present a different opinion/premise?
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This is true as you have said, But I have works Jobs and never have seen the owner or the CEO ,most of the time it is an manager, and really high figure millionaires may never be visible or have to there employees. This is what I am talking about.
logical fallacy - we know humans exist we see them daily. I don't see a sky being, never have never will. This logically leads to God being a human construct not the other way around.
Precisely, Christin. Kiss and Tales: I can prove there is a CEO or owner by visiting their office. I could see them personally and with my eyes. I can't see your god. Anywhere.
Well that belief is without doubt and truth. Rather you want to believe in it is your choice not to .
But the truth is not against it self,
It will stand when the lie will fall.
People have a deeper reason for not accepting it.
And that is the nature of your belief. It cannot be reasoned with nor can it be proven. It may be your own personal truth, but it is not a fact until proven. Heck, it wouldn't make a good scientific theory because there is no basis in hard evidence.
Truths that stand have evidence, there is no evidence that God exists and if there was deity that created everything "he" could prove himself as a separate entity. The stuff of life itself is in everyone, quite beautiful, no deity required.
The point is you are proof of his existence,
And all things in the heavens as well we can feel the sun. We can enjoy the moon light, and we can enjoy other creations. We touch these.
But there is no proof that we are, in fact, a creation. That any of it is a creation. You're assuming a conclusion and then trying to go backwards to evidence, which doesn't work. You might as well say we're proof of Zeus' creation.
We did not make ourselfs,we were birthed.
And we had no control over that process.
Our DNA is a blue print of information that is programed to detail.,even telling cells to regenerate.,really if that is what you feel that is your right.I see proof
Yes, I was "created" from a sperm and an egg from my patents. Everyone was. But you're putting a god above that out of bald assertion with no evidence for it. I can say I was created by pixies and it means nothing without evidence.
People always say there is no evidence when they are the evidence, your parents birth you from the first pair of humans Adam and Eve. We all came from them not hard to understand. This is explained in the bible . Denying does not make truth.
Don't you understand the irony of what you're saying? You saying that denying it doesn't make it untrue, but saying it's true doesn't make it true.You have to demonstrate and support your assertions with facts. Do you have facts or just claims?
To Parentap. You are the wonderful proof !
You are wonderfully designed, and so are the many things we benifit from the sun does some for us the moon, the food that grows, all keep us living though out generation if that ever stopped then what
Again, those are all assertions. Assertions are not evidence. You're saying we are evidence, but you're assuming the conclusion and just making claims from that. That is not meeting your burden of proof, it's just adding more claims to claims
God can shake your hand and you would be the percentage that said there is not proof.
You have convinced yourself to believe this and this your burden not mine.
I am happy to experience truth.
Peace to you JF no argument.
That's another assertion and assumption that is a lie. You're just admitting that all you have are claims with nothing to back then up.
To JF you have it all wrong I am not the one The heavenly Father shows you.. You can not add life, it is given to you. if it leaves we can not return it , the gift of you being you, and the people you love is demonstrated every day you wake up.
I'll make a deal with you. You pray and ask God to tell you what it would take to convince me. Until he does, you cannot make unsubstantiated claims. Deal?
JF you do not need me to be convinced , if what you have already is not enough then I am sure it is up to him to determine that, he created ears
I am sure you are heard . Good bye.
So you refuse the deal to actually show that what you are saying is true, as opposed to simple, baseless claims and assertions. To me, that says you know your position is indefensible and you've given up but can't admit your error.
There is no challenge of truth it is what it is. Like you know you are a woman so somebody comes along and say I challenge you that belief or logic..
It is not debatable because you stand as proof.
Well, gosh darn it, all you really need is a nice Bible, right? It's the "literal" word of God, straight from all those men and women who actually wrote it. I'm jealous that the voices spoke to them and not me. Proof!
Reference Bible Eze 9:3 and he began calling out to the man that was clothed with the linen, at whose hips there was the secretary’s inkhorn.
Books are written by secretaries of men. The very thoughts of God has been
transported to us.
I wonder how long it takes until someone realises that they are doing EXACTLY what Maggie was talking about....*sits back with some popcorn*
Hope you got the popcorn made... This is my exact point. You can't use a book written by men to prove the existence of a god. The book was written by mere mortals with many agendas. Saying it's proof of god because god said so is a circular argument.
People that disagree have a problem of the subject. It makes perfect sense when it does not to many .the logic is that what you can not see somebody else can. There is a reason for that. Yet that depends on you.
