I will just leave it at that. I am really interested about views on this. Thank you if you would write a note.
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What a very common cents answer. Thank you for sharing it.
When I was still a Christian, I heard in a sermon once that we will be surprised to find out how many people actually make it into heaven, and how many don't. We just can't know (or judge) each other for the reason you just said. Bravo!
Carolyn, I can appreciate what you have said. In my comment, I simply took the words of the Bible and gave that viewpoint. Jesus did say that behavior is a way of determining another person's true faith. But, I am on the outside of Christianity looki
Norine - I will leave this comment. It is so horrible that we can learn from it. But I will delete a follow up from you.
Norine, in my judgement, you are no Christian.
And it leaves U a ranting lunatic in need of a psyche ward in a straight jacket. Noreen, UR rude, hateful, ignorant & satanic. Christ is ashamed of U! U chase people away from Him. STOP UR CRAP! ALL R sick of U!!
As I read the comments, I see two interpretations to the original question. Some interpret it to mean "Is one person ABLE to tell if another person is a Christian. Others interpret it to mean SHOULD one person declare another person's Christian exper
Yes Chris indeed. When I saw this at first I said - oops bad question and then I noticed it worked well to see where an answer was coming from. Both concepts interest me.
There is an objective way of measuring who is a Christian, that being the Bible. It's clear what a Christian should do to follow Jesus' teachings. 10 Commandments are clear too.
Eric, yes, I agree. Sometimes a vague question can give people more freedom to think about the topic.
Like my sermons, this is where I seem to be most effective and that makes me happy because it is my artistic contribution not a dictate. You inspire me. We will hike together before to long.
spirit discerns spirit. A Christian can decide if another person is a Christian for they share the same Spirit; the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues.
Sorry but discernment is a particular gift that not all have. Christian spirit within you does not immediately mean the gift of discernment. Do you have such a gift?
Things are going to be real boring now that Norine is gone. I liked her and I'm not afraid to admit it!
Yeah, totally. I know when I'm bored the first thing I want is for someone to start yelling scripture at me! Always super fun.
I took chemo for many months, it sucked. I was a bit down afterwards. My caretaker sister lit up a joint and said "yeah I am kind of sad you do not need me anymore" I miss chemo and I miss NW. I have fifty emails from her. But I will get over it ;-)
I'm so pissed that she's gone! I can't ever get in touch with her again. We needed her, believe it or not.
Hey Lolita -- email me through HP and I will give you her email address, I am sure she would love to hear from you. Put I will email her first to get permission. It is good for her to have you as a friend.
Of course you can also be a Buddhist, a Zoroastrian, Jewish, a Moslem, a Shintoist, and still have all the so-called qualities and virtues a person of the Christian Faith would deem one of their own as being 'a Christian.'
So Carolyn's answer stands.
Lolita, I wrestled with the idea of losing Norine. Every good story needs tension. But she disrupted every question/thread. Original questions were ignored. This question is now blossoming as a result of her absence.
Loli...NO idea where UR coming from!! If U "needed" her, U must B the most bored person in the world. She was a damned psycho & U know it! Annoying, rude, obtrusive & insulting. Ranting is disgusting & useless. She should B institutionali
Tom your point is correct. Atheists fit right in there. Being good and loving is certainly not owned exclusively by Christians. And the flip side is true also.
I don't know to be honest I feel guilty if I say I'm a Christian. Magnifying glasses and believe me labels are killing me right now. I feel like my interpretation is very different. So I believe in Father Son Holy Spirit. The Mohe-coins still alive.
I can see your point. I am always a bit skeptical of those proclaiming their perfectness in Christ.
Eric, your last statement might be the answer to most of your questions. There is no one who is perfect in Christ. We all fall short and we are human. The point is to do better when we know better. To keep on and do our best. Do all things out oflove
Terrie, I cannot think of a time when I acted less than Christian when I slowed down and acted in a loving fashion. Everything we have discussed here boils us down to -- did we act in love and are we judging in love.? Maybe in that way we my judge.
CMF, I say "YES" because Matthew 8:20-22; 19:29; 28:19-20 & John 3:8 makes Christians, followers of christ per Acts 11:26, to be doing what the gospels say Yeshua the messiah did while he ministered.
Eric if you had read all your comments you would have notice it was s reply to another comment.
But you just read my reply out of context the reason it makes no sense. Or you just read it at a later time when it was mixed with others. Sorry you miss
Yes outward manifestation can not give exact picture of a person what he/she has inside.
You're not alone, Lolita. She was full of passion and belief. I have to agree that she has said some tough things, but she didn't show much guile. I think she had much decency in her own kind of way.
Not everyone interprets things the same way.
We weren't commanded to Listen to Norine, either.
You are not the only one God speaks through; and if you were, I seriously doubt that he would make HP the platform for imperative messages to the world. We will know by spiritual fruits & again - yours are rotten & stink, Norine.
What if no one insisted that their way was the only right way? Could we possibly have a war? Of course we must stand on certain truths and principles, but....
Amie, I have been thinking on your comment. "if you meet the ones...." And it occurred to me that if one is really evaluating their own ideas and setting standards for themselves with any type of prayer then it will be good. Day to day, Hour to hour
Aime, I just keep coming back to your notion of reaching our own standards. I think as "artists - writers" we must set our standard to share our gift - and if we do, that is cool.
Eric, This is my final visit to these forums/questions until Norine Williams is removed from HP permanently. I will not be a part of this ridiculous behavior. HP has a responsibility here. I'm calling on them to do something immediately.
Norine, what's foolish is to think that everyone reaches the same understanding as you do. People are so different, they see things differently depending on experience and circumstance.
Chris...THANK YOU!! You have echoed my own sentiments. No one wants to even join a discussion she tries to dominate! HP should have done something about her LONG ago!! Such lunacy!!
check her profile page
I DID check it last night when I saw that all her blabber was deleted. I figured Eric wouldn't have deleted it. She deserved banning LONG ago! A few more Trolls & we're good!! If she sneaks back, we'll KNOW!
If we use discretion in reporting this kind of behavior, I think HP staff will continue to help us take back these venues. The forums/question areas should be incubators for hub ideas. That is how these rooms relate to HP as a writing/writer's site.
Paula, I confess to doing all that deleting. Wow what a pain. We actually had the conversation before. She would purposefully (her admission) post during my sleeping hours. Can you hear my enormous sigh of relief?
I like Neale Donald Walsch;s reference to a bumper sticker. " God - Save me from your followers." I think a lot of people will understand that one.
I had to report her from my hub a few weeks ago, she simply will not stop harassing me in comments & I got sick of deleting them. I appreciate free speech, but that kind of judgemental & hateful divisiveness is more harmful than we realize.
Most of us DO, in fact realize how BAD ppl like Nor can B.The 2nd prt 2 that is that HP repeatedly advises US to IGNORE these types DELETE THEM EVERY TIME Do NOT engage Do NOT feed trolls! Ever! Eventually they c they're invisible & Go away!
Well I was starting to get the impression that she wasn't ever going to go away - I must have deleted over 30 comments from her & I left some 1st ones up just to have 'her view' up there. Some people have perfected the art of persistence, ha!
Eric, your Hub has a new format I guess. I get orange highlights and am not directed to the place of the last comment. So if someone is addressing me, I'm unable to respond.
Diane it is a mess. There is no way to track comments anymore. I hope they fix that. I wrote a question on it and it seems that it is just broke.
Thats true Aime,people can only decide if another person is Christian according to their standards. But I think we should not do that.
I thought this was a pretty good answer. Neat how we get the righteous, judgmental rantings of Norine to make sure that even Christians are good & judged. Its so harmful & NOT Jesus' main message to embrace that 1 so wholeheartedly.
Phoenix, what a positive point of view that is wholeheartedly supported by scripture. You made me think of the brash curt fellow who is obnoxious. I there I am judging him. But maybe he does good. While I act all nice but do no good. Thank for giving
Thank you Ms Misfit and Mr Dierker and Norine for the responses.
