There are some people who are quite adamant about the belief that the Bible is an accurate account of History. And they really believe that they have the evidence to prove this. I can't help but conclude that, then...their position is that they actually believe in magic. Is this a rational world view for an adult to have? Can magic be corroborated with reality? If so, HOW? If not, then, could someone please tell me how the Bible is an accurate account of History?
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You should present your findings to Bill Nye. I'm quite sure he will agree.
Not sure whom he is but the hubs are there for people to read and discuss. So far the discussion has been good and robust. You might not agree with me but at least you'll have seen the evidence and not some interpretation.
See you there.
Getit why does your analysis have to be correct as truth
Because some said this and you believe that understanding. That is your choice and right we all have the same right to conclude.
Yes, there are some facts in the bible, but is the Bible an accurate account of History then? Is there an explanation as to how Moses parted the water? How Noah fit all those animals on a boat that was too small? How a spirit impregnated a virgin?
"Is the Bible an accurate account of History then?" Yes and no. That is too broad a question for a definitive answer. There are theories for how Moses parted the Red Sea...the others, no.
The point Grace we live history that is written in the bible, it was the bible that said the earth was round before men knew it was .Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,written before Jesus came.
Also written world events .
So what did this circular Earth rotate around for three days, waiting for God to create the SUN?(Genesis 1:16)
And what was used to measure a DAY before there was a sun? It makes more sense that this is inaccurate, because reality refutes this.
Getit , many times I have watched movies red articles, and I noticed if you just rush through and skim through you will not get the full truth, you will get more of your opinion then truth.one word can be the whole key to understanding if missed .
In other words, we have to keep on looking for confirmation, until we give up...then just pretend that we have found the confirmation. In this case the confirmation is just not there...and we end up playing these silly mind games..of blind faith
Getit, maybe that's how you perceive the subject, but if you know anything about treasure , like gold and pearls, they are treasures you dive for , pan for, even some ships in the depth of the oceans seem unreachable , but finally reached.
And sometimes you can just dig a deep hole, confident that u are gonna find something, and find absolutely nothing, because someone sold u a false treasure map...and they laugh, and laugh,and laugh......
Those pan handlers who struck real gold did not give up, and but received the rewards for their endurance, what about the those that drilled for oil, filthy rich.
Those that know what the bible holds in value will be richer then all above.
But some found nothing...because there was nothing there. You're trying to pretend that you can go into a dark room and find a cat that's not even in the room. Please understand that your analogy is not working. It has been deconstructed.
Getit you just admitted to some, so you have to agree about the percentage that did, as you ignore that fact. Gold is valuble today. So that is a true reality. For those who doubted it could be found , oh well ! The same for people who doubt God.
@Get too bad there wasn't Ancestry.com back in the Biblical days. Probably would be able to trace my ancestors back further than I was able to. Plus I replied to you under Charlie and thought I deleted it. So ignore or delete
Of course u know your ancestry ultimately goes back to Adam and Eve. The first humans made, magically, by God using some dust and a rib. That Lucy fossil was just planted there by Satan.
You're absolutely right Get. My ancestry does go back to Adam and Eve. Not really sure who this Lucy is.
Also your getit your question of how Moses parted the sea, how God saved the animals, how Marry got pregant by spirit.
Very easy to explain,first your questions are already mixed up to start
Who created earth,the sun ,stars.
The water would be easy
I think there is a disconnect here. but it's the sceptic from the evidence they don't want to hear!
To answer your questions I'd suggest you read my 4 hubs on the Flood tracing through the cultural and historical evidence for it!
Misfit the early christians read from the scrolls , Jesus read also read from them.Luke 4:17 says he read from the scrolls himself. We need to understand if Jesus read from them, it is important, We should not think its not important
Lawrence, I made it through 2 of those hubs. And from what I've read, it seems that u did not write these articles from an objective point of view. I would have to take a leap to actually conclude that this answers my question. *See BEST ANSWER^
Getit example they study plants but the plant was already existing before research the sun.the moon also existed before they researched.And came with their analogy.
They said the earth was flat. Later the truth revealed it was round.The bible knew
Not to mention the huge lack of historical evidence, of the jews being enslaved in egypt, moses, Josephs temple in egypt. No evidence of them traveling the desert for 40 years. This is of course not even including scientific evidence
Just wondering when they talk about the four corners of the earth in other passages? I guess we have to interpret as symbolic, as in saying from everywhere?
John Col .you do not see evidence because you are not searching for it .you are searching for fault. But you are deceiving yourself. Example the Jews exist, Egypt exist, the Pharoahs exist , many things you pick and say but you fail the research
The jews obviously exist, egypt obviosuly exists. What doesn't exist is what 2 and a half books claim existed. The torah, the bible, and the quran are all not accounts of history. They are the only 3 accounts of that timeline, stop being ignorant
The Torah and the Koran is a mixter of Muhammads fellow followers who. Made these . they made him spec.because he encountered a spirit in a cave that viciously attacked him and forced him to repeat words he did not want to say.
He could not read.
That doesn't really help your point. And for the record the Torah is the Jewish book, you know the old testiment, you know the first part of your bible where your pseudo history occurs. It has nothing to do with Muhammad
Carl, as a Christian, I was taught to believe that there was a talking snake in a magic garden. And that someone dead for 3 days resurrected. Someone parted a large body of water. Manna was rained from the sky. Do u not consider these things magic?
You clearly didn't read Genesis properly as the 'serpent' wasn't made into a snake (crawling on his belly) until after the incident in the Garden!
Miracles seem like magic - unless you've seen miracles.
raised-- correct amen
You can also call a garbage man a sanitation engineer, he's still a garbage man. Miracles dont just seem like magic, they are magic...no matter what you THINK you've seen. Sorry but...
Miracle = Magic
Are not Apparitions merely Superstitions of the Receptive Human Mind?
