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Joshua, ch 6-12 OT. God is the basis for morality? Moved by "holiness" GOD COMMANDED THE KILLING of thousands of men women and children. Genocide. Any pregnant women there? Most certainly. So much for a biblical basis for anti abortion beliefs.
Well Chris,all I can say is you never fail to demonstrate that you are the common man.If you studied these scriptures you'd understand that your interpretation of scripture out of the context of the whole Bible leads to your error. Research it.
You have a problem with evil people being punished for their wrongdoing ... I get it ...
Mmm...and what exactly was the evil committed by any children too young to speak or even do much for themselves, along with any unborn lives that had yet to do anything? Must have been pretty evil stuffs
Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't Elizabeth Bathory, Brian And David Freeman, Nelson Byrdwell, Edmund Kemper, Joshua Phillips, Willie Bosket, Laurie Tackett, Brenda Anne Spencer, Jon Venables, Robert Thompson, and Vlad Dracula once children too?
Military leader gets PRIVATE message from God to exterminate tens of thousands of men, women, children and unborn in land grab with invisible, angry, holy? god as motivational force. Aggressors at least as evil/idolatrous as those murdered. Get it?
Ahh, so your advocating to kill children on the possibility they may do evil stuff in the future Jo.
Sounds legit. Or insanely homicidal. So what was the evil committed by those children I mentioned earlier again?
TSAD, nice ad hominem. Do you have more formal biblical training or ministry than me? You don't know. I took general and immediate biblical contexts into consideration in my comment and my comment stands.Your arrogance is appalling and uncalled for.
Nice,a strawman and personal attack to change the subject.I made no assumptions,you have stated disdain for theologians&called yourself the common man. All I said was"If you studied these scriptures you'd understand"&you don't because u haven
Not a question of "possibly." If they were executed it was because they would INEVITABLY become evil monsters just like their parents.
There was nothing "private" about God's will toward the evil Canaanites. See Joshua 10.
TSAD, you know nothing about me or what I have studied or taught. I looked again at your profile. You have some decent hubs here, but now I know the man a little more. Unfollowed and out of this conversation. Very arrogant and unsociable behavior.
So rather than take steps to either just not create those evil little children or to make sure they don't become evil, god said screw it and ordered hundreds if not thousands to be killed off?
You're not paying attention. Their parents would have raised them to become evil in the very same way they themselves were raised to be evil.
Furthermore, God's love for the Israelites compelled him to act and protect them from their evil.
Ehh...that doesn't really affect what I said though...still sounds lazy.
I'll put it another way then. Would you want God to force you to do anything you don't want to do like, say, believe in his existence?
I never said anything about forcing them. Besides, since this is god, would it not be simpler to change their perspective, rather than purposely slaughter them to then send them to hell for eternity? Assuming hell is in play here.
And just how would God CHANGE their perspective without forcing them? And, no, there is no such thing as a fiery Hell where people are tortured for all eternity. This is not taught in the Bible.
@JOP: With all due respect, there IS a hell that is fiery, and it is mentioned in the Bible that people would be forever tormented. Aside from that, I agree with everything you are telling Link.
Having your perspective changed into wanting to do something is actually different from forcing you to knowingly do something you dont like.
You could say that's being forceful, but not within the same context of each other.
How is it different?
One involves *poof* "I suddenly wish to do good", while the other is the equivalent of holding a gun to your head, forcibly making you do it, and probably pulling the trigger anyway.
You assume that everyone is willing to accept evidence. However, as you yourself manifest, people can be presented with enormous evidence and still refuse to accept it. In such a scenario, God has no choice but to forcibly change that person.
Mmm, terribly sorry that I can't accept "evidence" that not only doesn't make sense but in itself has spawned thousands of different denominations in which the people within the same religion can't even agree upon.
Call it a character flaw...
You're reasoning is a fallacious a dicto simpliciter. It would be like claiming, "Because counterfeit money is in circulation this necessarily means all currency is counterfeit." The fact of the matter is that no religions are the same.
Not sure how that fallacy applies here when what I said was more along the lines of: agree with each other first on whats what and then try to convince other people.
