A good friend of mine was just trying to dissuade me from my beliefs. And he was quite good and convincing. But alas we agreed that if my beliefs were founded in my faith then arguing was pointless and that it was just the way it is. And likewise I could not "convince" him of my faith. But we agreed that many folks get "convinced" of their beliefs. If that is true we should be able to "argue" someone out of or into their beliefs based on faith. And so I ask the question.
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Well said Christin, that mutual respect is paramount. My friend and I love to try and convince each other of many different points of view and we learn a great deal about ourselves and each other -- and others.
I like the notion of a "contact buzz". And why not? I know I am most receptive to a way somebody walks rather than how they talk. I just love the idea of faith the size of a Mustard seed.
Oh I love that "mustard seed" too Eric. I never heard of it til I was 16 and someone sent me a card saying if I had that much faith and it insulted me but I never forgot it and I went in search of its meaning and now I so love it & their words to
Interesting here that you put faith and religion as being the same.
For the most part, they are; when people speak of "their faith," the majority of the time, they are referring to their religious faith/beliefs. Of course, there is faith in ones fellow humans, but that's not what most mean when they say 'faith.'
Rock music will NEVER die! That's blasphemy, LOL!
Rock music died in 1970 the very moment heavy metal was born, and then its gravestone was ground into dust in 1982 when punk came about.
Rock music still lives in our hearts. Metal ain't so bad neither is punk listen to what they gotta say bro.
Excellent points Paul. It is a long way from proper thoughts to proper words.
But a non-believer's belief is not based on faith. Convincing that person would only require logic (assuming they were a logical non-believer)
Aah but your question was: "Can anyone really argue against a faith based belief?" If someone were trying to convince a non-believer they'd be open to logic and tangible proof. When someone simply says: "I believe" no amount of logic changes them.
We are in accord.
Excellent points. I wonder if I could convince you that you only think you like sandwiches ;-)
This seems to suggest that the belief is wrong to begin with.
@ Ericdierker Belief is not wrong. It can be based on logic and experiences and can change with time. Faith takes your belief at different level. Faith don't need any explanations. May not change with time.
I misswrote that. It should have been "seems to suggest that faith is wrong to begin with." Sorry.
Wow what an on point and great quote. Thank you for sharing that with us.
It is hard to argue with Jefferson. And perhaps sometimes that is the point.
This is where theists get so confused. They think that atheists are attacking their faith, but the truth is that they are defending "the separation of church and state". I don't care what your faith is, just don't try to force others to endure it.
Austinstar, isn't the denial of the right to exercise that faith in public a lack of separation between church and state?
Very interesting. This seems more directed at a religion than a belief.
This is applicable for any belief we've had.Look at it from this point of view, as kids we sometimes fight over whose father is right when conflicting views arise. We may realize he is wrong but still we struggle with the belief we had in our father.
I have trouble with a "one size fits all" notion when it comes to faith. 1,000 religions and billions of faiths.
I applaud your opinion.
I'm not saying what I say is infallible, but I do believe is does happen with a lot. We all face a time when any of our belief comes into question and we shy away from it because we don't want to accept our belief is fallible.
I see your point and agree to an extent. Clearly faith is human and therefor not infallible. In this regard I could be persuaded to alter my belief. Or at least I hope I could.
Jackie this really brings in that personal element, and that is where the rubber meets the road. It almost always comes down to a "to me" or "for me" notion. I think your confidence is well placed.
I certainly do not see faith as irrevocable or unchangeable. In fact quite the opposite.
How do you see faith then?
Wavering, constantly in a state of flux and growth. Very personal. "Losing" and "gaining" faith are normal realities. There is no perfect faith it is subject to the subjective whims of each man. As we are sinners we also lack perfect faith.
I see faith as unshakable belief when it's based on experiential evidence or spiritual revelation. Anyone can argue against your belief, but he will not win, so long as your belief is backed by your personal experience of the truth.
Ben I see your thoughts here but I have yet to meet a man who could honestly say he had absolutely no doubt. Oh people think doubt is bad but it is so human.
Of course doubt is human, but it should not cause wavering. It should focus our minds on searching for the truth, which comes through personal experience.
Ben, "should" not is a long way from "does not". In the real world there is doubt and wavering. Peter is a great example, as is doubting Thomas. To deny doubt is to deny our humanity.
When you realize you are wavering, is the signal that you need to focus your mind on finding the truth. Both Peter and Thomas sought, and found the truth.
Right on Ben, perhaps that is why we are allowed to waver or have doubts, so that we redouble our focus and try harder.
Thank you Lady, this is quite a lot to digest. I will read it again.
What a wonderful answer and one that is true to my own thinking. Being an old hitchhiker I can also say that if he picked you up he was worth listening to. Blessings to you and yours Ed in this new year.
This missionary seems quite versed in his knowledge about christianity, unfortunately had he been so versed about other faiths. It is a nice thing to value what you have and other to make judgement about something you don't even know about.
Earlier where perhaps religion was about faith in our creator, even if we had no proof of his existence. It was a hope for those who had none. Now it has become a business.
It is true all around the globe. Though I do not deny the existence of genuinely religious people who are both tolerant and kind. It is a human trait after all not exclusive to believers or non-believers.
Parantap, could you expound on that comment again? I do not understand it. Knowledge of other religions is an interesting requirement to argue.
Yes Eric I would but there is no space in this section. In short
Jesus= idol of Christianity. If you deny this then understand, you are looking the other religions through the same lens. Buddha and Cow are not idols either, others are based on faith2
"Comparitive Religions 101" Each is different and doing them all by category or allegory leads to misunderstanding at best and conflict more normally. Buddhist faith is Buddhist faith. Christian faith is Christian faith. They are not comparible.
There is an exxcelent site that has all of the religions and their doctrines and such. ReligiousTolerance.Org. It is a must for anyone that thinks their religion is the only true religion.
Strange I have not seen one proclaim that theirs is the only faith -- who also claims to be Hindi or Buddhist? Could there be a reason? Dalai Lama may have something to say about this.
Exactly what I'm saying, they aren't comparable. You have to be neutral to others while if you are appreciating your own. Every belief is based on faith after all. As to Lady Guinevere There can and never will be one true religion.
I know that. We are all part of one.
My friends this humble question is truly blessed to have you contribute so well. I have learned much and am thankful.