Why did Paul tell believers to wait diligently for the 'day of the Lord', (Secon

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   searchinsanyposted 8 years ago

   Why did Paul tell believers to wait diligently for the 'day of the Lord', (Second Coming of Christ).
   
   1 Thessalonians 5:2-10: If Paul believed a physical 'rapture' of the saints would occur seven years prior to the return of Christ, widely taught by scholars today, why did he tell them to diligently wait for the 'Day of the Lord' and not the 'rapture?

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   jksouthardposted 8 years ago

   Read I Corinthians 15 for more confusion.  Not sure what they believed.  No life after death OR resurrection of soul, not body  OR  resurrection was not future but past for believers.    Decide for yourself...forget being right about whatever IT is....  is what Paul told us to do in his letter to the Philippians....what chapter and verse?

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      searchinsanyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      1 Thessalonians 5:2-4

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      JK: Phil 3:17="Follow me!"  V20!  V21:  "Who shall change our lowly body, that it may be fashioned like his glorious body, according to the working by which he is able to "subdue all things unto himself."  Amen!
      
      V17-21!  Follow Paul or V19!

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   Levi Legionposted 8 years ago

   I'll just put it out there in the beginning: a pre-millennial "rapture" is not one of the teachings of Paul. Paul was fringe Jewish teacher. He was not accepted by mainstream Judaism after becoming associated with the new Christian groups, but neither did he fully agree with the doctrines of the Jewish Christians of Jerusalem. This is evidenced by some of the disagreements between his epistles and the epistles of other Christian leaders such as Peter, James, and John.
   
   Some modern Christian groups go to great lengths to teach the pre-mil. rapture but Paul clearly thought that the rapture and second coming would be simultaneous events and the apocalypse was going to happen within his lifetime. This of course, like other Jewish apocalyptic prophecies, didn't happen.
   
   Early church history and doctrine is still a greatly misunderstood subject. Much of this is due to the great time divide and the rarity of written works from the years 30 to 300 CE. We do know that early Christian groups were greatly fragmented in their beliefs and it's possible that some group taught pre-mil. rapture, but it wasn't Paul.

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Levi: Paul was chosen for "Gentiles" & NEW COVENANT teachings w/out LAW mindset such as Peter, James & John! Paul is NEW COVENANT teacher where we should be TODAY!
      
      I agree Paul did not teach "rapture!"

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      Levi Legionposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I know what the Christian church teaches about what you're saying, Norine, but I'm approaching it from a historical, critical perspective, not a theological one.

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Levi:  Theological question deserves biblical answer!  It doesn't matter what "history" or a "critical perspective" is, only what Scripture says!
      
      Proverbs 3:5!
      
      The "Holy Spirit" spoke thru Paul changing others (law epistles) teachings!

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      Levi Legionposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      And that's where you are incorrect, Norine. Historical criticism DOES matter. To say "history doesn't matter" is utters stupidity.

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Levi:  Yes "to man" spiritual things are "stupidity!" Studying diff versions of man's interpretations (confusion) & do not study only the Word of God, strays !  One MUST "believe" what is written & allow Holy Spirit  guidance!

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      Levi Legionposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      To ignore certain facts because they are inconvenient IS stupid, yet that is what YOU are doing when you ignore historical facts. But hey...it's your choice. Fortunately your type will never have much influence.

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      LL: Not "inconvenient" rather "irrelevant!" 
      
      Apparently, JESUS hasn't "much influence" either!  Prov 3:5?

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      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Norine, you seem like one of those unfortunate believers who 'knows' that The Bible is the only authority on this planet. But, Jesus himself warned his followers against writing down his words for a very good reason. Research why or remain ignorant.

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Misfit:  (Revelation Chptr 1-"write"):  If 1 doesn't consider bible "only authority" - "unbelief!"  I "believe" Jn 14:26 & 16:13!  Jesus (Comforter) will 'reveal" ALL "lies" including those "historical facts" that He knew men would "add/take away

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       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Norine: I would agree with that statement - Jesus / the spirit will reveal all. But, will God's children recognize it and be receptive to it when so many of them are SO SURE that they already know everything?