Getting people to convert would be much easier without all the BS.
99.999% of the world is Theist yet you insist on being Atheist. So much for consensus, eh?
99.99% of the WORLD is theistic? Can you provide a source for that please...
Regardless, unless 99.99% of the world is christian, or whatever you affiliate yourself with, you didn't prove anything wrong about what I said. Red herring and all.
Research is a good thing, JoPo. The fact is that, worldwide, 32% of people are Christian, 23% are Muslim, 16% are Atheist/Agnostic/Unaffiliated, and 15% are Hindu.
I was being hyperbolic. The fact remains that the overwhelming majority of the world's population is Theistic not Agnostic or even Atheistic. What is it that you seem to know and the rest of the world doesn't?
Is this the part where I define those terms just to have you say some other definitions that suits your bias? I highly doubt you are dumb enough to think that question makes sense considering their definitions Jo
And please, someone stop the irony..
No definitions required. Nice attempt at a dodge, though :)
I'd really like to know what it is you understand that the rest of the world just doesn't seem to get. The floor is yours.
Yeah, a dodge at a question you are smart enough to know makes no damn sense to begin with but asked anyway in order to either start an argument and/or jump topics...again.
You truly are a master Jo, I'll give you that.
This didn't make sense. Morality's not objective, morals are subjective. During Old Testament times, it was the moral thing to require a woman to marry the man that raped her, per God. What about people that kill attackers? that's objectively immoral
DinoMommy, just like cam, you demonstrate your ignorance of scripture meaning. https://whitedragonawa.wordpress.com/2011/04/02/ra...
Deu 22:28,29 isn't describing a rape because rapists were executed in ancient Israel. What we have described here is a case of consensual sex and a good 'ol fashioned shotgun wedding. (cf. Ex 22:16,17)
Truly excellent! This should be a hub, not for traffic's sake, but simply to make whoever finds it think about the standard for morality.
Thank you Chris.
Jacqui, we'll see if this rant gets a response. Fools walk where angels fear to tread, and I've played the fool before. But I've said what I believe. Good luck with your novel, by the way. :)
And what if the person doesn't have a healthy, fully functional conscience? What then?
That's what we call a sociopath, JoPo. Sociopaths lack the natural stimulus of empathy, and so tend not to play well in social groups (See: Congress). They are intelligent enough to know the rules, but their understanding of them is purely arbitrary.
How, then, do you prove to a sociopath that the evil they commit is immoral?
God based moral code is an empty shell.OT Israel NEVER lived by the Law.Modern Christians are NOT more moral than others.The argument for a biblical,God based moral code MISSES THE BIBLICAL POINT of God's Spirit producing good people from the inside.
So, in your opinion, God forces people to be good?
Joseph, have you ever heard of the fruit of the Spirit?
Galatians 5:22,23. Your point?
Joseph, my point is simple and clear. No further explanation is needed. Just read two posts back for me, then your previous post, then mine, then the Galatians passage. If you still don't get it then drop it.
Joseph,Chris never even attempted to answer the question.He gave no proof of anything,justa misguided opinion.You can'tprove anyone's morality is better or worse without God.You didn't imply anything&he didn't answer anything.smoke&mirror re
I agree with you in your analysis. Another point is: morality does not consider an afterlife, whereas an afterlife is accepted in all religions. Whatever happens in the material world is subject to correction in an afterlife. Bible is contrary.
Chris..pls take NOTE: After 4 weeks, not a single one of the Holier than Thous have even TRIED to reply to my question about Atheists & their children. BECAUSE THEY CANNOT, W/O BEING IGNORANT. Some Christians make them ALL look bad & that i
This is a good statement, but it doesn't answer the question, which is "how can we prove that something is morally right or wrong"...
Why do you have to feel so offended, Paula? Either defend your point with what you know or don't comment at all, I'll tell you that you won't get very far reacting to what you don't like instead of calmly rebutting.
I see you too make an appeal to one's conscience. What, then, of those who don't have one or simply refuse to obey it? How would you prove to that person that what they do is wrong?
