When God come How many people will be saved?

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   haj3396posted 13 years ago

   When God come How many people will be saved that are alive. the bible states only 144,000, that are alive will be save out the whole world. How many dead will be saved, the bible state a number that no man can number.

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      qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      ...you can't be serious?

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         haj3396posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I give Bible Studies.

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            Paul Wingertposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            So you're not serious.

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      Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      To your question ...
        Short and incomplete answer as to what the bible says.
             
              Not using the word  SAVED one time!
      144,000 Hebrews will be redeemed from among the living.
      There is a great multitude that comes out of the tribulation also seen.(Rev.6- 9-12)  Rev. 7:14)
      
         "THE  Beast" is seen rising up out of the sea.  (C. 13)
      
         First resurrection happens. (C. 20  caused at same time as C 14.  same time frame)
         Those that were killed for their testimony of Jesus and did not take on the mark.
      This didn't say anything about  ALL the believers being seen in heaven.  Those that are seen there were only those that were killed for their testimony. This is the first resurrection.
         From that time forward those that die in the Lord rest from their labors and their works follow them (to heaven).(C14:13)
         Satan bound for 1000 years at this time.
      
        After the 1000 years the Dragon, the Beast and False Prophet are seen in the dried up river bed when the sixth bowl is poured out. (Rev. 16:12) This bring about the final battle.
      
         Rev. is easier to understand when the knots in the rope are taken out and the rope is laid out in a straight line.
      
         At the final battle everyone dies. And are raised again.
      
         If ya noticed?  The 1000 years lies within the 42 months of the Beast   I'm just saying that which is written. 
        Do I believe it ? 
        Don't know?  But this is what is written.

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         haj3396posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I give Bible Studies.

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      Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Only pure people will be saved, too bad for us sinners.

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         Wam1222posted 9 years agoin reply to this

         I know this is an old post, but I hope you read this anyway. I need to let you know that there are no pure people and that sinners are saved every day. The Bible says none of us truly seek God but that He offers us grace if only we receive it by faith.

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            wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            How can you tell?  Not what the bible says will happen (read it and you will find that answer) but that it is actually happening?

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            The0NatureBoyposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Wam1222,
            Daniel 12:10 and 1 John 3:9 suggest there either are or will be pure people when the end comes.   However, the prophecies suggest those who are to survive civilizations end are Jews -- meaning chosen or predestined -- to survive any civilization's end.  [The bible's message is about a repetitious cycle (Genesis 1:14 & Ecclesiastes 1:9.]   The historical Jews are only a symbol of the ones chosen to survive world's end to replenish it for he next civilization (Revelation 20:4-5).

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      Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Daniel 11:45 is talking about one of the kings belonging to the fourth kingdom upon the earth..... THE ROMAN EMPIRE  !!    This king (the little horn) is said to replace three kings after the first ten kings.  The 14th emperor.
      When he comes to his end (dies)  AT THAT time Michael stands up for the children of Daniels people and many will be redeamed from the earth (the living) and many from their graves. 
         At that time the Hebrew Nation became non existent (138 AD)    The power of the Holy people was scattered to the four winds (Daniel 12:7)                                                 
         These that are redeamed from the living are the same as are described in Revelation;  ...          (the 144,000) who have never sinned.  These will be in the "Kingdom" of God, those in authority.    The rest of us will be governed by these 144,000.   
          When we understand this, and then see all later prophesy  in a way conforming to this, we see a completely different prospective scripture.

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         Robertr04posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Just curious Jerami. Do you honestly believe that there are 144,000 people that have lived, that have not sinned? Other than the Messiah, "all fall short".

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            Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            been out for a while  sorry ..  I believe that is what the book says.   As fare as sinless? that may have been an overstatement.   Just go by what the book says about these 144000 people.

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         rjwoods181993posted 10 years agoin reply to this

         its not necessary those who have never sinned that are the 144,000 but more so those who are virgins weren't defiled by woman. I believe particularly  that this virgin means spiritual virgin. because you read about the parable of the 10 Wise virgins and the 10 foolish virgins. I believe the woman is the harlot who rides the beast. aka the false religious system that the kings and inhabitants of the Earth are drunk off fornication with, May the Lord Bless You and keep you My friend, remember in revelations it says hes coming with a New Name and that Messiah is a Highpriest in the Order Of Melchizidek. many people think Jesus Christ our Messiah is Michael. Zedek means king of Righteousness.

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            Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Wow, who dug this one up Care for one more opinion? They "were not defiled with woman." A woman is in Scripture the symbol of a church, a virtuous woman representing a pure church (don't know of one,but...), a corrupt woman representing an apostate church. It is, then, a characteristic of this company (144,000) that at the time of their deliverance they are not defiled with the fallen churches of the land, nor do they have any connection with them. Yet we are not to understand that they never had any connection with these churches, for it is only at a certain time that people become defiled by them. In Rev.18:4 we find a call issued to the people of Yahuah while they are in Babylon, to come out lest they become partakers of her sins. Heeding that call, and leaving her connection, they escape the defilement of her sins. So of the 144,000: though some of them may have once had connection with corrupt churches, they sever that connection when it would become sin to retain it longer. They follow the Lamb withersoever He goeth. We might understand that this is spoken of them in their redeemed state. They are the special companions of Yahusha in the kingdom. Of the same company and the same time, we read, "The Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters." Rev.7:17.  They are "first fruits unto Yahuah and to the Lamb." This term appears to be applied to different ones to denote special conditions. Yahusha is the first fruits as the antitype of the wavesheaf. The first receivers of the gospel are called by James (1:18) a kind of first fruits. So the 144,000, being prepared for the heavenly garner here on earth during the troublous scenes of the last days, being translated to heaven without seeing death, and occupying a pre-eminent position, are in this sense called first fruits unto Yahuah and the Lamb. With this description of the 144,000 triumphant, the line of prophecy which began with Rev.12 comes to a close. Here again just my thoughts.

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            Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Concerning the 144000; (Rev. 14:5) And in their mouth was found no deceit for they are without fault. AND they were virgins which I think means they were not distracted by any pleasures of the world.
                  I understand this to be talking about 144000 Hebrews who were alive when the 14th Emperor of the Roman Empire died as described in the book of Daniel.
                  I don't think the parable of the Wise virgins and foolish virgins are connected with prophesy.
            
                    I don't think we can begin to understand prophesy unless we understand the timelines in which they are said to begin. There is clearly a chronological pattern being described.
            First Jesus arrives in heaven, he isn't there one minute and then suddenly the lamb is there, all bloody as  if it had just been slain. Upon his arrival he immediately opens the first four seals... And Then ...
               Point being, there are a lot of and then this happens ...  and then this happens etc. etc. ..
               And when the seventh seal is opened .... nothing happens except a passage of time in dully noted.
               IMO the seventh seal was opened when the 14th Emperor of Rome died (138 AD)
              Approx 400 years pass  before the Trumpets are given to the seven angels.
            
              Rev 16:2 describes the first vial being poured out.  This is a perfect description of the Black plague which killed 1/2 to 2/3 of the population in Europe and Asia in the 13th century.
            
            It is written is scripture that God is outside of time.  A day is as a year and a year is as a day. But Prophesy is a different matter totally separate.
            Gabriel told Daniel that it shall be 62 weeks until they kill the Messiah.  This is a prophesy! 568 years later Jesus was killed. 
            I think this is clearly  comparing 568 years earth time as being equal to 62 weeks in prophesy.
            If this is true ?  42 months in prophesy would be about 1650 years.
            This makes sense when we consider that it is written the Devil gives his power to the beast that rises up out of the sea.  AND Then he is bound in the bottomless pit for 1000 years. Upon his release, he, the beast and false prophet are seen in the dried up Euphrates river.  According to what is written in prophesy, the 1000 years are contained within the 42 months the beast is given to blaspheme.

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               Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this

               I should know better, but curiosity is getting the best of me. If the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire in Rev.19, how and when did they meet up with satan at the Euphrates? Where does it say he was there? What verse, chapter, book? I'm trying to keep up with you. A day to the Father is like a 1000 yrs. A day is as a year and a year is as a day in prophecy. That's why if you use that formula everything falls into place. Didn't we go thru this before? But, to each his own.

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                  Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  It is written that a day is as a year and a year is as a day for the Lord.  ...BUT ...  concerning prophesy ?        I believe that a consistent equation must be held when reading prophesy. Whatever equation is used concerning all references of any given time frame in prophesy would have to be  consistently followed.
                  After Jesus was almost finished speaking to these four disciples privately as described  in Matthew 24;  He said, (paraphrasing here)   "OH Yes; this is all going to happen this century, but no one knows exactly what day it will happen.   
                  In Daniel, Gabriel gives Daniel this message. The Nation of Israel is given 70 weeks to finish their transgression  and quit sinning.  And in 62 weeks they are going to kill the Messiah. That was in 538 BC Gabriel said this.   This is the only real clue in the bible specifically comparing prophetic time with earthly time.  62 weeks equals 568 of our years.
                  
