Does religion do more harm than good?
I wrote a hub on this topic (using this title) explaining my belief that although religion does some good in the world, it does more harm than good.
This sparked a debate in the comments section. I thought that debate might better be conducted in the forum. A brief comment on the hub--pro or con--is more than welcome in the comments section of the hub, but for back-and-forth debate, let's do it here.My thought on this, and I have not read your article yet, is that some people get mixed up by the word itself "Religion" You say "does religion do more harm than good" Well that all depends. I am a Christian person, and certainly not here to judge atheists, or Wicca, or whatever. That just happens to be who I am. I was raised a Catholic, but no longer attend the Catholic church. I am a musician as well and have played music for many different denominations (Baptist, Catholic, etc..) I believe that no matter what "religion" you are, as long as it is not satanism, that God sees what is in a persons heart and does not care what religion you are. My mother is Catholic. I have a Stepfather who is what I consider a hard-core catholic and believes that if you aren't catholic, you are surely going to hell. My mother, on the other hand even being a devoted catholic believes as I do, that there are other avenues to Heaven.
Years ago I would be argumentative with atheists or people who did not see things the way I do, but I know now and am content that I don't need to clutter my life with that kind of stress. If I believe what I believe then all I can do is live my life and try be an example without trying to change the people around me. If people could learn to love each other no matter what their walk in life is, we would learn so much more from each other. Does religion do more harm than good? Yes, sometimes it does because many people are blinded by society.What do you know about Satanism that you're against it? They make some good points that need addressing if you are to understand the full picture.
Hi Catherine,
Just thought I'd mention: conducting those sorts of discussions on the Hub itself can actually be really helpful. Search engines see your comments as well as the Hub's content, and in-depth, insightful comments can show that readers like to engage with your Hub (and also provide great supplemental info for people looking for different points of view). Just be careful to moderate your Hub's comments closely as hate speech, excessive profanity and other issues can harm your Hub's search engine rankings.
By all means, continue your discussion here as well, I just thought you might find this information useful-- ultimately, it's up to you.
Thanks Christy. That's good advice. Sometimes the same person comes back six times to argue with me, and I start to feel a little overwhelmed.
So OK folks come back to the hub and make your comments there. Actually there hasn't been hate speech or profanity so I thank everyone one for that. I also thank the people who disagree, but do it with me with reasoned arguments and facts.
No Religion teaches to harm others ... that is the work of people.
If a religious person has killed then so has an atheist. It has nothing to do with a persons beliefs. Yes it is used as tool to create wars but that is not its purpose and the people are to blame, not the religion.
Any religion, if practiced properly will always bring good.1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"
Religion is the work of people not god. It was religions that asked for human sacrifices. Religion is not going to bring any good but only division.You cannot take things out of context like that.
"Now go, attack" would mean something happened before this... it's the same thing Bush said to his army when entering Afghanistan. Meaning something happened before this quote.
Division is created even in children while they are in kindergarden. I would like to see unity just as much as you, but the fact is, it is in our nature to divide. Until there is right and wrong in this world there will be division.I think you haven't read the old testament.. I was only using the one that came to my mind first. Nothing came before that, only Israel want the land of other peoples and they were not willing to give it.
You might also have noticed that children in kindergarten reconcile even before the sun sets. My that is beside the point, you said religion do not teaches harm but I specifically showed how religion ask to harm that's all.No I have not read the old testament ... I cannot agree that Christianity teaches harm even if that came from the old testament. How can they just go and attack for no reason? there must be a reason. maybe a Christian could help here.
The old testament or most of it is Jewish scripture and it is Jewish religion that advocated to kill the people of the land. You might also know about the various pagan religions that advocatee sacrifices including human sacrifices. Now does Christianity does that? Jesus invented the modern concept of hell for christianity and he has nothing but bad words and curses for his opponents but fortunately, unlike your prophet, he could never grab power. Only god knows what he would have done if he had power. But his later followers, the "Holy" men (John Chrysostome came to mind) who were guided by "spirit", those infallibles, who taught the religious principles, did all they could. So all religions advocate harm to those who disbelieve their priests, their version and to those who don't donate money. It also does harm by advocating eternal punishment and by preventing people from seeking GOD.
In my opinion, if Jesus ruled in his time it would have been a better place at that time. He did not write any text therefore you can only assume that he had nothing but bad words for disbelievers. I cannot believe a messenger wanting to cause nothing but harm.
Religion is not about land or power. It is about hearts and souls. If people do not understand this simple fact then they did not get the message. They used religion as a tool for their own benefit.If we are not to trust the words of the bible for the words of jesus then we cannot trust it for his existence either. So if we rely on history jesus is a mythical creature just like Zeus or Anubis and whatever is said in his name is entirely made up. You cannot believe, what was your prophet doing after he got power, with a qualification to "nothing but harm", harm to those who don't believe them or oppose their rule?
Religion is man made and it was made to grab or assist in grabbing power from time immemorial. Of course the founders, some of them, might have said "love your neighbours" but that neighbours usually include their own kind only and not only humans but even social animals are doing it without anybodies directive.I disagree ... it is not about money or power or land. sure there was a struggle in the start because of all the opposition but the message was of peace.