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       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Misfit:  A "believer" can ONLY rely on the Holy Spirit which doesn't contradict the Word of God!  If Scripture, TRUE!  When presented, do as the "Bereans" in Acts 17:11!

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       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       The Book of Acts is largely recognized as being a forgery imposed upon Paul - completely different from his 'letters'. Why don't Paul's letters mention things that the Gospels insist upon? Why is the message different? JUST cuz it was for gentiles?

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       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Misfit: "The Gospels" were under "The Law!"  New Covenant effective n Acts! Law fulfilled!  Laws "put in hearts & minds" afterwards (Jer31:33; Heb 8:10;10:16)! Paul then taught what Holy Spirit (Jesus) told him to teach & write under New!
       
       G

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       searchinsanyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Catherine
       
       Quote: 'The Book of Acts is largely recognised as being a forgery imposed upon Paul', could you provide the source for your statement, I am interested in reading? I would like to answer all of your comment, but limited by Q & A rules.

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       Levi Legionposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Ah, Alexander, there you are! Unfortunately this thread was hijacked by Norine at the beginning. I was hoping you would have answered first. 

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       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Levi: Read Isaiah 5:13-25 w/emphasis on Vs15; 20-21; 23! V25"...but his hand is stretched out still." Look @ how many x's the Words in V25 is used in Isaiah!

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       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Paul didn't write Acts. While *I* did much more indepth research on this, you can find the information why that book is in question simply by looking in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorshi … %80%93Acts

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       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       MrGibb: Precisely what I'm talking! Infiltrating!  The link provided by Misfit makes Gal 1:11-12;16-20 a LIE!  But this is "man's" job Jn 10:10!  Holy Spirit revealed to Paul same as Luke's interpretation! Man doesn't know Holy Spirit (JESUS)!

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       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Well now, that is the problem, isn't it? Logic & common sense are just not a part of the Christian curriculum.

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       Levi Legionposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       You got it, Catherine. Christians are told NOT to use their reasoning abilities. They are taught that it's sinful. If a person truly wants the truth and begins to apply their reasoning, Christianity falls flat! Maybe that's why reasoning is off limit

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       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Yeah, I grew up in a home like that where looking at anything other than the bible was a sin. SHAME on you for wanting REAL answers to your spiritual questions. http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.c … anity.html

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       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Levi/Misfit:  NOW you have IT!  That's why I've been telling u to read Prov 3:5 and Jn 14:26;16:13!  The Holy Spirit does a MUCH BETTER JOB of "reasoning" than you are I can!

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       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Norine, we are talking about the BIBLE and how it is designed to teach you to behave. The Holy Spirit is an entirely different subject. We ALL are made of 'spirit' without exception. Who do you think 'revealed' all this to me when I was seeking?

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       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Misfit: II Tim 3:16 "ALL Scripture is inspired by God..." who is the Holy Spirit whose name is JESUS (Jn 14:26 "IN MY NAME")! Not "diff subject!"
       
       There are spirits & there is the Spirit (I Jn 4:1)!  When man puts "his reasoning" vs Jn4:23-24???

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       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Well yeah, Norine... That is one of the main scriptures they use to make sure you do not seek information elsewhere. What was TIMOTHY identifying as 'the scriptures' when he wrote that? Do you know that many of them were destroyed or are still hidden

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       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Misfit: Again, Do you not "believe" Holy Spirit will do what He said He would in Jn 14:26;16:13 "reveal ALL truth?"  Why is this an issue if u "believe?"  Are you a "believer?" 
       
       "Man"can"add or take away" but Holy Spirit teaches discernment! Gift!

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       searchinsanyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Levi
       
       I agree with you that the rapture is not scriptural. I take history into account to affirm events in the Scriptures, however, I believe the Bible is the Word of God and my faith is built upon it.
       