Maybe, we should think on this more. That uplifting all fuzzy feeling deal sounds hokey pokey, but on a selfish level I feel real good encouraging people. Especially children. Maybe it is like a good nutrition plan -as much about what you do not eat
Eric...Did U remove Noreen the nuisance or did HP? We can only hope it was HP and she has been BANNED completely. She is very damaging!
Paula, I did the deleting at first. And HP followed suit. Our friend just said enough is enough. She would have made a great "unsub" for Criminal Minds.
I have noticed there are a few 'hardcore' peeps not here - the others were a couple of Trump's alt-right militants kind of like Norine, ha! We can still have 'disagreeing' discussions without those kind of peeps, tho they keep us on our toes.
Well Mr. Bueno, I would venture and wager, that by your standards you are neither a Christian. I reckon that time you took a double take that was lust and covetness.
How amusing that you wrote this question and then you stand in judgment yourself. I would wager there is more Christianity in my little finger than in your twisted world. And yet, you are correct, I'm not a Christian. Funny that, isn't it?
Clearly you came to disrupt. That is cool. I did not set my standards upon you but rather your standards upon you. But obviously you are here to be contentious. I would like to visit your finger. Vanity is always interesting to see.
Apologies if I shone light upon hypocrisy. I see it as my duty as a human being. Call it disruption if you will. By your deeds shall you be known.
And by the way, how did you come to a conclusion about 'my standards?'
Pretty precise - and apologies if I was harsh; Mr Bueno says
In the case of Donald Trump, yes. He can say he is a Christian until the cows come home but he represents exactly the opposite of what Christianity stands for
Yet mr Bueno, you speak the truth. They go hand in hand.
Eric, I realize this is 3 weeks old; but LOOK... U would never have responded the way U did if U weren't a staunch Trump supporter; & many Christians believe Trump to be as 'unChristian' as Mr. B. Its a mirror of your question. Objectivity?
Let me be clear. I am not a staunch supporter of any politician. (maybe Susan Davis my rep) I go with issues. I really do not care for Trump's appearance. Not hating people does not mean you support them. That narrative hurts our country.
That isn't the way you have spoken about him in the past, and again - you would not have made the 1st response you did if you didn't have such respect for him. I'm not saying respect for Trump is bad - defending him has clouded your objectivity.
Interesting. I have never met a Christian then.
Very interesting. The title is truly an undeserved position in anyone I know. I fear most for those who I do know that simply do not have the capacity to do the work required. God does not give the gift of self discipline to everyone. Reproof?
Discipline is not a gift. We all get it. It's called self control. We should all strive to achieve it. We also have free will. There are people who chose to do what's easy instead of doing the work that is hard. We are all different,
Interesting Terrie. Do you think very low IQs, ADD, addictions are moral problems? We do not all get discipline. Do you think epilepsy and diabetes which cause involuntary actions are a lack of control? You judge pretty harsh and black & white he
Churches have split into two based on taking what Paul wrote as dogma - I lived thru a couple of them. Our Youth Pastors were considered to be 'no longer Christians' bcuz they went bankrupt. Truth is, not even God judges & bible isn't Christian.
Just in from Wicki "A Christian is a person who follows or adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ." So no OT &no Pauline? No Acts or Revelation? No Luke???
Wow, Eric I was replying to what you said. I have 2 special needs children and if you read my hubs you know that some things we don't have control over. But we are required to control and self disipline. I know what god says about disabilities, not .
Thank you Terrie for taking care of the "least of these" your commitment is what it means to give your life for another. And so of course I will look at this from your perspective, please clarify about how a child has the self discipline.
We teach children how to self disipline. My children know when they should behave. I never used their disability as an excuse for bad behaviour. They have a limit to their understanding but iam responsible to teach them to reach their full potential.
I think another question/answer is in order. This notion of raising children to be more Christ like combined with the rod or not the rod is fascinating. How much of discipline is obedience and where does obedience go without discipline.
Hi Eric. I think we are getting off topic. I believe in not sparing the rod of discipline. But it has to be tempered with love and understanding. You can have discipline without it being physical. Motto, think pause and breath. Not in moment of anger
There's the meaning, and there's the label. Big difference between them.
When I joined the Navy in 1954 I was asked, "What religion do you belong to? Catholic or Protestant?" (there was no other option) That's an example of the label.
I am not so sure of that Tom. There is this whole school of linguistic philosophy by Ludwig Wittgenstein that suggests all words are labels and must be contextualized. But I do get your point.
I like it KC. We are followers of Christ. We have no reason to boast within ourselves. What we get from the Lord is available to everyone who wants it. True believers should not goad people or gloat. We all have free will to make the choice.
If I was interested in being "kept on my toes," I'd take ballet lessons! Anyone who "misses" the psycho, can volunteer at a Mental institution. It's not passion she had, it's pathology. Be real & stop w/ the lame excuses!
Thank you for your interpretation of what a Christian is.
Do the words 'plank out of your own eye' ring a bell? Judgment without LOVE is not how God judges. There is more to our words & actions beyond the saying & doing of them. God judges intentions as much as anything.
Ruby, it is always good to here from you. Yes he did. To avoid being judgmental seems to be a full time job. I just thought about how funny it would be if I judged myself Non-judgmental. But I can try.
Catherine I came back to look at this comment. It made me think that we can actually relinquish our mind to Love. In the area of judging I think we can. Not judging driving stuff but judging character. My mind has nothing to do judging my wife.
Thank you for the comment Norine. However, I take umbrage with being rebuked. You do not know if I read/study the Word. Enough said.
There was no new 'word' written down for Jesus or his followers to study for centuries; and EVERY spiritual thing was supposedly FINISHED with Jesus' resurrection. God doesn't need 'tests', tricks nor Norine to accomplish his Kingdom.
Thank you, that is a very good "should" answer. What do you think about "could"?
Norine, I don't listen to man. Read what I wrote again. Using scripture to hurt others isn't what god said. That's not our place. But by living by what we believe and say shows others the power god can have in our lives. It's easier to reach people a
Yes u do IF u think GOD "hates" judgment! Too many Scriptures say otherwise!
"Man" (Satan) used imperative sentence" (Matt7:1) to keep MOST "ignorant!" 20+ Scriptures say JUDGE vs the one u guys refer to!
"Hurt?" Oh yeah (Heb4:12)!
Embracing ONE command is unbalanced & a distorted. It is why you get so much heat back, N - not because you are delivering a message that we don't like. God is SOUL, pure positive energy JUST like we are. The HEART is his domain NOT your's.
Apparently you don't believe WORD is GOD SPEAKING(Jn1:1), not *Norine!"
Who "embraced one Scripture" (Matt7:1) re: judgment but TWISTED believers?
I have Scripture (GOD) to back me up not "science!"
Terrie this is a great statement. It made me think that a 14 year old's Christianity is different from a 60 year old's. That is just a natural fact. So variances are absolute. Thomas or Peter? The two Mary. . And ultimately my wife and I. Makes you t
Eric "Faith [increase thereof] comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God!" READ Rm10:14-21! "The just shall live by faith"(Heb10:38)not "science" MF! "From faith to faith"(1:17) depending on"STUDY"which inc us from youth to adult! Not 1's age
EEEEEKK!!! It's the ghost of Noreen still tormenting us!! Help!! Please delete delete delete!! Save Us !! ! ! ! Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh
Yeah, you missed an 'N' conversation, Eric - but maybe leaving her in here lets people know what we're talking about surrounding her ha! I have always had the same response to this rant of hers & she can't answer: what did C's do B4 bible to stud
I have been told by her that NW is no longer with Hubpages so I think it only fair to discuss her in private rather than here.
Eli I think you have spoken truth concerning Norine , true she had some problems here. But she did not ignore people here .There was some postive things about her.
Its better to say the good things about people then to tear them down or throw stones
The bible is not the word of God. The WORD is SPIRIT. The bible did not always exist & it will not always exist. It will turn to dust with the rest of the relics of this civilization someday. God doesn't need a book to speak thru or to his own.
Much food for thought and contemplation Catherine. I do believe people should read your Christians & ex-Christian article. Interesting to note we probably have two sources of judgment - the head and the heart. Perhaps influence is not creation.
