Why do Christians use the Bible as evidence in Theological discussion?
The Christians should mention the claims and reasons from the Bible if they think Bible is truthful.
- Deepes Mindposted 13 years ago
0At the end of the day, Christians use the bible to explain their faith and belief system much the same as atheists use research materials and their various books to explain their beliefs. Two sides of the same coin. The difference is that most scientists stop at what can be proven where as religion explores possibilities beyond what can be proven. Both sides have their points where they are right and points where they are wrong.
As a Christian, it is not our job to convince unbelievers with the bible. It is our way we follow Christ to make the kingdom of God visable for them. But I have to say, that for the last 1982 years, we have done a lousy job of doing things.
The faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Only by faith one can be saved, since salvation is free gift of God. Since no one is good, but God our life example may produce only religion and not faith. Word of God is incorruptible seed to gives new life.
When one is walking in spirit (Word) he will have surely fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22)This isn't about salvation vlad, it is about why do Christians feel they need to use the bible in theological discussion so stick to the topic.
There are an awful lot of Christians that would disagree with you; that a part of your job is to run around "saving" others from their evil ways. Just look at the number of missionaries sent overseas (often in violation of local laws) with the sole intention of "saving" others.
Saving from sin of unbelief.
BTW I am not sure if I understand question: Why do Christians use the Bible as evidence in Theological discussion?
I would like to clarify that we believers are children of God. The Bible is manual of life; It is food for our spirit.
Have a blessing day.God is Father to all, not just the believers (Epg 4:6). You too have a blessed day
You were right, you didn't understand the question.
You didn't understand the question. Basically the question was asking why believers use the bible as evidence in a discussion with an atheist when atheists do not believe in God and think the bible is a 2,000 year old book of nonsense
You're very kind, I'm becoming old a bitter with no patience.
Nahh. Not bitter at all.. More crotchety perhaps...LOL
Atheists came after believers were here. They attacked and did not prove anything. All is just guessing, SciFi. We do not have to prove anything since God and spirit are not physical. It is all about faith lost in the Garden. Still it was believe but not right one just lie.
You are right, you don't have to prove anything to yourself. But if you want others to believe, you have to produce evidence.
Rad man, you still did not get it. The atheists live in physical realm. We live in both physical and spiritual. The atheists are aggressive since they do not have any facts, just guessing and theories.
My healing from colon cancer 25 years ago is evidence and fact. I did not have any medical treatment. One year ago I accidently found (symptomless) metastatic cancer to 3 places of bones. All banished. Glory to God! You may tell me phrase "spontaneous remission". Well you do not have to tell me that I am the physician. I know it is term when we do not know anything about supernatural healing. I had witness of healing by laying hands and verified.How do you tell the difference between a completely natural, "spontaneous remission" (albeit with unknown mechanism and causes) and supernatural healing by God or others laying on of hands?
Is it just your own (and common) ignorance of the mechanism? A time correlation (lay on hands, then get healed means supernatural forces at work)? How to you tell the difference?Hello wilderness and others. I described my testimony in one Hub. I am Internist and Gastroenterologist and I believe in healing. 25 years ago I felt there is something wrong in my colon. I will not detail it. I was ready to go to Florida on gastroenterology convention. I was hesitating to stay home or go with my family - wife and three children. I consider to visit our local surgeon to scope. Then I pray and decided go to Florida as promised to my family and I took my Bible even to classroom (there were 3000 specialists). In intermission I went out and recited at the sea on beach Word of God loud. (BTW I did write before books Healing I-II volumes).
About third day at five pm I went to hotel and before we went to supper I went to toiled and expelled from colon bloody tumor size ping pong ball. I never was sick after even not having colds.
Two years ago my insurance pressed me to go for routine exam. My cancer lab score was 10 x high of normal and internist send me for further study to national center. I got CT scan Pet scan and found two metastases in thoracic spine and one in nasal bone. I came home and decided not to worry and did not share any info with anyone. I believe watch your mouth. No surgery, no chemo or radiation. One year later I got CT scan and metastases gone. Still did not have any symptoms like pain. Glory to God.
In the pass I did not want to disturb my practice hours and I had healing clinic in my office to those who wanted come. I taught Word of God had also teaching guests. Many patients were healed, just by faith and lying hands. Laying hands is only contact points to release faith. I taught how to protect form relapse.
I lay hands only on people who believed and wanted. Who do not I treat patients medical way. I am practicing faith on purpose. I believe it was broken faith in the Garden and we have now many consequences of it.
My secretary also believes in my hands, as she said having "healing power".
I cannot give faith to anyone or convince you any way.none of that is evidence. You're a stranger on a website, and there is no reason that we should take anything you say on "faith" alone.
Even if your story is true, and there was some kind of "divine" intervention and not a medical explanation, you have no way to leap from the fact that you were sick to the god that you already believed in healed you. What if another god did it? Did god sign his name on your cancer? If he is god, didn't he allow you to get cancer in the first place? Why are you willing to give this god all of the credit and none of the blame, when you can't even determine which god healed you in the first place?
What if Allah heard your prayer to the wrong god and decided to heal you out of pity? I bet he's angry that you're giving all of the credit to a different deity when he did all of the hard work.
Nevermind the fact that this story is interesting, but arrogant. You say that god healed your cancer, but he does nothing to save all of the other cancer patients in the world. He does nothing to save the starving children in Africa. He does nothing to heal amputees or raise the dead. What made you so special that he would single you out and let everyone else die and rot? If intercessory prayer worked, then it should heal everyone - or did your god just love you MORE than everyone else?Thank you for sharing your story. It is very interesting. One thing I would point out is that there was no way you would have found out about the metastases had you not sought medical treatment at the urging of your insurance company in the first place. Medical treatment includes the consultation and/or scans and tests in order to diagnose the problems. so there was some medical treatment done in order for you to know what to pray for healing on
Be careful that you're wife doesn't find out.
I'm glad you acknowledge that. But I just as predicted won the lottery twice and gave the money to the local food bank and I have provided evidence. I'm done winning the lottery because it's to easy to feed the hungry that way.
If I had such power of prediction, I would predict an end to hunger.
Out of curiosity, How did you find the cancer without somy type of medical exam or treatment?
I use to have privilege to order tests. But no, I did not, I must have physician (personal one). You know socialistic control. My physician sent me to specialist and I see three of them plus radiologist who read my scans and I reviewed them. But I do not want any more to discus with skeptics. I do not have time for this.
I wasn't stating that I doubted your story at all. In fact, I have no opinion on it one way or the other. This is what you experienced and for all purposes I understand what you're saying you believe happened.
As a side note, If you don't want your beliefs questioned by skeptics (Which is was a few of the people here are) then you may not want to share them on Hubpages or any of the forums because that's what's going to happen. People will question what doesn't sound right to them. Some will keep asking questions to gain understanding.
Yea I think you mentioned this before, but unfortunately all I have is your word that you diagnosed yourself and did nothing but pray. No evidence what's so ever. I at least supplied my evidence in the forum This could be a major event in my life.
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/109812So true VU, I myself am a product of healing by faith. I had a mild heart attack in 2002 and a mild stroke in 2010, now I have decided to trust more on the Lord Jesus as my true healer with that dynamic immune system that God has created in all of us, with the ability to eventually heal ourselves, if only we may believe in Jesus as our true healer. I have chosen to believe and trust more in Him as I prayed during and after having been hospitalized due to the mild stroke. And the truth has set me free. I only take red wine and nitric oxide, VCO or virgin coconut oil and some other natural supplements. Godspeed as we KJOH.
Yea right, what do we need doctors for and hospitals for anyway. I guess the cancer wards are Christian free?
Total surrender to God's will can be so beautiful. But is man truly ready and willing to accept this that God in Jesus is His only Master?
Then, why is it so disturbing to see people like that? It's like their minds and expressions have gone blank, while their eyes have that thousand-yard-stare.
Of course not, that would be ridiculous. People are not slaves who need masters.
Healing is available free of charge to everyone who has faith in God's healing power ,asking for it without doubtfulness. If/when we do share our experiences being healed by the power of God through Jesus Anointed One, enjoying being well, we do not ask for anyone's approval , but at the same time we appreciate not to be ridiculed, humiliated or mocked. We are human beings as rest of the humans created by the same loving, carrying Creator. Perhaps difference makes that we have decided to use our faith while the others did not , this time around.
Tolerance and civilized behavior if considered , could do great improvement in this world of ours full of suffering and hatred -- unnecessarily . It's in our " power " to create a happy and healthy environment once again.How many healed amputees do you know?
Why don't you go down to the nearest hospital and tell all of the children in the cancer ward that the reason that they're still sick is their fault. They just don't have enough faith for god to heal them. Its disgusting, isn't it?So far in my life I'm only speaking what I know. An answer to your question might be found, if you will diligently and sincerely looking for.
But I already have the answer. Prayer doesn't work, if it did there would be no Christian children with cancer, which is to bad because my Christian cousins 7 year old boy was recently diagnosed with cancer. Should he get treatment and pray or just pray because getting the treatment would indicate that he doesn't have enough faith that prayer alone would heal.
Well sir, you have your answer, and I have my answer. No argument on my part. The God won't change His position on the position of faith and those who believe or not believe. Just try to imagine, if you and everyone in the world would choose to believe . . .
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as oneInspiring; " you may say I'm a dreamer , but I'm not the only one; I hope some day you'll join us and the world will live as one." No one have to call Him "GOD " , - anyway it's 'adapted' nan- made way of identification for the sake of communication . His first recorded self- proclaimed name is " I AM ", this one also needs to be explained while never been obtainable, gettable , remains unfathomable ... That's why, " in keeping with His promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness ." (
I think you missed the point of John Lennon's song.
What do you say to those who pray as you tell them but the cancer doesn't go away? Something like "you just don't have enough faith"? Now you have a sick guilty person. Thanks, Nice job.
Please don't repeat this one. I had a nephew that passed away from hepatoblastoma one month before his 8th birthday. I am a believer, but to say that people that don't make it fail because they have doubt is arrogance of the highest degree as well as insulting
Honoring your desire, instead of " repeating " myself, let me tell you where from my idea of "believing"comes. Following are Jesus ' words: " have faith in God " ..." I say unto you, that whosoever ...shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe..." ( Mark 11:22-26-- gives complete understanding ,)
The same: Jesus said" if you have faith and doubt not... ( Matt. 21:21. ) My free will choice is to have faith and to believe , and to say what God said. The other part: WHY some are healed and some aren't I. DON'T. KNOW. The God Almaghty, Eternal, the Creator of everything knows everything and I'm not questioning Him I only obey and do...so if you have faith enough, god will provide you with a new house and a new car - but ignore the pleas, cries and prayers of the millions of children dying of starvation all over the world every moment.
That's not a god. That's a monster. How could you POSSIBLY want to believe in that?The Scripture provided isn't my own ; problems in this world listed by you are in existence, . . A " why?" to answer ALL what's is going on now and what is yet to come, in this world's social system is provided in the recorded Scripture. However none of this wil prevent me to have Faith in Gos's word , which is powerful enough to provide even discernment when to discontinue conversation of this kind.
so you're just saying you'll refuse to examine your own faith and the scriptures that you cling to, even when they fail to provide any evidence at all and they're full of hatred, immorality and injustice. Great.
It's not matter of my refusal to provide what the other believe or not believe, I am accountable to myself and to my God for my actions and faith, so are you and everybody else.
But the Bible you believe in commands you to. You're not living up to what you claim, which makes you appear hypocritical, doesn't it?
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hopethat you have. But do this with gentleness and respect
1 peter 3:15Even going on a more fundamental level, I'm not sure how long you have been coming on the forums Michael, but when you jump into a theological forum, you must be prepared to be questioned. You mentioned the discernment that you have to bow out of discussions, your discernment should also lead you to not jump into any more discussions unless you are truly willing to.. you know.. DISCUSS your side.
Wow, what a bold wrong attribute " but the bible you believe in commands to you... You're not living up to what you claim. "
Sir, my statement remains valid. It is a direct answer to a direct statement made by the other person, "But I already have the answer , prayer doesn't work... " so when one party says it doesn't, why the other believes it does, to any consideration " no" vs. " yes" ,going opposite direction.a simple conclusion, means, this part is over...
A Scripture you've provided, 1Peter 3:15 has valid application to a specific situation , since the phrase "the hope that is in you " or " among you" in literal Greek is speaking of "hope of Christian community, which has been attacked by the others .that is the reason " among you."
Now , your lecturing me to know what the bible I'm living by commands me , and I'm not living by it????
You do not know me, neither my walk with God . It's between me and my God. Every teachable person knows this fact, only few are bold to admit.I said that it makes you appear hypocritical. How can you evangelize without being able to defend your faith? Do you just give up on people who are skeptical? That doesn't make any sense at all. Additionally, how do you know that god called you to evangelize and not to defend?
Although I've studies the Greek and the Latin, I have never before heard your interpretation of 1 peter 3:15. Apparently my Bible professors midst have been mistaken.Wow. What a nice person you are. I can live without further harassment .
Do you insist anyone disagreeing with you harassment?
Not at all, " insisting" is your version to provoke. Please?!
yes I know what I said. What I don't know is why you're repeating it.
My time is limited. I need to be a good steward of it. There is always possibility for ethical continuance.
how in the world can you possibly say that anything I've said is harassment? The only thing I've done is disagree with you, and try to use logic to reason with you. Fortunately, you seem to be oblivious to logic, so it's hardly a problem. Are you now going to claim that you're being persecuted just because someone differs on your beliefs and is well educated enough to have a conversation from an opposing point of view?
All I did was ask you questions that you apparently are unable to answer so you revert back to accusing me of harassing you. That's not honest.OK that's not honest. Anything else, please .
You are not only accountable for your actions and faith, you are also to spread the gospel to others. Part of spreading that gospel is to be prepared to defend that faith as well as answer questions that could possible enlighten another so that they will come into that faith for themselves. If you have an answer that may help another find God, why withhold that answer? To do that would be essentially to condemn that person to perish for lack of knowledge that you refused to provide.. That is not in God's plans.
Mine is to " evangelize"- to present, not to "defend " , a meaning " to argue or speak in defense of..." In God's plan for me wasn't to take the role of the Holy Spirit to " convict the world..."
Marketing Tip. Look for people who are easy marks. You need to instead set your sights on the poor and desperate because they will be the most gullible. Christians have been doing this for years with some success and what they do to keep them poor is provide some basic necessities, while not providing the education to help themselves. Make sure you collect payment while your at it.
Problem - God's 10% doesn't do much to fill the collection plate when there isn't much to get that 10% from.
The poor can give till it hurts, and often do to the point of going without basic necessities, but it still doesn't provide the gold the church wants. You need rich believers as well.
Actually, you are right. You are called to evangelize. But what are you to do when your belief is attacked? just let it be attacked? Part or presenting the word, or evangelizing if you will, it to make sure you have a counterpoint (defense) in place when someone presents a point as to why they don't believe.
Following my Master's instruction " If anyone doesn't welcome you or listen to your words . . . Shake the dust of it from your feet ..." It was well understood by those of first generation, that hey were having nothing more to do with the place , nor would it have any share in the Kingdom ...[[ one need to have sincere desire to know and t o understand the purpose of God in this world of ours...]]
Wait a minute! You aren't one of the guys Jesus sent out two by two. You have a different job description, now. There has been a crucifixion, a burial, and a resurrection since that gig!
EVERYTHING, what my God has approved by His YES , automatically any human " no" is disqualified. The God is eternal, His word is eternal, His principles are eternal , applicable for all ages. When He said " whosoever believe will... Those who believe will ..." Includes ALL who chose to use and apply FAITH, - all millions before us, all presently living as well those coming after us , so if you will it includes me too. The "redemptive" accomplishment of the Messiah is outlined in OT prophecies, as well in NT writings . This is elementary. Everybody knows .
No, not everybody knows. Not even people who claim to know truly know.
If I told you that the sun was going to rise tomorrow and it did, would I have successfully fulfilled a prophecy? If I told you that I was going to eat steak for dinner, and then went out and ordered steak and ate it, would you consider that to be fulfilled prophecy? Of course not. When the Bible does it, however, you claim fulfilled prophecy, when its really nothing of the sort.It appears when it comes to God all critical thinking is lost. A few weeks past I started a forum in which I stated I was given lottery numbers by an unknown source and I should give the money to the food banks. I claimed it happened twice and I provided evidence, but no believers questioned and some were jealous. I think in order to keep this mind simulation going the Super-ego won't allow the ego to question anything pertaining to God. I noticed this a while back when believers make claims of miracles, all believers seem to just nod their heads. No evidence required.
Christians have a get out of jail free card when it comes to prophecy, at least in their minds. If its obviously failed, it just hasn't happened yet, obviously its valid indefinitely until it (or something like it) does. If its similar sounding after the fact, then its obviously fulfilled prophecy - even if the original writing was never meant to be prophetic at all. Yet they dismiss all prophecies fulfilled in other religions or by cold-reading psychics.
Prophesy? How about the children of Israel being gathered from every part of the globe to reform the ancient inheritance?
It is only a matter of a short amount of time until Israel is restored completely.
Hallelujah!And did the people making that possibility a reality know about the prophecy and actively tried to fulfill it? Yep. Self-fulfilling prophecy is not true prophecy. If you actively try to fulfill a prophecy, it is not a divine or supernatural event. It's a bunch of people trying to make something happen because they believe in it.
I wake up tomorrow morning and crave a steak. I tell everybody that I speak to that I am going to have a steak for dinner. I go home after work and stop at a restaurant that serves steak. I order one. The waiter/waitress brings me that steak. Have I fulfilled a prophecy? Absolutely not. I said something and then made it come true.
I wish I had a get out of jail free card like that.. Life would be so much easier...LOL.. Sorry.. Just poking that general statement you made.
It is a get out of hell free pass for those who see their sins nailed to the cross.
Lol touche. I should have specified "Christians that point to "prophecy" as proof of what they already believe to be true.
No prob.. We're good. I'm used to you.. But it's still fun to get ya at times
Likewise, my believing friend. I'm actually rather fond of you. You keep me on my specificity toes.
Generalizing again.
Regarding your lottery ticket.. You provided evidence that you won. The fact that nobody questioned where you got the numbers from is, for the most part irrelevant because you have no way of proving where you got the numbers from (I know.. similar to Christians not being able to prove their personal experiences). Regarding nobody questioning the ticket provided, For some believers, they chalk it up to a miracle and don't ask because they attribute everything to God. For others (I.E me
) they may be happy for you winning because they like you, but may not care enough to check the tickets for themselves. But this is in no way indicative of how all believers view thingsoops. sorry, but my point is or was that it slid by. Rad Man says he's suddenly hearing voices and the voices want his to win the lottery? I show my lottery ticket after the fact they numbers have been posted/drawn and no one, beside a few BS's from ATM and an Are you alright from Mo and I think yourself who understood what I was doing. No one says, hey Rad, aren't you a graphic designer? Wouldn't it be easy for you to fake a ticket after the numbers have been drawn so you can provide a link? I got a few people claiming it was uncle Fred feeding me the numbers and a few telling me it was God. Everyone trying to reenforce their beliefs.
Yes, I do generalize and will try better.
It seems not Everyone Knows what you're talking about.
Well If that were the case, Then once your initial words were "rejected" you should have shook the dust from your feet. yet you still kept replaying to this post
Sir, the initial question to this forum :" Why do Christias use the Bible as evidence in theological discussion? A genuine question deserves a genuine answer . . . Much anything has been discussed, beside to accept what the "Christians ," had to offer, especially in a term of " theological. " As for example this incident in which the question has been pointed to me , " what are you to do when your belief is attacked " - and immediately given suggestin " you have a counterpoint defense." My assumption at this point is /was that we are having an open and genuine discussion. To that part of text of someone's sugesstion that my words were" rejected " a command is issued ' you should have shook the dust from your feet ... You're still coming back...' ( I can take that .) Actually I'm not coming back, I'm still here only because of one my answer is being stretched into extra added " talk". As you can see there wasn't any actual " attack" as formerly indicated, since there wasn't ( yet ) " and expression of strong criticism or hostile comment," ( a Diction, explanation). Up to now, a discussin maintain fairly balance tone of civility, though some nitpicking has been noticed .
Nobody is questioning your faith itself nor saying you shouldn't have faith (Well maybe JM is.. J/k JM). The main question that is being asked now is Why do you believe? What is it that is leading you to God for yourself?
So If you only obey and do without questioning what you're told, then how do you know you are really doing what you are supposed to be doing? How do you know that you are following the word contextually and not making a mistake? I'm sorry, There is no learning of God in that. That is merely memorization and regurgitation As well as indoctrination. Even the bible states to read and study to gain understanding. You can't possible have real understanding if you aren't asking questions.
So do you.
No, just the physical, the spiritual has never been shown to exist.
That is an obvious fabrication. How sad it is that you must make up false statements in order to defend your faith.
LOL. Do you actually think we're going to swallow that fable, especially after you made those false statements above?
Not true. Humans were here without any beliefs in gods, they were all atheists. Religions developed later.
As in Matthew 16:25, Jesus said, "For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it."
If Jesus never existed, there should not have been manuscripts found of the scriptures now read and believed by many from all over.If Harry Potter never existed, there should not have been manuscripts of the books now read and understood by many from all over.
I'm the wrong person to discuss the historicity of jesus and the evolution of scripture with, seeing as I have a college degree in it.
Scriptures exist today because the catholic church was named the official religion of rome by constantine. The church held political power for over a thousand years, and they were the ones that maintained, canonized and preserved scripture. They also burned, destroyed or ignored other scriptures that didn't line up with their own doctrine and even deliberately FORGED works to add credibility to their beliefs.
A lot of religions have old books - some more well preserved than the christian canon. Do you believe in them, too?
For the one who may believe in the truth in God will believe in what the Holy Bible says, and the one who does not, how can he believe if he has a hardened soul and has no FAITH. Only the ones who humble themselves to God in Jesus, who gladly opens their heart and spirit to Him, may better understand the truth in His words.
If you believe more what is in your mind, which will eventually die with your flesh in mortal death, then I pray that you may believe more with love in your heart, not with your pride that comes passing with your flesh, whence, you may be humbled for when you believe more in something that will never last, is this not what veers us away from the truth that we have a spirit in us, a spirit that only God can destroy in Hell as one may choose not to believe in what God tells us to believe?
And if Satan was able to deceive Adam and Eve into believing that they do not have to listen to God, rather, listen to him more because he is the one telling the truth, whom would you rather believe, God for eternal happiness or Mammon (evil, material things, money) for anything that leads us to emptiness and that which becomes all but meaningless after this life?
If you believe you came from nothing and not from God, what does that make of you when you die? Nothing?
Is this not what the evil one wants you to believe that he may see you perish by believing more in your pride than to love God who has created you out of love that you may live to love and thank Him, and others who have shown you love that you may love them back or those who have greater need of your true and eternal, unconditional and unselfish love who may be saved from evil deceptions and from hell?
I pray that in love and forgiveness, more may see the light of Christ and the truth in His words that more may be healed in both body and spirit, whence they may have more peace and joy in their hearts and be renewed in Jesus, and be freed from all evil deceptions and sinfulness and become more powerful in spirit.I was a Christian once, until I studied it and realized there was no reason to believe in it. I've heard enough sermons to last a lifetime, thanks.
How long do you think you will want to live in this short life, JMF?
Don't you ever want to still live as an immortal being when you die, where you may claim triumph over death and over evil, where you would see and enjoy more than what this life can give as your reward in the humility of your heart to God?
Will this not be more than freedom and more than seeing your favorite movie or eating your favorite dish?What is not believing in what is true called? Can truth set you free or is it deception that sets you free dear friends?
Not believing in what is true is called "religion." And the truth does, indeed, set you free from that particular shackle.
If I believe in the truth that God created us all, and through Jesus, all things were created, then Jesus is beyond religion? Is therefore religion not merely for those who believe we were created to believe in different religions? Who would want us to believe in as many religions as we may want to believe so as to sway us away from the truth? Is this not again, the cunning evil one Zel? Why do many people still believe in his deceptions instead of believing in Jesus?
If the evil one fails to care about others and in their suffering, and what if you were on the receiving end as the one who suffers or your love one suffers because of other's carelessness, how would you feel? Would you rather help enlighten them to what is true in Jesus or care less? If we care less, is this not about selfishness, an evil entrapment?
It's truth according to YOU, not real truth. You cannot prove that any of this will actually happen. It's wishful thinking. If you think you're actually going to get anyone to change their minds and believe in what you claim by preaching to them and trying to appeal to emotion by creating a fear of death, hell or the afterlife, you're sorely mistaken. I'm not afraid of death. I was just fine before I was born. I didn't exist, and that was fine. I'm going to be just fine after I die. You spend much more time not existing than the brief blip of time that you show up on this earth, and going back to that nothingness once my time is done is just fine with me.
Can't answer for JM, but I would absolutely not wish to have an eternal life. There cannot possibly be a more cruel and terrible thing than to live for eternity, with no hope of every dying.
Although few welcome death, it is still our friend and relieves us of any terrible necessity to live forever.Christians, though not perfect, share their beliefs because they want others to be saved. Why do atheists share theirs? What is there to gain? What's wrong with feeling hopeful and faithful all of one's life? It feels good! When the body dies, there will be no regrets if there is no God. What is there to lose? If the atheists are wrong, what is there to lose? Eternal life, of course! You are safer being a Christian.
But Islam teaches that if you don't follow Islam you'll burn in hell, so it's safer to follow Islam. Will you switch?
The gamble here then, is on whether or not an eternal life awaits us all, one in which we are either at the side of Jesus/Allah/Zeus, or sitting nonchalantly in a lake of fire.
Neither are actually attractive as options, but that's just a personal opinion.
But, the only stake in the gamble must be made entirely on blind faith, the hope of things unseen.
A gambler would never take such odds, way to risky, even with a high payoff.
It's like putting all your money in the pot for finding Atlantis.
So, if Christians are wrong, what do they lose?
Respect, honesty, integrity, maturity, intellect, understanding, thinking, morals, ethics... the list goes on...This, once again is called pascals wager, and it has been thoroughly debunked by me and many other more learned scholars. There are a million religions, and only one chance out of a million that yours is correct. Atheism is a fifty-fifty shoot of being right and not pissing off a potential god by spending an entire life worshipping the wrong one.
That is a question best answered by one who is immortal. Every story I've read in which an immortal is involved, they begin to long for death as a release from the boredom of their endless lives.
From the perspective of a mortal, it if unfathomable to hear such arrogance and ungratefulness. Who WOULDN'T want to be immortal? And, who in their right mind would ever want to give it up?When you become immortal in spirit and in Christ, ATM, as has been the experience of many true believers, even in this life, they may already feel the fullness of God's love in their spirit that there is nothing more beautiful than this.
If you believe this temporary life is all that you may want to expend, and find content in what you believe is true, as against what truth there is in the Holy Bible, are you really loving yourself or just pitying yourself? Does self propagation lead to a more fulfilling life or to self-pity, J and W? Who is deceiving who my friends?
What do you feel when you are loved as when you are hated? Would you feel better being loved or hated?Gobbledegook. Warm days at the beach with frolicking bikinis is as beautiful as it gets.
Neither, I am enjoying myself. I might pity those who don't if I gave it a thought.
You have been deceived, my friend... by the Holy Bible.
Those terms become very ambiguous and almost interchangeable in regards to the behavior of the the God of the Holy Bible. It's baffling.
If the christian extrapolation of heaven exists, I would absolutely NOT want to be there, stuck worshiping such an evil tyrant of a god forever. I want nothing to do with it. And you didn't answer ANY of my questions, you just stuck to more preaching.
Being a 'Christian' once or hundred times , as well as to listen countless sermons won't make anyone righteous, moral or truthful without personal desire and a decision to know THE TRUTH , to live a life of integrity : knowing what is right and doing the same.
Now it's easy, since I t - is - r e v e a l e d through Good News that the beginning and the end of the process by which The God puts men right with himself is faith ." The man who Is right with God through faith will live." ( it manifested in living " right" with your " neighbor ".)
That is not a belief I could ever hold, under any circumstances... boasting of a god who would destroy in Hell those who don't share the same beliefs. Terrible behavior for a god.
I would much rather make it my goal to not serve a god, but instead serve family and friends so as to make great meaning and memories for them after this life.
Who will talk of the slave to a selfish god?
Such a well rounded pejorative... swiftian in it's rapier like delivery.
You said the word 'love' 6 times in that paragraph. Notice how insignificant, irrelevant and diminished that word has become through it's ample usage, to the point of becoming derogatory?
Ground control to Edwinoel... your circuits dead... there's something wrong.. can you hear me... Edwinoel... can you hear me Edwinoel... can you hear...If one denies you to the hilt, to the extent of devouring all of the rest of your children, despite your show of your love and mercy, never listens and never humble himself to you and never cares, how would you feel? Would it be better to throw him the incorrigible, malicious, selfish, deceiving and prideful creation into a place where he may feel what others he has victimized may feel, that he may be enlightened or let him contaminate the rest?
Hell can be any state of torture from our own wrong doings. God sends us signs many times in our lives so we may return and remain in His flock.
That is why He alone knows what is best for us for He knows what is in our hearts. He purposely puts us many times into the test, that we may be humbled from our pride.
No one can hide from Him ATM. His love and mercy goes for those who want to renew and repent in godly ways pleasing to Him. His justice is swift 'like a thief in the night,' when least expected. But He never gives up on those whom He knows someday may learn to grasp true FAITH and believe in Him and in His words.Contaminate? It is your religion that has contaminated mankind, destroying everything in it's path like a disease, enslaving the minds of our youth to a lifetime of servitude, ignorance and delusion.
The wrongdoings of telling others they will contaminate and require torture in Hell is much worse than not believing in your religion.
Such as what?
Baloney. God is a selfish, maniacal dictator who only deserves to be rejected without recourse.
Pleasing to Him? His love and mercy? LOL. You just finished ranting about how the torture of Hell is required for us. That's not love or mercy, that's tyranny.
You just contradicted yourself.That didn't take you long to pick apart ATM.. I couldn't have done it better myself if i tried
You have kids ATM, Radman, JMF, etc? Do you love them? Why or why not?
If you have an inkling how your kids were gradually formed in the womb of a woman, how could you explain this phenomenon?
In the Holy Bible, God created man and other things?
Where do you think then we and other creations came from?Evolution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Look it up.
There doesn't have to be a God because you don't understand the natural world.Here's the thing. When you have a child, you love them - practically unconditionally, right? You want them to love you and respect you, but ultimately they don't HAVE to. If they disobey you, they may be punished, but can you imagine sending your child to a place of eternal torture forever if they fail to worship you and stroke your ego and let you know what a wonderful, loving parent you are? If you tortured your child for one day for a finite misstep you'd be arrested for bad parenting and child abuse. What if the punishment was eternal - just because they didn't love you the way that you hoped that they would? Does that seem just, loving or fair to you?
If you saw a child suffering and crying out for help, could you stand by while their tortures and impending death approached and do nothing to help them? It doesn't even have to be YOUR child. If you see any child suffering, you are compelled to do something to help. Could you stand there and watch while a child was being tortured right in front of you without stepping in? Your god does.Amen JMF. Your explanation is very similar to what God's love is all about except for the truth about the incorrigible and the truth about God and the power of His words.
As in the Holy Bible, God knows what is in our hearts and He knows the future, what our next moves and decisions would be, as God in Jesus knew exactly what is going to happen with betrayals, denials, miracles to happen even with having Lazarus rise from the dead, about His own death on the cross and resurrection, ascension, and even in the Old Testament about Job's persevering faith that the evil one cannot change Job's strong spirit with the Lord despite tragedies in his life and the lost of his wealth, family and possessions.
Yes, JMF and ATM, no matter how you and others may will themselves not to believe in Him, you will see signs in your life that He is in control, as He made all of us and all things, as He has allowed technology and science to make life easier and beautiful for us, but let's not close our eyes to this unseen truth, in our spirit, where we may see the lighted path.
ATM, nice shot on evolution but even the human mind or logic cannot defend evolution more so the big bang my friend. They are all theories isn't it. Everything in science is all theories, they become truth to as far as God allows them to be true and as you allow yourself to believe they are true, but in understanding God's power, with Him nothing is impossible.
Only the evil one would not stop pounding on you these lies. So be careful, the evil one can ONLY be powerful on those who believe in sin, malice, selfishness and pride, but has no power on those who have learned to accept the truth in Christ and in the words of God.
Trusting in God more than you trust in anything material in this world while you surrender your 'self' to Him allows the Holy Spirit to fill your body and spirit with God's love.
Listening to whispers against this truth is all of evil's design as you may have already seen it happen for those who allowed themselves to be under the bondage of sin, starting from Genesis in Adam and Eve.
Again God loves us all gentlemen, be stronger in Christ and see us all triumph and be saved from the evil's deception as he always wants to claim everything his own. And see spiritual warfare in its true essence as you become stronger in spirit.
Good day and blessings in Christ Jesus.
Why would I be pressed to convince you of the truth of God? It is self evident.
there is no evidence of god. If there were evidence, and it was truly self-evident, then there would be no atheists and there would only be one religion. that is obviously not the case.
Your in good company: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
yeah, except the people that wrote that were Deists. Not Christians. The founding fathers had a LOT to say about the dangers of religion - Christianity specifically.
The comment wasn't posted regarding a specific religion, only that they believed a Creator was self evident.
true...to a degree. Although, they're saying that human RIGHTS are self-evident. Not that a creator is self-evident. All this from men who enslaved innumerable men, women and children. Apparently the self-evident rights were not so self-evident after all.
I was only speaking to the expression of their belief. It seems to me the existence of God being self evident is clearly inferred in their statement, but you are correct that it is not explicit. What is clear is that they believed in a Creator. For most of the founding fathers, based on their writings, this was without question to them. Evidence of such is written all over US history, monuments and buildings. That was all.
Hi Mr. bBerean. An interesting statement. I did check constitutions of 50 States and found in introduction (Preambles) all honoring God the Creator. I am sure it was not Buddha or else but meant Elohim God.
To comment re case of Mr. Michael Milec vs opponent our duty is to tell people Good News that Lord Jesus did all job for us and we need to restore faith in Him and receive Grace. We do not have to defend anything.
We never were and never will be good. We received His (Jesus) righteousness, not work (Law) righteousness.which goes directly against the separation of church and state.
You misunderstand the separation of church and state.
They had no intent to eliminate God from public life. The state could no longer have an official "Church" like the Church of England. Those English pilgrim folks had no qualms about religious persecution when they got to try their hand. Too bad they didn't set a better example for the pagan Native Americans.
No telling what the world would look like if the Europeans had decided to adopt more of the natural ways of the indigenous breed as an improved approach to life. Live humbly, don't take more than you need, and leave a soft footprint on the face of the Earth.Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Believing that Jesus is beyond religion because 'Through Him all things were made,' Man's laws, while we live in the flesh, may become more powerful if so much attuned to God's laws and commands, as they are meant for eternity, as His love endures forever.
Whether we like it or not, we are subject ot God's greatest law of 'love' for man and of all His creation. If we mess up with God's law, we may get away a few times as He gives us chances to renew, until comes the day of reckoning, as He calls upon us from this life.
I pray that more people may open their hearts and souls to this truth, a reality in our lives that the evil one continues to blind us in our pride and human wisdom.Oh yes, the "I know Jesus personally. Its not a religion, its a relationship" Argument. If christianity self admits that its not a religion, then churches should have no problem whatsoever paying taxes. Go suggest that to your Pastor and see what he has to say about it.
Not to mention, you can't prove that anything that you're saying is true. You just want it to be.Actually, there are two definitions of religion. One that is personalized and one that refers to a collective group
true, but if "christianity" as a whole is considered to be a religion and is granted special exemptions from the state due to their religiosity, then someone intentionally calling themselves a "christian" is a part of that bigger whole which is defined by the church AND the state as a religion.
I don't fully agree with this sentiment. That feels almost to me like a lumping together of everyone that uses a specific term to describe themselves. Even though one might call himself or herself whatever they call themselves doesn't mean they think or believe (or not believe in the case of atheists) the same as the collective
but christianity is a world-wide religion. It is not purported as a relationship. It admits to being a religion. If you want to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ - or the Purple Invisible Pet Dragon or the Flying Spaghetti Monster's lost meatball, that's fine. But if you call yourself a Christian, you are a part of a group, whether you agree with all of their doctrines or not. If you don't want to be identified with Christians, why would you call yourself one?
It's not a matter of being identified as one. The issue is being identified as having all of the same uniform beliefs as the collective. That's (in my opinion) like you calling yourself an atheist but not wanting to be associated with all of the generalized preconceived notions regarding atheists. Even though atheists don't classify atheism as a religion (Which I agree with), This society of classifications would group it as its own religious affiliation. Similar to a Christian church considering itself nondenominational. society classifies it as a denomination of itself
Just because I call someone who believes in jesus a christian does not mean that I expect them to all share the same doctrines. I think christians are incredibly wary of being lumped in with the likes of the Westboro baptist church that they have begun to distance themselves from the label. it's not the label that's the problem - it's the many varying pieces that all identify with the same label that act in ways that makes the rest of them uncomfortable. I don't know what else you could be getting at.