In other words, you take your belief on faith. That's okay. I think you're wrong, but that's my opinion. But don't try to prove it the same way as science and logic. It won't work. Don't make me bring out my Spiderman argument.
No ! Example is there a company? Is their a CEO, Yes, But people will still not accept the memo for no good reason ,when others will because of the evidence that is in the letter is valid reasons , and they were hired as the main one. You exist
You can choose to believe if I exist or not, but given that you can meet me at SF conventions as well as other places, I think it would be easy to replicate the proof of me existing. I cannot go to churches, meetings, or anywhere and meet your god.
You see you are my witness ,and even though you want more .he will give it .but not at a favorable time.
Ummm, Maggie, this is some good popcorn! I sure with this movie came with subtitles though. I just saw a movie about Noah. Pretty good movie, but still based on fiction. Spiderman is more entertaining.
To JF. You are the evidence . you are real , thst the bible clearly says made from Adam and Eve. All things are written and logged in the bible of man's beginning and history.
Or should they just ignore the matter and say he is not The CEO he is just like us. Do not pay attention to that memo! That is just what you are saying .
When that memo might just be vital in preparing for what ever happens down the road. Likewise.
Your reasoning fits your understanding. Example A CEO tells his employee to write a letter of future down turns or lay offs, and pass the letters to other employees.
Should those other employees doubt that employee because of not direct contact?
No, because chances are the employees have seen the CEO in the halls or maybe see him or her in their office or in a giant meeting. There is quantifiable proof of the CEO. You can go to his or her office and see him or her.
We'll said and understood.as example I never have met you either , never have seen your face, or heard your voice, but do you exist? Does that make you none existing because I never have saw you in reality in person.?
I also have your letters on page
Yes, but someone (in this case, me) wrote them. I'm not passing it off that a god inspired them and had me write them. Even so, you can choose to not believe in me. I also told you how you can meet me face-to-face. It can be quantifiably repeated.
You exist no matter the message of who writes . The reasons why he chose to have secretaries is own reasoning as with a common human secretary.
God's glory is more then human eyes can behold. The way it is with the sun .who can keep looking at it ,
Okay, let's say I don't see your god. Does he have a convention he goes to? Can I meet him face-to-face and shake his hand? When I can do that, I'll believe in your god.
Can you touch the sun ? Can you hold fire in your hand, or can you even hold hot ice. Can you even regulate the stars and the moon.
For they are his faithful witnesses , your loved ones hold the many qualities you love. That is in him.
I can see the sun, feel the heat it generates, analyze it, and determine its nature through spectroscopy. I can't do that with your god. Actually, I can hold fire in a fire bundle or even a match stick. The universe is not proof of your god.
Your corresponding with me Maggie is proof of you.
What you see and touch is not your creation but of his.notice the sun does not fall out the sky. Nor the moon, your house was built. That is proof of some ones design. Do you say it made itself
The sun isn't "in" the sky. Our planet revolves around it. Gravitational pull keeps the planets where they are as opposed to the force that occurs (often called centrifugal force) that causes it to push away. No deity needed.
Hubble and other space craft have been to the furthest reaches of the KNOWN universe and still have not found a guy sitting up there dictating anything to anyone. God is WITHIN you and each has a different set of plans. Look in the mirror at God.
Friends why are we becoming so personal about this? This is just an open discussion, we have to open our minds to every possibility. Please make your arguement from your point of view rather than demeaning someone else's.
Parantap Bhatt. the discussion has been friendly and not intended to be personal. We're discussing our thought processes behind belief. Lady Guinevere, are you saying we're possessed? If so, then why does god allow people to murder?
My apologies Maggie for comprehending it in a different manner.
@Kiss and Tales- Yes I have spoken with my own understanding which may be limited from another perspective. It is an outcome of my rationale but i'm open to ideas and opinions.
@Maggie, not at all. We ARE God and WE create our Universe. So be careful with your thoughts and words cuz they become our reality. Possession u cn take out of u. Not possessed at all. It is what we are.
If I create the universe, then I want a dragon. Dammit, dragons should exist.
::Waiting for my pet dragon::
@Maggie, be careful what you wish for. You create...sometimes things do cnot come you you the way that you are expecting them too. Have fun with this one and you will find out in 20/20 hindsight later!
Lady Guinevere, don't be silly. There is no way that I could create a dragon out of my thoughts any more than a plane would fly by my house and drop $10 million. I'm willing to accept you believe in your god, but not that.