The crusades were not about peace - they were about killing infidels.
The inquisition was not about peace - it was about power.
The witch hunts were not about peace - they were also about power and land.
The opposition to gays is not about peace - it's about the power to enforce beliefs onto others.
Overall, any time a religion moves beyond it's own doors it's not about peace - it's about money, power and/or land.>>>The crusades were not about peace - they were about killing infidels.
Yup
>>>The inquisition was not about peace - it was about power.
Yup
>>>The witch hunts were not about peace - they were also about power and land.
Nope. They were about fear and ignorance which speculators in all societies utilized.
>>>The opposition to gays is not about peace - it's about the power to enforce beliefs onto others.
Nope. Its about unnatural acts that have brought on a plague of disease with a lack of accountability to or concern about normal folks. And lets not confuse a dislike of an action with a phobia.
>>>Overall, any time a religion moves beyond it's own doors it's not about peace - it's about money, power and/or land.
Properly projected in or out of "their own doors" there is value to societies other than monetary. A secondary problem is most folks want the aid that Christian groups give but do not want to hear why they do it."The witch hunts were not about peace - they were also about power and land"
You are mistaken - do some research into what happened to the land of "witches" in the US. What happened to belongings of "witches". Europe was probably different to some degree, but in the US, the witch hunts were primarily used as a method of theft.
"Nope. Its about unnatural acts that have brought on a plague of disease "
Sorry, but "unnatural" is a good indication that what I said is true. It is "unnatural" to you, not the gay, and thus must be curbed. An imposition, then, of your power and because of religious beliefs as there is nothing at all "unnatural" in the act of homosexuality. Look around the animal kingdom at other animals for confirmation.
Yes, there is a value to societies, at least the part of it that likes that particular religion. To the rest, being subjected against their will to a specific religious belief, it's nothing but an abuse of power.Witch hunts have been a part of all societies that engaged religious shaman. To chose the US alone, and I assume with it the indigenous peoples, is ignoring that fact. Where ever man has been, there has been religion and with it priests and shaman. Of course, the Ik tribe of Uganda does not seem to have a religion, but then who wants to live in the society.
Unnatural explains itself when one considers procreation. The dictionary defines it well as does the Bible, Romans 1:26-28. Seems to me they both say the same thing.
And to consider yourself a part of that group of the wild animals you allude to, is to degrade yourself and other human beings, 1 Corinthians 15:39. But then some folks still think evolution works.
And as to the last, again, the work so many of these folks do does not need my defense. Ingratitude cannot be overcome.But I speak specifically of the witch hunts - the drownings, but pressing to death, etc. in the US. Proclaimed to be religious, persecuting those that worship Satan, but closer examination reveals a much different story. As I say, do some in-depth research on who got the land and belongings after someone accused a witch.
"The dictionary defines it well {homosexuality as being "unnatural"} as does the Bible, Romans 1:26-28." I do believe that that's what I said: you wish to impose your religious beliefs (such as that given in Romans) onto others that do not share the same belief. As to a dictionary definition:
unnatural
[ ˌənˈnaCH(ə)rəl ]
ADJECTIVE
contrary to the ordinary course of nature; abnormal:
"death by unnatural causes"
Again as I suggested, look to the animal world and you will find that homosexual acts are fairly common, particularly in the primate family.
Again, same thing. While you may expect gratitude for "saving a soul" by force, it isn't likely to happen any more than you would be grateful to a Muslim for imposing Sharia Law over you.>>>But I speak specifically of the witch hunts - the drownings, but pressing to death, etc. in the US. Proclaimed to be religious, persecuting those that worship Satan, but closer examination reveals a much different story. As I say, do some in-depth research on who got the land and belongings after someone accused a witch.
Well my friend, this is nothing new and it is not limited to "witch hunts." The greedy have always used religion in on form or another to get what they want. This includes debasing God and the things of God as much as using God. But I think we both know that the label used is not the real culprit. Its just the most useful at the time. In most cases it is the amoral leading the fearful and indolent.
>>>"The dictionary defines it well {homosexuality as being "unnatural"} as does the Bible, Romans 1:26-28." I do believe that that's what I said: you wish to impose your religious beliefs (such as that given in Romans) onto others that do not share the same belief. As to a dictionary definition:
unnatural
[ ˌənˈnaCH(ə)rəl ]
ADJECTIVE
contrary to the ordinary course of nature; abnormal:
"death by unnatural causes"
I suggest that this issue has been twisted to accommodate a select minority who are vociferous in their outcry. And the above "witch hunt" mind set of the greedy above would fit these folks perfectly.
The word "impose" is used here in the same manner. This crowd, small though it may be, is imposing their "life style" on others. And if we look closely, it has little to do with "love". It has to do with taxes, entitlements and other cost factors. Sorry but those folks can do what the want to each other, but when it comes to "imposing", it is quite apparent who and what are doing such.