Its not full of garbage, KC. I used to be you & Norine arguing harmful dogma. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Eric, influence isn't creation - we can co-create with it tho. We are dual beings & LoA responds to both 'as one'
Catherine, I seem to see God as a father to me. And so I do not command of my children but rather I teach, love and influence. Certainly God commands but He knows darn well we can only try to follow perfectly, therefor He influences after creation.
I think we're talking about 2 different things, I'm not understanding what you're getting at. Jesus used his 'Power of Influence' to touch the people around him. We can sort of 'pull each other up' (or down) with it. We create thru beliefs.
By your comment I think you do understand me. God touches my heart. I view it kindly and as a great favor. We both are clearly influenced by God.
Yes all R touched by 'God' bcuz it is the part of us that lives & breathes, the most natural part of our existence. Its profound, but it is supposed to be 'normal' to us. We've been told its exclusive. We're direct offspring in physical bodies.
misfit Chick, I love your comment, and it is so true.
I really like this thread of discussion. If we all love to some degree and God is love, then He is in all of us. Yes I like "co-created". That which is of God is alpha and omega. It could have no beginning just like God. We are all gods??
Eli people have some kind a way lost what value of this spiritual treasure .
To just recap. Its more then money, Diamons , gold,
Its a desire that many already feel when they get up each morning .
' Living' is not control or granted by man .
If that was to me I don't quite grasp your meaning.
Yes, we are 'gods in the flesh' as Jesus was. "Is it not written in your law I said YOU are gods?" More details in my spotlight hub. We're just like him & that was the thing Roman leaders either didn't understand or felt a need to cover up.
Catherine I see that you have left several comments but I cannot find them. Please excuse me.
That seems so cut and dried that there would be no question. Probably a Billion more people on earth than when Saul went around killing disciples. But for sure the same genocidal type maniac. Then Paul or Saul are as bad and un-Christian as Hitler?
Hitler was NOT a christian. "The Nazi party endorsed what it termed "Positive Christianity" which removed the religion of its Jewish origins, set up Hitler as a messiah, and did not require the belief in the divinity of Christ.
If you both agree that he was not a Christian based on his actions, then we can judge Christians based solely on their actions and not on their thoughts.
Can you say less about Saul?
Eric, why do you refer to Saul. He didn't know God when he did horrendous things to gods people and when he learned how serious and wrong what he did was he changed his ways and became a believer and turn his way to good. Even changed his name, Paul.
Terrie, does you sin of yesterday or even today define what you are today? Judas did real bad, but without it, we have no passion, cruicifixion and resurrection. Did he repent before death? Do we define Paul by Saul? Bad today does not define us.
Eric, I don't know as much about Saul as I do about Hitler. The records on Saul are vague. The records about Hitler are clear. Either way, the actions of a person say a lot about that person.
Oh no doubt friend. I just see the extremes as good reflections of the more normal. We really see this about Trump. I think we have it so well that we make monsters that we can say are not Christian. Truly making someone out to be a devil??
Thanks, Eric. Do you agree that we can judge someone as being either a Christian or not based only on their actions?
No way. My eldest brother is a devout antagonistic anti Christian atheist. But he worships nature. This guy acts so much like an ideal Christian it is amazing. A better man not to be found. Same with those Tibetan folks and Native Americans.
I live in Seattle, CRAMMED with people like Eric's brother - and yeah, they 'act' notoriously Christian & can be as judgmental. Just TRY to throw a sodacan away instead of recycling it in front of one, LoL! Hitler STARTED OUT Christian.
Yes, and I think he died one also. Sanity and Morality are not guaranteed under Christ. Nor are gravity of depravity or foulness of thought. Christian simply does not mean good. It means grace. We have learned that here. Actions do not dictate.
Then Eric, how can we say that Hitler was not a Christian? We couldn't see into his thoughts.
Scott, could God have made him one without our permission?
Eric, the only way your sin doesn't define us is if it's in the past. Paul never went back to his old ways, judas was a deceiver, he was a wolf in sheeps clothing. Plotting against Jesus, took money to help trap him. There is a difference between the
Terrie I really do get where you are coming from. But I worry that we think we earn "Christianess". It seems fairly clear that we are not to decide but God is. God could have made a monster a Christian on his death bed.
Hi Eric. I guess we see it differently and that's ok. I don't believe we earn it. It's a way we choose to be. That's were free will comes in. The word of god gives guide lines. It's up to us to follow or not. No God doesn't make monsters humans do.
Terrie, hi. Eric could have meant an ill-intentioned person, turning over a new leaf through Grace. Happens all the time, even on death row.
There is a dogmatic Catholic idea of the ordinary - which we must do and the extra-ordinary, what God can do. God can make a horrible man a Christian. So our judgment is less than God's but something to strive for.
I would like to add that Christianity is a great moral lifestyle but being a Christian is having a relationship with Christ. Christ in us and we in Christ. Everyone can be a Christ but not everyone has a personal relationship with Christ
That is correct. Choosing to follow a religion is a choice 'christ consciousness' in each of us makes to cause a certain type of soul expansion. It isn't necessarily a 'spiritual' lesson we get cuz we're already OLD spirit-beings JUST like Jesus.
There's that fruit verse I keep taking about for you, Norine. What do your 'fruits' bear in places like this? Did Jesus make peeps fishers of men or JUDGES of them? You are judged every time you judge: that's Y U get REBUKES in return.
Kathleen what two great verses. There seems to be three fruits. Reverence to God. Giving love to another. And getting something of value done. Boy, if I hit all three at once I am a super star! Thank you for your clarity.
Kathleen the way you state this is kind of like a freezing cold glass of water to the face. It is the contrast that bolts us awake. 40 years ago I told a gal that her fruit was looking really good today. We got married after she slapped me. I feel mo
Hi Nicole, it is good to hear from you. It just hit me; Do I go to church because I am Christian? I will have to think about what you said here. Maybe I go to become Christian? I wonder if that makes sense.
Also Diane did Judas know the scolls ?
Judas also walk with the Sovereign Son in preaching and feeding and healing people.
Its more than what you know !
its about maintaining tests and trials of our own moral integrity .Satan knows what written
This is an insightful answer. Most 'spiritual' Christians I have known are a little irreverent about going to church & often do it for their families. I keep saying, religions & churches R a way to Christ - but, they are not 'the way'.
NC, Religions are cults [prevents some personalities from developing, allows others to grow uninhibited] Spirituality is examining the 360 degrees outer and having gone from top through the bottom two comprehend what the subject means.
Awesom John succinct and right on.
So John I am working on a notion that this Christian (know me by my fruits) issue is stand up right. Maybe not our obvious actions but our act of some sort of contrition. Always trying to engage in doing better.
I imagine you know what that walk is. That kind of is implied in the question. Are you able to judge another man's walk?
That is really cool. You sure are good with the shorthand. I like it. And your all caps are appropriate. And your message is very well put. I am not overly concerned with the half painful wit folks use. Your answer reflects Christian values I think.
As you say this is clear "all men will know you follow Him if you love one another." So the rest is Pauline Doctrine, and the degree of love is left to opinion of man. Of course heaven attendees are up to God.
Eric I used that example to explain just why we needed a ransom by the Heavenly Father to restore what Adam and Eve lost for us .the righ to live without dying from what ever can cause death.We are not in the perfect condition Adam and Eve had first
K&T why did you comment on this answer that way? Makes no sense at all.
K&T often responds from a cell phone and they often don't go under the answer being responded to - so they don't make sense. Its weird.
Well made point.
Could it be, and as I am not a Christian, perhaps I am not best placed to comment, that the historic Jesus acted from the heart and not the head, thus defining his teaching purely in words misses the point entirely?
I think that is a very valid point to add to this. There is the notion that what we say is the overflow of the heart. We could add act to that concept. Good stuff.
From the heart the mouth speaks Lk 6:45 - thoughts R inspired from soul, processed thru brain, then blurted out. If you value non-judgment, your thoughts don't even go there. If U believe God commands it, they do. Its a choice.
