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Thanks Aime, your views and the life style as you said is no different than a theist, but you say you are atheist, I think you need to contemplate how good morals have become an obstinate part of your personality? What’s that driving force call?
I think most humans are inherently good, but I also credit my (agnostic and atheist) parents for teaching me great things. I value life and other people's lives, so for me it's common sense to act morally.
True Aime, could you please tell me where that common sense came from?
Muhammad, Contrary to what you are trying to imply, morals did not come from any gods or religions. Religions simply invented gods, then pretended that these imaginary beings were behind the premise of what was already instituted by human evolution.
It's a popular conscience that humans are not their own creator.God is not an invention rather he is an inner urge that's why at the time hardship we remember him.Morals are nothing but the functioning of organs,hand raised is sin if helped virtue.
Muhammad here you are just leading the question. You want it to point to your beliefs... Just because a certain feeling will point to some idea for some does not mean it is like that for all. You connect the two, it's a personal relationship...
muhammad, speak for yourself but dont assume that everyone is as shallow as to think that since there are things we don't understand, we should insert a god, and usually one of someone else's imagination. Calling on God is a result of indoctrination.
I wouldn't go that far. I still think you could come to an understanding yourself that resembles some concepts of god and then make a leap of faith and find what you are looking for in certain existing ideas without being 'indoctrinated'.
Some people have NO concept of a God. Therefore this would not apply to them, however, i can understand someone using this method, if they wanted to find something to comfort themselves. But some people simply dont have the need for a God.
I more or less agree on that.
getrite, need for a God to live and need for air to breath, I think this need to be cleared, not to speak of any religious doctrines, just by convention we see right from the advent of man, God has always been an epicenter of human lives.
Muhammad, I see that you have constructed your own understanding of "God," and that satisfies your mind. Please have the decency to realise that others, myself included, do not accept the existence of a god in reality. Each mind thinks for itself.
Yes Alan by all means I would like to realize, but what I am trying to emphasize is that if we don't need God it should be made clear because by convention we see God has always been part of human lives.
Muhammad, It is clear that your mind is stuck within the parameters of your indoctrination. It seems that no explaining can expand the parameters to let u see that there is no God required for humans to be good. U should try to breach the parameter
To answer your question to my comment: Faith may not necessarily require an immortal soul. Conversely, a soul can be lost and then found in the flesh.
@Muhammed religious practice and belief is closely related to custom. Poly vs Mono. Mono became more prevalent when sedentary for example. You make it a priori, but mostly it seems to follow from something else. What is not known, social needs, etc..
why do so many atheists develop an inspired anti religious fervour instead of just forgetting about the issue. I've rarely seen such inspired fervour to attack religion.
@Oztinato you do expose your religious beliefs in the public realm. In my country people discuss neither that much. Just now when we are more or less forced to live with more very religious immigrants and problems that arise again concerning rights.
I'm doing my social duty and combatting attempts at cultural genocide. Such genocide is rapidly leading to a tacky McCulture built on money, drugs and porn.
Oh, probably because people like you come out with their fists up ready to throw punches. I'm not anti-religion but I'm also not just gonna "forget about it" when people have such rude things to say about MY beliefs or try to force THEIRS on me.
I note you have avoided the issue of the cultural genocide of indigenous people. That is not an insult just a very pertinent observation
@sam, I think religious practices and beliefs are not closely related to custom rather they define a definite custom, unhealthy and unrealistic understanding of that definition give rise to differences of beliefs.
Oz, unless people are FORCED to not practice a religion or believe in a god, there is no "cultural genocide". It's just a transparent attempt at using an emotive word to demonize someone you disagree with + it cheapens the impact of actual genocides.
I'm still trying to figure out what atheists in the world are taking it upon themselves to care about the religious culture of native Americans and Tibetans...
Oz and Thomas. This need to be probed that whether a Force factor exist in the religion or its just a misuse of the vested interest, and if there is a possibility then in what circumstances does this factor come into play?
cultural genocide is occuring now in many indigenous cultures. There are many contributing factors to this. Atheist stereotyping of religion is definitely one of those contributing factors. Don't "wash your hands of it" by denying it.
So the tiny portion of the world that are outspoken atheists, most of whom argue only against monotheism such as Islam and Christianity, are somehow responsible for the destruction of artwork, artifacts or religious buildings somewhere? Nonsense.
Oz, cultural assimilation of indiginous people started long ago with European Christians. Not sure why you seem to think not respecting their culture is an atheist thing.
Oz, you go on about Cultural
genocide + blaming atheists - yet, U seem 2 ignore that the religious missionaries to discovered countries caused both cultural + actual genocide - see the history of NZ + any other 'colonised' country. It's not atheists
you're saying because past mistakes were made by some that makes it ok to repeat the same mistakes. That's plainly ridiculous
No one is saying it's okay. What we're saying is that it's NOT something that stems from atheism as you seem to be claiming.
New atheism movements are making a big contribution to attempts at eradicating all religion ie cultural genocide. Normal old atheism doesn't do that it just keeps to itself.
How are atheists eradicating religion? All I've seen you say on this is "atheists are stereotyping religion". Well religions stereotype other religions too. It's not an atheist thing. Every group stereotypes every other group.
Neglected to actually give a specific incident of New Atheists committing cultural genocide.
Starting to sound awfully fake...
And if you look at how Africa and South East Asia have had their religious landscape transformed in the last century into Christians and Muslims, I wonder how many cultural traditions have vanished as a result. It's just how change happens though.
It's like the "white guilt" method of shaming atheists. Try to convince them they are somehow tangentially responsible for atrocities taking place halfway around the world for ideological reasons that have nothing to do with them, or with atheism.
Very interesting concept. This notion of guilt by similar thought is scary.. It certainly runs on all sides of important issues. Create a group and blame that group for problems. Racism without the race.
No one is getting "saved" in here, We have all agreed nothing inspires an atheist... moving on.