Really?! So now I guess u are going to show us that the serpent was some other type of animal that could TALK...and not the reptile of today, that was magically transformed by God. Do Biologists agree with your version?
Getit you finally said something I totally agree with you on
Jim Jones. But I must say this example food is for our nourishment and survival. Whe we hear of much contamination do we just say I will not be fooled by food again. It is all bad.
Miracles like magic saviors, and virgin births, and walking on water, and parting massive bodies of water, and manna falling from the sky, and resurrections are not subject to interpretation, they are insulting to the intellect.
"insulting to the intellect". What a fragile insecure intellect that would be. Kind of like searching for victim status.
Intelligent people find your beliefs insulting but u somehow found a way to see that as a weakness. It seems that u will now say just about anything to keep believing in ancient nonsense! Don't like the message, misrepresent the messenger.
Well getitrite, I must say that sometimes I feel sorry for you being mistreated by Christians. Seems our faith is hard on you. Our lack of needing proof seems to make you angry. So I apologize for that.
Eric, please stop with the patronizing. I don't need your not-so-subtle passive aggressive pity. I need no pity from anyone. The fact that u think that you require no evidence for your beliefs is proof that you should keep these beliefs to yourself.
And yours to yourself
+Get I think Lucy looks more like a monkey or chimp. Plus I do not believe the earth is as old as they say. Never believed it even before I became a Christian
Lois, just because u stubbornly refuse to believe facts, does not make the facts untrue, So in essence, u are just stating that u know more than professionals that are way smarter than u. Where is your evidence to support your rebuttal?
I'm not stating any such thing. Where is the proof that the earth is that old? How accurate is the testing methods. Nothing is 100% accurate. Even math where 1 + 1 = 2 Some math Boolean Algebra the answer would be one.
There is ample evidence to support the claim of the Earth's age. But it is amazing how u refuse to believe something that u say isn't supported by facts, yet u believe in the veracity of the bible, which has hardly any basis in fact at all.
I was backpacking with my Christian buddies in the Grand Canyon and we asked the question of each other; "Why did God make the earth only a couple billion years old?" We wonder if He gave it that long or if He just snapped his fingers.
Eric,That's the kind of talk that is completely disturbing to hear in the 21st century. If my granddaughter said that, however, it would be understandable. She's 3.
I get that from your perspective. God is disturbing to you but you have to realize you are in a very minor vocal minority. The vast majority of us believe in a God. So please don't act like your views are the only right ones.
God is not disturbing to me. There are no Gods to be disturbed by. Stop trying to divert with a straw man. U know what I mean. Ancient Dark Age thinking is what is disturbing. And the fact that the majority of people are delusional is shocking!
Still not going to sway me
Lois, then I see the truth doesn't matter to u. The fear of questioning your beliefs is stronger than your will to seek the truth. This is why indoctrination is so useful to the authorities that control u. Their nonsense works so well on some people.
To me the truth is the bible. To you it is evolution. We will never agree with each other. So I say we are at an impasse. Wouldn't you agree? Not controlled by indoctrination or religion.
get- you are the one trying to push your foolish belief here. this place is for Christians not fools like you pushing an anti Christian agenda, go play elsewhere
Charlie, why are u so angry? Why are u hurling outright hurtful insults at me? I think u have exceeded the level of tolerance that is allowed here on HP. What an immature way to maneuver in life. Similar to an evil 5 year old's temper tantrum. Sad!
I was just reading along and found this remarkable. "an evil 5 year old:. I get what you mean but it is simply delicious that you would call a 5 year old evil even though you do not believe in good and evil in that sense. I think you are coming aroun
Eric, I don't think my comment means what you think it means.
MoneyM. Billions of people may not believe in God , does not make it true either, A world of people before Noah did not .they died in the flood waters.
Only 8 people out of that population was right.
I really encourage you to read my hub 'Exodus, history or hoax' and watch the video by National Geographic, you'll realize there are good scientific reasons to accept they are possible as they have happened in the past and are documented!
Lawrence, I will read it once I get some time.
@getitrite virgin births and rebirth stories are indeed mostly added afterwards. Since an individual of such divine qualities can never be mere man. That is when he becomes larger than life. If you take it with a grain of salt and as symbol it...
John Col.Muhammad associates or followers after his death created the Torah combined it with the Koran.
As getit is a advocate against magic the torah has spells .Maybe people should do more research on what they believe before they throw stones
Yes, then they continue to teach it as FACT.
Good answer. That's great advice.
I've got four hubs on that subject, but for your information the University of Leicester did calculations and worked out with the Ark's dimensions and bouyancy they could take 70,000 animals at least and there were only 35,000 species alive then
So we have the scriptures in the bible that say the name of Sargon, Isaiah 20:1.
And the British Museum has artifacts with his name on them. Also the Chinese museum carries items.
Proof the bible tells truth.
Wonderfully exspressed thank you for sharing.
If the Bible is as honest as you are asserting, why is it NOT the standard text used in History classes in schools?
The bible is not a guide for life. If we tried to adhere to some of the laws in the bible we would all be immoral convicted felons.
Because getit this is not Gods system . it is satan at the present. We are living under his global dictatorship.
The reason we all are suffering. The Heavenly Father will soon take over.
The bible tells us the unseen spitual conversations and end
Very interesting position Zeron. Thank you for sharing it with us. A fun legalistic evidence concept is that if two people tell a story exactly the same it is not credible because no two people can view something exactly the same. The Bible is honest
Getitrite, you would not use a collection of journals as the sole topic for historical discussion, but other historic documents and proofs alongside it. That's... common sense. It's the same reason we can find truths in other biographical works.
“Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted.” (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed
Dear, that's just one quote, from a CATHOLIC encyclopedia. You have a multitude of religious scholars who debate the validity of the Bible as a historical text, at different ends of the spectrum (Thomas Thompson vs Bart Ehrman).
