A spiritual reality may exist but Jesus the son of god? I think not.
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/69470?p … ost1521642
I agree with Jefsaid.
'son of G-d" is a metaphor for hero. it comes from greek interpretation confusing "sons of god", the expression jews used to belittle sorcerers.
But metaphors don't make one a physical son of god which the Christians, courtesy Paul and the Church believe.
The Christians must reform out of their own free will.
I would say the same for many religious people, while single out one. The fact is, there is a need to evolve the way we understand our heritage and the icons of our beliefs. We need to get deeper into awareness of what they mean. All of us would benefit from it. Not just one group in particular.
Yes, the Christians and others including the atheists agnostics need to reform.
I would say, humanity is at a critical point in our consciousness that WE CAN understand, but alas choose not to. one step at a time, one individual at a time.
Please express yourself fully and freely;kindly elaborate more.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
There are 7 billion people in the planet all connected by the internet. We have extended beyond our biological resources to amass more information about who we are and where we came from. We can make the connections. but we do not. We do choose not to. We are not asking the right questions.
I agree that by making use of the internet ; human beigns should come closer to one another with peaceful dialogue and accepting the Truth.
Jesus son Of God.. thats unbelievable...?
Then hear this
I am the son of God only begotten just as He is...
If jesus is son of god we are also sons and daughters of god
We are are all children of God by virtue of creation, but only those Born Agin, are children of God through Jesus Christ.
Still fighting for Jesus I see dj. Well done of being better than everyone else by being Born Agin.
I feel sure Jesus would be turning in his grave - if he had had one.
"Fightin"? No no no! Educating!
For someone SSOO bent on accurate use of words, you disappoint me.
Fight ing means something rather different. Don't you think?
But SSSOOO glad you agree that Jesus does not have a grave. I LOVE that. I DO!!!
BTW, I'm not better, just glad to have received what was freely on offer! If others choose to reject it, I can't help that.
I am keen on the accurate use of words and I think you mean "indoctrinate" rather than "educate" dj. Little wonder your religion causes so many fights.
Of course Jesus doesn't have a grave. He never existed. Dear me.
I can't indoctrinate, can I?
All I'm doing is posting to a forum.
Are you also indoctrinating people about your "faith"?
No, Jesus is RISEN from the grave, that's why He doesn't have one.
Sorry that this truth makes you angry, and want to fight!
Ah yes - I see what you mean. It is the people who refuse to listen to your truth that are starting the fight.
I see how that works.
This is why your religion always causes conflict dj. You want to "educate" me and indoctrinate me into your majik cult. I don't want that, and say so - therefore I am starting a fight.
Would you be angry if a religious cult spent this much effort trying to indoctrinate you into the Star Goat Cult? Shouted at you that the Star Goat VOMITED the UNIVERSE!! and then told you they were sorry this truth made you want to fight?
You don't see the error in your own argument, do you?
I wrote a response to another person's comment. You "cut in" and use words incorrectly, trying to start something with me, and then you blame me for starting it! SSSOOO weird, that?
But, because you are a totally righteous person, have no sin, make no mistakes, I MUST be the one in the wrong.
Yep, I think I get it, too now.
Nice to see you still resort to "cut & paste" techniques for your replies. Saves time, yes?
PS, I see you added the "Star Goat" argument since I started to reply. Please tell me all about it!
Dear me. I have cut and pasted nothing dj.
No - I get it - me not wanting to accept your truth is what causes the fight.
Me - Got it. Thanks.
I sure will dj. We are going to spend the next 2,000 years murdering people who do not accept the Truth of the Star Goat first though. This is how to spread a religion dj. Don't you read any history books?
So, in theory, you like the approach of history. You want to perpetuate the killing first, to establish the Star Goat religion.
Ok, well, when it's time for me to recant my faith in Jesus Christ, I will not, so the Star Goat "wins", and I l"loose".