This guy has raised this question just to shove his fist down others throats. He's too shallow. People are giving elaborate explanations here. But there's no point in replying to this person and wasting time. He doesn't want to understand others.
the question is what inspires atheists. Check out hp and we can see how inspired they are to attack religion. Attacking religion =cultural genocide.
So the cultural genocide is just a result of an overactive imagination, some weird denial of reality, and stereotypes. No specific incidents of new atheists eradicating culture from the planet, just that they say mean stuff you dont agree with.
It is ALL religion. The only question that matters is who or what does one worship?
Interesting definition Dremer, do you see any possibility of a "beginning" to the "conclusion" ?
sounds very scientific but can you see the enormous inspiration to attack religion on hp? Many atheists seem to get excited and inspired by anti religious fervour wouldn't you say?
MAJ - I suppose the beginning of said conclusion is the moment you realize there are religions other than your own.
OZT - HP is pretty mild on both sides of this debate. If people are excited it's because HP gives a platform from which to speak.
there are certain atheist hubbers trying to make a living out of anti religious hubs. The vicious insulting anti religious hubs etc are ubiquitous and undeniably prominent
They can't be that prominent, considering they've never made it onto the home page or newsletter. And, no offense to HP, but nobody is going to make a living off of those kinds of articles.
Hey Oz send us a list of such infamous articles -- it would be interesting to see
Thanks getrite, I wonder how come a person realises the "stuff to be ancient foolish ritualistic nonsense" so precisely but fail to know what actually the truth is? And how to be wise enough to resort to realistic form of religious practices?
Who cares if we don't know what the actual truth is. That doesn't mean that we can just make up stuff...or believe in someone else's made up stuff. The fact of the matter is that neither you nor I know anything about the existence of a god.
Knowing the truth is the biggest urge of humans, that's why they have a unique intellect that distinguishes them from rest of the creatures. As far relying on other's stuff, its a Divine arrangement for us to know the truth, same as we get educated.
Keep in mind it always seems to be subjective truth. In this field we can nearly never get past that. This is what makes it different from natural sciences and good it is like that, otherwise it would devalue faith entirely.
Sensible approach Sam.
if it's only just a silly thing why is there such anti religious fervour online? Surely that reveals the true inspiration of many atheists
Oz, so u are alleging that atheists are dishonestly hiding the real reason for their inspiration. And that our true inspiration is just hatred? So, I ask, what is the INSPIRATION for the hatred? Why would someone hate your wonderful religion?
Get, I like how you reframed it. Certainly limited to a small group of individuals. But I wonder what does inspire an atheist to hate a religion like Christianity. Clearly the hate does exist in small circles. But why?
Eric, many people confuse criticism on religion with hatred. Richard Dawkins who criticises religion a lot does not hate religion.
People who are criticised do not always like this, especially if it touches a profound emotion.
Just take Getitrite, he probably even professes that he does not hate religion but his words most surely evidence that he does. Some hate.
I think worthy of hate is evil but not the one who indulges in healthy criticism
Eric, I feel no obligation to embrace ancient dogmas, based on nothing but ancient human ignorance. If u prefer to label that as HATE, then go right ahead. I simply challenge your implausible assertions - which, until now, have enjoyed carte blanche.
Get, even in this seemingly fairly innocuous comment there just is the vibe of vitriolic anger and hate. It is very interesting. Not one of your empirical deals. But it exists nevertheless. It goes to the heart of this question. Why and what inspires
My hostility is toward the BS that I allow others to control my mind, by demanding that I accept dishonesty as truth. I have no respect for dishonesty, and I feel sorry for those who cant escape the mind control that compels them to be dishonest.
Well at least you admit to it. What did my personal faith ever do to you.
Your personal faith is not bothering me. It's when it is brought to a public forum. Then Im gonna tell u what I think of it. It's a simple observation to see that ur beliefs are based on nothing but indoctrination. U just refuse to accept that
Interesting. Can't believe in God, but you believe you can read my mind and know my personal faith through the internet.
You may be right John but I wonder how come human lives be without a definite form of morals? Forget about the world, it is impossible to control even a tiny society without definite set of rules and regulations & a country without a constitution
muhammad, You talk about social control - this has much to do with why politics and religion have often gone hand in hand. The promise of rewards and threats of punishment are powerful tools in the hands of governments of all persuasions.
@Muhammed what are your thoughts about sharia law?
does this turn into an obsessive inspiration to destroy all religion? Is that what drives many online atheists?
I agree with John Welford, "the world would be a happier and safer place if all religion disappeared tomorrow"-Consuelo D Luzarraga (Bibi.)
Consuelo and Welford - Visualization of a world without any religion would be interesting
Unfortunately in life, there are two topics of arguments that no one can win. One is politics and the other is religion. There is always one who knows best...!
Most of what you say is difficult to argue with, however, we are not all so judgmental. If we are to go by the Bible we are not supposed to judge. We are sinners ourselves so how can one not be tolerant of another. Mine is strong due to Him only.
but what really "inspires" them is to relentlessly attack religion. Certain atheists spend 99% percent of their online time doing it. They must be very inspired :)
See that final paragraph about the way religions hold back society? If the world would be a better place with less religion, or at least less fundamentalism, & there's no good reason to believe in God then it's worth arguing against religion/thei
That's what the atheist inspiration is? Destroying religion equals cultural genocide for indigenous people. What about Tibetan culture?
What inherent value is there in culture?
If something amounts to culture it must necessarily be protected? What about bad culture?
Could the value of Tibet not remain or manifest otherwise, without religion? :)
That is a cool question as to the intrinsic value or a set doctrine. Does Tibet already live in my home. Extinction of an idea? Can there be a cultural obliteration of a concept? Are the precepts of a "religion" and physical manifestations important?
to try to eradicate entire religious cultures is the preoccupation of materialists, boors and facists. In many temples in China men are paid to pretend to be monks for tourists. Hollowing out religion is perverse.