                    The beast with seven heads rises up out of the sea (Rev 13)  Then Satan gives it his power; Then, Satan is bound for 1000 years. And when the sixth vial/bowl is poured out, Satan, the beast and false prophet are seen in the dried up Euphrates river when spirits are seen coming out of their mouths to gather together the kings of the earth for that last great battle (Armageddon)
                  
                  The 42 months the beast was given has to be a greater length of time that 1000 years.
                  52 weeks on earth is called a year. 52 weeks in prophesy is called a "Time"  1/4 of a time is called a season.   
                  There has to be a consistent equation for comparing prophetic time with our real time or there no reason to give the prophesy in the first place.   
                  If 62 weeks = approx 568 years, a week would equal approx 9.16 of our years. A month would = approx 39 of our years.
                     
                  the 42 months the beast was given would be equal to approx 1645 of our years. 
                  Why do you suppose these seal, trumpet and bowl judgments were divided out this way just for the church to clump them all together again?
                  The seal judgments were totally separate from the rest.  Because they were inflicted upon that Hebrew Nation which rejected Christ. And some time after the 70 weeks were finished ... the 14 emperor of Rome The Nation of Israel no longer existed. Every single Hebrew was deported and scattered through out the rest of the Roman Empire. 
                  Everything described with the opening of the seven seals was accomplished in 138 AD when the "Little Horn" died

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                     Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     I see this may take a great deal of time. I knew this prior, from the last time we talked. I also know we will agee to disagree on what you have written in your post. 2Peter3:8; Ps.90:4 tell us a day is as a thousand yrs to the Father. Show me your book, chapter and verse that says a day is as a year with Him. I also believe a consistent equation must be maintained when reading time prophecy. As I said in a previous discussion with you, Num.14:34, Ezek.4:6 confirmed by the words of Yahuah Himself the day for a year principle, of course you don't and I fully expect you won't accept that. Let me ask you, what do you believe to be the 'little horn', where does it speak of a 1/4 'time' being a season? We do agree a 'time' is a year. And this question is a little different. Was Abraham a Jew, Hebrew and an Israelite? I'm just trying to get a feel for where you're coming from, because although I have truly appreciated many times your philosophical words, I have never been able to agree with anything (except once above) you have said on a religious note. Not saying I'm right in my beliefs/opinions. It's just you seem to be way out there, by your lonesome, in what you understand the Book to be saying That may not be bad at all. Be back tomorrow, Shalum

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                        Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        You are correct !!  I'm the only person I know that believes what I believe. There are many preterits and many Historicist. I'm a little bit of both but have major differences with both.
                        I think we agree that these verses which say for the Lord a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day is basically saying that GOD is not caught up in time.
                              Ezekiel 4:6 ..  The Lord is giving  Ezekiel a mandate to lye on one side for so many days for each day in this instance will represent that number of years. This is unrelated to prophesy of scripture. This verse could have as easily said; Eat this many apples for in this instance each apple will represent that many years.  Therefore an apple = a year for this particular mandate.  It is natural to assume these verses about a day representing a year  when attempting to decipher the many periods of time mentioned in prophesy.  I believe this is a false assumption.   
                            The only verses in scripture which are specifically  talking about any timeline comparison between prophetic time and its relationship with time as we know it in in Daniel 9.  The first verse tells us what year that Daniel receives this message from Gabriel.  Within a year after Cyrus the Great conquers Babylon (Oct. 15, 539 BC) Gabriel says "THE Commandment went forth (a week or so prior when Daniel started praying)   And from the going forth of that commandment, (The Hebrew Nation) Daniels people have 70 weeks to quit sinning and anoint the most high,                                                                     and in 62 weeks they are going to kill the Messiah.
                        
                          When scripture says a day is as a year to the Lord, it is not saying anything about timelines in prophesy.  But this verse specifically says in 62 weeks a particular event will take place. 568 years later that event did take place.
                          There are no other verses in the bible which is specifically talking about Prophesy which gives a clue comparing prophetic time and earthly time.
                           Look at it this way, God is not caught up in time. This does not mean the Angels aren't. So lets assume they are.  God tells Gabriel to go give Daniel a message. God tells Gabriel these things in a way which he is sure to understand correctly; in terms which he understands. Gabriel then repeats them to Daniel exactly as they were told to him.  62 weeks as Gabriel understands them would be equal to 568 years as we understand them.
                        
                            But, lets use the day for a year theory. Forty two months the Beast is given to blaspheme would be equal to 1260 years on earth.   Also ..    Lets look at Rev 9:15 when the sixth trumpet sounds.
                        release the four angels who were prepared for the hour and day and month and year to kill a third of mankind.
                           Their killing spree will last for an hour and a day month and year. When we apply the day for a year method that comes out to be 396 years. This is just the length of time that it takes for these events to be finished which started with the sounding of the sixth trumpet.
                        When using my calculations this would take just over 500 years for completion.  If my memory serves me correctly, there was four Ottoman Caliphates, that for just over 500 years, overcame all resistance in expanding their empires.
                        
                          Anyway.. when applying my calculation that 62 weeks = 568 years... a week = approx 9.16 of our years, I was amazed by how events in history fit perfectly within the timelines as stated in prophesy.
                           I didn't express this very well cause there are SOooo many things going on in my head which needs to be expressed simultaneously in order to express it correctly.

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                           The0NatureBoyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           You said "There are no other verses in the bible which is specifically talking about Prophesy which gives a clue comparing prophetic time and earthly time."  I beg to differ with you, look at the woman in revelation 12:6, The woman who gives birth to herself, the man-child, flees and is care for some 1,260 literal days.  The woman is prophetic of the second messiah and her chid is her going through the new birth to become a man-child. 
                           
                           That woman is representative of all human as  both woman and human, in spirit, means incomplete man and therefore all human are woman.  After her new birth (John 3:1-10 & Genesis 2:24) she become a whole man.

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                              Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              I see any clue as to there being any comparison of prophetic time vs earth time in these verses you presented.  No offence but I can't grasp how you interpret what is written to your interpretation of it. You could be right, but that is too much interpreting for me. 
                              I've always understood the Hebrew People being referred to as Gods adulterous wife. And the twelve stars about her head as representing the twelve tribes of Israel. The Man Child who is to rule over all of mankind being Christ.
                                  The woman fleeing  into the wilderness where they will feed her there for 1260 days       And she is carried away into the wilderness and she hides from the face of the serpent for a time times and half . In Daniel 12:7 and 12:11 states that a time times and an half is 290 days.
                              
                              In 138 AD, Hadrian (the "Little Horn" ) began carrying away every last Hebrew to be found deporting then through out the rest of the Empire, setting in motion this prophesy described in Daniel 12. 
                              According to my calculations with a week = 9.16 years means the woman's days of hiding was ending just before the beginning of the 1800s. History tells us that Hebrew peoples began migrating in mass to that region at that time.  Concerning the 1290 days ?  I think it was in 1844 the Caliphate signed a decree allowing Hebrews to enter the cities, until this time they were not allowed to enter any cities under the Caliphate rule. The woman has returned out of the wilderness back to her homeland.
                              
                              
                              When cross referencing all of the prophesy in Daniel and Revelation, and comparing them to historical events, the interpretations CAN be envisioned  in such a way using this timeline comparison as to be seen as having been played out through out history in a chronological order.
                              It takes a lot of work to erase from our minds every interpretation that has been taught to us allowing us to formulate our own understanding of what we are reading.
                              I may be wrong and I may be right ?? at least I can say that my understanding of that which I read is truly my own. In my opinion ... Daniel 9 tells me that 62 weeks in prophesy is approx 9.16 of our years, and this has altered everything that I thought I thought when reading the bible.
                              
                              @ RobertrO4    There are four seasons in a year,  making a season 1/4 of a time or approx 119 of our years.

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                                 The0NatureBoyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 The woman isn't adulterous Israel, both she and her child is the messiah.  I have the interpretation as a Hub where you can read it.  However, I don't think I said that the time, times and the dividing of time are 3 & 1/2 years, one year in one place and 2 and a half in another.  To spirit a wilderness is a place molested by man where they don't allow the rest of earth's lifes to co-habitate with them and I didn't say that in it either.

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                                    Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    I'll check that hub out in the AM.   It's almost 1:30 AM and gotta get up early and go to work a bit.