You see, history tells us where we have been/come from. The future is yet to be lived. I don't want war nor killing!
I am also most happy to tolerate(?) -love-you atheists. If there is going to be killings, it will come from your camp, NOT mine. (That's if it was up to ME. Which, of course it's not.)
Gosh. So - you think the fact that Christians spreading their religion caused 2,000 years of conflicts is worth ignoring? And you continue spreading it and causing conflicts? And this is learning from the past?
You do not love me. If you loved me - you would listen to what I am saying instead of still spreading this nonsense.
I answered you, before you even replied.
Here it is again;
"You see, history tells us where we have been/come from. The future is yet to be lived. I don't want war nor killing!
I am also most happy to tolerate(?) -love-you atheists. If there is going to be killings, it will come from your camp, NOT mine. (That's if it was up to ME. Which, of course it's not.)"
aka-dj, Once again, you have been attacked. Seems like someone have started a war with you. May the force be with you.
risen and vanished...so those who dont have grave like sherlock holmes , they too existed...come on aka , stories are meant to inspire not to be literal follower...christ was weakest stories in the league and needed to "rise" effect...other prophets/god mans/gods were all powerful and did not need to rise since they were accepted and respected without needing to die at first place...they didnt need special effects because their life time was special enough ...
I'm glad you have made your choice on what you "believe"! Seriously!
I once doubted, but had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ, and my "opinion" changed.
It's wonderful that we can share on a forum such as this. Your position does not threaten me one little bit, unlike so many who seem threatened by mine. or should I ? Oh well, whichever seems appropriate.
So - after 2,000 years of Christians threatening people - and you now apparently understand that people feel threatened by your irrational beliefs - which most of us find offensive and they actually frighten children - why keep spreading it?
So, you then feel threatened by me/my message?
That kinda surprises me!
Yes - I am sure it does surprise you. Much more important that you keep causing the fights huh? No - I am not threatened any more. I was as a child. I was fairly certain you would not understand - or care.
Are you a bar-brawler?
Do you fight with your card playing buddies?
Why do you always bring this crap up?
It is much nicer "talking" with you without such language.
I do care about what you suffered as a kid, but I can't change that.
I had my share of bad things in my upbringing too, but I also grew up, and got on with my life. Why should that derail my future? I am more in control now than I was then. So are you.
What happened was not your fault, nor was mine, mine.
Today is a new day! Tomorrow is up to us, not "them"!
I am simply learning from the past dj. Your religion causes conflicts. It has done since day one and continues to do so. It is irrational nonsense and a threat is implicit.
Yet you insist it does not cause fights and you stand and fight about it and accuse me of causing the fight by not accepting your truth. Effectively ignoring the past. Why?
I see this conversation is not going anywhere, as usual! I might as well "take my bat and ball and go home"!
I have answered your questions and responded to your arguments, but you either don't get it, or, more likely, don't want to get it.
You talk about the past, I'm talking about the present.
You talk about what religion DID, I talk about what/who I am.
This obviously is not what you want to hear.
You are causing a fight now. Today. As is your religion. You. Now. Today. I find your beliefs offensive. I find it offensive that you think you can educate me. Children are frightened of you when you tell them a majik dead guy speaks into your head. Tell the truth - I am a little frightened of you when you tell me a majik dead guy tells you stuff into your head. Because if you think that and tell me you are ready to die rather than follow the Star Goat - what other sort of insane things are you prepared to do?
You. Today. Now.
well i dont feel threatened...when people say they encounter jesus or muhammad or krishna or sai or any other, i feel good about it...i can see how powerful human brain is and am excited about future where gods would die and humans would rise to 100% utilization of their brains...right now we dont use much of it and it is most powerful tool in entire universe...so i feel excited about it...i have met men with conviction of all faiths barring few like wicca...i dont doubt any of them..no body lies , all believe in what they say and all are correct about what they think ,they saw...the dieties differ but two things are common...one is brain and other is faith...and there is where i see religion and its deities becoming irrelevant..it is just matter of time ..