Thanks Link. Being objective leads to truth and it's a common belief, then how come the natural result of objectivity leads to disbelief?
Because there isn't any truth in something you personally cannot show to someone else, regardless of who they are, nor is there truth in something that people can't agree on and who may quite literally attempt to kill in order to get converts.
Truth is something for which you need to resort to just a reminder, rest of the things follows thereafter. It is as if you are relating a color of an object before the one who has eyes. The heart knows the truth, you need to be just cautious enough.
There are different philosophical sides to the color argument actually. The ones that see color as an abstract thing of itself (that exists in a truth realm) and the ones that more or less only see it as a property or predicate to a certain subject.
Sam, that which can be perceived is a reality, the realm of truth encompass the fathomable, to be very specific the human conscience support the fact that the reality is reality by all means, neither it can be denied nor wrongly interpreted.
In this thread, Muhammad, it seems you are trying to confirm your beliefs in your own mind. You seem to be using others, trying to "convert" them to your understanding, in order to justify your beliefs.
Do not assume everyone you talk to on here is a human being. Many profiles are actually computer programs designed to confuse and confound you. Welcome to the machine
many atheists seem incredibly inspired to relentlessly attack religion in a kind of "anti religious fervour" .
I for instance normally enjoy philosophy. Here I click section Religion & Phil..But it's just religion, theology and then some paranormal and pseudo stuff. So these are the only discussions and often not that interesting.Will leave...
Philosophy evolved out of religion. Without respecting and acknowledging religion we cant appeciate philosophy. Instead such people will use it for political purposes and hidden agendas.
@ oz- excellent point made there. I would personally rephrase it to say that science explains how we got here and religion explains why we are here. Philosophy is merely exploration of thought. Thoughts can become beliefs. Belief can become reality.
Hawking agrees with Godels Incompleteness Theorem which proves science can NEVER answer all questions. Philosophy and religion are the only means we have of understanding the whys
True. We are all born without belief and in reality EVERYONE is an atheist when it comes to most of the possible gods.
Even theists are atheists outside of their specific religion.
It's like the epitomy of irony for atheist haters...
cfin, if we speaks of a default mode than there is another possibility of belief, how do you justify it, please let me know
I believe cfin meant the only reason people practice any particular religion is because they were taught to do so. Like speaking a language, you can't practice or believe something you know nothing about.
Yoleen if we believe as you said it means that a person follows the dictates, then how come he find his own ways as far his intellectual and material development is concerned. Why his one aspect is subjected to dictates and other one is not?
I don't understand what you mean, but what I meant is that people are Christian / Muslim / Buddhist / or none of the above based on how they're raised. If they change religions later, it's only because they were exposed to it.
We are born ignorant. We are born without any knowledge of religion or lack thereof. So as a default, we are all atheist. Some are inspired to be religious. But you can't be inspired to be what you are born as.
Interesting notion. The concept of "what is being inspired" is not so clear cut. It seems to entail something more than merely motivated. "Divinely inspired" has a good ring to it.
cfin, Perhaps you should speak for yourself. I was not born ignorant, and neither will I die in such a condition.
Then you are the sole exception apparently Wrench.
Aren't you special...
Yes, I am special. But I am not the sole exception. Neither am I afflicted with a low self-esteem that makes me contemptuous of those above my station, or who command a talent that I do not possess.
Rock On Ronnie!
NO ONE is born with any religious belief!!! We are ALL born ignorant to almost everything except mom's nipple, and even that sometimes! :)
I would go beyond that, Annsalo, to say that we are all born knowing the truth and spend the rest of our lives trying to wake up our parents, while our children try to wake us up
Annsalo, how would one empirically prove your position. Is knowledge only that which can be communicated through language? The only thing we really know about the youngest mind is that it does not think yet as we do.
I would say considering all the parts of the world without religion is proof. None of use believed anything until taught. I didn't. I don't think there is anyone who can prove they did.
Annsalo, you are right, proof is absent. Science just has not yet developed far enough to know what an infant believes. I do understand that that part of the brain where belief comes from is active in an infant. We just don't know what about.
Eric, science alone will NEVER be able to answer that question. What did you think about as an infant? REMEMBER
Joshua it is quite funny that you say "science will never". Will man ever learn to stop limiting the possibilities of knowledge?
Ronnie be trippin', yo!
be careful taking my words out of context, Eric. I wrote that science ALONE will never... What good is having all of the knowledge in the universe if there is no CONSCIOUS user to direct it? That would make you a robot. What animates you?
many of them get awfully inspired to attack religion online. Is Dawkins inspired?
I relate to what Ronnie WrenchBiscuit said. I was born with a feeling, not a knowledge. I tried to find it in church. I've been accused of being an atheist because I left the church, but I still believe that we are all part of a universal creation.
@MizB You are most correct. Now understand this: the bible is not about THE God, but about the 'God' of humanity. All humans creations of that God and many humans are literal children of that God.
This is trivially true. A chair is an atheist as well, that doesn't mean anything.
Many people also just don't care. Live the world as it comes, make money and watch netflix, buy cars,... Which is for me the same as a person who goes to church because it always was like that, but never questions or reads different views...
Very interesting. It seems man is inclined toward looking for some resolution of the unknown. I wonder if we are inspired or driven. Both the theist and the atheist are looking.
For me philsophy and other questions became more prominent when 'all' was 'achieved'. I have a good life, but most 'normal' things don't offer me value. Questions and possible ideas make it more valuable. Understanding and connecting.
scientific reasons aside surely no one could deny the intense emotional fervour many atheists practice online against religion. Isn't that their true inspiration?
I think you'll see reaction as soon as you make it more than your personal belief or opinion or when state it as a basis for action in the world. You'll enter the realm of political opinion more or less. That will always see fierce attack...
all theses things Evolved out of religion. Anthroplogy alone proves this emphatically. All science originally evolved out of religion as well.
Littlejohn, Oztinato is wrong. Mankind needs to unshackle itself from the Gods. Science is the opposite of faith.