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                                 Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 A time is only one year. This is explained in Dan.4:32. 1/4 of a time would be 90 days. We already covered the 70 wks some time ago and agreed to disagree. Nothing there has changed. You may be one of a scant few who believes the 'little horn ' to be anything other than RCC The seals have nothing to do with the Hebrews. In 1844 the Hebrews( for the most part) were in captivity, slavery to exact. The 6th trumpet sounded in Rev.9:13 not verse 15. Anyway, the calculations of some have gone upon the supposition that the period should begin with the foundation of the Ottoman Empire; but this is evidently an error; for they not only were to have a king over them, but were to torment men 5 months. But the period of torment could not begin befoe the first attack of the tormentors, which was, July 27, 1299. Thus far their commision extended, to torment by constant depredations, but not politcally to kill them. '5 months' (30 days to a month, 150 days), that is, 150 yrs. Commencing July 27, 1299, the 150yrs reach 1449. During that whole period the Turks were engaged in a perpetual war with the Grk empire, but yet without conquering it. The four angels: these are the 4 principle sultanies of which the Ottoman Empire was composed, located in the country watered by the Euphrates. These sultanies were situated at Alepo, Iconium, Damascus, and Bagdad. Previously they had been restrained, but Yahuah commanded, and they were loosed.Skipping over all about John Palaeologus, his brother Constantine, the four angels were loosed for a hour, a day, a month, and a year, to slay the 3rd part of men. This period, during which Ottoman supremacy was to exist, amounts to 391yrs and 15 days, not 500 yrs. Thus: A prophetic year is 360 prophetic days, or 360 literal yrs; a prophetic month, 30 prophetic days , is 30 literal yrs; 1 prophetic day is 1 literal year; and a hour, or the 24th part of a prophetic day, would be a 24th part of a literal year. or 15 days. The whole amounting to 391 yrs and 15 days. Vs 16, Two hundred thousand thousand. Whether the number is designed to convey the idea of any definite number, the reader must judge. Nothing can be affirmed on the point and it is not essential. vs16 Starting with this verse the arms and mode of warfare which were used in the seige in which Constantinople was to be overthrown and held in subjection were, distinctly noted by the prophet jJohn. Vs17, the first part of this description may have reference to the appearance of these horsemen. Fire, representing a color, stands for red, "as red as fire" being a frequent term of expression; jacinth, hyacinth, for blue, and brimstone, for yellow. These colors greatly predominated in the dress of these warriors, so the description, according to this view, would be accurately met in the Turkish uniform, which was composed largely of red, or scarlet, blue, and yellow. The heads of the horses were in appearance as the heads of lions, to denote their strength, courage, and fietceness, while the last part of the verse undoubtedly has reference to the use of gunpowder and firearms for purpose of war, which was just recently introduced. As the Turks discharged their firearms on horseback, it would appear to the distant viewer that the fire, smoke, and brimstone came out of the horses' mouths. Along with the Turkish artillary The walls were finally breached and the Constantinople was subdued, her empire crushed, and her religion trampled by the Moslem conquerors. Vs18 shows the deadly effect of the new mode of warfare introduced. The supremacy of the Moslems over the Grk was to continue, as already noted, 391yrs and 15 days. Commencing when the 150yrs ended in 1449, the period would end Aug.11,1840. A day in prophecy is as a year. Yeah, it takes time and much research to come up with an understanding, question is, is it the right one. A small difference between you and I, it doesn't have to be my understanding, it can be yours. I have no issue with someone showing me a better way.  If you seek His word sincerly and earnestly, light will be shed. If you continue, more light will be shed until all the truths are revealed. The light? Ruach Qudash. You know it has the Holy Spirit. IMHO, It/He will lead you to where you need to go for the right answers. Once again, was Abraham a Jew, Hebrew or Israelite? Be back tomorrow. Shalum

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                                    Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    I am confused here.  I think we have agreed that one of our days is as a year in prophesy or as I believe; a day our time is 1.3 years in prophesy)?   Except for this value of the equation difference; I think we agree.
                                    ; I think you are correct about a time as described in Daniel 4:32 being a year in our time, if a time is as one of our years, then a "Time" in prophesy would be as a day in out time?  BUT, we have already agreed that a day in prophesy is as a year for us.  This would be a glaring conundrum.
                                       There would have to be an explanation for this.
                                    IMO,where in scripture, it states that God (Himself) speaks to a man, terms such as ..., A particular event is going to happen in 7 years;then when it happens as that person being given that prophesy understands it, we can say prophesy has been fulfilled. 
                                    But ...  when a middleman enters the picture, things change. When the middle man (Gabriel) hears the prophesy in terms which he understands, he then retells the prophesy exactly as he heard it, the terms being used may be misunderstood by the third party receiving the message. 
                                    =============
                                    Nothing there has changed. You may be one of a scant few who believes the 'little horn ' to be anything other than RCC
                                    ----
                                    me   ...   The way I understand the three stories in Daniel; The first one (C2) concerning the statue, described four consecutive kingdoms which are given dominion over Daniels people. This was during the time of the first kingdom.
                                    2nd vision (7) describes 4 consecutive kingdoms, the fourth beast having ten horns which Gabriel interprets as representing the first ten kings. And then a little horn rises up replacing three horns. This is the way Daniel sees the vision, ... but ... Gabriel interprets the vision (v23)  The fourth beast is the FOURTH kingdom ...  and the ten horns are ten kings ... and another king shall rise up AFTER them and he shall subdue three kings. I will venture to make one slight interpretation here. I am assuming that not only the "Little Horn" but also, the three kings which he subdues are all four, AFTER the first ten kings making the Little Horn the fourteenth king belonging to the fourth kingdom which would be the Roman Empire. Especially when I learned there was only 14 Emperors to rule over the Hebrew Nation and that emperor was responsible for the evacuation of every living Hebrew from the promised land scattering them through out Roman Empire. 
                                           When Gabriel gives the interpretation of these visions; it needs no further interpretation!   The little horn was a king residing over the fourth kingdom.   
                                           Concerning your comment about the R.C.C.   If the R.C.C. has a a role to play in prophesy (?)  It would be the Beast which rises up out of the sea having seven heads and ten Crowns.
                                    
                                          Concerning your Question about Abraham.   Referring to someone as being a Jew, I believe, would be like referring to me as being a Texan. Abraham was never in Jerusalem, so he should not be referred to as a Jew.  And the same would be true concerning being an Israelite.
                                    Was he a Hebrew ?  I would think so (?)  I don't know when that term was first used. I always assumed Adam was Hebrew.
                                    
                                        Other than the trivial, I have a feeling you and I think a lot alike on many issues.
                                          Shalum

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                                       Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                       Shabath shalum. Could be we do have shared issues. I recall you telling me you are a Futurist. In general or detailed, please explain. Yeah, all this is just exchanging view (right or wrong??) I'm interested in prophecy. I enjoy discussing it. Rome had two aspects. This little horn symbolizes Rome in its entire histoy, including its 2 phases, pagan and papal. These 2 phases are spoken of as the :daily" (sacrifice is a supplied word) and the "transgression of desolatiion", the daily (desolation) eveidently signfying the pagan form, and the transgression of desolation, the papal. In the actions ascribed to this power, sometimes on e form is spoken of, sometimes the other. " By him (the papal form) the daily ( the pagan form) was taken away." (Dan.8:9-12)." the place of his sanctuary," or worship, the city of Rome, was cast down. The seat of govt. was removed by Constantine to Constantinople, 330A.D. This same transaction is brought into view in Rev.13:2, where it is said that the dragon, pagan Rome, gave to the beast, papal Rome, his seat, the city of Rome. Of the first 3 beasts in this vision (Dan.7) going backwards a little, Dan. had a clear understanding. But the 4th beast (kingdom). Dan. saw had an unnatural and dreadful character (Dan.7:19). Nature furnishes no symbol which can fitly illustrate the 4th kingdom. Astounding as all this was  (description of 4th beast, as all of the beasts) to him, there was something still more remarkable. A little horn came up and true to the nature of the beast from which it came, knocked off 3 of its fellow horns. The horn had eyes, not that of a brute, but the keen, shrewd, intelligent eyes of a man. Stranger yet, it had a mouth, and with that mouth it spoke proud sayings, and put forth preposterous and arrogant claims. (vs21) This same horn also made war against the set-apart people. The rise of the 10 horns, or the division of Rome into 10 kingdoms, between A.D.351 and 476, already seen in Dan.2:41. As these horns denote kingdoms, the little horn must denote a kingdom also, yet not of the same nature, because it was diverse from the others. They were political kingdoms. Now all we have to do is check if, since 476 A.D., any kingdom has risen among the 10 divisions of the Rome Empire which was diverse from them all; and if so, which one? The answer is yes, the spiritual kingdom of the papacy. As Daniel saw this power making war upon the set-apart folks, has such a war been waged by the papacy? Millions of martyrs scream yes!! Witness the cruel persecutions of the Waldenses, the Albigenes. and protestants in general, by the papal power. In vs22 3 consecutive events seem to be brought to view. Looking onward from the time when the little horn was in the height of its power to the full end of the long contest between the set-apart and oh no, satan with all of his agents, Dan notes 3 prominent events that stood as milestones along the way: The comong of the Ancient of Days, that is, the time when the set-apart sit with Yahusha in judgement a 1000 yrs, following the 1st resurrection (Rev.20:1-4), metting out the punishment to the "wicked" due for their sins. They (martyrs)  will then sit in judgement upon the great persecuting power, which, in the days of their trial, hunted them like thebeasts of the desert and poured out their blood like water. Cutting it short, we are both right. The little horn is both Rome and th RCC. All this of course is my opinion from my research and studies. Do you live in Texas? Living in Jerusalem has nothing to do with being a Jew. And you are right, he was not an Israelite, but again, not because he did not reside in Jerusalem. I see your agility again. The question, perhaps, should have been, Are Jews, Hebrews and Israelites one and the same? Just curious. You seem to bring the Hebrews into a lot of your equations.