By the consequences of their actions. If what they do is wrong, they should be arrested and prosecuted according to the law. If there is no law against it, then they are doing nothing wrong. Unless YOU are judging them and it's not up to YOU.
So because certain jurisdictions allow parents to kill their baby simply because she is a girl, infanticide is moral?
Holey Moley! How did you get what you asked from what I said? Maybe you need a reading comprehension course? I said absolutely NOTHING about morality in my comment, only that illegal actions have bad consequences and that is what controls us.
Peace to you does not seem to fit your militant stance!v Why so aggro Paula?
MarieLB, What "does not seem to fit," is a matter of perception & opinion. Millions of "militants" have fought for "Peace" & justice since time began.A "stance" that allows children to use slang/"aggro" & ask useless questions.U'll mature
You call that morality? So it's OK to lie as long as it doesn't hurt anyone in some way? It's OK to cheat if it doesn't hurt anyone in some way? How do you define "hurt anyone." I't's wrong to defend your life if it hurts someone? You need help.
That is still no basis for something being right or wrong. In an atheistic world, we are all just chemical accidents that exploded into existence. There is no reason why certain actions we do are wrong even if they hurt people. Survival ofthe fittest
Altruism is also a beneficial evolutionary trait--it encourages the survival of a group, and the group's survival increases the chances of your own survival. And it also earns you favor towards your group. Therefore, it is evolutionarily beneficial.
Very well put! :)
Asa, but isn't it interesting that people don't behave that way. All over the world, societies have developed with laws that work very well. The discussion here is purely academic and that fact is demonstrated wherever social orders have developed.
Yes it is okay to lie if something is none of their business anyway.
Otherwise -- that would imply that a person has the right to know everything there is to know about another. That would in turn imply that nobody has the right to privacy.
Very beautiful, intelligent, powerful. Thanks lonestar
That might make sense if civilizations didnt exist before the era of the bible.
But they did exist...lots of them.
The Bible is the word of God, God existed before any civilization and so did morality since true morality must be objective and binding. Objective moral obligations require the existence of God. Otherwise everyone can have different moralities.
You jumped the gun, I think. Some people don't know what it's like to get punched in the face and cannot say it hurts. You're assuming it would because it's someone trying to inflict pain and expecting that reaction. You can't say everyone hates it.
The jumping the gun part was centered around the last part of the comment, not the initial
There are very few people immune to pain/never experienced it before. The majority, like I mentioned, would most likely avoid that pain if possible by default
Whatever YOU think most people would want is morality?Without God morality is whatever each person wants it to be, I want to be punched in the face,so it's OK for me to punch u in the face,that's morality?You really think you've made your case?
Neat red herring. That still does not explain WHY it is "wrong" to punch someone in the face. You and me are just animals that evolved from pond scum that exploded into existence. If I decide to punch or even kill you...well, survival of the fittest!
Morals are determined by the society in question, there are no predetermined morals otherwise all cultures would share them. If a society decides punching people in the face is wrong and that it hurts it becomes bad to do
Or was that too complicated?
That's just an example though. You can't say that is so just because you don't like getting punched in the face. What's the difference between moral right and plain right?
I can't say I understand the difference between the two Phil. Any way you could elaborate on that?
So, in your worldview, boxers, MMA fighters and the like are all immoral?
Boxing is a sport. Both willingly consent that they will be punching each other in the face and accept its going to hurt like hell. Some might think it is, but personally as long as they both agree I don't view it as such, like a good majority don't.
So between those of you who think violent sports are moral and those who feel otherwise, how do you PROVE your position is absolutely correct and their's is wrong?
On an individual level? You don't. Accepted morality is determined by the society as a whole and what actions are beneficial and detrimental to the group, not the individual, which is why there are so many grey areas.
Which necessarily means that the Holocaust, for instance, was moral since the overwhelming majority of Germans at the time approved of the murder of Jews and other undesirables ...
How do you prove them wrong?
The systematic slaughter of an entire group of people is viewed as abhorrent by a lot more people than it was viewed right by the Germans at the time.
By majority alone it was wrong, it was also severely detrimental to those affected.