Our cognitive ability to direct our thoughts. And yet I think we have to realize that a lifetime of practice cannot be reversed simply by changing thoughts. But maybe epiphany transformation can alter our judgment structure. Can we stop judging?
I've been asking myself that, bcuz its such a double-whammy: you can be a judgemental person; or you can be a person who judges judgemental people for being the way they are - as harshly as they judge others. Neither helps & both draws us in...
Alan I understand you very well.
But I must admit a treasure can be stolen because people may focus and listen to the people who are trying to still it from you. Instead of focusing on why they are a stublung block.
Focus on what is the treasure.
Alan your cover much quickly. Good. The starting champion NFL QB is not a hypocrite for missing a pass. Please do not dismiss this. Failure does not make hypocrite - especially 3 a week. You just used bad syntax - does not make you hypocritical.
ADXIII, Well said! One should allow others to describe them as Acts 11:26 did the disciples. I call me "a philosophy" meaning "lover of wisdom" and allow others to call me what they will.
K&T, If one can't explain what they steal they are found
ELi Thank you for that answer. But if some one stesls a precious treasure from you
no you no longer poses it.
Especially if you did not guard it value.
I am sure people dont lay diamonds , $100 dollar bills publicly visable for stealing.
Wisdom is a treasure the wise desire exposed, our only treasure we want shared, so without experience enough to explain it a sharers is revealed as a "philosopher" or "sharer of wisdom they do not understand" and thief.
Your reasons R the same a lot of peeps look down on Chrisitans, Alan. C's have done a LOT to harm their own reputation from many angles: credibility of their holy book, forcing erroneous beliefs onto others thru laws & redefining hypocrisy, etc.
I get this John in the positive - he is Christian because of his actions. But it is a leap to say because he sins he is not. See my point?
There must be some way of objectively determining what a Christian is (following the teachings in The Bible) or else nobody is a Christian.
John, there are about a dozen or more 12 step programs for quitting one thing or another. The basic membership criterion is; "A desire to stop...." You do not have to stop smoking or be sober you just have a desire. Perhaps Christianity is similar?
Lolita, we will never escape the old pointing fingers at us for not acting like Christians by non-Christians. It is what it is. My favorite is that I am not allowed to get pissed off - not loving. My tongue is real sharp and dual edged. But so be it.
I would hope that this position is held by most. For decisions of man this radical example is useful. What purpose of God could possibly be served by them?
The KKK (& other 'groups' & people that obviously tout darkness while proclaiming the light) are here to demonstrate 'negative' ideals for us to embrace or resist. They provide yet more choices & produce more DESIRES to create opposing id
Spirituality sees Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 concerns everything in existence, this being "the time of redemption" spiritual people should concern ourselves with comprehending & living the truths we see & leave the rest to spirit's purpose for them.
God has changed the hearts of murderous, hatefuly people. Saul/Paul is a glaring example.
A girl at Open Mic said my poetry was hallucinatory, crazy, disturbing ... the Compere intervened and said I was probably one of the sanest guys he knew.
I commend you, as you're probably one of the sanest I know here. Loving thoughts.
Very nice answer. I wonder what it is that really bothers me about "nothing more than a network of neural pathways in a brain." Probably because I think there is more to a soul. Yes indeed we can all judge/decide if we choose to.
Still, an opinion isn't absolute and an opinion may not be someone else's truth of self. We can decide what we think of someone else and that is all. Doesn't matter if it is someone's religion or general moral aptitude. By society's standard or ours.
Yes Shanmarie, it does seem to boil down to that notion of "I can decide for me if you are Christian, but I cannot decide for you or even for another". And that is cool. Another question.
Good point. But I may know more about them by this than by the words out of their mouth. Good to ponder this.
I actually took this to heart Luke. I live outside of a city. You can do what you want in your front yard. Our drought helps us discern a bit about a home. Maybe we can tell something of what they "do" but not much about who they are.
Hmmm Luke....Just a moment pls. This calls 4 a kinds-sorta-maybe-Yes. We can't tell names of the residents by the yard, but we can tell if: they have kids, what cars they drive, if they like flowers, own a lawnmower, hate sunlight, wash windows......
I change my appearance and my yards appearance for sure. Fancy tie? No shoes? Roses trimmed? Shoes outside like Asians? I think this short sweet answer is really meaningful, thank you
I like it. Kind of an "everybody knows, nobody knows". Your answer begs the question -- Can we even decide if we are Christian or not.
I think the idea of who is and who is not a Christian is very personal. There are those who see it the same way, band together and form churches. As the Bible teaches us, in the end, God will be the judge.
I suppose that no matter what we cannot keep our mind from judging somewhat. So perhaps we can but should not.
What did they tell you in church Read? What do you consider the teachings of God? I hope I don't sound hostile. I would really like to kow.
Diane for me it is rather simple. That which Jesus taught. It takes discernment and prayer. Trying to makes sense out of the different versions. Applying those teachings to further reading of the Bible and others. The other learnings are extra.
So you restrict your reading to the 4 gospels? Do you believe there is a contradiction between the gospels and the epistles?
GTNT, 1 Pet 2:9 reads "ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;" and being "peculiar" to the world is what christ's teachings are about. Answering you, they contradict and agree with each other.
Nature, I was responding to Eric but thank you for answering. How does that Scripture indicate contradiction. I understand it as we are to be in the world but not of the world. It does not mean be prideful or boastful but humble and compassionate.
Diane, I really do not see your angle hear. Did I say I restrict my readings? And yes I think there will always be contradictions in human story telling, accounts and versions. Everything must be in accord with Jesus's teachings not exactly alike.
No trick Eric. You reference what Jesus taught. There are quotes in the gospels. It made me think of instructions to churches which are not based on quotes but inspiration. In study, I'm used to breaking down a sentence into phrases. No harm mea
No offense taken Diane. Thank you for clarifying. I do not worship Paul or James for that matter. But I heed what they say and find wisdom in it. These men are like Descartes and Aquinous and Luther to me. And I do not exclude others for wisdom.
Eric, I had to look these guys up for specifics. I typed in Luther and guess who popped up? Luther Vandross!
GDNT, what are some details showing what being in the world but not of it is? Mat 19:29, John 3:8, Mat 28:19-20.
Read Isa 45:7 and see if the written concept that "god is good" isn't contradicted.
Joyce you telling the truth , but look at the world now who claim their christain. Its not a pretty picture. People kill in the name , Jesus did not,
People hate in the name Jesus did not
Decieve in the name Jesus did not .
Works validate truth.
Joyce I really like this answer. But it reminds me of the man who cannot read or even afford a book. I think their is a natural place for him, if he knows and loves Jesus, even without knowing all of his teachings. What do you think?
Eli I mean to live in existence is the highest treasure of all in life.
With out it we could not do the things we enjoy. Or experience knowledge.
We are rare to be born.
The treasure that can be stolen is to lose sight to live forever in paradise
We come to believe there is only one true God. A Christian God perhaps. But who would be so presumptuous that our God cannot take other forms. Perhaps a Christian is one who thinks God is limited to their God?
Ha ha. Perhaps. Part of the plan. This whole thing is called a Divine Lila (Leela, to some), meaning a Divine game, a beautiful game. God is just having fun. (Chuckle) The Sage just wants to Love. He does not even seek Happiness.
My son came after me the other day and asked "is playing games bad dad". He had heard an adult use the phrase. My understanding on this is simple. Man plans and God laughs. Man understands and God shakes his head. So we try.
Salvation is available to everyone, regardless of their upbringing. To the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise." The love of God gives everyone an equal opportunity to receive salvation.
I think we should strive for meek and good. Sometimes difficult. I find your thought that we are either born Christian or not very interesting.
Michelle that is a nice sentiment. As long as you restrict it to; and they do no harm to others. What is that one church - Hillsboro?
Christians are imperfect, just as everyone else. The question was about their faith, not actions.
Christians do harm others that is why the Lord wants us to be angry and sin not and to reconcile with our brothers. Christianity can't be discussed without Scripture. All else is personal opinion. That does not count with God.
Was the question about their faith and not their actions and not their faith. That would be your choice in answering. So for you I would suggest that you can for yourself judge. But not for God.
