I have been working quite hard at looking at sin. One thing that stands out clear is that elder people generally do not sin. They may be jerks but they don't do others harm. I reflect on my own life run riot for 40 years and more. But I have not harmed my God or others for quite some time. (yes children worry about me but not because I harmed) I am beginning to think that we graduate out of sin. Or we are bad to the bone and stay there. Would you share your thoughts on this please. We all can do better.
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It is not a favorite area for me as folks seem invested in being sinful. Just my friends here announce it. But they do not show it. They simply are not but have to be by custom. So perhaps I have lost some friends. This is growth. Thank you friend.
NT (Acts to Rev) teaching on sin/eternal punishment was borrowed from Egyptians of 3k BC. I've written on this. Sin and sin nature, as described in NT, does not exist. There is only immaturity–>growth–>maturity. We outgrow immaturity, not sin n
Chris what is the name of the article where you deal with this. I want to learn more of a maturity scale. This sounds really good. I would suppose there is allowance for regression
Eric, my hub is only about the adoption of hell as punishment for sin. I have not written on the "Maturity" aspect. Short URL is http://hub.me/ajvoD. Since you asked, I feel free to post the URL. Remove it if you feel you should.
I think you can post the full URL as I cannot get there from here. But I also think we should race off to speak of maturity. That just sounds so right.
I'll leave the URL off for now unless it is requested. I emphasize growth into maturity because it is intuitive, it makes sense. We can all see how immaturity leads to bad choices with consequences. We grow as we learn from these.
U hit the nail on the head, Chris - this is exactly right. We have internal tools that develop our maturity. Humans have tried to control sin; but do we punish a child who falls when learning to walk? We think bcuz we're over 30 we're mature.
Re: maturity. I learned this in AA: "We will not regret the past nor wish to close the door on it." We embrace failure. We learn its consequences which leads to maturity. That is better than fearing punishment for sin, an immature response.
This strikes a chord with me. How many times have people told us to "believe" or we will go to hell? Sin and we go to hell? If I avoided bad conduct for fear, I fail. If I avoid it because doing good is it's own reward I am victorious.
Oh what a marvelous well written and thought out response. Chit chat and one step at that. We just kind of move along a progression like our Palm Sunday march. Yet I was sinless last Christmas, sinful yesterday and pure today. Not linear at all.
One will be what one wishes to be, see what one wishes to see, depending on the Divine. There really is no mystery. Grace has all the answers and is ever patient.
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned & Christ say require rebirthing, integrating femininity with Masculinity for thinking whole. We miss the mark/sin for that lack of unity on this plane & will demand another unity on each succeeding p
U & Elijah R half-right: there is NOTHING about 'sin' that makes us weak - it is meant to make us stronger as ALL things R. This is not to say sin is 'good'. Who sins when they are HAPPY? Sin is meant to PUSH us toward the good desires it creates
This is just wonderful Paul, thank you. You put it into a very clear cycle of life. The turning around which is repentance is a critical factor in growing better not older.
PKF, I also see repentance not as being sorry but finding the proper use for actions and living accordingly. Example: man's sex acts are mostly for pleasure but our genders, like for all animate life, are made only for maintaining our specie.
My boy and I am scheming a deal for Mom's birthday. And I sit back and play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7SvofIl--g
I am so much in love that I do not get it. I fail at sin, I thrive on love. We dance with sin, I just cannot get these things.
TM, the garden in Eden story is a metaphor of man's dividing freshly from spiritual natures within us makes sin only a term representing the nature we are living under until the new birth makes whole again.
I think that your concept is correct in large part.
John I am working on yet a third sermon on sin. My boy 7 just wanted clarification of when you have to lie like an undercover cop or spy. Maybe there are no answers - which perhaps is answer of itself.
Lies have a purpose as all 'sin' does. Often, it is to keep the other person's feelings from turning against you for something you've done 'wrong'. Spies & Cops have different reasons for using lies. In jokes is yet another different reason. :)
In retrospect I am not so sure that we do outgrow our sin Nature. We can learn to bring it under control. Our Potential for sin is always with us. That potential does not make us Bad People. What makes us bad are choices made consciously hurt others
John I was speaking with a sports therapists dude yesterday. I did downhill ski racing. There is a fear of going over 70 on shear ice. We do not make it go away, we channel it. Our sin nature should be channeled. Empathy? But not committed.