Its not for you accurate . but many feel different on the subject. And is not compared to fictional characters. Which that would make you fictional if it was. The story and the beginning of man and womans existence is written there ,no other book.
History is not subjective, you can't just say one thing is true (that has no historical accuracy) and ignore facts. That would be like saying I believe star wars is an accurate recreation of the past because I want to believe it.
The point is you use fictional characters in your meaning I focus on real people.even books that are none religious prove that.
History is fact even none religious books proof that, but when they both say the same thing about the subject
@John, It's amazing how people take these vague historical accounts and say that it is proof that the bible is TRUE History, despite the blatant trips into magical fairytales
@Kiss, The story of Adam & Eve is certainly not History. Its folklore!!
Getit then there is no need to converse witb you you are folk lore too! Are you a man as Adam. If Adam is fictional you are to.
@Kiss, If Adam & Eve were real, then evolutionary science and archaeology would corroborate this "fact"
Science is in conflict with Adam & Eve, because science has found that Homo Sapiens evolved from earlier hominids...not magic dust &
The problem is science is based on man incomplete slow , and human error Analysis. You believe a man records here
But when men were used as secretaries to write history now you do not believe
Science only validates what is fact already.
Kiss, I believe in things that fit into reality. It's not about believing one man over another, just because. One man writes things that makes sense, in reality, and another writes about ignorance and superstitious nonsense. They are not on par.
It really is a personal of rather you believe its real or fictional
But I can reason just because you claim to be John Col .does not mean you are John Col.Your words and thoughts appear on page here.
Are you fictional or are you real.
God is real.
So you are skeptical of anything with supporting evidence of existence. me, and my typing and responding is evidemve of my existence. This and other factors. But god, with little evidence excluding the bible and anecdotal evidence you dont question?
Sorry your presence here is just as much evidence of a "bot". Who the hell knows if you are real - or a real what - woman in curlers, chain smoking. You skeptics assume we assume you are what you say you are.
my existence of who I am can be traced to my hubpage Which gets traced to my facebook which has both video and eye witness accounts of my existence, well documented from numerous sources. You can remain skeptical as to if i am John key work skeptical
Too damned easy to generate and falsify. Easy to create all you have on the net. Maybe it is ten people or a Berekely computer deal. I simply cannot have the blind faith that you are real until you prove it with empirical non electronically generated
my school records, along with teachers, social security number, college reports and grades, forms for work, birth cert. My ss# and email are connected to accounts for work and school, which is used on the email on here. A trail for one willing to loo
It brings a great question. Why would an atheist focus on Christianity? Hell hath no fiery as a bruised bride.
True readme But that is still part of the definition of history We would certainly agree that we could read about the rise and fall of world goverments in history books.
That is what makes the bible valid it also containes the rise and fall of them
I still say the Bible is not a history book. It is a book that has had a major impact on history. The connection between miracles and magic shows a complete lack of understanding of both.
Books like the bible, Quran, torah, etc. Again not historically accurate books but excellent for studying past cultures and cultures of the world. You can see changes in cultural history, but it isnt an actual account of factual history
Of course none of these holy books are history books. And before u start feeling "persecuted" I asked this question in response to an angry Christian who kept insisting that the bible was history. Logically the same would apply to a Hindu or Muslim.
No, I'm not seeking God. That would be silly! I'm just not understanding how modern day adults can be so gullible, not being able to see how childish their world view is. Your answer sounds really disturbing without the blinders of willful ignorance.
Getit which means you can not read and understand the bible in one attempt, nor two, it is so compact in the smallest phases.
Actually we are still living out its meaning and prophesies.
It does more then give history it shares ours as well.
Getitrite, Most likely you will NEVER understand why we believe. I don't call it gullible. I have FAITH in Jesus. If it turns out when I die, there's no God, I've lost nothing. But if I die without Jesus and he's real, I'm doomed.
Wow! Isn't that amazing! Of all the many holy books making the same claim, yours is the one that is the ONLY true version. Amazing that u just happened to be born into the one culture that the real God is communicating with. Also, magic is REAL!
Getitrite, why don't you give it a rest. You're not capable of understanding, so quit making fun of people who are different than you. Grow up! You sound so immature.
Immature? Really? I guess one has to believe in the stuff of children's fairy-tales to be mature these days. Yes, I super magic man who lives in the sky, wrote a book through proxy Why didn't he just use magic? Believe me, I understand. U don't!!!
Get: Provide that "book!"
U call it "magic" (since childish "spiritually") we call it POWER (Acts 1:8) who CREATED "magicians!"
Who'd u rather serve ur "magician" or the CREATOR of the "magician?"
Norine, Any God that's worthy of being a supreme being would require no worship from me. This God has some severe psychological problems...petty and very insecure.
Amazing, one does not believe in God but is so self righteous to believe that they can dictate what God wants or does not want or can do or not do. How does that work. This man is omnipotent and all knowing like God but does not believe in another.
When u just make up stuff u can give the character any attribute u want. That still doesn't mean that the attributes are not contradictory or absurd outside the fairy tale. At least admit it is a made up fairy tale, with a license to suspend reality.
Getitwrong, There is a philosophical and theological concept of God you do not grasp. Believe or not be logical. God can do what ever God wants to do. Omnipotent and omnipresent and alpha and omega. You do not get what a God is.
"You do not get what a God is"
Apparently God is: Taking the folklore from the teaching in our youth, and infusing whatever else we want it to be. Then pretending that it exists in reality. Cause it appears that this is what u are doing. Correct?
Getitwrong, You just do not get it. There are no time restrictions on a God. There is no concept that you can even control or put into your construct about a God. God does not play by your rules. A God is beyond your understanding.
Eric, exactly what my point is stating. God is all those things u just made up, and u have a personal relationship with him. But of course, that would make u special...unlike us common dumb folk...who just dont have the superior ability that u do.