And let's not forget that only 38% of Germans voted for the Nazi party in 1942, which is far from the "overwhelming majority." And JoPol's statement also happily assumes every single last one of them supported every single action the Nazi party took.
Z,using a straw man again.A%of voters has little to do with the total population which did nothing to stop the holocoast.If the majority didn't approve they didn't express their disapproval which you'd lead us to believe was the majority view?
If society determines morality, then you should have no problem with decapitation of homosexuals (as goes on in Gambia), murder of atheists (as some Islamists do), or with denying women rights. It is moral to do those things in your worldview.
The society one is a part of...
I didnt think the obvious had to be stated. Silly me that I thought common sense was a thing. And unless the vast majority of those populations does those things, it wasn't particularly pertinent to mention
And what if the opposite was true, that the majority of the global population approved of the Holocaust? Would that have made it a moral action?
The world would be a very different place if that were so so it probably would be considered moral yes. As it stands psychopaths think its okay to murder. They are a minority. Is it easier to conform to their thinking or write them off as a minority?
So you'd write them off as a minority? That's not logical reasoning, just a convenient dodge. Atheists are a minority, so you feel the same about writing them off, as a minority?
So, in your worldview, morality is simply dictated by the majority.
Hopefully you can now appreciate why atheists enjoy such a ghastly reputation ...
Im not sure how that would affect an atheists reputation Jo. If my morals stem from the people in my immediate surroundings and they are "good", the only reason to think ill of me would be from some predetermined biased viewpoint
I'll elaborate, then. As your answers reveal, your morality is nothing more than a herd mentality. In this worldview, nothing is absolutely wrong or right. It's all relative which means you could be induced to commit terrible evils by the herd.
At this point in my life no I wouldn't, but had I grown up around people who saw things differently than yes that could have been. Same goes for everyone.
Its simple to look at history and at all the things that were considered moral at the time.
Sure you would. So long as you continue to believe morality is not absolute you'll remain at the mercy of your herd. After all, when you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything.
I say one thing, you tell me I would do another. Not surprising honestly...
I do find it funnily ironic that an advocate for the murder of children is telling me this though.
Strawman. Try again.
Odd how I pointed out your straw man first and you completely ignored it...
And you outright said earlier that the slaughter of "evil" children was okay...how the hell is that a straw man if you can literally scroll up to see it?
Nonsense. I said God had no choice but to execute the evil offspring of the Canaanites. That's a world away from advocating the wholesale murder of children. Any simpler and I'm gonna have to break out the crayons.
"If they were executed it was because they would INEVITABLY become evil monsters just like their parents"
Maybe advocate was the wrong word. I apologize, I meant justify the death of children. When you're right you're right Jo, my mistake.
Actually, your statement goes back to the Bible. It's called the Golden Rule and this hubber talks all about it https://owlcation.com/humanities/Do-Unto-Others-Bi... Western secularists are influenced by the Bible too...
Except that the golden rule has existed since the dawn of civilization. One of the leading causes for survival and all that jazz.
What's your source?
Based on your logic, it stands to reason that Ultimate Fighting is grossly immoral, right?
No, fighters who participate in ultimate fighting are doing so by choice. The physical "harm" is not the type of harm that I was referring to. That harm is infringing upon a person in a way that they have not agreed to. S&M is similar to fight
So it's moral to harm or perhaps even kill someone so long as they agree to it?
If what you claim is accurate, why is the world plagued with so much evil?
I did say *most* humans. In a world with 7 billion people, even a small percentage who lack morals or empathy leaves a lot of room for "evil".
I also get the idea that your list of "evil" would be a lot longer than mine.
That's a bunch of gobbledygook. "There has to be a way to determine worse or better." Yes, and that way is "the way" it's name is Jesus.
You've given me the broad strokes but I was looking for an answer with all the specifics. Care to take another stab at the question? :)
I don't think I can be specific without giving an example. Which would imply I know what is determined to be immoral/moral. I know I'm being vague but I can't say even though I have values I don't really know if those values are good ones or bad.