>>>Again as I suggested, look to the animal world and you will find that homosexual acts are fairly common, particularly in the primate family.
We, at least I, am not a wild animal, nor a kin to one.
>>>Again, same thing. While you may expect gratitude for "saving a soul" by force, it isn't likely to happen any more than you would be grateful to a Muslim for imposing Sharia Law over you.
Lets not confuse a "bowl of rice, a Bible and a smile" with chopping off heads. And, please, lets not jump back to the middle ages again just to make a point. The "church" apparently did you wrong some place along the way, but God probably didn't like it anymore than you did.
Another one that fails to see that dictionary definitions do not represent how a word must be viewed, they report "common" usage. You can't make a valid point by saying: The dictionary says homosexuality is abnormal. So what? What authority does the dictionary have? Zero.
Just because it reports common sentiments doesn't make those sentiments correct. And, what dictionary are you using? I haven't seen one yet that says its unnatural or natural. A dictionary isn't supposed to go beyond reporting usage. Homosexuality is an attraction to the same sex. Saying anything more than that is not the preview of a dictionary.
very true... and that is the point I'm trying to make. Whenever it's about money, power and/or land, the people are not following the message of the religion they follow. They can do as much harm as they like, but that does not mean they are the true followers of their religion.
The message of religion is grabbing power, people are simply following what the founders and leaders are doing.
We have some evidence of religion for about 10000 years and what we have found is that (even to the present) the shamans/priests are the richest and powerful people and it is these people who create the religious tenets. People love and hate each other irrespective of religion, religion simply magnifies human behavior and use the bad one for its own growth and the good behavior is co-opted only to make it acceptable and make the shamans rich and powerful.
If it was of peace why should be a struggle, no it was about power and with whom does it reside.You may have noted in the 10,000-year history that the originating people were not rich until they died. they were not after money. power came automatically because of the number of followers, but you cannot blame them for being hungry for power either. there are opportunists/manipulators everywhere in this world who find a way to play with hearts and make money and end up in the seat of power. We see these kinds of people even in offices in our daily lives. In my opinion that is not the initial purpose of religion.
It's not the initial purpose of religion, but it is the purpose of organized religion.
In history, you may have noted both good times and bad times under certain religious rule. It depends on the leaders and the people. The core/soul of religion has always been harmless.
I would disagree vehemently, but unfortunately would get banned...lol
Leadership does nothing more than promote the sound bites of what the majority desires.
Not one form of religion has ever been "harmless" from its inception, be it sensational or scientific.So America has been at war for 222 years out of 239. According to your statement, this is what the American's desire? So I am wrong when I tell my fellow countrymen than the American people are good people? This would make my life so easy ... I just have to agree with everyone here.
it depends on how you look at it ... as I was saying earlier, if you look at the actions of people and judge religion then you will see it as harmful every time. If you look at religion itself then causing harm is not the essence or soul of it. the same goes for science. there is a greater purpose. But if you are pulling someone out of a swamp, there is a high chance you will get dirty.It is not what the American's desire, what the American desire is a better life for themselves and the leaders have no choice but to make war to do that.
That is exactly my point. It's the leaders who caused America to shine under such a negative light in this world, not the people.
A better life is what every individual in the world wants. That doesn't give every leader a free pass to get blood on their hands.If America didn't go to war, the people will not get the good and it will be the leaders blood. It is not that the leaders want war but they are forced to because people want good. War is the incidental byproduct and people are indirectly responsible. If people are willing to forgo some of their "luxuries" then there will be less war, but they are not, are they?
There is a right way of doing things and there is a wrong way of doing things. The leader chooses the route. That is what he/she has been elected to do so. It should be their blood if they make the wrong choice too, not just if they do not perform.
You have written as if you have no idea about international relations. I will give you a simple example, suppose you have gold in your property and I and my people want it but you want to give it to someone else. We will elect someone who will promise to give us the gold as president so if he didn't get the gold he will be ousted. As you never want to have any dealings with us you will not give it, so my president has no choice but grab it from you. See, we do not want war, but we want the president to get us gold. The president do not want war but he has to do it to keep his job. So even if neither of us want war that is what we get. May be some of us protest against the war but we will make more protest if we do not get the gold, we are not willing to forgo the luxury of gold, but less people will protest against the war. We do not see the link between gold and war, that is the problem with democracies.
No, I have very little interest in this department. thanks for taking the time to explain it. So democracy fails humanity at a certain stage. You have any other solutions?
Yes, this is America, and it's supporters, desire: continued conflict. That much has been obvious for a very long time.
Religion, either expression, comes AFTER the majority has selected its desire. The leaders apply that desire to promote the agenda. This is then bolstered/fueled further by the engagement in said rituals by the masses. It is common knowledge among every philosopher that this has been and will continue to be the norm, so long as humanity remains embedded in systems of Reason, aka the Moral Dilemma.
Religion is not merely a set of rights and rules, as some would suggest. If it were, both applications would have ceased to exist many moons ago...well, at least you stood by your earlier statement. I appreciate the straight forward and honest attitude.