What are the ways of unshackling from God jgshorebird?
Thanks Ann, of the ten points I would like to know about the zero proof of God, don't you think that your existence itself is a proof of God? What do you say about the systematic happenings beneath the earth and in the heavens?
My existence is only proof my parents had sex. It's all science! And so is the rest you mentioned. Science is a wonderful thing! It pretty much proves everything religion fails to prove, with few exceptions.
Don't you ever wonder how science itself came into being? How did everything come into existence at the first place? What is the power behind each first creations or first-time happenings? Whether it is the egg or the hen and how did it come?
Not really. I've been called an idiot once for not caring how we were created. Personally I see things as look toward the future and the present. We are here now. What we do w/ what we have now is so much more important than how we became.
I leave the science to scientists. Do I sit in awe at what the world is? Yes, but there is no point spending my life trying to figure out the beginning when I never know when the end is. More imp. to me to live for the now and the future, than past.
Venkat has raised a valid point Ann, would like to hear from you.
Would the question be more then, how does something come from nothing or how do we cycle from the universe to a spark an back again. Then you can of course ask for the cause of the cause. It would be arbitrary where to start to say the least...
Sam, that circular argument never stops,if one tries to find the cause of a cause and how does something came from nothing.if a student is not aware of the basics,for him every problem is a problem.So the basics have to be clear to know the truth
I would say that cause cannot ever be fully understood by us finite human forms. I agree with Annsalo, there is no point in dwelling upon the enigma. Get on with life. Cease trying to conscript others to your own understanding. Be free.
All of this exactly Annsalo. I am deeply moved by life itself and the process and find it freeing to not be constrained by the dogmas of others and to open my mind.
Do you agree that many atheists get excited and inspired by attacking religion?
Evil exists because without it there can be no good. Deal with it. All humans are a mixture of both good and evil. As is the biblical God. Deal with it. What YOU don't understand is what evil is exactly.
Thanks manatita, if someone is good at heart means by nature he is inclined towards a Divine force. If someone is able to make out the happenings to be good or bad, than why can't he be an ambassador of virtues with a faith in God?
Some do, Mohammad. I have taught Spirituality for 33 years and some have turned up in my classes. They speak of God, but in abstract terms. It is religious Gods that they have problems with.
True. They have a problem with the perception of God it seems.
Yes, Muhammad. Still, I know that like me you are accommodating. People must be allowed to have their own perceptions. I see murderers saying sorry and kissing their children. We are all a part of this Source called LOVE. So beautiful!
What a wonderful exemplary exchange of ideas in faith.
Thanks Brother Eric.
You're always so kind to me. God bless your noble Heart.
No doubt manatita that every one should have freedom of perceptions, but since we dwell together, there has to be a source of mutual understanding of perceptions.
But mutual understanding does not mean the same beliefs or doctrines...
The Source remains One, M, the Absolute ...but in that One diversity exists. Noble ideal. I commend you. But why are we still fighting? Still so different? Our role is simply to be the best we can be, based on our own level of awareness. Om Shanti!
Source may be different but human perceptions can't.Virtues have universal acceptance but different sources potray different forms.Differences arise when compulsion factor plays it's role in describing right n wrong living aside the Divine guidance.
Do you believe your perception is pure and value free or that perceive based on what you actually know and learned. I can argue you see the world as you are, as you've learned. I'm not talking about the fact we both experience rain...
By Source I meant the Absolute, M, the Perennial Entity from which all spring and live. The lute has its own sound, and the piano also. Both are necessary. Don't change, but Love this world. All are God's children; His play, not ours. Om Shanti!
@Muhammed following Manatita: Source would be the same, perception and interpretation isn't but would also be part of all. The One that is the many is in a sense the All. In that sense our idea about right and wrong is a reductio of what really is.
Yes, yes, Sam. Much wisdom there. There is only the Orange in the Yogi's world, only Oneness, but it has a rind, skin or peel, flesh, seeds, juice ...all playing their essential role in this tree of Life. Hari Om Tat Sat!!
sam / manatita..so in that case our ideas of right and wrong should have uniformity.
Muhammad, sameness and destruction are one. I like curries, another like rice and peas; one daughter likes music and another law. Perhaps you like Islam and another Judaism. Diversity is God's law, or should we all agree with you?
I am with you manatita that diversity of color and culture is the essence of life and it is God's law, but I am just trying to understand in what sense does God appreciate diversity about Himself?
You're such a nice guy. Why torture yourself? An easier way is to remain in the radiance of the Heart; to leave the intellect behind. It can only cause confusion. A child is very simple. Pray, serve, Love ...be like the child.
why does their inspiration turn into anti religious fervour almost like some kind of cult?
It is a subtle form of Ego, my good Friend, Oztinato. We actually mean well. We feel it is our duty to help or change the world, but God does not need this. He simply asks us to transform our own lower nature, into the Light Divine.
True dashingscorpio...I think difference between blind belief and, faith, has to be made clear. Even in our relationship and worldly affairs there are loads of things that we believe to be true, doesn't ask for any logic for there certification.
Wow - Luke 17:21 is very interesting. Of the different versions: Among you, within you, and in your midst. Is the "you" all of us? Is the you just us individually? Is the Kingdom in our individual hearts or is it in the communal - or both?
Excellent Eric. In the Quran 30:30 & 75: 14-15, the same subject has been described, that man is well aware of his self and returning back to his nature is a desired turning.
is this what inspires many atheist to conduct inspired crusades against religion?
Maybe revelation. Could it actually be the touch of the hand of God that inspires some believers?
Thanks gm , it seems, from all those points, the human conscience has no role to play, a person seems to be quite receptive to positive and negative religious shades, I think a person can be judgmental to accept the truth.
do you think that this turns into intense anti religious fervour? Is this what truly inspires many atheists?
Hey Stella it is really cool that Christians disagree with Christians and Atheists disagree with atheists. Constantly looking and reaching for more is so human and it is great we get that by questioning each other.