If people have preconceived ideas about atheists and make false assumptions about me based on them, I am more than capable of pointing out the errors and letting them know where the assumptions are false. That does not mean that I speak for all atheists, it means that I am an individual. I am still a part of the whole, however - and I expect a lot of misconceptions. I don't have to like them all, but I expect them.And the sad thing is that it's the pieces that lead some to just shun the label as a whole and lead them to having the same preconceived notions, which makes it difficult at times for someone like me to show myself as being different from the collective.
I agree with you that one has to be able to point out any differences in their beliefs. The hurdle though is when others refuse to accept those differences and still insist on lumping with the collectivetrust me, I do it all the time. It seems like a huge hurdle at first, but you get used to it. The only way to break through those stereotypes is to confront them one at a time.
I agree.. That's how I won over you, Rad, and getit...
And, the distinct differences between the two definitions are .... ?
Differences that you really would have no interest in understanding considering the fact that you think it's all rubbish. I'm not trying to sound condescending toward you, but given the history of our conversations you appear to consistently lump all believers together. With this understanding that I have gained based on our interactions, I wouldn't want to bore you or waste either of our time with explaining the difference.
There is a difference betwen the two, for those that will accept the difference between the two. You have shown that you see no difference in any individual believer and how and why they believe, so there would be no point in me even remotely trying to explain it to you.
LOL. Because you can't explain the difference. It has absolutely nothing to do with me.
ATM, hello, if there is something bad there must be something good. We live in dual system as we already know it. God loves A Trouble Man so much weather he accept it or not.
What if there is nothing bad or good? I understand you need to feel loved by a father figure, but apparently ATM doesn't need to. Why must you project or needs and wants onto others? Do you assume we all need the same thing that you need? It seems rather immature to me.
ATM cannot accept the love from what doesn't exist (to him).. Even if God does exist then ATM wouldn't want the love of a "tyrant"
Let me first say i'm new here and i'm only here because of Robertr04,about the topic of "the BRIDE of christ is a female,not a church or a city..
Most of chapters in the BIBLE are in parable,in other for some of you to understand,you really need to connect with GOD to get the answer about the same topic,i'm here because i'm the woman who represent the BRIDE of christ.
I'm the real bride i'm not a city or a church and i'm well alive on planet earth. I've observed so many people all over the globe,i watched the dreams and visions of people in most religion sites as well in youtube..I also know which of some of their dreams and visions are true/false,i'm well in disguise even if any of you try to find me you'll not find me..Finding me will lead to disaster and my powers are too powerful for planet earth, and i do not use my powers for fun or for any kind of show or for fame..
I was really impressed by robert discussion about me..I'm the Queen of heaven and Queen of earth,galaxies and other universes you guys don't know about..You'll not see me or find me, i know my real son Jesus died in the hand of wicked men,if i wish to show myself to the world not only no one will not be able to touch me or hurt me, no one will be able to do the same to me as they did to my son by killing him on the cross..
Keep in mind it's for the good of all of you for me to stay in my secret place,because i'm in control of the weather as well as tornado/storm/hurricane/sunami/earthquake and much more..I'm mother nature and i'm WISDOM that Salomon spoke about in the bible, most of the important verses in the bible on every chapters it's in parables. One more thing feel free to copy and paste to as much people you know to open their eyes..I'm the woman in revelation chapter 12, the DEVIL has been DEFEATED and ...................................................................................................................................................
I'm not the mary that give birth to my Jesus,i'm the real deal. Every woman you see other people/races are worshipping in the image of a woman represent me in different look and shape,people who are worshipping me don't know if they're worshipping a woman GOD instead of a man GOD... The God of abraham is a real GOD and he's waiting for me,i'm the GOD of MOSES/JACOB/DAVID/SALOMON/JOSEPH. Do not look for me or try to find me,but reach the GOD of abraham to find out more about me.
I'll see you if you make it to................................................................................................................
Have a wonderful day.Ahhhhhhhh.... finally.... some sanity in this place.
To Mr Rabgix just say we leave the bible out , let's say what proof we have to lead up to its credit, you may live in a domain did it just come about by chance , some one design and built your structure you inhabit, next , how do we know because there is a history or records that gives proof of its existence ,would you agree ? say for example you or some one want to care for exotic fish can you maintain there life in your home like you do gold fish , there existence depends on the right care and warmth ,would you agree? Look at the earth it is greater in size then we are ,the stars have order. The sun Stands in a perfect position just so , inches to close will burn us up , inches away will freeze us to death. Who created the ability of gravity , the ability under our feet nothing floats out off the earth into space,just as we have the ability to care for our family we must agree that some one greater than ourselves take care of our existence far better then we can , we can not return the live force that keeps our body breathing , we can not promise us the next day of life, Why because we did not create man !would you agree that man can create robots ! With only a percent of brain capacity , Yet there is a greater person with unlimited ability to create many things even you .
argument from incredulity/ignorance.
In other words "I can't think of another way that any of this could have happened, isn't it amazing, it must be god"If you want truth it is possible to get , but if you are comfortable with anything else that is your choice and your right, but remember we are not perfect and we can make a wrong choice , little or big this is possible , let no one steal your treasure , or you can give it away by giving up on the real possibility of truth.
"truth" is verifiable, provable and testable. "I can't explain this because I haven't studied under the guise of anything else than my already believed religion" is not.
I can agree or understand that you where born into your faith I just want to give you example your parents provide for you as an infant , your food and cloths ,and they took you where they went and worship, they love you I am sure , but you are a full adult now are you still wearing the clothes they bought you from a infant, ? No you out grew them , do you still feed on infant food , no you are fully grown needing more then milk, your spiritual life is just as important to adjust ,you are and adult who has to make decisions for your own life ,your parents can not be responsible for you making good or bad decisions when it comes to the law of the land,, your spiritual health is just as important , it can save your life , or you can die forever. Meaning the truth will set you free as you come to the accurate knowledge of truth. It will give you a future after the earth is cleaned off.
I don't HAVE a faith. And nothing else you said made any kind of sense whatsoever in the topic at hand.
If you do not have faith JMF, but you believe what you cannot see and try to understand what you want to understand, then, is that not faith?
If KnT believes in creation and does not believe what you believe as scientists may try to explain in their theories which are many times proven wrong when true faith in God brings about miracles in man and healing cancer and other death threatening illnesses in this life as in what I have experienced, and the truth about NDE's or near death experiences which you refuse to believe yet many have proclaimed to be true with some honest doctors and scientists dumbfounded as they see inexplicable results against what science brings to man, does this not make your belief system limited to what it takes you, to only as far as what your mind tells you to believe, not what is beyond your heart and spirit which extends into eternity or immortality?
Be careful of how the evil one can deceive you into believing only in yourself as you care more for yourself than others, refusing to be humble yourself to God who created us all.
How do you explain Eve and Adam's folly when they fell into Satan's trap to believe more on themselves that they may become greater than God?
Until when do you think your mind and your brain may last if you do not believe that you have a spirit in you created by God before you were born in this life?There was no adam and eve. There was no garden of eden. I do not have faith in anything that I cannot prove exists. There's a difference between trust, belief and blind faith. There is no good reason to believe in something that is unproven.
I hear what you are saying explain to me if you can how did you come into existence ,do you have a family tree, because every human was born by a man and women help. ,explain the words dust you are and dust you will return , scientist have proven that our makeup is from dirt, next we die , the curse of disobeying God still effects us today would say that's not real? But what's more important is the cure for getting rid of all our problems it has paid to undo the damage of death sickness and pain the time for it to benefit is on Gods time table not mans , Satan controls all government here and his is about up ,what you see now his rulership not the true God Satan is the ruler of this system he offered it to Jesus ,when he was here on earth Jesus declined the offer , Rather you want to hear it or not the truth has been spoken.
There is no truth in anything you just said. You have no evidence for any of that nonsense.
No scientist do not say we are made of dust or dirt. Everything in the universe is made from the same base materials; see Periodic Table and Standard Model.
That's nothing more than a bedtime fable.
You should probably seek professional help for that problem.You are not updated on science ! But it is easier for you to say not true then to prove why you say it is not true. That does not have any weight to what you are saying. At this point you do not believe that you even exist
That is a blatant lie. You would still be living in a cave if not for what science and theories have provided for you. Sitting there denouncing it all is the epitome of dishonesty and denial.
No, you have not experienced miracles from God healing cancer and other illnesses, that is pure baloney.
That is a laugh. Scientists are not dumb-founded by the claims of the delusional, they understand the delusion just fine.
Evil one?
How childish.
A fairy tale?
I'm sorry you can't think of any other way we could be here. But I and many others can, mostly it comes from education. For instance the sun is not set in place, it's revolving around the centre of our galaxy at an astonishing speed and that galaxy is moving through space at an astonishing speed. An inch closer or farther from the sun would make no difference at all. Mars once had an atmosphere and it's a lot farther from the sun than the earth.
The order of the universe and the speed as you have mention is still a witness to someone greater then man , how much does man know about all species and living things , he will never know all because of his short life span ,and he really only knows so much about space , because his capacity of the mind is 10 percent or less ,you believe in what man can do in in knowledge , We must certainly give credit to someone greater who made us possible and all the things we enjoy in life today ,
A great deal more than any scriptures has ever revealed.
That is a myth, we use our entire brains, not 10 percent or less.
Then, we would be giving credit to evolution.If we could use 100 percent man would not have to ask questions from each other, and death would not be our enemy ! we would be living in a trouble free world, and the earth would be a paradise., this was the purpose for perfects humans in the beginning of our existence, that purpose will still be carried out rather we live to see or not , with God all is things are possible.
The only phrase I remotely understood is with God all is possible
This is true , all is possible through him ,even if it seems delayed to those who are waiting for the real life, he will be on time, many are waiting ,many have made the needed changes to qualify as citizens of the near future paradise ,many like this world as it is they like the degrading life styles, crime ,unfair treatment, riches that they have made their god! ,and to add abuse of children , these will have no part of the future citizenship of God's Goverment that is in power at this time, the problem is many do not want change, and so they will stay blind until the great day of cleaning the earth off, he has said he desires no one to be destroyed he would want all men to come to an accurate knowledge of truth , so they can apply and make the needed changes, many refuse , they feel they are the highest of human law, guess what ,surprise we have been the stage of many onlookers that is in the heavenly domain, all things are seen and all things behind doors are or in secret is not hidden , So what does that mean we have to account for our choices good or bad , why because we want to keep living and he is the only one who makes this possible,now or in the future,
The order of the universe and the speed as you have mention is still a witness to someone greater then man , how much does man know about all species and living things , he will never know all because of his short life span ,and he really only knows so much about space , because his capacity of the mind is 10 percent or less ,you believe in what man can do in in knowledge , We must certainly give credit to someone greater who made us possible and all the things we enjoy in life today ,
First you tell me it's amazing how God has put the sun in a static position and then when I explain that it's moving you tell me it's amazing how God made the sun move. Which is it?
Of course it's witness to something greater than man, Man didn't create the universe. Why does it have to be created?Why does your house have a builder? I never saw any building just evolved , shelter has a builder, this planet is our home for humans. Why are you not on mars living.? Or any other planet , because you only have access to this planet to live. You believe in yourself and I believe in you as a human I have never before seen you yet if someone told me not to believe in you what would it be right to conclude that you do not exist, when there is clear proof you exist.
If god made this planet solely to create humans to live in it, why is the overwhelming majority of it unfit and incapable of sustaining human life?
Was the trees in my back yard made by man? Nope, but there they are.
To Radman ,for your reasons you are satified with your believe in the subject , and that is your right, but we all know if there was a bag of money sitting in your back yard would you say I will leave it there because I have no proof where it came from , it does not exist because I have no proof that is money , and some one else comes along and examines it takes and enjoys live with it ,small example but you are missing a greater treasure than money
Okay, let's get this straight.
You tell me that everything needs to be built by someone.
I show you that a tree can grow on it's own.
You switch to a money tree tell me I wouldn't know I had a money tree if I had one?
Stay one topic much?Notice I never said money tree, and a tree start from a seed or another clipping of another tree ,we have many plant nurseries , and I was using that as an example , I am still on the subject,
Tree's grow on their own without human intervention. No builder required.
"I think that I shall never see
A poem lovely as a tree.
A tree whose hungry mouth is pressed
Against the earth's sweet flowing breast;
A tree that looks at God all day
And lifts her leafy arms to pray;
A tree that may in summer wear
A nest of robins in her hair;
Upon whose bosom snow has lain;
Who intimately lives with rain.
Poems are made by fools like me,
But only God can make a tree."
Joyce KilmerWow, even with your new sock puppet, your copy paste skills of irrelevant material have improved substantially. Well done.
Has anyone noticed a bag of money missing?
That is an argument from incredulity.
That is because religions have stifled, denounced and prohibited the reason and rationale of scientific thought for centuries and have kept the majority of the planets population in abject ignorance. Your first question on this post was hard evidence of that.yes you are correct about religion and the many poisons it has caused all humans ,but religion alone is only part of the problem , people make religion and help give it part of its power, like for example the pope he did not choose himself , the real power behind them is no other then satan the resister of the true God, when Jesus was hear he declined his offer to rulership , because it would give worship to satan ,the earth now as you see it is not what God had in mind for us humans , if things had went right in the beginning this earth would be a global paradise , but that does not mean that it will never happen , time was delayed to proof a point do we really need our creator to help us attain his first plan for us , or do we want to continue in this world where all these Rulers today are ready to use nuclear power on all human life,
I have no idea what you're talking about.
But, you did make some sense in the first 15 words of your post.The truth is never against itself , what is not understood is yes religion is a problem ,just as counterfeit money is a problem , there are real and true hearted people doing the right things in life, and yet there. Are others who like the earth contaminated as you see today.
well you can not talk to a Spanish person unless you learn his language nor can he talk to you ,if you speak Chinese ,I well understand you , but you will not want to understand me. For your own reasons .
Not the best argument in this type of thread.. Even with some believers, this doesn't hold up because you cannot turn to God as the first and last answer
Evidence of the truth in God in Jesus in is our being, the crucified Christ in us, in Laminin. Why I believe so, it's because of my faith in Jesus, the Son of God, that the Holy Spirit has revealed to me this truth in prayer, as many true believers may connect to this truth.
The more we use our pride, our intellect, and our mind, the more we get lost because if God is spirit and beyond our mind, how can you understand God if you only use your brain or your mind which will just perish when we die, right?
Let us not be deceived by Satan and evil in our pride. The more we become prideful, which like all things in this life are passing, the more we satisfy Satan. He, from the beginning, is a liar, as Jesus has said. Anything that is on this life is a creation of God or a product of the God-given talents in man.
God in Jesus wants us to die from our pride, die from our sins, so that we can better see the truth in our being, by being humble to God who is in spirit. Blessings as we KJOH
... and no longer needed God. They picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him. The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."
God listened patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well! How about this? Let's have a man making contest."
To which the man replied, "OK, great!"
But God added, "Now we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."
The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.
God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!"
Why do do people accept things from Science as fact when the same Scientists used to claim the world was flat?Science does not answer every known question regarding life, the origins of things nor how certain things work. However, scientific research, testing, and confirmation has come closer to providing a lot of answers of what was previously unknown. The technology that we have now actually are filling in the blanks of how things work
It's not at all surprising to read one of the lamest logical fallacies coupled with one of the lamest fabrications about scientists contained within the same post.
But, it always makes for a good chuckle.It was scripture and Christianity that told people the earth was flat. At the time claiming anything else could get one executed. Galelao was under house arrest and banned from suggesting that the entire universe doesn't revolve around the earth.
Great example ! , they believe in what's created ,not what caused it to be created ! Yet they live in a house or shelter , they believe in its builder or designer, there minds can not go past this planet into the heavens , that there is some one bigger ,better , and mightier then humans, some one who can create and give it the power of life to breath, man can make robots and give it programs of mechanics to work, talk, walk, and program it to think on command , but what it can not do is become alive and produce another Robot, and remember God created it first ,and man with their robots only have copied God's design and idea's , many never want to give him credit for his greatness in what he has created.! Instead if they could they would steal his patent !
Okay then a different example. Did you know not too long ago doctors used Insulin Shock Therapy (Insulin Coma's) to try to cure schizophrenia (1970's)? Doctors would put patients in coma by giving them repeated large doses of insulin...
Besides, do you really want god not to exist and therein prove your ancestors were monkeys?Did you know people eat little wafers and drink bits of wine to represent the eating of flesh and the drinking of blood?
And, unlike Insulin Shock Therapy, folks today still practice pretend cannibalism.
Advocating one way or the other the existence or non-existence of gods from want is purely a selfish act.
Our ancestors were not monkeys.How do you know we don't come from Monkeys? If you don't believe in god then what? Aliens created the human race? The theory of evolution-aka Monkeys. Because really that's what I'm hearing here.
You don't have to believe in god but if you don't that pretty much means aliens created us or the human race evolving from monkeys...since there is no proof you could say that you put faith in the idea that you came from monkeys...or aliens.
Besides as a scientific person shouldn't you be open minded to the idea of cannibalism? Not that you want to eat your "paarsurrey" just be open to the idea or understand that various cultures might have different beliefs? Or are you one of those scientists that burned people at the stake for believing the earth was round?actually, the church was the one that burned people at the stake for heresy. Do you know nothing of history?
Your right I misspoke. But I find it interesting that for a atheist that openly likes to spark discussion you decided to only address my lack of historical knowledge and not talk about your religion of the Holy Banana?
Because while some might claim my posts are whimsical (and in truth they somewhat are) they are no more silly then other ideas....
Religion is defined as: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe...you could also throw faith in the mix...since Atheists have faith that god doesn't exist (no proof-hence faith) that your beliefs are in fact a religion.
To further my messing with atheist, I'd like to pose a question to you folks.
Do you believe in aliens? Because as an atheist you have to. If the world is a scientific one, and not one based off of religions then the Universe is Infinite. If the human race and earth are only here by chance then...there's a chance (even a small one) that life exist beyond our galaxy.
Now since the Universe is never ending that means not only does life exist but it's only a mathematical chance that eventually life would develop similar to that of humans...and thus it's only a mathematical chance (albeit a very small chance) that somewhere in the infinite universe that besides having a planet with human on it, there is also a planet where humans called the same names as our are having the same discussion.
Sounds silly doesn't it?
Religion however....(depending on which religion you subscribe to) wouldn't have to subscribe to such a silly and whimsical notion....the Universe could simply end where god decides it does.have you ever met an atheist in your life? I ask because you don't seem to know anything about what an atheist is, what they believe, how evolution works, why atheists continually discuss religion and what they actually DO believe in. You, on the other hand, have Banana man as a role model. How fortunate for you.
So you don't believe in aliens but do believe in gods with magical powers? Okay!
I actually never said what I believe in or what religion I am...I was arguing for Christianity. But that doesn't mean I subscribe to it...I can tell you I am not a fan of religion as an organization. As in the Church.
Nor have I discounted the idea of aliens...religion doesn't discount the idea of aliens....depending on your religion...just because it doesn't talk about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
So...what form of atheism do you believe in? I'm guessing your don't subscribe to the Holy Church of the Banana? aka coming from Monkeys. What created humans?We get lots of that here, Seth. No need to apologize though. Your reference to the Holy Church of the Banana is cute and is no worse than some named after other mythical religious figures. Did you make it up yourself?
I'm an atheist agnostic. I lack a belief in a god (although I was raised to be a baptist). My atheism has NOTHING to do with my belief about where the world came from. You're using a lot of loaded language here. Nothing "created" humans. They evolved. And I don't know ANYONE atheist or believer who believes that humans came from monkeys. That's not what evolution says. I mean, you do know that, right? Evolution doesn't study the origin of life. Evolution studies how life EVOLVED once it was already present. You know that too, right?
Still avoiding the question I see...so what did humans evolve from?
Apes-Monkeys...sure they are technically different but in essence you should of known what I was talking about.
no, humans did not evolve from monkeys. We share a common ancestor with them. Or is it just a "gods" design that we share over 95% of our DNA with Chimps? What, did he run out of creativity somewhere along the process when he decided to "create" his crowning glory?
I'm concerned that you can't tell that's a cartoon, which is not scientifically accurate.
You are talking about the CHLCA... basically.
And honestly, no one knows.
Still DNA evidence indicates that it was around 9 million years ago... I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
So no, there is no direct point to fossil to say "This is the missing link"Even if there are yet holes in our knowledge of how we came to be, it's still cohesive in comparison to the absolutely glaring plot holes in the Bible.
ATTN: Creationists! Were Adam and Eve created at the same time after all the animals, or was it Adam then animals then Eve? Because the Bible says it was both (Genesis 1 for the former, Genesis 2 for the latter)!not to mention that in Genesis 2, god was looking for a suitable helper for adam - and he presented him with ALL of the animals FIRST - before ever THINKING to make another human being, let alone a woman. who woulda thunk?
I wasn't comparing one theory to another... I was simply answering.
Yes I have a pretty good idea how a creationist will respond to the answer, yet it doesn't change the answer.
If everyone is going to argue, do it honestly.
"Even if there are yet holes in our knowledge of how we came to be, it's still cohesive in compa...." Oh look the atheist is showing why their religion is more correct then other ideas.
I guess that's why they call it a THEORY of evolution....you have to put FAITH it in for it to be real. You have to have faith in your religion that somewhere...out there...buried somewhere in the Earth is proof that we came from the same source as monkeys.
Poke holes in the bible all you want or talk about the evils of organized religions (and I'll probably join you)...but what I'm really seeing here is people of a certain faith arguing against people of another faith."Theory" in scientific terms doesn't mean it's something tentative; in fact, a scientific "theory" is the next step below a scientific "law." To put it in perspective for you, heliocentrism (the fact that the Earth revolves around the sun) is a scientific "theory" also.
In scientific terms:
Fact: In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as “true.” Truth in science, however, is never final and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow.
Hypothesis: A tentative statement about the natural world leading to deductions that can be tested. If the deductions are verified, the hypothesis is provisionally corroborated. If the deductions are incorrect, the original hypothesis is proved false and must be abandoned or modified. Hypotheses can be used to build more complex inferences and explanations.
Law: A descriptive generalization about how some aspect of the natural world behaves under stated circumstances.
Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.It all has to do with personal standards of proof.
Evolution has more solid proof than creationism. It is more scientifically accurate. It is the most scientifically logical explanation of how we got here that exists at present.
There is absolutely no evidence, whatsoever, that any part of Genesis is correct. In fact, there is plenty of evidence that Genesis ISN'T correct. So much evidence, in fact, that most of the people who follow the religion that Genesis was originally created for do not take it as literal.
If you want to believe in the Christian God, then that's fine. Just don't try to justify that it carries and equal burden of proof as scientific theories... it simply doesn't.
It is perfectly acceptable to believe in things with no proof. I believe in lots of things with no proof... however it would be silly for me to assert that my beliefs were just as accurate as theories that had been established by individuals with much more training, education and research on a subject than I could ever hope to understand or possess.
In short, consider yourself an expert on your own beliefs... trying to argue science from a religious standpoint is like trying to paint a house with a banana.
And no, atheism is not a religion. Common belief that something doesn't exist does not a religion make... or everyone who didn't believe in a tooth fairy would be said to belong to the "Church of the non-belief of flying body part collecting tarts"
"Theory" in scientific terms doesn't mean it's something tentative; in fact, a scientific "theory" is the next step below a scientific "law." To put it in perspective for you, heliocentrism (the fact that the Earth revolves around the sun) is a scientific "theory" also."
Just going to post two websites in response to .....
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-scientifi … d-explode/
http://www.dvice.com/archives/2011/07/5 … scient.php
Hello, Julie!
Another confused believer?
Actually, there are very high probabilities of many worlds bearing life forms within our own galaxy, let alone the billions of other galaxies out there.
Yeah, pretty much.
Simple. The evidence uncovered shows that humans and monkeys evolved from a common ancestor that was neither human or monkey.
Then, I can spend more time reading up on topics like evolution and common ancestry.
That just begs the question, who created the aliens, and then who created the creators of the aliens and then it's turtles stacked all the way down?
I hate to tell you this, but you've been misinformed of the facts.
Or, more precisely, neither.
As a diner or as a three course meal?
Are you he from another culture?
The earth is round?Wait. What?
Wait. What?
Wait... What?
So basically, all scientists beamed down from the planet of the apes and they burn people at the stake for believing the world is round... Gotcha. One question.... do they eat the people after they burn them at the stake? Or is that unrelated?
Why would that be a problem, even if it were true (which it isn't, as I'm sure you know unless you were poorly educated)?
Anyway, what does that have to do with the original question ?I guess it was an attempt to answer a question with a question. The original question was "Why do Christians use the Bible as evidence in Theological discussion"...and I guess the answer would be faith.
Atheism is a religion...an act of faith that god doesn't exist.
You can't prove that God does or doesn't exist. Christian who use the bible as evidence of god existing are no different then atheist going on no facts (thus faith) that god doesn't exist.Except proof of reality isn't a case of "innocent until proven guilty"; rather, it's "guilty until proven innocent."
There is no need to prove the nonexistence of something, because it doesn't exist. The only people who must offer proof are those who are making the claim that something exists. There is no Evidence of Existence vs. Evidence of Nonexistence, because it's always been Evidence of Existence vs. Cross-Examination.That sounds good in theory Zelkiiro but whether something is proved or not doesn't make it real or not. How long was it until humanity was able to prove the existence of germs? Did germs not exist until we were able to prove their existence?
Lets take something that we can't prove exists by seeing it, but we can prove it exists by seeing it's effects. Gravity. I don't think anyone here would argue that gravity doesn't exist, we can clearly see it's effects. But no matter how great the electron microscope is, nobody can see gravity, just it's effects.
Same with religions. You may not be able to see their god, but you have to admit that some peoples lives have been dramatically changed by an "encounter" with that god.no, you have people that CLAIM to have life-changing experiences that they choose to attribute to whichever god they subscribe to. That doesn't mean that it WAS a god that did it at all.
atheists don't have a faith that god doesn't exist. Again, I ask you - have you ever met an atheist? Do you know what atheist means?
A-theist - Without Theism.
Atheists LACK a belief in a god. They do not (for the most part) assert positively that no gods exist.Yeah...and since god can't be proven to exist or not exist, atheist go on faith that he doesn't.
faith [feyth] Show IPA
noun
1.confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.belief that is not based on proof:
And since your so sure atheism isn't a religion perhaps you should tell these guys...
http://firstchurchofatheism.com/
And in answer to your question...,yes I know what an atheist is (and i know some).
a·the·ist [ey-thee-ist] Show IPA
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
" They do not (for the most part) assert positively that no gods exist." Actually they do assert positively that no gods exist...are you sure you know what an atheist is?
As I'm sure you've been told before, atheism is not a faith.
I'm sure you don't believe in the tooth fairy, but I don't say your believe in the absence of the tooth fairy is a faith. Should I say you're a member of the faith that doesn't believe in the Yeti?Excellent point Marissa...Evolutionists believe in the Yeti...the missing link...big foot. Essentially they are searching for that one link that shows we evolved from primates...they haven't found proof so it's a theory...yet they are sure it exists. So they have faith (belief not based on proof) that it exists.
I know I've posted the link before Marisa but since your having a hard time grasping that atheism is a faith, let me drop a quote from the First Church of Atheism's website.
"The First Church of Atheism wants you to pursue and cherish your realistic beliefs without interference.....
Now pay attention. 14 words into that quote it drops the word.....*ready for it* (drum roll please) belief. *Gasp (and que the woman fainting in the background). Belief...
According to my religious belief's (which I won't share here) tooth fairies don't exist (que fairy falling dead somewhere). You might as well of said Shiva the Hindu deity (also one I don't believe in due to my faith)...but since you can't actually prove that Shiva, Christian God, Buddha, the Tooth Fairy, or the Theory of Evolution or the lack of a god (atheism) exist or don't exist it makes it a thought based on faith.
While you might argue that there is more proof for Atheism or Theory of Evolution those concepts are relatively new and you'll find more people accepting of the thought of a supreme being over the thought that we came from primates.
But if you want to think your nothing more then an animal and that your great x100 grandfather swung through the trees and has a fetish for bananas then I will respect your faith.no one is this ignorant intentionally. I'm pegging troll, which means it's time for me to take reality elsewhere.
Oh believe me Julie, there are such folk!
yes, but the true trolls are the ones that are not only willy ignorant, but they turn around and make baseless assumptions based on nothing and tell you how stupid YOU are for not agreeing with them
Then are you going to mark yourself a troll?
Your only argument was to define atheism as without theism (which is you think about it...it is pretty stupid. And then you went on to add your own definition (which is flawed) which was..." They do not (for the most part) assert positively that no gods exist."...there no for the most part about it...Atheist means the belief that god's or supreme being's don't exist.
And that for the most part would mean that your not an atheist but an agnostic...because it sounds like your not sure if god exists or not (lol or at least "for the most part"
So are you dense or a troll or in denial?how are you going to decide what something means when you're not one? Who are you to decide what atheist means - especially when I gave you the definition from the LATIN. A-theism literally means without theism. I don't know why that's so difficult to understand.
Christians were called atheists by the Roman Pagans because they were "without theism" in the roman pantheon.
I do not assert that no god exists, and neither does any other atheist I know. I simply lack a belief in one and believe that it is impossible to ascertain whether or not any god exists with any certainty.
But since you want to just attack me personally and not discuss history, science or religion in any real, demonstrable way, then there's really no point in conversing with you.Okay so Mklow believes that regardless of what words mean if a person believe it...it makes it so. You've never worked at a mental hospital have you?
Well I sited a definition...you claim that whatever people believe in true..and well maybe you should work at a mental hospital to open your views a bit.
I once heard of a patient that would wrap turds up in napkins and eat them. He thought they were a rare delicacy...I guess you'd be the type to take his word for it and eat the turd?No, I said I would have to take their beliefs to be true, not what they believe in is fact. In other words if someone tells me they are atheist, I have to take them at their word that they are, in fact, an atheist. If you read my post fully, you should be able to comprehend that.
But just in case you can't, I will use your example of the friend that at turds wrapped in napkins;
I would have to take his word that HE believes it is a delicacy, not that it IS a delicacy.
Do you see the difference?
Ever hear Bill Clinton's famous quote on "is?"
"It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is" Bill Clinton was using the word "is" to define itself. Just like your a-theism-lacking theism. Get it?
"I do not assert that no god exists, and neither does any other atheist I know." Then your not an atheist, your an agnostic. An atheist believes that NO GOD's exist, whereas agnostics don't conform to religion and believe the God's are probably unknowable.
Let me drop a few definitions (I know I've dropped them in past but truly read them)
ag·nos·tic [ag-nos-tik] Show IPA
1.a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. Synonyms: disbeliever, nonbeliever, unbeliever; doubter, skeptic, secularist, empiricist; heathen, heretic, infidel, pagan. (Because you assert that god's exist but don't believe is any one religion then this is you)
a·the·ist [ey-thee-ist] Show IPA
noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
(If you didn't believe in any god's then this would be you)
There's no personal attack there...I was simply curious if your purposely being dense, are ignorant of the the meaning of certain words or close minded to the point of not listening to reason.
My definitions were straight out of the dictionary.
And the true atheists I know believe that no gods exists at all. Not a single god exists, period.
P.S. Your quote : "how are you going to decide what something means when you're not one? "
It's called a dictionary.JM does not state that the true nature of God is unknowable. She states that based on information available there is not enough evidence to support the existence of God. She has never said it is unknowable. She would identify more as atheist because she simply doesn't believe God exists. But she is open to the idea that God could exist if proof can be provided. then again even in having proof, JM would not follow God.
But being open to the idea of god existing wouldn't make her an atheist, it would make her an agnostic. (also I'm curious is your name Deepes Mind a reference from the Douglas Adam books?)
I disagree with that. Being open to the idea doesn't make her an agnostic. Agnostics assert that there is absolutely no possible way of knowing the truth for sure so they choose not to even think about evidence one way or the other. Atheists simply lack the belief in God and based on the evidence (or lack thereof) are certain that God does not exist. You have some who will outright deny the existence of God no matter what, but there are those who are willing to change their minds if given sufficient evidence. This is in contrast to some believers that as a result of their personal relationships and experiences will not accept any notion that God does not exist.
No.. My name is actually a reference to a book that I'm working on.One small change. I am not certain that no god exists. No sufficient evidence has been presented for one, and should any evidence be presented, I an happy to look at it.
Well I can see there is no point arguing this further if you want to call yourself an atheist regardless of what the true definition is...you go right ahead. Just stay away from dictionaries.
and by the way, your definition of Atheism contradicts what you are saying and reaffirms what Marisa said, which was Atheism is not a belief it is a lack of belief.
Yes JMcFarland peg me a troll for "man fears what it doesn't understand" and you seem to lack a understanding of certain words...religion, faith, belief, and most importantly theory.
I understand your angry at religion for some reason and are insulted by the idea that atheism is a religion. But guess what...rebel against the idea all you want...it's a religion ;-)
As I posted the UK has a Church of Atheism (lol no comment from you here?)
Don't be afraid to answer.
If you truly wanted to be of a non-faith then you could simply say your non-religious and set aside the issue of god..but instead you go on faith that god doesn't exist.
PS.Buddhism is atheistic in the sense of denying that there is any overarching deity such as the Creator.Maybe I should open a forum topic about why some atheists are in denial?
You (the UK and anyone else) can call atheism a religion all you want, but that doesn't make it so.
You can put lipstick on a pig but...well, you know the rest.Hello, atheism is belief system "there is not God". Atheistic religion is registered in USA for long time.
There is no missing links. You've been feed a complete lie. A simple google search could rectify this problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tr … _evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionHo ho ho! Is this not again a theory? When someone admits it is a 'possibility,' that means he has not seen it happen and his contention is nothing more than a theory, and has NEVER been proven. A similarity of some features does not prove anything, much more that "we came and evolved from apes?" Apes and chimpanzees are totally inferior to man, and this a fact, for each one is different from the other. Do they talk intelligently as humans do? Come on let's not fool ourselves and others with our minds and human intelligence. We should know and understand better that humans are TOTALLY DIFFERENT BEINGS THAN APES or PRIMATES.
If your belief system leads you to something that you haven't seen yet believe, as how apes can evolve into humans, then is it possible that humans can also, vise versa, become apes or primates?
Remember my dear friends, "with God, all things are possible." Only God can do this, as He may allow it in the afterlife, however He may see it fit, while in man, many things are impossible.
If you research more on generational sins and curses, you will see how sins of man from disobedience and his hardheadedness has brought forth the same bad fruits or evil seeds that have to pass on to the following generations.
Both humans and apes are living together as we can see in this planet and in this life. If your human understanding is limited to what your mind tells you, have you not ventured further from beyond your mind is a spirit that lives in you, yes, in each of us, and this spirit may tell you more and reveal you more what your hardened mind and our pride refuses to understand.
Sorry for the word hardened but in reality, as I understand it in my spirit, it is in our pride that we have a hardened mind, as Satan has a hardened soul that's why he was cast out by God from the heavens and stay in his realm, the planet earth that we know we exist and co-exist with evil and good spirits.
Anyone who is ruled by pride and loves more things in this life than God, the creator of all things - where through Jesus all things were created - he is an open prey to evil. Evil has no power over us if we do not allow him to rule us in our pride. In Jesus, whom evil fears most, no evil deception can prevail or in Jesus, as He is the fullness of the Deity in us, as Seth Winter may be saying.
How can one see the truth in Jesus if he REFUSES to open his heart and spirit to His truth? I pray that more people like you Rad will see His truth, that more may be saved, Amen.Evolution can and is seen in bacteria and flies. It can be demonstrated. I can be seen in the colour of our skin and the ways in which humans adapt to their environment. I could lay it all out for you, but I don't think you are interested in leaning.
You asked for the missing link and I've given evidence to them all. So you try something else. I'm sorry your unable to understand human evolution, but really not that hard to understand that we have a common ancestor with apes. They don't have our intellect because it's not what they needed to survive. We also don't have their strength and yet our genetic makeup is almost identical.
Have you ever wondered how a zebra and a horse could mate successfully? How about a lion and tiger? Most likely not, I can't help you.
I can't help you with any of your delusions.WOW! Astonishing incredulity. So woefully misinformed only to be rivaled by the high level of indoctrination.
It has a very low probability of success, that is, to suggest you read up on evolution before attempting to refute it.
Evolutionists don't believe in a missing link. Evolutionists also don't believe people are descended from monkeys or even apes. Your knowledge is about a century out of date - perhaps you should actually read evolutionary theory before you try to argue against it. I know your Banana thing is meant to be whimsical or jokey but it just makes you sound uneducated.