I read your response to the original question. At least you took into consideration the whole picture and I do agree with most of it.
I would like to you know your opinion: if religion is completely removed from this world do you think the world would be any different today? In my opinion if religion did not exist people would find something else to fight over.
There was no money involved because there was no money then. They had power, bigger houses, better food and more mates, what else one wants?
These are the very people who started religion and whatever good is merely incidental.
I can think of two religions that do teach to harm others...even kill them...ancient Judaism, and Islam.
You are being biased. If you added Judaism and Islam then you should have added Christianity for the same reasons.
I am not sure, some christians, at least, disapprove the OT and the violent megalomaniac.
Religion is a myth we use to make sense of the world. Some people choose to believe in myths that are more harmful than others partly because they don't know an alternative. Some use the myth of atheism, which is the most harmful one because it basically says we are just a bunch of junk rolling around in space, which is gonna fall apart and that'll be the end of it.
That's better than thinking we will continue to live forever and ever, despite the laws of physics.
Energy never dies, it just changes form. Like it or not, you can never die.
It's really hard for me to believe that we, and everything outside of us, come from nothing.You're right. I have no idea what you are saying.
Scientist don't think the universe came from "nothing". Only creationists do.
I was under the impression creationists thought God always existed and folks came from God.
Anyways, there is a certain pitfall to the scientific mathod. You cannot deny the existence of something you cannot disprove. And if you look around, no serious scientist ever denied the possibility of the existence of God.So? You also can't deny that their might be a flying spaghetti monster. It is just as likely, with zero evidence for either.
I still don't know what you want, but I'm assuming you're an atheist.
I'm just trying to show you that modern science doesn't work on everything. (It pretty much doesn't work on anything, but that's another matter.)
While the flying spagetti monster is not likely, there are certain clues that might point towards God. What are we made of? We are physical matter. Matter is energy. Energy is vibrations of a certain substance of which we don't know anything. These vibes somehow intelligently come together to create us.You assume they are intelligent. I assume they are just results of the laws of physics. Why does intelligence have to be involved? We see examples of self-organization all the time in the world around us. I just chalk life etc. up to a larger and more complex scale of self-organization, following the laws of the universe.
I see what you mean. It reminds me of Hinduism, where God did not directly create the race of man, (s)he created universal laws (called the Ghunas) that then brought about (and maintain) everything that exists.
What I believe is the laws came from somewhere and the Universe came form somewhere.
That said, I'm just expressing what I believe because I'm not at all sure of it and I'm very interested in other people's views. I am not Christian or Jewish or Muslim and I do not want to force my beliefs on you.This reasoning presents a problem when you think about the big bang. How does a perfectly ordered universe come from a chaotic big bang if there is no intelligence involved? Even all the permutations of billions of years couldn't account for the seemingly intelligent design that exists.
I personally don't think the big bang arose from chaos. I think the laws have always been present. The only thing I think came out of the big bang was matter itself. I think the building blocks were already there(eternally).
But, I am not a physicist, I can only base my beliefs on what I know,and of course I don't even know all there is to know about physics.
Yet aren't you convinced of eternal life? What do you base your theory on, if no one can anwser the question?
I am not at all convinced.
Where I was before I was conceived, I don't know. But let's assume I didn't exist in any way. And yet, here I am. I came out of nothing. When I die, I will also disappear and I won't exist any more.
Nothing -> Me -> Nothing -> [Um... I wonder what happens next...]
I like to remain neutral when it comes to topics like Religion and also Politics. Which sometimes And most likely the reason being is that being catholic by religion and not active in the Catholic Church for years now. I had the unique experience of attending meetings for about a year, with a religious group well known by most - the Jehovah's Witnesses. A few people whom I had made the acquaintance of in the past, had invited me to several of their meetings. And this is how it all started.
After this experience I not only shook my head in disbelief, but very dumbfounded. Or you could say - confused for a better word, about all religions. throughout the world, I also became somewhat aggravated and disgusted about religion as a whole. You could say that the Ordeal with this witness group, threw a monkey wrench into my outlook overall on the topic of religion. Hence my reason for severing my ties with any religion. This has not changed my belief in God however, because I as far as a creator goes - am still a firm believer!
Of course it does. Religion is man's attempt to be deemed acceptable in the eyes of God. I think it's commonly forgotten that it was the religious leaders of Jesus' day who had him put to death. Jesus hated religiosity. He was the one who went into the temple and turned over the tables. I am a Christian man, but I fully believe in the quote from CS Lewis: "Of all bad men, religious bad men are the worst." This is true of Christianity and every other religion. But loving God and experiencing God wasn't meant to become a religion.
Your answer is way better than mine! LOL. Seriously, I agree. great reply!
Overall, I think religion does more harm than good. Although if the religion is kept out of the state's business, I see how some religions can be beneficial to society, by providing a social structure or framework that is hard to come by in a secular world.
I agree that the social structure can be helpful, although that could be obtained in other ways. Should religion get credit for the good deeds people do in the name of religion, or would these people do their good deeds even without religion just because they are good people who like to do good deeds.
