. You're typing electronically in the Internet. What made that possible? Knowledge. Learning. Too much wisdom never hanged anything, but ignorance sure does.
JM: Yes, ignorance does (I Cor 2:12-16)! You & I agree on that!
If you agree that ignorance harms, why are you so opposed to knowledge, learning and education? Did you just not like the facts they were teaching you about Christian beliefs and history? Do you go to a doctor when you're sick? Why?
JM: I'm not opposed to knowledge, lrning, or ed that's why I began Masters in Theology, but they taught "religion" which I opposed! Found Holy Spirit is much better Teacher! Look at what He's taught me! U've never heard of It before & you have e
You aren't opposed to knowledge, yet you openly admit that facts don't mix with your faith.
I think there's a disconnect somewhere in there...
JAG: There is a disconnect! Not being in the Spirit! Facts are from men Faith is "believing" the unknown/unproven that is what IS WRITTEN in Scripture!
Oh, I've heard it before - always from people with no background in history or knowledge of how Christianity & the Bible began who somehow arrogantly assume that after 2000 years, they're the only ones who are right And disagree with everyone.
JM: I'm growing! Increasing in grace! That's why "unheard of!" Holy Spirit "teaches" and those that do not have a relationship with Him, but can only look at history and/or facts will "NEVER" understand!
Pride corrupt the mind and heart.
Ponce: Don't confuse "truth in the Word" w/pride (Heb 4:12)! Boldness v pride(Acts 4:31, Prov 28:1)! History/Facts=Prov 3:5-6! I only state facts from script & if not=foolishness! U call it pride, I call It the Word of God! W/O relationship=Nothi
Great answer Cynthia!
Love, humility, I guess your bible doesn't contain the OT and about 3/4 of the NT.
I don't think you understand, Cynthia. We don't have to disprove the Bible. It hasn't been proven. Until something is proven, disproving it is unnecessary, kind of like God. The burden of proof rests with believers that claim absolute truth
JMcFarland: Read what is said in Bible regarding the signs in the sky & watch the sky! Have you seen the blood moon recently? Read what it says about wars. Is it not true? How could "man" know these things over 2000 yrs ago? Only God thru p
The blood Moon has happened and been documented for literally thousands of years. If it's an eminent sign, your God doesn't know what eminent means, which is strange.
JM: Joel prophesied! First happened on Passover! Who wrote about before Blue Moons before Joel's prophesy? Jesus IS "I AM!" How would "man" have known prior to Joel's prophesy? Come on now! Here's just one proof! Oh ye of little faith!
It's not a prophecy if you see a blood moon and write about it. They've been happening for thousands of years. It's rather common in certain seasons due to axial tilt/rotation.
JM: Who wrote of blood moons first? HS guided Joel! Rev 22:18-19. Oh, I forgot u don't believe in the operation of the Holy Spirit either!
First? The sumerians or the egyptians.
JM: Where's Proof?
Oh, I dunno. .. history? Writings that predate the Bible by thousands of years.
JM: Your attitude toward my belief is "prove it!" Why don't you "prove" your beliefs to me?
Because, Norine, you have not provided one single shred of proof for your claims, you've just made more claims, and I have no interest in doing your homework when you cannot. Secondly, mine are provable, verifiable facts - not beliefs.
JM: I have proof of my beliefs - "Benefits=personal facts!" This is a "personal Spiritual journey" which reqs belief! I'm not interested in history fm MAN (Num 23:19), that seems to be ur concern so I need not do HW! Prov 3:5-6
No, you say that you have proof and claim that your beliefs are true, neither of which constitute facts or proof. People from all religions claim benefits. Are all those beliefs true too? If so, then you're NOT correct in your assertion.
I John 4:1-5 I've tried the spirits and Jesus works for me! If Atheism works for you, so be it! I've tried to explain but it appears you have been given over to "a reprobate mind!" Rm 1:28. Why must u seek facts or proof? Prov 3:5-6 First Step!
You have no idea what I've been given over to. You're just assuming things that you want to be true and then further assuming that they're true. How did you test your "spirit"?
Not interested in history from man...
Norine, you didn't by any chance go to a religious school/was homeschooled were you?
JM: Fm ur writings you "...do not like to retain God in your knowledge..."which Scripture says is a "reprobate mind!" Tried different denominations/religions! All kinds of spirits out there! Jag: School of the Holy Spirit/Jesus! Man lies! Num 23:19
We all must seek facts and truth through proof. Faith is different but just a faith is worthless without deed so is it worthless with some foundation.
Eric: Were u asking me? If so, Facts & Faith don't mix! One must "believe" & have "faith" in Scripture! Jm 2:14-26. You believe, Holy Spirit works changing you from "glory to glory!" II Cor 3:18
Wow Norine, I have never heard that. I cannot understand and know certain facts, because I have faith?
Eric: Facts ("proof" reqd of man/documented evidence) & Faith (Unseen/Heb 11:1) don't mix! Wow Eric I thought u knew what "faith" was??? I'll repeat it again! Facts & Faith don't mix!