Faith should be lived out. When Christians see others off the path, they should lovingly correct them. If the person doesn't listen, go with 2 or 3.
Diane I completely agree on scripture be the lead here. But that begs the question of whose interpretation - especially when judging another whether just for you or also for others. One thinks stewardship is this and the other that.
God is the judge. Those who don't know the book are not qualified to make the evaluation because they don't know the requirements. Those that do should hold each other accountable. I can't evaluate your MRI because I'm not qualified.
Diane you speak truth when you say God is the judge .but you take away his posistion as judge to say anyone that does not know the bible is not worthy.
Only the Heavenly Father would know know who is accurately doing that.
John it does seem that many think it is their way or the highway. I think it would be sad to stop growing in faith. How can they be absolutely right at 40 and hold exactly the same position at 60?
John that's why GOD told us to "use HIS WORD" to "CORRECT" others (II Tim3:16)! HE didn't say RESPECT!
Another "commandment" (IJn2:3-5) given by GOD that MOST "IGNORE" yet believe they're "in Him!" HA!
Eric Preaching to yourself (re: "40 vs 60")?
Norine you just ruin - no not God ruins - so many hubs and Questions by how you do this. I have not seen one person you have brought to Jesus. Please stop doing this. People see your post and just leave the discussion. Please stop
Eric..1 person she has led 2 Christ? LOL! Quite the contrary! She chases them FROM, appalls people, disgusts & annoys them. She's hater & phony!.She condemns, insults & destroys. She's looney! ALL know it!
Diane apeaks truth of what happened . I can share this example.
You have a car with a battery and alternator. If alternator breaks
The car will soley rely on its battery power. And the battery life limited in keeping the car running.
Thank you. You have several good points. For some reason your answer made me think of "group think". It does seem to be we really most often think "he does not act like WE think he should". I think the love speak by Christ is a new commandment.
Well said! I have 2 links in my spotlight hub: 1 by Kabbalist leaders correcting Jew/Christian misconceptions & 1 that explains how Kabbalah was probably 'the original Jewish law' Jesus was talking about fulfilling.
Do tell more Catherine. I will watch and comment after you so you can do a few comments in a row -- Very interesting. Your knowledge is awesome.
I'm listening too, Catherine. Very interesting.
Its a puzzle & dang long story... What if Jesus came to show peeps we were just like him 'gods in the flesh' to free their minds from the 'unworthy' pagan beliefs they were familiar with? Hardly any C-state-religious 'beliefs' were NEW.
And what if there was ANOTHER Jewish 'law' (Kabbalah) that originated from the same person (Moses) containing the same 'scriptures' & had a non-pagan message that was unknown to Roman or Church leaders at the time to include or apply it?
Alright this seems like an interview hub - I interview you but argue to draw out this completely whacko approach LoL. Keep going
Hopefully curiousity is peaked enough to look into: Kabbalah talks about the Kingdom of God within as Jesus claimed & C portrays J as a pagan god whose blood needed to 'purify' us. Peeps didn't know they were WHOLE the way they were...
It's interesting how everyone has an opinion. Prov. 14;12 "There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death." Everybody can't be right.
Diane I respect your feeling and conviction on this matter. I have a little trouble accepting one verse to cover a notion without context. Sentient minds are not rubber stamps.
I've given quite a few verses. The point is that you don't take a geography test without studying geography. When you pick a doctor, you want a medical doctor not a philosopher. The Bible is the book for Christians. It should be studied.
Thank you friend we learn much from you.
I think there is much to this approach. "The Imperfect Christian". Let me ask you if a person is not perfect in Christ or what is called "above reproach" can they correctly "instruct/argue/plead - reproach another Christian?
Most assuredly correct we cannot decide "for" another. That is clearly their purview. But even if a person were to only take the four gospels as word there would be some rough guide so it is not really a "I worship the moon so I am Christian freefall
Everyone makes a decision. You could start a cult. N attempt 2 get legitimacy, they CALL it Christianity. They wd b added to Cult List w/ others searchable on Christian sites.
Eric I should bring this to your attention Augustine as a church father in Catholic believe in baptizing babies if not he believed the stain of sin damn them.
Please explain .
This crossover with Catholicism is really interesting. So much is just accepted by Protestants that is Catholic and not scripture. In fact, for sure what books are in the Bible.Thanks for you very cool comment.
Well if a baseball player is only hitting 333 is he still a baseball player? Your point seems straight forward but suggests a certain perfection required. But of course you are right in general.
It seems quite clear that if we see someone without any love then probably not. Love is not just an action it is a being. Not just a feeling but something more.
You raise a very important issue here. Your position is clear. But what about the flip side? I got my wife and children and buddies to keep me in check. They step up and speak up if they see error. We may not agree but we have the talk - that is good
Dr Mansoor Memon, your comment: 'who cares if someone says you are Christian or not, it's between you and your Lord. This is so true, it is a personal relationship
This flies in the face of the light analogy. Our light shining is supposed to attract others if we do not give a damn about what others think, we do not love them.
yes sir i do agree with your point of flip side, but in that situation there should not be hot discussion . one can only express his her love and contentment of belief but must not impose beliefs.i believe family be kept free to choose faith they fit
We agree on not imposing. And I think we agree as loving people we should care what others think and feel. But not to the extent in controls us. Maybe influences us? We adapt to be loving but not to be controlled?
I missed this earlier. As the Methodists say "even a Baptist could be a Christian" (yes that is a joke because Baptists are far more strict)
I think your overall message is very good and sound. Thank you
Yes, God is the ultimate answer. \We need to surrender to Him. Why judge our fellow beings?
Interesting. You come at it from the anti-judgment point of view. Do you think deciding for your self and judgement are the same?
When you decide for yourself, you are making a judgement call. Call it deciding for yourself if you will, but in Gods view, you are judging that person.
You do realize you just judged me for deciding for myself if my friend is Christian. And at the same time saying it is wrong to judge. Yet declaring only God can judge?
MAH, Lk 17:21 is 1 of many places saying god is in us and by the New Birth do we realize it, not before. Reborn man with testimony of conception, gestation, trivial, birth and amount of growth has discerning ability to determine who is and isn't.
The 'new birth' as U keep describing it is not how it has been interpreted by U & so many people - it is simply talking about FINALLY becoming aware & REALIZING that we R perfect exactly the way we are - how God made & intended & JUST
I have gone the metamorphosis, see my profile, reversing the 1 the Adam & Eve story represents (see http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Revelation... Romans 1:20 say it follows the natural birth and recognized as a metamorphosi
Catherine I kind of go with that. Assume a baby dying is just horrible to us. Well who gave us the right to assume that. For sure it seems horrible to us -- but???
Pretty straight forward.
My worry along these lines is that of why one appears not Christian. I assume that for a lot of reasons one does not act Christian. The notion of an addict that just cannot help themselves. What of Paul's "thorn"?
I think that that is a very valid point. If we see "Christian" as belonging to a religion then we have serious problems in identity. It seems it must be a personal chosen intent to follow the teachings not of a church but of Christ himself.
Great Steven! That really resonates. A fun one: My brother read about treating other as you would like -- he bought my mom a baseball glove for mother's day. Perhaps being literal is not so good '-)
Eli we did not create the idea of our own existing. And as it is known in science it takes 1 in 4 trillion to beat the others possibily.
That certainly makes each person a rare treasure.
And a treasure to keep living is the beauty of its value.
It is good you asked this question. Christianity is a religion based on the notion that Christ was/is God. Everything else about Christianity varies from one group to another. A Christian is not necessarily one who follows the religion.
Bunny, you make the point! The Bible tells the prophecy of why, fulfillment, and future things. W/o the Bible there is no Christianity. How can people talk about what they do not know.
Diane, who was Paul without a Bible? Straighrforward. Was Paul a Christian without a Bible?
Paul wrote half of the New Testament.