"well i dont feel threatened"... good for you.
Sadly many do!
PS The gods of religion will indeed die, But, Jesus is alive, He is Lord over all, and even if EVEY single person denies Him, He cannot deny Himself. So when it's all said and done, when the "dust settles" He will remain standing.
That would make me a christian.
Yes, BUT Jesus is the Only Son of God who has No Sin.
how may sons did god have to start with?.secondly how do you or me or any know that he was only sinless?
ya as believable muhammad being final prophet
he gets it.
Since Christianity is based upon the writings of the various authors of the Holy Bible, and since the Holy Bible is viewed as a fact based History text depicting the laws of man through the Laws of Moses which every civilization lives and abides by, then if you accept that God exists, and we live by God's laws, how can you deny the reality of God's Son? God being God, why can he not have a son?
Fact based history text? Really? By who's account?
Cagsil: History texts the world over substantiate the Holy Bible. World renouned Historians have proven again and again through their studies and findings as have anthropoligists and science. Do they all lie? Are you the only true authority? I think not You just like to run your mouth, and spout your doubts hoping to get others to doubt too.
ya but they are long dead...it is just that lie is being believed as truth...
fact based history?...which fact ?...that is was written?..yes this fact is true...it was written by humans like matthew and others...but other than that , right from whether jesus existed or not to whether he was crucified or not is debatable...how can one say what is fact...it is assumptions...
Get thee behind me evil one. You doubt History, you doubt Theology, You doubt Archeology. You mock God and God's words. Truly you are evil.
if i am mocking god's word , let god get me , why are you worried about it and who are you to come between god and me?
wow evil?....but isn't judging god's domain ?so you turned god ?..by the way it is not me saying this there is no archeological proof of jesus...personally i believe he existed as man who was hanged on croess because some felt he was dangerous for their political seat...but i dont doubt s existence ...but many do...and i stated that only...secondly you are doubting history not me...history states jesus if existed was mere man , you doubt it...secondly virgin birth is not possible according to science but you doubt science..human history is 0.2 million year old according to science , you doubt that too and you call me evil??????????...i never knew trusting tangible proof over unproven stories can be classified as evil...
So, the fact that you fabricated claims that history and archeology have "proven again and again through their studies and findings" that "substantiate the Bible" it is others here who are evil?
Wow Dave, that is a new low. Much anger in this one.
Ahhh! Beelzedad, I knew you cold not refrain from sticking your two cents worth of doubt and skepticism into this. You know as well as I do that History, Archeology and Theology have investigated the facts and what their discoveries and findings are. Only a true skeptic, a true unbeliever would continue to doubt in the face of truth. That is you. May God forgive you your skeptical ways and enlighten your mind with His truth.
" Christianity is the most fabricated of all religions "
Why just zero in on the Poor Christians ? Every religion in the world is fabricated by man, some older some younger but none the less fabricated based upon fear and superstition of primitive peoples trying desperately trying to make sense of the world around them.
http://hubpages.com/_3lzapg4qtlo4x/hub/ … c-Religion Please check out my new writing.
the op suggests that all religions are fabricated, but thinks christianity is MOST fabricated.
The one and only purpose of the Holy Spirit is to witness to the individual that Jesus is the Christ and Son of God. If anyone lacks wisdom concerning the subject, ask God with true faith if you have a real intent to know and he will give you an answer. But ask in faith, nothing wavering, with an eye single to the will of God.
Holy Spirit is an angel not exclusively for Jesus; it is for all the messengers prophets of the Creator-God Allah YHWH i.e., for Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Muhammad.
Please clear your concepts.
Nope, just Jesus. Again If you lack wisdom concerning the subject, ask God with true faith if you have a real intent to know and he will give you an answer. But ask in faith, nothing wavering, with an eye single to the will of God.