Besides, evolution and atheism are not indivisible. There are very many Christians who believe in evolution. They see the Bible version as a parable, not as fact. There are plenty of other examples in the Bible of stories that aren't meant to be taken literally.
The vast majority of atheists are not a member of that church. Personally, I think the idea behind its foundation was misguided.
There is no proof for atheism. It's not possible, because atheism is the absence of something, not the presence of anything. There is quite a lot of proof for evolution - more proof than there is for the divine creation version.
I agree that in the US, the creationists are at or near the majority. In the rest of the educated world, you'll find the percentages are very much in favour of the evolutionists, even amonst strongly religious people.Marisa, If you believe so that evolution has more proof than divine creation then I pray that you may be more enlightened through opening your heart and spirit which may give you a better understanding of God and creation.
The mind is but a product of creation, that will constantly confuse you if you refuse to believe in God or in Jesus, as the evil one may always want you to believe. Your mind limits the true power within you because material things bind you.
For as long as you remain bound by material things that do not really satisfy and may only lead to emptiness from within you, where do you go? Suppose you pick up yourself again and try to achieve success in your endeavor yet death catches up with you, then were do you think everything you may have go? Was your life, wealth and intelligence with your worries and anxieties worth all your trouble when you do not even know where you're destined to go after you die, or, perhaps, you do not even care as you have not really cared for others that much in your life time, or have you?
If you have cared for your family or your spouse, did you feel that love that made you feel better, the care and the comfort of being loved back?
Now, If many of us believe in the presence of God and in His existence, the One Great Almighty Being who created us all because we see Him in our love for others, we see Him caring for us especially so when we feel lonely and defeated, we see Hope in Him in our trials and struggle in this world and temporary life, we see His blessings abound because of our faithfulness, we see much love that comes from others because be follow and believe in His teachings, we see our load and burden lighter with Him in our prayers, we see many unexplained miracles and healing that happen, as in mine, many times in our life and continue to happen because of our faith and trust in Him, so in our love for Him and of others, we have learned to believe in the truth in His words as shared in the Holy Bible for we have seen in our hearts and spirit what others cannot see because they refuse to see in their pride, in their perceived higher intelligence yet remain blind from what they cannot see from beyond their eyes, would you not scratch your head in disbelief because you only believe what your eyes can see and what you limit your mind to perceive?
Marisa my dear, can you see what we can see? Is something blinding you that you cannot see from beyond your mind?
Where do you think you came from if you don't believe God created you? Are you striving to make a difference in other people's lives, to keep others happy while giving thanks to Him who has given us life, and giving back that love that others who love you share with you because they want to make you happy? Have u tried selflessly sharing anything good with others, how does it feel? As compared with doing something bad and selfish, how do you feel doing it? Are there no reminders or signs from God that you have to return to Him and renew in Him for He wants you back in His love and care, or would you rather not think about this and refuse to accept the realities of God's love for us and in us?
If we came from an explosion or a big bang, wow, then you must believe also in miracles, Marisa, where out of nowhere came you? How did you evolve from it?
Blessings to you Marisa as I pray that you may be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and the truth in the living in the light of Christ.
Really if you think about it no ape has produced a man ,and no man has produced a ape , in our life time ,and besides who has lived long enough to evolve to anything our life span as humans is so short that animal and plants have been known to out live us, fact is , every ,animal still produce its own group, and just think what hospital you know have delivered a human baby ape . Again this is fiction,
Which, for the sake of clarity, is stamped directly underneath the make, model and serial number...
Nothing like to silly comments from someone feigning the attempt at a serious discussion on Christianity.
Food for thought on the subject of bible ,and evolution, why is it that the word man is used to describe humans? , who made this word?' Next who gave the many animals their names , when so many have yet to be discovered , next woman ? Who gave this name? Next when ever we as humans copy us ,why is it that their creation includes a mouth, and nose,and ears even in drawings of there thoughts, there are scientist that are call Biomimetic specialist ,they study and mimics the design of plants and animals,that is how we have the airplane ,subs, and many more inventions, like the camera is based on the human eye, now they have a camera's small as an insect , these are wonderful and we are amazed at these advancements , but is it fair to take credit for some one else's Idea's and not give credit to the proper source ,humans have been claiming and not admitting ,that there is a higher source of intelligence then us, we know that their life span has to be longer and greater then all things ,because we do not live long enough.
You do understand there is more then one language right?
Yes and how is it that we can commutate with each other and come up with the same outcome (MAN)! No matter where we go on this planet.
Have you ever wondered why people native to certain areas look different then those native to another? You know, skin colour, bone structure?
I have no problem with the outer appearance of people's of different nations ,tongues ,tribes, and languages, because what we all have In common is what is under the skin, and we all have been invited to enter this planet as a guest, meaning none of us can control our being born here .there is a reason ,out of all possibilities that some one else could be in your place regardless of your color ,or to be male or female. The important thing is to be thankful for being invited , true this world has many bad things going on ,that we think we can control ,wrong again, the angelic spirit forces are in charge ,I do not like the word sock puppet ,yet that is what many have become in this world affairs, we have been invited to taste life, to make a reply to no other than satan ,Gods enemy , to prove that we do need help to guid us into a true paradise.when all God's creations will be able to live together in peace and happiness,no racial division because God has made us all. man can come together when it comes to natural disasters ,and put there hatred and race problems aside to aid and help one another ,the spirit of this heart moving feeling is call love , It is the same feeling the True God has for us , He will show us this ,in his own time ,meantime we can enjoy the sun the moon the stars, and certain freedoms of enjoyment. We all over the in tire earth ,enjoy some form of life here ,as it's been said the best is yet to come!
If evolution was impossible then we would all look the same.
it was not ment for us to all look alike ,we all are free moral agents ,what you like in food I may not ,but it is another added enjoyment of life to see color ,and enjoy a variety of foods ,with our taste buds, and example of a robot that man makes , how many will look the same ,how many will he produce that will work the same way ,that is mans evolution. God has the means to make it ,and give it life.his secret patent. I was able to read on the subject of birds and one particular is the seagull ,the design of this bird is amazing,the question was how is this bird able to stand on ice and not freeze ,we'll the answer comes from from engineers who study birds, the secret is known as countercurrent heat, that is when one tube carries warm fluids and another carries cool fluid, these heat exchangers in the legs cools the blood on its way to the feet and then warms the blood as it returns ,this is ingenious and has been adapted in human engineering to help avoid energy waste.
Why do some people have dark skin and other have light? If we all come from the same two people and evolution is impossible then why the differences in teeth, hair, skin, size, digestive enzymes and the ability to ward of frost bite?
Well if you listen to what you are saying ,you are questioning the variety of the package , yet we all have teeth, hair,skin , and the operation of our internal organs are the same. This is like me asking you why do you like buicks when you have fords also, a car is our choice to pick from , but maybe we can understand ,that our being and our existence did not come by our own choice ,we came as a babe taking on a variety of genes that would make us a variety of people ,living on this planet in different parts which we can admit to ,has a part in our skin color , if you go to Florida would you not get a suntan on the beach, if you lived in Alaska would you not have different skin texter ,just like flowers of many colors ,and we accept their worth, they are influenced by there surroundings ,like sunlight, and rain, how much is very important. so we accept the beauty of many things but is the only one that can tell you why he picked different colors of anything. I like the variety ,some people where the same color every day ,and someone would question it , because to them it may seem odd. what we can enjoy is the thought that God knew we would be happy with it,
So, if a white guy moves to Africa his skin will become as dark as Africans? There are plenty of white living in Africa but they don't start looking like Africans.
Do you know why most Europeans are born lactose tolerant?
Do you know why Europeans have light skin?
Do you know why the people in northern Canada are able to ward of frost bite?You know that is very interesting that you are very aware of human differences , and I do agree that we all have differences ,but that does not change the fact that you are man and I am woman, regardless of where I live on this planet ,I am still a human, and mind you we all have a little of each race going though us. So really can you pinpoint the day a persons race was changed ? No because many things have been done in secret, but yet we live all over the earth and accept life as it is. Anyway can you change what is already done ,God knew we would come out this way ,different skin different conditions, yet did he find it a problem no , he continued the races of men to be born ,man is the only one that finds this a problem.
And since you mention lactose problem,guess what I have this problem ! but I have to deal with it regardless of who passed it down to me. I am living for the future not the past that I had no control of.
It's not a problem at all, but it is a direct result of evolution. We've evolved to live in different conditions. Sure we are all humans, but left alone in isolation we change. Left alone long enough and we become separate species. The lion and the tiger can still produce offspring as can the zebra and horse, but the African and Indian elephant can't. Evolution.
Evolution in your believe , I have witness other races change locations to live ,there color may not change because of their genes , but their language can ,their tongue or sound of words, are affected by our environment ,you have many Hispanic people who can speak our English and not Spanish , you have dark Spanish people that look Darker then a black person, we are all mixed ,
I will ask you this question ,what will evolution do for you in the future?It takes thousands of years for changes to take place. Europeans have light skin because dark skinned people who don't get enough sun in Europe to produce enough vitamin D. Humans adapt to an environment over a long period of time. The zebra and the horse can still produce offspring but look different. Each evolved to it's environment.
Adapting is the change. Evolution is the change that was made to the species due to the adaption. I do believe in evolution, so I hope I am not less of a Christian for it.
Yes and they don't have a problem living with them ,or Africans living with whites, and surly there is a mixed race of them love and nature calls ! They are human.
Of course we are all humans and race doesn't matter, but it is a way of demonstrating evolution.
In your mind that is what you believe ,in mine I will take the proof before my very eyes ,the sun the moon the stars ,don't we all as humans enjoy a sunny day we all no matter where we stand on planet earth see this gift of love.proof of a greater mind then we can ever comprehend !
- There is no proof in your beliefs, but there is evidence in our understanding showing your beliefs are little more than childish nonsense.
There are many things that cannot be proven, but do exist. And just because people have blind faith, doesn't mean it is childish, it just means they believe in something strongly and know in their hearts it is true despite all of the criticism. The reality is we all have a blind faith in something.
Take Charles Goodyear; this is one of the most interesting stories to me. He believed that he could create a useful rubber that would change the world. Goodyear spent five years trying to find the right formula (probably longer) despite all of his family calling him crazy and going him into debt because of the years of experiments. Eventually he accidentally spilled some sulphur into a rubber mixture that was on the stove and history was made. Luckily he had to insight, the focus due to his faith to realize that the accident was actually a breakthrough.
Sometimes in life it is good to have some blind faith even if others don't understand.Oh Dear, you do see the difference don't you?
And no. We don't have blind faith in something. Blind faith is when you believe some is real despite have no testable, physical evidence of it's existence. There is nothing else like the blind faith in God, because everything else is testable. If prayer for example worked we would see example in statistics that reflect that belief, but we don't. Dark matter, dark energy and the higgs particle are things we haven't yet been able to see, but are testable and quantifiable. We have faith that these particles exist, but it's not blind faith because these things are measurable.Sure I do, I have no idea where you could be going with this. Is my faith blind that they are my biological parents? No, I happen to look just like them and If I did have a question a simple DNA test would answer that question.
But you haven't had a DNA test because you believe what your parents tell you. I know we don't have a "test" to prove God exists, but my using your parents as an example was to prove my point that we all have blind faith in something.
And btw, I have seen guys that look like me, but does that mean we are related? Maybe it just means our people evolved from the same area! lolYou must be kidding right? I thought that's where you were going with that. I have plenty of evidence that my parents are who they say they are. I look like my mom and day a lot. I have their names listed on my birth certificate. I have siblings that look like me as well. We have the same colour eyes and hair, the same nose and skin colour, and I can ask for a DNA test any time I want. I even have pictures that prove I was in the arms immediately after birth. That's trust with is not like blind faith. You can't find anything similar to your blind faith in God because there is nothing similar. All the statistical evidence indicated no God. If your trying prove the existence of God you can start with prayer. Do prayer keep Christians out of jail or hospitals? No, they are represented as expected. That's the only test I can think of and it's failed.
You are only substituting the word trust for blind faith. You have blind faith that the people who say they are your parents are in fact your biological parents.
Pictures only prove that you were in there arms after you were born, not that your parents actually conceived you. Children are adopted every day anywhere from the point of birth to days old, so that picture could just be in the hospital when you were born. A picture should not be proof of something so important should it? If I showed you a picture of bigfoot, would you believe it? I don't think so. Next...
Lots of people look alike, yet are not related, so that example holds no water. I know a family where every individual member looks nothing like the other yet they didn't question it. Genetics does not guarantee we will look like our parents, nor the opposite. Doctors nor scientists cannot predict how and why you look the way you do. We aren't there...yet.
You can ask for a DNA test any time you want, but you don't because you believe what your family tells you without proof. Try telling that to Jack Nicholson. The women he thought was his mother was actually his grandmother and his sister was in fact his mother. He only found out as an adult after a writer did some digging around and both ladies had died keeping that secret to their grave. So I don't think the "trust" thing hold water, either.
Sorry to tell you my friend, but you have blind faith.I don't think you understand. I have physical evidence and I still wouldn't bet my life on it. You and many believe have zero physical evidence and some are will to bet their life on it. I've know many adopted people who look nothing like their parents.
And I know many adopted kids that do look like their adopted parents. So what is your point?
Looks are not physical evidence. You are basing an important piece of information of your life on what people tell you, just like those that base their beliefs on what the Bible tells them.
And you say you wouldn't bet your life that your parents are in fact your parents? You choose to live your entire life with that doubt??? For someone that needs proof that things exist, that really does surprise me.I guess the fact that me and my dad are the same height, have the same colour eyes and the same eye prescription as well as the same colour hair (when we were younger), the same short legs and long torso and the same tone of skin is not enough evidence for you? We also sound the same and are both dyslexic. Need I go on? Would you like to make a wager? I'll put up $10,000 and if you'll do the same we'll get a DNA test so I can take your money.
What evidence do you have to support your claim that God exists?You keep proding me for evidence, but I have never said I have evidence, hence the reason we are talking about blind faith, so try to stay on subject.
As for your "physical evidence", this could all be explained if you are related, but not father son. Remember my example about Jack Nicholson? A ha!
As for your bet, I would never make that wager because I am pretty sure your biological parents are yours, just like I am sure my parents are my biological parents. But my point is that we take it on faith because you nor I never went and had DNA test, as most people do not.
Just the fact that you are willing to make that wager without any of your precious "scientific evidence" proves that you are basing it on a faith so strong that you could never be shaken unless 100% proven wrong, just like most people of religious faith. Are you sure you are not a closet Catholic? lolYou're confusing faith or trust with blind faith. With blind faith you have not evidence at all, you just hope. There a certain amount of evidence that has given me trust that my parents are my parents. For example, my Dad is by far the shortest of his three brothers. I have taken on that unfortunate gene.
I ask for evidence to show you that with blind faith you have none. There is evidence for dark matter, dark energy, anti-matter and gravity, not to mention the higgs particle, so we don't have blind faith these things exist because of the evidence for these things.
I was raised as a Catholic."Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing, or a deity or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion. Wikipedia"
"The word faith is often used as a substitute for hope, trust or belief. Wikipedia"
As you see, I am not the one confusing faith or trust with blind faith (to me faith and blind faith are the same because the definition is the same, like big giant).
In regards to the short gene, my father also has that, but I dodged that bullet.
I too was raised catholic.Definition of FAITH in Merriam's Dictionary
2
a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trustThe Urban dictionary
Blind Faith
Unquestioning of anything that is dictated by the religion of choice, no matter how foolish, or even if one "rule" (or "guideline") contradicts another.
Dictionary.com
Blind Faith
belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination
See the difference?I guess, but when you take it into the context of our conversation about parents then it means; believing something that is not based on facts not; believing something without understanding because you and I totally understand the concept of parents.
But you have given me a good word lesson for the day and I will further omit "blind" from blind faith.
Thank you for that because a day without learning is a wasted day.
BTW; blind faith means you believe in something without proof. Not whether or not a test exist to prove it.
Blind faith means you believe in something without proof, even in spite of the evidence that contradicts your claim.
Science produces a theory based on knowledge and attempts to prove the theory right or wrong. Once they have evidence for the theory they try to prove it wrong.
It's been 2000 years without evidence of any kind.No despite not having evidence. There is a big difference.
Having evidence to contradict a claim and not having evidence. There is the difference in your statement and mine. I never said there was evidence to contradict my belief. No one has disproved God exists.
This is an old argument. Since we believers are claiming the existence of God, the burden of proof falls on us. The reason is that we are making a positive statement of existence. you cannot prove a negative. only a positive
For instance, Prove that Rad's parents aren't his biological parentsNo, I was answering his question about the difference between his definition of blind faith and the real definition.
Not trying to pull up the old argument of prove God is real.He said believing in something despite proof it doesn't exist, which is why I said there is no evidence that God doesn't exist. Follow?
I follow what you were doing.. I was just pointing out that that statement is the opening of the whole Prove God exists or doesn't exist argument.
Just as an FYI, some of my responses aren't always me agreeing or disagreeing with something. Some of them are simply me either pushing for an elaboration of a specific point or pointing out what I am reasonable sure someone will state as an argument based on what I've read previously in other forums. my previous statement is the usual response that atheists have made when someone mentions proving that God doesn't exist
Bad example. Its possible to prove that some ones parents may not be their biological parents. If I said that my invisible purple dragon breaths fire and breathed me into existence or that we are all a part of the matrix, you could not prove that isn't true
Blind faith is believing in something without proof, not believing in something despite having evidence to contradict. There lies the difference.
Blind faith means you believe utterly and completely in something without proof.
Most atheists don't believe in anything completely and utterly without proof. They decide what to believe based on the balance of probabilities. They would say, "the best evidence I can find, leads me to believe that ..... is most likely". That is not 100% utter faith, that's just saying, it's the best conclusion I can come to right now.
We all have to make decisions as to what to believe, otherwise we couldn't function. But some of us are quite happy to live our lives on the basis of reasonable certainty, not 100% certainty. Blind faith is unnecessary.
I see where you were trying to go. The difference is that Ultimately, Goodyear used the scientific method. He asked a question, formulated a hypothesis, tested the hypothesis using different variables, found a conclusion, then retested it for verification.. Thus it wasn't specifically blind faith.. It was science.
It would be easier to find a different example of blind faith that does not have anything to do with something that science has already tested and is non religious in nature.But my point was that before he discovered the formula using science, he was going on blind faith. We have a hypothesis, so to speak, so maybe we will discover proof one day. But until then, we go on blind faith. Or maybe it is just me.
Why can't we use science as an example? The question that comes up is "Can you prove God exists?" which insinuates the question "Can He be proven by a scientific method?". Do you not think there are scientists out there trying to find evidence that God does exist?
I'm sure there are (and I, for one, am looking forward to the day that my belief is no longer a belief but a proven undeniable fact). What I was referring to is finding a different example of something else that to this day has not been proven other than God
Why would you like a different example? There are many things that have not been proven, just go to any university and you will find one hundred examples. My point was that just because someone has blind faith, does not mean they are childish or delusional, it just means what they believe in has not been proven yet.
To use an example of something that has not been discovered yet would defeat the purpose of my point.I personally don't need a different example. My statement was more general in nature. Especially considering the fact that The atheists I have encountered here would have (and Rad did before I read further) have made the same observation. That's all.
If their blind faith is in religious scriptures, they certainly can be led to be childish and delusional simply on the fact that what's written in scriptures often violates everything we know about the world around us. Yes, that would be childish and delusional.
Perhaps there are some trying to demonstrate as did the IDers that God does exist, but they always end up short. Statistics should give us something of an indication, but it doesn't.
No, there isn't. That is pure delusion.
No, that isn't reality and we all don't operate on blind faith.
Children can also believe in something strongly, but their beliefs are usually shattered by reality and the understanding they hopefully gain.
I see nothing in your example that would support your claims for faith in gods. You're confusing faith in evidence with blind faith.You see nothing because you choose not to look. Some people have the vision to follow their feelings. Some people think life is best served to live and die and not try to find answers. This just makes them feel comfortable, just like the thought of heaven makes others feel comfortable.
Me, I am a searcher of truth. If you think that is childish and delusional, then you feel that way. I live my life how I want and that is that. If people want to believe in God based on scriptures and justify their beliefs using them then there is nothing you can do about that either. In the end, we believe what we want to believe.That is one of the lamest excuses.
Yes, you are free to embrace delusion and childish fantasies, no one is going to stop you.One; That was not an excuse. I can't make an excuse for you. That was a statement. The reason why you choose not to believe is the excuse. There is a difference.
Two; You don't have to remind me that I can do what I want. I always have and I always will. No one gets in my way or can tell me otherwise.If not an excuse, then a blatant lie.
Obviously.I see that when someone does not have the same beliefs as you, you go on a slander campaign like you did with "insearchoftruth". Not one of those statements she or I said was a lie, but you choose to say that anyway from behind the comfort of your computer.
I have to assume that your lack of belief comes from an anger that you cannot control and this only shows your lack of intelligence and that you are incapable of having a clear headed debate, like most people on here.
With that said, I do appreciate all of the others on here sharing their ideas and being respectful, but as for our conversation, it has run its course.You chose to fabricate behind the comfort of yours.
One fabrication is usually followed by others.
Oh, I wasn't aware the Japanese could fluently converse with the Aborigine...
In 239 lands,and 595 languages yes people can communicate with each other through good translation ,yes we are further then you think.
I do have compassion with atheists. I was one of them and how primitive it was. The atheists were somewhere very hurts deep down in the hearts. It is mater of brainwashing and not facts. In my university we had Marxist- Soviet style of propagandist apparatus.
One may give to them trillion years and 0+0=0 still will remain the same.
Notice the picture monkey and man. Monkey and man are real then between is artistic fake.Let me guess, you teach evolution at the university?
No, I was medical student in Medical school, where Mendel, father of genetics made his experiments. We had one year of Biology in university level. I also worked in research in experimental patho-physiology at the same faculty. I have also of research publications.
My teaching was in posgraduate level.
***
I would like to add few lines. According to Law of Thermodynamics time does not produces evolution but deteriorates. Also many atheists mix adaptation with evolution. Developing living cell showed in cellular biology, occurrence of complex cell parts (protoplasm, membrane and nucleus) must develop the same time (the same moment) otherwise cannot survive.In plain English ,this means our life span dies to fast to evolve into another form, we deteriorate and die !
- Sorry, but whatever university teaches that nonsense should be shut down.
A Troubled man. It was communist's control University.
It is trouble to criticize and not know anything about the matter.Just put the name of the university here if you really want to be taken seriously.
If you started a New job and arrived on time for instruction ,and The boss told you how to keep your job, but fellow workers told you how they work there job. Who would you look to for answers to keep your Job? First the fellow worker is on the same level as you ,he can be fired !you both are trying to keep jobs unless your fellow worker does not like you! the wise thing is to continue to get instruction from the one that hired you! Because he believe that you were right for the job, anyway he knows more about you than your fellow worker , The Idea is we all are fellow humans here on earth ,in the same situations ,we depend on a gift of life source that keeps us living , and he would know more about how to keep living and what the future holds for us ,because he's the one who invited us here, many people think they have the answers and they do not, You can Pray and be heard by the true God ! And get your many answers of truth.
Sorry, life is not a job opportunity it's a journey and I personally don't need a father figure to get threw it. It appears you do and that's ok, but you need to understand that not everyone does.
True it is not ! if you do not understand the example that's fine, because some one else will ,And I could never be any ones father , maybe mother ,and I am. I am aware that my commit my not be agreed upon ,or something you may care not to hear, I am prepared for that ,and that's fine , but what ever you say when you write I will read and give you the same right and consideration you give me !
This is why I respect you and other atheists. You live your lives free of God. The difference is that you lack a belief in God. I believe that we were created, given instructions, then left to figure it out for ourselves. Of course, I have no proof of this, but it makes sense based on what I understand of some of the stuff in the Bible. God (if one exists) does not micro manage as much as some believers feel that they need him to or as much as others perceive him to.
You appear to live life without a God as well.
Good observation. I try to but not because I don't believe in God.. I do believe in God, But I believe that God created us and gave us the abilities to do things for ourselves and not depend on Him for everything. I just addressed this to ATM in a forum I created a few days ago as to why and how I came to my current level of logical belief (It's an oxymoron I know, but you get the idea). Here is the forum link.. http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/111556
Let's examine this premise for a minute. You mentioned going back to your boss for instruction on the best way to do something in order to keep your job. This is a good point in general, but typically when you go to a job, you are only given instruction on the basics of how to do your job. Your boss or trainers also Give you a manual and tells you to refer to that manual for information. But depending on your job, you are then left to do the job that you were hired for to the best of your ability because your boss is confident in you. Would you not think that going to the boss over and over again without consulting the manual first (that your job put together) would still keep that confidence in your ability?
Do you like being micromanaged at work? Most employers want workers that they do not have to micromanage
The biggest issue is that a lot of believers go straight to God for the information when the bible has the information that you need to do the things that you need to do in your life. God is not supposed to be a micro manager. He gave us the Job of living, gave us an instruction manual, and has now left us to do our jobs because (as you pointed out) he hired us and as such should have the confidence in us to work it out for ourselves.thank you for your commit ,because you understand better than I could explain it, first you have the company you are going to work for ,,and who does the manual or book belong to ? The company ,It is your helper ,but you must admit that when you first work any job you will ask questions that's not found in the book or maybe it is there and you cannot find it, ,or maybe a action on your part may not be so clear. Yes we can rely on our manual of life ,and Jesus also relied on the word because he would say (it is written ), yet he did not tell his followers go get Gods word when he gave examples on the sermon on the mount. Because he felt we could read the guide he gave us , but do we fully understand it ,when God Almighty inspired it with his secretaries in men, only he could grant the spirit to understand it ,they wrote it but many things kept secret until the appointed time ,because the word was of God's own thoughts. ,Now Jesus did not leave us alone ,in Matthew 28:20 says " teaching them all the things I have (commanded )you ,and look I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things" would you agree that if you buy something it belongs to you ? All humans in agreement with the arrangement of the father and son ,meaning the exchange of a ransom ,not of money paid for those humans who accept and understand the value of God's son ,We do not belong to our self .We are adopted by Jesus as his children because Adam and Eve cursed us with death,they have died and will not return ,We on the other hand have been cured for the future because Jesus tasted death for many ,meaning many may never experience death of our body.and if we do ,the word says death is the wages of sin , your debt has been paid in full. So Jesus did it for many with a perfect body ,and because he tasted death ,those that have died have been paid for to return , that is what the bible talks about the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteousness , we have a wonderful future ahead of us ! This is the Good news of God's Kingdom ,today we do not say kingdom ( we say Government in our language , ( remember the Lord's Prayer it has been answered ,! Thy Kingdom (Government) come your will be done on earth as in heaven, Gods will is for the earth to be heavenly .it Is still is main goal, he never gave up the idea of a earthly paradise. What he needs from us is to be willing citizens ,by applying and respecting his laws written , it is very clear people here are satisfied with the way there life is ,and there certain habits of this system, the earth now is not a paradise , and certainly unfair for many.this is soon to end ,as Jesus said the conclusion of the system of things.
There was a lot in your comment that was really profound but I wanted to focus on this statement here. I'm not sure what your employment background is (still using your same metaphor) but In customer service, the jobs usually will tell you that there are some answers that are not specifically in the Job manual, but trainers and managers tell you that in these situations you should utilize your best judgment in these situations and to usually think about how you would want the situation to work out for you. I believe that there are things that if you can't find them in the manual, then this is where you use your best judgment and do the best that you can. We make mistakes, but as long as we keep trying to do the right thing that's what counts
I am sorry for the time delay ,and thanks for reading my answer to the subject, And you are correct about at times we have to use good judgement on a Job , when there is no other solution , 1Corinthians 10:13 says that almighty God is very aware of our daily life and he says when there is a problem and it is more than he knows we can bear ,he will make the way out for us, that means he knows each one of us personally , and when we are ready , he allows himself to be found, meaning he will make it more obvious of his presence in your life. But that depends on you wanting and accepting the truth, and believe me ,it will make Good sense! Thanks for your reply
Obviously, if there was a clear detachment between the employees and the employer as you described, something is terribly wrong with that employer and you wouldn't want to work there in the first place.
Well first every job you start out working ,does not mean it is a problem From the start, and when you do encounter a problem ,to leave is not always the choice, you try to see if it is something you need to adjust to,because you could be the problem. now if you are not ,then that means you have to make a decision to stay or leave.
That would then make your employee/employer example pointless.
To you that's your choice, To me I do not give up easily .
You know Mr Radman I am not surprised at your commits ,If you herd one you have heard them all , But I will give you credit that you did read my post, And I do not expect you to understand the language that I speak ,because Maybe it is not for you and certain others to understand ,so I can not be upset with you or any other person for that. and we go back further where you did not understand than , the message has not changed and if I was not present it would still come from another, why because these are not my words They existed long before you or I ever was thought of. and next with the many opposers of the bible don't you think it would be destroyed by human hands way before our birth ,because what is in it ,either blesses us or condemns us. So you can say many things but that does not change the law of life.
My last comment was meant for trouble man , not Mr Radman,
You may feel very safe and secure in your choice to challenge the word of God.
I on the other hand have experienced many situations where the word of God was able to permit me to overcome the obstacles in my path.
I will always follow the writings as they present a safe and peaceful path to glory.
I presume that you on the other hand will always question the good and thus be constantly presented with evil.
Forest Gump said it best, "Stupid is as stupid does."So your position is that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid. How kind and non judgmental of you
That's nice. You're free to follow any myth or superstition you wish.
The only evils we're presented with here are those bleating righteous superiority in their childish indignation.
To your original post, as an atheist you may not believe in God, but plenty of atheist historians and archeologists use the bible for its historical value as it weighs up against non Christian historians and archeological finds. I am a Christian but do feel that the bibles value gets lost in the whole "it is Gods word" thing. But that's why they use it in debates. You are right though, doesn't have weight when you just don't believe in God. Takes guts to be an atheist. I was one for a while. Scared me to death.
then you weren't a very certain, good atheist.
That is entirely false, why would you lie about that?
Ah, too difficult to be honest.You believe in God because it's too scary not to? That would mean you understand that God is an illusion, but you hold onto that illusion because you're scared of reality. It's like you don't want to wake up from a dream so you sleep all day.
No, seemed to have failed at the whole atheist thing. Sorry.
I did not know where all people came from, our origin, how come we are here, where do we go when we die? Among all things that I have read and I have learned about, there is nothing more truthful than the Holy Bible.
You think the universe was created in 6 days a few thousand years ago? You think Adam was made from dust when humans are mostly water?
Even if I tell you I do believe in God's words, that if this is in the bible, and it is God's words, whom am I to question it because it is in my faith, what benefit will this be for you if you just believe in what you see, not on what is beyond of what you see, Rad Man?
Sure don't answer the question and stick to your wishful thinking. I prefer reality.
Reality is perception coupled with belief. For all you know, what our eyes can see are mere illusions, of what God allows us to see. But have you tried looking beyond what you see? Do you believe that you have a spirit in you that can see what is beyond what your mere eyes can see?
Why would I think I can see farther than my eyes. See this is the problem. Do you have any evidence you can see farther then you eyes? You could use your imagination, but your imagination is stuff made up by your mind.
Have you seen images while closing your eyes RM? I have, and as I prayed harder more images came out, vivid visions from beyond what my eyes can see, in a conscious state, yes, with eyes closed. Will be expounding on this with a book, with an amazing vision that has changed my life. Am sure others have been gifted the same way. "O Lord bless my soul, as I praise your Holy and Almighty Name." "Jesus is my Shepherd, there is nothing I shall want."
your reality seems to be congured from what you know, not what you don't know. Acceptance of God and the 6 day creation is just as much reality as your denial that it occurred. Reality is that each individual must choose a path for this oneway trip that we are on. You choose to vacate your mind of all possibility but provide no proof that it did not happen as written. However, archiologists have continually proven that it did happen and that during prior times great men and women worked peacefully in an attempt to spread truth throughout the land. Those who have traveled to the ancient ruins see and feel the spectacle that was. You shut your eyes, ears, and heart to the truth so you will never travel the path of righteousness.
archeologists have not proved that the garden of Eden existed, or that the world was created in six days and Adam and Eve were the first humans at all. Where did you hear that? Show me the peer-reviewed journals that demonstrate proof of creation.
I agree with you, but almost all that we know is passed to us in books whether it is history or science. I don't think that any of us here are scientists, so no one here has split an atom, or was even present when the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima, but we take the word of those that pass that information to us. Many scientific discoveries we can test (I catch on, right Radman? lol) but we choose to take the word of the experts.
Along those lines; Many people dispute the landing on the moon and even still others deny the Holocaust happened despite evidence, but most of people are sure they happened.That is an argument from ignorance. People don't just accept what others say, unless you're a believer, because that's how they operate, believing or not believing what others say as opposed to actually thinking and finding out yourself. It's called learning.
A Troubled Man,
Why are you trying to instigate an argument with me? I clearly stated in my previous post to you that our discussion is done because one cannot have a clear headed debate with someone so angry (it is obvious why your name is Troubled Man).
I have also looked at your profile and noticed you don't have one single article or writing which leads me to believe that you are on Hubpages only to Troll. If that is what you want to do then maybe you should go to Yahoo! comments page and pick some fights there.There you go ATM, a positive challenge from Mklow1 to write something for us and others on hubpages. As I see you ATM, you are a real man troubled in search for truth. But how can you see the truth if you cannot have peace in yourself as you remain troubled with a hardened mind and cannot open your heart and spirit to the truth?
Now again, I ask you and all in this forum, do you believe you have a spirit?There is no spirits of any kind. Unless you have some evidence? Consciousness can cease because of damage to the brain or anesthesiology, Death will be no different.
Such a nice way to say, get lost.
I have searched for truth my whole life and have found many truths and many lies. Truths come from reality, lies come from religions.
I see truth all around me. I am far more peaceful than you, my friend, who has only arrogance and deception to offer.
Sorry, but spirits have never been shown to exist, believing in them would be rather childish.What can you say about astral projection on NDE's or Near Death Experiences, where many have claimed to have seen their body as their spirit come out of their body, and seeing all things and hearing conversations within their reach or view with some claiming to have experienced their spirit moving from one room to the next with a supposed clinically dead body?
Check on this wikipedia link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection.
Check also on Dennis Dale Purcell's website on NDE's and a very interesting video from Mike Adams re "The God Within documentary exposing the FALSE philosophy of Modern Science,http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=E3B38227225F9FC62BAEA9CC81BE1D12.
God moves in mysterious ways to enlighten. You do not have to see to believe. Faith in what you believe is true as it is noble and righteous is greater than what our eyes may see yet we refuse to see the motives behind it. True faith comes true freedom.It's complete garbage. There is no such thing as astral projection
No gods have ever shown to exist let alone move in mysterious ways.
That's called a "delusion"
GibberishNDE have been studied extensively in ER rooms by placing bright messages when only a person floating up would be able to see them. Of all the people who claimed to have floated above themselves not one has ever brought back the message. Not one.
Lots of this can happen to an oxygen starved mind. It appears lots of things have happen in an unstressed mind as well.Great answer great observance! We dream not under our control , we have no control when we are under , but there is a further thought , dust you are and dust you will become is mention at many funerals , because that is what is quoted for Adam and Eve ,when they died a judgement. So Eccles 9:6 says
" the dead are conteous of nothing at all " If they were still living the word death would be useless .The body drains the fluids at death , That is the condition after death. Once in the grave there is no fluid preserved , blood has been poured out. Leaving the flesh to turn to dust.
Check this unbiased NDE explanation Radman, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience. I can understand your bias, but how do you explain my visions and those of others with a conscious soul or spirit.
Have you seen Mickey Robinson's amazing NDE account on you tube?Accounts of NDE are meaningless without evidence.
Your link didn't work. I'm not surprised.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-st … 28710.html
"We can think of a simple test setup. Place a target, such as a card with a secret message, on a high shelf in the operating room, facing the ceiling so that it is unreadable not only by the patient on the table but by the hospital staff in the room. Then if a patient has a near-death experience that involves the commonly reported sensation of moving outside her body and floating above the operating table, she should be able to read that message.
This experiment has been tried several times without a single subject succeeding in reading the message under controlled conditions."Well, There are some that believe that the spirit is a separate entity than the body. The body is simply an earthly shell. Once the spirit is separate from the body you do not retain all of the same memories. with this in mind, when dealing with a NDE, the body cannot retain any of the memories of the spirit once separated even once they rejoin because our spirits are so much more powerful than our bodies that it must be limited in order to be carried by this earthly shell we inhabit.
There you goWhich would be sad because without your memories you would not be you. Would not get to meet those who were lost before because you wouldn't remember them.
What would be the point?
"Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name."
Wow, that's really unbiased.