I don't know. But there is a correlation between those who don't attend church, and those who are poor in America. I think it has to do with the social structure that the church provides. I could be wrong, but I do see the correlation. People who go to church/synagogue also do things like go to pta meetings,and town hall meetings, etc.
I'm not sure what kind of social structure would replace it. I would like to see ideas though.I think the correlation is poor people and church going. I'm in the process of researching this for another hub.
Would it be a bad thing if those people spent less time in church and more time at the pta meetings and working on other community projects. isn't the church diverting their time from these worthwhile activities.
Catherine, good luck with your future writings, and thank you for bringing up this discussion, but it sounds like you are trying to get people away from church and into PTA meetings..Which, by the way, I have time to do both
I'm not trying to get people to do anything. I don't think that people will quite going t church and go to pta meetings on my say so? I'm asking the question: Is church what gets people to go to pta meetings or would they do it any way. And if the latter, should we give the church credit for people going to pta metings? I think some good people go to church and some good people go to pta meetings, and some do both, but one has nothing to do with the other.
Who knows? All I said is that there is a correlation between civic minded people and churchgoers.
Plus, many churches are civic minded, and do a lot to help in the community.I agree churches do good when they help organize people to do good things in their community. Although church and religion are not exactly the same thing.
Well, I don't really know what the difference might be.
I am only speaking of the social structure it provides anyway. And only in places like the US, where it is pretty tame and doesn't interfere too much with the state and government and the most of social life. I can see religion being a real burden on society when taken to extremes. Like in the Muslim nations, or Christianity a few hundred years ago.You clearly stated that the church is taking away time from people to attend PTA meetings. Are you purposely starting these hubs/forums just for attention or clicks? You have contradicted yourself many times over now
I"M not the one who said that. Someone else did. Please quote me or reread the thread. I'm NOT the one who said that.
Well, as I said.. as a Christian, not a "religious" person I believe soundly that good works alone do not get a person through the narrow gate. Some weeks I'll go to a Presbyterian church, another week I may attend a Baptist church and so on. It's difficult to comment without creating controversy simply because I believe that their are required certain steps to be granted into heaven. No, you don't need to be perfect. That's what salvation is all about. What is good works without faith? Someone can spend their entire life being a "good" person, but they don't know God? Yes, there are MANY people out there like that, but if someone believes there is an afterlife, Heaven or Hell, and never acknowledges God then what is the point of believing that simply being a good person will get you into an eternal greatness? If you believe in Heaven or hell, it's simple. You need to have a daily relationship with God. Good works alone doesn't buy you a ticket to Heaven
Exactly, religion did do good, but the scales have tipped the other way.
You seem to be a very good person, Catherine, and religion or lack thereof never colors my assessment of people. I am a Catholic Christian but one of my good friends is a devout Buddhist, but there are no holy wars between us. I have not read your forum comments here, but I hope you are not being tied up to be burned at the stake. Individual liberty and freedom of speech are the things I hold most sacred when all is said and done.
Yes, I think in most part ,religion today dose more harm than good.
Jesus was a very spiritual and intelligent man of his time, yet an amateur shaman to allow so many wrong translations and allow so many hypocrite behaviors to room the earth. Some odd religions are harmless.
Not all religion is bad or harmful....only the ones who have no forgiveness, no tolerance, no love. A religion which encourages people to kill nonbelievers and "others" is not a religion...it's a license to murder innocent people.
I do agree with you. I'm assuming you are talking about Islam and would like to clarify one thing here from the Quran.
"Allah does not forbid you as regards those who did not fight you on account of faith, and did not expel you from your homes, that you do good to them, and deal justly with them. Surely Allah loves those who maintain justice. (8) Allah forbids you only about those who fought you on account of faith, and expelled you from your homes, and helped (others) in expelling you, that you have friendship with them. Those who develop friendship with them are the wrongdoers. (9)"
~Quran 60:8-9
The rules in place were against specific members of the non-muslim community. They are all dead now and therefore these rules do not apply today. The translation is as simple and clear as it can get. Do good to the non-believers and deal with them justly. Only those who develop friendship with those non-muslims who expelled you from your homes are wrong doers.
It does not apply to any non-believer living in our times today.Does "doing good" also involve chopping off their hands and feet? Lovely religion.
Doing good does not involve cutting hands. Doing bad does, but with very strict rules to the point that when there is a shadow of a doubt in the case you give the person the benefit of the doubt. This includes stoning. The rules are strict enough that it would very rarely come to the point of stoning or cutting off the hand.
People...esp. women....have been hauled off and stone while all along profess their innocence. What benefit of a doubt????? Looks like the word of a man is all they need to remove all doubt. You really are blinded by all this bs aren't you? People don't follow the law in any religion...they just throw stones at other people who don't. "Let he who is without sin caste the first stone"....now those are words to live by. They don't make hypocrites of people. There are no perfect people, therefore, all those people casting stone, wielding swords are ALL hypocrites.