Kind of on the mark but I share it with a billion others. Nothing really all that special. But thank you for suggesting so. If I were the only one. Then you could maybe have a point.
In the story "The Emperors's New Clothes" u would be just another insignificant blind fearful follower. Everyone in that story believes that everyone else is NOT ignorant...except one young boy.
A lie is a lie no matter how many people believe it!
You do real well building ridiculous constructs in your mind. Maybe you could expand your mind a little. My 6 year old might draw from you but not an adult. But good for you. You are very angry. I hope it passes. But maybe you are doomed. Interesting
It seems that u are the one who is angry. I have just stated facts...u have attacked me. It's because I have exposed the absurdities of your world view. If u want to live a make believe life, keep it to yourself. Otherwise it is subject to ridicule.
Tirel why is it you believe that all animals was saved and this is believec by christians. Not true at all. Please read the account again . you will notice. Not a boat , only male and female of certain animals. Boarded the. Vessel. What about fish?
miracles sounds better than magic. the bible is one book never literal in nearly example attributed to it. created in his image in thinking, spiritually and even feelings as examples. not in physical form
Since there is no evidence for the existence of a God, how can there be any such things as miracles? Therefore magic is what the writers of the Bible are merely attributing to this false deity. they made that up. Magic does not even exist in reality.
Because there is no evidence a thing cannot exist. Interesting and very limited life view. I suppose you think there is "evidence of love"? Wait - by the actions we take it is evident. If we can do out of love, why can't we do out of God. Evidence?
So although there is no evidence for the existence of Rumpelstiltskin, I should still keep an open mind to his existence, right? Then, even though I have no evidence for his existence, I should believe that he spun straw into gold. FAIL :(
More power to you if you want to believe that. That is great that you believe in something.
This exchange has now transitioned into insanity. Religious belief is a rigid programming of the mind, rendering the brain incapable of defaulting to reality, eventually succumbing to blatant crazy talk.
So every president of the US was and is incapable of dealing in reality. But you are so endowed. Nice fame to claim.
Getit you do not accept evidence , you are the greatest evidence it is , if you are not impossible to exist to walk the earth, to express your presence through writing on HP as the creator of all things has written to us by scrolls
Then it is true
The fact that I exists does not prove anything about your ancient bible. u just believe that it is evidence. Your beliefs are not based on facts. Show me the facts that my existence is evidence of your savior? Until then, u have shown no proof.
Getit should I believe you are writing on hp. This is not you, and what you write? The bible is full of written letters. Of scrolls of cuniforms , also museums with artifacts preserved.
You may not believe in the bible but but these are evidence
Yes, anything can be accepted into evidence, and in this case, the evidence doesnt support your conclusion. The fact that something was written down says nothing about whether or not that writing is true.The fact that things exists proves no creator
Getit man says we came from apes
Is that reasonable.When apes today can not communicate in our enormous
Vocabulary they are limited. Can an ape walk out the zoo.No.Can we ask him about his family tree that would lead to humans .No.
Any evolve lately
Why couldn't God also keep the message of 'The Word' - itself - straight among us via The Holy Spirit that he supposedly used to keep The Bible from being tainted in the first place?
And many of those intentional changes include magic. And since we don't see any magic in this day and time...if we are really honest with ourselves, we can safely assert that these accounts are not factual.
To getit and Money , what I notice about you is you judge everything prematurely not having all the facts . and even coming to conclusions not based on accurate truth. A lie can never lead to the truth. If it wrong infomation it is wrong period.
@Kiss, No u got it wrong. I am a former Christian. Was indoctrinated from birth into a religious family. Went to Sunday School for many years. Even Reread the bible after becoming an atheist. I HAVE ALL THE FACTS. AND THEY ARE BASED ON THE RIGHT INFO
I completely agree Getitrite.
Getit from your answers of past experience I must say that your experienced was based on wrong infomation.
For example your question about Noah is not correct the details are wrong.
Saying magic was done or sipported by God is really wrong.Not true
I'd say the Bible does accurately portray history as it really tells of stuff it doesn't agree with and says why, but it still records it. Example the book of Kings (voth) even David doesn't always come off well!
Many items in the bible are not true, some have been debunked and with all of the human involvement there have been intentional "edits." Many treat the bible as fact others treat it as fiction, others see it as a mix. However, it is not history.
Give me one example of something 'debunked' and proven to be false (not just thought so by a particular author)
I'll gladly oblige with a reply but it might be a whole hub
You cannot bring back to life someone who is factually dead. You might restore to higher level of life someone who has a slender connection to life.
Anything else is magical, simply what you want to believe. It's not fact.
Alan, Jesus can bring people back from the dead. That is why he is God.
There are studies done in the last few years that have established some of the 'NDE's were actually dead (brain dead) yet came back! This is leading scientists to accept there may be life after death!
The burning bush among other things has been explained using science. There are many "magical events" that are simply that but I can agree to respectfully disagree. I fully agree with Getitrite and others.
Thanks for the reply. You're right about the events that can be explained by science, but the strange part is they happen 'at the right time with the right person watching' coincidence?
Fair enough about respectfully disagreeing
Did ur calculation include logistics? How did the Carnivores eat? Where did they store all the grain, grass hay, vegetables, fruit, clean water? What about waste? Cooling/heating systems? How did 8 people possibly do all that work?
As far as I am aware yes. They also took Micro evolution into account (changes within a species) so you wouldn't need twenty six types of cat etc, just one type from which the rest came later. Even we creationists have no issue with that.
So earlier u said that the Ark could accommodate at least 70,000 animals...of which u implied 35,000 pairs. Thats just one account in Genesis. There is also an account of 7 pairs of each clean animal, which would put the total well above 70,000.
No coincidence. Magic and what not is not history and that is a fact.