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                                    The0NatureBoyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    I'm supposing the last reply is to me, Jeraml, since you didn't tell me what you thought about the woman in Revelation 12. 
                                    
                                    The 2 horns in Daniel are retold in Revelation 13:11 which is strictly futuristic, it doesn't happen until the leading most of the 27 nation beast {the Americas with "7 head" or major nations, "10 horns" or war torn nations and "10 crowns" or passive and content nations and also called Mystery Babylon the mother of harlots} has been destroyed as announced in verse 10.  The major things in Daniel's prophecies are  chapters 2 & 4, Nebuchadnezzar's 2 dreams which he lived the manifestation of the one in chapter 4.  The feet of Iron and clay of chapter 2, representing "the seed of man" or man of each of the 4 primary ethnics, is the same as the "many waters" of Mystery Babylon's prophecy as pronounced in 17:15 to be "multitudes, nations, people and tongues."   You must remember Daniel was told the vision he was writing was for the last days.
                                    
                                    Revelation 13's leading most head is also Judah of prophecy (Genesis 49:1 & 8-12 and Micah 5:2} since Judah means praised and Genesis' account say it's for the last days and Micah originally said it was the "last" of the earth's praised nations out os whom the "son of man" comes and lead "true Israel" or those who endures until civilization is over (Matthew 24:13).  Thus, although many of the prophecies were concerning things to happen to the people who are a prophet type of those who endure until the end of civilization those prophecies are also ab out "True Israel."
                                    
                                    Most of the prophecies in Daniel I don't even attempt to interpret, I have been led to believe they are mostly concerning historical israel, only the 2 dreams and a few others was I d t seek the meanings of.  I do know the first seal in Revelation 6, the white hours rider with a crown {knowledge about Jesus the anointed} and bow {weapons}, began with the Catholic church and given to Great Britain the mother of the USA per Genesis 49 and Revelation 13.

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      The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      By using the 10 virgin's parable I believe Jesus used 10 because about 10% of world's population, about 700 Billion man, at the time the "great and dreadful day of the lord" begins would suggest about 700 million will enter "the way" but only half will survive the final end.  According to Revelation 14:8-13, the half which doesn't make it through to the end will rest from their labors which will make them the people seen in Revelation 6:9-11, the "dead in Christ" who resurrects during the first millennium after civilization ends and together they will give birth to everyone else who discarnated. 
      
      According to Matthew 20:1-16, they will be raptured after giving birth to those not to be "harvested" (Revelation 14:15), over 6 more millenniums, with the last person saved and to be raptured first, thus, the second messiah becomes the "Alpha and Omega," the first saved and last raptured.

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      Trichakraposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      You are not serious.  Am i right?

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      The0NatureBoyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      The 10 virgin parable suggest half of 10% of man's 7 billion population, Revelation suggests 144,000 plus a number no man can number so I estimate 350 million.

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         The0NatureBoyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         So yes I'm serious.

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      dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      The tribulation saints will be innumerable - not limited to 144K
      
      The tribulation saints will hear the gospel from several possible sources. The first is the Bible; there will be many copies of the Bible left in the world, and when God’s judgments begin to fall, many people will likely react by finding a Bible to see if prophecies are being fulfilled. Many of the tribulation saints will also have heard the gospel from the two witnesses (Revelation 11:1–13). The Bible says these two individuals “will prophesy for 1,260 days [three and a half years]” (verse 3) and perform great miracles (verse 6). And then there are the 144,000 Jewish missionaries who are redeemed and sealed by God during the tribulation (Revelation 7:1–8). Immediately following the description of their sealing in Revelation 7, we read of the multitudes of tribulation saints who are saved from every corner of the world (verses 9–17).
      
      The tribulation saints will serve their Lord Jesus Christ in the midst of desperate surroundings. Faithful to the end, many of these believers will die for their faith. But in their death, they overcome; “They overcame [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death” (Revelation 12:11). And God will reward them: “He who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes” (Revelation 7:15–17).
      
      https://gotquestions.org/tribulation-saints.html

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         The0NatureBoyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, dianetrotter, but http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy … ter-Twelve reveals how many people will be saved. Revelation 7 reveals a number that no man can number which includes 144,000 Jews - which means chosen - from the tribes os both Ishmael and Israel.  Jesus' 10 virgins parable suggests it will be 10% of the world's 700,000,000,000 population at the time it happens.

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            wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Seems like it would take a miracle from God just to have 10 times the current population living on earth.  Where did that unlikely figure come from?

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               The0NatureBoyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               Read that link, how it happens is there and in those advertised at the end of it, the Bible reveals the "miracle" you called it.

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                  wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Nothing there with anything like that number.  Got another source?

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                     The0NatureBoyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     My error, the earth has 7 billion population, 700 million will be the number of sealed with 250 million the actually number to survive. We all makes boo-boos sometimes, just another one for me.

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                        wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        Got it.  Thank good ness I NEVer myke mastykes@

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                        jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        Just imagine: that 1/4 billion will have nothing left of the civilisation we know today.  They will even have to re-invent the wheel.  Do you think God will make less mistakes in the next reincarnation?

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                           The0NatureBoyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                           After the seven millenniums before Revelation 21's civilization and after the one-at-a-time rapture (Mat. 20:1-16) there will be another 7 billion man on earth who do not procreate (21:4) until the end of the next sixth day of Gen 1.  Since the sun was set in the sky on the fourth day it will be put out during the fourth millennium (Rev 21:23).  The book is about a cycle and not a beginning and end.

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                              jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                              Thank you for sharing your journey of discovery with us.

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                                 The0NatureBoyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                                 Why take such a journey if not to share, thank you for accepting it.

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               dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               Nothing is too hard for God.  I prefer reading passages and researching credible theological sources.

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                  that prophetposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  TIME IS VERY SHORT, + WE ARE LIVING IN THE END TIMES…
                  Why I believe that ISRAEL’S 7 YEAR PEACE TREATY MUST START
                  BEFORE JAN 15, 2019 = http://2020-vision.yolasite.com/ = 1st Door
                  + http://doorschristmustpassthrough.yolasite.com/
                  -
                  Of which, the second half of this duration, is known as the “Great Tribulation”
                  When Satan + all of the fallen angels + their offspring = (aliens + giants)
                  Will be sent to this earth, “woe to ,,, earth and of the sea!” (Rev 12:12)
                  Remember that although we are warned “that day and hour knoweth no man” (Mat 24:36)
                  We are allowed to "know that it is near, even at the doors" (Mat 24:33)
                  Because we are "this generation shall not pass" = (Mat 24:34)
                  -
                  But in the original Greek, we are told that we must know, as in, this is worded more like a command. (Mat 24:33) “know that it is near,” near to what = the door, as we are allowed to know when it’s “even at the doors”. These doors close on the deadlines, or when prophecy can no longer be fulfilled. Or, the day after the last day that that this prophecy can still be fulfilled, + the doors are plural, to accommodate His two arrivals = (Rapture + Glorious Appearance). Where the First Arrival is before the 7 year peace treaty begins + His Second Appearance is immediately after the peace treaty ends.
                  –
                  In (Mat 13:39) it says “the end of the WORLD”
                  Now hold on,,, our world is never going to end,
                  Proof= (Isaiah 45:17) + (Ephesians 3:21) = “world without end”
                  Where it is mistranslated + should I say ”end of the AGE”
                  as in, the age of Christianity, (before True Christians are taken up in the clouds)
                  Or this WORLD SYSTEM,,,,,,,,,,,,
                  -
                  then using 51.6 as the
                  duration for the end time generation,
                  (calculated from 14+14+14 in Mat 1:17)
                  Starting with 1967.44, (when Israel took Jerusalem)
                  As Jerusalem was needed, as it was part of the 70 X 7s
                  -
                  MATH : 1967.44 + 51.6 = 2019.04
                  adding (6.9solar) = the 7 Hebrew year for the Tribulation,
                  then as for the door=deadline for Christ setting His feet on earth,
                  we would get 2025.94 = 2019.04 + 6.9
                  -
                  This way, we are shown both of the doors,
                  So 2020,(2019.04) is the DOOR,,,,,
                  Or should I say, one of the DOORs,
                  And 2026,(2025.94) is the other DOOR,
                  -
                  With so little time left,
                  As of Jan 17th of 2017,,, there is less than two years,,,
                  I would like to work 24/7,
                  But although I have been known to go 3 or 4 days,
                  without any down time,,,
                  I usually have my brain pass out,
                  for two to three hours, every two to three nights,,, lol
                  -
                  Your Bro,
                  . . . . . . . . joe
                  Just one of His Creations:

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                     jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     With beliefs like these you mght as well go live on another planet.
                     Better still, read the Harry Potter books - they are more plausible!

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                        The0NatureBoyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        LOL  Come on, JOHNNY, give him a break.

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                     The0NatureBoyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     The Prophet,
                     Mat. 24:33 is explained by Isa 11:10-12 with Psa 90:10 explaining when.  Israel budded as the fig tree in 1948 and add 80 years makes 2028 the maximum deadline for the "Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord" (Mal 4:5) and "Battle of That Great Day of God Almighty" (Rev 16:14) to end the world. [NOTE: world is not the earth, it means the works of man upon the earth] However, because Ecc 1:9 say "there is nothing new under the sun" this world de-manifests for about 98,000 years [http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Bibles-Cycle] for Revelation 21's world to manifest for 84,000 years so it could be said "the world without end" but as different manifestations.
                     
                     Mat 1:17's 14+14+14 are thousands of years, meaning from the Abraham concept to the termination of the world at the coming of Isa 11:10-12 messiah, NOT the "Rod" of Isa 11:1 the boy called Jesus was, will be 42,000 years, 21,000 for Africans time of ruling and 21,000 for Europeans to end the world as white snow ends the growing year. Take that same 42,000 years from Abraham to Adam and we get the length of this material world of 84,000 years for the Asians [Adam & Noah] and Natives of the Americas [Cain & Jepheth] to Africans [Ham & Esau] and finally Europeans [Shem & Jacob].
                     
                     Before the 84,000 years of this world can end "the prophet like unto Moses" and second messiah [http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Prophet-Like-Moses] has to lead "spiritual Israel" into their safe-haven of Armageddon. That can not be done until he has ruled in the highest mountain (Isa. 2:2-4) of Judah (Gen 49:1 & 8-12 & Mic 5:2) or USA to allow the 5 wise virgins to be "called out of the world" and develop their "dominion powers" (Gen 1:27) to survive civilization's end.
                     
                     Should the prophet like Moses enter "his temple" of the White House" this year then we can expect World War 1 to began somewhere around 2020 to last no longer than the years 2028.
                     
                     Peace

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               jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               The American version of a Billion equals 1,000,000,000.  In other words, one thousand million.  Whereas the English version of a Billion equals 1,000,000,000,000.  In other words, one million million.
               
               So, the world's population right now would be more accurately stated as 7,000,000,000.

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                  Live to Learnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  That changed in 1975.
                  
                  Chop Chop. Do try to keep up.

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                     jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     So sorry you think I might be a bit backward.  What changed?  Please explain and enlighten us.

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                        Live to Learnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        As an American, I am probably not in a position you would consider authority. So I looked up the question and here is a link.
                        https://www.theguardian.com/notesandque … 24,00.html

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                           jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                           Thank you.  Also from that we read "...Mrs Thatcher finally flogged our dignity off to America...."  Oh well, we can't have everything our own way.  So be it.

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                              Live to Learnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                              Well, you guys may simply be more accommodating.

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                              wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                              Now if you could just learn to spell properly!  "Colour", indeed!

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                  The0NatureBoyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  That was what I intended to put, forgive my error.

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                     jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     With great respect, no problems at all, Sir.

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               The0NatureBoyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               Sorry, wilderness, I added 2 to many zeros.

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            dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I read it TheO.  Your conclusions are heresy.  I pray the Lord will lead you to clarity.

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               The0NatureBoyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               Just like Yoshua called Jesus' conclusions were believed heresy by the devout religious so I would expect it from them during our day, it doesn't change the truth of what I wrote.  Anyway, if you only read that one without reading those below it you may come to such conclusion, that is why they are included there.

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            jonnycomelatelyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            To my way of thinking, it's perfectly obvious that the world's over-population with our species is brought about by excessive activity in the reproductive department.  Too much heterosexual activity to be precise.   Couple that with the modern aversion to allowing death and demise to happen freely, and that 7^12 could become an unfortunate reality.
            
            In order to retain the pair-bonding and recreational properties of intimate connection, yet without the inherent addition of more hungry mouths, I suggest the adoption of homosexual partnerships instead.  Heterosexual partners are still fine, the licence for producing children to be reserved for couples who have done a Relinquishment of Bachelorship degree course, with a follow-up course on the Ethical Rearing of Children; the latter requiring annual refresher weekends for the first 15 years while children are in their care.
            
            This will ensure our world remains viable for at least the next two millenia.  Beyond that perhaps some other God will make a takeover bid, then come in and make some sweeping changes for the better.

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               The0NatureBoyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               It is not that the earth is overpopulated with man but that man do not live ecologically by getting excess and using only a fraction of what we get from the eco system. Also, because man are afraid of many life types and kill them without cause disturbed the eco system is misusing life without a cause or need. 
               
               Because man changed the definition of "dominion" from "exceed the ability of" into to "rule over" our ignorance makes us think we can use the earth and the multitude of life types at our will without harming the earth's balance. The idiot we man are!!!! 
               
               Many life types reduce they litter size when they see there is not enough food, not man, we want go overuse that much the more or we attempt to cause them to overproduce. Like i said, idiots we are.

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   Ralph Beallposted 13 years ago

   How many were saved in the Noahic Flood?  Jesus sai that narrow is the way and few there be that find it. Even a small percentage of all those who have lived since creation could be a very large number.
   Ralph Beeal

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      qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Ralph:
      "jesus" did not say that!

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         Tris-Stockposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I am afraid he did. Mat 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

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            SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            So much for a total victory of the cross according to your belief.

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   lionswhelpposted 13 years ago

   Well It is said in Isaiah 6:13 and Isaiah 10:22 that tenth shall or remnant will be saved out of the remaining Israelites. There is said to be about 600 milion or more Christians on the earth today, Revelation 7:9. One tenth would be from 60-70 million alive. Revelation 7:18 says there will be a 144,000 sealed during the Millenium during this time as part of the Tribes of Israel. How many others is not clear. There could be more since Revelation 3:7-13 doesn't say that these are the 144,000 but the Philadelphia Church of God which cross references with Revelation 12:6,14.Jesus Christ will gather both those dead and still alive at his return in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. It is not clear how many Christians will be saved but we know a remnant of Israel will be saved which may not be Christians yet, Romans 9:27. God knows the number. Your guess is as good as mine.

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   lionswhelpposted 13 years ago

   The first harvest of souls will be smaller harvest on the Feast of Trumpets or Feast of Ingathering, Leviticus 23:24, Exodus 34:22; 23:16. There will be a second greater harvest at the end of the Millenium when Satan has been finally put away, Revelation 20:11-15, John 7:37-38, Leviticus 23:36 - pictured as the Last Great Day. I hope this helps you?

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   Paul Wingertposted 13 years ago

   LMOA! It's pathetic how so many people in this country still believe in this "saved" garbage, world wide flood, lush gardens inhabited by a talking snake - basically and take the Bible literally! This is one of the many reasons why the United States isn't "Number One".

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      Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Paul
      
      What's your idea of- number 1?
      
      USA has the world's biggest economy and by far in terms of spending and power the worlds strongest army, the most powerful democracy, and the media centre of the world, plus in many ways the centre of world diplomacy and foreign relations. This easily makes the USA the worlds most powerful country.

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   Jason Nicholssposted 11 years ago

   I don't mean any harm but I should say STOP worrying about how many are going to die and how many will live. We already passed 2 or 3 "supposedly believed to be" end of the world day or which can be also called the Dooms day, The recent being on 21 December 2012.
   