With the support of many faithful Christian believers my people are unequally judged and punished even to death every minute of the day. I've seen an article in a Christian magazine asking for Christians opinions of this and every one of them said tough luck, we don't care, and that's what they get. This was opinion after opinion and not a single voice expressed any compassion or remorse. I have friends from all kinds of belief systems, Buddhism, HInduism, Islam, Christian, Judaism, Paganism, etc. what bothers me most is people who would rather adhere to secular survival of the fittest and still profess to believe in God. I see people professing one thing with their affiliations, and then professing another thing with their words and actions. Why don't we just include All whether faith or not, whether our faith or not and go all the way instead of only when it is convenient for us or makes us look good or superior. Personally I find no difference in any religion. They are ALL a mixture of good and evil if not in the written word, then in practice by its' followers. I choose to forgive ALL for in doing so I forgive myself because in my belief system there is no seperateness. All are One and to life up ANY lifts the whole.
Yeah.....sure.....either the Muslims wrecking havoc on the innocent people throughout the Middle East.....well, in fact all over the world, are bad people who will rot in hell or they are doing exactly what the Koran asks of them. WHICH IS IT?
Its the Americans actually who killed over 350,000 Muslims, and leaving a casualty count of over 2.5million people. But you just choose to ignore these facts completely and blame it all on those savage Muslims who are angry because they lost members of their family. Nothing good has come ever since Americans entered this territory. Some of the terrorist groups did not even exist a decade ago.
I often wonder what is the truth because I know that we are cultured by the media to believe lies every second of the day, so why should we believe anything coming from the media. Whenever I hear someone say something contrary to what the media portrays, I believe them instead of the media because I know how they manufacture reality of my people so that we are despised all over the world by people who only know what is in the media. That's why I want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and simply forgive everyone. I'm finding out more each day that everyone is just alike even the supposed enemy. I can't hate them because I feel the same way they do about some things. They stand up for what they believe in, but we vote them into office and support their programs and do not protest. Until we all get in on getting things right together there will always be problems that seem to have no solution. I have to care about my supposed enemies. I have to care about the people who do me wrong. I don't know what religion has to say about that.
Not only do I have to forgive, but I have to seek their benefit, which is often lacking in social intervention.
I have given this link to many people but no one really goes through it for some reason. I am giving you what I know from this site which is updated in America and has educated people running the show. you can look at their credentials on the site. There is an executive summary available for download as well.
http://www.costsofwar.org/
"And those who, when they are subjected to aggression, defend themselves. (39) The recompense of evil is evil like it. Then the one who forgives and opts for compromise has his reward undertaken by Allah. Surely, He does not like the unjust. (40) The one who defends himself after having been wronged, there is no blame on such people. (41) Blame, in fact, is upon those who wrong people and make mischief on earth unjustly. For such people there is a painful punishment. (42) And if one observes patience and forgives, it is, of course, one of the courageous conducts. (43)"
[Quran 42: 39-43]
Not everyone has the same temperament, but there is a great reward for those who forgive. being given a reward by an angel is something. Being given a reward by Allah is something else.That's a really good site. However I intuitively knew all these things before the wars even started. I knew it was a bad idea and that this would be the aftermath. I'm not there to see it in person, and the media shields us from that. If we could see what is really happening to people around the world I think many would push for change towards peace.
I agree. Millions of lives have been destroyed yet that is not shown to the people, but when one or five non-Muslims are killed its plastered all over the news. You may have also noted when a Muslim does something wrong, it is specified in the media that the person belongs to an Islamic background. If a non-Muslims does it then its a disturbed individual and their religious background is mentioned but not really discussed.
The non-Muslims usually end up being called individuals, but Muslims are always part of the savage teachings.
I like those verses from the Quran. They could use a little tweaking in my book because I believe that an offender should take the place of the victim for the survivor's sake. By that I mean that if your son is murdered, then the murderer has to become your son and take care of the family. There is no hostility. It takes a horror to create a horror and all horrors see themselves as justifiable, but if you really want to be just, then act only out of love for all and not a fragmented form of love only for a segment. Just my take on this, but yes, those verses are good, but they can be better.
Yours is an interesting approach, although I think it is difficult. If someone kills my son, I would not want to see that murderer anywhere near me, let alone to take the responsibility of my son. I think that would be torture for me to look at that person every other day.
Would you want a member of the Taliban to live in America and take the place or responsibility of some American's son?
There are gender issues, social issues and many other issues to consider before making rules like this.
Tweaking in my opinion causes disbalance, and that I have seen it happen within the Muslim community. They try and do things better than prescribed and guide others to do the same, yet they don't realize what is easy or affordable for them may not be for another.
This is truly an open-ended question.
Religion, by its most primitive definition, is anything humans engage in a manner of ritual behavior, expressed by either sensation/emote or science/mechanics, who's underlying goal is enlightenment of the individual or collective. Oft times these practices are attached to strict rules and rewards for actively participating in said ritual.
That said, historically, I would wager on the side of more harm than good.
The human conscious has been very busy entertaining itself at speeds unimaginable, in what appears to be a fight for self preservation against the forces of time. Has been this way for thousands of years. And, with each passing moment, that battle intensifies in all manner of expression, as we nearly the appex of the future of humanity.