Some of us have been saying there is a more basic source of morality than the Bible. The Bible itself speaks of this in Romans 1:18-20. It teaches an innate knowledge of God and morality. This must be true because man lived prior to any scripture.
And what if a person doesn't have a healthy, fully functional conscience? How would that person learn right from wrong?
The same way any other non-criminal sociopath does: The consequences have to outweigh the benefit of the crime. I could always steal what I want from this convenience store, but then it might lose funding and close, and that'd sure be inconvenient.
Or I could totally steal my neighbor's car--it's a lot better than mine--but oh, right, grand theft auto is a pretty major felony, and I can't go out to Joe's every Friday if I'm in jail, so I'll just have to deal with my junker.
And so on.
So Z anything goes if you can get away with it and not get caught. OK to rob a store if you know you can't get caught, owner gets paid by insurance company, who has tons of money and won't be hurt at all, cause people always pay for insurance.
That's what we call "projecting," Tsad. You only think sociopaths would commit crimes if they could get away with it because that's what you would do. An actual sociopath would just see one of the surveillance cameras and say, "Screw that, I'll pay."
That's the other thing you have to keep in mind: The possibility of punishment. Even if no one ever checks the surveillance cameras, like, at all, it's still enough of a deterrent to make a sociopath second-guess how beneficial lifting a $2 item is.
Projecting, I didn't project, your scenario was what you would do " I could totally steal my neighbor's car" I guess you are the sociopath?
Zelkiiro, I think you don't quite understand the psychology of a sociopath. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but sociopaths don't care about punishment. What happens to them is irrelevant in their minds. They could get beat up and still continue.
Phil, that's not a sociopath; that's a psychopath. A sociopath will follow laws if they perceive the punishment to be inconvenient, not because of any moral reason. A psychopath is the person who doesn't care about what punishments fall upon them.
Joseph,Sir "JW",shouldn't U be out proselytizing door to door? know, working on being one of that SELECT group pf 144,000 elite persons who shall reign in Heaven? Better hurry b4 all positions are filled. DOZENS of Christian sects, yet none agree!
So if everyone, say, agreed that the Holocaust was moral that would make it so?
I agree with all you say here. Thanks.
I'm wondering if you are related to Chief Justice Shirley Abrahamson of the Supreme Court of Wisconsin?
Is this drivel your personal opinion or do you have a reference for these statements that presents them as fact. The Bible is presented as fact, the inerrant Word of God¬hing you said is in it. I give you my source,what's yours? Your feelings?
Inerrant, you say? What's this, then:
I had no clue Pi was just 3, and not 3.1415926[...]! Thanks, Bible!
Actually Pi is not 3.1415926 it's 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679821480865132823066470938446095505822317253594081284811174502841027019385211055596446229489549303
That's what the "[...]" is meant to convey.
So the Bible is correct when it estimates Pi as 3.
Not even remotely. The ten-cubit-long circle would not be 30 cubits around--they're missing an entire cubit and some change. That'd be like missing several of the shingles you need to fix your roof, and just saying, "Ahh, close enough."
You should have actually read your source before playing it like your ace of spades:
"the circumference is accurate at 30 cubits, and the diameter, 9.5492965855137(…) cubits, has been rounded off to the nearest cubit, i.e, 10 cubits."
It is merely the truth, what you do with the information is your business. The Bible is a tool to manipulate the sheep, written by men for men.
Prove it. Prove that the Bible is just an ordinary book "written by men for men."
@ blue... I know it's frustrating, but remember the plan? The experiment? We knew it would be this way. Maybe this will help- I deactivated my gene that allows alcohol to affect my brain. And don't get me started about the truth about Ebola.
Haha, somethgblue, your comment was incredibly funny just now. You must be the sucker who believes one is capable of thinking with a heart,
Blue, So if the Bible,our only testimony of Jesus,who he was,what he taught and His life on earth as well as Heaven is just a tool to manipulate the sheep, written by men for men why do you believe anything it says Jesus taught us?
Gee, you've really put a lot of thought into this! It's is so simple isn't it? Then abortion is morally wrong, according to you. Defending yourself is morally wrong. Why is your version of morality more valid than someone elses?