Not according to Jesus!
He said,"If I go not away, He (the Holy Spirit) will not come. But I will SEND Him to you!" Notice the word "send". That kind-a puts Him on equal status with the Holy Spirit, Who is most certainly NOT an angel.
The Holy Spirit who came after Jesus is Muhammad; peace be upon him.
So, is Islam a little less fabricated than Christianity?
I have a story to share:
There was a man, who had a wife and daughter who were Christians. Every year they went to church on Christmas eve and tried to get him to go. His answer every year was, "why would God every lower himself into human form?" No God would ever allow himself sink himself to that level. His wife and daughter would carry on and go to church without him. One snowy Christmas eve, he was inside his house, when he heard a big "THUD!" Shocked, he went to his living room and saw birds killing themselves by flying into his living room window. They were all seeking shelter and warmth, but instead, killing themselves. He rushed outside and opened his large barn door in hopes that the birds would try to fly into the barn, instead of his window. The birds could not understand what he was doing and continued to harm themselves by flying into the glass. Struck and saddened, the man said to himself, "if only I was a bird, I could warn them and save them from themselves." At that point he understood why a Great and Powerful God would ever change himself into human form. Jesus was God, who came to earth to tell us how to live and that his love for us is abundant. There's a God who loves you. Don't mistake Christianity for what you might see or think. To be a Christian means, to follow Christ. A follower of Christ should show love in every way. I guarantee that you will be surprised, that Christianity is not what you perceived it to be, before you read the bible or talked to a pastor.
Thank you for narrating a story; this is real likf here stories don't work; only facts work.
You do know that God can raise sons to Himself from rocks or anything else He wants?
But the Creator-God needs no sons or daughters or wives. He is complete in Himself.
god doesnot need universe to start with...still you say HE created it and so when he can create universe , he can create son too...not a big deal and nothing to be concerned about...
I would say the only need that God has is to fix things. When Adam sinned, everything was broken. God stepped in and started fixing things to bring them back to what He had planned to begin with.
That's an odd philosophy. You're saying God needs to fix the mess made by Adam eating an apple? I would think, if that were the whole point, that could have beenrectified rather quickly. Why spend this exorbitant amount of time in the process?
Who else could fix the mess Adam made? By Adam sin entered into the world and by Jesus eternal life has come to those who accept it.
Just as Adam had the choice to eat the fruit or not, we also have the choice to eat the fruit of the tree of life or not.
You assume He had no sons. You assume He need no sons. Who will listen to God? Is there anyone who has an ear to hear what the Spirit has to say?
You claim Muhammad to be greater than Jesus. Muhammad did not hear from God and never claimed to. He supposedly heard from and angel. Why does God send an angel if Muhammad could hear God Himself?
Your argument is false and has fallen apart.
god talked to moses , still world remained same , then he talked to jesus , still nothing changed...finally god realized that his talking is itself an issue...because HE is not being able to communicate...so HE got Gabriel to do that talking with Muhammad..Gabriel practiced for 500 years and finally delivered and considering how successful Muhammad was in his own life time , god could deliver this time...
You only think things didn't change. Everything is going according to the plan God had in the beginning.
How can anyone say God talking is an issue when he is God and able to do whatever pleases Him. Communication from God is not the issue. Listening to what he says is the issue.
Muhammad is a self proclaimed prophet with not anointing upon him. He was a warmonger and a greedy man. He was what we called in the old west in the US a highwayman. Ha had his gang of thieves that went out to steal, kill, and destroy.
Sounds just like the devil doesn't it. Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:
The second part of that verse is: "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." Jesus speaking.
Communication from God is not the issue. Listening to what he says is the issue. ok...so moses and jesus didnt listen the whole thing and so Muhammad was sent...in the end Muhammad was phenomena while jesus needed paul to come to promote his teaching...Muhammad was highly successful while jesus was not during his life time..Yes followers of jesus were extremely successful in taking jesus's teaching or what they thought was jesus's teaching to places...
as you claim Muhammad is self proclaimed prophet , many say Jesus is self proclaimed prophet too...point i was making is no one can say x belief is right and y is wrong , because it is mere belief...