In its defense, however, religion is not the cause of this battle, this conscious struggle, but is certainly the inexhaustible fuel and fan of the fire.
James.Religion is just a word to describe a set of rites and rules in a supposed form of "worship" by which man tries to develop his own thought processes and inventions in an attempt to "get right with their gods."
In this modern world, religion dates back to just outside the gates of Eden when humanism bared its ugly teeth in the person of Cain who chose to go against God and find his own way to "utopia."
There is, by the way, no actual dating of the first "religion." The best man has been able to present, to date, is religious rites that pre-date the Flood but not the Garden.
It would be hard to say the Adam and Eve practiced a "religion" though they did use some fig leaves to try to fix things. But they did have a personal, "face to face" relationship with God. Though they messed up, they never questioned God's position, HIs pronouncements nor His right to do as He did. This is not "faith" as we see it, but belief by knowledge. (This is another subject.)
Religion has to do more with a mix of faith and personal interest, which is accompanied by a set of rites and rules that are supposed to bring one closer to or back to God, the new fig leaves if you will. At best, it can do this. But few times is man at his best in this area.
More times than we care to consider, these "religions" end up back at the Garden with a new snake in the form of the present day charlatans hissing out his or her sweet tasting venom, using a loose translation of a holy book, to make a buck off the searching millions. Is it any wonder that man has such a low regard for organized religion?
And man, after being burned by religion, being as unchanging as he is, moves into the mode of Cain with a thought process that begins with "Who needs God anyway" and ends with "There is no God." Man has (and continues to) developed a multitude of "religions" based on "If it feels good, do it. If it hurts my interests, develop something that feels good." It is an effort in futility on his part to be equal with God and thereby supplant Him.
No man-made set of rites or rules or fig leaves will ever bring man to a place of contentment or equality with God.I would suggest if we told congress and the president to grab a gun and go do what they want the young folks to do, war, as a thought process would be greatly curtailed.
It is always obnoxious to hear those in washington saying things like " the American people want...." I suspect they haven't the slightest interest in what the people want, if the "people" are not politicians.
It is equally obnoxious to hear folks that benefit from this country, spitting on it with words of discount, that includes foreign as well as domestic. (Hello, alice baldwin.)
War has always been in spite of God.Although I am certainly on your side when you mention our politicians, the final sentence is a trifle troubling. Given the explicit instructions as well as examples of God's declared wars, it is a little difficult to understand how or why you would say that war is always in spite of God. Can you elucidate here, with specific attention paid to God's genocidal actions as well as His instructions on how and when to wage war?
Actually it was worded with your past comments in mind. As well, I have comment in the past on the reasoning as I see it.
God didn't just pick on folks He eventually had to put away. Each society or nation which was destroyed either directly by Him or by the use of man's armies which He does control, were, at one time, give a choice who they would follow. The destruction that followed did not necessarily follow the immediate rebellion. And even those pagan nations He used for His judgements were given opportunities to repent.
However, when God did "war," His methods were without rules as we see them, cruel I believe some folks described it. He destroyed completely which is the only way to fight a war. I believe history will support this. Certain societies no longer exist, that is true. But neither does their ongoing threat to peace.
To be more succinct, the only way to treat a "mad dog" is to kill it. (Probably hear from some PETA on this comment.)??? You're completely losing me. Either God "did war" or He did not. If He did, then the statement that "War has always been in spite of God." doesn't make a lot of sense.
Unless of course you subscribe to the theory that "He made me hurt him because he didn't behave as I want him to" is a valid reason to kill.
Nor do I think you will find much agreement that total annihilation is the best way to wage war; if that were accepted as true the A bomb would be the preferred method instead of being used just twice in all history.The "Blame God Paradox" rears its head again.
How can you blame God but not believe in Him? Its impossible.Note I used " " around war. It is a well understood word for the subject at hand. However, I don't believe or accept that God ever started a "war." The conflicts and destruction in which He and His people were a part of in the Bible are judgements. They are the end result of man's refusal to accept Him as the Creator, to use one of His titles. God is long on patience but there is an end to it. He put a stop to those things that were ruining His creation. And it is too bad that some do not like His way of doing things (see the last line below).
As to wars and how they are fought, the wars enacted by men are usually a farce, perpetuated by those in power for more power. They have nothing to do with God. It has been said that there is more money made during a war than during any enterprise in peace.
Then, too, even though some will decry Truman for his ending the war and try to support the actions of Japan which began WW2, the end result was the way wars should be fought. The Korean debacle led to the Viet Nam disaster. Why? Because Truman did the right thing in WW2, was chastised for it and did not repeat it in Korea. So we, being the most technologically advanced armies in the world, end up the policemen of the world with no power to finish the job. As a result, following Korea, there have been several more losses to less than modern "armies." This has empowered groups such as al quaeda and isis. So there are is only one rule in war, win while serving a lesson to others. That is how God seems to work.
God is the creator and who is man, His creation, to dictate to Him? Those that tried His patience too much or too long, no longer exist. And the next chapter is probably not to far in the future.