Mental disorders. Institutions are full of people who have "visions"
Pure baloney. He even claims 'miracle healing'. Hilarious nonsense.
Almost all historical scholars start from a suspicious skepticism, and examine the evidence as do scientists. They do not begin with a presupposition and look for supporting evidence. recorded history changes constantly and its constantly being reevaluated. The same is not true within religion.
Of course religion changes. I am relatively young and I have seen changes in the church. Do you think it is the same as in 1950?
"The only thing permanent in this world is change." That's what my Physics teacher always tell us. Changing to grow, changing for the better, changing for the truth, is something more beautiful than changing for the worse because one refuse to accept rejection and grasp the reality of things beyond what he sees.
We all have been created to become powerful as God allows us to be powerful in spirit, as we go beyond what our mind may bring us to think, beyond our intelligence, beyond what we see. The only deterrent is our pride and evil that tells us so to believe only in what we see and conveniently enjoy for the moment.
If we refuse to listen to God's words and be enlightened, God may still give you chances to go over your pride that you become more powerful than evil and convenience.
Convenience become good as it prospers love and peace, but once love and forgiveness fail, evil comes in to lure you into his lair, where there could be no return if one refuses to repent and renew in Christ.
Again, "you are the captain of your ship, the master of your destiny." After all is said and done, have you seen how pride and self propagation has brought many to their own destruction, and too sad, they have included the innocent? If we do not want this to happen to our love ones, why do we serve the wrong master?Are you still in high school?
Did your physics teacher tell you that the existence of your God violates a lot of physical laws?
or they start from a presumption a presupposition. we can use many words to describe how they come up with their theories, but the fact is they have a hunch and they work from there.
Or you just don't have the foggiest notion how science and research and scholarship work.
I have done much research, but if you have some information to enlighten me, please be my guest.
I grew up in a Baptist Family. I went with my parents into the mission field for over 2 years in Africa. I went to Bible college and wound up with a Degree in Theology and Biblical Literature and throughout all that, I became an atheist. The evidence to support the claims of the god of christianity simply don't stand when you step away from what you want or believe to be true and examine the evidence in an unbiased way.
Science, research and history does not start with an outcome and only looks for evidence to support it. Before any hypothesis becomes a theory, it has to be tested. They don't try to prove their presuppositions right, they try to prove them WRONG. Their findings are critically examined by other scholars in the field and have to go through a peer review process prior to being considered valid. So you can sit there and say that there's all this "archaeological" evidence to support the bible - but that doesn't prove that the bible is true. It proves that some of the places the bible mentioned were real, historical places - but you can say that about Homer's Iliad and the Odyssey too. That doesn't make those stories true. Just because Spiderman is written about as living in New York city and we know that New York city exists does not make those stories accurate or factual."So you can sit there and say that there's all this "archaeological" evidence to support the bible - but that doesn't prove that the bible is true."
First of all, I never said this. You are either assuming I feel this way or you are confusing me with someone else. As a matter of fact, I in some ways agreed with you in an earlier post, so please do not put words in my mouth.
Secondly, in a previous post I used the example of Charles Goodyear. He spent 5 years trying to invent a usable rubber, which lead to the creation of vulcanized rubber and hence the name Goodyear (which a company he was never associated with) became what we use now as tires. I am pretty sure he did not intend to spend 5 years of his life neglecting his family and finances (he died in debt), therefore I am pretty sure he did not spend those years trying to disprove his theory. If he could have invented it on the first try he would have gladly taken those results and ran with it.
Maybe I am overlooking something you said and I am sure there are examples you can use to back your claims as well, but in situations like this, nothing is 100%. The pendulum swings both ways.you're confusing the process of invention with the process of discovery and research. Sure, if someone wants to make things, they try to figure out a way to make them possible and it's largely a process of trial and error.
Aye carumba. I have confused nothing. I used an perfectly clear example about a scientific theory, research and discovery. I am pretty sure I could use a lot of other examples to show you my point of view, but it is clear you are not open to saying "I see what you mean."
I guess this is the point where we say we have to agree to disagree.
Hello friend. I know Baptist church very well and their teachings. They do not believe in any supernatural reality for today. All believe is based on past. But we live now. God never changes and has no power failure. But miracles to prove unseen world is not visible in their places but still it does not produces the faith which is must (!) for the salvation. The faith is the common denominator. See there was no man witness at resurrection of Jesus, only after effect of resurrection. Only angels were witness who minister to Jesus. If man would be seen raising Jesus from let say "laying position" would be eternally disqualify from salvation. *** I worked in experimental patho-physiology and one cannot work without faith. One must believe in result on logical assessment. *** Children are born with faith but doubt teaching steals their faith in many cases. Science without faith is political dissemination of unproved evolution, which is the lie. I was brainwashed atheist for time. When I found that God wants us to bless and not judge us I came back. BTW I seen and experiences miracles. *** Actually wrong teaching is trouble for churches. Instead of living in Grace, people are forcing keeping the Law, which is impossible to keep. Then Christians are in constant fear of sin and guilt. I do understand your frustration
So many claim they saw and experience miracles, but none can provide any evidence.
Evidence does not produce supernatural faith. It produces only natural faith. Courts are working on evidence and still many innocent are executed. *** Should I send you my Pet and Bone scan of 3 bones metastases which banished? BTW I have evidence but you are lacking faith you will not believe me anyway.
I need to have faith (complete trust) to believe your evidence. Which means I have to believe what you say is the truth to trust your evidence. No critical thinking allowed?
I have evidence of an invisible purple dragon in my garage. I know this for a fact because he was watching a leprechaun racing a unicorn in the Kentucky Derby on his invisible tv and the noise he wasn't making was deafening.
You might believe you did, but you didn't.
I do not care what you have in your garage. Perhaps black hole?
I am a Christian and I know this isn't correct. Archaeologists have not proven beyond a shadow of doubt that these things have happened as written in the bible. At best, they have found evidence that suggests the possibility of these events, but not absolute truth
Archeologists have discovered the ruins of some ancient cities that were mentioned in the bible - but that doesn't mean that the stories are true. It means that those cities existed. That's like saying that because New York City is known to exist means that spiderman must be real because he lived there.
cm friend you have the discernment, do you?
What Archaeologists say the earth was created in 6 days and is a few thousand years old.
We can share with many Archaeological findings as we may want with many varying claims of the time these may have existed but what will prosper us with a hardened heart, mind and soul? Do not be deceived with what your mind tells you, go beyond it, go beyond your pride for your pride is but a product of the flesh, pray harder and see what's beyond in the fullness of God's glory and splendor in you and in all of creation. Beauty in love, yes, in the love of God for us. Even carbon dating is not as accurate, but love and truth in God's Words is, and will ever be. Amen.
We aren't, and we're also not being deceived by the ridiculous explanations of your God, either.
Another dishonest Christian attempting to deny what they don't understand.ATM, Question, how many (scientific) papers you published?
Oh right, you want me to believe what your mind tells me.
Believe what you want to believe my friends, I am here to enlighten, not condemn or ridicule. As in John 20:29, Jesus said to his apostle Thomas, who refused to believe of His resurrection until he personally touched the wounds from Jesus' hands did he believe, "Blessed is he who did not see and yet believed."
Who do you think prospers when you do not believe? We we are all called to leave this life, where would your mind and your pride go, my friends? Who do you think discourages you from reading what is true in the bible?
You may never see it with a hardened mind, the two forces that influence our thinking. Only in the humility of our souls in Jesus will you find this truth in your spirit.When I die my mind will be as it was before my birth. Anything else is wishful thinking.
Have you experienced hell in your life Rad Man, ATM and JMF?
You are under the wrong impression that we are in turmoil. I live a good life with a loving wife and three children. We simply don't buy into BS.
Amen. Bless you Rad Man. But my question is have you had turmoil in your life and what did you learn from it?
Lost a parent. Does that count? I learned it sucks to watch someone die.
Yes, we feel the pain of seeing one die and departs. But do you know that if you have faith in Jesus, as you abide in Him, He will abide in you, and if you believe and do good deeds in the love of others, you will be blessed and by His grace have eternal life in you.
Yes, in our spirit, RM and in our faith we may live forever in Christ. As you pray for your parent, in Jesus, by your faith and good deeds, Jesus listens, and with your love for your parent and in the love of Jesus, your parent lives and is freed by your faith in the loving and Divine Mercy of God in Jesus.
Yes, that is how powerful faith can be, and love for others can be, if only you believe. That is why those who believe sometimes feel the presence of their love ones protecting them, helping them heal in Jesus, and helping guide them to the light of Christ, because they believe, and because of their faith, Amen?What a load. You may be able to fool yourself with that nonsense, but you can't fool me.
How completely repugnant and immoral to prey on the death of a loved one or Personal tragedy to proselytize and put forth your own religion.
Choose your master Rad Man. It's your life and your destiny. I have great reasons more than enough to believe in my faith in Jesus. It's true faith that goes beyond what others cannot understand. It is the spiritual person who can best understand God's words as he is in Christ. But the natural person cannot, for this is all foolishness to him, as in 1 Corinthians 2:14-15. And only the spiritual person can judge about everything for 'he has the mind of Christ," in the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Do not be deceived by the evil one Rad Man, who lures you into just believing in yourself, in your mind and intelligence. Remember, when God calls us, all are humbled, where truth and reckoning comes, when one becomes helpless in his unbelieving stance, and his sins in his unfaithfulness to the One who created him in his arrogance and his pride, all these render him powerless, when all things that he says belong to him do not really belong to him, as when he was born, nothing belong to him, rather, everything good comes from God. Everything good that you enjoy in this life comes from Him, your spouse, your children, your family and friends, but we have to honor Him who has given us all our blessings in this temporary life.
Woe to anyone who becomes powerless in death. But praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ who has saved us by dying for our sins on the cross that we may have eternal life. Where for true believers, the death of the flesh is but the beginning of the real and true life, a life full of goodness, of peace and joy and love. I pray that all be enlightened to this truth in the humility of their hearts.
Now I ask you RM, how much peace and joy do you have in your life?You do know that none of these assertions without proof are not going to carry any weight with us, right? Preach and proselytize all you want, but that's not the way to carry on a meaningful conversation with an atheist. Do you honestly think we haven't heard any of this crap before? Give me something that actually means something, don't just use the forum to promote your own, unprovable assertions and expect to see them work. I have no respect for these tactics and find them humorous, not thought provoking.
If you're trying to say that without good, life had no joy, no love and no meaning, you're just simply wrong. Hate to break it to ya. Next?
If you think that this life is all you get, then are you not deceiving yourself JMF? I presume you do not believe in the presence of a spirit that God has created in each one of us?
If you have no respect for others in expressing their beliefs, how would you feel if I would say the same thing to you JMF? If arrogance and pride, and giving more value to material things in this life more than you value God who gave us life and all good things that we have, how deep is your love for yourself, and for your family? Self deep?
Why do you think people become irritated as you may be right now? Is it not because of rejection? Out of rejection what happens, temper flares up as what you are doing? Then comes violence? Would you prefer to be ruled therefore by your pride and not by truth and what is noble and peaceful?
Jesus teaches us to face rejection with truth and love. Does this make sense to you?So the answer is no, you can't have a conversation
Alas JMF, Christ is beyond religion my friend. He is in our being for again, 'through Him all things were made, and without Him there is nothing that was made," as in John 1:3. We owe to Him our life as we owe to Him our being saved from sin and death from sin.
That is why there are constant reminders and signs in our life that tell us to return to Him as our Lord and Savior. All the violence, death in bombings such as those that recently happened in Boston, all other senseless killings that happen around us, conflicts, broken families are proof to this truth. We may not see it because we refuse to see it from within our spirit.
It is our pride and our lack of love of God and of others that make our lives the way we choose it. But all these are passing. As they pass, may we come back to our senses and reflect on God's message for us to 'return to Him' onto the light of Christ, before time catches up on us. Again, this is to enlighten, not to ridicule. For truly, while truth may hurt because of our pride, 'TRUTH SETS US FREE' in our humility to the One who created us all, and in Jesus, we may see what love, mercy, forgiveness, justice, charity, care for others, and what true faith in Christ means, that we all may have hope in Jesus where with God, "all things are possible."
Again, never be deceived by evil, for I say this with no malice in my heart, rather, with love and truth in Christ, as it is meant to enlighten.I would rather go to hell (not that it exists) than worship your tyrant despot of a god. You do get that having a conversation does not mean preaching at people, right? You seem unable to do anything but spout out the same old nonsense and repeat yourself until everyone gives up trying to talk to you at all.
Everyone has their own version of hell. Which idea of hell would you be referring to?
May the love and peace of Christ be with us all, that we may not fall from sin, rather, be a light to others, that evil may remain powerless against us in Christ and with Christ. Amen.
If we are not supposed to trust the mind, how can you believe in your religion? Your belief that your religion is true is based on your thoughts your perceptions and your experiences which are examined by your mind and your senses. But you say we cannot trust our mind out our senses. It contradicts itself.
The earth is billions years old. But our culture from Adam is about 6000 years old. Note God replenished the earth. Originally it was destroyed. Still creation is valid since God is not as slow as we are.
This is a refreshing statement. I can accept that human culture is approximately 6000 years old, but not a 6 day literal creation or a literal reading of Genesis.
People have been painting on cave walls for 40,000 years and wandering around for 200,000 years.
That's as may be, but civilisation is less than 6000 years old.
That's not true. Human beings have been living together in tribes or societies for longer than 6000 years, as demonstrated by cave paintings previously mentioned.
I think both gentlemen are correct. D. and JMc. There was pre-Adamic race. It was destroyed. Universe including our earth could be many Billion years. But “Adamites” culture is about 6000 years. Who read the Bible knows there was major first flood before Gen 1:2 continued.
If someone paints cartoon characters on walls of caves and they are discovered a "zillions" years later, the existing people would say, "Human beings have evolved from half human/half animalt (Buggs Bunny) creatures that were surprisingly intelligent. Evidence shows that they were probably bestial considering the likeness of both animals and human beings. They were vegans that enjoyed mostly a forerunner of the gwapt believed to be called 'carrot.'" or 'caret.' Believe it or not, some of these human creatures drove automobiles (prehistoric transportation) and some ran faster than automobiles, which were crude means of transportation. The fastest of the various creatures were Roadrunner-rex. and Taz"
Before Noah's flood, there must have been lots of flooding during the creation of the Earth. Waters had to be divided from earth, etc. Man can learn a lot from relics of the past, but I doubt that he has it all right. There is a lot of guessing. A lot of mistakes and lies were done with the discovery of dinosaur fossils.Yes, in part with religious beliefs and creationism.
'Believe it or not,' and 'Must have been,' LS, are opinions and cannot hold water, or can it? Let us dwell more on what is true that we may be set free from our doubts.
Now, what can you say LS, JMF and the rest about this factual event that miraculously happened during and after the Atomic Bomb blast dropped in Hiroshima Aug 6, 1945, http://holysouls.com/sar/rosarymiracle.htm ?
God in Jesus loves us all. Going back to His flock is what He calls on us to do. Blessings to you all.LS, JMF, ATM, RM, and the rest, what can you say to one of the many miraculous events attributed to men of faith and prayer? Yes, these 8 German Jesuits who survived the horrendous Hiroshima blast never missed praying daily the holy rosary?
How could you miss such an important contribution to this forum my friends?
This is the power of prayer and faith in God in Jesus, where again, "with God all things are possible."there is no way to prove what saved them. The blast at Hiroshima was horrible, but there were survivors regardless. Attributing the survival of these 8 men BECAUSE of their faith is a huge leap, and it cannot be demonstrated or proven sufficiently for anyone.
Because, it is irrelevant. There were even more people who were non-Catholic that survived but they were even closer to the blast.
No, it was a feeble attempt at defending your religion.It was not religion or rosary which saved the people or house. It was the faith in God.
That's right, and there are no people of faith in any hospitals.
Like faith helped these people?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/2 … lp00000009You simply can't prove that assertion. You just want it to be true, so you claim that it is
Spreading that nonsense is harmful. I can't think of one good reason for spreading that garbage. Not only does it spread guilt, but it's dangerous. See my link in the previous post.
Of course this in no way pertains to all people with faith, just the ones claiming that the faithful get healed. This first problem is those who are ill and don't recover are told that don't have enough faith causing guilt in an already ill person. The second thing that happens can be seen in the link a few posts back.
God moves in mysterious ways. So glad am back to this interesting forum guys.
God in Jesus wants us to abide in Him and He will abide in us. RM's link about faith healers being imprisoned for the death of their children speaks for itself.
FAITH and GOOD DEEDS come together. Without good deeds, faith is DEAD as in the book of Saint James, 2:14-16.
We have to do what is pleasing to the Lord and not condemn others, rather, God to condemn or judge, not us. We can only enlighten people especially those who go astray to go back to God in the light of Christ.
Whatever prayers we may do, Vlad is right, nothing of these will save us if we do not do what is pleasing to God in the love of Him and of others.
True faith goes beyond what our mind tells us. It is believing in God's words that make us whole.
All of man's intelligence is but a gift from God, but alas, man has learned to use it for its selfish gains. Whatever religion, race, color or creed one belongs to, God "will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent" He will frustrate, as in 1 Corinthians 1:19.
One may consider himself intelligent, but what does it prosper him to be knowledgeable of things material when he lacks true wisdom from the Lord? Will he able to bring all what he knows or what he says he owns and possess when he dies? Again, let not the evil one deceive or possess you. You belong to Christ, our good Lord and Savior, as we all belong to God who created all things in this life.
Wikipedia has its unbiased version on factual events, including the miracle in Hiroshima, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_Schiffer.
Praying the holy rosary has become a healing element of faith among many Catholics, for it goes beyond what others see as love only for mortals, but negate the power of faith from the immortals, now all empowered by Christ to do greater works for us all.
Let us all be reminded that living in Christ, death is gain, for it leads to immortality, as Saint Paul exhorts us to believe in our faith, and again, "with God all things are possible."
I pray that we may believe more in the truth, that the truth may help heal us and truly set us free from all bondage of sin and evil.
If Christians are right what do you and many others stand to lose! Because in gambling they say the house always win! And who's house our we living in ,certainly not our own ,we had no control of our being born here on this planet.
We stand to lose a life of integrity, honesty and morality, and I for one will not give those up.
You are correct ! When you think of the possibilities that you could not have been born at all! And you have been given an opportunity to live in the future forever in a paradise that Adam and Eve lost fore themselves based on obedience ,And we have been given there opportunity to take possession of the earth without wickedness ,and more future events will happen ,but first the earth must be cleaned off ,of all who would not work with the future of the Lord's Prayer, Our father who Art in heaven hollowed be thy name ,thy kingdom come (Government) thy will be done on earth as is in heaven ( earth will be heavenly ,all those that are declared righteous will not have to die and go to heaven.because heaven will spread out onto the earth , example if you have been to one Walgreen in one state you may feel you are at home ,because they all are set up inside the same ,and restaurants like Mc Donald's .
If I may ask, what's dishonest about having an opinion or belief? As it has been pointed out before, there is no real evidence one way or the other. With this in mind, what we have left when there is no actual evidence is belief and opinion. There is no dishonesty in opinion. You've even pointed this out when I told some of my story and how I came to my current level of belief. I am still living a life as honestly and as moral as I can and I believe in God.
Deepes I realize that my post was not as clear as I would have liked. I'm not saying that believers are dishonest. I'm saying that as a current atheist, believing in something right now without sufficient evidence and following the rules it dictates that I disagree with would be dishonest for me personally. It would be disingenuous of me to willfully suspend my knowledge and skepticism and just start believing in something based on the hope of an afterlife without sufficient cause. It was not my intention in my post to call believers out for their faith.
Thank you for clarifying your statement. I didn't necessarily think you were calling believers out. I was just asking as it related to you directly. That you would follow something you disagree with the guidelines of would certainly be dishonest. That is a matter of principles which again in itself is not dishonest at all. I know there are a lot of things in the Bible that you totally disagree with, especially in the face of how it is presented at times.
There is nothing wrong with having and opinion or believe. But will give you and example you may believe in that you need a Job but can you get a job or even a career just believing .it takes action and education to attain a goal of purpose. You say there is no evidence really you are prove of evidence ,think how wonderful you are made and organized. There are many right before our eyes ,it is up to you to consider them as evidence ,But remember our enjoyment of the present life is not the real life God meant for us. We are just alien residents in this time period because satan question God's Authority as the right to rule over all his creations ,what you see now is what satan has done to the earth and those who have taken his side. ( we want to make it very clear we are not taking his side willing, how do we do that by taking in accurate knowledge ,there is correct way ,but most people accept what they have been born under. The truth has to accepted and acknowledge in order to be accepted by The True God, anything else goes to satan.
You see that is the real test .accepting truth and living by it. Thanks for that question.again the truth has to be accepted and acknowledge by all human creation ,in order to continue here living and into the future of a paradise earth,. Would you not agree man has done everything under the son ,yes God has allowed the action by not interfering to prove a point that it does not work ,we have seen it all ,name it. Now we want it to stop,crime selfishness ,hate, injustice of many kinds , even the fairness of hunger, The biggest problem is now we know things are bad and now God is being blame for it ,when really it is all satan's marks.
I would like to use a great evidence in people .example how much do you know about Jews, how did they get so rich? Do they have a family tree, how did they get the laws they live by? They were slaves of the Egyptians long ago , and the true God of the universe took them as his people. And release them from Pharaoh's bondage. When they where released,they carried the many riches from Egypt with them and they are still rich today even though they lost there favor from the Almighty God. I ask you to look into your history books of pharaohs and the history of the Jews. They are living prove of God's richness he gave them.
There is a lot that can be said about this statement, but I'm going to leave this to the atheists. Hey guys, don't be too hard on this one
I appreciate your answer, and I agree with some of your answer. My question was actually for JM in regarding to her mentioning a loss of integrity, morality, etc..I was getting a gauge of where she was going with her statement.
Please excuse me at times I answer a question and it goes to some one else ,but regardless it is all truth.
I am a Christian and I have not given up my morality, honesty, and integrity.
On a different note: Ring Species!
Let's hear the Creationist explanation for this one.That is wonderful ! then you will be able to relate what I will be talking about. First I would like to start off on the subject of Egypt and the land and the people and their gods I will post it tomorrow , as I prepare .
you mean Egypt where there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence that the Israelite people evacuated by massive numbers, were ever held as slaves as an entire population and NO evidence for the biblical plagues or records of them ever occurring? That Egypt?
I will post to you what I have and then we will talk .
Hellow Mr.J.F
Sorry for the delay of post . I do have some info that would give thought to the subject,
I did mention the Eyptain history I only will list one case ,and then I will list scientific case, and then I will list phophecy meaning where we are in time.The first is that many question the existence of the Israelites under bondage,
There is papyrus scrolls in The Brooklyn Museum with the writings of the history of slaves under Sobeknotep III .The book number info is 35.1446.
The info written was a list of saves at that time .Shiphrah was a Hebrew a midwife along with Puah ,they both where in charge of helping to deliver babies ,but pharaoh wanted to kill all male babies, he had ordered genocide , and these midwifes went against his orders. This was also written in the bible at Exodus 1: 15-16. This was in the13 dynasty.
Commits the artifacts shows on the Artifact that there were slaves in Egypt at that time ,and the midwifes were Hebrew and a Canaanite. The bible and the found Artifact are in union.
Science
The earth is our planet or home. Just like if we where to prepare a home for tropical fish we would need proper water conditions along with proper heat
Our planet has everything we need to live here.
We have light we have seasons ,we have water sources , we have protected shields to protect us from the outside in space. Scientist are discovering newer things every day about our planet earth.
Long before scholars had the tools and machinery The bible gave us valuable information about our planet.
One is that Humans thought the earth was Flat. And thought they could fall off.
Yet the bible clearly tells us at Isaiah 40:22 the earth is a circle.
Job 26:7 tells us the earth hangs in space ,nothing is holding it.
And the book of Genesis 1 explains there was day and then there was night.
Commit we live and see the sun and moon everyday and they both are faithful witnesses of perfection when it comes to our needs.
Next I would like to talk about phophecy .
We all would like to know things before they happen ,yet that was a wonderful gift God he has provided from the beginning of human history. he first phophecy was when man disobeyed God almighty ,He will bruise you in the heel and he will bruise you in the head, This has to do with Government.
God almighty would allow Satan to rule the earth with his own Governments.
When Jesus came on the scene ,satan under using the Jews and the Government had Jesus killed. ( The bruise in the heel). Yet what we have in history is a long list of rulers even til now. the book of Daniel tell us of the Image that was a vision in King Nebuchadnezzar rulership. the image has really proven bible phophecy even to the point of Alexander the Great. And his takeover ,The bible has been on time even to Say the king of the north and the king of the south. Daniel 2:44 talks about our time period , Daniel 2:30 talks of the Governments that have come and gone and is in our history books ,Persia ,Rome,and others,We are now at the feet ,the Anglo American world powers.
The reason for the choice of subjects is to point to the truthfulness of the bible and the history ,that both testify to his existence.
In all of this there is still another point , all Governments in time ruled under a pacific number of time in power ,like the president . All these human Governments ruled under years and ending just as the bible numbers add up.
History told of Alexander the Great and his short time, but how many other rulerships came from his.when his time was up.
I hope I have touched on something for you to think about. If you would like more to discuss I am open for discussion. thanks for your timeFor centuries, the biblical account of the Exodus has been revered as the founding story of the Jewish people, sacred scripture for three world religions and a universal symbol of freedom that has inspired liberation movements around the globe.
But did the Exodus ever actually occur?
On Passover last Sunday, Rabbi David Wolpe raised that provocative question before 2,200 faithful at Sinai Temple in Westwood. He minced no words.
"The truth is that virtually every modern archeologist who has investigated the story of the Exodus, with very few exceptions, agrees that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way it happened, if it happened at all," Wolpe told his congregants.
Wolpe's startling sermon may have seemed blasphemy to some. In fact, however, the rabbi was merely telling his flock what scholars have known for more than a decade. Slowly and often outside wide public purview, archeologists are radically reshaping modern understanding of the Bible. It was time for his people to know about it, Wolpe decided.
After a century of excavations trying to prove the ancient accounts true, archeologists say there is no conclusive evidence that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, were ever enslaved, ever wandered in the Sinai wilderness for 40 years or ever conquered the land of Canaan under Joshua's leadership. To the contrary, the prevailing view is that most of Joshua's fabled military campaigns never occurred--archeologists have uncovered ash layers and other signs of destruction at the relevant time at only one of the many battlegrounds mentioned in the Bible.
Today, the prevailing theory is that Israel probably emerged peacefully out of Canaan--modern-day Lebanon, southern Syria, Jordan and the West Bank of Israel--whose people are portrayed in the Bible as wicked idolators. Under this theory, the Canaanites who took on a new identity as Israelites were perhaps joined or led by a small group of Semites from Egypt--explaining a possible source of the Exodus story, scholars say. As they expanded their settlement, they may have begun to clash with neighbors, perhaps providing the historical nuggets for the conflicts recorded in Joshua and Judges.
"Scholars have known these things for a long time, but we've broken the news very gently," said William Dever, a professor of Near Eastern archeology and anthropology at the University of Arizona and one of America's preeminent archeologists.
Dever's view is emblematic of a fundamental shift in archeology. Three decades ago as a Christian seminary student, he wrote a paper defending the Exodus and got an A, but "no one would do that today," he says. The old emphasis on trying to prove the Bible--often in excavations by amateur archeologists funded by religious groups--has given way to more objective professionals aiming to piece together the reality of ancient lifestyles.
But the modern archeological consensus over the Exodus is just beginning to reach the public. In 1999, an Israeli archeologist, Ze'ev Herzog of Tel Aviv University, set off a furor in Israel by writing in a popular magazine that stories of the patriarchs were myths and that neither the Exodus nor Joshua's conquests ever occurred. In the hottest controversy today, Herzog also argued that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, described as grand and glorious in the Bible, was at best a small tribal kingdom.
In a new book this year, "The Bible Unearthed," Israeli archeologist Israel Finklestein of Tel Aviv University and archeological journalist Neil Asher Silberman raised similar doubts and offered a new theory about the roots of the Exodus story. The authors argue that the story was written during the time of King Josia of Judah in the 7th century BC--600 years after the Exodus supposedly occurred in 1250 BC--as a political manifesto to unite Israelites against the rival Egyptian empire as both states sought to expand their territory.
Dever argued that the Exodus story was produced for theological reasons: to give an origin and history to a people and distinguish them from others by claiming a divine destiny.
Some scholars, of course, still maintain that the Exodus story is basically factual.
Bryant Wood, director of the Associates for Biblical Research in Maryland, argued that the evidence falls into place if the story is dated back to 1450 BC. He said that indications of destruction around that time at Hazor, Jericho and a site he is excavating that he believes is the biblical city of Ai support accounts of Joshua's conquests.
http://articles.latimes.com/2001/apr/13/news/mn-50481
JMcFarland I'm going to pray for you. I also am going to pray for all people to know God. I always knew there was a God. If you look around you can see the evidence everywhere. Yes, even math. If anything math should point out that there is a God. Math shows us that we are right in the exact spot in this universe were we can exist. I may not be a smart man, but I know what love is.
May God Bless you all the way He has me.Amen. Blessings to you livinggood. May humility of our souls and the light of Christ be our guide in this short and temporary trial filled life, and overcome what is deceitful in evil and what may attempt to murk our minds as we remain strong in spirit in Christ Jesus.
Jesus loves you and all non-believers, JMF and RM. May the Holy Spirit guide you to His truth and His ways. Amen.I'll send a letter to Santa on both of your behalf
The papyrus artifact shows the name of slaves , listed was Shiphrah and Puah both where midwifes.
I suggest that you do a bit more research. Your statements really don't hold water, if you start examining what biblical scholars have to say about prophecy (which isn't really prophecy) history and archaeology. I don't even know where to start in responding to this - but perhaps you should start with GOOGLE and google the several different "facts" that you presented me with - and then find out the truth behind what you're claiming. I'm not trying to demean you or belittle your efforts, but they're amateurish. In a debate world, that would be like bringing a toy bow and arrow to a fight with AK47's. While I'm not surprised that this is what you came up with, I would encourage further research on YOUR side, and perhaps a bit more knowledge on what you're attempting to put forward as proof. It doesn't stand, dude - I'm sorry.
First maybe what does not stand for you is Good enough for me and someone else. ,next Ihave not presented the info based on to debate ,but to proof what is before Our eyes , next what you say you are not doing the words you use ,you are doing ,for one thing I am not a dude.,next my info came from scholars I listed the source and museum, You tell me to start with google how old is google my source is older then you or I , I stead of having a decussion, it seems you have made a statement you did not mean. and perhaps you are not mature enough to know how to answer the discussion that is why I get this feed back from you.
lol first of all - I have no idea what you actually just said. Secondly, if you're not a dude, then I am likewise not a Mr. (and I call everyone dude, regardless of gender) Thirdly - sure your sources are older than google, but that does not make them accurate. If you googled for five minutes, you would find multiple refutations to all of the things that you're claiming to be proof in the first place. Start with what actual biblical scholars say about what you're claiming. Then take a look at what constitutes proof. From there, you need to look at the proof that you claim to have and see if it meets that standard. If it doesn't, then you need to search for supporting or alternate proof to present your case. That's how debates work. I love how, when I told you kindly to do a bit more research, you told me that I wasn't mature enough to debate with you. I don't know if it's a language barrier thing (because I don't think that English is your first language) or if you've just been reading old apologist websites, but these things that you're presenting as "proof" have been around for years, and they've been thoroughly refuted. You told me that you were going to present me with the best proof that you had - if this is it, then it simply isn't good enough.
and Excuse me did your scholars teach you how to address ladies ,well as we can see ,your manor speaks fore itself .
I am a lady - and I'm talking to you exactly like I'd talk to anyone else. This is called a Ad-hominem logical fallacy - an attack against the person, not the argument. Sorry.
And if you are a lady at least I know how to address the person I am talking with. You do not have to agree on anything I have posted If you where mature enough you would have addressed each topic instead you stoned it. that is like a baby throwing his peas away, when you know that those peas are a great source of vitamins. So with that my work is finish with you.
An attack on my person has nothing to do with the subject .You do not know of my person no more then what I have allowed you to see still how mature is that .when I am not the subject for discussion.
see, that's the thing - you didn't know how to address me, because you continually called me MR McFarland. It wasn't until I pointed it out that you knew differently. Likewise, how on earth was I supposed to know that you were a woman, not a man - and on top of that, I don't understand why you see the fact that I referred to you as "dude" as derogatory, when I call everybody that.
That is correct when I called you mister ,because you use letters ,and then spell out your last name. Error on my part,,. I did not know But when I address you I addressed you with respect .even thought you are a women . And if you see any of my post I address everyone I can ,it is a way of being peaceful and being able to discuss topic .
Since you posted history of your scholar info I will read and reply ,that is discussion ,that is what I am talking about. Thank you.
I actually have addressed it as you can see above. My first post was critiquing the nature of the "proof" that you presented, my second post directly related to the lack of an Israelite captivity in Egypt (out of the mouth of a Jewish Rabbi, no less as reported in the LA times) and my third post (which you will probably not read because you're done) will be on the subject of prophecy. You simply cannot quote mine an old book after the fact to find ANYTHING that sounds familiar and call it fulfilled prophecy - especially when the reasons that the Jews reject Jesus as the messiah is because they don't consider later christian extrapolation of their holy book to be prophecies at all. Prophecy cannot be self-fulfilling. It can not be tailor fit to match after the fact, and the problem is that the NT was written AFTER the OT and several NT writers (who were anonymous) clearly KNEW jewish scripture and tried to force-fit it into their story.
see: http://www.atheismresource.com/2010/the … -scripture
Seven problems with biblical prophecy
I. Vague prophecies.
Imagine you could go back in time, just as a human being with no omniscient knowledge of the future like god would surely have. You could make very precise predictions of the future without the need to hide in ambiguity. Some of my predictions would look like this:
“In the 21st Century, there will be a system by which information is spread throughout the entire world, and this system shall be called ‘the internet.’”
“Currently, people think that deafness and blindness are a result of being afflicted by the devil or demons. This is not true. These maladies are the result common flaws in DNA replication and you should treat them as equals, since it’s not their fault, rather than ostracizing them from church and social gatherings.”
“Stars are not tiny points of light, as you currently believe. They are actually huge – they’re just really far away. They’re not going to fall to the Earth. Oh, and the Earth is not going to ‘abideth forever’ (Ecclesiastes 1:4) – its life will be finite.”
“In the second century of Rome there shall be five emperors, and they will be named Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus Pius, and Marcus Aurelius.”
This is what I could offer with a knowledge of what has transpired between then and now that is far inferior to what god’s would have been. Why is it that I could have been infinitely more clear and accurate than god, even with only the capacity of a fairly young mortal?
Precise prophecies are risky – they have a very high probability of being wrong. The bible almost always shies away from any such attempt at prophecy (I’ll touch on the “almost” later) choosing to make ambiguous prophecies that could be “fulfilled” by any number of different criteria instead.
For an example, consider the following “prophecy” from Luke 7:27:
“his is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.”
Jesus proudly proclaims this prophecy was fulfilled by John. Compare this hazy line to my rather precise prophecies from above. Is this really as specific as an all-knowing god can be? Obviously not, as I could do better off the top of my head – give me access to the internet and I’ll really give you some VERY precise prophesies.
Here’s a prophecy I just made up.
“There will come a time when three evil men rise to power, and a woman will oppose them, leading the people against them!”
I’d wager good money that this would be “fulfilled” within 20 years. Do I really need divine inspiration for this?
If the scripture from Luke (and the litany of “prophecies” just like it) constitutes prognostication, what’s your take on my horoscope from today?
You experience a burst of great energy that should help you achieve almost anything close to your heart. A new love, a big win in business or even a quiet reconciliation are all possible.
By jove, it’s a miracle.
So vague prophecies are not impressive at all.
II. Trivial prophecies.
How impressed would you be by the following prophecy?
Tomorrow, the Sun will rise.
Not very impressive, is it? Prophecies that are not falsifiable (ones that involve no risk) are not exactly spectacular. Ponder for a moment how bold it would be to predict that the Sun would not rise tomorrow! Prophecies like that are very easy to get wrong, which explains why the bible almost (again, I’ll touch on the almost later) always averts them.
III. Jesus knew the prophecies he was supposed to fulfill.
Jesus, if he existed (I don’t believe he did, see David Fitzgerald’s Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All), was a Rabbi, which means he was educated in Jewish literature. A prophecy that frequently gets brought up as supposedly being fulfilled is Zachariah 9:9:
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.”
Jesus would have known precisely what to do. But this is a great deal more than mere speculation: the bible fully admits it. See Matthew 21:2-5.
“Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.”
How difficult is it to fulfill a prophecy you knew about beforehand? It’s not.