Look at the fruit of their labors. Muhammad had many wives and was rich. Never healed anyone, never claimed to be able to save anyone, spoke the words of Satan one time and then said Allah abrogated what he said.
Jesus went around with nothing except the clothes on His back, He healed the sick, He raised the dead, He opened blinded eyes. He never spoke the words of Satan and was crucified and raised Himself up again.
Jesus said He was the Son of God and also the son of man at the same time. He then went on to prove that He is who He said He is. He also said, if you don't believe me, then believe the works that I do.
Many think that it is only a belief, but knowledge comes along with it. The heavens declare His glory and nature itself testifies of the existence of God.
I ask again, who could possibly fix the mess that Adam created?
that is whole point...Muhammad didnt heal anyone because he was man and he never claimed anything other than being a man whom god choosed to pass on his message...Muhammad played by the rules because no one is allowed to break the rules...Jesus too played by the rules and so bleeded when nailed...stories were created later because people needed some super natural story to believe Jesus was indeed sent by god but Muhammad needed none becoz he was already accepted as authority...
You edited while I was replying to what you posted first.
In what way was Muhammad successful? The fact that he was a warmonger? He figured out a way to extort money from strangers? Married many wives including a 6 year old girl? Had many thieves who followed him?
I will not be around much today after this post so you can have a lot of time to think on a reply.
successful in rebelling against popular belief which even jesus did...but muhammad could establish what he believed as word of god in his own life time ...that is what i was talking about...
Actually, he was successful in making things right with God. Through what he did all men can be reconciled with God the Father.
that is what you think but history states otherwise....muhammad was well accepted leader while jesus movement took upward turn much afterwards...muhammad died natural death and had united most of province where he lived...jesus didnt die natural death and it took lot of years to make jesus successful...his disciples should get more credit than jesus himself...they did all the hard job ....
If you really look at history, you will find that Muhammad united by the sword. He warred against the Jews and others who did not accept him for what he said he was.
Jesus did what no one else could do and that is redeem man back to God. It was God's plan after all.
again your assumption not historical...i mean jesus part...redeem man back to god is assumption , no tangible proof and cannot be regarded as history...coming to sword part yes you are right in that...but i am talking about success not means...he was more successful in establishing order and spreading what he thought were words of god...in other terms he was far more capable in handling situations , his oppositions than jesus..
I see no point at this time in continuing this discussion past this post. I will check back to see what you have to say though.
Muhammad killed men by the sword and you call him successful. He was a thief who extorted money from those who opposed him, and this makes him a success. By the standards of today, he would be a mafia Don.
Jesus didn't harm anyone in His time here on earth. He died a death that we all deserve to die. He healed the sick and opened blind eyes, physically and spiritually speaking. God is Spirit, and can only be acknowledged in the spirit.
If you really want the truth, you can find it. If you want to believe a lie, you can do that also. Know this one thing. No man or woman can know God except God reveal Himself to them.
1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Jesus is not a son of God. God don't have any children. Its senseless. Jesus is the messenger of God like Noah, Abraham and Moses.
God dont have children?...well it is not literal son of god...it is metaphor...and metaphorically every thing from snake to human , from bacteria to tree , from satan to angel , comes from god...it is source and it is destination...so in end everything is metaphorically son of god...that god is intelligent ,living entity for believers , non living energy for non believers...but in end it is the source...