   I am sick and tired of this false claims and stuff, So I decided to forget all and everything and live my life to the fullest no matter what. The main thing is have fun and live today like it is your Big Day because no one knows what will happen when. Keep smiling! Cheers!

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   Jeramiposted 11 years ago

   Jason  I'm with Ya.  The way I understand what I'm reading, taking just a little bit of misinterpretation into account, I do not believe that the book says that the world will end.

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      Jason Nicholssposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Exactly! And first of all god made this universe not humans. When everything was even ready, Humans were not around at that time to observe anything. After thousands and thousands of years later, The first species started to evolve on so called planet earth. I believe that humans evolved from apes and I do not believe the story of Adam and eve because I personally I think its weird that they were just born from nothing.
      
      Anyway, My point is Why are we even trusting a book that says stuff that people who had written them, Themselves weren't present at that time to observe or record the event as it was happening. So technically I believe some parts are pure fiction. Well, As I said above, Who knows what will happen next! Every beginning has an end and even the Mayan's were wrong! We already passed our doomsday without any single casualty or mishap. So what I want to say is forget the book and everything. Get out of there into the real world and live life! Do something cause when you do something you can achieve something and be someone.
      
      Don't waste your time reading stuff that you yourself are not sure about if it will happen or not. Only time will tell.

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   Jeramiposted 11 years ago

   Jason,  This is just how I understand how it went.
   It is written that God walked and talked with Adam and Enoch. It would stand to reason that Adam and Enoch shared much of the information they received from God with their family.
   According to the generations of Adam; only Adam and Seth had died before Noah was born. So according to scripture it is possible that Noah heard these stories directly from Enoch.
   It is written that Moses was born shortly after Noah died. These stories would then be third handed by the time Moses is said to have written them down.  If we are to believe these stories we must remember that they were told as best as Adam and Enoch could understand them and communicate that to those he told them to. 
     That being said, …  God told the story only to the degree that Adam and Enoch “Needed” to know; or could understand and they retold it to the best of their ability.  And after it was originally written was it necessary to be copied on “new” paper.
        All of this was taken to Babylon in 605 BC.  About 450 BC Ezra was instructed to reconstruct these documents to the best of his ability. These are what the Hebrew faith was and is based upon.

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   Jeramiposted 11 years ago

   The way I understand Rev. 6:9 -11 is that Immediately after the first four horsemen have been sent out, those that had been slain for their testimony … notice that nothing is said about not worshiping the beast? This is because the Beast has not risen yet.  Those dead folks are asking how much longer until that which was foretold in Daniel 12:1 is to come to pass.  They are told that it will be a “Little Season”!
   Then the sixth seal is opened and when the seventh seal is opened. At this time the “Rapture” takes place.   After the seventh seal is opened There is a passage of time which passes before the trumpets are handed out.   THIS PASSAGE OF TIME which takes place after the seals are opened until the trumpet judgments are given to the seven angels IS VERY IMPORTANT in understanding the book of Rev.
   It is after an undetermined length of time passes after the 7th seal is opened that the “Beast” rises up out of the sea as described in C. 13.  A length of time passes again until the second beast rises up out of the land.   There is another passage of time before those events mentioned in C14 take place.  Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.   This would have to be after the first resurrection and Rapture for these are said to be the first fruits unto the Lord.        These events happen at the same time as those described chapter 20.
   If we notice the last seven judgments (Bowl/Vial) have not been given to the last seven angels.
   Another thing to pay close attention to is that Satan gives his power to the Beast that rises up out of the sea.  Satan spends 1000 years in the pit.  When he comes out He, the beast and false prophet are seen when the sixth bowl is poured out.   This would mean that the 42 months that the beast is given is a greater length of time than 1000 years.
   Many people say that we can privately interpret scripture and maybe this is true, but we are NOT supposed to apply private interpretation to prophesy of scripture.
   Just think about these facts which I mentioned above. Those things ARE what is written in prophesy.

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    Jeramiposted 11 years ago

    I would like to hear any inteligent arguement against my statements listed in the above post.
    I could be wrong, but I believe that anyone that accepts that this is what is written  has taken their first step in rejecting the futuristists view of Revelation
         The seal judgments are all fulfilled within their own time period ...and then ... the next sequents of events are prophesied to take place within their 0wn time frame.  Except for the seventh trumpet.
      AND THEN ......?    The events described in the book of Rev. ARE events described as being played out Chronologically. 
      otherwise HOW could All of That Stuff fall upon the earth within 3 1/2 of our years?    You wouldn't know when one judgment began and another ended. There would be no purpose!

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    Jeramiposted 11 years ago

    If we can’t understand this we wont understand any of the rest of it as it was intended.   ...
    concerning the chronological order of the prophesy set forth in the book of Revelation.                       
    
    I think it goes like this, according to the NT; Jesus died on the cross either in 26, 30, or 33 AD
    Sixty something  Years later,  in the book of Rev. Jesus is seen when he arrives into the kingdom of Heaven looking like a bloody lamb as if it had “Just” been slain.  He wasn’t there just moments before as they were looking for anyone worthy to take the book to open it.     They found no one ... and John cried.   How many times did Jesus enter the kingdom looking like a bloody lamb looking as if it had just been killed?
    AND  THEN suddenly there he was!  And he immediately took the book and began opening the seals upon it.   The four horsemen (that day) was sent to the earth (Israel) and those plagues began their fulfillment.  When the fifth seal was opened, those UNDER the alter were told they had to wait yet for a “little” (less than)  season ….  (less than 119 years).  This happen immediately upon his arival in heaven     and he hadn't even wiped his blook off his face  YET.
       Much later  When the seventh seal was opened there is described a division of time and space between THOSE judgments (inflicted upon the Nation of Israel) and those that are said to follow.
    If we can not understand this  we shouldn’t even begin discussing the prophesy concerning  …..           “The End of Days”
    It’s like a treasure hunt!   When we get the first clue wrong, we don’t even find the second one. But if we use enough of our interpreting skills ….   We can make anything “seem” to work.                                       But we won’t find the treasure.

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       johnsonricketyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       It says not to predict the "End of Times" in the Bible.  It says anyone who tries to predict this day is a fool for nobody knows but the Father.  Jesus did not even know when the end of times would come, only the Father which is God knew.  I do not know how old the earth is or when it will come to an end.  This is for God to decide.  When the time comes it will be of perfect timing because God's timing is always perfect.  Time means nothing in this world, we should not try and decipher how long time is compared to God's time.  Many prophecies have been fulfilled already from the Bible.  The teachings in the bible can be deciphered privately.  I believe that this is why Jesus spoke in parables.  Only the people that truly believed in Jesus could understand what he meant.  It's the same throughout the bible.  If you are trying to decipher the Bibles words and meanings and you are seeking God, then he will speak to you through his word.

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          The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Johnson Rickety,
          You didn't read that correctly.  Mark 13 doesn't specify "what no one knows the coming of," even the son of man, while Matthew 24 makes it clear that it's the coming of the son of man he doesn't even know when he will "suddenly come into his temple," per Malachi 3:1. 
          
          As for the end of the world Jesus gave us "the parable of the fig tree" to learn when how to determine it in Matthew 24, Mark 13 doesn't specify what.  That fig tree parable the christ produced when he and his disciples were entering Jerusalem during the 6 days prior to his going to the cross, he found no fruit on a fig tree {symbol of Israel} and decreed no man shall eat from it ever again.  Then, on his way up Calvary's hill he told the weeping girls to weep for their children and their children and some 40 years later Jerusalem was destroyed.  When Israel begin to reestablish Jerusalem as their worshiping place, 1948, {see Isaiah 11:10-12} then branch from the root of Jesse christ, an ensign to the gentiles, will appear as Israel is restored the second time.  Psalm 90:10 suggest the life expectancy of man is 80 years maximum, meaning before civilization is destroyed before 80 years are over.
          
          It will be sometime during those 80 years the christ "who we seek" shall suddenly come into his temple to usher in world peace (Isaiah 2:2-3) to be followed by the tribulation (Isaiah 7:17-22, Matthew 24 & Mark 13).  Everything is scriptural except when the one whom wee seek shall enter into his temple, what we need is become "born again" so spirit can reveal that to us Isaiah 28:9).
          