(Incidentally, in Zachariah 9:10-13, the scriptures go on to show that the person in question riding the donkey was a military king with an army that would “rule from sea to sea.” Jesus had no army and no kingdom, and therefore could not have fulfilled this “prophecy”. Also, in Zachariah 9:8 we have god decreeing that Israel shall never again be oppressed, which is a flagrantly inaccurate prophecy. It is also a perfect example of how specific prophecies tend to bite people in the hind-quarters, which is why biblical authors, mystics, and other shills tend to avoid them – see section 6 of this portion of the post.)
IV. Biblical authors lied or wrote allegorically.
Jesus wasn’t the only one who knew what the OT or other parts of the bible had to say. Consider for a moment that it’s the consensus of the historical community that the gospels were not authored by Jesus’ disciples (even the vast majority of Christian scholars concede this point). The gospels were written long after Jesus’ death with the first one, Mark, being written about 70 CE and the last, John, coming circa 95 CE. Additionally, historians believe that the gospels following Mark were based upon a reading of that book. So how hard would it be to corroborate anything from that book? Not very.
Still, mistakes are plentiful. It is clear that the authors of Luke and Matthew both read the Greek translation of Isaiah 7:14 and consequently thought that Jesus should be born of a virgin. However, the Hebrew text uses the word “alma” which simply means “young woman”. It does not imply virginity in any way. This is why Mark and John don’t seem to be aware of Mary’s virginity, and do not sync up with Luke and Matthew on that point. Doesn’t that seem like kind of an important detail?
It would not take omniscience (or even mild competence) to write a story about some dude who fulfills every prophecy in a book you already have. You or I could do it easily (J.K. Rowling has pulled it off herself, and nobody wonders if her witches are fiction or not).
V. Biblical prophecies are not backed up by any evidence outside the bible.
Here’s Matthew 2:6:
And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
In this scripture, he’s quoting Micah 5:2:
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
The bolded disparity is very important, because the Micah scripture was referring to a military leader from the clan Bethlehem Ephratah (many versions of the bible still use the word “clan” in the Micah scripture, though it is always omitted from the Matthew) rather than a man from the village of Bethlehem.
But here’s a quirk: there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Jesus, if he existed, was born in Bethlehem. None. Zilch. Believers, thinking the two passages refer to the same thing, simply insert Jesus into this ‘prophecy’.
Not all claims leave such open-ended space for the believer to insert facts though. This is one of the good things about the gospels (at least as far as we skeptics are concerned): they provide historical claims that can be tested empirically. Such as the claim in Luke that Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census be taken of the entire Roman world (the census covered only Judea, and has some other interesting implications about Jesus’ birthday – Luke sets it at least a decade after Matthew).
There is also no documentation of any out of the ordinary celestial events at that time, even though such things were very accurately recorded then. Another example would be the historical absence of any corroboration to the idea of Herod’s slaughter of innocent children (the closest thing we have are Josephus and Philo writing about how he murdered some of his family members). This tends to be the kind of thing that historians write about. The list could quite literally go on forever.
When prophecies are having to compete with history, they stop being ‘prophecies’. There is no corroboration of biblical prophecy outside of the bible and plenty of historical conflict with what’s in it.
VI. Numerous prophecies were unfulfilled.
Remember how the bible tends to almost universally avoid specific prophecies because of how you can actually get those wrong? Well, here’s where the ‘almost’ comes in. Look at Ezekiel 26:
“For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people…And I will make thee [Tyre] like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.”
I use an ellipse (…) to skip the gory description of just how Nebuchadrezzar will conquer Tyre. Feel free to go read it for yourself. However, Nebuchadrezzar did not defeat Tyre – try as he did. Alexander the Great conquered them about 200 years later.
Other versions of the bible spell out that god expressly says that Tyre shall never be rebuilt (see the bolded section). Of course, Tyre was rebuilt and remains one of the oldest inhabited cities to this day (2750 BCE – present).
This is why the authors of the bible tend to avoid specific prophesies, like you or I could make if we went back in time. Imagine if the author had just written, “Tyre will be destroyed.” You can bet that Christians would have been chalking up Alexander’s work to biblical prophesy. See how other ambiguous passages easily conform to just about anything? Fortunately for those of us who demand falsifiable data, the type demanded in science, Ezekiel (and a host of other biblical writers who wrote unfulfilled prophesies) goofed.
The bible speaks of an omniscient god, and that clearly cannot be the case if even one ‘prophecy’ is wrong. That’s clearly the case we find ourselves in. Ask yourself if the above really looks like the product of omniscience.
Hey, he can’t get things right all the time. Who do you think he is, god?
VII. Self-fulfilling prophecies.
These are prophecies along the lines of saying, “Tomorrow I’m going to go fishing” and then going fishing the following day. A similar case would be saying you’re going to rebuild a temple and then doing it. You can find many cases of this in the bible, and Christians all-to-eager to brand them as fulfilled prophecies.
So, my advice? Go find a site that lists biblical prophecies and read them. Ask yourself how difficult or miraculous such prophecies would be to make. Though I wouldn’t recommend it (in my opinion, the bible is one of the worst-written, least-informing, and most awful books ever written), you could even read the bible. See for yourself.
Remember, there is a stark difference in approach from people who view doubt as an important tool in keeping one’s self from being scammed and those who view doubt as a threat to believing as you ‘should’. Doubt: it’s your friend.I have and at least it makes since to me and others, Tell me how do this Rabbi get his customs of worship ,where is his proof of his traditional sabbath come from. What does he use in his worship.? And any Jewish person ,and where did there wealth come from? I see you have a lot of book knowledge ,but that does not mean they are correct .for we all are imperfect humans!
Information overload, JMF. Nice try. Good I have a powerful virus and crash protector, faith in Jesus, faith in what is true, noble, as it is righteous and justified.
The more we share things that come out of our pride, of our knowledge, belief coming from intellectual faculties, the more we may lose grasp of reality, that's when we crash, and who's to blame, ourselves in our ego, which without us knowing or realizing it, is being manipulated by evil, who wants to devour us for our love of material and worldly things.
Again, can all these really satisfy us, or is this mere self-pity and become meaningless as time pass?
While we have material blessings, you're right in doing good and loving your family for this, helping move the economy as you spend your hard earned money while using your God given talents for all the good reasons. And loving and caring for others in a selfless way may make you more fulfilled. Like the hero in you, ain't that beautiful? Have you felt like this before? When are you happier, praising yourself, or seeing others happy?
As in Philippians 2:1-4, " Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. ."
The spirit can become more powerful than our intelligence and all worldly things combined, if only we become humble enough to accept our own mistakes, our faults in our selfish desires, and that all that we have comes from God as blessings, that we may enjoy our life in the love of others. Will these material blessings and our intellect last forever? No, right? Only the evil one wants you to believe there is no afterlife and you can only care less for when you die, that's it, that's peace for you, or is it?
Do you think God will not repay? For every good thing we do, of bad and ungodly things that we do as to deny Him and His truth, He will repay, for whatever we may deserve as reward or punishment, as in Romans 2:6.
What about your kids, your family, their future, have you thought about investing for their eternal salvation or again, would you care less?
Generational sins passed on from generation to generation are real, so is spiritual warfare, my friends. The realities around us are proof of this. The more we open our hearts and spirit to this truth, the more we may attain peace and joy for ourselves and our love ones.
In Hebrews 3:15, "If today you hear his (God's) voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."
I pray that all be enlightened in Christ.This actually has nothing to do with what I said. You're just preaching, not discussing.
Secondly, god hardens people's hearts see: Pharaoh, and in the nt as well. Blame him.In every action we make, JMF, are we not man enough to accept responsibility? Who do you think prospers when we deny this truth?
She doesn't have to be man enough and why do you deny the truth?
You know what I mean RM. Here, man refers to both man and woman, as a general gender to refer to mankind.
You know what I mean RM. Man here refers to mankind, whatever one thinks he or she is. In the eyes of God, we are all His creation, in His image and likeness. We are all accountable to Him and to His truth.
Perhaps you should have a look at what you said.
"In every action we make, JMF, are we not man enough to accept responsibility?"
You told a women to man up, that's different then telling a person to be a better and more honest person. Perhaps you should man up and admit you were wrong? It's the honest thing to do.I am here to enlighten that more people may see the truth, not deny the truth, RM. If truth hurts, it is the truth, and is it in accepting the truth we are set us free. The more one denies the truth, the more he confuses himself/herself and others. And this may often lead to more conflict and chaos in one's life instead of peace, serenity and order.
The essence of my message is the same. Do not let malice cloud your mind, RM. Let go and let God. If you do not believe in God, I pray that again, you be enlightened to the truth in God in Jesus.
If your pride tells you to believe what your mind tells you, then let your mind be your master. God in spirit is my Master my friend. and God in Jesus loves you and He calls on you not to worry too much on things material and they do not prosper the spirit. As Jesus said, "worrying will not add a single hour or day in your life," or will it?
Rather, use material things for the glory of God and for the love of others by guiding and helping them know the truth. Pride and our ego are prone to temptation, as oppose to humility to the Words of Truth from the One who created us all.
Bottom line is, should we not be responsible and accountable to our fellowmen of our actions, whatever gender we may belong? And since I believe in God, every person is held accountable to our Creator
and He will repay. In the acceptance of truth, not blaming others for our decisions and actions in life, are we not set free?
Again, I am not here to ridicule or condemn, rather, to help enlighten. Only God can condemn. I am here to express my love and care for everyone, through expressing what is true and loving in Christ, that we may all be one in Christ.Stop preaching to me. I don't read it. The truth does hurt. There is no God and no afterlife. The truth hurts.
But there is a God and an afterlife. The truth doesn't have to hurt!
To: Kiss andTales. Hello Lady. Sin of unbelief threw Adam in Garden to lover level of life, "sense knowledge". Believers are operating on both levels: revelation of Word of God and the facts. The facts do not interfere with faith. Every man is born with faith, since babies cannot operate on facts. Atheism is religion, political fake. We believe in invisible substance Word of God, which never changes. One cannot see spoken words. Word of God affects our life positive way. Thanks for telling the truth.
Thank you Viadimir Uhri, I appreciate your encouraging words.
It is true for many that there is no God, But that could mean that his spirit does not welcome there person. Just like an invitation to the White House all are not welcome ,and even when people try to invite themselfs ,they are not still welcome, they may end up in police custody here on earth if they persist their way ,this is a reality all will not be a welcome guest to Almighty God 's presence, now or in the future, why ,the bible gives the reason ,So we can not be upset about a reason of choice,. many today do not get a invitation to the White House yet that does not mean the White House does not exist. Yes it is visible to our eyes. And for those who have never seen it ,can we say it does not exist. There are many that have proof of it's existence. a choice to believe what they believe is still there choice ,but it is God who judges all . And we for our part should pray that maybe one day The light that we have to see him , that one day before it is all over the invitation will be open to them also. And for those that have the light to see must be careful that it is not satan's light , for he keeps turning himself into an angle of light, Why to fool many into thinking this is the way to true worship , when really it is his organization.
The truth is the truth for all. If something is true for some, but not others, that is a belief or an opinion... Especially if the proof attached is not accepted by all.
This statement (with all due respect) is contradictory to the word. God (If.....) does not reject those who do not believe in the spirit. God's acceptance is an open door for all. The idea that God is exclusive only to those who believe totally limits his grace.
The problem with this comparison is that the White house does exist. If any one doubt it, they can pull up pictures of it, get the address, and even at least see the outside in person.
This is an issue with organized religion.. People treat it as an exclusive club only available for and to certain people. God does not operate this way. The invitation is always there, but people have to accept the invite.I do understand your statement ,of your opinion yet I will post scripture to my statements , will post later today. Thank you.
I'm pretty sure I know which scriptures you are going to pull up, but I will be waiting.
To answer your commit Mr DM The scriptures that is in harrmoy is found at Mark 2:14 ,10 :21. These scriptures speak of when Jesus invited a man to be his follower, he wanted too and started out. Yet Jesus told him he would have to sell his possetions ,he declined, this is proof many will have a zeal and want to follower Jesus path, but many will not want to give up somthing to do it, that means it is up to us to answer the invitation ,
Another issue was believing ,Jesus made reference why some would believe and some would not, John 10 :26 . Touches on why . And those that don't are labeled as doing the will of there father Satan. ,
not all people will be in an approved state with God almighty and his son Jesus.
And remember no one can come to the father accept through the son Jesus.
Many may offer worship but it is up to God to accept on his end. Example Cain and Able. God accepted Ables gift , and he rejected Cain's. We do not have control of the keys to life and death only the Father and Son does.
Very interesting, DM. If many Christian churches or sects accept all people from all walks of life into Christianity, what is then an inorganized religion?
Many do accept all types of people from all walks of life, but a lot of those that accept people unconditionally are nondenominational and as such not as judgmental and dogmatic as the denominational or "organized" Christian churches that utilize doctrines as a requirement for membership and thus salvation. Most of these churches or sects do not recognize other churches as "true" churches because they operate differently.
Religion in general is a personal philosophy that is dependent on relationship. Just because two people have two different relationships with God and Christ does not mean that one is more of a Christian than the other. It is the "mob mentality" set by organized religion that believes that they are the only ones that are guaranteed to get into heaven when the reality is that we all have an equal chance (as according to our faithm hearts, and works) or entering into the kingdomSorry for posting late this morning ,but I did explain my commit, hope you understood ,thank you for your question and I do respect how you ask or disagree respectfully ,because this is a discussion , not a debate, thanks DM
as usual the anti-Christian zealots rant and rave claiming that their denial is based on lack of proof. Some jabber about science and written material that does not prove there was no Jesus and therefore no God. However, once again, they cannot prove where any of the living organisms and the world as we know it came from. The preaching by those anti-Christian zealots is just a vacant debate as usual. While the anti-Christian individuals often participate in demeaning those who accept the spiritual existence, they cannot prove that the spirit does not exist. Having lived as a Christian in many non-Christian parts of the world, I have observed the great things that happen when Christian followers who praise God support the non-Christian world. In all cases, the non-Christians learned to accept the help from the Lord that was given. Not once in all these instances did I observe anyone turning down the food, security, shelter, and love being provided.
the anti-Christian zealots will deny these wonderful activities occurred, because they did not see them or feel them. Therefore according to the anti-Christian, they could not have happened. The miracle is that regardless of the blabbering of the anti-Christians, honest and truthful Christian followers continue to do their good work. When the honest and truthful Christian makes the trip to Heaven, they will be given their rightful place next to their Lord. God bless the anti-Christian with a joyous heart and spirit mind so they may truly know their maker.Amen to that Tab and KT. Faith in Jesus and good deeds complete the equation to salvation. Blessings.
There is group of believers and other law keepers. Law keepers believe God would like them because the work, but it is not true. All religions are based on the work and deeds. It is different on Grace Receivers. When one accept Grace, it would blow head out so to speak. Head is full of opinion and not Word of God. When we receive Grace, we become new creation and start bear fruit of the spirit (Gal. 5:22-23).
Also it is nothing unusual and abnormal when someone is guarding from religion. Guard your eyes, mind, soul and heart from wrong.
Love you all.No, but what constitutes "good" can be very different for those who have a god and those who have no god. As can the ultimate goal of being "good."
In other words a personal philosophy VS what's generally accepted and agreed upon?
In a way, yes. Because what's generally accepted and agreed upon changes over time, even when there is a "bedrock" source like the Bible.
This is interesting that you would say this. This statement raises another question: If things change over time as far as what's agreed upon and accepted, then why is it that there are some that still try to apply old biblical principles into today's world?
I think that depends on the "old Biblical principals" you're talking about. People forget (or never understood in the first place) that many of the rules in the OT were specifically for the Jews, and many were specifically for the Jews living in OT-era Israel.
Still, it's human nature to want something that you can cling to, and for many people it's the rules rather than the One who made the rules. Interpretations of the rules may vary widely, but it's still the rules that people cling to.
Yes, those who have a god don't understand what is good or bad, they merely obey their god.
Why do you keep saying silly things like this?
You know as well as I do that the majority of people who call themselves Christians are just like the majority of everyone else that don't. We can find haters and hyporcrits of every sort among just about any group of people.
But you are not like them, you only hate the haters.Except that they operate from a system of blind faith and beliefs as opposed to thinking, rationale and reason.
Sorry, if you believe thinking is hating. I suppose it is to a believer who sees it as completely foreign and something to fear.It sounds like you are saying hate is ok as long as it comes from rationale and reason?
I have nothing to fear but fear itself.The only hate here is the hate you imagine and transfer onto others.
You fear your god.You are good at imagineing negative things in other peoples post, but I suppose this is a reflection on your outlook in life.
And NO I do not fear God! I sometimes am afraid that He and I do not agree on what is best for me.
But then I also fear that sometimes the things I want may not be best for me.
SO I guess that sometimes I do fear things. These things are usually found within myself.
It seems I am my worst enemy.
edit I gotta go do something productive for a whileAnd yet, YOU are the one claiming to see hatred. Contradict much?
Wow. And when you get done with your crayons, come over here and I'll explain why two plus two actually does equal four to you.
On many occasions your posts have clearly exhibited no understanding of what's good other than what your indoctrinated Calvinist beliefs have taught you.
Yeah. Keep telling yourself that. Certainly makes it easier.
No need, I'll continue to point them out as we go along.
Isn't good good and bad bad? Don't hurt anyone in anyway and help those in need. Or do you think God allows exceptions, like radical muslims and their jihad?
I think that God tells us we should tell other people about Jesus, while most of society seems to believe that it's not such a nice thing to do.
Jihad? Are you serious?Jihad is what radical muslims take from the Qur'an to be good or instructed by God. They don't see the bad in Jihad.
That was still quite a conclusion to jump to. Sometimes I feel that you're not so much talking to me as to this straw man who exhibits all the behaviors you attribute to conservative Christians and can be easily written off with psych terms like "superego." And this was one of them.
No, I'm trying to understand why you don't see the hypocrisy.
Which just basically underscores my point. It's not hypocritical to tell people about God. And never have I advocated, nor have I ever said God advocates, anything equivalent to jihad. So again, I feel like you're pulling out a straw man argument, talking to someone who fits your ideas about a conservative Christian and who you can then argue with but not talking to me.
I'm trying to understand how you can claim your God to be forgiving and loving and then say he will send us who don't believe he exists to burn in hell. There is nothing loving or forgiving about that, and I'd like to think we have conversations. This is a place where we can be honest and talk about these things.
Exactly, why couldn't God just love and forgive those who don't accept Him rather than sending them to an eternal hell? Makes no sense.
This may seem like splitting hairs, but I don't look at it as He sends us to hell. He has clearly laid out the choice and the consequence, either positive or negative, of making it. If we choose to not follow Him in this life, we will not be required to follow Him in the next one. It's not a pleasant place, but it's not like we weren't warned.
It's simply untrue to say that god does not send someone to hell. It's a simple equation, really.
1) did god create hell?
yes, according to Christians
2) Did god create the criteria by which souls are judged?
yes, according to christians
3) Does anything happen that goes against god's will?
no, according to christians.
Then the christian god (if he exists) is ultimately responsible for everything, including the people that he sends to hell or heaven.Aha! You're a secret hyper-Calvinist!
Boy, I should have guessed!
Seriously, I have lamented many times that the soundbite-friendly format of these forums does not lend itself well to in-depth discussion, and I have thought about what I was trying to say and have realized that I haven't conveyed my real thoughts very well.lol, no I'm not a secret calvanist of any stripe - I'm just used to conversing with them. I had a lot of verbal, organized debates with a calvanist once, and he had to admit defeat (at least on the subject of god sending people to hell) when I presented him with that equation.
Might be worthy of a hub some time. I do present the way I look at it, but not the entire spectrum of what I think.
I have, in fact, written a hub on the equation of hell. It got the same, general protestations - nothing significant.
You don't look at it as if he sends us to hell? But he sends us to hell, and for what? Not being able to believe in a God that I don't see has nothing to do with how good a person is so why would he punish us so terrible for that?
Again, you don't look at it that way because you're friends with the school yard bully and are too afraid to stand up against him. To make matter even worse this school yard bully has never shown up for class, all you have is an empty desk and a note telling all what he will do if don't do as he says.Oooooo.
"Friends with the school yard bully." As someone who has spent more than his share of time getting picked on by school yard bullies, that was one phrase I really never expected to see. However, as I've said to JM (and to others in the past) the sound-bite friendly format of these forums don't really provide good space for laying out what I really think, which is a bit more complex than what I've been saying.
Nice to be back again with you my friends.
As in James 2:14-26, "What does it profit brethren if someone says has faith but does not have works.? .... but if you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead... Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son by the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.' He was called the friend of God. You see then that man was justified by works and not by faith only."
Faith comes with BELIEVING in spirit, in things that we cannot see, works come in LIVING IN THE SPIRIT, and using material things to WORK for GOD's GLORY and TOWARDS RIGHTEOUSNESS as we live in this worldly life.
Spreading the truth in God's words and the gospel, and at the same time becoming true witnesses to this truth by example is what pleases God the most ... whatever leads to 'Love of God with all your heart, mind, body and soul and to the love of others."
If we live by WORKS ALONE, yet we FAIL to LOVE in our faith, will our faith be complete and perfect? Do we show our love for GOD by DENYING HIM and HIS TRUTH, are we really following HIM in JESUS or are we content doing lip service?
How can we see good works when we malign, condemn and judge others? Is it not God to judge and condemn, and we to GUIDE and ENLIGHTEN? But how can we enlighten if we have malice and hatred in our hearts, and not UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.
Again, let us not be deceived by evil, my friends, for he comes in woolen clothing out to make pawns of us and later to devour us. Let us pray for discernment by invoking the Holy Spirit to guide us in our ways, to God's ways. Blessings.May irritate non-believers, ATM, as it 'may bore them to death,' if I may say, and those who may find convenience and denying Christ as the norm instead of true repentance and renewal.
But for true believers, they may pray for discernment, guidance and enlightenment, and prefer to do what is pleasing to the Lord, whom they may love more than what this world may offer, as presented earlier, all things in this life being all but passing, and consider this life as temporary and a stepping stone to the true and real life, onto eternal bliss.
May we not disregard the truth that true believers are out to destroy the advances of science and technology. Certainly not, for God has gifted us with talents and all good things in life He has helped create that we may better appreciate His goodness and the beauty of His creation. The more we understand our purpose in this life, the more we may see the beauty and the joy of living in faith, by God's grace, and living in the love and care of others.It is highly disrespectful and selfish, let alone irritating. We don't need to hear about Jesus when we've already rejected Him as myth and superstition.
Whether it is preferred or not, it is an act of complete selfishness and disrespect to others.
Yes, and instead to embrace ignorance and intolerance.
Gibberish.Gazing at the mirror, as you reflect on the truth in your past, ATM, and telling yourself the same words you just have uttered in disrespect of others, may this better enlighten you to God's presence in your life, and how He has many times in the past called you back to His flock where we all belong, to accept the truth that many has learned to live by in the humility of their hearts and spirit, and have found true peace and joy in their lives, more than this world can give, simply because they have seen the wonders of living in the lighted path.
To the natural person who does not believe in spirit because it is foolishness to him, as in 1 Corinthians 2:14, may continue to be lost in the better understanding of God and His words, at best discerned in spirit and in fervent prayer.
Again, your actions can best identify who your master is my friend. May you not be deceived by the false and fully masked master who has power only on those who continue to put their fears on material things that do not last and satisfy, and forget where we all came from, and who has the power to destroy both body and soul in hell, as in Matthew 10:28.
Blessings.Seems more that they have merely accepted ignorance as bliss. No thanks.
Sorry, but there are no invisible puppeteers pulling on some invisible strings. one way or another. Perhaps, one who is totally lost in reality must pretend to have invisible masters voices talking to them and telling them what to do.Nice to be back. If you can't see what I can see, ATM and atheists, it's because you refuse to see what I see, so sorry to tell you this truth. Invisible, yes, but can it be perceived by the spiritual person and sometimes may even see visions as he may be gifted to see, and as God may allow him to see from beyond what others may not.
If I can see what you can see, but you cannot see what I see, together with other true Christian believers, because we have learned how being humbled to God may see yourself gifted by faith and by His grace, to see what others cannot see, would you still be happy remaining more than half blind in this world?
If you're content with what you see, and refuse to see what others see, who do you think is stopping you to see what others see or perceive?
Will you need to wait until that time when you are called and humbled in mortal death to see what you refused to see in your life time? In some NDE's (Near Death Experience), the flesh is but a humbled matter. With the astral body or spirit leaving its mortal body, its movement and existence solely depends on God's prodding and control. He may either see this as a life changing experience which most did with a greater fear of God than before, or he may see this as a meaningless experience, just like an ordinary dream, as a few may have described their experience to be, not realizing the true purpose or reason of their journey into the spiritual realm. Or, perhaps, they never cared because they are used to deceiving people or manipulating people out of their made up stories or fallacies, still unable to shun from the lures of vanity, fame and material gains that may only lead them to more trouble, emptiness and defeat.
To destroy the spirit in hell is God's option as He may so will anything He may want to do with His creation.
One's astral state may, therefore, be humbled, as God may so choose, or it may be glorified as God may see one empowered. So with one's mortal remains, will this not be subject also to God's judgment and disposition? The soul returning to its body and back to life is obviously and purely God's call, with Jesus having power over life and resurrection.
Would you rather play god than humble yourself to the one true God in Jesus? God gave us free will. If you think your pride is all that matters in this life as you believe more in yourself than listening to others' true to life spiritual experiences and testimonies, and despite His invitation for you to return to Him and join His flock of believers, go ahead and join your 'master of deceit, falsehood, vanity and pride,' that may eventually lead you to love of 'self' than love of others.
Less you may awaken in your senses, and see the truth in God's words, then are you really loving yourself, or would you rather remain lost into 'self pity?'
As I have seen Saint Paul's definition of 'love' to be the best as it is attuned to God's unconditional love for us all, may we all be guided towards God's love and see us filled with peace and joy as we give glory to His name. Blessings.My eyes work perfectly fine, and you are not telling the truth.
No, you are not gifted or special that you can see gods and others can't.
Again, you are not special and cannot see anything different than anyone else.
Gibberish.You see what your eyes can see, ATM. If historical truths is what people see, do you believe then in historical truths just as what I have posted as 2 previous links to miracles on faith in prayer about the Hiroshima bombing 8 Jesuit missionaries as survivors, and the miracle of the Holy Eucharist in Argentina?
Again, as a refresher, here are the links:
1. http://holysouls.com/sar/rosarymiracle.htm
Godspeed.we've already addressed your "miraculous" Hiroshima event. There were a lot of survivors - some of which were even closer to the blast than these priests - this proves nothing. It proves that 8 priests survived a bomb blast - just like many other people did. their faith had nothing to do with it.
and the second link with scientific proof, 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APz1v8oz1ms
Blessings.scientific proof on YouTube? And here I thought we were going to discuss scientific, peer reviewed research.
But the 8 Jesuits did not have any effect of radiation on them? The other survivors have, what does this mean JMF?
no, not all of the other survivors have radiation poisoning. while it was common, it was not unheard of for survivors to remain unscathed. I'm sorry, but your "miracle" is nothing more than chance as evidenced by the fact that it was not restricted solely to 8 catholic priests - or catholics in general.
As we all see, your eyes see no more or less than anyone else. Unless of course, you have cataracts or something.
Are you still harping about that? Non-believers who were closer to the blast survived. So what?
Then why come on this hub to listen ,you have a choice to not be on the page. so you will not have to listen since you are a none believer.there are pages for those who not want to hear this subject.
You have a choice not to disrespect and irritate others.
In other words, you will disrespect and irritate others no matter what they say. That's called selfishness.
There are many people who do not want to hear that subject.And if that is you . then your choice is to move to another hub or subject. your motive is very clear ,and mabe you can not speak for others but you can speak for yourself , be the example you do not have to listen move on to a hub you agree with. Instead of stoning people who have a right to their choice.
Considering how a lot of Christians treat nonbelievers (and sometimes fellow believers). This may not have been the best choice of words
So it is ok to be stoned for the right to say what you believe , and yet this person does not believe on the subject at all. It's not about the words it is about truth and your right to say it without being attacked by people who do not believe at all.
You're not being stoned, so no reason to fabricate being victimized.
There is no truth in what you offer.No one is being stoned. No wait...rape victims in Muslim countries are bring stoned because of their religious beliefs. someone criticizing, mocking or arguing with your beliefs does not mean that you're being persecuted. It means that someone else with differing beliefs disagrees with you and they're free to express their opposition. I get that christianity a lot of times encourages a martyr complex, but no one is persecuting you by disagreeing. If you don't like it, maybe you shouldn't get involved with the discussion.
What I was stating is that Christians verbally stone him (and others) for the fact that he lacks belief or because they believe differently. (figuratively speaking). It is about the tight to say what we want, but when he speaks it he gets attacked by believers.. Two sides of the same coin. I might not agree with ATM on a lot of things, but I still respect his right to say what he wants as long as it's within the guidelines of HP
Your choice is to keep your religious beliefs behind closed doors where they belong and not out in public.
As is yours.
Be the example, stop shoving your beliefs down peoples throats.This is long familiar talk, learned from adversary. But spreading disbelief lies should be public, right?
That kind of comment shows a complete lack of thinking.
Would anyone need to talk about disbelief at all if it were not for the religious shoving their beliefs down our throats? Seriously dude, give some actual thought to your posts.
What is this another historical event, a spiritual miracle in material form, the Holy Eucharist, or the sacred host, representing the body and blood of Jesus consecrated during the Eucharistic celebration of the mass and distributed to that faithfuls during holy communion, http://www.loamagazine.org/nr/the_main_ … enos.html, mean to you?
An atheist investigating this event, Dr. Castanon, converted to the faith as he has seen with his own eyes the wonder of God's truth in His words.
Jesus said in John 6:53-56, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”
Who am I to question God's truth in His words as I have seen many miracle of my faith? Who am I to question God's truth if I have seen how God's hands move in this 'land of the free and of the brave,' so in the Middle East, in Africa, and the rest of the world, how He has many times reminded us to go back to Him and to His ways in respect and honor to life, and in following His words and commands.
If history repeats itself and dictators come and go, so with false beliefs, do we not see how God repay the good and the wicked?
Uhri is right, religion is a belief system about the existence of God or supernatural beings - and for me, and perhaps Uhri, other Christian faithfuls and I are united in this truth (although he may profess a different concept) - Jesus is beyond religion, for He is in all of us, in our being, and He wants us back to Him, and be one with Him in rejecting all evil in this world.
Unless we accept His truth, we may always be lost in darkness. By faith and in doing good deeds, may we see our world greatly prosper, healed by God's love, mercy and grace.Dr. Castanon, an atheist like you ATM, is honest enough to accept that truth for he has seen this miracle of the Holy Eucharist, or the sacred host in holy communion, which represents to body and blood of Christ, miraculously living with the blood of Christ who died for your sins and mine, that we may all be forgiven, if only we believe and humble ourselves to God and live by His grace.
This is incredibly easy to test. Next time you go to take communion, once the priest has blessed the bread and wine, don't consume it. Take it to a medical laboratory and have them run tests on it. If it is actual blood and flesh, have then do a DNA test. Simple way to prove your claims.
Test it before it is blessed too...
Cause if it flesh and blood then, he might want to consider switching churches.I think that's another religion altogether.
A truly EPIC religion. Anthony Hopkins as a spiritual leader. I would so go to that church...
I've tasted many, none taste like any meat I've ever consumed, and I've consumed a lot of meat. I wonder if the priest really think they were given the power to change the molecular makeup of food and water.
Again ATM, try telling this to yourself as an atheist who rejects the truth, even when he sees it and in scientific reports, and still clings to what his mind and intellect believes in.
Let not evil deceive you my friend. When someone tells you to lie to yourself and not to believe in what even scientific proofs say, be wary of the evil one getting into your innermost being, slowly devouring you in your ego, not being able to distinguish anymore a lie from the truth, a non-sensible from the sensible, from what is wrong and what is right, from what is darkness and from what more freeing and fulfilling, that of staying guided and protected in God's light.
Hell is the absence of God and the presence of darkness, confusion, pressures, hatred, arrogance and malice, propagated by Satan and his cohorts that more may join him in their selfish and non-caring ways, and bring them to emptiness, to sadness, and despair, onto endless torture and pain, as against what God in Jesus leads us to, to unending peace and joy in one's heart and spirit.
Do we see all these, yes, even more than these, in bountiful blessings of peace and joy, if we have true faith in Jesus, only then will we perceive and share in this truth, as we are healed and empowered in our spirit, because God is spirit, so is the evil one, being a lesser spirit, and only has power when one, in his assumed intelligence and temporal, material power becomes engulfed by his own material dreams that all end up meaningless when one dies and has no choice but to be humbled before the Lord.
God's love extends from us to you my friends, let material things work for God and our love for others. Let humility to God reign and try showing more of your love for others than yourself. Try it with discipline and in prayer even 'for only a moment, a day, a week, or much better fo a month' and see the difference of letting go of your pride, your ego and your will, and let God in Jesus reign in your heart, that you may be saved eternally.
You are your own words. Your words and what you say to other, and poke fun ,there is nothing funny about what people believe ,Again if you do not like the freedom of speech ,you do not have to be on this hub.
When those beliefs rival kindergarten fairy tales, then yes, there is something very funny about what adults believe. If it wasn't so tragic and dangerous at the same time, it would be utterly hilarious.
Invoking the right to free speech, giving you ample justification to shove your beliefs down our throats?
Oh yes, and referring to all of us as swine.Now your words prove who is really funny.
And is still on this hub! Point proven.
And to add what makes you the professor of fairy tales ,you have nothing to prove, nothing to show , you know nothing of the subject ,why listen to you about anything ,because you can not relate ,, but you want to stone and make fun of those who can. It is very clear, and you are making fun of people's rights, and you are admitting to it. be-careful!
I am not stoning anyone, no need to fabricate more fairy tales.
I am not making fun of your right to believe in childish fairy tales.
You do understand that an atheist started this forum about common Christian apologetics, right?
I am aware of many believes and faiths or rather it be atheists ,it still is disrespectful to make fun of what people take very serious , and what he says he is not doing, he is doing , which puts him under a another title.
You're making it sound like atm, me and other atheists are showing up in Christian forums and insulting believers left and right. While I do go into Christian forums to have discussions (and we have every right to) you are coming into an atheist based forum and criticizing the tactics of atheists. Its ridiculous. Ridiculing, arguing or disagreeing with your personal beliefs does not equate to stoning or persecuting believers. People are actually dying in the world because of their religion. No one is threatening you. No one is torturing you. We are well within our rights to disagree with, laugh at or ridicule any beliefs we want, as long as we follow the rules and stay away from personal attacks. attacking a belief is not three same as attacking a person. Sorry
Yes I would take it very personal when some one mocks my words every time I make a commit, and this person has done it on other forums , it might be true of the title to this forum , yet it invites others and no one is making fun of him. It is a very serious thing your faith ,there is still nothing funny about it ! It does not make me laugh. Attacking a believe to destroy someone spiritual outlook is wrong. No one is laughing at atheist .So show the same respect.
Are you kidding? People mock, threaten and harass me and other atheists constantly. You've got to be blind to miss it. If you choose to take something personally, that's your problem, and not the problem of the person making the comment. If we abide by the forum rules, we can say whatever we like.
There is no reason to offer blind faith respect for it does not respect anything or anyone and only serves to keep mankind enslaved in ignorance. No one is stopping you from embracing that slavery, but why anyone would is mind boggling.
Wrong ! Try saying anything you want or like ! Hubpages will let you know when you cross the line. And mr RD example everyone human is not blind ,many can see very good say 20/20 vision. Your opinion of people is already in the lowest esteem , why would some one consider anything you have to say , just to make themselfs feel worse , perhaps the blind one is really you ,because others can see and you can not. That explains it.
Where are you from? I don't think English is your first language, is it?
Rather it is or not you understand to respond.
that's a perfect example of a not-native english sentence.
So nothing. I asked if they were a native english speaker, because some of their sentences were mismatched/the words were in a strange order, and it made it difficult to follow a conversation already in progress between me and her - not that I am required to answer to you.
With your superior intellect, it should be easy for you to follow.
and when have I ever claimed to have superior intellect over anybody?
Actually, I must be a moron because I had no idea what he/she was talking about.
I guess that makes both of us stupid together, because all I did was ask if English was the native language. To me, it seemed like the words were out of order in such a way that I couldn't make sense out of a lot of it. If that makes me stupid, then so be it I guess. So much for asking for clarification.
I am not your princess, darling. You know nothing about my attitude. Why don't you limit your comments to things you actually know about.
and you call me a troll? Projection much?
You said previously that humility is not your thing, and that your god is working on your arrogance with you. If he ever succeeds, I may be more prone to believe you. Until then? It's just a joke.
while I can usually decipher what it is you're trying to say, it's not always easy. Sometimes it seems as like you're posting your responses through an online translator, and it flips around and disorders some of the words.