       Q & A, limits comprehensive answers.

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       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Mr.Gibb: Why do you need "affirmation" if you say "I believe the Bible is the Word of God and my faith is built upon it?" 
       
       Men will confuse!  (Is 2:22)!  They LIE!  God doesn't (Num 23:19)!

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       searchinsanyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Norine
       
       I do not depend on history to assure me the Scriptures are true, I believe the Word of God.
       
       eg Jesus said His generation would see the destruction of the temple, this occurred in AD 70. The reason I know, it was recorded in history.

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       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Mr. Gibb:  Give Scripture where "Jesus said His generation would see the destruction of the temple..."

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       searchinsanyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Norine
       
       Mat 23:36-38
       Mat 24:1-2
       Mat 24:33-34
       Mar 13:1-2
       Mar 13:29-30
       Luk 11:30 
       Luk 11:50-51
       Luk 21:5-6
       Luk 21:12
       Luk 21:31-33
       Joh 4:21

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       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Mr. Gibb: When studying Scripture, one MUST read ALL "in the Spirit!"  Don't look for bldgs, temples, etc. It's ALL Spiritual! 
       
       Does the preceding vs not have wars, hypocrites, false Christs, etc today?  "THIS" generation? Not "HIS" generation!

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       searchinsanyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Norine
       
       The destruction of the temple was the most amazing prophecy declared by Jesus. Its fulfilment to the letter and timing in AD 70 is God glorifying, yet you are unmoved by it.
       
       Is "THIS" generation? Not "HIS" generation! a spiritual response?

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   34. 51

       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Mr. Gibb: Bldg was "symbolic!" Jesus is the Temple! Yes, Spiritual!  The Word of God  is "ALIVE!" Didn't stop @ "HIS" generation! "THIS" generation goes on forever & ever! Jesus KNEW  this! Your parents saw it & those "after" us until He retu

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   Norine Williamsposted 8 years ago

   You know Mr. Gibb, "scholars today" look at Scripture "literally!"  Did the Scriptures not say {paraphrasing} "..flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God?" (I Corinthians 15:50).  Therefore, there is never going to be a "physical rapture!" 
   
   Your answer is found in  Thessalonians 4:13-18!  "...concerning them who are "asleep" (physically dead but not "spiritually" for they are "in the Lord")!  V14: "...even so them also who "sleep in Jesus" will GOD bring with him.  V15: "...that we (those "in Jesus") who are alive (physically) and remain unto "The Coming of the Lord" shall not precede them who are asleep (dead physically but "in Jesus" therefore alive in spirit). V16: "...the Lord himself shall descend from heaven...and "the dead in Christ" shall rise FIRST; V17: THEN we who are alive (physically) and remain shall be caught up (spiritually) together with them (who were asleep "in Christ) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and shall we ever be with the Lord."  Oh yes, the best part!  V18:  Wherefore, comfort one another with these words."   
   
   THE MYSTERY:  I Corinthians 15:51-53!  V51:"Behold, I show you a mystery:  "We shall not all sleep (physically die), BUT WE WILL BE CHANGED (into "spiritual bodies,") V52: "...in the twinkling of an eye,,,the dead ("in Christ") shall be raised incorruptible, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED. V53:  For this corruptible (flesh) must put on incorruption (spiritual body) and this mortal (flesh) must put on immortality (spirituality)."
   
   I cannot find the word "rapture" anywhere in Scripture, especially a "physical" one!  We will be changed (into spirit) because "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" so says Scripture (I Corinthians 15:50)!

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Yes Misfit "Discernment!" (Gift) 
      
      One of those "brainwashing" gifts or "benefits!"
      
      Again, Too many "study" man! (Rm 1:25)

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   Niecey Docposted 8 years ago

   I think you make a great point in raising this question. Of course there are great scholars on either side of this debate, so I won't dare suggest I have the right answer. But I have heard it said (I think it was by William Lane Craig), that you can't read rapture out from the bible, you can only read it *into* the bible. I think I mangled the quote somewhat. But basically, a pre tribulation rapture isn't the intrinsic interpretation of the scripture, but when you've already learned it you can bend scriptures to kind of fit the theory.