You're right Noah was told to do that but there's debate whether he did as the account says one of each pair went in! I'm not sure if he obeyed the 'seven of each kind' or not! Some commented say he did, others say not.
@Express, that seems to be the disconnect with believers, the inability to see this glaring fact.
@Lawrence, I'm sure u meant by 35000, only the species of animals that would need saving. I imagine all land dwelling Vertebrates?
Wow what a cool display of mania induced through anti-spiritualism. This is fascinating to watch. Just a wonderful fireworks show of intellect hating other. No beast should bear this burden alone. Yet there it is for all it's glory. No love/no faith.
I said 35,000 pairs. Yes it takes all them into account as for example 1,000 years ago there was only 5 or 6 species of Dog, now there are 500 or so! Scientiists tell us thre were only about 35,000 species on the planet at the time!
Lawrence, doesn't it still seem extremely ridiculous to actually believe that this mammoth effort was carried out 8 people? It is not possible. This seems like a few facts thrown in with a plethora of wishful thinking and denial of reality. OR MAGIC!
What I think is irrelevant. The evidence is clear that it happened. The only thing historians now debate is was it 'localized' or global?
Both have good arguments for them
Getit I did a hub about the flood did it really happen. In my notes it explained that researchers of the subject found proof of the deludge. Lower animal life fossles were found in the high mountain regions. Water of a flood would lift animals up.
Lawrence, the evidence is clear that SOMETHING happened. But this evidence does not corroborate the story in the Bible...Why? Simply because magic would have to be real, and that is just not factual, unless u have some NEW objective proof.
We're talking about two different things. You're talking about some kind of 'Magic' but I'm talking about a historical event that took place and 'covered the whole earth' was it literal or just the 'known world of the time?' No magic involved!
OK, So I guess u are saying that the story of Noah's Ark is not true...but a flood DID happen. Yep, floods do happen. Magic...No! Thanks for clarifying that.
Ronnie stay as long as you can in your ethereal, non-pragmental space. Love in that space and find more love in that space.
"Human arrogance and fear" huh? Non sequitur wishful thinking. U havent explained the importance of faith. What u have done however is defined the need to be part of the sheep. Ergo make elaborate excuses to keep believing what controllers tell u to.
That is kind of a chuckle if you follow Ronnie. "Ronnie has controllers", actually that is a great big belly laugh. Ronnie being a part of the sheep is absurd.
There is nothing fallacious about my argument since it is well known that the natural laws existed long before they could be understood and manipulated by man.Only a baboon can say with conviction that "this is" and "this is not".
I think I was specific enough. Examples of magic include parting the Red Sea...the Resurrection...virgin birth from a spirit...Manna from the sky...Noah's Ark...talking snakes...Enchanted Gardens with magic trees.
There are two forms of magic. There is trickery, sleight of hand, illusions, etc. which is one form of magic. Then there is true power. Which magic are you talking about? Sleight of hand or actual power?
I understand that magicians practice ILLUSIONS, and they tell us that it is MAGIC.
What do u mean by true power? Because it has not been proven that any REAL MAGIC exists. What does power have to do with it? Have u seen power that can violate natur
I see something more powerful than a power that can violate nature. I see the creator of that nature. Now that is power.
I don't think u have seen any such thing. If so, it could be tested objectively. U have been tricked into thinking that u know of such a being. Another illusion from the magician...taken from a NORMAL fairy tale, and taught to u as fact.
Have you ever loved somebody?
The whole bible is predicated on the notion that certain men received dictations from a magic super being from outer space. If that part is embellished, then it negates the whole belief system, as it is no longer the word of a God.
The Bible was inspired, not dictated word for word.
Tirel. Tirel.you speak according to humans and what they believe . If you were versed in Gods word you would know that it was a sin to practice the Arts of spiritism.Deut 28:10 is very clear before Jesus arrived.
Also why ...
No it wasn't. There is no God up there to inspire anyone. Some people are such blind followers of obvious BS. Unbelievable!
You make vacuous claims as such, yet if your life depended on it, you could not prove the existence of your God
God does not need to be proven, nor does he desire it - religions are what ramp the question up; and ALL of the 'Christ Consciousness' that have manifested WARNED against religions and/or writing down their words. That should tell us all something.
God does not have to be proven anymore than love has to be proven. God is experienced. You were a Christian once. Did you never experience God?
Yes, I was tricked into thinking that i was experiencing the effects of some Bronze Age character in a book of myths. I also thought I could make antennas come out of my head...after watching "My favorite Martian"
Both of these events were comical.
That is a normal response for someone who has fallen out of their religion - very normal - I've written about it, I've went through the experience. It is a spiritual crossroads: stay there, turn back, explore or create a path. Any choice is okay.
You cannot be tricked into experiencing anything. Your experience was real. Just like when you love somebody who turns out to be unworthy of your love. The experience of love was still real and not a trick.
Maybe - that is getitrite's thing to work out. Each person has to figure it out. A God that can supposedly create the Universe is not even SORT of phased by anyone's questions or doubts. There is nothing about himself that he feels compelled to prove
My experience was real? Really?! My brother did say that he saw a couple of bumps start to rise on my forehead. I was almost to the point where the antennas burst through. I felt myself starting to disappear, then I became afraid.
Can you use this to explain the 'Dead Sea scolls' that were lost to us for 2,000 years (they pre-date Christ by around a hundred years) yet are almost identical to the texts we have in Museums today that date from the Middle ages?
Lawrence you speak truth to add
the French archaeologist Paul-Emile Botta between 1842 and 1844 found alot .The British Museum has numerous artifacts depicting Sargon including the “Sargon Vase” which contains an inscription with his name on it.
If your life depended on it, could you explain, using mathematics, how Einstein arrived at E=mc^2?