@Magge, who said it was "MY" God? I am just putting thoughts out there for you. If you don't like them that is kind of your problem. No problem for me. I was not talking physical things anyway. Law of Attraction...just think about it...
We have been talking about "Why it is that some religionists become quite threatened when atheists, agnostics, & skeptics present a different opinion/premise?" What have you been talking about? What is your stance in this?
Simple the truth of a matter could be presented, but the truth is not everyone will agree or accept it.
That is the truth. That is all my statement and example means nothing more or less
or perhaps mayb u dun wana let go "ur truth", d same way u say v r blinded by "our truth" or perhaps 2blind 2c ur truth. All i'm saying is2 put every belief 2 a logical scrutiny n accept it wen u r satisfied with d logic. no1 is forcn nething on u.
Evidence is surrounding you .but you deny it as evidence , well that is allowed, if God allows it , then I am certainly no one to force
This wonderful gift of thought on anyone, peace.
I certainly believe in being a peace maker , but that may include speaking up when called to, I notice that certain people with degrees or certain status are proud of their achievement, but show a different in wisdom and compassion these are better
Being nasty is an individual trait, which is, empirically, against devouts if you look closely. If someone commits a logical fallacy, you can immediately point that out and definitely should not engage in debate wth them.
True , also people want you to debate truth.
As an example if I say a building is burning .the first thing thought should be am I effected by the danger , yet are you going to debate danger and warning, or who carries the message, this is the case.
D problem with ur argument is that thr is no fire yet u claim d building is burning based on hearsay belief nd expect urself 2b d authority on truth. I'm jst asking to present a relevant proof if you wish to claim the authority of ur truth.
I used that example to say a building was burning. But the reaction to the truth is debating rather it be true . Is there time to debate a fire when life is on the line.? It is like a natural disaster. People are told to leave and they do not .
You are then using very wrong analogies my friend.
Can you really force people to believe, when it really it is in their power to accept or reject ?A professor teaches a class, rather they believe the work or not , he has presented Material he will grade you on.
Its up to you what you do from there
I can poke a professor. Can read and touch the material he hands me and see that its his handiwork specifically.
God, not so much. Odd how that works...
exactly, the same way sum1 teaches that the earth is flat and the centre of the solar system. A teacher can only teach, whatever material he wants, it is our job not to listen 2d words blindly n seek meaning on our own.
I can talk to you, I can see your letters pop up on this site, I can communicate with you
Never seen you but are you real ? The point
The disconnect is staggering...
@link10103 I appreciate ur sense of humour.
@Kiss and Tales u cannot see or communicate with god (if u claim u do, u cannot furnish a proof) but u believe he is real. The point
JF you can say these words all day every day of your life , but that does not change the truth . If that is what you want to believe
I can not make you believe anything different. but I have spoken truth , but you reject truth. Have a nice day.
You have spoken what you think and believe to be the truth, but you haven't bothered with showing that it's actually true. It seems like your position is just to say whatever you want and then run away when asked to demonstrate it.
JF I Presented the proof as you, you rejected that, but what you are after is a argument on HP, that is what and who I respect on this subject . You just do not accept my answer to your satisfaction.
I am not into that .the last post to you in peace
I don't think you're in a position to tell me what I want or what I'm looking for. You said I was proof of a creator, but you have not demonstrated that to be true, you just said it as if your word (an assertion) was true. You have to show it.
Demonstrate to somebody that does not believe in their own existence , I find that a waste of time, and I see no reason to keep replying , this is not my message but I am to share it. Why keep replying when you do not believe in it
You are no special Authority to me or anyone to stop doing anything ,and your name calling fits your own words as you speak . Take your own advise.
Then don't stop doing the same thing over and over again. Your actions mean nothing to me either.
No Lybrah, who do you think YOU are? You are not God and you do not own HP and you cannot go around telling ppl off like you are doing.
I didn't call her narrow minded. I said her actions show narrow mindedness.
If you doubt me I also would not speak by you , would a CEO hire a secretary who would not carry out his dictations ,or letters of intent.
For his company.
We have those letters from the most high.And they are not bias. For they speak to all humans
It is possible that you are right but it is also possible that you are wrong. The same is true for me and everyone. I'm not saying what I believe is absolute it, neither should you.
When a infomation is stored in a computer how did it get there, some one put there , the same with animals and humans , our cells have programs in them leading to our DNA program , that tells everything about us even a exact number of parts we share