Thanks Ruby. It's amazing that a person not only denies the existence of God but lives a happy and prosperous life like theist. There should be some sound reasons behind an atheist's beliefs.
For many, at least for staying atheist, I think it is the "sound reason" problem. Not that they do not have reasons and logic for their "belief". Rather the opposite. They are hopelessly stuck in the one area of logic and reason. No balance.
Thanks Eric, then how come they manage their affairs as you know hope plays very crucial role here.
A funny thing I learned along this road Muhammad. There are perfect reasons to be good to your fellow man. We need not look to the heavens to find kindness in our hearts. Love exists without belief.
That's true Eric, I admire the way you think, but how is that the love remains constant without a belief in God?
Personally I think God is inseparable from love. Belief requires a conscious decision to believe. But the love is already in our hearts whether we make that decision or not. Just as we are given life freely without request, so are we given love.
I think Eric that love is rejuvenated with a belief, if the heart is not an amalgamation of faith and love, the credibility of love itself loses its charm.
the question is excellent as it asks what inspires many atheists. After not believing in God they seem to get very very inspired about attacking religion.
Maybe you should try history and archaeology. How does one discount what the history and archaeology tells us?
Damian, in what way would history and archaeology establish for me that I should adhere to any particular religion? The burden of proof is on those who are trying to show something to be true. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I always try to be as open minded as possible but if one is to consider the numerous archaeological finds including the Tel Dan Inscription, the Pilate Stone, the writings f Non Christians such as Tacitus and so much more. It makes me aware
I have heard plenty of arguments about this issue and have never found them to be anywhere remotely approaching persuasive. I'm happy to be proven wrong and once someone proves god's existence I'll convert.
That is fair enough. Perhaps I would be where you are if I had not lived it many, many years ago. My Dad should have died and there was no medical explanation for him not to. He lived another 15 years and managed to raise me and my siblings
With all respect for your father but why gives the same god a 4 year old cancer and this boy dies within half a year ?
There are many inexplainable things in the world but this does not mean that God is the answer or solution to those questions.
All that we had left was prayer and he somehow got better after a very difficult struggle. You are right about the four year old but I prefer to think of them as angels in Heaven. Sometimes God just takes home. The pain is over. Blssngs
So if something good happens, it's God. If something bad happens, it's also God, but he's just taking an angel home? Seems like there will always be `proof' of God when an emotive event with an unknown cause takes place.
Maybe we all get in trouble when we try to fit God in our little box and little world. Trying to reason God really is quite futile. We are finite and He is completely infinite. Sometimes tragedies do take place. They can be even eye open
Stacy, if hypocrisy in religious system is compelling to seek an alternative than why not one ends with a faith better than that? If not does it mean that there is nothing like truth in the world?
Lois, you mean to say the familial background plays an important role for a person to be theist or atheist, right? There are chances that he may become even a polytheist as it can be easily perceived if the family members happens to be polytheists?
Yes both ways. I know of some people who had parents with different beliefs like one Jewish and one Catholic, he had experience in both and leaned more for being Jewish
But I think that if you were to take a survey, you would find that most atheists come from religious families.
I will get back to you on that. I have to get a random sample around my city of about 100. The do some more samples of other areas and compare the results
Maybe this will help:
"Nearly eight-in-ten adults who currently identify as religious “nones” were raised in a religion, while just 21% were raised religiously unaffiliated"
Pew Research Center, May 12 2015
Well that just reflects society.
...was it supposed to represent something else?
Thanks. And results may differ from area to area. My reason is just one of many
But this was an average of all areas in the US...taking into account all of the variations. However, I won't hold your feet to the fire any longer, as I understand human nature. Have a great day!
I myself working on my Psychology thesis. Am getting some sleep.
If, according to survey, the religious background is paving the way for someone to opt for atheism, than we need to look at that background itself. As we know the truth leads to the truth and light never leads to darkness.
Actually get is right on this. Christian denomination makes up over 30% of world pop. So it would make sense that many atheists would be raised by believing parents, but as you said what are the reasons?
Lois I think Sam has pointed out some reasons, but I wanted to know what are the actual reasons that a person, being born and brought up in a religious atmosphere, tends to abandoned that and prefer to live a life of disbelief?
Oh you didn't specify that in your question. Annasalo has some excellent points as well. Really can't add more except maybe when people hear about diff religions'gods they may get to wondering
Lois l, from reasons behind inspiration to actual causes, many things have come up in our discussions so asked that. Yeah that's true Ann has excellently pointed out a few.
muhammad, Religious beliefs just seem foolish to some people. It sometimes starts at an early age...especially for children with sharp critical thought & higher aptitudes.Its difficult for the lies of religion to enslave the minds of such individ
I think the basic human nature supports the truth that's why we have universal values. It's not the question of enslaving of mind to religious dictates, its about the freedom of conscience to accept the truth to which human nature is compatible.
I hope u are not referring to your holy book as TRUTH, because that is not the truth, These books are no different than fairy tales. Objective truth is true, despite human's propensity for dishonesty.
Yes truth means objective truth that was I meant,this refers to the human nature Alan,I firmly believe that the truth has been precisely synchronized with human likes and dislikes. As far the Book you are referring to,you can see my hubs to know.
do you see the constant attacks on religion by online atheists as inspiring?
Oz there is nothing about this question or the replies that show any attack on Christianity. Most, if not all, in my response replied considerately. And yes with the other questions that attack Christians inspires me to believe even stronger
You actually bring up some pretty good points, however, what do you do with the history and the archaeology?
Christ taught about love and forgiveness. The world just does not seem to get it. Even being a
Christian religion can be a danger
I also believe religion and booklet is compulsory to balance people, if not politicians can't govern. Religion is the key and scripture /booklet is the guide and people are puppets..
A common religion "humanity" and a common god "God".