          Elijah, aka, The0NatureBoy

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    Jeramiposted 11 years ago

    It says not to predict the "End of Times" in the Bible.  It says anyone who tries to predict this day is a fool for nobody knows but the Father. "It says not to predict the "End of Times" in the Bible.  It says anyone who tries to predict this day is a fool for nobody knows but the Father.                                                                                                                               = - = -                                                                                                                                                                  me         Where does the bible say this?
    =======================================
    Jesus did not even know when the end of times would come, only the Father which is God knew. 
    = - = -     me ..  Jesus said that he did not know the Day or hour. This does NOT say he did not know the month year or century!   CAUSE .. He did say that
    =======================================
    Jesus did not even know when the end of times would come, only the Father which is God knew. 
    = - = -       me ..    Jesus said that he did not know the day or hour. This does NOT say he did not know the month year or century!   CAUSE ..   He did say "THIS generation shall not pass till all of these things be fulfilled” … All these things which he spoke of in this conversation.
    ===================================================
    Time means nothing in this world, we should not try and decipher how long time is compared to God's time. 
    = - = -     me ... Why not?  If we are not supposed to understand prophesy and the timeframe contained within (?) then why were they given to us?
    ======================================
    Many prophecies have been fulfilled already from the Bible.
    = - = -        me          I agree.  I believe they have all been fulfilled except for the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl judgments.
    ==================================
    The teachings in the bible can be deciphered privately.  I believe that this is why Jesus spoke in parables.  Only the people that truly believed in Jesus could understand what he meant.  It's the same throughout the bible.  If you are trying to decipher the Bibles words and meanings and you are seeking God, then he will speak to you through his word."
    = - = - =
        me  ..  My thoughts are, that Jesus was telling the truth when he said This Generation Shall Not Pass till ALL These Things be fulfilled, AND when this is accepted …  there is little left that needs deciphered.

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    psycheskinnerposted 10 years ago

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144000_%28number%29

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    Jeramiposted 10 years ago

    Good evening ....   Not been able to get on line till now.
    Pretty sure I'm not a Futurists.
    Haven't been studying Prophesy much lately ..I did spend over a decade emphatically attempting to find out what scriptures really say in them.   I had so many preconceived ideas or should I say; SOoo many interpretations of what they said that I was unable to see that which was actually written.
    Sometimes we read between the lines too much. Sometimes maybe Not.  ?? 
    In Daniel 7:16 ; .... One of the angels told Daniel the interpretation. I don't think anyone can interpret the vision better than this angel.    And I don't think we are qualified to interpret his interpretation?
       V 23  THE Fourth Beast Shall be The FOURTH kingdom upon the earth...
    In chapter 8 the second and third kingdoms are identified as Persia and Greece. There is only one second kingdom and only one third kingdom, and it stands to reason there can be only one fourth kingdom and that was the Roman Empire.
    
    Some people might say the fourth kingdom can not be the Roman Empire because it had dozens and dozens of Emperors (kings), while this fourth kingdom Daniel sees only has ten and then the eleventh king replaces three of these ten.   BUT that isn't what it says!     
         V 8:24 ... each one of these horns represent one king which comes up in the fourth kingdom. The little horn comes up  AFTER  these first ten. This word after is a very importand word in this story.  ... How long after the first ten does he rise to power ???   Does he replace three kings after the first ten ?  I think that is what it says.
      Though he wasn't king yet, Titus, the tenth king of the Roman Empire is who lead the army and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.  And then there was three emperors and then Hadrian became the last Emperor of Rome to have dominion over the Promised land.
    The End of The world came for that Hebrew Nation.
    It can be said that Hadrian stomped that Nation to pieces and scattered it to the four winds.(to the four corners of the earth).
    
    If we have any desire to do so; we can easily see how Hadrian filled all of the criteria of the "Little Horn."
    
      I don't feel that I have applied any personal interpretation of any aspect of what is written in scripture with the way I have presented my views concerning prophesy. When I came to this understanding (right or wrong), a countless number of my Questions just seemed to vanish.
    
    IMO  terms such as
    "The end of Days" are either misinterpreted and or poorly translated to mean something other than their true meaning.

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       Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Shabath shalum. I thought you had mentioned you were a futurist in a former thread. Doesn't really matter. For 40yrs ending in 2000, if you had asked me, I would have considered myself a christian. I have learned more about the 'church' in the last 2yrs on HP than in all that time Futurists, apologetics, preterists, etc. Wow. Where did it all come from? Anyway, I don't believe I changed the angels interpertation of Daniel's vision. The 4th kingdom is the Roman Empire in total. If you continue reading vs.18 on, there may be a chance you'll see the 2 different aspects I mentioned. Verse 23 shows how particularly the little horn demands more attention. Here again, just another opinion. I see 70 A.D. as the beginning of the curses in Lev.26:14-45 and Duet.28:15-68 for the Hebrews. The end of that 'world' and the start of a new one. Well, actually not so new. The folks you speak of just fulfilling their role in prophecy. But, here again, mho. Jews, Hebrews, Israelites??

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          Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Shabath shalum back atcha
          First allow me to mention that the following is just my opinion
          When reading these verses ( Lev.26:14-45 and Duet.28:15-68 ) it came to mind that this is what God was referring to when  the Children of Daniels people was given 70 weeks to quit sinning and make restitution etc. and to Anoint The Most holy!   Well, ... they didn't do it. They not only didn't anoint the most Holy,  they killed him!   So these things which God had threatened in these statements in Lev. and Deut.  were sure to be carried out upon those people. 
          These things which God had promised would happen did begin almost immediately after the crucifixion.   I believe this because when we read Rev. 5: 4 through 7.  the strong angel proclaimed with a loud voice, who is worthy to open the book and loose the seals"?  And nobody was found in heaven or in the earth who was worthy!  Jesus wasn't in heaven or earth at that moment.
          But, just moments later, as soon as he did arrive in heaven, he took the book and immediately began opening the seals.  Where was Jesus moments before ? he wasn't in heaven or earth. This to me, symbolizes that Jesus must have been in route between heaven and earth, and as soon as he arrived in heaven, he opened the first four seals which brings about the beginning of those things which God promised would happen if they failed to obey Gods mandates. 
          Just over 100 years pass before the last of these threats was finalized. The scattering of his people through out the rest of the known world just as foretold in the verses you pointed to in Lev. and Deut.
               Why do you think that when the seventh seal was opened, ....  nothing happens except that there was silence in heaven for a period of time?  One thing for sure...  this clearly signifies a separation between these events depicted by the opening of the seven seals and those said to happen when the seven trumpets are sounded.  The seals are opened  AND THEN a period of time passes AND THEN the trumpets are handed out.
          A chronological order of events are depicted. This theme is shown to exist through out the book of Rev.
              I think the first trumpet was sounded in 538 AD with the eruption of Mt Krakatoa.  This set motion a series of events which brings about the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. There was a Mini Ice Age which affected the entire planet. Crop failures, starvation, pestilence and disease.  The Justinian plague is said to have killed about half of the population of the Western Roman Empire.  This weakened the Empire drastically making it susceptible for foreign invasion.                                                          The fifth angel sounding his trumpet, describes the Turkish invasion.
          
               Six trumpets are sounded ....  time passes .... then the bowl judgments are handed out.
          We then have the Bubonic Plague breaking out in the 13 century .

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             Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this