It isn't so much as to what other politicians want but what the big donors want. Money and only money speaks in this country.
Here's a brief summary of my opinion on the topic. I'm not super educated on the topic so I can't heavily weigh in, I stopped going to church when I was 6 or 7. Now that i'm an adult I chose to believe that good morals over religion is more important. I do believe it does more harm than good based on the few things I am informed on and have based opinions around. First of all, religion has held back science and medicine since it's creation. I have no doubt we'd be far more advance in technology and treatment of various diseases if it were not for religion. A more specific example is stem cell research. Stem cells for you that don't know are cells that can take on the job of any cell in the human body, which is pretty amazing. They can be taken from umbilical cord blood after the birth of a child which doesn't even harm them, yet religion has tried to ban this research many times.
Then there's the topic of gay marriage. I personally support it 100%. But whether you agree with it or not shouldn't matter, because there is supposed to be a thing called "Separation of church and state" which should prevent religion from holding back the union of two consenting adults.
Another thing I don't agree with is that churches don't have to pay taxes. They claim money is the root of all evil yet send baskets around at church services for donations. If churches paid taxes like everybody else, we could house every poor person in this country...think about that! Religion has also ironically lead to a lot of wars. Back a long, long time ago when Christians were converting people, they didn't do it very nicely. They used scare tactics and violence and got the upper hand from the start. And it's still being fought over to this very day.Religion = violence
People cannot quit using violence to settle their differences. Too often, violence leads to more violence because people cannot seem to have an intelligent discussion without feeling offended. Violence negates any good a religion might do because once violence is used in the name of the religion, the religion is forever viewed that way. Islam has ruined itself in the eyes of non-Muslims. Look at how the once embracing west has turned against Islam. I don't want it in my country, not anymore because it is in the tenets to kill the non-believer and the fanatical nuts are drawn to it like flies to manure. Sorry......until Islam cleans itself up, no one in their right mind will say it is peaceful.Let's remember that everything human is used for both good and for evil. Having said that I have had my problems with religion so long as I was looking for an outer organization, but when I found religion from within, then I became the happiest person in the world. Now I'm back to square one as an animist who believes All are One as God and that this is the only true religion. Everything to the contrary is falsehood and problematic.
ShawnI'm sick of being compared to Islam; there is no comparison between Islam and Christianity or Islam and Judaism. Islam has literally stolen the holy places of the Jews and Christians..... No where in Christianity does it call for the murder of non-Christians OR even forcing non-Christians to pay a fine. Islam is the most violent of all the religions. They are the most unforgiving. I resent the comparison! The only reason Islam is mentioned with the other two is because it grabbed Jewish and Christian ideas and then vulgarized them. Did Christianity and Judaism have a violent past? Yes, they did. Fortunately we grew up and left the backward thinking behind. Islam has not!
Applause for the thinking reasoning folks. And so we see little "Err" in Jane's comment.
Christianity renounced violence hardly hundred years before. Islam is six hundred years younger and given time it too will renounce violence.
Meanwhile let them attempt to reach Christianity's score
Just like Christianity that has literally stolen the holy books and places of jews!
Jesus was a Jew, the Christian faith began as a Jewish sect....of course Judaism was incorporated into Christianity. No comparison at all with Islam stealing Jewish and Christian concepts.
That is the same way Islamic faith began and Judaism and christanity are both incorporated into islam just like Judaism was incorporated into Christianity.
By the way Jesus is a myth and if anyone can be considered the father of Christianity it's Paul(or whoever was behind that facade). There were many sects in Judaism and one of them evolved into Christianity.
Why is everyone so defensive of their religion? I mentioned the ancient Israelites not the modern ones. Anyone can read the bible and see lots of violence back in those days. Instead of taking offense why not simply state the facts as they are. Nobody is condemning modern Judaism, but even Jews I think don't like some of the things in that book. If we're fighting and hostile over this little statement there is no hope for religious people to ever find peace, and hence the need for forums like this one asking the question...
Ok, I'm going to go all out on this one...why look to religion in the first place when even a baby knows what love is? What if everyone threw away their holy writings and made friends of everyone else?
Not going to happen. People just aren't like that. I would love to SEE it, but I doubt it will ever happen. People are too clannish and territorial.
I'm like that. I would gladly give up my religious beliefs if it would mean world peace and prosperity, heck I'd give up my religious beliefs just to make a new friend. Religion just isn't more important to me than people.
Like stop making bibles and korans and plant a tree
Culture . government, color, idealism other than religion.will still keep us at odds. Language barriers also. Religion is just one blame
Islam infighting kills the most Muslims. I fail to see Baptists killing Lutherans. .these days or Mormons killing Presbyterian. Or Catholic kiling Christian. These days..whats that tell us?
Catholics and Protestants were killing each other in Ireland for a really long time, centuries.. Hostilities may have subsided as of late.
That conflict is stale. And more over country not religion.it isnt comparison. Chirstianity grew out of barbaric ways
Point well taken. I keep forgetting I'm from another planet.
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