If you paint a painting, will it be your child? No, it will be your creation. So don't messup creation with the children. Be logical!
primary logic demands there should be creator of creator..god created universe , so logically something should have created god...god can't exist logically...so let us not talk logic when we are talking on something illogical to start with...
you are missing the whole point out here...you seemed to assume that god created universe out of something...like if i create robot , i am its creator...raw materials i use are made of some metal which i didn't create...were already there...or for more better example...like scientist created a cell in lab...living cell...so scientist are not parent but creator of cell...but how did they create it?..from something which was already there...but god didn't create from something which was already there...since there was nothing to start with except god...god use its own energy to create and so god becomes source and metaphorically parent...or else there should be something which god used and so at beginning there should be god + something...now did this something create god?...if yes this something is creator of the creator and if there was nothing , god used its own energy and by default becomes parent...so in end humans are not just robots manufactured by some super entity for its own fun and usage , they are product of same energy which is called god and by default god becomes parent...
There is a creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator of creator
Where will this chain end? Definitely on God, The Creator of all things. Truly One and Only
that is what i am saying...god is assumption and not logical...it is assumed constant...always there , always was...no logic...some say it is beyond logic and if it is how does logic come into picture...so your premise of god having son or not capable of having son too is not based on logic but on faith...so dont use word logic when it comes to religion and faith...use i believe ...so you believe god cannot have son which is as valid as some one believing god can have son...because both are mere beliefs...
Here we go.
All the experts on Jesus will tell us the REAL story.
I can hardly wait what genius we shall see!!
All I would ask is, verify the source from which you get such an educated view. TY.
oh you want citations? really? where do you want to start?
world history? the classics or do you want actual biblical scholarly work? what level of credibility do you want for a forum? MLA? APA? double spaced?
But have no fear.
The second coming is at hand and the true religion will be established by him
Second Coming of Jesus in the shape of the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 has already take place; as the signs had been fulfilled.
yes, Jesus has already come down to earth. It happened in 1874.
Yes, Jesus is on the Earth. I will get back with evidence. please wait
Is this gonna be another fruitless 2,000 year wait?
No Ernest, long time no see.
It is going to be in your life time
Not more than 10 or 15 years.
You will see for yourself
True, believe me
or, mock at me
I think I will go with the mocking thanks!
The Christians must reform .
Metaphors don't make one a physical son of god which the Christians, courtesy sinful Paul and the sinful Church believe.
confused as to why so many people waste so much time on this...does it really matter if you know? is that going to make you sit inside on sundays, avoid meat certain days, give up M&M's til april?
@aka-dj no it wont...even christ wont be able to survive the changing realities...infact the very concept of intelligent being would alter...it is about time...yes new god would be created as humans have tendency to look out than within but all including christ would become obsolete...creator theory would evolve...it would be replaced by cycle theory...but it would take another 1k years or so...
How can something be MORE fabricated than other religions?!
I guess there's probably more denominations each believing an ever more specific difference about something which is essentially made up anyway if that's what you mean?
Why believe in ay religions? You must know in your heart of hearts that they're all ultimately made up?
What? Give up M&M's until April? Heresy and sacrilege I say!!!!
here i am not talking about whether muhammad knew the truth or jesus knew the truth...that depends on whom you ask...as per muslims both muhammad and jesus knew the truth...muhammad came after jesus as final seal of prophet...according to christians muhammad was false prophet...so whom you ask changes answer you get...i am talking from perceptive of two men..two men who thought they had message of god , two men who preached , two men who wanted their word to spread...in single life time muhammad achieved far more than what jesus did...spreading jesus's word and number of christains we have today is to be credited to jesus's follower...they were more successful in spreading the word than jesus himself was...while muhammad could establish hiw authority in his own time and so The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History places muhammad to be NO 1...
Here I am not talking about who had truth and who didn't ...here i am talking about succeeding in spread what they believed as word of god...
only buddha can compete with muhammad in this criteria...buddha achieved in his life time what muhammad achieved but buddha didnt take any weapon to meet his goal...
The Christians must reform .
Metaphors don't make one a physical son of god which the Christians believe, courtesy sinful Paul and the sinful Church .
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