El, Anyone of above average intelligence would have a MUCH better chance of explaining Einstein's Theory than u would of proving the existence of your God. Your assignment is futile and fatal. At least I know my assignment is possible. FAIL :(
Straw Man! This question is not about intelligence,or fundamentalists. This question is about INDOCTRINATION which can override intelligence. U should cease using this argument. I can't defend such silly trickery, without feeling cognitive dissonance
John Colar , you also say one thing may be right. Really how did you mis the rest.could it be you limited your reading
There are countless subjects that are true. It all depends if you are trying to find fault from the start
So Is it ok for me to conclude that the Bible is an accurate History, with the magic that's written in it? If that magic does not happen in this day and time, how can I believe that this is accurate? If it were accurate, shouldn't there be magic now?
What magic? Plus read the books go to library or look online and decide for yourself. Plus a lot of people practice magic in today's world. Not me however
So are u saying that since people practice "magic" that makes it real? Can u give me the link to any professional magicians who actually perform REAL magic? So far, magic has not been proven to exist in the real world. Only illusions...
I do not do magic so I cannot answer the question. You need to ask people who practice magic.
You say that magic isn't real. Yet evolutionists would have us believe that prokaryotes magically appeared out of nowhere.
Getit no he did not fail . you fail to undestand , when he reached out to you from his heart to help you understand
he proved what he is made of not failure.
Caring is not failure to your fellow human.
Kiss, Im pretty sure that u don't understand the question. He asked me a question, that he thinks somehow negates a question that I previously asked him. Since I thoroughly debunked his premise, he failed in his attempt. Plz post under correct answer
No these are fictional characters . but the difference here is that we exist based on the existence of him who created all things. santa, Easter bunny,
Leprechauns , they do not claim to create humans.
Only he does. Isaiah 45:12.
Really? Intelligent minds discount the bible and billions of followers as fairy tale advocates. Wow - 3% are really smarter that 70%? What beautiful arrogance. What an ego.
Eric you continue to commit the APPEAL TO POPULARITY fallacy. Look it up...
This argument has been thoroughly debunked...now please try something else. Thanks
@Kiss, Santa claims to deliver millions of presents in one night. @Eric, one billion people can believe in something. It still doesn't make it true.
The problem with your answer is santa claus is a fictional character taken and costumed and betrayed by family heads. We know the truth even about santa so you can not compare God who created you to santa. You are real
So is the one who created you
@Kiss and Tales, the problem is that you believe Jesus and God are not fictional characters.
MoneyM thats your problem , never been mine. I am truly sorry for the deceit that many fall for. But everything has a purpose. If that is what you want to believe no one is stoping you even the Heavenly Father.
@Kiss and Tales, everything has a purpose? What was the purpose of this 4 year old girl getting raped and murdered? http://ewn.co.za/Topic/Four-year-old-raped-by-uncl...
MoneyM sad story , I have heard worse
and before she existed many atrocities done to humans, but you see you are on one side of a door , you only see your side because you can not see on the other side of the door. There is far more that caused this
Kiss and Tales, what are you talking about? Please speak clearly.
MoneyM as you can see space is limited , I would like to explain to you
But I am limited 250 Word count.
Most people get anoid when I use their space.
Be glad to write you email if it is avaible here.
Kiss and Tales, write a Hub about it.
MoneyM. For you and because of your love and concern of the terrible things done to any human including this precious life you have shared. It would be my duty to share the answers to why. My device has changed. I will publish to you give me a week
So by that logic if anybody claims to have created humans, or is somebody writes a character to create humans, it gives that being more of a possibility to be real? Just because of a fiction claim of a fictional character?
But the very core of Christian belief systems are based more on the magic than any of the REAL historical accounts in the bible. We know that Rome and Egypt existed, but thats irrelevant. Virgin birth, and resurrection are the foundation of system
Isn't it great, some based on fact and history and some just plain old based on faith. Now that is the making of a good book.
Yes, it has entertainment value, but the problem is that people are leaving the theater with the "story" and living it as their reality, instead of leaving it there at the theater. That's a huge problem!
Getit your question reminds me of
Two men one completly blind . the other 20-20 vision.
The blind man tells the one with 20-20 that he does not see stars in the heavens.It is your imagination, and this man sees stars every clear night
Who is right
who decides what is proof? numbers and science in countless examples are able to back more than one proven result remember when dna was 100% accurrate? how do you explain identical twins? there is the same 100% dna match
I certainly have experienced the opposite, Men were used as secretaries to pen the messges of our creator. Men do this all the time in the busy office world , thougts are written and transmitted through human secretaries. We live out what is written
Great answer John. And over the centuries of translations, they continued this same scam, Tricking gullible fearful people into believing that a God was the author of this abject nonsense.
Getit I will not label all people bad. Drivers. Niether will I say do not buy a car based on my experienced of seeing bad drivers.
Your experience may be valid and good reason for leaving . but the Heavenly Father did not decieve you
It never ceases to amaze me how many people are so sure that THEY are not the ones being 'deceived' - especially with inconsistent beliefs among peers. Absolute belief means that the mind is closed to other possibilities and maybe even the truth.
Interesting concept. Absolute belief causes a closed mind. I have an open mind to consider that concept. Yet I have absolute belief. I wonder how that works - oops open mind again.
You're right, the Heavenly Father did not deceive me, because he is imaginary. People claiming that some voice from outer space inspired them to write stupid stuff in a book tried to deceive me. They failed, because I dont have a weak mind.
Get I think you just showed a case of absolute belief equals a closed mind. You prove that it can be. Closed mind equals strong mind? I find that sounds wrong. Your mind is definitely closed to the possibility of God. Not strong.
Eric, my mind is not closed to the possibility of a God. It's just that I'm not susceptible to BS. There is a distinct difference. Just any ole made up God will not do. Brainwashed does not equal open mindedness.
Good for you get. That is a positive first step. Now keep an eye out for that BS.