We know that is correct and that he was a Christian. Without a Bible. Joe cannot do the same? Just back off your position a little bit. Or you look foolish. Normally we need a Bible. Extraordinary we do not.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
Diane, you do know that this is written before the Bible as a letter to uplift those carrying on without a Bible. The Bible contains what we now call Gospel. In fact Paul was writing the Bible -- how could he of followed it?
E., I don't get your point. The passage has general application for believers to defend the Hope that lies within us at all times. I hope this is discussion and not argument.
Diane - this is what started the conversation " W/o the Bible there is no Christianity." Your words. Properly it is, there can be no bible without Christianity.
I agree with that because God inspired these men to record their accounts - none conflicting with each other. It all stemmed from God's plan for Jesus to come became the sacrifice for our sins. He planned it all. It was recorded.
This is just painful Diane. Of course the 4 Gospels contradict. They are from different viewpoints. Anyone schooled knows that exactly the same account by 2 or more is a lie. It simply cannot happen. 2 witnesses 2 different stories. End of story.
Christianity is a conscious decision to accept God's gift of eternal through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ. At that point you are permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit who guides you and convicts you have right and wrong.
Diane you are awesome I really appreciate the effort you make to clarify your position with God. It is easy to get mad and run away. Long-suffering is a love. I always learn from you. Your statement is clear and correct.
Acts 11:19-26's suggests Christians are "wandering messengers in the likeness of he who is called Christ." In the gospels his instructions to all who will become Christian were much the same as John 31-8, Mat. 19:29 & 28:19-20, being but three.
Do you think those standards are universal or values we each have?
That's why the Bible is critical. Many "sects" are considered cults. Your answer is a non-Christian answer. I don't mean it in a bad way. It is difficult, if not impossible, to critique what you don't know. Bible is authority of Christians.
That just a matter of semantics Ms. Trotter. Sect: a body of persons adhering to a particular religious faith; a religious denomination. You could substitute denomination for sect if you are more comfortable with it.
Dianetrotter, Cult is the base of cultivate. Cultivating prohibits some plants from growing while allowing the desired to grow uninhibited. Civilization and all of its parts are cultures and, thereby, cults. Did you cultivate your children, if any?
This is the darned Yoga debate. This notion that creeps into Christian lives that suggests some intellectual pursuits are bad. It is dark ages stuff. Read what is written by the authors and see if it has helpful qualities. Sistine Chapel OK? Newton?
Mark, I agree people use words they choose. It doesn't matter what you call Christians. The BIble is the authority. It doesn't help to discuss Biblical points because you don't believe it. It is by grace, through faith, that believers are saved.
Mark and Diane - this to me, (I know I need a life) is exciting. But we must always counsel to be weary of trading convictions for semantics. We know what Joe means by cults. Charismatic rather than spiritual, is yuckie.
I didn't know charismatics were considered a cult. Those who do not believe in the virgin birth, death and resurrection of Jesus and say they are Christians are a cult. Cults do not believe the Bible.
Oh for sure Diane. To me a cult would be a group that followed a leader and not Christ and the Bible. Pastor says "jump" all jump. Very developing/illiterate country style. Used to be all masses in Latin. Go Luther.
Elijah, You isolated 1 usage. http://www.morewords.com/contains/cult/ Cult like Jim Jones signs: exclusive, secretive, authoritarian
GDNT, Adam & Eve began the cult of civilization by implementing "good you do, evil you don't" allowing some attributes in man to grow uninhibited while others are prevented from growing means when one say Do & Don't to others it's cultivating
Nature, God gave them boundaries for their benefit. Good parents do that. He told them to NOT eat of the tree. Eve's curiosity and desire for knowledge led her to eat from the tree. She ate/Adam too. The 1st sin was punished. Running out of spa
GDNT, they weren't given boundaries, eating the knowledge of good and evil (see http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Understand... put boundaries upon them so they were not able to comprehend all things.
Man [mind able to comprehend all things] in the likeness of god, once we overcome judging and become led of god are revealed differences judging man are unable to recognize, thus, reborn man should be able to determine when another is reborn.
We R 'the likeness' of God but unique & diverse bcuz God LOVES diversity. We will never all think alike cuz if we did, WE would have all the power instead of God. And that would probably be a bad thing, LoL! Its the reason for Tower of Babel
Its strange how C's always try to distinguish themselves from each other - ie. they aren't 'real' Christians (or disciple of C) but *I* am. When I lost my religion, they insisted I wasn't saved to begin with. The answer determines judgement.
Misfit Chick- what part of Matthew 28:19 do you not understand.
Kingdom Come. What part of that verse do you understand it to mean as I do? You are not the kingdom come to me. Please respect others and fill that heart with a desire to share and not judge and demand.
Agreed, Disciples of Christ is a better way to explain "followers of Christ." It shouldn't be based on a religion, but having a true relationship with Christ through spirituality.
This is a really nice statement. I like it.
Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Dasia do you ever look at a new acquaintance and judge if they are "safe" or too scary strange?
DT, Acts 11:19-26 suggests Christian means "In Christ's Likeness" reading how christ lived says they Are or Not living as a wondering nomad, alone, forsook all the world offered and none judgmental, if we aren't like that we're not Christ's like.
No I do not. In my opinion the way a person looks does not always say if I should be afraid of them or not. They way they carry themselves respond to situations tells you if they are someone you should watch out for while around them.
Interesting complete faith in the Pauline doctrine. You go even further that our Catechism. Some of us concentrate more on words of Jesus rather than a man who never walked with him. Yes I am pulling your chain a bit. But please explain.
Paul was chosen by The Lord Jesus as a chosen vessel to take the Gospel to the gentiles; Acts 9: 15, 16. Read John 17: 20.; The apostle Paul: read beginning of Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus; 2 Peter 3:14-16. 2 Corinthians 13:10, Romans 16: 25.
OK thank you for that bit that nobody follow without a good 2 hours. We kind of play nice here -- not bury in scripture.
Eric, how can you have a discussion on Christianity without the Bible. That's what Christians study. That's what learned pastors teach from.
Dianne I have never heard a preacher or been in a bible study where 4 or more verses come out in a single paragraph. It is not helpful to an open discussion. It stymies it. And just throwing it out without explanation is strange.
We have 250 characters here. Not enough for in depth explanation. However, without the Bible, there is no Christianity.
Correct Dianne - 250 so maybe one verse.
Now Dianne you know there can be Christianity without the Bible. No Christians for 325 years? MMLJ not Christian? Paul? Christening? By God's choice? Corinthians? You mean something else - true?
Dianne is right; without scripture there is no divine standard of authority, as the sum of God's inspired word word is Truth! If no written Divine Standard there is just confusion, chaos and disorder!
Well Richard I like your assertiveness but answer the questions I posed. 300 years without a Bible yet there were clearly Christians. And all the other examples. Address that please and feel free to ask me to delete your answer so you may write new.
The Bible was compiled from written manuscripts of people God used. http://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/the-study-of... writers were inspired by God.
But Diane address the 1st 300 years without it -- clearly they were Christians - some at least that believed without a Bible. Maybe 100.00 souls believing without a Bible. What nonsense are you suggesting.
Hi Eric. I think you might be missing and important point. The bible wasn't written in a room all at same time. It was written over time. The Jews had rules and laws. By birth they were gods chosen. After that it changed. everyone could find god.
E, New T believers had the witness of live disciples who traveled, proclaiming word of God, establishing churches. Many saw Jesus, many were healed, etc. That was not history but current events. We have more responsibility because we have the hist
Come on Diane just admit that for 300 years Christians had no Bible. So Christianity devised the Bible not the Bible devised Christianity. Then we can move on. I preached and preach matters that come from the Bible. Read my sermons. I do not cite.
Eric, the disciples were the walking testament. 1 Cor 1:25 "For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." I have studied God's Word with excellent theologians (DTS trained) since 1978.
So you agree that for 300 years it was not the Bible but service of the Lord through handed down testimony? You know how that works. I will leave this issue at a nice place and thank you for your position I learned a great deal, thank you.
Paul's manuscripts were written. Notice the salutation at the beginning of each one. They were not in a book. They were letters read to the churches.