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      DD: When one is "in the Lord," as you say "bending Scriptures to fit the theory" is unnecessary!  Jn 14:26 & 16:13 says that the "Comforter would lead & guide us into ALL truth" so no need to "bend Scriptures" for Jesus (Comforter) will "reve

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      searchinsanyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Denise
      
      I believed the rapture theory for 35 years. Eleven years ago I re-examined the doctrine and I'm now convinced it is not scriptural.
      
      My Hub explains why:
      
      http://searchinsany.hubpages.com/hub/Th … CandyStick

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      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I used to believe it, too - wholeheartedly. I also used to believe in Creationism. It is amazing how freeing the truth is - Jesus was right, the truth will set you free and you will be free, indeed!

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      searchinsanyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Denise
      Your comment is clear, I agree. I believed in the rapture for 35 years, until I re-examined the theory 11 years ago. I have learned to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. Like Norine I try to depend totally on the Word of God.

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Mr.Gibb: Info is OK but man's view infiltrates "spirit!" Jn 4;24. Nothing "imposed upon Paul" but Holy Spirit (Jer 31:33;Heb8:10;10:16)! Until world "sees" HS (JESUS) talked thru Paul telling us how to live under NC, they will be lost Gal 1:6-9!

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      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Again, if the bible was actually 'The Word of God' things would be different. NONE of the gospels were written by any of the disciples - there was a contest with hundreds of entries. Four were chosen because 'there are 4 corners to the world'.

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Misfit: WOW!  You are "funny" or one misled person!  Are you even a "believer?"  Why would "things be diff" when ALL have "free will" to create their own & world chaos?

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      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      LoL! Sounds like you are admitting that I'm right! Here's a pic. It might help you see HOW your heretic ideals came about. The chaos & bondage put on people is UNCOOL! http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.c … stianity.h

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Misfit: I will NEVER "admit one is right" if AGAINST the Word of God!
      
      The link you've provided has been "deleted!" 
      
      Look at JESUS! 
      
      Precisely what I'm talking!  Holy Spirit will "delete" all LIES eventually.  The devil's already been defeated!

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       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       LoL! No, Norine the link is still there - I just ran out of room. You are being taught a lesson. Don't believe everything you think and don't assume anything.  http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.c … anity.html

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       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Misfit: You're still searching in the "wrong direction" - man who LIES!  You continue to do as stated in Rm 1:25!
       
       Here's where we differ: I "believe" GOD, you "believe" man!

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       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       No, it is definitely the other way around. NOWHERE in the Bible does it claim that all 66 books are God’s word or infallible. The “Scriptures” referred to in Tim. refer to the OT; and the term “inspiration” does not mean “complete word of God".

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       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Misfit: Do you know Holy Spirit? I Tim 3:16 said "ALL SCRIPTURE (whether ALL there r not which Holy Spirit will reveal & don't have to go elsewhere) is inspired by GOD.."  I "believe" Jn 14:26;16:13 don't you?

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   Hxprofposted 8 years ago

   As some point out here, Paul didn't separate the Second Coming and the rapture - they're simultaneous and followed immediately by the wrath of God, wrapping up the Great Tribulation.  This is why Paul taught as he did in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-10.  The pre-trib rapture is a lie....from the pit of hell.

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Amen!

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Misfit: "Probably truth?"  The Truth is in His Word! 
      
      Until you "humble yourself" (II Chron 7:14) and do as He said when "studying" (Jn4:23-24; Is 28:10), you will NEVER be able to understand the Word of God!

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      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Except that YOU limit 'his word' to the bible - which has threads of truth running through it that are twisted in with complete (and ancient) pagan fabrications. Awaken, Oh Pricness of God!!!