Do you agree, then, that abortion is immoral since it causes fatal harm to another human being?
It isn't more valid. It's just simple. Y would yr's b more valid than mine?
Abortion - pre 12wks cannot survive outside uterus on own. Body aborts during this time a lot ( had a miscarriage myself, not being insens). Not enuff space 4 full answer
Not enough space? How much space do you need for "yes" or "no"?
Hey TSAD, you'd better watch it--Jesus says defending yourself is morally wrong, too. "Turn the other cheek," anyone?
As usual the best you can do Z is raise a straw man. You have no idea what Jesus was talking about. Anyone who thinks morality is it's OK to lie as long as it doesn't hurt anyone and It's OK to cheat if it doesn't hurt anyone needs help.
If you could just clarify for me, do you agree, then, that abortion is immoral since it causes fatal harm to another human being?
It cannot survive outside womb pre23wks, most abortions r performed pre12wk(in NZ). The body aborts often pre12wk, r we going 2 call all women who miscarry murderers? No. I no where u r trying 2 go. I wouldn't have 1 but pre 12wks, no, I don't.
I don't see what viability has to do with the question. Are you suggesting that an eleven week old child-in-utero is not a human being?
MMMM Jacqui my dear..."a 12 wk fetus can't survive outside the uterous on it's own." Newsflash: A 12 MONTH old living child cannot survive ON IT'S OWN. What's your point?
Great point Paula. You could sit a 12 month old child in a corner with everything it needs to survive, but it would die without help from someone.
So your morality is totally subjective, which makes it no more right or wrong than someone elses morality, so two moralities that are totally opposite can exist at the same time, actually millions can be totally different. That is morality?
So morality is pack-based instincts (pack preys on weak, eats their own to survive) and social consensus? The Nazi's morality was based on their social consensus, kill all Jews. Islam's social consensus, kill all infidels, that's your morality?
Nazi's and Islamic radicals DO think they are being moral. And human packs DO prey on the weak and turn against their own.
Thanks MT for proving my point, without God there is no way to prove your morality is more right or wrong than Nazi's or Islam, so unless morality is objective and binding it is not morality. Morality can't be relative but has to be without God.
There is no morality more relative than what I found in 50 years in the Christian world.The Bible is cherry picked for favorite rules. Obedience is a matter of convenience. e.g. abortion is wrong until it's your own daughter's unexpected pregnancy.
That may be true of Antichrists but sedulous Christians adhere to Bible teachings.
Chris,you just demonstrated why without God your morality is no more right or wrong than another's.Cherry pickingBible is creating your own morality from a menu,Gods morality IS abidingGod doesn't approve of abortion whether your daughter ornot.
So the Holocaust was moral since its perpetrators felt so?
Sociopaths don't agree what they did is wrong. You can't be hypothetical because it's irrelevant since it won't happen. If he believes it's wrong, he wouldn't even consider doing it. It would imply it's harmful. Involving sympathy. They lack that.
Thank you so very much for your enthusiastic participation! :)
Phil Perez, LOL, Mr. "student" of psychology: Clearly you have barely brushed the 1st pages of your text books & have ZERO hands-on experience! Sociopaths certainly DO know what they do is WRONG. They just don't give a damn! Keep studying chi
What biblical morality would you suggest? No murder of course. Church attendance? Saturday or Sunday worship? Pork or no pork? Stone adulterers? Men would choose which biblical commands would be enforced because God doesn't speak to the masses.
Again Chris you demonstrate your ignorance of scripture & knowledge of God. Had you truly"studied&researched"(what theologians do)the Bible instead of simply reading it&forming uneducated opinions about what you read, you'd not pose sucqu
He most certainly does. He speaks to everyone through the Bible which is why no one will have a valid excuse at Armageddon when all of us will have to account for how we've used the gift of life he's provided.
@Chris. Jesus Christ.
What's your evidence?
That is so silly DinoMommy. It neither condones rape nor slavery. The NT is very clear about our conduct toward one another. Considering the well-being of others is a good idea...and the Bible was the one to make that foundational!