Thanks venkar sir, the reasons sounds good that over the period of time the charm in the god-belief loses its shine and a person prefer to be atheist, why don't he think of searching for a new God?
Depends in what kind of god one believes. In the Spinoza and pantheistic sense there are no answers. Life just is and all is one etc. Hardship and happyness need eachother, it's not always a value judgement then.
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So realistic Thomas. Then what actual are the causes for staying like that, it's been so long I think.
@Muhammed You could asked him why he hasn't bought a giraffe yet... You should ask for causes that would urge him to change... That's the logical way of leading the argument. You are leading him from your own not being able to understand why...
Perhaps no one forced Thomas to be religious. Perhaps he found a philosophy of his own that has allowed him to function in this world without believing in a power greater than himself. Shall religious people correct him, or shall God come on down?
but what really really inspires you? Is it the relentless attacks on religion?
Muhammad, I stayed an atheist (agnostic) because nothing caused me to change. The evidence wasn't there. The emotional need to invent evidence probably wasn't there either.
are you now inspired by athiems desire to destroy religion?
Oz, I'm inspired to provide people with scientific evidence about how religious beliefs are formed and maintained; such that they can make their own informed decisions. In this eventuality, I think the decision not to believe will become popular.
Thomas, I think the knowledge based on human endeavors has to be differentiated from the Divine one. Science can prove a particular Divine event but all the tenets and prerequisites of faith can't be judged on the bases of man-made disciplines.
have you stopped to consider the effects of trying to eradicate religion? Cultural genocide of indigenous culture for example. Tibetan religion? Science doesn't do that ignorance does.
Oz, I wouldn't be eradicating religion. We should all have the right to live in blissful delusion if we choose. I'd merely be giving people all they need to know about how the delusion works. Then, to quote John 8:32, the truth will set you free!
Exactly what I was thinking. You do not need "inspiration" to become an atheist. I too was born an atheist and stayed that way. I simply did not find the God theory plausible.
Thomas and Peter Srip, between blissful delusion and plausible theory of God do we have anything that can be convincing to our souls, as the state of satisfaction is one of its prime requirements?
Muhameadyou call atheism blissful delusion? Between believing in a god or gods and not believing there is something called agnosticism.
Personally I'm inspired by science and the beauty of nature and the universe not to believe in god or gods.
Peter it is really cool getting into both. I do not open one door and say this is the only door. I check out the other door and inspect, observe and analyze and feel. What a closed mind when we say "Science precludes God"
As an artist I work in a field where spiritual awareness is a must. I meditate and use more then my 5 senses. I don't rationalise everything but use my intuition. I do not need a God to comunicate to. Nature is full of amazing stuff and I love it.
the terms spiritual, meditation, art and nature worship are all firmly rooted in religious traditions. Even the concept of a non personal God is endemic to both Hinduism and Bhuddism as well as many indigenous and alternative religions.
true Oztinato, science,religion and art where once the same thing. But not anymore. You can practise meditation, art and herbalism without being a shaman or using the God/Gods concept.
the god concept is and has always been very fluid. Non personal enlightenment concepts and nature worship are defiantly religious. We can claim they're not but " its six of one half a dozen of the other "
I agree with you Oz, like the Gaia concept. But I do not see nature/universe as a consciente being with a masterplan or goal. If you think nature has a conscience (perhaps on another level) then I consider them to be religious. (not a bad thing)
McNabb just wanted to know how did you conclude that there are no gods to attribute the creation? I would be interesting to know your findings on that.
Muhammad my point was clear to those who allow themselves to understand.
do you now get inspired attacking religion online as do many other atheists? I've rarely seen such incredible inspiration to attack.
Ronnie, If soul is believed to be immortal than why is that we have states of satisfaction and confusion? Why is that we tend to appreciate the good and condemn the bad. I think the soul is being missed with its link to the very nature.
What about those who believed before but then became atheists? Did they lose their soul? Or those who started to believe late in life, did they randomly gain one?
A soul may not necessarily be a prerequisite for morality. Neither do physical emotions preclude, or affirm the presence of an immortal soul.
Ronnie, If morality can be depicted through life means the soul has a say, if a person is dead, so is an end to morality, I think the characters of a person make him either mortal or immortal, and soul has a definite say here.
What is a soul in the first place?
A soul is a memory file. It is a collection of memories. The souls of your ancestors are contained in your DNA and memories you collect are passed down to your children through your DNA. If you have no children, your death is your completion.
I do not think memories are past on through the DNA. I do not remember what my grandfather did when he was a kid.
I think what you are is more a comination of DNA and personal experience.
@ Peter the question was about what a soul is... Not a spirit. If you would like to know about your grandfather, ask him...
What is the progress of that journey of evolution, and how do they satisfy their subconsciousness of the soul are the points demand an explanation from you Oya
Being true to oneself is key witness to our lives. ‘When you know the truth, the truth will set you free’. When you are free, the soul's need to belong to &/or attend a church, group or religion becomes less justifiable & a more satisfactory
That is why faith is downright beautiful and certainly can be. Religion on the other hand can be and is dangerous. Getting to know God is really amazing. Man is the one that always gets in the way.
Logical and rational? Are we really supposed to understand God from our perspective? Far too much coincidence for me personally. I am as much of a realist as you will ever find. Too much evidence for God for me to ignore that. Plus, lived it.
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from birth? lol But science reveals God's character. It does not deny it
Every baby,child is an atheist because it has never learned the concept of an existence of a god just as it never has heard about the president of the United States. Everybody is born an atheist
i would say a baby is neutral. being unaware either way. are you saying atheism is not a choice?
If someone doesn't have the concept of a god, then they're atheist.
That IS the neutral position.
An atheist is choosing not to believe. Are you saying you do not make a decision about not believing. Then maybe you need to choose
Again, people who lack concepts of God's, like babies, are by default atheists (aka, neutral). In their case, there is no choice.
I make the decision not to believe because there is nothing that exists to make me believe without being dishonest.