Right on Diane and they we pre-Bible as incorporated by Nicea as part of the Bible created by men. Not the word but the bible. My and my Family's relationship with Jesus our God is not reliant on scripture, We have been brought to Jesus through life.
Great Eric! What does it mean to be brought to Him through life?
Diane - true story. I made a deal with my Buddhist bride. We would go to temple and to church. In the temples she knew no one. In the church she had Vietnamese friends. No study no learning. I was sick in hospital. While walking there Christ adopted.
Interesting cultural salad! :) So how did that affect or lead you to Christianity?
Eric, where is your evidence that there was no scriptures for God's people for 300 years? The seed to plant and make christians is God's inspired word, Luke 8: 11. The apostles made sure that their letters were available after their departure!
Diane I was already an LEM Episcopal. She caught God without the Bible.
Richard do not cite Luke 8: 11 for your position it is in error obviously. The Sower of Seed - Really? I have no tolerance for verse slingers who clearly do not care to be OK.
Richard, our ladies group is doing an indepth study, Live Deeply, on parables. The sower was the first study. It's imp. that the Word be planted in good (fertile) soil to take root and grow. Our hearts are the different soils.
I asked a legitimate question, but you attack me Eric? So unchristian! If there is no word, no sacred scriptures in 300 years there is no seed to be planted, so no fruit can be brought forth. You do not like scripture and have no tolerance for God!
Richard you are smart and this in my question and I did not attack you but your proposition. Do you even realize how far out "thou wouldest fain make me" sounds. That is not even good Shakespeare - although weirder. You missed the stop for goofy .
Eric, I don't know Richard. He is using Scripture to support his position. This is what I have learned to do as a Christian. New Christian are not expected to have the knowledge of the Bible as mature Christians. We are expected to grow thru study
Oh Diane I apologize to Richard and you if I was brusque. I was given the thorn of a quick tongue. I am just learning so much on this question that I cannot thank you enough. So many cool people stepping out of comfort zones to be heard. PBTG
Patience and forgiveness are what we are supposed to do Eric. Thank you for the opportunity. We are all getting opportunities to show Christlike character traits.
Leah, this is a little too much - turn a blind eye approach. No one mentioned label but you. We are talking about "for you". Do you follow people who are not Christian? No. How do you know.
By Acts 11:19-26 Christian isn't religion [belief in god] but the way Christ lived, wandering from place to place spreading his way and understanding of life. His commands were follow him after the "new birth" as Christianity's church preaches.
Good point. there are several religions that use appearances to set them apart. And many just within the Christian community.
I was thinking on this. Casual clothes versus getting dressed up for church. Does in mean anything at all? When I preached I wore coat and tie. But I go to our fancy Basilica in shorts and Hawaiian shirt. Really interesting.
What is your thought with your last paragraph?
I just read this arfapk! Excellent point. Christians and non-Christians will view differently. Viewpoint only matters for professing Christians. Professors should be growing in God's Word.
not Jewish at all, Christlike
That is what I thought also. But the twist comes in two forms. Decide for whom? And decide by scripture alone or with and in love? We are fortunate here to avoid the "God speaks to me so I know" comments. And I question whether "oneself" really knows
Eric I see that Humans judge what they see and dont know and not see.
When the Father judges what he sees and knows in a perfect inside out in justice.
he knows what we know and decline to make changes , but many say I am a christain.He will disown
Thank you friends, I came back to think on these good thoughts as directed by Paul who is a hero of mine. - Leave Marvels to others. This opening of a window into our souls to accept others and God in our way as God designed, wonderful to be a child.
Rich thank you for that very insightful answer. This morning I had a strange thought as our small family was getting ready for the day with banter and catching up. Is my wife a Christian? Ans: I just know that she is.
Bergen-Belson is little known, why do you take Ann Frank backwards. I appreciate anonymous as far as asking you not to post here again. I hope you get my request. Nobody has the name Frank Ann. And moving it around I feel is slander.
Eric-I truly apologize for any offense you may have had to my name. I believe "Annelies Frank" was an amazing historical icon and in no way intended to slander the name, copy, mimic or otherwise-to be "Frank"-perhaps I will add a change to my name
No, Frank Ann it is my issue not yours. I get posting anonymously except when it comes to Christian matters. I am sure you get that. So it was my sensibilities and not wrong of you at all please accept my apologies.
Eric, I completely understand! I am new to this Hubpage concept as well and appreciate your strong stand on the matter-had you not spoken out I may not have realized the potential impact of my chosen pen name. Thank you.
Please share with us via your profile who you are so we can get to know you.
Alan I understand also your feeling about the claimed titl. christains not all confessing are and are disowned scriptural by Jesus himself.
But its just a big destraction to detour humans away from the opportunity to learn and know the truth.
Oh there is some balderdash going on. "people" "sheeple" "don't grasp what our mighty souls and intellect grasp". I find that a bit elitist tawdry. Perhaps as a child the one with the least understanding is the closest to God and more Christian. ???
That is a very interesting viewpoint for this question. Thank you
That is an interesting point... How many people have converted from one religion into another (not just Christianity), and sometimes more than once? Are they easily manipulated or are they spiritual explorers?
Interesting. I suppose that is basically the meaning of "can".
Eric, where is your evidence that Christians spent 300 years with out the scriptures? The Lord maintained His church and the seed to plant the church and produce christians is God's Word, Luke 8: 11. The scriptures have always been available!
Go away Richard. Your misquoting and ridiculous reference is not appreciated by folks trying to lead a Christian life or learn about it. You quote the word and the law wrongfully. Sadducee.
Paul this is a really nice response. It reflects your peaceful good nature. I think through my children that notion of a bad act versus a bad person has been ingrained in me. We must judge actions and not people.
Humans are running on their own power like a battery due to being severed of the life line to keep us eternally living from our Heavenly Father.Adam and Eve severed our life line. But provsions were paid to repair and return it to us to keep living.
U & I went round on this, K&T. The 'big lie' is that we have been severed - a HARMFUL pagan ideal - when we have not - a 'christ' ideal. J didn't die to save souls 4 God, he 'saved' them from misinformation - re-established later thru C relig
K&T I think my pumping heart is exactly like a battery. I do not think it needs to be out of charge in order for me to be united with God. This denial of free will is a bad notion. Good or Bad things are my decision. That is not bad.
Hi Charlie it is good to hear from you. I hope you continue to be blessed and bless others.
I do not think there is much doubt here. We really do know based on our Spirit guided discernment, at least for ourselves.
Thanks, Charlie, I was saying everything except those 2 scriptures in my attempt to bring them to our understanding.
I am happy to say that I have had my Troll Vaccine and no longer have a reaction nor will I ever communicate directly with a troll again here on HP.
Chris, your inoculation seems to work just fine. (just for certainty - Matt -7:16) Go ahead and call me dumbstruck and loopy cuz I see just what you point out. I am not at all sure that I am qualified to call out good and bad fruit. Some grapes are g
Eric, I see where I missed the next verse number. Thanks. I am more at peace coming to the forums and Questions now that I've decided not to try to win against Trolls. Actually, what I am doing is winning. They don't get the satisfaction of ruining a
There's those words "my disciples"t Hummm........... Not "my Christians" Thanks cam8510
KingdomCome, I actually do see a reason for the distinction between disciples of Christ and Christian. Christian, to some, means American. A distinction between a truly committed person and nominal believer is a helpful thing.
cam8510- nationality has nothing to do someone be "called" a christian or not.
KC, I totally agree. My previous comment only meant that the word Christian as been watered down.
Wow KC and Chris that is a really interesting consideration. I think we do throw the word around without much thought as to the context in which it is used. It seems we ask "what kind of a Christian is he?"
cam8510 Understand your point, My only point here is Jesus never used the word christians to describe His followers. But they call themselves christians and not desiciples. Why?
KC, Now I get your meaning. Totally agree. Somewhere along the line followers of Christ decided to turn the tables and try to make something positive out of a negative name. Yes, Jesus did focus on the word disciple. It's a good thing to point out.
cam8510- When the word christian was first used to describe a person in a negative way they embrace it. But when Christ used desiciple to describe His followers, no "christian" seems to care. Why?