In that case , I will agree the device I am using tends to replace a word ,that I do not wish to use some time I can catch it before I post a commit , But we seem to understand the conversation with errors.
"why would some one consider anything you have to say , just to make themselfs feel worse , perhaps the blind one is really you ,because others can see and you can not. That explains it"
This statement is an example of what ATM gets regularly from believers.To Mr DM that is your opinion of what you think people get. And you may be offended by the statement , but it sounds just right to me. I could say who really likes your word usage of believers and none as though we are something you look down on.
I didn't say I was offended by it.. I was simply pointing it out as an example. I know a lot of people don't like my word usage (atheist or fellow Christians). On the other hand, I make it a point to also be careful of what I say and I apologize if I offend anyone. I'm not looking down on anyone specifically, I simply disagree with some things and express either my disagreement, or I objectively (like now) point out the other side of the spectrum. It would appear that you are wanting respect, but statements (that you deem fit the situation) that you made toward ATM could be seen as offensive and disrespectful.
If you notice he stays that way ,and has always been offensive to many , You have feelings for someone who disrespects God Almighty ? there is a line and limit ,there is only two sides, you definitely are showing favor to the other, You can not reason with the devil ,God Almighty has Judge him already, neither can you change the ones who choose to follow him , I am not looking to please any man ,because that is in vain, But I know I wish to please the one who created us all.
so you're saying that your disrespectful comments are okay and even warranted because you feel like ATM and other atheists are being disrespectful to your god? Why should we be respectful to something that we don't believe in? I don't believe in a god, and I treat your version of god the same way that I would treat Zeus, Apollo, Allah, Krishna or any other god claim out there. I treat them the same way that I treat Bigfoot or Aliens or the Tooth Fairy. Until a god has been demonstrated to exist, I feel no need to offer that god deference or respect. Furthermore, even if a god can be shown to exist (which I don't believe is possible) you then have to determine whether that god is WORTHY of respect - and I don't find the christian interpretation of god to be deserving of respect at all. He demands fear and blood sacrifice in order to appease him - why would you offer that deity respect or adoration?
Still further, offense is in the eye of the one being offended. I can make a lot of comments that are not meant or intended to be offensive to someone else, but that doesn't mean that someone else won't choose to be offended by them. It is impossible to say almost anything without the possibility of someone being offended by it.I do not expect some one like you and alike to respect The God I represent. for my comment was not meant for you , notice I did not say your name. It is very clear of your choice. And you have that right , as I said before I do not look for any human approval accept that one Who I speak for, Because I am not the one who judges. And I am not here to debate words with you and others , but I will speak when I should .
But you are debating with me and others, and you're offended when we seem to be disrespectful of your god, yet you say you don't expect us to respect your god. Which one is it? If you don't expect us to be respectful, then how can you be offended when we're not.
Offensive to many, but not all. The only ones that he has been offensive toward are those who 1) Take offense to him and 2) He feels have offended him. He isn't offensive toward me anymore because I stopped taking offense, but I also offered him respect. When I first joined HP, ATM and other atheists were every bit as harsh and mocking toward me because I am a Christian. However, instead of reducing myself to name calling, I offered them respect for their lack of belief and continued to clarify myself and my statements in defending my beliefs. You mentioned that it takes giving respect to get respect. I agree with your statement, but the problem is that some people are so prideful that they demand to be respected first before they offer their own. Instead of demanding to be respected first, I Choose to offer respect first. Now, I might not agree with the atheists altogether, they treat me differently than they do others because I am respectful toward them. ATM's statements are still strong toward me and my beliefs, but not as strong as they once were.
The only feelings I have is the feeling of respect for his right to say what he wants and to believe (or disbelieve) as he wants. God loves ATM the same as he loves all of his creation. In the bible, it says to love your neighbor as yourself. Christ himself loved, showed tolerance and respect to all regardless of how they treated him or how they spoke of God. He even gave his life for those that sought to discredit him and destroy him. God loved us enough to send his son down to earth to die for us.. He didn't say it was only for those who spoke well of him. As Christians, we are supposed to follow Christ's example of showing love, tolerance, and respect for all regardless of how you are treated. So I must ask you this question.. Based on your previous comments towards and about ATM, Rad Man, And JM as well as your blanket statements towards atheists in general, how exactly are you following Christ's example and keeping God's commandment?
I am not showing any favor to one side or the other. I willingly admit that ATM makes comments that can be deemed offensive. On the other hand, I also will defend anyone who is being attacked by those who would then demand to be respected. You are demanding that your beliefs be respected while making statements of your own that can be deemed disrespectful towards others. Like you stated yourself, if you want to be respected, you must show respect.
I am not trying to reason with the devil. God has judged the devil already. But at the same time, you cannot say who does or does not follow the devil without placing yourself in a position of God and passing judgment. If you are judging (which it appears you are doing), Then I remind you of Matthew 7:1-5..
Another thing, Atheists do not believe in anything (whether God nor the devil. With this in mind, one cannot follow what they do not believe in. If you wish to remain dogmatic in your approach to the atheists here, By all means go ahead, but please stop talking about you not being respected when you are not following the golden rule yourself.Is that why no one can never reason with believers?
So few words, so much gibberish.
Odd too, that you would assume I'm talking about people when instead I'm talking about their beliefs.
Some may not actually laugh at atheists for their lack of belief, but disrespect is still shown when some Christians not only beat them over the head with the bible but also threaten them with hell for their unbelief. Why should atheists respect some Christians when they are not being shown the same respect in return.
I was always thought it takes it to get it. True there are some Christians that use the bible in the wrong way ,but that is the same thing as accusing all believers of God ,If one man is bad ,does that make all men bad. No! You group all Christians to gather as to the wrong of disrespect ,this is not right, I have never beat anyone with the bible or gave them a judgement of hell ,that is not my Job to give a judgement ,my part is only to share what I know and that is up to you to think about it or leave the thought. I can not live or die for you,but I can share something that might save lives. In a spiritual way.
If you noticed my statement, I said SOME.. I didn't lump all Christians together. If i Were to say all Christians were bad, I'd be including myself. I didn't accuse you of beating anyone over the head. I was simply making an observation regarding how some behave.
Yes, they create threads referring to atheists as swine, and then the rest of the crew fall in behind for support.
You are sharing nothing, you are only shoving your beliefs down our throats. Please stop immediately.
DM you are absolutely right. Only problem is many are arrogant. I am not going spend valuable time with unproductive discussions. Many atheists are bullying Christians without evidence. Christians never should be in closet, never was and never will. They are essence of society. They changed the world. In the contrary Marxists destroyed everything they could. Chaos is their tool.
This statement can apply to many Christians as well. Many Christians bully atheists with threats of hell and by insulting them for the simple reason that they do not believe in a god.
For some, attacking the belief is the same because it is the person that has the belief. Some are unable to separate the two
Hello DM, there are differences between believers and religious. True believers are not religious. To religion belongs any believe system including atheists, politician... The atheists believe there is not God. Religion is belief system about God, His Word and moral values. This is my definition I use.
I am aware of the difference between the two.. Actually as a manner of correction Atheists do not believe that there is no god.. They simply believe that there is not enough evidence to support the existence of God. That does not mean that they are not open minded as to the existence of God. They are simply looking for sufficient proof.
I know, Rad.. I know.. Maybe you should find an easier question to ask...LOL
Romans 1: 20 says it all , For some will never want or get it , even if it is in front of there eyes ,and even if it flows though there lungs they still will never see prove. It is written there is no excuse not to believe.
No I am not debating with some one who does not believe in God ! I never gave you a bible scripture,,never mention God to you as a choice ,never even directed my comment about God to you , Or those that agree with you, if you look back on the post you will see where TM ,commits on my commits in a negative way. When I am answering some one else's commits. What I am saying is I am not at all surprise of your stand ,I am we'll aware of your believe but there is disrespect in how this person jumps in and stone the conversation of the subject , it is disrespectful for a child to interrupt an Adult conversation just to be rude and eruptive. That is the example I only know how to give. we as adults should be able to commit with out some one clowning ,name calling ,and laughing at others as the subject is funny it is not funny , another example would you laugh in a soldiers face ,after he has been though life and death for his country, just because you are not a soldier, no ! It would be disrespectful , that is serious, so is ones faith rather you believe in it or not.
To Mr DM , my post have really been to those who are Christians ,and it is not to debate ,it is not to look down on any one , true God loves us all rather we believe or not. But that is not the issue I see here ,the issue is people treat his person disrespectful ,They stand up for there're truth, in a fierce way , are we to compromise the truth and the right ,just to please some one who disrespects what is holy. You are making it about me , it is about what you are suppose to represent, Jesus said pick up your torture stake and follow me , And you are the one judging me how I feel about my faith , Jesus loved all people ,but there was a limit when Judas betrayed God's Son ,Judas committed wrong against the spirit of God ,example ,The employer tells you to go and represent the company at a meeting ,you go they stone you because they do not believe there is a boss, you say you represent the boss, So they tell you to get loss. We do not want to hear anything you have to say , and they slander his name with fairy, you try to reason with them and they do not listen, is it appropriate to join in and help them feel as though they are right, or is it easier for you to Join in. what I am saying ,is this quote in a movie and maybe you will get it , people that will not stand up for what is right might fall for anything. There is a time to stand up. And stop attacking me ,it is about Almighty God .
No one, least of all DM is attacking you! Stop claiming persecution just because people disagree with your beliefs, your statements and your approach. No one is being stoned. No one is being persecuted. We are fully within our rights to disagree with you, and the concept of your god is ludicrous and absurd to many, many atheists - and they have the right to express their opinions - just like you do. I don't find Christianity funny in as much as I find it disturbing, immoral and repugnant. Telling people that they have a disease (sin) and then offering them a cure and telling children that they're inherently evil and unworthy of love (see: the good news club which is currently circulating in public schools across the country) is borderline abuse - and I think that religion is the poison of society - not the cure. Your god is no different to me than the tooth fairy, my purple invisible pet dragon or the boogeyman under the bed, and I am able to express myself and my beliefs in any way that I see fit - as long as I abide by the rules of the place that I'm posting. If you take offense to that, then that's on you - not on me, or any other atheist that frequents these forums.
You can say what ever you wish ,and believe whatever you wish ,and I will continue as I wish , you do not have control over my faith ,or my reasoning so nothing you say really disturbs me ,because for one we have nothing in common. So if that is what makes you feel good about your words and how you use them ,good for you. I did not make the last post to you and you commit for some one who can commit for himself. Again you set the example of point.
what are you talking about? You entered this conversation by responding to a comment that was not directed at you to begin with. The point of a forum is that anyone can comment on anything, and if you accuse a fellow christian of attacking you (or previously stoning you) just for disagreeing with you, it's uncalled for. DM is completely capable of speaking for himself, but if I see someone making unfair accusations directed at him, I'm sure as heck going to speak up about it. You seem to have a double standard when it comes to forum discussions. You want to be able to say whatever you want, and no one had dare disagree with you, but you don't seem to understand that it works the other way around just as well. That's hypocrisy. You cannot set yourself up on a pedestal and expect everyone else to conform to your rules. If you're free to do something, then so is everyone else - as long as they abide by the rules of the forum.
To use the situation for your personal attacks is in vain , because you will not use me to do it. there will be no post to you from me and to TM ,because you are truly not worth it.end
Nothing I've ever said to you can be considered a personal attack - and I think that atheist and christian alike will agree with me on that one.
Once again, criticizing someone's beliefs about ANY subject, not only religion, is not a personal attack. I'm an atheist, but my atheism doesn't define me. Your religious beliefs are not all that you are. If you take my words personally, then that seems to be a problem on your end - not on mine or anyone else.
Looking at our conversation, you can clearly see who addressed whom personally first. So if anyone is being stoned.. she is not the only one that was stoned.
With this statement, I have to ask for clarification: Are you referring to ALL religion? or ORGANIZED religion? If you are referring to organized Christianity, then I tend to agree to an extent with you.. But I can't totally agree with ALL. Not all Christians look at others as they have a disease
Scratch fluffy behind the ears for me
I appreciate that you have adjusted your tone with me even though you may not agree with me all the time
Saying something is "holy" so it deserves respect is as irrelevant as saying it's purple.
No one is attacking you, we are laying waste to the Almighty God.No Christian is compromising the truth just to please anyone. I do not compromise my beliefs at all on here. I defend my beliefs as passionately as anyone here. The difference is that at the end, I am able to agree to disagree without reducing myself to name calling or any other personal attack and move on to the next conversation.
,
I am making it about you?? I am attacking you?? Really? If you look back at our conversation, in the beginning I was making general statements regarding the treatment ATM gets from some Christians on this site. In fact, between you and I the first person that made a direct personal comment toward the other one was you when you said (and I quote)
To which you followed it up with (and again I quote)
Both statements I ignored and still maintained my neutral stance with my comments... I only then addressed you directly after you came back at me saying :
Which in itself would appear (to some) that you were questioning my faith in the way I handled an atheist.. It was at this point that I then started addressing you directly. So, for all tents and purposes, you took the first direct shots at me. So now that I am addressing you in a like manner, you now scream that I am attacking you?? Now, I'm not going to throw out the "H" word, but I will state that the contradiction in behaviors is glaring from your initial jabs at me to now my response to you. I have stated it before and I will state it again (while still showing you as much respect as I possibly can considering now I am feeling disrespected), to get respect, you must first give respect. I feel that I was responding to you respectfully in the beginning (until you kept taking jabs at me), but you have not shown me that same respect. At this point, I am choosing to agree to disagree with you and bowing out of this particular conversation with you since you are not addressing me with the same respect I have tried to show you.. You continue to be blessed and handle people the way you see best, but as a fellow Christian, I still care enough about you to offer the advice that If you continue to respond the way that you do then you will continue to be ridiculed by the atheists or mostly anyone that you treat in a disrespectful manner. God bless youIt is clear we do not serve the same God. This is my last post to you.
But isn't there only one God? The one that created everything?
To wilderness ,there is one The Father who created all things, and there is the Son who all things where created through Jesus ,
The other god forces are satan and his demons ,who also have position in powers over all parts of the earth. Soon their rulership will be up.
This is why the earth is damaged and no matter who they put in office they all fail ,the earth gets worse with nuclear powers ,at the hand of satan .our food source is damaged our air polluted due to his rulership. when God gave Adam and Eve this planet, it was paradise ready and they lived long, and people back then could live longer ,their cells renewed without giving out on them ,like we do today.Yes there are many other gods. I did a hub on the history of many Gods found on inscribed ancient artifact. You would be surprise of the numbers.haven't you repeatedly said "the end" and you're "done discussing" with us? Yet you still continue to post - so how can we take your words seriously when you can't even do what you claim you're going to do? You've lost your credibility and your persecution/martyr complex has gotten way out of control.
- Yes, so many that we just don't have enough fingers and toes to count them.
OK, defining God as the one who created all things (as opposed to a "god" who did NOT create), I'll go out on a limb here and assume that is the specific god you worship.
Deepes Mind will say the same thing, even as you claim his god is a different one. To the casual observer or forum reader, neither claim is definitive; both are of equal value. The problem seems to be that you have decided your god has different attributes than DM's; perhaps your god (and DM's), satan, demons and Thor are all wrapped into one, simply showing different faces at different times.The funny thing is that there has been no discussion or debate regarding specific attributes of either her God or my God (not sure how they are different considering that we both are professed Christians, but I'm not going to get into that). The biggest issue is that I'm not bashing the atheists here even though atheists mock God (which is in their general nature since they don't believe.. which I respect) like other Christians here.. Apparently, I am not a Christian unless I am name calling or threatening others with Hell.
But I understand how observers place the same value on both claims. I place the same value in both claims as well.. The God that she serves is the God that works best for her. The God that I serve is the one that works best for me (so to speak). My God is no better universally than her God and we will find out whatever truth there is to know when we die (or when Christ returns) whichever happens first. (assuming that Christians are correct about the existence of GodBut atheists don't mock God (you can't mock something that isn't there) - they mock the concept and specifically the reasoning that produces that concept. Particularly when it is introduced as fact.
Few Christians will accept the existence of other gods; even the demons and satan that K&T references are not generally given the title of "God". So when you say she worships her god and you yours, it is taken as different perceptions of the same being; you believe your god has different attributes than she believes He does. Leading, in turn, to more mockery as both claim to know God intimately and yet have very different concepts of who He is.
Does that make sense?Makes perfect sense to me because I understand God only exists in the mind.
Therefore God is a concept only, not real. Imagination.
Unless, of course, you also postulate a very real "soul" that is what He occupies in the mind.I am communicating with you are you ,are you just in my mind?, there is evidence you exist as you respond to me and others. I have never seen you personally ,but I accept what I have as prove. you are your own prove of his existence .TO MrRD and MR W.
There are two things here I want to address.. The first thing is that I was speaking more figuratively than literally when I mentioned mocking God. I have learned enough about atheists that you don't see it as mocking because you lack belief in God and that it is the belief that you mock more than the actual being..
The second thing is that By no means do I specifically present my belief in God as total inimpeachable fact or truth. I present him as my particular belief system and anything I provide by way of explanation only is what reinforces my belief. I admit that I have no concrete universal proof of God. I also admit (and am open to the idea) that I could be wrong in said belief. As a result of that, I find it easier to discuss things with an open mind with atheists (as JM, Rad Man, and a couple of others can attest to).
I totally agree with your assessment of the possibility that there is one God that everyone sees differently and it is in that perspective that different religions grow from. I've read and studied a little on various different religions and have noted similarities in each religious holy book to the Bible. I personally, do not dismiss other religions as false or unreal (although others might choose to believe that way). I see them as other perspectives of the same entity. Of course this could lead to ridicule since few actually agree on that God, but for me, it's not too far out of the realm of possibility because different people see things differently.
On a side note, I do appreciate the fact that you are speaking respectfully to me even if you see me as delusional..LOL.. I am able to separate my personal emotions from my beliefs (which is why ATM doesn't bother me much... LOL)
Yes, notice that beliefs in God are more about what people want to believe as opposed to what their Gods want them to believe.
And, assuming every other religion is wrong.
To Mr wilderness I worship the God of Abraham ,the God who allowed himself to be found ,The God of Moses who release the Isrealites from slavery of the Eygtian king, Pharoah ,I worship The God who sent his son here to earth to buy our cure for sickness and death, So we could live here on the earth in a real paradise of happiness. I worship the God that Jesus his Son has said in Math6:9 Our Father who art in heaven let your name be sanctified ,your will be done on earth as in heaven, You see Jesus first concern was to vindicate his Fathers name to bring it glory and respect, would you not want to respect your physical father? You would bring honor and not allow others to mistreat or show disrespect., this is very clear there is a difference of worship, For Jesus himself has said many will say lord did I do this in your name ,and he will say get away from me you workers of lawlessness ,You see it is written not all worship will be accepted ,just because we believe, Matthew 7:22-23 ,I not only believe but I act with my believe and the vindication Of God Almighty's name. No we do not share the same God. Because it is clear who he defends.What child would not get offended if you called his father a fairy, how would you fill if a child laugh it off and agreed with the name callers. What would you think. this is a serious matter . but one thing that could be agreed on none of us has the last words.
Sorry, but there is no evidence for the existence of Moses or any release and exodus from Egypt of Israelite.
Notice how miserably that failed?
People don't call childrens fathers fairies because their real fathers actually exist, whereas your god has never been shown to exist, hence He is on par with fairies, unicorns, leprechauns, etc.Yes we know. But we're still going to respond humorously because...wait for it....we can! Freedom of speech and self expression is SUCH a tricky thing. Damn that lack of a double standard in the forum rules.
Yes, but anyone can see it's nonsense and acknowledge the nonsense for what it is.
To Mr wilderness if there are Jews and sabbath ,and
Festivals of Hanukkah .then ask a Jew about there family tree how did they get so Rich. They were released by the hand of the true God and they took the riches of Egypt with them. Today they are still a rich people.That's nothing but a stereotype. I know many Jews people who are not rich.
That is true ,but everyone that has wealth do not always keep it or keep it in the family.how many do we know have money and go bankrupt.
Wait, are you suggesting all the Jews today are rich from the money you think they took from Egypt?
To Mr RD .Yes a percent of wealth they took with them. And they traveled to the land God Almighty promised them known as the promised land ,the land flowing with milk and honey.They past what they inherit to there next of blood relatives who share there believes.
I do not say all Jews are rich because I do not know there finances ,and the history of how they passed down their wealth personally ,but I do know ,that they have been given many blessings and they are an example given to us ,to let us know what God will do for the new citizen ship on earth the New heavens ,meaning a new Government Ran from the heavens , and the new earth. ( which is the lords prayer) But the earth does have to be cleaned off ,first of all pollution, hazards , and people who do not want any part of it.
Sounds like we're on the same path about who you worship.
DM will make the same claim, that he worships the same god. He may even use the same scriptures to show which one it is.
Why, then, did you say he worships a different god? There is only one creator, you both worship Him - why would you say DM's god is not the same as yours? Just because you interpret the same scriptures differently?I know some like to say people worship the same God, but that's simply not true. The God that muslims worship is not at all the same as Christians worship. The same can be said of Catholics and Evangelical Christians. If the God's attributes are different it's not the same God.
To Beth there are many Gods, But there is only one who created us along with his Son Jesus.His name means he causes it to become ! Meaning exist.
The other gods are in opposition to the one who created all life on earth and in heaven, these other God's are fallen angels who took sides with satan, he gave them power and governments ,every Government here on earth is ruled by a spirit creator or fallen Angel ,or enemy of the true God . that is why all government have came and gone, and the earth is in ruins.they are the ones who give men power of earthly government.
Would you agree the earth is in a big mess,? bad government, pollution,food shortages in other countries,violence ,and threat of nuclear war. On to sickness and death. This is prove that we need a higher source of Government,and a new society of people that will agree that it is God who know what is good for us.It appears the version of God you get implanted in your mind is the one your mind feels you need. You seem to talk of a loving father figure, while others don't.
Because he is a loving father, many are still living even though they do not believe in him ,he still lets many enjoy what satan has not destroyed ,satan has painted him cruel ,so that people will be destroyed when the earth is cleaned off again. Are all fathers mean to there children? no! we have a hope that Adam and Eve threw away ,To see and live here on earth in good health, happiness, and what satan has destroyed in violence and war ,and sickness that has ended in death for many ,will be undone, God Almighty will reverse death and sickness ,Isaiah 33:24 says no one will say I am sick! And the ones who have died and are in God's memory will live again.,This is a promise, Hebrew 6:11 !
God is the God of the Bible. The whole Bible. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He has many facets to His personality, as we do... as we are created in His image. He is a disciplinarian as well as a tender provider. Are you just a cuddly dad whose kids walk all over him or do you lay down the law and teach them to follow? Do you allow your daughters to hang out alone with boys in their bedroom or would you go to any length to keep them safe? Do you tell them to take the safest route home or do you tell them to do as they please? A father takes on every role.
Sending people to roast for an eternity because they are not faithful is not discipline, it is an outright atrocity.
Tender provider? Tell that to the tens of thousands who die of starvation every day.
Yes, but he doesn't send his kids to an eternal lake of fire because they decided to walk home another rough or hang out in alone in a bedroom with boys.An absentees father that threatens his children with hellfire if they don't credit him with all the own work is not a good father. That's called extortion and we have laws against that.
The inescapable conclusion then is that there are multiple Gods, all of whom created us all. Or that nearly every believer (or all believers) on earth is wrong and their own god doesn't exist.
Of the two options, I know which one appeals to me...It doesn't matter which one appeals to any of us does it? We all want to be right, actually that's not true. I wish I were wrong and there is a loving God that's just about to show us his love by feeding the hungry and ending cancer and mental deceases. I wish I was wrong, but I'm not. All the believers can't even agree which Gods are the real ones. Crap some believe in thousands of separate Gods. How do we account for this? How are they just as convinced they are right as you are? Why are muslims convince that Jesus was a mere prophet?
To Mr Wilderness there is the almighty God who creates ,and there is the self made resister of our father .who is a mans layer of men.That fallen angle is a God too.people give him power and worship under many names, if it takes away from the true God it is his enemy ,he lied To Eve and she obeyed his voice instead of her creator ,that is why we all have death as our enemy.because satan challenge God's right to care and rule over his creations. Now we have seen the side without God interfering,and now that time is about up. we can be the Citizens that will see the earth the way it was meant to be. The Lord's Prayer has been answered. ,the fulfillment will soon take place ,with cleaning it up.
None of which answers the question of what makes your opinion/interpretation any better than DM's. Or anyone else's for that matter.
You keep giving your interpretations of scripture, but never an answer to that question. Can you answer it with objective, reasonable deductions, or is any answer just going to be more subjective interpretations of what you think God is or wants?
Because it is not what a person says it is what a person does, Say we say God is represented by a powerful tree ,by the fruit you will know a tree, not by the leave, it is by what the tree bears, My fruit is to vindicate or sanctify Almighty Gods name , To keep standing and treated with care ,his fruit is to please the ones who want to destroy the tree, We both do not represent the same faith of action ,and so we do not have the same God in common. Because it shows in his comments.now there is a god who has been trying to destroy what belongs to the tree, and he is still at work. We should not be his helpers.
I don't know...
Overall, I find DM's comments less obnoxious than yours most of the time. From my viewpoint, coupled with the declaration that your and DM's gods are different creatures, the gavel would probably come down on the side of DM worshipping God while you hang with Satan or the demons.
Of course, as both are nothing but imagination, the claim that one worships God while the other worships satan is nonsense anyway. Neither DM nor K&T has been able to offer any objective evidence that God OR satan even exists at all.to wilderness the question to you is have you ever known people that said they seen ghost? Or heard of voices of relatives who have died? Or some one in your family?
Many people aware of the spirit realm,we are of flesh and blood ,their bodies are made of spirit materials , we breath air ,we feel air yet we visually do not see what we breath ,the spirit body is similar,
To have any reasonable discussion of this, we'll need a definition of "spirit realm", "spirit materials" and "spirit bodies". Can you define these terms in such a way that we can at a minimum test to see if they are even real? Or maybe see the effects, effects that can only come from these things and not something originating in the material world?
Because if these words really mean "something I think is there but cannot detect, explain or define and that leaves no traces in the material world" then there isn't much to discuss.
Sure! I've seen claims on HP of seeing ghosts. Not a single one of which was investigated beyond "I saw a something that I think was a ghost".
Your point? That it is the same as declaring day after day that "I know God, I know what He wants, and I will force you to follow His orders if I can. I will teach your children to believe my fantasy as truth, and I will deny you any actions I deem to be against His will."? Because I do not see it the same at all.
I appreciate these comments Wilderness. I really try to be respectful of all here. My initial words may not always hit the mark, but if someone is offended, I am ready to provide as much clarification as I can with an apology for any who take offense (that I do not intend to offend.. Anyone who is trying to offend me sometimes get what they get.. hey, I'm still human...LOL)
And I will never try to offer anything of my beliefs as anything more than my belief because I know that all of it is subjective and not objective. Any "evidence" only reinforces my belief (or opinion) and as such I do not remotely try to pass any of it off as the total truth. I admit that I could be wrong in my belief and am more than willing to change my mind when the answer comes to light one way or the other.
Example two people work for the same company and they both go to a conference meeting,they are to represent the company ,one takes and uses what the boss gives him to use ,when the other one who has the same material does not use to promote company interest.
but his own interest ,his own way ,maybe even to look down on the one who is representing the company.even making the audience believe by the way he talks down to his fellow employer that they really do not have anything in common ,who is really learning anything about the company ,is the bosses representative doing his part, or is he attacking his fellow worker and taking sides with the other company not to hear the other coworkers obligation of info he is commission to give. that is the example I only know how to give.And, it is a worthless example as you fallaciously compare your irrational beliefs to real life.
And if you look at our beginning conversation, you will see which worker made the first direct attack (Hint: It wasn't me)
My fruit is to please those who want to destroy the tree? Sorry, But that would appear to be your fruit. Please look back on your comments to anyone here (especially another Christian) and show me where what you are doing is pleasing to God.. For every scripture you pull that proves you are pleasing God, I can pull one that shows your words, works, and fruits are not pleasing to God.. Once again, Back away from me with the personal attacks regarding my fruits and faith
Peace, Deepes.
The impression I get is that the entirety of human knowledge has been concentrated into one person, that no one else has anything to offer to humanity. Complete self absorption.
You will not get any reasonable response from such.I try Wilderness, I try. But I'm not trying to reason with anyone here nor tell them what they should or should not believe. This is up to each individual to find what works best for them. Nor do I seek to try to convert anyone over to my way of thinking and belief because 1) I have too much respect for people and what they want to believe, 2) In order for you (not you personally, figuratively speaking) to believe exactly how I believe, you must first experience what I've experienced and also have the same thought about it that I did. Since we are individuals, that would be borderline impossible. I also commented on another forum as far as why I wouldn't try to change an atheist's mind.. I will find it later. 3) My role here is to give information and keep it moving. If it is accepted, great.. If not, I still did my job.. and 4) What others believe (or not in the case of atheists) does not directly affect my life. Therefore I am not going to lose sleep over it..
I am trying to maintain peace, but sometimes it is difficult when someone (especially one who professes to be a Christian) keeps taking shots at me.
I like your fruits :-) That sounded a lot dirtier than I intended....nevermind.
HA!! I knew you secretly had a crush on me.. Don't worry, It will be our little secret. I won't tell the wives
roflmao....I just choked on my dinner, and if I have permanent damage to my laptop by spitting dr. pepper on it, I'm blaming you.
Not my fault you can't control your throat enough to swallow instead of spit...LOL.. Just have fluffy dry it using a low heat.. and please don't choke over there
Oh no, you didn't just ask her to swallow instead of spit?
LOL.. She is the one choking over there.. She kinda walked into that one
lol...omg....I read that post to my wife and I thought she was going to have coronary. Lol she said to tell you hi.
btw...in my world, that's not typically an issue ;-)LOL!! Tell wife hi!! And tell her don't mind me.. Sometimes I can't help myself from jumping on some statements..
i know the feeling. I did walk right into that one. My fault.
I'm sure I'll walk into something you will jump on later.. LOL
But hey, It was funny!!lol it was. I was grateful for that laugh on a Monday evening.
much, yes. At least I can breathe now. that's a step in the right direction.
I married a preschool teacher. She brings the germs home and thinks it's nice to infect me with them while she remains mostly unscathed. Stupid immune system.
Aw, Im sorry. I ended up with a bronchial and sinus infection that Ive held on to for over 6 mos. Ive been on an anti biotic 4 times and a steroid 3 now. If it doesn't go away this time, I have to get sinus surgery for the second time. I know just how you feel.
ugh...I hate it. When you have all that gluck in your throat, it makes you feel like you can't breathe or swallow. I managed to make it through the symphony on Saturday night, but on Sunday I was pretty much worthless to the world. Not to mention I think I had to sell my as-yet unborn firstborn child in order to get cold medicine and promise not to make meth out of it.
*gluck... I believe that is the correct medical term.
No wonder Ive been sick so long. I didn't even know to look for any deglucking meds. I have a lot to learn.
yeah, me too. I learned this weekend that cold medicine does nothing really to help the cold - it just knocks you on your rear so completely that you no longer care that you're sick.
lol... so I could take that when I don't have a cold, right?
I wish I could but I work at a high-profile financial company - and I don't think that being loopy on cold-medicine would help me in my efficiency on the job. When I get home, however, all bets are off.
I work at a grocery store... they're lucky I don't keep tequila under the desk.
I do call center work.. I keep tequila...LOL J/k
I don't blame you. On days when I'm on the roll line (the incoming call line for the accounting department) I either want to drink all day or jump out of the window. Since I"m only on the third floor, I don't think it would do a significant amount of damage to get me off of the phones, but a girl can dream.
JM, ppl are awful. I had no idea until I started working in retail. WHO KNEW!!! When it comes to their time and money being used in one place, they become like rabid wolves. They would eat their own young to save 70 cents. It's nuts.
you mean urbandictionary isn't a peer reviewed, medical journal?
Ok, bringing this back to the more serious side. I knew what you were saying and I appreciate the compliment
Very astute observation sir
Apparently I must worship a different God because regardless of the persecution I witness I apparently am not supposed to come to the aid of any atheist who is being attacked for their lack of belief. That's what this whole thing has been about. I spoke up generally about how ATM responds to believers because of how some speak to him. Apparently, since ATM is atheist, that is a no-no. This situation escalated because while I was being general with my responses, KT decided to make a direct statement towards me personally and my faith. This occurred three times before I responded directly back to her. Once I responded back to her, then she started speaking about how I am attacking her and making the situation about her and stating it is obvious who I defend (which, by considering her words is satan) because I defended an atheist.
K&T, I see you are still choosing to take direct shots at me in spite of you not wanting others to take shots at you or God. Don't worry, I'm going to use this post as a point of reference to speak to Wilderness..
Wilderness, Ironically, I believe in the same God that is mentioned above. The God that Jesus vindicated here on earth by his works, not by attacking people who don't believe the same way.. I also believe in the Bible that also states in Matthew 7:1-5: Do not judge and criticize and condemn others, so that you may not be judged and criticized and condemned yourselves.
2 For just as you judge and criticize and condemn others, you will be judged and criticized and condemned, and in accordance with the measure you [use to] deal out to others, it will be dealt out again to you.
3 Why do you [a]stare from without at the [b]very small particle that is in your brother’s eye but do not become aware of and consider the beam [c]of timber that is in your own eye?
4 Or how can you say to your brother, Let me get the tiny particle out of your eye, when there is the beam [d]of timber in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first get the beam of timber out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the tiny particle out of your brother’s eye. Then again, This block of verses might not be printed in every Christian bible as evidenced by certain posts. Then again maybe we do not serve the same God because Some people's God allows them to freely pass judgment on others without offering any type of apology or repentance for anyone that may have been offended. The God I serve and believe in does not look favorably on that behavior and I try my hardest to follow it, But I do make it a point to make sure I apologize to anyone who I may have unintentionally offended.
Here I am going to address you K&T.. Yes it is clear who I defend. I defend anyone on HP who consistently gets attacked for their views. It's obvious that you do not participate in all of the forums or you would have seen where I have defended believers against his comments as well. Before you rush to judgment of who I "defend", please make sure you have researched properly..
It is also clear that I am defending and interceding for someone who has gotten stoned (your words). Kinda like when Christ interceded for the woman who was about to be stoned for committing adultery by telling her accusers to let he who is without sin cast the first stone (try looking that one up). I also am interceding for one who has mocked God and ridiculed my belief as well (which by following Christ's example on calvary when he interceded on behalf of all people who mocked him, God, and ultimately killed him.. Now I'm not comparing myself to Christ, but I am stating that I am trying to follow his example.
I don't get offended.. When talking about my earthly father, if you said he doesn't exist, I wouldn't get mad because as of April 20, 2010, he doesn't. He passed away of a stroke. Now, If you tell me he never existed and is a myth, I still wouldn't get mad because all I would have to do is produce my birth certificate (with his name on it), a picture of him (which I look just like him), and also DNA evidence.
Now, if you're referring to our heavenly father, I cannot get offended by an atheist calling him a fairy or a mythological being because I have no objective, unimpeachable proof that would be sufficient enough to convince atheists (or apparently fellow believers, in some cases). Therefore, I cannot be angry or offended when an atheist questions or mocks it. These are my beliefs based on my experiences as well as my understanding of the word.
Now what does bother me at times is when another professed Christian attacks my beliefs then when I respond in kind screams that they are being persecuted and start to demand respect..
I understand that your comments were made in response to Wilderness mentioning my name. The difference between the two is that Wilderness has been very respectful toward me even if he disagrees with me (Which I appreciate Wilderness). You, on the other hand, have done little more than take direct shots questioning my faith and the fact that I speak up for someone who disagrees with me. I'm not sure if you have heard of the Golden Rule or not KT, but it states "treat others the same way you want to be treated". Considering the fact that you continue to take shots at me and others, it must mean that you wish for others to take direct shots at you. So be it. From this point forward, any comment you make about me and my faith in the biblical God (which you claim is not the same as your biblical God) will be returned in kind with a direct reply from me to you. If you do not want to be addressed directly by me, then please leave my name out of your posts (even when replying to anyone else who brings my name up)Are you a natural person or a spiritual person, DM?
What can you say about these set of powerful verses: from 1 Corinthians 2:14-15, Saint Paul guides us that the spiritual person is empowered to judge others using God's words and commands, as he wrote:
"Now the 'natural person,' does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually.
"The 'spiritual person,' however, can judge everything but he is not subject to judgment by anyone, for 'who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?' But we have the mind of Christ."I consider myself to be a spiritual person, Edwin. Why do you ask?
What I can say about these verses is that as it pertains to your entering into a dispute and debate between myself and KT is that your use of these scriptures in this manner shows a semi clear example of scripture being taken out of context. Let's do a little bible study, shall we?