             Shabath shalum. Wow, a lot to cover. Sorry, been away for a few days and then had taxes to deal with on my return. The last couple of days been reading your post. Interesting. In Rev.5:5-7 actually shows the Mashyach to be in heaven.He is called the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the Root of David. Why called a lion? It is probably to denote His strength. As the lion is the king of beasts, the monarch of the forest, he thus becomes a fit emblem of kingly authority and power. As to the "tribe of Judah," He doubtless receives this appellation from the prophecy in Gen.49:9,10. Yahusha was the source and sustainer of David in his position and power. That David's position was specially ordained of Yahusha, and that he was specially sustained by Him, there can be no doubt. David was the type, Yahusha was the antitype. David's throne and reign over Israel was a type of Yahusha's reign over His people.He shall reign upon "the throne of David" (Lk.1:32,33; Isa.11:1,10; Rev.22:16.)  His connection with the throne of David being thus set forth, and His right thus shown to rule over the people of Yahuah, there was a propriety in entrusting to Him the opening of the seals. "Hath prevailed" these words indicate that the right to open the book was acquired by a victory gained in some previous conflict The next scene introduces us to the great work of Yahusha as the Redeemer, and the shedding of His blood for the remission of sin and the salvation of mankind. In this work He was sobjected to the fiercest assaults of satan. But He endured temptation, bore the pain of the pole, rose a victor over death and the grave, made the way for redeemption sure. Therefore the four living beings and the 24 elders sing "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof...."In the midst of the throne" there stood a Lamb. In the center of the scene was the throne of the Father, and standing in the open space which surrounded it was the Son, set forth under the symbol of a slain lamb. Around these stood those saints who had been redeemed: first, those represented by the 4 living creatures, then the elders forming the 2nd circle, and the angels(vs11) forming a 3rd circle. The worthiness of Yahusha as He stands forth under the figure of a slain lamb, is the admiration of all present. "As it had been slain" the Grk implies that the Lamb appeared with a wounded neck and throat, as if struck at the altar as a victim. "This is very remarkable; so important is the sacrificial offering of Yahusha in the sight of Yahuah, that He is still represented as being in the very act of pouring out His blood for the Offenses of man". "Seven horns and seven eyes" Horns are symbols of power and eyes typify wisdom. Seven is a # denoting completeness, perfection. We are thus taught that perfect power and perfect wisdom inhere in the Lamb. "He came and took the book" Some have found an incongruity in the idea that the book was taken by the Lamb. and have had recourse to several expedients to avoid the difficulty. But is it not a well established principle that any action which could be performed by the person or being represented by a symbol, may be attributed to the symbol?Is this not all the explanation that the passage needs? The Lamb, we know, is the symbol of Yahusha. We know there is nothing incongruous in His taking of a book, and when we read that the book was taken, we think of the action, not as performed by a lamb, but by the one of whom the lamb is the symbol. Quickly, the last of the curses (Lev.&Deut.) did not take place until 1619. Also quickly. The description of the 1st plague clearly reveals at once the time when it shall fall upon the earth, for it is poured out upon those who have the mark of the beast, and who worship his image. The very work against which the 3rd angel warns us. If these plagues are in the past, the image of the beast and his worship are in the past. If these are in the past, the 2-horned beast, which makes his image, and all his work, are in the past. If these are in the past, then the 3rd angels message, which warns us in reference to this work, is in the past: and if this is ages in the past, then the 1st and 2nd angels messages which precede it were ages in the past. Then the prophetic periods, on which the messages are based, especially the 2300 days, ended ages ago. If this is so, the 70 wks of Dan.9 are thrown wholly into the Hebrew period, and the great messiahship of Yahusha is destroyed. I don't believe this has happened yet. It has been shown in remarks on Rev.7,13,14, that the 1st and 2nd messages have been given in our own day: that the 3rd is now in process of accomplishment; that the 2-horned beast has come upon the stage of action, and is preparing to do the work assigned him; and the formation of the image and the enforcement of the worship are just in the future. Unless all these positions can be overthrown, the last 7 plagues must remain solely in the future. I have come across some info that the ss# is the mark, a very interesting read. Soon as I can recover the site, will pass it on. None of the other 6 plagues fit the bubonic disaster. Tired? Goodnite Jerami

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                aka-djposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Please try to use paragraphs.
                This is way too off-putting to read.

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                   Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                   Sorry. I know my formatting needs work. Haven't got around to asking my grands or my kids to show me how. But if there is anything I write that you need help in gaining a more clear view, don't hesitate to ask

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                      aka-djposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                      When you finish one thought, hit the "return" key, once, or maybe twice.
                      
                      That will give you a break like I just made.
                      
                      If you make a mistake, hit the "backspace" key.

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                         Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                         Thank you.
                         I will try and break
                         
                         that old habit

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    Jeramiposted 10 years ago

    HOWDY  Robertr04  ...    was going to bed myself when I saw this  A lot to go through.   Concerning the time frames. I feel that every timeline in prophesy should be seen in a consistent evaluation value.
      And if the beast which rises up out of the sea is the RCC, the second beast with two horns would have to represent Mohamed. And the two horns ???  When Mohamed  died, his governmental type base was divided into two factions, Half of his followers chose to follow his son and the other half followed his best friend and confidant who happened to be his second in command. Though slightly different, he two horns on this beast can be seen in the same light as the four horns which replaced the great horn in Daniel 8.
       I read someplace that Islam wasn't actually established until after Mohamed's death. The Sheiks and Suni were both established from the birth of the Islamic faith who both followed  Mohamed's teachings ...  or something like that.??
    If a day in prophesy is as a day in prophesy ... this idea doesn't work.    But ...  If 62 weeks in prophesy is 568 years ??   my theory is still plausible. 
      My whole theory is based upon 62 weeks in prophesy being equal to 568 years. And this equation remains constant. through out prophesy when a reference of a time period is stated.   I have been able to find any reason to disbelieve this timeline comparison though I search for one for over a decade. 42 months in prophesy is a really long time in our time. About 1645 years in fact.   Just for fun ...  consider what was going on 1645 years ago?   just my opinion.
       will ck back tomorrow for a little while. 
    Shabath shalum.

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    Jeramiposted 10 years ago

    Shabath shalum.  Robert
    
    This has little to nothing to do with our conversation but I'll tell it anyway.  About 40 years ago I was a recording secretary on the grievance committee for this Workers Union in Michigan.
    Point being, I had to teach the union stewards how to write grievance's; to keep them as short as possible while including all of the pertinent information.  I learned how to read very long statements of facts while only focusing upon  The Important Stuff.    The facts that were relevant to the case.  Sometimes eliminating 95% of the adjectives and adverbs.  Making a long story short otherwise, everyone would get distracted from the real point in question.   
       Example ....  when in the hospital emergency room , ...  all the doctor wants to know is  someone ran over my foot with a car.  Talking to a police officer, the fact the driver of the car was a well endowed female wearing a red halter top, and black shoes, etc. etc. etc. etc .....and the license plate was   kx ooo1.   All that was necessary is a woman driving a car with this license # ran over my foot. Doesn't really matter how loud she was playing the radio.
    Sometimes we get lost in thought when reading scripture because we pay too much attention to too many of the smaller details.
    
        When I read scripture I automatically and subconsciously diagram the sentence, finding the main subject, verb and direct object, and then include those other adverbs and adjectives which seems to bring the main subject matter into clearer focus.  The rest is just a distraction.
    
       All I see in the earlier story is that one minute Jesus was not in heaver or on /under earth or sea and John wept. If he wasn't at the before mentioned places,  where was he, he had to be somewhere in between?  And when he got to heaven he was still bloody as if he had just been slain.
    And he immediately opens the first five seals.
    He is found worthy to take the book IMO because he has just finished sacrificing himself. And he JUST  THEN  arrived and claimed his prize.   This would indicate he began the process of opening the seals as soon upon arrival after being crucified. I would then consider every adverb and adjective which brings more clarity to the conclusion I've made if they bring more clarity or they contradict the conclusion already derived.   I try to understand first in its simplicity and then ad bits and pieces of evidence into my understanding until it seems to be complete.
         And sometimes I'm still wrong.  But I know I have tried my best.

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       Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Yeah, I understand Jerami. All we can do is try our best. I may have to read scriptures over many times and compare what I see and what others see before reaching a conclusion. Still doesn't mean I'm right. Folks see things differently. Shalum

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          Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          How come I just now saw this reply.    Sometimes I think I'm in some kind of time warp. ...ha ha

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             Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this

             If you're in a different time Jerami, I'm enjoying being there with you

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                Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                I'm in an extremly good mood tonight.

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    Live to Learnposted 7 years ago

    How many will be saved? 62.458. I'm confused on the.458 but I suppose the Almighty knows what he's doing. It could be a short midget or a kid.

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       dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

       The problem is people say things that are not based on any research.  It makes it easy for people to discount anything the person says.  Unfortunately, it causes many people to have a negative view of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

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          Live to Learnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Diane, I'm a Christian. A follower of Jesus Christ. I'm afraid this 'personal relationship' stuff is something I have a negative opinion of. Through research. This does not, in any way, negate my devotion to our Lord.
          
          Anyway, I think you all put too much emphasis on figuring stuff like that out. I believe all will be with God in the end. Not just some random figure anyone comes up with through 'research'

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             dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

             Live, it could just be terminology that I am using.
             
             My point is that the relationship is not based on anything outside of you and Jesus.  It's not about going to church or being religious.  God doesn't force us and wants us to love Him of our own free will.
             
             If we could do less pointing the finger at others and find out what God wants "me" to do, we will be more effective.
             
             I'm glad you are a Christian!

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    Oztinatoposted 7 years ago

    The English spell colour with a "u".
    The American spelling is color.
    Technically speaking the English spelling is correct for obvious reasons ie it's English!

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    PhilipEspejoposted 6 years ago

    God only know how many will be saved, and God only knows when he is sending his son Jesus to save us, one thing for sure my brothers and sisters, judgment day is near!!!!! God bless and stay strong in faith with Jesus, until the end!!!!

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       jonnycomelatelyposted 6 years agoin reply to this

       I shall re-read those Harry Potter books, thank you Philip. 
       
       Two benefits of getting older:  1. we get to filter out what is irrelevant, 2. We forget how story books go and can read them again with refreshed enjoyment.
       
       You might find them a good read, too.  Full of factual revelation.

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