KC, Disciple, in the Greek form goes back to nearly 500BC. In Jesus' day, disciple was in common use. I think His followers liked the idea of a new, distinctive name.
cam8510- The word ecclesia is found in greek text as far back as 600 BC and some how it's suppose to mean church today. Which the church didn't exist in 600 BC. My point is it doesn't mather how far back the word desiciple goes. It the word Christ us
KC, I'm simply giving my opinion about why the early followers of Jesus chose the word Christian over the term disciple of Christ. Disciple was, to them, an outdated word. They went for the up to date, flashy name, Christian.
Is it wrong to point out that we have had some hard time with the term disciples? Jones, Wako, Ruby Ridge, those space ship folks out here is SoCal - don't they even call those Westboro folk by that term?
Eric, that is a good thing to point out. I would caution against giving up ground too easily in these things. Otherwise, believers are constantly retreating. I'd hold the ground and clarify the definition in biblical terms. It is also a slight proble
cam8510- It was Jessus Christ who used desiciples to describe His followers. If He said it, THAT settles it.
KC you must know that He did not use that word. So break it down as to what language of the time translated that notion. Are you talking Hebrew, Greek, Latin or Aramaic. Somewhere you have to give a translation notion. I think all four are different.
Eric -don't play games with me. You know exactly what I'm talking about and what I mean. IN ENGLISH IT DESICIPLE. You want to use the Greek or Latin word for DESICIPLE then go for it.
Whose perspective gets to determine good fruit from bad? One person's irritating troll is another's blessing, LoL! It seems KC is trying to make the word disciple to be a holy thing - its just a word. Something to argue about, tho.
Apologies if it took two comments to make my idea understood KC. My desire was to make clear that a word is not important. The concept of more than a follower, and yet not an equal. A learner within the global of love. What you are talking about is a
Eric- You said a WORD is not important. So tell me then, Eric. Which word in the bible is not important?
KC that worries me for I do not like anything called Nicea. And I do not trust the differences between KJV, Latin Vulgate and more.
Catherine I do believe that we are chastened not to accept "A" version or concept of belief. To each it is revealed an
KC, I checked the KJV. The words disciple and disciples attributed to Jesus 14 times. That includes parallel passages, so the count is easily under ten. I'm not saying it isn't his preferred term, but He didn't use it often. At least it isn't record
Well now, where were we? :)
Chris....You're our HERO!
Norine WilliamsJoined 2 years ago. Last activity 5 hours ago.
This user has been banned from HubPages! ! ! ! Hallelujah!
Matt at the HP office responded very quickly when I told him what had been going on here. It is really bittersweet to me. We tried to reason with her, but that yielded nothing. I hope this is a lesson to everyone who attempts to troll these venues on
And the lesson 2B learned is that there is no "reasoning" w/ those who have stepped over into the Twilight Zone. She is certified, Period The End. Thank you again, Chris.
I appreciate Eric and others who ask the questions targeted by these people. They have been patient and have tried to manage the conversations without deleting comments. But I think our patience has run out.
Thank you for you answer. This thread really has me thinking. I don't think I will refer to myself as a Christian anymore. Not that I really did anyway. But now I see this term differently. I believe in Christ, but not the way some self proclaimed do
Terrie (I just love that spelling) Isn't it cool to use our God given brain to evaluate the language we use to define our faith. I really dig Christ. Christ fills our home with joy. I am starting to think of Quakers. "Friends". Adult Sunday School!!
Response: Y Christians Acts 11:26 and when he found him, he brought him back to Antioch. So for a full year they met together with the church and taught large numbers of people. The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch.
We just take for granted that our use of scripture is right for me and also for you. I think here we have seen such "lovely" comments that we know that others know their scripture. I and we should respect that.
Eric, not everyone knows Scripture. Some don't want to know. If everyone knew the same thing, there would be no need for the question. I assumed the person who asked why Jesus didn't call His followers Christians wanted to know.
Just a quick question on basic tenets. Is the Trinity one such tenet? Is perfection in following a tenet? Nicene Creed? Lord's prayer with Catholic insertions?
Basics - 1 god, Jesus is messiah, 10 commandments, no later prophets/messiahs/revelations. Trinity, Jesus being utterly perfect, prayers to be used - negotiable.
I like your picks here and regarding country music. So please suggest what about people who have different, more or less tenets. I am so lame I really only have the two about God and others. I even question a need for auditory confession and repenten
Amen Tamara! I'm just going back reading some of the responses. There must be parameters for a discussion like this.
Diane brought this up again. You believe Christ is not God?
I found that very interesting. You did great stitching in your own experience with very intelligent observations. I do not think that it matters much here but it might. We simply are not a Secular Democracy. At the very least we are a constitutional
This response is similar to my experience. When you listen to a sermon that directly contradicts what your internal instincts & logic tells you - its frustrating, to say the least. The US was meant to be 'secular', not based on ANY 1 religion.
YOUR 'word' is a book of pages collected & manipulated by cruel pagan's in power to unite Roman masses. The actual 'Word of God' is SPIRIT & cannot be contained within those pages. Your rude judgments mean absolutely NOTHING, Norine.
Catherine I have been a bartender and owned for a bit a steakhouse with a great bar. For the benefit of all you have to know when to cut someone off and take their keys and call a taxi or wife. Norine is drunk with her perceived power over all discus
Its strange how he does all those things for you & me & others - EXTREME diversity & PROFOUND love that you obviously cannot comprehend is what God's spirit communicates. Everything else is just YOU experiencing DOGMA in your brainwashed
I noticed my comment was cut short. We are at the most comprehensive a "constitutional federal republic democracy". There simply is no directive in our governing docs that says we must be secular. Proscribes religion but does not support secular.
The U S of A was not founded as a secular nation/country but as a constitutional democracy. And if one really reads and appraises the constitution one would Know that The U S of A was founded on "GOD GIVEN RIGHTS". This dissertation interesting.
John, please correct me if I am wrong on this. I think we agree spirituality and religion are different things. Overlap but different.
I think what you are speaking of is spiritual -- not religious. What do you think?
I believe the question is a spiritual question. Our spirits will live forever regardless of earthly politics. Where will we spend eternity?
My young son and I discussed during some shooting baskets last night. We agree that souls are not born and do not die. That our desire and effort to follow the Bible are our best ways for that soul to be with God forever. Perfection? No, but try.
We can't be perfect and God knew it. For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16. We we ask forgiveness He forgives every time.
I am with you Dianne but I always feel ill at ease when someone quotes a verse from the Bible and tells another how it applies to them. Certainly if in solace it is good, but in reproach kind of iffy.
The way Christians live is the best representation of Christ. Often professing Christians don't display God's love and compasstion. That causes others to not want to be Christians. Point a finger, 4 point back at you.
Diane, I love that phrase. My wife has this great propensity to accept no achievement. She just does not believe in personal success. She is "successful". But for her and by extension our home does not claim credit. All glory goes to God. OK.
Thanks. I have a little trouble with black and white notions here. I am not confident it is an all or nothing concept.
I do not believe this to be correct; "Subjective logic cannot lead to an objective inference." Of course it can. "To me" he stinks like booze. Objective inference - he has been drinking - the smell is subjective, drunk is objective.
Hi Eric, How have u been?Firstly thanks for the insightful question. Secondly,ur example here is incorrect.if he is drunk he will smell like booze to everyone not only you. That's not what is meant by "Subjective logic cannot lead to an objective inf
Nope the smell of booze does not get discerned by those who are not familiar with drink and those who are drunk. Cops actually need to get trained in such matters. Whiskey different than beer and vodka different than gin. Mouthwash, Flambou? Handwash
But the stink is there. Its presence is undeniable. There is a difference between opinion and logic. And at the end of the day the fact still remains. The answer is still a flat NO. Another person cannot decide who is or isn't a Christian.
Well said. Certainly in this context we need to be careful about trying to objectify our subjective. Maybe this is exactly why we are directed to determine this by the empirically observed actions rather than guessing about the heart.
That is quite true! I agree.
I see your point but according to many many philosophers that is all any word is. All words are labels.
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