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Again, You "doubt" the Holy Spirit who said He would "reveal ALL truth!"  Does that sound like a "believer?"  Either you believe or don't!  That's all I'm saying!
      
      Is 2:22 "Cease ye from man... for wherein is he to be accounted of?"
      
      Irrelevant!

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      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Right. Either you believe what men put in your head or you let the Holy Spirit reveal the truth to you. God gave you a brain with logic & common sense, also. To deny those gifts is to insult him; and his 'followers' insult him every day.

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Misfit:  I guess Prov 3:5 (Did you read?) LIED!  "Lean not to your OWN understanding..." So what is this "logic & common sense" according to the Word of God?  "Denying" His Word "insults Him!"

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   Sparkleaposted 8 years ago

   When I die, I will know.  Period. 
   
   Until then, I will just trust in Jesus and the salvation He has provided me through the cross. 
   
   With all my flaws, I am forgiven, and I have the free gifts of grace, mercy and forgiveness. 
   
   To me all this remains a mystery, mostly because Christians cannot agree on Bible teachings. 
   
   I believe each one of us has a right to interpret scripture the way we feel in our hearts.
   
   I have struggled with the rapture for years because the word 'rapture' is not in the Bible.
   
   IF there is a rapture, then we who believe will not be involved.  I can't allow myself to stew about it. 
   
   God is God, He is in charge, and I try to give each minute of each day to Him, which is very difficult.  I only know if I give 100 percent of my day to God, I can then conclude He is in everything that happens to me - good and bad.
   
   As for the future, if I am living day by day, I don't have to worry about it.  I believe in showing people through my walk, not my talk...and I still screw up.
   
   Blessings, Sparklea

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I Pet 1:3 He has given us "...ALL things pertaining to life & godliness.." so it's in Scripture!  Holy Spirit "reveals" mysteries not "our hearts!"  Believers will be involved according to I Thes 4:13-18! You do have to worry! Talk The Word only!

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      Sparkleaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Sorry Norine, I was talking about the tribulation, which IS something to be concerned about.  My mistake!  It still bothers me that 'rapture' is not mentioned in the Bible.  I only know I am saved, and covered by the blood of Jesus.  Thank you!

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Spark: I made mistake too! "Walk & Talk the Word" also for Scripture tells us to "talk" (teach) His Word! 
      
      "Rapture" (not in Bible) is Spiritual not as man understands but according to Scripture (I Thess 4:17)! "Flesh & blood..."  (I Cor 15

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      Sparkleaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Norine: I taught my kids; Sunday School; Awana, and will share my faith with those who give me openings.  I lost my son to preaching...he has nothing to do with God or me    I was an idiot, too sanctimonious...so now I am hesitant to 'talk.'

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Spark: We may "suffer persecution" but MUST do according to His Word (Matt 28:20) "...teach all nations."  Be example for son!  Do as Jesus said, & pray He chgs his heart & believe He will!  Your son will return as the prodigal son did!
      
      Bles

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      firework23posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I just wanted to say that I have much respect for you. There is a lot of back and forth arguments over scripture. You come off, to me, as someone who follows rightly. Please continue in your walk because you are doing fine. Be the light...peace :-)

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      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Yeah, my mom lost me, too - mostly bcuz of her fanatically religious bs that she both forced on me and raised me with - because she believed all the lies to begin with like most people in here obviously do. Best advice: DO YOUR RESEARCH on the bible!

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      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Misfit: Ur mom did "the best she could," which was according to Scripture "Train up a child in the way he should go & when "he's old" he will not depart from it." (Prov 22:6). 
      
      Pls realize Holy Spirit will reveal "man's" chgs to bible!

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      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Oh shut up, Norine - go do your damn research. Every Christian needs to do it for themselves before they continue to lecture like they do.

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       Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Mis: It seems u've violated Prov 3:5 "Lean not to ur own understanding" & have done "plenty of research!"  I blv WORD, GOD doesn't LIE but "man" does!  Keep Studying man's words & see what it gets u!  Listen to mom!

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