Having a book that contains stories do not make the stories within that book true. All of the stories in the Harry Potter series connect to each other, and they make sense, but it doesn't make them true or factual.
erontes--How many years ago and what writers are you talking about? Very few could write.
JM, be reasonable with whom you talk to. Believers have faith, you do not. so from their perspective it is truth. Your method is truth is not shared by them. Why do you have to force your standard on them when they are content and happy?
There are hidden mysteries in the Jewish Tanakh, they aren't just stories. You have to become spiritual to understand them. Harry Potter was written knowing the end of the story. That's not true of the bible. Why do you care anyway?
Julie, you are right, but the Bible is a book with power that not only connect the fact but it can transform life. Do you believe you came from your parents? And do you believe your parents came from stories or theories?
The truth is that evil is winning, and good is losing. It started in the Garden with God not watching out for Adam and Eve. Would anyone set two children loose when there was evil around?
Neither God, Jesus, HS or a Guardian Angel didn't help them.
Satan can't win according to Scripture! Bcuz God is a Jealous God & wants ppl to worship only Him! Yes, He helped them by going to the cross & giving them a choice. He went into grave & preached to them too! Disobedience=consequences!
Give two citations of "God is a Jealous God". I will bet it is only old T and that there is only one. After Christ God is no longer jealous if he ever were.
Eric: Matt 22:37-38;Lk 10:27; Mk 12:30 (NT but still under law)! If to "love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart..." was the first & greatest comm, must be jealous! If filled with the Holy Spirit, you will do this & won't want to do anything
Eric, half right more than one but OT
After Christ we no longer run after other gods? There are as many gods as ever out there. We believe Christ is the answer but many don't. The OT is not done away with, it is still His word.
Eric, the book of revelation is one of best proof that God is a Jealous God. Read and see, how he rebuked the unfaithful churches.
But you weren't there either, jt. And you didn't answer the question. The Bible is the claim about God - not the evidence for him, and there's absolutely no reason to take your word for it.
You are correct JM. I was not there. My comment was what history can we know that is 100% accurate? None of us can. This is where my faith tells me that the Bible is the word of God. It is your right to disagree. You are entitled to your beliefs.
Had bit of a flashback to the Bill Nye and Ken Ham debate for a second there.
And I respect your faith, however, faith is not knowledge. Knowing something through faith cannot be demonstrated or proven, and there's no reason to accept another person's word for it or their interpretation. History is mostly probability.
History has multiple reference points to determine its validity. A volcano erupted 200 years ago? We werent there, but plenty of journals that were uncovered confirm that there was, as well as residue from the volcano.
The bible is only one source.
Link - true. I'm sure there are true things in the bible - but we know they're true, not because they're in the Bible, but because they've been independently verified and tested. One truth, however, does not indicate truth on all of its claims.
I thought HP was a place where you could voice your opinions without being verbally assaulted? People are not being very nice.
Stick around JThomp42 and some of the other Christians here for a while, jfs69...you'll see who really launches most of the "verbal assaults."
You will not see any from me. I have seen the err of my words. Temper is a bad thing and must be controlled. With God's help, nothing but a good example for God from me. I suggest everyone come to this conclusion about their egos :) God bless
The first thing any history teacher will teach you is that all written history is biased depending upon who wrote it. History was written by those who won and religious texts are written by those seeking to convert others.
Rachael: does that mean then, we cant know anything about history?
The bible is part of Jewish history taught in school, and all Judicial Judges in Israel, must be versed in Torah before they take office. And someone said the bible wouldn't hold up in court :)
How is the bible or bibles authenticated as a work of God?
These books can't self authenticate.
No one has ever seen God. They only heard him.
JM:I thought u had a personal vendetta against me but by ur writings u really feel this way! U will never "see" the works of the HS until u "humble urself" "believe" & have "faith" n the Word of God! If u were "terminal" I bet ur attiude would c
So you think I was dying, I would beg your God for forgiveness? That's not going to happen. I'm not afraid of your God or your hell, just like you're not afraid of any other god or hell. There's no proof for it.
JM: I never said u were dying! I said "IF" then u would try "anything!" Doesn't cost u anything - why not "TRY JESUS!" What if ur wrong & I'm right? U-eternal damnation - If I'm wrong Oh well, just rec'd all these earthly "benefits!"
Same could be said for every other religion Norine, why not try all of those as well? Why is it just yours?
What you're failing to realize, Norine, is that you're a) using pascals wager badly, and it's been debunked b) fear is not a good reason to justify belief in something that cannot be verified.
Who debunked Pascal's wager? A man? Fear is a way of submitting to God, you should be afraid.
JAG: I Jn 4:1 "I've tried the spirits!" HS only One with "benefits!" (Ps 103:2) JM: Satan uses every device to "debunk" but HS "knows his devices" (II Cor 2:11). There is no "fear" in Christ Jesus (I Jn 4:17-19) especially in "death" (II Cor 5:8)!
Pascals wager is the worst possible argument for any God as it applies to any God or belief system, and I don't fear your God any more than I fear Allah, Thor or Zeus, but I'm imagining you don't fear them either. I fear one less god than you.
Its a rare sight to see a Christian admitting that god is a dictator/tyrant.