I guess i just see it 3 ways. Atheists make a conscious decision not to believe for whatever reason. The second is neutral. True neutral because the person/baby is unaware of there being a choice. And third is believing.
The true neutral stance is to say "I don't/can't know for certain". You don't take the stance that a God exists, but you don't assert that one doesn't either.
Which is what Agnostic Atheism is.
I agree with Link. True Neutral is Neither Atheist nor Believer, you're agnostic. A Baby/child is an Atheist without actual choice, there is no God concept.
As if a baby can make the decision. Lol
If someone doesn't believe in a god, they're an atheist. All people are born atheists because no-one is born believing in gods. Later, some people choose to not believe. They're atheists too because they don't believe in gods either.
that's your belief
No, West, that's not a belief, otherwise we would all believe in the same God at birth with no exceptions.
You seem to stop caring when you disagree with something, saying "that's just your belief" doesn't automatically make it wrong you know.
Atheism is defined as disbelief or lack of belief in god(s). Now in addition to that we have anti-theism, which are atheists who actively believe the world would be a better place without theism. That is who most believers complain about.
If you think a baby consiously chooses to be an atheist in that they are aware there is a choice as uou and i know then i say that is what you believe to be true. Makes me
Laugh how you need to be right instead of acknowledging a persons point
I find it amusing that people keep insisting that babies don't beliece in God. I've known God since before I was born. A lack of perception only proves that one is either blind, or an empty vessel.
Technically all children do start out as atheists from birth, God beliefs are pressed onto people later. This is why they correspond so strongly to the culture and religious climate where you were born rather than being universally the same.
Really interesting. Atheist = browbeaten into a way. Believer = enticed. "you must!" = rebellion. I love = enticement. I think we say "don't believe", that must be taught also.
West, you are the only person to have asserted that babies are making an active choice to be atheist, due to whatever misconception you have about what atheists really are.
Are you even reading what's being said?
Ronnie, you are a miracle. remembering the concept of God the first second you saw the light.
correction. before you saw the light you saw the light.
Peter, I also remembered I was hungry.
"If you think a baby consiously chooses to be an atheist" .... No-one is saying they choose. Atheism is the lack of a belief in gods. Babies are not born believing in gods, therefore they lack belief, therefore they're atheists. It's not a choice.
How utterly ridiculous!
All early prehistoric peoples were once babies and they formulated theories about God before any books were written etc. Think about it.
If babies right out of the whomb believe in a God/Gods then I guess other animals believe in God too.
"All early prehistoric peoples were once babies and they formulated theories about God" - While they were babies? Those are some intelligent babies!
That something startling Virginia, the aspect need to be dealt in detail as how an organized religion does not make any sense?
the question is about inspiration. Does attacking religion inspire many atheists? It certainly seems to on the net.
Sorry to intrude! A good religion is very demanding. Specially Christianity. The Congregation founded by Jesus Himself. Another word for Christianity is Suffering. But there is no obligation to it. It's your choice.
People didn't develop and evolve to the highest order of earthly life just to "suffer" at the will of an E.T. Mankind has been subjugated by religion and it has stunted our psychological and social growth. If we must have religion make it Humanism.
What exactly is preventing the people that think they know the truth from being lied to and misled as well?
The pursuit of truth itself. What are you up to, Link? How much truth do you have to share with us?
So the pursuit of truth makes you immune from being lied to and misled?
Does that apply to anyone, or just to those that agree?
No. I am just as lied to and misled as everyone else.
For instance, I am now having a conversation with some sort of abstract object named Link10103
Joshua, Link, let us settle down on one issue, let us discuss what is the right way of knowing the truth, is it possible by own self or do we need an external agency to know what the truth is?
In my humble opinion, Muhammad, there are as many ways of knowing truth as there are observers of truth. The truth that I know is the truth that I have explored. What is absolutely true is that all that exists is now. Right now.
Joshua, Does that truth put you always in a state of satisfaction?
Many seem to gain a weird inspiration from attacking religion. No one can honestly deny this.
so true Joshua. so many atheists have an impression of what they think God is, as compared to what some believers believes God to be
I think Yoleen the solution lies in another form of traits, that everyone should believe what his / her inner conscious direct. The path to be followed should be void of ambiguities and confusions, it has to inculcate a sense of satisfaction.
" ...that everyone should believe what his / her inner conscious direct."
With respect Muhammed, your words here...they do not seem to equate with your admonitions, desiring that others accept your version of God.
Absolutely not Alan, there is no question of any version, what inner conscience reveals restrict to that person, no one is entitled to coerce for that matter, its all about an individual's freedom to follow the conscience.
Alan it seems like you are saying it is a bad thing that one desires others to accept their version of God. What an interesting notion. Why would that be bad? Especially in a case like Muhammad where he does it without condemnation of others.
Eric, his entire conversation here presumes his superior knowledge of "truth." We have seen Christians just as presumptive. He questions why we are atheist. His reasoning is one of the reasons. He wants you and me converted.
Actually, I believe Muhammad's motives are sincere. Most people have an innate sense of right and wrong, and desire to do what's right. That must be where the concept of God comes from. We err when we force that concept into a mold and manipulate.
have you ever noticed how many atheists get really inspired by a sort of anti religious fervour?
Some become enraged due to bad experiences. As a result, they launch an anti-Christian crusade. I am not angry, because I'm aware the leaders in my church taught me the best they knew how. There's a lot of good in Christianity, but it's not perfect.
Eliza! why you think Jesus endured so much sufferings and died on the cross.He did it for us sinners as a role model. He knows what you're going through. Here again, why stop something which is good for your sole?
Eliza, your detachment reveals your intense attachment, if it is so then why don't you continue your search for the truth instead of abandoning the process of searching and abiding by the truth?
Cazzell you have added an important point to our discussion, that is lack of scientific approach of religion, what does it infer then? Religion should encompass scientific and evolutionary facts or it should get merged in science?