I'm not sure which version of the bible you pulled those scriptures from, but it never hurts to look at other versions (preferably with a strong's concordance and dictionary nearby). Let's look at those same two verses from the amplified bible.
14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
15 But the spiritual man tries all things [he [a]examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].
Now contextually, in these two verses, the bible is speaking of judgment as gaining understanding by questioning, investigation...etc. Basically, in verse 14, the nonspiritual man does not accept the things of the spirit BECAUSE they are spiritual in nature and as such they are deemed foolish by the nonspiritual.
In verse 15, it states the the spiritual man gains understanding of these things because he questions and examines these things and as such gained an understanding and therefore is not to be put on trial and criticized by no one because nobody can properly gain an insight into him..
Now that we have gotten that part out of the way, Let's move over into the verses I referenced in Matthew 7 (still from the same amplified bible, but the context is the same no matter which version you pick up) I will simply stay in verse 1 because all the others after follow suit:
Do not judge and criticize and condemn others, so that you may not be judged and criticized and condemned yourselves.
This verse (along with 2-5) is not speaking of gaining understanding. It is speaking of condemning others and criticizing others.
Now to paraphrase the last three verses in a basic manner, they are stating (to put it bluntly) "sweep your own front porch before you can attempt to sweep around another's especially when you have no understanding of how clean or dirty that porch is or why).
Now that we have had this little bit of bible study, please look back at my whole conversation with KT. KT in no way, shape, nor form was trying to gain any kind of understanding about me nor my actions. She was condemning me for speaking up for an atheist and trying to show how it could be deemed that he is being treated by people who are not supposed to be condemning anyone. She has on several occasions attacked me and even went so far as attacking my faith by stating that I do not believe in God and the Bible because I was speaking up for someone of a different belief structure. By virtue of putting herself in that position, she has subjected herself to being criticized herself (which myself as well as others, both Christian and atheist have done).
I applaud you for wanting to intercede for KT because essentially, she is taking quite a beating (so to speak) for her choice to criticize without attempting to gain understanding; however, in this particular case (especially now considering that you might have taken verses out of context), I feel that unless you are of a similar judgmental mind (as according to Matthew) it may have been slightly misguided. I am not criticizing you for jumping into a conversation because you entered into it by attempting to gain an understanding of me (and were very respectful about it, which I appreciate) before you moved forward. I pray that you continue to push for enlightenment and I also pray God's continued favor upon you
Now that we have gotten through that, and since you mentioned these scriptures, I understand why you asked me that question.. I certainly am a spiritual person. I have (and continue to try) to gain an understanding of the world around me, not only naturally, but spiritually as well. In an effort to do that, not only do I look at the Bible, but I read various other types of books (both spiritual and scientific). As a result, I have gained a far better understanding of myself and the world around me by understanding that not everything is as magical or supernatural as people think they are. I also understand and am of the belief that the more people operate in principles, the less we need miracles. By seeking to understand others first, we allow others to gain a true understanding of us and as such we will be able to coexist a lot better, not only amongst believers, but also between believers and non believers.That makes no sense. The "Spirit of God" has never been shown to exist, hence there are no teachings or revelations. What is meaningless nonsense is that concept. Believers would be lying if they claimed to be capable of knowing them because there's nothing to know.
What's even more nonsensical is the reasoning; "spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated" - that is supposed to mean what, exactly?
No, believers do not try all things, they do not examine, investigate, inquire or question, that is what the non-believer does. You can't properly discern or appraise because they only talk nonsense and gibberish.What this means, ATM, is that for those who believe in things of the spirit they are able to understand and discern things that are spiritual. This is primarily for those who believe in God. Considering that this does not apply to you, it is irrelevant and thus not up to further discussion with me.
Ok, ATM. I disagree with this, but really don't feel like debating with you today so I am going to agree to disagree up front and back away.. Maybe I will book mark this for further discussion later when I have the inclination to debate with you (for whatever good it would do)."What this means, ATM, is that for those who believe in things of the spirit they (claim they) are able to understand and discern things that are spiritual.
Therein lies the problem, doesn't it? The believer makes the claim, but is unable to pass along the understanding or even a decent description of what they have discerned. They can't use the knowledge for anything - it won't produce any material aids to give a better or easier life, it won't improve their emotional status any more than not having it, it can't be used for anything at all.
Whereupon the non-believe simply does not believe it is true. It is nothing but a figment of imagination and without the ability to show that understanding, the believe cannot convince them otherwise.Exactly part of the point I was making. I cannot convince anyone of anything much less an atheist. I can only provide as much of an explanation as I can (or am willing to depending on who I am speaking with) and let people make up their own minds. Regardless of what you think of the information I present, life goes on. My feelings do not bruise like that. If I give you information and you accept it, then great. If you reject it, oh well. I am not going to beat anyone over the head with trying to continue to press my point. This is why, as you notice, I basically stated that I was not going to attempt to press the point. I found a comment that I posted in another forum regarding belief and evidence. I broke it down into three points:
(Note... I am not trying to be condescending or sarcastic with my response so if you take it this way I apologize up front. I am trying to be reasonable but also slightly humorous). It all comes down to belief. I'm going to break it down in three parts
1) First you must believe that a God exists, or at least the possibility. Atheism, by definition, is a lack of belief in a god or gods.... (strike one)
2) You must believe that evidence of God is available.. Since atheists lack a belief in the existence of God, It could also be reasoned that atheists lack a belief in the availability of evidence.... (strike two)
3) You must also believe that whatever evidence that is provided to you is (or could be) sufficient enough to prove the existence of God (any god). So if premise 1 is correct (definition), and premise 2 is logically sound enough to be correct, then it could be reasoned that it doesn't matter what evidence is presented it will not be sufficient enough (strike 3 .. And we're out of options)
So with this in mind... I try to maintain a stance of agree to disagree and keep moving because we all have to make the choices of what we feel works best for our own individual lives. Which is why I have more respect for most atheists than I do some Christians. I am able to have a discussion and debate with most of you without it breaking down to personal attacks.I would agree with those three, with a single exception - that being the evidence necessary, used or provided.
The believer has a very different concept of what constitutes evidence; to the atheist it simply is not evidence of any kind. All of the evidence offered is no more than opinion, a giant spin of the emotional wheel, a rationalization to find a reason to believe but never evidence. As the atheist does not have that reason (s)he will never find the offered reason as evidence of anything.
Only as the atheist finds an emotional need to believe will they begin to accept those reasons as actual evidence, but it is still necessary to have the need to believe before it will happen. People are great at rationalizing whatever they want to be true; the need for there to be a God will provide what ever "evidence" is necessary for belief.
So no, until you find that rare atheist in such emotional turmoil that they need a god in their life you will not convince them that there is one.The mind is amazing and is able to create an illusion to give one peace. We get what we need. Look at all the people in these forums describing their God with different descriptions. It's all about survival. Some need to delude themselves to get through to the next day.
Very true, and probably necessary as a survival trait. Without the ability to rationalize whatever we want we might all find ourselves under such stress as to make life untenable.
So we lie to ourselves, we convince ourselves that truth exists where there is none. It keeps us happy and productive, which is not a bad thing. It's easy to pick on the believer (that is very visible) but we all do it at times, and until it negatively impacts our lives there's nothing wrong with it.There is something wrong with it when someone tries to convince others that they must become deluded as well with the use of extortion. When we make political decisions based on our delusions.
Yep - it can certainly be a problem, particularly when it is not recognized as a belief rather than fact.
I agree with you on this statement as it relates to SOME believers, but not ALL believers. There are some of us that provide experiences and explanations of what reinforces our beliefs rather than present them as absolute truth and unimpeachable fact. The thing about a personal belief is that it is personal and as such only applies to an individual. I live as I feel works best for me. My personal opinions and beliefs as it relates to the bible and God even subject me to attacks from believers because I feel that some people call on God for wayyy more than is necessary. But ultimately, I admit that I could be wrong which is why I don't try to force my beliefs on others.
Hence why I don't take too much time discussing or debating things with atheists. I simply express what I believe and listen to what atheists believe (or don't believe). and move on to the next subject with respect and an agreement to disagreeNope. It is not just some believers that accept rationalization as truth, but ALL.
I fully recognize that you offer your own experiences and explanations as support for your belief, (and I appreciate that as a window into your rationale) but no atheist is going to accept either as anything but your personal willingness to substitute belief for knowledge. It is not evidence of anything outside of Deepes Mind.Exactly. I'm not substituting my belief for absolute knowledge. I even admit that I don't know everything for sure.. But although I do believe some things in the bible, I do not look to it as the only source (or even an unimpeachable source for that matter) of knowledge. There are principles contained there that are very useful for me and my life, but only for MY life.. and I'm ok with that.
I agree with rationalization... Then again, this concept is not exclusive to believers. Everyone rationalizes things in one way or another to try to substitute opinion for knowledge
So I agree wholeheartedly.. anything I present are things that have been reasoned within the Deepes Mind and I do not have any proof that can be used to change your mind because 1) I don't know what it would take to change anyone's mind. 2) I'm not sure I would even be able to present it... 3) I honestly don't care enough to change anyone's mind as it does not affect me personally. I enjoy exchanging ideas here, discussion and debate with all types because everyone has a unique perspective that is very fascinating. But I am not here to change anyone's mind at all. If it happens, cool. If not, cool.. But one thing about me is that I will never threaten any atheist with anything that I have no proof for as it would only make me seem more like an idiot.. I'm working on a hub based on that too"I will never threaten any atheist with anything that I have no proof for as it would only make me seem more like an idiot.. " Doesn't seem to stop a lot of others, though...
I agree. Whether I agree with conclusions drawn or statements made, whether I agree that a line of thinking is reasonable or just poppycock, I still enjoy learning how other people think and, just sometimes, what they think. Occasionally those conclusions or statements become obnoxious, but I'm quite capable of moving on to something or someone else that I can learn from; I don't find much advantage to be gained from the throwing of rotten fruit at the monitor screen in the hopes it will irritate someone.Sad truth. but for those that try they wonder why you guys laugh at them and get offended.. Go figure
I think part of this is because some become too emotionally attached to their beliefs to the point that any disagreement is seen as an attack and taken personally
Yes, let's back that one up a minute. One is unable to "understand and discern things that are spiritual" because things that are spiritual have never been shown to exist, hence there isn't anything to understand or discern. There is simply a belief in a god, which has nothing to do with understanding or discerning. Nada, zilch, nothing. All they have is one measly book, that we can all read.
You know as well as I know there's nothing to debate. You yourself have the same problem with other believers.And I understand that these things have not been shown to exist (outside of how some would describe as a feeling), which is why I stated that my comment mostly applies to those who believe in spirits or are spiritual. Which does not apply to you or some others.
True to an extent, but at the same time, You know (whether you agree with me or not) that my belief are different and I state that my beliefs are based on my understanding of the bible along with some principle ideas.. Oh wait, you said I'm not a Christian anyway
You are doing well in showing how religion alienates and divides people.
The gods people serve are difficult to distinguish from one another as thin air usually looks the same everywhere.
There are many gods and this post has proven it is the one you defend even if it is not spiritual .
Is your name wilderness! I So I will keep talking
you really don't like people pointing out inconsistencies with your statements, do you? There's no need to be defensive. In a forum setting, people can respond to anything and everything - a fact that you well know, because you do the same thing yourself.
No mention there was no prove of existence ,there is plenty ,and witness to spirit forces. People may call them ghost or spirit forces but they have existed way before we were created, there are Good spirits ,and there are the ones that are manslayers, Really our Heavenly Father protects many from there influence on humans. Yet they do poses many ,and they will appear not for the good,
This is the same spirit body our creator has but in a higher domain of heaven, the many bad spirit forces live here on earth with us humans,
You ask me what do God want, what can a baby give a mother and father?
What can you as a father give your Children.?Eye witness stories are not proof.
There are so many reasons from outright lying, to misinterpretation, to mental illness that they are unreliable.
So at least be honest and say that, while you believe, there is no scientific proof that has survived peer review.
It puts everybody on the same page.I am sure some one will tell you they witness this and they have no mental problems. But if that is what you want to believe that is your right.
I have no idea whether there are ghosts or not.
What I do know is there is no evidence that can be scientifically proven. So, if you want to get anywhere in a conversation with a non-believer, then you have to be honest about that.
They are looking for reproducible proof. You have none... because there is none.
Whether you believe the witness is irrelevant. They are not proof by any scientific criteria.There seems to be no prove of many things , yet man is discovering many things in land and in sea. Yet they did not exist to man because he could not see them , until he discovered them. yet when it is time for the the father to reveal himself , to man,that will be a different story.
Good... if he comes is he going to bring proof of ghosts? 'Cause that's what I was talking about.
He is not going to come the way humans would expect, it is what will happen worldwide under his forces.
So that's a no on the proof of ghosts?
People use that term Ghost ,but really it is a spirit creature. If they reveal themselves it as a shadowy figure , they are the fallen angels who became God almighty enemy ,they where thrown here to the earth,that is why we have many bad things to happening on this planet earth.they cause many disasters, many deaths ,and much sickness that ends in death.
Really?
And the proof of this is where?
And don't say the bible... It ain't in there. I've read it quite a few times. Nothing about ghosts and angels... at least not put together in that sequence.
Did spirits tell you this? Do you talk to them?Just as there is no prove of many plants and animals many will not seem them ,yet that does not mean they do not exist. The bible does tell of angels ,and spirit creatures , the same book that tell of your existence ,does that mean you not exist because some one can see you in person?.
I do not have to talk to a spirits ,and they do not talk to me ,just to answer the question , have you ever talked to the latest find in creation ,or has it talked to you.. If it talksMy words are skipping ,does that mean you do not exist just because people do not see you.?
It means that without proof, I wouldn't expect anyone else to believe I existed.
No, it means that purple dragons don't exist because you can't see them.
The bible in no place says anything about ghost being fallen angels. If you can find it, go ahead and throw the verse at me
Even if it did, it's still not proof.
If you cannot scientifically prove it, than your argument is invalid to non-believers. Do you understand that?
You can say it as much as you like, it's not proof. You aren't convincing anyone... And you are giving other Christians a bad name by throwing out claims that you can't back up. Who would want to follow a religion where it's most vocal members are making up fantastic claims with absolutely not one bit of evidence? And being belligerent about it?You claim to be a Christian ! Where did the word come from! It means to be Christ follower. None of us has seen him in the spirit yet you are a Christian.
So if you believe in Jesus you believe in the spirit realm.because Jesus ascended to heaven as as spirit. ,and is in kingdom power.What I believe is irrelevant. It is not proof.
See, that's kind of what I am getting at.
There is absolutely no scientific proof for anything I believe within my religion. If I were to try to prove it scientifically I would be a fool at the least and purposely deceptive at the worst.
I don't believe that Jesus was very tolerant of either fools or liars. So I try not to be either.Her whole series of posts went right over your head, didn't they?
Melissa did not say she does not believe in spirits. She DID say that you can't convince a non-believer there are such things as spirits by merely saying they exist. You seem to think that any claim you make must automatically be considered as true and factual by anyone in earshot; Melissa has very plainly pointed out why that is untrue.
That's ALL she has said - nothing to do with her own personal beliefs.
Has my invisible purple dragon been visiting you, too? Fluffy sure does get around. Geez.
Yes, she has...
And you owe me big for the clean up. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get invisible purple dragon crap out of carpet?Just shove it in a corner. It's invisible, so no one'll see it.
I was wondering where she went off to. Fluffy is fine - and she takes care of pesky neighbors when necessary. You don't happen to have the ingredients for smores, do you?
If I had chocolate I wouldn't be typing... I'd be getting even fatter.
did she? She didn't do any tail damage, did she?
Nah.. My three year old hitched a ride and wanted to keep her, but I told him that She already had a home.
awwww...she can come visit your nugget anytime - you have to feed her, though. She likes to eat invisible unicorns.
an invisible purple fire-breathing dragon with gas is a bad scene, just saying.
look on the bright side - singe hair cuts are a lot cheaper than the traditional kind. I thought it was going to take forever to regrow my eyebrows.
KT must be talking about spiritual warfare Melissa. And proofs of this are in our everyday lives, so true and powerful, yet, only those who believe and who have faith may see them from beyond their eyes and mind for all these only the spirit can perceive and discern from.
See my challenge to all atheists on this link and the previous thread a few minutes back which has been ignored, a proof of God's spirit working to enhance our faith in Jesus, through the miracle of the Eucharist with scientific proofs to the truth of the human blood representing the blood of Jesus on the sacred host, http://www.catholiccompany.com/blog/pop … argentina.Oh, I'm a Christian. I'm just not incapacitated by it.
No holy wars or hellfire or any of that nonsense. No fallen angels or God's armor or smite the non-believer.
I believe what I believe, but I'm not crazy enough to try to convince the world that my religion is based on fact. It's not. There is no fact involved.
That's just honesty to admit. Dishonesty is creating facts out of thin air to try to prove you are right.When Jesus was here on earth he carried out his campaign of his government ,he fed multitudes, he heal the sick ,he raised the dead , why the dead when they would die later. To prove it could be done under heavenly rulership.He died on the stake that was labeled( KING OF THE JEWS ) because he was to be a king not in there time period but in ours. WE have a great future ahead ,under his government .That message is not to hidden but to let all know .rather people believe in spirit persons or not, Humans are recorded in the bible with much history that is proven ,we live it everyday. ? Who named the animals? Who gave us the name man and women? Who told the story of man's existence and future. Who can raise a dead person. Not any human..there is plenty of prove yet people choose other.But these are words to think about. And really it is good news that one day the earth as we see it today will not exist ,A new heavens and earth is about to usher In.
That's nice dear.
It's still not proof.
And since you now seem to be having a conversation all on your own, there is no further need for me. Please continue to talk among yourselves as long as you feel is necessary.
HAGDI will leave you with this thought ,the first judgement given to humans for wrong doing,Genesis 3 :17-19 "says until you return to the ground,for out of it you where taken, for dust you are and dust you will return." Would you say that is prove of a real judgement by someone greater then man,because man can not control life and death. People al over the world die in seconds. This will come to a stop. The bible tells of that time. Would you say there is no prove of death?
Assuming your questions were not rhetoric:
"He died on the stake that was labeled( KING OF THE JEWS ) because he was to be a king not in there time period but in ours." No, it was labeled that as a mockery.
"Who named the animals?" Depends on your country and language, but not God.
"Who gave us the name man and women?" Depends on your country and language, but not God.
"Who told the story of man's existence and future." The people that lived the past told of it. Charlatans have long made predictions of the future, some of which turned out true and some of which didn't.
"Who can raise a dead person." No one. It has never been reliably documented, although many such tales have existed for millenia. Of course, it depends on what "dead" is as well...there are lots of old, old coffins in Europe that have shown fingernail and fist damage on the inside.
Or, come to think of it, did you intend the questions as proof of something?Yes mockery but why ,those use of words when they could have used other words. Becaue it was known that he would be a king.
Why not God ,you can not give the names of humans that did it.
Depends on what country and state because all languages use the same word in their language,
The people that lived the past told it but who told it to them. They where birthed.all men except Adam and Eve.
I mention dead because man does not live long enough know all things here on earth , ,how much will you learn about this planet and every species ? and there are still more to discover, yet as said before , that does not mean they do not exist, the oceans hold many spieces of all kinds farther then man can reach ,does that mean they do not exist because man does not have acces to these creations ? and just as the heavens are farther then we can reach ,that does not mean it is not inhabited .this is just food for thought in answering your question.So you asked the questions and when you got answers you didn't like you make up your own? And that's supposed to be proof of God's existence and work?
I'm sorry, but evidence and proof does not consist of such things. You would never accept such faulty reasoning as true for anything but religion - how can you possible expect anyone else to accept it as proof of your God?
And the world would be a much better place if we had more of the likes of you, Mo and Deepes. Honesty is so refreshing. Not that some of the others aren't good people.
Thanks for the shout out, Rad. A lot of the others are good people (even KT, whom I respect as long as she doesn't make personal statements). You atheists aren't at all bad yourselves. I appreciate the respect you show me with your responses (even if you find me delusional...LOL)
this is what HP is about.. Open discussion with respect for others and their opinions even in a debate
Or is dishonesty denying what is true to suit one's ego, Melissa? Ha ha.
Nice to be back again. It's not proof after all that you are looking for, Melissa, isn't it? Rather, to be praised and acknowledged as you may feel you care less about spirits, gods or demons. I feel sad for you Atheists - but you're not even, supposed to be, an Atheist, Melissa, wow? - whenever you mock God and the truth about God in Jesus by denying the truth in His words despite miraculous events scientifically proven to be true.
But I continue to pray that you be enlightened and I can sense it, little by little you gain knowledge about the truth in Jesus, we believers are happy for this.
Every single day I know, being in this forum refreshes your mind although you may not admit it, there's that inner fear in you that is holding back your true self, while you may want to open your minds to the truth. Alleluia.
Release that power from within you, do not hold it back. Let the Holy Spirit fill your hearts and reign with His love and mercy, while you may empty yourself with evil spirits of pride, hatred, anger, malice, vanity, deceit and conceit, and start to see the essence of love and forgiveness in this life.
Jesus loves you as Jesus loves us all, through Him we were all made so with all other things we see around us, beautiful to our sight, useful to our being, for He came down on earth for all of us and became one with us, while at the same time He will always be with us, yes, if only we believe.
As it is written, He 'did not come for the righteous but for sinners' like you and me, that we may soon open up our hearts and spirit to the truth, to the truth in our being, to the truth of His love for us as He carries all our burden and has forgiven us of our sins. Yes, you may not know it or refuse to believe, but it is true, He carries all our burden that it may be light, that our load may be lighter than what we may actually carry.
Evil makes it heavier, but Jesus makes it all but lighter for us as He starts healing us lost in our confusion, that may we go back to Him, where we truly belong.
In Jesus' name as we may continue to pray, may all of evil seeds and spirit of deceit and malice come out from within us, and be filled with the love of the Holy Spirit, and remain healed in Jesus, this we ask in the mighty name of Jesus, Amen.
Thank you Lord God, Thank you Lord Jesus. Hallelujah, Hallelujah to the Lamb.Not an atheist.
The rest is gibberish so I'm not sure how to respond... except to say that when people post meaningless non-sense diatribes that really have nothing to do with anything said, it looks bad on the whole faith.
So you are essentially driving people away from Christ.
Is that what you were trying to do?Your attention is enough my dear Melissa, yes, in the love of Christ, it is enough. Amen.
I pray that you keep attuned to God's ways, and you'll be alright. And if your love for your children is as much as God loves us all, a fitting investment onto life eternal is what they may need, that they may see the lighted path and see them better guided and protected by the Holy Spirit, through their guardian angels.
While we lost a brother at birth, and I lost one of my twins about two days after birth, I can feel their presence protecting us and helping guide us in this life, and it is in my faith that I believe this to be so, for as long as God allows this, so let it be so.
As long as we abide in Jesus, Jesus abides in us, and our dearly faithfully departed, they become 'like angels in heaven' when they die, under God's care and bidding, and by His will, they may live as resurrected immortal beings, again, if only we believe and have faith in Jesus, for "with God all things are possible," as in Matthew 19:26.
Melissa is a Christian as well, Edwinoel. Although she believes in God, she accepts it as a personal belief of what works best for her (same as myself). As a result, it is easier to give information with the understanding that others will use their own reasoning skills to gain their own understanding of what works best for their lives. Some feel that not following a god is the best thing. But that does not make them evil or followers of satan. This is especially the case for them since atheists do not believe in satan or God. I'm not sure if the rest of the post was meant specifically for her, but if it was, you have no way of knowing that the holy spirit does not already reside within her and that you might actually only be preaching to the choir (then again considering that she called it gibberish maybe not totally). Part of what I'm getting at is that while I applaud your knowledge of the bible and can appreciate your willingness to spread the word as well as pray for others, sometimes quoting the bible in every situation does not always yield the best results. Am i telling you that you shouldn't quote the bible? Not at all. We are called to spread the word. But the issue is that in only spreading the word without giving principle and general basic application ideas actually pushes people away at times because if you're referring your comments to Christians, we believe in the bible already so to preach to some of us is redundant. Based on what I am understanding of atheists (Refer to the title of this forum as well as the OP) They do not believe in God and as such reject the bible. A lot of atheists are former believers and know the bible as well (and, in the case of JM actually have a degree in the subject), thus repeating redundancy. As good as it is to continue to spread the word and to be spiritual minded, we must also be careful for ourselves not to get so spiritually minded that we are no earthly good, otherwise we still (albeit unwittingly) end up doing the work of Satan. Continued peace and blessings to you
We atheists have already respond. It really wasn't a challenge. It can't be proven.
I've been around...just staying out of the religious forums. I'm bed-bound today and bored so I thought I'd come and start an argument for P&G.
Bed bound?? Hope everything is ok. If not hope everything gets better
Just a slightly sprained ankle and a hubby that has the day off. I turned it into a princess day.
How'd you do that missy? (not the nick name for Melissa... the snappy little nick name for every girl.)
Marry a husband that gives me princess days? Good luck I suppose. LOL... No, I went down the slide at the park too fast and didn't stick the landing.
hahahaha... that's funny.... I mean.. aww... Im sorry girl.
you lose points for that, you know.
Don't worry - grace is not my middle name either.
LOL, thank you. Really. It will be fine tomorrow.
@JM... I made the kids laugh so what I lost in style points I made up in entertainment valueI'm a world-class klutz and I somehow managed to fall UP the stairs at work today. I gave my coworkers a real kick. It was fantastic. What I lost in humiliation, I made up in pure style.
Having faith in the fact that there is a God with supreme power and knowledge that is beyond our earthly brain's comprehension makes much more sense than the theory we came from an explosion in outer space that came from matter that could not have existed without a creator. If you atheists have such logical minds then explain to me what created the matter that eventually become the Universe.
you get that we don't actually say that, right? This is called an argument from ignorance or an argument from incredulity. Just because you can't conceive of a natural cause for the universe doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. How much have you researched the topic of evolution? I'm guessing not much.
Start here.
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html
If you want a christian site, start with the arguments that christian apologists steadfastly insist that other believers NOT use in a debate with an atheist because it makes Christians look bad.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-ans … e-dont-useThis is awesome, Julie! I just bookmarked both of these sites. We just "adopted" a fourteen year old girl who has been raised in a Free Will Baptist church...so very fundamental teaching. Michael and I don't live a very fundamental lifestyle (obviously...lol) but she is a very clear thinking young lady and very critical in her thinking as well.
They're about to start the evolution unit in her biology class and she was filled with questions about it because of the things she's been taught in church. I told her that Michael and I think differently about creation than what she's been taught, and to ask us any questions that she wanted to, and I was looking for some resources to be able to field some of the questions I know she'll have. These are both going to be useful, so thank you!
I also told her that what she's going to learn in school is very different from what she's learned so far in church and told her that the absolute best thing she could do was to gain as much knowledge as she could from both sources, and then really examine it on her own until she was comfortable making her own decision about what's right.
Of course, I believe in a Creator as the source of the Universe, but I don't reject evolution out of hand. I don't want her doing that either.Thank You!
I debate in a verbal, organized format as well, and you'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't) to know how many believers I debate that don't even attempt to research evolution before coming to the debate. They just fed whatever they were taught from their favorite apologist (who quote mine biologists and other scientist and don't actually do the research) and don't bother to look any further. There is literally an infinite amount of information out there, and I'm more than happy to do my part to help break a lot of the stereotypical views on the debate between evolution and creationism that are running rampant. While I respect the right of any believer to maintain that a god created the universe, but creationism is not a science that deserves to be taught right alongside biology and evolution in a public school.
Incidentally - have you heard of the Good News Club? They're bad news...and they're infiltrating public schools across the country. They're teaching children how to proselytize to their classmates by telling them that they're dirty, sinful and evil - and that they're unworthy of love or even (in extreme cases) that they're unworthy of living at all unless they accept jesus and get others to do the same.I haven't, but I'll educate myself a bit about the group. You wanna know what my problem with that is? Once you convince a child (teenager or younger) that they are dirty, sinful, evil, and unworthy of love or living, there is not one damn thing that you can do to ever UN-CONVINCE them. Not even by bringing them to Jesus. They will always struggle with that and they will carry absolutely crippling guilt throughout the rest of their life. Unless you come to Jesus (my own humble opinion) with full knowledge and understanding of the depth of His love for you - you will spend the entirety of your life following Him out of a sense of fear - MAYBE gratitude that He doesn't let you evaporate into nothingness - but never love.
These things hurt my heart and frighten me for our children. SIGH. :'(Yes, that would be just part of the irreparable damage Christianity causes in the developing minds of children. And, while you yourself may not use those tactics on your children, billions of others are taught from a young age they are worthless pond scum. Then, they grow up and enter society with that in mind.
How does society function properly when most of the worlds population believe they are dirty, sinful, evil, etc.?
It doesn't.Here, you have absolutely no argument from me, ATM. Oddly enough, the Christians who are the worst offenders seem to completely ignore Jesus's warning against harming children.
In fact, they're awfully selective about what they embrace out of the many words He spoke while on earth.It's also entirely possible to teach the lessons of good that Jesus taught without ever mentioning his name. Without ever "teaching" it in a conversation either. Just live it... or at least live it when the kids are around. (You'd never know me when "mommy" vs. me with no kids around)
Edit: Well YOU might... you have an insight on my life that most here don't.
Exactly.. But the ironic thing is that some are teaching this to children then blaming the child when they grow up this way when the bible states clearly that the power of life and death lies in the tongue and they that enjoy it will eat the fruit thereof.. smh
I don't want to be argumentative, but until recently, I didn't "get that atheists don't say that" because so many atheists that I talked to DO say that. If the conversation has been reformatted recently, I'm glad to know it but like the whole concept of "scientific theory" vs. just plain "theory" it's not exactly well-communicated in the wider public.
the concept of theory in layman's terms vs scientific terms is widely available if you look for it, and if you were a scientist, you would probably understand the difference and begin to recite it verbatim. Just because some people (and I'm not referring directly to you here, but in general) think they mean the same exact thing just points to the fact that they've failed to do any kind of research whatsoever.
With all due respect, to most people (and I've heard it that way at times,) what comes across is, "It's not my fault that you're too stupid or lazy to actually know what you're talking about." To expect everyone to take the time to "do the research" when they think they've already been taught this in public school is a little much. I know you don't think that's what you're saying, and I know that's not what you intend but in many cases that's how it comes across. In fact I still wouldn't know this but in a different forum a very polite gentleman took the time to tell me.
Let me put it this way because I'm not really trying to put the entire onus on the "intellectuals." In a lot of school board fights, you'll get academics who act like the "theory" of evolution is the "law" of evolution because of how scientific theories operate, while laypeople point out that (according to what they've been taught) the very fact that it's still called a "theory" means that it hasn't been proven and therefore there is space for other theories.
And both are right. And both are wrong. And both look at the other side with a sneer and think how stupid the other side is. I mean of course not that everybody does but that on the whole the leaders and the ones that you hear in the media do. And the media tends to focus on the most extreme.
Lol, so where did your God, with his "supreme power and knowledge" (hilarious) get the matter to make our universe?
Why are they always satisfied with God done it, but never ask where God came from?
If some one sent you a gift in the mail ,it was rapped up with a bow and no return address , Yes you would want to know who sent it. That is true ,and when you open the gift it was a bar of solid gold. True you still would want to know who sent it ,would you reject the gift ,because you did not know the sender ? Would you throw it away because you could not prove who sent this gift.would you go in denial and say there is no sender,it just showed up on its own, The gift of life is more then that bar of gold.The sender gave it to you even though you would not acknowledge his gift.
Why do you think none of us ever ask that question? Our kids do it all the time and we certainly don't smack them and yell "Don't do that!"
We tell them that God has just always been and discuss what it says in the Bible and what we know about God. Not on an advanced academic level, but as best they can handle it.
Why do Christians use the Bible as evidence? Duh, could it be because they are Christians? Geez! The answer to that one is so obvious!
It might not be up to me to give you prove of my God ,no more then you will have prove of other creations that you can not see or touch. Yet in due time man discovers new plants new animals ,people 10 to 20 years ago did not know of such findings yet ,they where discovered ,does that make it impossible for there existence ? Now I am asking you a question. Is that impossible ?
Example on the Island of Borneo,reported by the New York Times in World wild life,between 1994-2004 biologist discovered 361 new species of plants and animals. This Island is shared by the Runie ,Indonesia,and Malaysia,
The finds where
260 new insects
50 new plants
30 new fish
7 new frogs
6 new lizards
5 new crabs
2 new snakes
And 1 new toad.
Prior to 1994 these animals did not exist because they where not discovered.
Regardless they existed way before man discovered them. They are real.Yes, they are real. In fact, scientists continue to find new species all the time. They are real. That's the point.
My question is before these spieces where discovered ,did they exist? Because no one had saw them before, would it be logical to say they are not real just because you never saw them ?
You know, that really is a tired argument.
Yes they existed before we found them... So what?
You're going to say that it proves that God exists. It doesn't. It's a weak argument that is so silly that it's no even worth replying to.. which is why people are ignoring it.
If followed to it's logical conclusion, that means that everything is possible we just haven't seen it yet. That's a very childish and ignorant idea. There are things that aren't there because it is impossible for them to be there.
Your argument basically would be like:
There's a giant alien colony filled with pink cows on the dark side of the moon. How do you know there isn't? Have you not seen it? The earthworm didn't exist until we found it.
Arguments like that embarrass Christians...Stop it. I'm tired of looking like an idiot because the most vocal members of my faith say things things that make us all look uneducated.Now she's just going to turn around and accuse you of personally attacking her because you called her argument (not her, but her argument) stupid. She's already done it to all of us.
If she were a little bit more apologetically educated, she could try to turn this into the Transcendental/First Cause argument that pre-suppositional apologists love to use. She could say that Everything that begins to exist has to have a first cause, therefore God. There are problems with these arguments on several levels.
1) The work of particle physicist Victor Stinger demonstrates conclusively that in the realm of physics, not everything that begins to exist has to have a cause in the first place and
2) it's special pleading. We're going to ask what created god, to which she'll reply "nothing, god didn't begin to exist, therefore the argument stands" which is just an assertion. Not a demonstrable fact.
3) Even if you COULD demonstrate that there was a first cause that began the universe, there is no way to make the leap from a cause to the specific god that she believes in. It's equally likely that my invisible purple dragon smacked her tail against something and caused the big bang as it is to say that the judeo-christian god said skadush and created the world.Darn you beat me to it...LOL
Ahh.. then considering the first point, it can be used as evidence of the second point because in your first point you noted that not everything has to have a cause and the bible teaches that in the beginning was God. Basically, the argument then becomes that according to the bible, God was the beginning and that he didn't have a cause that created him because he doesn't have to because he is God (*NOTE* This is not my personal belief because I have no clue nor anything that can be used as proof of the origin.. The above is an answer that I would have given when I was younger... indoctrination, boy I'll tell ya)
And looking at the third point, I thought the big bang was Fluffy passing gas after eating too many unicorns
Uh oh, Melissa. Now will come three things:
First, she is going to accuse you of making it about her rather than the subject. Then she is going to make a snide remark questioning your Christianity. Then she is going to say that even though you claim to be a Christian that obviously you and she worship different Gods because you are defending and siding with atheists(and as such defending the devil). Finally, she is going to start a forum topic about it and try to word it generally, but throw in a veiled reference toward you. I know from experience.- And I shall go about the rest of my day not giving one iota of a... err... care.
@ JM I am intelligent enough to know that I have no clue how we got here, who or what made me if anything (on a universal scale, I know who made me specifically), or why.
My entire argument is very simple and completely logically.
I don't need to know who built my house to live in it.Darn I missed you!! It's great to have you and Mo back active
I agree with the rest of your statement as well. I don't have all of the answers.. I do know what makes sense to me. one of my childhood issues was that I was taught that biblically, the word meant exactly the same thing no matter what the context of the situation was because I was only given the most common definition of a word..Deepes, dontcha know that Melissa and I are sock puppets? That's why you rarely see us in the same forum at the same time.
I Just got a majorly naughty thought that I'm gonna keep silent.. But it is still Good to see the both of you back
LOL
You can't have dirty thoughts about either and/or both of us.
She's an ex-nun and I have had so many kids that I put myself into a chastity belt... not one of those silly cloth ones either. I'm talking bear trap.LOL.. a fallen nun and a born again virgin?? EVEN Dirtier...
HAHAHA!!! I'm having images of Robin Hood: Men in Tights!
I dont know what happened whilst I was gone, but I fear for us all.
Just smile and nod.. stay farrr away from this conversation
You missed nothing important, Beth, I promise. More silly than anything else. Welcome back!
Actually, no it wasn't that important.. It was a bunch of silliness that I started off of a joking comment that Mo made about herself and Melissa
Well after reading replies of my commit and that is just what it is ,I ask a question and was criticized for asking , but I know some one will understand what my question was , and to those who seek to make more out of it then it is , sorry you have no argument with me.