This is great stuff. Thank you Catherine. I get confused when you jump back and forth between the Bible and calling us out for being pagan worshipers. Is the Bible Pagan at it's base or just the Catholic church?
It is a mix of ancient pagan, jewish & christian texts collected by pagans trying to unite the roman empire. Its not like they were trying to deceive anyone - they likely didn't understand. Certain parts are VERY pagan such as 'salvation'.
Just answer straight up. Is the Bible based on paganism? Are you saying that Christianity is not based on Christ? Please do not weasel.
I'm not weaseling, C's R not ALL wrong. U know as well as I that God's word is SPIRIT not squiggles in a book, so his word is everywhere - even within Bible which contains truths from all 3 spiritual perspectives. 1st spothub explains deets.
Catherine I really like and respect your perspective. Can any author/persuasionist ever truly separate themselves from the traditional culture when communicating - writing, like the Bible. I try in my sermons, it is really hard.
Tools like The Bible R still valid bcuz provides a common understanding with comparative ways to reveal both lies & truths. When preaching to C's - use bible. Muslims, the Koran - Jews, the Torah, etc. No religion is 'pure' & holy books DO re
Seems there is truth to "no religion is pure" and that includes yours. Or am I wrong on that. Your view is pure and others faulty?
I don't have a religion, Eric. No religion is pure bcuz human minds distort - its supposed to. Mind has a purpose: to create a life in this existence. We are already spirit b4 we're born & we return to our spiritual home as spirit w/o religion.
Perhaps Catherine you are bigoted against the word religion like so many, easy definition is; the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
I would say you love and love fits that definition.
I would completely disagree with the way you used the word bigoted; and you are misunderstanding bcuz you can't completely see outside of the Christian box, yet - though you do better than most. God isn't 'controlling' & I don't worship him/her.
How interesting. I think your premise is wrong. Criticism? Maybe. You ask if I am seeking "an" answer. I am interested in all the answers and generally critical when one suggests it is "the" answer. Yes, this is an inquiry not a search for a winner.
Well then Mr Dieker, it appears you likewise are relativistic in your ecclesiology. Christ established only one Church in His Apostles while they handed it down directly in an unbroken descendancy. Every other "church" since 1072 a.d. are man-made.
I wonder friend who gave you that date. In communist countries they pick a date and say if this church was not here then it is not a church. I think there was a church or two that predate the Council.
The full explanation exceeds the space here. The Church of the Apostles continued until the 11th c. with the Great Schism of East/West in 1054. The Schism was not universally realized until the ascension to the papal throne by Pope Gregory VII.
FR are you really coming here with intellectual informed Christians and going to insist on Catholic doctrine? It only works inside Catholicism. I am on my fourth year of heave study of the Catechism and it only relates within- not without.
Catholic Doctrine? As in Papists? By no means Sir! I am an Orthodox Christian! Rome has been in heresy & schism since 1072.
Aren't you a bit sqeamish using Fr. I thought that term is reserved for our father in heaven. Eastern or Russian Orthodox as both had a schism. I lean toward Russian and have friends there.
Squirmish? You are funny. If I were squirmish I should have found a different vocation. I am a monk of the Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia (ROCOR)
See my comment about Orginal Sin elsewhere herein.
Well my new friend the Monk and Father. I welcome you. Please follow me along on our journey. I do not think God is waiting for us at the end. I think Jesus will walk with us the whole way. May love be your companion as it is mine.
Very interesting and well thought out. So we need God like discernment to avoid sinning?
Thanks! You're right we need God like discernment but we need to trust in Jesus to be born again to have the mind of Christ and receive His nature.
I believe that we must love Jesus with all our mind, body and soul -- which would include but be more than just trust. But maybe that is just semantics.
Absolutely, to love God (Jesus) with all our mind, body and soul is summation of the law but its only possible to love like that if we're empowered by the Holy Spirit to do so. And for that we need to have Christ living inside of us.
Ecc. 3:1-8 say there's a time for sin even after the new birth, Isa.7:14-22 say to become born-agains we must forsake god and devil over death and Ex. 3:!4 say god's mind is I Am That I Am so maybe we should rethink becoming sunless.
Elijah -- let me read those verses and get back to you. Maybe you could elaborate more.
"no longer have the predisposition towards sin." For 50+ yrs as Christian/missionary/student/pastor, I believed that concept but never saw it lived out. Christians live no differently than others. This is a theological idea, not practical truth
Chris I think you have to get pretty danged nitpicky to find an 80 year old Christian sinning. I mean what are they going to do? Have sin in the heart? I get your concept but not the details.