Religious text could incorporate some scientific ideas, but many people would be unhappy at the idea of it. However scientific law was not known when these texts were written.
we see a lot of inspiration by atheists when it comes to attacking religion don't you think? It's very prevalent all over the net.
In the discussion of scientific and Divine interpretations, is it necessary to demarcate the idea of being humans & Divine? As humans are with limitation of senses, how come their findings can challenge the all encompassing Divine, just a thought
What if He is revealed to you. What then? My Dad should have died from cancer and he did not with no medical explanation whatsoever. That does not make me any different or anymore special than another. That was as real as ever.
Yash you mean to say if miracle doesn't happen a person becomes atheist, it means those who are sticking to their religions are doing so because they have seen the miracles, isn't it?
No no, not all religious people have seen miracles that would be absurd. But yes, if a person, some person, is hoping for some miracle and if it doesn't happen then he/she tends to blame god. Dont you feel so?
More than miracle I think Yash, comfort of the heart matters a lot as it pertains to every day of life.
Interesting. Today my young son and I examined some bugs in nature. We enjoy the science and classify insects and look at defenses and impact. But we look for and find the miracle in them. Miracles are everyday - just look.
Muhammad - comfort of the heart, certainly yes
But what Eric says is true as well :)
We just need a context to put everything in place I think!
Yash, If it is that context, it need to be constant and a source of inspiration.
But this about what really inspires them. There is only one answer: many of them get really inspired about attacking religion with stereotypes
A lot of people on these forums are also digital stereotypes. Some see less or no attack, others will get a lot of flack you'll often see why just from reading what and how they write.
Not always though. For a year and a half I have had MS and I can honestly say that all it has done is shown me more and more that I am blessed. I just become more humbled.
I wish that were not the case but it is probably true. I just cannot imagine choosing something so important because of other people. But I guess many people live that way.
does this inspire many atheists to take up a cross for anti religious sentiments? Many seem truly inspired in this cause
Jerry, if the attitude of other believers is a cause for the disbelief then what are the chances of accepting the positive attitudes of the believers?
So...scientists know but shun the truth from everyone.
Yet the truth is visible and available to all.
So the scientists are idiots then?
Pretty much most of them are. Dr. John Hagelin and Dr. David Hawking can explain more on how we have the evidence for the existence of an intelligent designer.
Dr. John Hagelin is a Quantum Physicist by the way.
I always find it funny when someone clings to the FEW scientists who agree with the concept of a god, while ignoring the majority who disagree with the concept. And by plain site do you mean all the ppl dying,kids starving, countries being wiped out?
But the majority of science knows that something is out there. They just choose to protect their credentials and reputation. This is why many Atheists Scientists are coming out denouncing Atheism.
Once a majority agreed with slavery. Once a majority supported the war in Iraq. MVC's kill over 40,000 annually in the U.S., but the majority still drive automobiles. Golly Gee, just hit me in the head with a hammer! Go with the majority? No thanks!
That is exactly why America is NOT a democracy, Ronnie. America is a republic. And science DOES prove the existence of God. You have to get into quantum mechanics to discover that and who God really is.
Lack of knowledge is caertainly a cause but the real inspiration comes from attacking religion in a crusader manner. This is all over hp and the net.
Scientific theories are at odds with religion. There is no evidence supporting the existence of a god. Unless you have some groundbreaking new evidence, then you have nothing to support your assertions, thereby making them mere whimsical conjecture.
try reading about Kurt Godels God Theorem. Godel was Einsteins persinally anointed successor. This is denied only by atheists.
This is a conspiracy statement without proof.
I could also say :
Scientist knows of the existence of a country ruled by elves on the North Pole but choose to keep it a secret from the masses being afraid for their reputation!!!
They would have to disregard all history and archaeology including the Tel Dan Inscription, The Pilate Stone, Writings of Tacitus ( a Non Christian ), not to mention all of the prophesy in the Bible. How exactly does one do that?
gohain, in both the cases the intellect of a person seems to be under influence. if it is true, then how come he remain an atheist, why not other thoughts inspire him to go for that?
Once again you would have to have a total disregard for both history and archaeology.
You can see the wind with the correct apparatus. You can determine it's made primarily from oxygen and nitrogen (air). You can determine how the sun causes it. You can see its effects on the trees. A better analogy for God would be unicorns/fairies.
Why do believers keep implying that it is PEOPLE'S treatment that has caused someone to become an atheist. that's just plain evading the real answer...which are the beliefs themselves...not the people! We dont believe in your God because it is absurd
Yes but what really inspires most atheists is carrying on a crusade against religion. This crusade relies on gross negativity and stereotyping.
LOL, okay buddy. You believe my God is absurd, I believe you not believing in God is... absurd. It's all good. Just be careful you don't become like the intolerable, narrow-minded people you claim US to be ;).
Zeron, I was not being intolerant when I said that we believe your God is absurd. I was merely pointing out why we dont believe. And please dont put words in my mouth. I never claimed that all believers were intolerant, narrow minded people.
getitrite, your wording in your first post here could easily be seen as being intolerant. Your framing is what they had a problem with. Also he gave an example of why it is for some people to think that way. Based on this thread, seems to be possible
Just how absurd do you believe it to be. What do you do wit history and archaeology? For instance, the TeLDan Inscription, the Pilate Stone, the codices, Tacitus, not to even mention Bible prophecy. Can ALL of that be coincidence. Jesus was here.
Damian, None of those sources that u mentioned has any real evidence to support the extraordinary claim made by the bible. This is simply a case of wishful thinking. An all powerful being would simply make himself known..explicitly! Humans play games
Tarun, very well said. God gives us opportunity all of the time. Whether we see it or not is entirely up to us.
Thanks Damian, More than agree with you. We pass on the blame easily to God whereas we are the product of our own doings.
Atheism is the original state of mankind, no inspiration needed. Man was eventually "fed" something that never was and, inspired thru fear, ultimately turned it into the cause of everything there is or ever will be...The worlds greatest construct.
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