Also, who invented pascals wager? Yep. .. a man.
JM: What questions have I not responded to? Maybe not what u wanted to hear, but I've responded? Scripture is all I have to offer! Anything else, foolishness! Sorry I called u lady! Just read ur bio! Christianity is a walk of "faith!" Not "proof"
Why don't you answer the multiple questions that go unanswered on the other thread on the OTHER THREAD. Those have nothing to do with this discussion.
The Pascal's wager has no mystical or retributive underlay. It's just pure and simple common sense that when you cannot come up with a definitive refutation of God's existence to restrain yourself from being adamant that he does not exist.
Pascals wager says it's better just to believe rather than to risk being wrong. But either a god exists or one doesn't. 50/50. If a god exists, there is less than 1% that you believe in the right one, among all proposed, and there is a cost.
Risking being wrong doesn't mean there will be retribution. In Pascal's view, what harm would you suffer to tentatively assume that God exists until you've found proof that he does not exist?
Ben - if I spend a life, money and time worshiping a god that isn't there and this is the only life I have, I have wasted my one shot. If all gods are as jealous, petty and vindictive as the biblical one, and one is real, I'd be screwed too.
Link, you put words in my mouth. I never said anything other than the fact God should be feared.
In addition, Ben, why is it not more logical to withhold belief until something can be proven true, not the other way around? Is a god not smart enough to know whose hedging their bets and who genuinely believes?
JM: Direct me to those threads & I will respond! What is time, money, this life in reference to "eternal damnation" if we are right?
The guiding principle of the God I know is "to love your neighbors as yourself". Any religion that espouse a fundamental principle different from this is a perversion. Moreover, I don't see how loving your neighbors as yourself can cause any harm.
But I can love my neighbor perfectly fine on my own without a god telling me to because being kind and generous is a good thing to do for societal survival. That had nothing to do with pascals wager.
If I spend my life worshipping God and He does not exist, I've lost nothing. But if I am atheist and He is real, that's eternity in hell for me. See the point?
The point you fail to see star is that your god is not the only one thought to exist
You have more of a chance being wrong than an atheist does, and virtually an unlimited versions of hell to deal with if you are.
See the point?
What if you spend your entire life worshiping yahweh and find out that Allah is the real god? You're going to hell, and your entire life would have been wasted praying to something that doesn't exist. Pascals wager is an appeal to fear. Not reason.
JM, when you have attained the level of refinement that capacitates you to love your neighbors as yourself, you are demonstrating the essence of God which is love. Therefore, the proof of God is found in the fruits produced by your words and action.
No, that wold be an assertion that selfless love is attributable to the god you believe in, because that's what you believe God is. That's a claim, not evidence. It cannot, logically, be both.
A claim can be evidence of many things. It can also begin the inquiry as to why it is a claim.
Let me rephrase. A claim is evidence that a claim has been made, yes. But if I assert that there is an invisible Dragon under my bed, that is not evidence that it's there.
Yes but it is proof that you believe the dragons are there and should inspire further inquiry as we have not disproved the existence of dragons.
Until a dragon had been proven to exist or even proven probable, there is no need to disprove it. The rational position is to withhold belief in dragons until there is evidence for them. Kind of like you withholding belief in any other god.
Our human nature does not bend us toward doing the right thing, that is why laws are made. It's our God-like nature that gives us the ability to love, evidenced by our words and action. You may try, but you cannot change evidence to a claim.
But all you're doing is claiming that it's our God-like nature. That's not evidence. People all over the works with varying or no beliefs do good things for others. If it's evidence for your God, it's evidence for all of them, or none of them.
Evil doings are evidence of evil. Goodness is evidence of good. Proof is a problem for both. Life is evidence for both. The Bible reflects the problems both have with each other. Good and evil are proven time and time again. what of the marionette?
Good and evil are both subjective terms that are dependant on the societal construct of the person discussing them. They're rarely if ever universal
JM that is false and you know it. Murder and worse like mayhem and rape/murder are evil. That is not subjective unless you are very sick indeed.
Murder is not always considered wrong, and you know it. There is war. There is capital punishment. There is self defense. Some cultures think cannibalism and human sacrifice is good. You don't get to judge what you don't like as evil.
There is a difference between murder and homicide. And I am human and can judge what is evil. So let us just agree to disagree on this point.
The Bible is not the claim about God, it is the evidence about Him, because it point on Him. The evidence point to the criminal to prove he is guilty of the crime in the court proceedings.
I believe the reason the bible is riddled with contradictions is because it was written along the lines of a psychic reader. Throwing of a bunch of information until it hits something you feel a connection with.
A circle is not he same as a sphere.
Nature kills, maims, destroys, and causes catastrophe.
Amen Brad! Rad: The reason the bible has contradictions to u is bcuz you must read "in spirit & in truth" by faith! Believing & having "faith" in the Word of God, seeking "truth" with a "pure heart" is key to "revelation!" John 4:22-24; 14:2
The main difference between "other" animals and man, is that the former do not preach self-serving nonsense and they are not "up themselves" with self-righteousness.
J: Man (since so intelligent) better get "up themselves" in Scripture or ..... Worst than other animals!
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