Getit I do not think you are weak. I think that you have some good reasons to feel as you do, but you are missing the diamond by throwing away the coal.
So as you throw it all away you will never hold its value in a Jewel.
I HAVE NO NEED FOR RELIGION IN MY LIFE! Why is it so hard for u to understand that? Geez! I hate the whole concept. I have no need for saviors. I hate the concept of a Heaven, where I would be totally miserable. The whole thing is just #$%$%!
Then if you claim all this about the ssubject then why do you post questions on the subject.
So I will do you a favor. I will ignore your posted questions because you really do not want to know or care as stated.
I ask questions like this because I want to see if I overlooked something. When people tell me that they have new evidence that support their beliefs, I want to determine the veracity of their claim. I've learned a lot from posting questions
Getit you never admit you learn anything.You learn strategy against people who feel and experience a relationship with their creator which you mock.
I really would like to hear in all sincerity
What have you learned. I can say I am wrong prove it
I learned that whoever wrote and edited the current bible, kept just enough references to real places and events to give some semblance of authenticity to this book. And that there are Archaeological finds that allegedly support events. Maybe not. .
Getit just want to say thank you for sharing the comment what I learned.
We all had a beginning. Mine was similar to yours but I know my destination is in sight with no doubt as truth.
I hope you have success when you reach the path .
Getit you are against religion understood , I can understand why because of bad representations and hypocricy.
But even Jesus face the same thing
Yet he did not deny his Father.
Example I may not agree to how a person drives a car.
Like raising the dead. parting the Red Sea,talking snakes, magic fish and loaves, walking on water. Yep these were just tricks to show off some sort of supernatural powers for entertainment. OK.
Please explain this a bit: "It truly is the belief of a higher purpose in souls that leaves us to question and demand that proof exists either within the Scientific or the Spiritual worlds." Interesting but too nebulous.
If a book is that twisted, why would u choose to believe that it is the word of God. It cant even be honest about what ACTUALLY happened in the past. I dont think it was embellished, I think it was simply fabricated. No Moses, no captivity, etc....
There's no need to become offensive. This question was created in response to another thread, where a hubber tried to make me admit that the Bible is an accurate history. So far there is no reasonable evidence without the aid of blind faith.
I was just being a smart A$$.
Now, now Leon. He might be argumentative but he is not a Troll. He is a decent person.
lois- sorry but, a decent person would not come to the bible, Christianity & Jesus section and bash Christianity.
MoneyM , Just sent you a copy of a hub written request I have not published. But I hope you will undestand.
Getit we can not say all food is bad neither can our bodies survive without it.Even though you claim not to believe
You still benefit from the resources he provide for our survival.We certainly can not make a seed, rain, or the sun to make food
Just because we dont understand some things does not mean that the Bible is true. Your answer is an example of a Non sequitur fallacy.
Actually, science is in conflict with holy books. And there is no evidence whatsoever that a spiritual world exists. It's also obvious that if holy books were not programmed into people, they would be considered childish and foolish...which they are!
Getit everytime you reply you prove the point
I must say not from Gods view but another.
You prove his personality which are things he says.
getitrite, Can you see the wind? Obviously not.
But you can certainly feel it.
What about sky? Can you see the sky ?
Clearly we read different science books. The latest science books by all writers use the same evidence to say there is no conflict between the two, it's the personal interpretation where the difference lies. Not the hard evidence!
Life and truth are not separate from life and faith. Where they concur is where real truth is found. Get likes to separate and find fault. This is not congruent with enlightened understanding through science or faith. This wise look for similarities
Yes, Eric, I'm a skeptic. Thats what we do. those people would have turned out a lot better if they had questioned Jim Jones with the inquiries that I present. Survival?!
@Lawrence, Yes interpretation...or confirmation bias..or Non sequitur.
getit, i think this source might be helpful to understand http://ultraxart.com/the-hidden-reality-of-art-spi...
@sandytkd, No, but I can see the effects of the wind. This does not help your argument whatsoever...since Meteorologists can explain how wind works. This is merely a really shallow version of the "God of the gaps" fallacy...or Argument from ignorance
I agree with most of what you're saying, Except for Jesus. If he did exist, I'm pretty sure he couldn't magically heal people. Only the application of medicine, care and therapy, or the body's ability to heal itself, has been shown to work.
Misfit: U should've "WAITED" for the "POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT" who discerns ALL TRUTHS (changes in Bible)!
Have you ever cut yourself? Did the cut scab? Did the scab fall off and reveal a healed wound? How did that happen? By magic? Jesus didn't magically heal people. He simply healed people. No magic necessary.
@El Shaddai, so I guess u were there?
Why will you not answer my question? No, I was not there in Jesus's time? Were you alive when George Washington became the first President of the United States? Yet the US still exists, right?
Your whole maneuvering act here is just one big non- sequitur. Your real purpose is to derail the discussion. Just stop trying to pretend that magic is REAL, and that u are special enough to know the source of this magic. Thats not true!
Since you will not answer my question, I can only assume that you are afraid of getting at a truth that you are not ready to accept.
OK. No my cut did not heal by magic. So go ahead with your non sequitur...but i have answered your question. It's not like u are the first indoctrinated mind to ask such nonsense. Now show me just what I'm supposed to be afraid of. LOL!
The fact that the body can heal itself is proof of a powerful force beyond your understanding. Even you cannot explain how the body heals. In fact, nobody can explain it.
El Shaddai, this is how the body heals itself. http://surgery.med.miami.edu/burns/get-the-facts/s...
I guess u never took high school Biology. Guess you've never heard of the immune system, or how white blood cells work. This has all been figured out a long time ago. So sorry...
Getitrite and Money Man: Explain quantum entanglement. Does that work by magic? I'm waiting ^_^.
Faith is no way to come to a sensible conclusion, unless you just don't care about the truth. There is a way to understand this question, and I think it has to do with how adamant one is about honesty.