Eric,re: my previous comment, wba has given the common Christian input on this topic which states that Christians are morally superior to non-Christians. What else could the words, "we no longer have the predisposition towards sin," mean? Ridiculous.
Thanks for that Chris. Now I see your concern. That is a very good thought. It would seem that thinking oneself morally/spiritually superior to another would be that Vainglory sin.Thereby axiomatically not superior at all.Cool!
Really a great comment. This is my third question along these lines and I just published my second sermon along these lines. I really am trying to find a 50 yr. plus who sins. Maybe adultery will come up. But not yet.
True of most every judgmental adjective, CT, but spirit suggested to me sin only means missing the mark, a necessary part of education- objectively observing, participating for different outcomes & reasoning to explain their purposes to others.
Tom it will take 4 generations to overturn the notion of Original Sin. Folk are just invested in the "If I sin I can confess them and be saved". It is hard for people to grasp that they are not sinning. They good, and loved.
A marvelous statement of your faith based on proof. I really see where you are coming from on the Torah. It just smacks of priests putting it together to create sins in order to create need for priestly confession and forgiveness.
Sin needs to be kept in perspective: it was created by pagans to explain things they didn't understand; plus, there IS a correlation to feeling bad/doing bad things & having bad stuff happen as a result. Its a step cavemen took & now we are h
I agree, no sin nature. But I see in Gen 3 a basis for the concept. God sentenced A&E for rebellion. E was to be mother of all living w/ consequences of sin passed on to children. Next step-belief that nature to commit sin was also passed on, i.e
I think my biggest issue here is that my Christian friends insist that they are born sinners. And to say not is to challenge and call them wrong. People need sin in order to be saved from it. It is a pounded in construct.
What the people need is the truth from there perspective. They need to open there eyes from the point they are standing. Many subjects are simply a bridge to far, or out of there reach to understand it properly. Many don't even know what a fallacy is
A nice statement of a Universalism notion. Thank you.
SB, IT's love is unconditional which means it allows man to explore for the purpose of comprehending, called grace, so missing the mark or sin is only one part of it. However, bless is interpreted as "be less than civilized" or live ecologically.
Not buying it Elijah. There are basically 30+ definitions of sin. Like the 20+ of Love. And original is not a linear concept it is inception of soul based.We do no inherit - we carry forward by your logic. You are missing the mark on this answer.
Spirit has but one definition for every word, divided man gave them the others. When spirit led it reveals which definition to used for its purposes. We'll miss the mark on every plane after earth, it's require for understanding or we're conditioned.
God didn't create 30 different definitions for sin. Sin is a human concept that is so misunderstood & ramped up in the Christian religion, its ridiculous. You're clueless about sin: 'they know not what they do'. Its what makes C's dangerous.
Your wrong Catherine -- or are John 8 & 9 wrong. Christ talks about sin not man. But maybe I get your point. "Go and sin no more" and "Neither the parents or the man has sinned". Yes I could see where you get your theory.
CM, god provide 1 definition to every word man have ever used, man alter them to control others. Spiritual people seek god for definitions to comprehend what is spiritual although god prescribed the definitions man change his into. See Isa 45:7
Sin, missing the mark. That answer is because karma or reaping what's sown is the law of existence along with our purpose being to experience every perceivable experience in existence, thus, judgmental adjectives prevent our comprehending that.
The 'return' is the Law of Attraction which is also the law of existence: what you BELIEVE is what comes to you - which is why you still believe what you do about karma, Elijah. :)
Amit, let me be frank with you. The English here is terrible. The facts are wrong. Hindu & Buddhists eat meat except within certain factions and certain ways. That makes what you say hard to take serious.
But yes sin is often relative.
@Elijah & Catherine - Agreed till certain extent @Eric - Thx a lot for being so frank and yes The English is terrible but as far as i know we are here to express your thought and knowledge about a specific subject and so we should all concentrate
MC, "return" is just another term for "karma" and "reaping what's sown" which implies yo don't know the meaning of your terms. Tanks for revealing yourself.
Cool, kick that dog out
LT, do you have made things (Romans 1:20) you tell others to reveal what happened during your rebirth? I have, metamorphosis, a being's behavior is changed into another without discarnating but is very, very different from what it was before.