Interesting Get -- you associate faith with dishonesty. I think one can be honest in faith. Cool term "intellectual honesty". But it does not preclude faith.
Your premise 1-5 is lacking. Holy inspiration is not included. A dogmatic institutionalized inspirationallized concept is born to the negation of real personalized inspiration. This is lost among the disbelievers. living is real.
Good answer Peter.
You have quoted several Bible verses? Were you once a church goer? How do you know so many Bible verses?
So do you believe that magic, sorcery, spells, roots, and all that stuff is real? Even magicians don't believe that. I asked this as a logical question. Why should I, an adult, believe in magic...when there is no evidence of magic in the real world?
Getit, you have the choice to believe or not to, but today if you Google the subject the world is ful of this practice , many call it different names throughout the four corners of the earth , voodoo, black magic, spells, canny power. Many more .
Yes, there are real witches, and Satanic witches who work with demons. You don't hear about them because they don't go public. I know because I have read their accounts of how they came to Jesus. However, they don't do the stuff you see on TV.
Kiss, what about the American slaves? They practiced Voodoo, and Witchcraft, yet they still remained slaves their entire lives. I'm quite sure if magic were REAL, they would have been able to save themselves. THE LAWS OF NATURE CANNOT BE VIOLATED..
Getit the bible holds a higher value then these things mention, how is that possible, well if I told you that the cures to all sickness exist and will be given. The cure to reverse old age, the cure to stop people from dying. The cures for earth.
Sorry, but your last response was pretty incoherent to me. U seem to just be parroting whimsical fantasy, due to a post hypnotic suggestion. Still I've seen no evidence whatsoever in these claims. Seems you've been tricked, now you trying to trick me
Now you show true colors. You clearly meant magic as a derision against miracles. Really billions of people are wrong but you are right. Clearly you have not need for a God for you have made yourself one.
You phrased your question incorrectly, as it presumes that there is magic in the Bible. A better question would have been, "Is there magic in the Bible"? The answer would have been, "No, there is no magic in the Bible."
No, it is u who is mistaken, or most likely u have a need to twist things, But I prefer to call things by what they are. If it looks like a horse, and sounds like a horse, and walks like a horse, I;m gonna call it a horse.
Express what I notice is how you say the bible is not history makes one think you never read the bible.The bible contains a list of the dominant world powers that existed.Egypt.Rome ,Babylon ,Persian
Same names in other none christian books
Grace I ask you is it true that humans die,?
Adam and Eve died as was written history,
What about the governments, did the Babylonian impire exist yes ! Did the Roman
, Persian, did Cyrus who conquered Babylon ? Ezr 1:2 Thus saith Cyrus king
But I have been told that the parts core to Christianity ARE TRUE, but are the parts that are the most improbable, because, well...they involve magic. Ergo.Jesus is a magic savior, virgin gives birth, Red Sea parting, Garden of Eden. Resurrection, et
Since "unbelievers," will NEVER exp the POWER (Acts 1:8) of the HOLY SPIRIT!
So, provide the "book!"
Should've BELIEVED & "WAITED" (Acts 1:4) for the POWER (Acts 1:8), then would understand cheap "magic" NOTHING vs "POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!"
Lol! Did Moses or Jesus say Abra Kadabra while performing their miraculous signs?
Your answer itself counters itself. Yes, some followers were fishermen, another is a former tax collector, and how then, can these 'uneducated' men write these " descriptive history, metaphor, & to some, literature."?
Thanks for the comical threats. I guess u are embarrassed to admit that you believe in magic. I would be angry too. Its called cognitive dissonance. But getting angry doesn't change the fact that there are adults who still believe in magic
This question was meant as a bullying tactic. Getitrite wants to dog Christianity as much as possible with others, or belittle and mock the believers. There really is no point to try reasoning with him. He is not looking for anything but mean fun.
Loli, there u go with your double standards again. U were just fine when you joined in with roob to gang up on me...even though u both had weak arguments, u seem to think that u could make your ridiculous position the one of reason. How absurd
He probably won't be scoffing on Judgement Day
Lois, here u go again with these empty threats! If u could lose the blind faith, u would be embarrassed to see just how comical this sounds, And why would u wish such punishment on me, just because I dont agree with your delusion? Now that's EVIL!
I had edited that question but still came like that. I get annoyed since it does seem that you put down my faith. Will never lose that faith which you consider blind. Not after being cured of stg 4 cancer without treatments. God's healing hand
I say, the more the merrier!
It's great that u beat cancer. If u believe that a character from a Bronze Age book is the reason for this cure then that is your belief, but that doesn't prove the truthfully of this Godl. To counter that: There are many dying from diseases daily
Miracles do not happen every day. This was a miracle.
Count me in with stage 4 cancer that could not be cured yet here I am 20 years later. No proof. Just one more alive human being with no reason to it. No proof either way. Just someone alive with no scientific reason to be so. Go figure we prayed.
Get KNOWS! He's just "angry" because wasn't "taught" Scripture & didn't KNOW to "WAIT" (Acts 1:4) for "POWER" (Acts 1:8) which would've produced "proof" as we have exp'd!
Not too late! Go back & "WAIT!"
I myself was on my death bed at 30. Heart failure. I had made peace with what was happening to me. I never prayed, not even once. So u cant attribute my recovery to prayer. There is something called ODDS and PROBABILITIES! No fairy tales required.
Did you heal by magic?
No, There is no such thing as magic. I said ODDS & PROBABILITIES! Do u know what that means? It should explain everything. I beat the odds, It happens all the time. Doctors probably missed something. No Gods required!
You've got it wrong Charlie,
'Bible Bashing' is reserved for charismatic defensive christians who cannot pledge or reason a point without attacking their opponents with book, chapter & verse quotations from THB.
Hence - Bible Bash.
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