Respectfully we do not share the same faith. Your statement of my commit does not apply to what you believe in. So you do not have to say we are of the same faith ,It is very clear to many in your commits. And I am free to talk just as you are,I will not stop. No more then you will.
Hey Melissa? I hate to say I told you so but....
NanananananaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhIf only everyone else in the world agreed we didn't share the same faith, I'd be happy.
Until then I have to own every wanker who says they are a Christian because it puts us in the same group. Kinda like I have to own the wankers in my family for the same reason... they have the same name.
Since many people put all Christians in the same box, all Christians are often labeled by the actions of our loudest. Unfortunately, that includes all manner of wackos. I am held by the definitions of crazy street preachers, the westboro nuts and the idiots that protest abortion clinics.
*Shrugs* I wish more of us would police our own. I also wish that we didn't need to.
On the rare occasion that a "Christian" tells me that I am not one, it's generally a complement... considering the source.
And to others who are looking for argument ,there is none.
Oh no, there ARE arguments against the claims that you're making. The fact that you're not willing to listen or examine them does not mean that you're correct. It means that your position is closed-minded.
And to others who are looking for an argument on my part there will be none.
*comments
Commit means something else. Something you might be familiar with.
No, it wouldn't be logical, it would be a fallacy.
You can read up on fallacies here so as not to use them all the time...
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
Could you be more clear on what they say and do not say! I did not understand your commit
Actually after knowing that you are atheist there is no way you can agree with it. All these ways are a simple matter of believing. We believe in what we have not seen, otherwise it would not be called believing, agreeing with only what you have seen is fact, not believing. So there is even no way to compare it to mathematics, but if you have a kid, try to throw him up in the air and you will be surprised by that he keeps smiling! because he believes you can't let him fall down. So this is the same way we believe in God and his word. If you want some evidence from it, just read the prophecy written in apocalypses and you will see real things happening today and predicted millenniums ago. Thanks for the great discussion you started by the way.
God is the judge of all ,and he will determine faithfulness ,not based on imperfect humans who continue to make small and big mistakes. I do not look to other humans to grade my faith. Because my life is not based on others people's reasonings ,Jesus set the example ,He is the real christain. Would you say he would like the way we stand up for him and his father ? Would he be pleased?
Exactly. If your god exists, then he is capable if defending himself, and its not your job to tell other people that they don't believe in your god just because they disagree with you. I'm very happy that you're admitted it. I'm assuming that means that you will stop taking jabs at Deepes, Melissa and other Christians who disagree with you because you have now acknowledged that judging is not your responsibility. Thank you for admitting your mistake.
incidentally, read: sarcasm. I just had a near death experience involving an elevator, and I feel snarkyI am truly shamed because I refuse to accept nonsense arguments on the religious section of a writer's site.
Jesus must truly be sad about me not representing his position that we all should all Christians should agree with each other, no matter how silly the argument being presented is.
"And Jesus spoketh: Go forth and spout nonsense in my name on HubPages Religious Forums. Partake thee not in rational discussion and never admit thee are in error. Chastise and attempt to verbal smite those who disagree with thee by telling them that they make baby Jesus cry. Tell them that they do not follow me if they disagree with thee"Roflmao... What's the chapter and verse on that? I don't think its in the version I've been reading, dammit
Welp, I certain;y hope that since you don't look to others to grade your faith, that you will also stop grading the faith of others. Because after all, Would Jesus be pleased at your representing the example he set of not judging the faith of others?
I, for one, feel terrible that i am not following him by living the example he set out in romans 12:10-20 because I disagree with another ChristianI'm not following Corinthians 11:19 either.
It's a tough one for me.
Absolutely not, many Christians will fry along with the rest of us, save a seat by the fire.
- Beth37posted 12 years ago0
Melissa, it's interesting. I feel the way you feel (concerning ppl sharing their faith) about ppl sharing their politics. I am a conservative, but I am supportive of whomever our president is, democrat or republican. I figure if he's the American president, I am not supporting America if I don't support him. I supported Bush when he sent us to Iraq, I support Obama when he pulls us out. I may not agree with every choice they make, but Im not so narrow minded, to think I have to disagree with every single thing a person does just b/c they are of a differing party. I can't stand those ppl who scoff at everything a leader says just b/c he is not a republican/democrat. It's like...can you really not think for yourself? It seems so immature. I wish ppl would vote for whom they supported and shut their mouths when their candidate doesn't win and support whomever the incumbent is. You don't have to agree to be supportive.
Anyway, you wish ppl wouldn't share their faith and I wish ppl wouldn't constantly criticize opposing parties. Believers share their faith (I hope) b/c they believe the Bible with all their hearts and want others to know about salvation, but you can't push your faith on others as God has told us in His word that it is He who does the work and reveals Himself to whom He will. We are just supposed to scatter the seed, but it's God who makes it grow.Yes I must agree Ms Beth We scatter the seed ,what is the seed , the seed is the word , that is what I do. ,and you are right it is God who makes it grow, the no one can make anyone do anything they do not wish to do. But people have always been offended from the beginning of time about the truth when it is spoken, even Jesus died for that. when I plant seed of thoughts from God's word it is for thought , not debate not argument ,even thought people want to make it that way. And there is never nothing to be ashamed of ,when God is discussed ,because he is everything we should be proud of, the only shame their is ,is disrespect of his holy name ,if you are not careful that can be unforgivable .
All we can do is be faithful to what we feel God called us to do and say... remembering that we can save no one. I think the main thing is to remember that the reason we share, is b/c we love God and we love ppl. ATM drives me nuts. He seems hateful and cruel, but I hope there is nothing I wouldn't do to help him if it would show him how much God loves him. To be the hands and feet of Christ, we are called to this too.
To Ms Beth thank you for being a peaceful person and seeing the positive side of all people. There are many types and opinions shared here, and because of that we will step on many toes ,not meaning to but just hoping for the best that people will give a listening ear,and can use the info given, if not that is still their choice and I do respect that. But their is a difference in discussing and not arguing because someone has said somthing you disagree with, if I am out right wrong then I have to own up to that, but if it is correct and the words are from are Heavenly father there is no wrong in him. and for that I do not apologize ,because it is truth.
No, there is no respect whatsoever in evangelism, it is entirely an act of pure selfishness.
More personal insults that are nothing but lies.
Your hateful and cruel religion needs to be irradiated from the planet so we can all live in peace and harmony.
That is why there is so much conflict, hatred and ignorance. Just keep it up so we can always have wars.
It's not at all that I wish people wouldn't share their faith. I share my faith all the time. There's just a morality that comes into play with 1. Sharing it with children before they have the ability to develop critical thinking skills to the level to truly decide whether they agree with what you (universal) are saying. I think that sharing opinions that will effect their entire lives (i.e. their base philosophy) while they are still in the "I just want to have my parent's approval" stage is brainwashing. It's not purposeful and it's not done with malice, but it puts a very restricting conditioning that will not allow them completely free will in choosing their own religious path. Free will is important to me and to God.
2. Sharing religion with those who do not wish to be exposed to it also is a morality issue. It is forcing your (universal) opinion onto those who do not wish to hear it. That is, to me, morally wrong and tantamount to harassment at the least. In one instance in my life, it was very close to assault.
Now, that being said... Neither one of my problems apply to these forums as we are adults and we voluntarily come here. If an atheist gets pissy about hearing gospel in these threads the whole "Forcing it down my throat" doesn't apply. Sorry Atheists. In the same vein, I don't think any of the religious folk have a right to complain about their ideas getting attacked... They did come to discuss them in an open forum.
Now, in reference to my "Please stop, you are embarrassing Christians" I stand by that. People are judging a group by the people within the group. If someone is being ignorant, belligerent and unable to have a rational conversation about their faith without getting buttsore, then they are being beautiful totems for what everyone hates about Christian zealots (or really any zealots). As a member of the group that doesn't break into tongues and roll around on the ground every time someone questions my beliefs, I don't want to be associated with those who do. It's also important to know that if you (universal) are really interested in spreading seed, you might not want to salt the Earth before you do it. If you are trying to bring people to Jesus by being irrational, argumentative, and unwilling to have an honest debate where you CAN admit that you don't know or even *gasp* that you might be wrong, then you are actually driving people away from Christ.
So who's really doing the devils work?
Cause I got to tell you honestly, if faced with a choice between Dawkins and the WBC nuts, I'll follow Dawkins any damn day. He may be an arrogant prick, but at least he's not insane.Oops, sorry. I was skimming thru all the posts Id missed and I thought you'd said that. You must have been talking about kids.
You plus oned that Deepes... just curious, does that mean you wont be teaching your kids biblical truths?
Out of that whole entire post, the one part that you zoned in on to attach my +1 to is about kids?? That's interesting in itself... I'm not offended because it is part of the comment, but I still find it interesting that you would pick that one part out of the whole thing.
To answer your question, no, it doesn't mean that I won't teach my child about the bible. I certainly will teach my son about the Bible. What I will not do, however is teach my child that he is a sinner and that we deserve hell and all of that stuff and that he needs to get right to escape hell, because, quite frankly, I don't want my child's relationship with God to be one of fear. I am teaching my son the importance of doing good things and being good because it is good and it is rewarding in itself. I am exposing him to God's grace and love while he is young as well as the value in following the example that Christ set out during his lifetime. I will also teach him tolerance, understanding, and respect for opposing points of view and that there will be others that will disagree and that he should not take the disagreements personally.
I primarily was +1 ing the rest of it. There are some that Give the collective group a bad name as well as a bad image because not only do some Christians attack atheists and agnostics for not believing, but some of them go after other Christians because they might have a different understanding and belief regarding the bible (even to the point of saying that they do not share the same God even if the principles are in the same Bible).That was the thing that stuck out to me the most out of the entire post. Im a mom... I guess it makes sense.
OH MY GOSH! I finally did the box within a box thing. Ive really had a hard time conquering the whole quote thing...
And I'm a dad.. Not trying to sound callous or rude I'm trying to figure out the point in zoning directly on that one thing out of the whole statement?
It's the main thing I focused on and you plus oned it... can't make it much clearer.
And, all that has ever accomplished is conflict and war, so make sure you keep it up so we never have peace.
I think that what a lot of us are trying to say is that, when you enter a forum of any type and willingly bring up and discuss your beliefs, you shouldn't be surprised if they're questioned, or even criticized. It's not limited to religion. You see the same things in politics, equality, science, etc - yet somehow a lot of christians that I've encountered on hubpages and elsewhere seem shocked that anyone would criticize or question their beliefs at all, and they take offense when people do. At the same time, however, they want to be able to express themselves openly and often stubbornly - but they don't want the opposing side to do the same. This is a double standard that simply doesn't work in open forums like this. To quote a blog post that I recently read:
"The idea that it's bad to criticize or question religion is, in the atheist view, one of the most pernicious pieces of armor that religion has mounted against legitimate criticism.
Again, atheists see religion as just another hypothesis about how the world works and why it is the way it is. We don't see any reason not to ask hard questions about it. In a free society, we all get to ask hard questions about scientific theories, political opinions, public policies. Hell, we ask hard questions about restaurants and dog breeding and reality show contestants. Why should religion be different? In the marketplace of ideas, why should religion get to drive its wares to the market in an armored car? And sell those wares behind a curtain? And insist that people stay politely quiet when the teakettles they bought at the religion booth don't hold water?
For centuries, indeed for millennia, people have only been allowed to see things one way: God's way. (Okay, thousands of ways, and thousands of gods... but you know what I mean.) For centuries, indeed for millennia, religion has been the only game in town. And now that another option is appearing on the table, now that serious questions are being asked about both its usefulness and its plausibility... now you want people to stop arguing and just let each other believe what they believe?" Greta Christina
Also, specifically to you, Beth, because you've asked this question of me and other atheists multiple times:
"Why do you care what other people believe?
Why do Democrats care what Republicans believe? And vice versa? Why do social democrat types care what free market freaks believe, and vice versa? Why do gay rights activists care what anti- gay- rights activists believe, and vice versa?
Atheists care what believers believe, because people act on their beliefs. Beliefs have consequences in the real world. And that includes religious beliefs.
To ask atheists to ignore what believers believe, even though it has an enormous impact on our lives and everybody else's lives, is just an attempt to get us to shut up."
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta … s-why.htmlI gotta be honest JM, it's just something I wouldn't do personally. You have to understand, you all say stuff all the time that I would never do... could never agree with, but I don't want to be disrespectful to you as ppl. Its just not me. I will always defend my faith, 1) b/c I love my God and 2) b/c I ultimately care about all of you. But your personal life decisions... I try to be very careful, lest I offend/hurt.
and you say a lot of things to people that I would never say that are outside of my comfort level. That's to be expected, we're two different people. But the fact that you wouldn't do it doesn't mean that everyone should line up with what you'd do and not participate in these conversations. In fact, the fact that you're here, commenting on a thread that was started by an atheist asking a question of other atheists and believers alike demonstrates that you actually DO do this. You participate in these discussions, just like we do, and you do it because you choose to. How, then, can you criticize us for criticizing your beliefs?
Why do I question why you would want to criticize someone elses beliefs? Cause I don't understand it... the only reasoning I can put behind it is that you want to prove ppl wrong. And then I wonder why a person would be intent on that. I wonder about motives, I can't help it... my brain just works that way. i wonder about the whys, and when I don't have them, I assume my own answers. Sorry if that bothers you.
I think it might be somewhat related to "sowing the seeds"
Sowing the seed would be why I talk about God. Asking the whys is to satisfy my curiosity... sadly, just bringing this up has set my mind to wondering again. I haven't felt satisfied by the answers I have received on this subject so far. Maybe b/c I sort of doubt what Ive heard? I don't know.
Reading JMs account of her pain in wanting to have her marriage recognized, I can imagine that that is one big reason she would want to come here day after day and criticize... it's kind of like an open mic to who you may imagine as your oppressors. I can understand that.Well, from a purely objective stance, trying to convince someone they are wrong about religion is completely equal to trying to convince someone to follow Christ.
By questioning secular reasoning for things like creation, presence of God, etc. You are also attacking another's beliefs.
So, answer your own question... Why would you do that?
That wasn't meant to be pissy, when you answer your own motivations you might have theirs as well.When my faith is questioned, I will always answer the question/defend my beliefs. I have yet to start a thread telling ppl why they are wrong not to follow Christ.
Would you start one on why it is RIGHT to follow Christ?
Cause that's just semantics. Objectively speaking.but you repeatedly go to forums started by atheists that just wanted to start a conversation and didn't call you out specifically - but you don't think others should be able to express their views if they're considered to be criticism of you and your beliefs? I have yet to start (or even see) a forum thread called "Beth, your beliefs are insane, why do you believe them"
Seems like we're getting into semantics now and just kinda debating for the sake of it... I feel like Ive made all my points the best I could. You can receive them or not I spose.
You know I love you Beth, and I'm not trying to attack you personally. I just can see things from both sides of the fence.
Just adding my view of what I see. I am well aware my vision isn't perfect.I admire those who are open minded... I feel like there's a lot to learn out there and nothing will be learned if you can't embrace possibilities. I personally will never be able to consider that God isn't real... so at that point there's no give. However, I don't believe my church, or the way Ive translated the bible is the end all. I think we're all gonna get to Heaven and go... huh! But I am happy to discuss ppls thoughts and ideas with them respectfully, I hope.
That most definitely is NOT being open minded.
- So many before you have tried that already, but failed miserably.
If you want to look at it that way in order to understand it, you can. I don't really have a problem with that. It's more than that, though. Mostly, I just want to converse with others, and express myself and continually learn more about myself, other people and the world around me. If people continually make statements that I disagree with, I'll disagree and explain why. I don't expect everyone to fall in line with the way I think. the world would be rather boring if everyone agreed with me.
Let me try to explain this differently. I grew up in a fundamental, baptist household. My mother was a Sunday school teacher and both of my parents became missionaries for awhile, and carted me to Africa. I went to christian schools. I went to a christian college. I grew up around christianity. It's fascinating to me, even if I don't believe in it anymore - and there is SO much information out there that is blatantly false about the origins of christianity, the bible, jesus, theology, evolution, science, free-thought, etc that I feel like I'm capable of commenting on. I want to continue an open dialog between me and other people so we can share knowledge together. I never want to stop looking for answers and I never want to stop searching for other people's opinions. I want to know what they believe and why because it's interesting to me - probably because of the way I was raised. I came to atheism much later in life, after spending decades in the church. I wanted to go into the ministry. I focused my college career on theology. Those interests and that curiosity didn't automatically disappear when I no longer believed in it. Discussing it comes naturally to me, and I enjoy it. That's why I'm here - not to try to force my non-belief on anyone.
while your brain may focus on motives, mine focuses on finding the truth. If I get curious about something, I sniff it out and search for it - regardless of where the evidence leads me. In the case of religion, it led me to atheism. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or convince anyone to deconvert. I'm here to discuss a lot of different topics with a lot of different people, and to express my opinions openly. I don't have a hidden motivation, but to assume that if someone says something that I disagree with on ANY topic, I'm just going to shut up and take it and not present an opposing point of view seems a bit silly to me - especially when so many believers out there make no bones about calling me a fool, a pig or downright stupid for not believing in the same god that they do - especially when the believers can't even agree with EACH OTHER most of the time, and they spend just as much time (if not more so) criticizing, condemning and name-calling others that share their faith.
I know that Jesus loves you. I know that he has called his followers to love you. If there are ppl treating you hatefully... I would question the sincerity of their faith or at the very least the maturity of them/their leadership.
So... in that case would you call another "Christian" out in public for not being a Christian? Or for being wrong?
Because, one thing I know for certain... as embarrassing as some other Christians are, I can't remove them from my faith. The WBC nutcases are still very much Christians.They may be.. I have no idea. The bible says "they will know we are Christians by our love"...
I would call them out for acting inappropriately towards a non-believer in a heart beat... but Im pretty protective of any one who might feel like an underdog... as I feel God is too.
Does that mean I would judge their heart and say they were not saved? No, that would be foolish, only God can see a heart. JM could be saved right now... her name might have been written in the book of life when she was a child and it may be there to this day... I don't know anyone's future. Who am I? I can't even spell without spell check.but atheists ARE the underdogs, especially in America. We're less than 14% of the population, but we're expected to conform to the will of the religious majority on everything from marriage equality to equal opportunity for political office. Are you out there practicing activism for our rights and trying to get religion out of politics?
I was talking about an Atheist in that situation.
As a member of that increasingly ephemeral "religious majority" I have to question just how "underdog" the atheists are. Yes, I guess you can say that you guys are technically outnumbered but "us" (as if there were some monolithic block of "religious" or "Christian" peoples who stick together) but the law is in many ways becoming increasingly unfriendly to religion in general and Christianity in particular. I mean, just look at this forum. I'm not the only conservative Christian here but I'm pretty sure I'm the only Calvinist. One reason that the Christian Right (what is left of it) reacts so strongly to things is precisely because they feel threatened, the same reason the ACLU is so quick to swoop into situations where one person out of maybe thousands who is not a Christian wants to sue and force everybody else to bend to their will.
see, that's a problem and a contradiction that I see - and I'm not the only one. You can either (and by you, I mean the christian majority) sit there and say "we're the majority, so we're going to do things our way and pass laws that abide by our religion, and if you don't like it, tough" but simultaneously claim that christianity is being threatened and/or persecuted just like Jesus said that it was going to be, and you have to be on guard for those who want to take "rights" away from Christians. Can you tell me what christian rights are being threatened? Can you tell me how/where/when christians are being persecuted in this country?
This may or may not be Chris's point (and I don't want to speak for him or out of turn), But a lot of Christians are threatened because they feel that they are no longer able to talk about God because someone might be offended. For example removing prayer from public schools (personally, I see no problem with prayer in public schools, as long as the focus isn't solely on one particular faith.call for a moment of silence and let each person pray as according to their own beliefs.) Another area is in holidays. It's not PC to say Christmas anymore because it is offensive to other religions. On the other hand, it is offensive for a lot of Christians to not include Christ in Christmas because, as the cliche' goes "Jesus is the reason for the season" (Yes I am aware of some of the other sides and the history of Christmas. I am speaking objectively here).. Me, personally, I don't see what the big deal is.. I celebrate Christmas, someone else doesn't.. I have no problem wishing you well on whichever holiday you choose to follow. It's not that serious... Some Christians do not see it as respecting the rights of other religions, some see it as giving up their own religious rights.
That is not what schools are for, they are teaching people things about the world around us and not in the business of maintaining the churches indoctrination and lies.
I certainly can understand that schools are not for spreading religion as far as teaching (as a lot will be biased toward Christianity). I said i see no problem with a silent (as in to yourself) moment of reflection and prayer before the day is started.
To what purpose? Other than to talk to God?
I'm going to actually say that it could, conceivably, be used for meditation. Nice secular, non-religious meditation.
But likely not. Not for your average 5th grader.Okay, but to what purpose is a mass meditation necessary for kids? Do you think that's what kids will actually do? Meditate?
Have you seen that kid with the long hair tell off his teacher? He's brilliant, and he hits the proverbial nail dead on the head.It's not, and I agree it shouldn't happen...
But you are wrong for thinking that there would be no reason for it except prayer. In that, the theists have a very small point... but still a valid one.
However the possibility that it would be viewed as meditation is exceedingly low. It would be Christian peer-pressure.
You do need to acknowledge valid points though, or no one takes your arguments seriously... which I doubt is a big concern of yours anyway.
In that way, you and Kiss andTales are exactly alike. Just pointing out irony.
And yes, I've seen the video. Good ideas, but he's still a punk. The teacher was such a panty waste though that he won almost by default.Can you provide any valid reasons?
It certainly would be considered something of a religious nature.
Excuse me? I do acknowledge valid points, when they are indeed valid.
Is that some kind of joke?
A punk? Again, is that another joke? This guy has become a national hero, his speech was brilliant. What the heck were you watching?When they say that it doesn't have to be used for prayer, that it could conceivably be used for non-religious purpose they are right. It is highly unlikely, but it is possible. You have to acknowledge the possibility.
I was watching a teenager who was being disrespectful after being asked to leave. I don't particularly care if he's become a national hero. I don't care if his ideas were valid. There is a way to address issues and starting an argument in a classroom is not one of them. I could hardly agree that one minute of useless silence is disruptive to the learning process then cheer over a student having a very disruptive argument in that same classroom.
I applaud his ideas, I take issue with the way he chose to express them. But if you want to consider him a hero, go ahead. I just happen to think a school classroom is for learning, not for airing grievances. The learning process of the other students was interrupted.I acknowledge the possibility, it is the purpose for which no one has provided a valid response.
The "learning process" was the entire point of his speech and it was not being interrupted because there was no learning process taking place.Really? You know that? Awesome. Link me to that fact... other than just his word. Cause what I got was that he didn't think his teacher was doing her job correctly after she sent him to the office for disrupting the class. Was it a class on educational principles?
But hey, if you think that everyone should be able to stand up and speak their personal beliefs during a class designed for something else entirely, then that's your opinion.
Tell me why again you oppose school prayer?
Do you have a problem if children pray or don't pray?
I don't see how any harm can come from a moment of prayer or just thinking about snoopy or whatever kids think about.
I think that's been explained. You may not agree with the explanations, but I'm sure your reading is good enough to understand them.
Indoctrination?
Lets see, class take a moment and think or pray about whatever you like.
Nope, don't see indoctrination.Others do.
And since they are our kids we're talking about, we kinda get a say.Maybe you could tell me where you see indoctrination in what I typed. I will say there is plenty of indoctrination in the public school system but it isn't being done by Christians.
I've typed it several times already. If you haven't understood it yet, then me typing it again will not help.
If you say so. The real answer is there isn't any indoctrination in what I typed, there wouldn't be any indoctrination into Christianity at the school either.
If you say so. Like I said, I feel differently.
Grab the last word if you like it... but essentially this has become nuh-uh, yah-huh and I can have those types of conversations with my four year old if that was what I was looking for.It has become your opinion is right and everyone must bow to it, sorry that I disagree that must make you angry.
That's right, the muslim prayers they are forced to say is indoctrination.
I don't know where that happens but anybody being forced to pray I think is worse than indoctrination.
Come on Rad, you're better than rising to senseless bait. Just ignore him, he'll go away.
Why would I go away, I'm not trying to bait anybody just don't see how a moment of silence is harming anyone. You aren't interested in conversation about it so ignore it.
Because they don't have to be told when to take a moment of silence. If they feel the need to have that moment before they eat or at recess then no one will be the wiser. Who gets to decide how long the moment is? The little muslim boy yells, wait I need a full have hour of complete silence for me to complete my prayer to Allah. If one wants prayer in school pay for a private one.
They are told when to do everything else why not that? A moment is a minute, paying for private school is an option but since I don't have the option of paying school taxes then I say give them the minute! Tell me, who is it going to hurt?
Did you even read the last thing I said to you. You are attempting to decide how much time the child get to pray and when. Kids are capable of making their own time. What if the muslim child says he need 30 minutes of silence? I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to pray in school, I'm saying don't regulate a time for it. What you are doing is making a religious time in a secular public place.
Nobody gets more than a minute, its just that simple. Don't even say pray if it makes you uncomfortable. Just a moment of silence....
You are still trying to dictate the time for a prayer needed. Who decides that, you? What is it you are afraid of, if you don't tell them when to pray they wont do it at all, and they need to be properly indoctrinated?
Have you read anything Ive said? They are told when to do everything, but a moment of silence sends you into hysterics. I said don't even use the word prayer and you are on a tangent about prayer. What are you afraid of. I'll check back later to see if you have an answer.
Yes, you think you should decide when and for how long children pray. What about before snacks, what about before lunch? You must be afraid they won't be indoctrinated if you don't tell them when to do some chants. That's not secular. Do we do that at the office? Okay everyone a moment of silence to pray or not pray, but you only have a minute. The muslim stand up and says he need to only pray at 11 and the boss says no this is your time.
Ridiculous.I didn't say I should decide I am saying what if. Again I never said anything about prayer you did, you may want to start reading.
you never said anything about prayer? Really?
I think we read just fine. You may, however, have a problem with your memory.Not really, that is a question to somebody. It isn't in my scenario, in fact the total omission of the word prayer is included.
I think you've said something about prayer. Instruct your kids to pray in silence at certain time of the day and keep it out of a secular place.
Done, easy.No, I didn't say that. I said give them a moment of silence to think whatever they please.
You still have not provided a purpose for that moment of silence?
They can have their minute when they get home, behind closed doors where it belongs.
I didn't say they should be forced to pray it was an option.
Do you even know the definition of indoctrination?
Of course, you don't. But, others do because the harm comes from the reinforcement of indoctrination, something that schools are not in the business of doing.
Agree about Christmas, as long as Christians are not maintained and supported by public funding or locale. Put up a Xmas tree, lights, etc. but leave the nativity at the church display.
Children in school - you don't see a couple of atheist children, surrounded by 25 Christians praying in that "moment of silence" as indoctrination? How about the whispers afterward (in the lower grades where it will count) of "What did you ask for?", "Did you thank him for your homework?" etc.?
Again, requiring the general public to take specific action to "respect" any religion is out of line. It reminds me of the tale of the large muslim group that blocked the airport concourse with their prayers and were absolutely incensed when the plane took off without them.Not fully clear on your question.. Are you stating that the couple of atheist children are being indoctrinated?
Sure they are. Eventually they join in on the prayer and BAM. Education needs to be secular. All those children can take a moment in privacy if they desire, but setting a time out specially for an announced prayer is indoctrination.
Ok.. Good point. I can concede that if it is announced as being for prayer.. But simply calling for a moment of silence doesn't mean that it has to do with prayer.
Now in the case of atheist children surrounded by Christian Children, Wouldn't that be an irrelevant point if their atheist parent is teaching them to think for themselves and not follow a crowd? From what I am seeing, Indoctrination works several ways whether they are being indoctrinated to believe in God or being indoctrinated to think for themselves.Are you buying into the atheist argument that believing in God is, ipso facto, giving up on thinking for yourself and letting someone else do all your thinking for you?
Your religion does all the thinking for you, that's it's sole purpose.
Not at all, Chris. The atheist argument regarding belief is one that states that children raised in Christian households are programmed to believe in God. Meaning that they were already implanted with the thoughts of others in their heads. Since the atheist feels that the bible is nonsense, some of them also believe that for someone to still believe in that "nonsense" is a sign and a mark of the childhood programming and as such we still do not think for ourselves.
I of course disagree with this because If I were still locked into my programming from childhood, I wouldn't be standing here admitting that I could be wrong in my beliefs. I'd still be denying everything that is being stated here on HP and asserting that it all is the truth.That's what I thought you believe, but when you talk about "indoctrinating belief in God" v. "indoctrinating thinking for yourself" you reinforce their idea, whether you agree with it or not.
Recognizing and understanding a specific position is not necessarily reinforcing it. Case in point how I mentioned what I thought you were referring to regarding Christian rights being taken away. I wasn't reinforcing your position, I was recognizing and showing an understanding (even if it was a guess) based on what I've learned about you thus far.
There are certain developmental stages where it is almost impossible for a child to "think for themselves". The will always model group behavior around them. It is natural. Coincidentally, it is that age that Christians are fighting hardest to have school prayer for. You never hear about the fight for public prayer in high schools... it's always in elementary schools.
Depends on how you look at it.. Prayer for public schools actually applies to all schools. Now I can see what you mean about it being target toward elementary schools because their minds aren't fully developed yet.
But then this also brings up the question of if the children who are taught at home not to pray are really thinking for themselves or simply modeling the behavior they have been taught.
DM said it and I've said it before, indoctrination goes many different ways. This is just me, but I've observed that people who are accused of "not thinking for themselves" because they are believers (and I'm not singling out Christians here) can show just as much intellect and common sense as non-believers, while more than one non-believer seems to be reading every answer off a script when discussing these things.Have a look at Our Father or Hail Marry and imagine telling children to chant them every day. It's classic brainwashing. We believe what we say.
Actually, I think you've just made my point for me. I don't dispute your point at all, I was simply pointing out that if you substitute the words, "I shouldn't pray" for any given prayer, you're reinforcing the same type of behavior.
Prayer is a taught behavior. There is not one child in this world that has ever prayed without any exposure to the practice. Ever.
I do not care what religion my children eventually end up choosing, but I'll be damned if I'm going to be the one making the choice for them. I think it's quite possible to be religious and think for yourself... but not if you've never had the opportunity to actually choose your own faith without interference.
Would you think of telling your child every day that they were going to be a banker when they grew up? Or that they were going to marry a specific woman? Or own a specific car?
I wouldn't. So why would I want to choose what faith (or non) they will follow?I don't know. I'm not trying to be argumentative or practice simple sophistry here, but it seems to me that plenty of people who have "chosen their path" had tons of interference. And I'm not singling anyone out, but sometimes it seems like the choices made were specifically to stick it to the people causing that interference. Not always, probably not even most of the time, but sometimes.
And honestly, why single out prayer as if it were some kind of bad thing? The flip side of your statement would be that people who grow up and, for whatever reason, choose Christianity would then not know how to pray or feel funny doing it because they were never exposed to it as kids. And if you think kids don't absorb the idea that something is bad just because Mommy and Daddy make sure it's never around...I think the reason that any of us began discussing prayer in school at all is because you brought it up.
Actually, I think I brought it up... and lit a big fire doing it too..LOL oops
lol but you DID bring it up, Chris - even if it went in a completely different direction than you intended.
Yeah.. I lit the fire, but he brought the gasoline.
LOL.. dang Chris.. I admitted it already.. you just gonna drive the bus back over me? LOL
Okay. But it's still gone in a different direction than I was going.
I don't provide any interference. I don't stop them from seeking out answers once they are old enough. I don't provide any of that knowledge either. I teach them how to research on their own.
As an aside... it is absolutely impossible to rebel against my viewpoint... Either they choose their own path or they rebel against me by following MY path... which says to choose their own path.
Prayer is not singled out... it is simply one of hundreds of religious activities. My child that did choose Christianity had absolutely no problem praying, as the choice was natural to his personality. He is naturally humble.
That's the benefit.
Had my oldest son been forced into Christianity, he WOULD have struggled with prayer as it is completely foreign to his personality. It wouldn't be lack of exposure either, it would be because he refuses to be a supplicant in ANY situation.
I don't think any religion is bad or good. I think there are bad fits and good fits. The children who have been old enough to seek out those answers are exceedingly tolerant of all faiths, even while they are strong in theirs.So many avenues for conversation...
I believe that religion is about Ultimate Truth. I take it you don't share that opinion?I believe that religion is about Ultimate Truth. I don't, however, have any idea what that Ultimate Truth is. I don't think you do either.
Since I don't know and I'm still learning everyday... how could I ever say that anyone else's version of it is wrong?I don't think it's about my decision as to what Ultimate Truth is. It already exists. I know what will probably happen after I say this but the fact is that before I became a Christian I didn't think humans could figure out ultimate truth, then He presented it to me.
Which is why I say the things I say, even if I don't always express myself well or always be as respectful as I should be, for which I'm sorry.That's cool.
My son thinks that he has found the Ultimate truth in Wicca too. Same with the second son... he's a methodist.
My Ultimate Truth lies in my faith somewhere as well. I'm sure that every time that "click" happens, I've found another piece of it.
I've found it interesting that there are some things that are common to almost ALL religions. The concept of Karma, for example. Every religion I've ever studied has a "If you do bad things, bad things will happen to you" component. Even Atheism. (I know, not a religion) So, if science, nature and every other religion in the world... says it exists. I'm cool with accepting it as a Truth.I personally don't believe in Karma. I think it's wishful thinking. You know, like in Horton hatches the egg.
"It should be, it should be, it should be like that." But should and is are not the same.Karma in it's simplest form breaks down to if you do bad shit, bad shit happens to you.
There's lots of places where that exists. Is it flawless? No. But as a general statement it holds up pretty well.
It encompasses a lot of completely secular ideas... revenge, justice, retaliation, reputation, human psychology and interaction, etc.
It isn't always "The universe will punish you" It's very often "people will punish you".
Same concept... If you do good things, good things will happen to you. The universe might not be the one rewarding you, but IN GENERAL, you will be rewarded.Again that's wishful thinking. Because they should be punished they will be punished. I live by the phrase Bad sh^t happens to good people. I don't like it, but I see it. I've personally known a few nasty narcissistic people who go through life destroying others lives, but they seem to move on to others before any harm comes to them. No Karma comes their way.
Karma is wishful thinking.*shrugs* difference of opinion.
Although being thought of as a narcissist that ruins peoples lives might be considered a negative effect.Only the good die young.
Sh^t happens to good people.LMAO... that's almost spiritual.
Okay, so why do good people die young? Is it that good person who went sky diving or that good person who ate lots of McDonalds?
Stupidity is included in the whole karmic experience.
The guy that robs a bank and goes to jail... Karma. (Justice)
The nice guy who stops to change a tire for a stranded motorist and ends up marrying her? Karma. (Personal interaction)
The guy that molests a little girl and gets shot by her father... Karma(revenge)
The lion who tries to hog the kill and gets chased off from the pack? Karma (societal interactions, violating group norms)
When I said Karma exists in all religions and none, I specifically said... bad shit happens to people who do bad things and vice versa. Nothing really mystical is necessary... But it is a general universal truth.
It goes into a further discussion about coincidences and unintended consequences... as well as ripple-effect type crap as well... but there it is.Yet, there are the guys who rob banks and don't go to jail, the nice guy that stops to help and gets mugged instead, the guy that molests a little girl and then goes on to molest many other little girls.
Is that Karma, too?I guess it depends...
Do you think they are living happy, fulfilled lives?
I have a 7 year old cousin being prepared with chemotherapy for a bone marrow transplant. What did he do to deserve that.
A friend of ours lost there eight year old to brain cancer a few years ago. What do you think she did in her short life to deserve that?
The whole notion of karma does nothing but cause guilt to those ill. I have a friend who swears by it, but it seems she only see's it in others. You see she is perfect and so nothing bad will happen to her. When here daughter came home from a vacation with kidney failure she wouldn't talk about it, but she's the first to tell you why someone else is sick.
It's not foolproof but I think it does work to a degree. True narcissists (of which there really aren't that many) are pretty impervious to the pain they cause others because they literally are only capable of seeing their own pain. And if you ever can impress on them what kind of pain they have caused, they either don't care or wildly overreact in ways that often make things worse. But among people who are not narcissistic personalities, if you do good things, people start looking on you as a good person and are more willing to do good things for you. And vice versa, if you do bad things then people see you as a bad person and are less willing to help you if you need it. And yes, people can be perceived as "good" in some circumstances and "bad" in others.
I've known many people who were not nice but only one would I classify as a true narcissist.
On the flip side, Chris, there are a lot of believers that speak from the same script as well. Look at how many people here answer a question or a comment with scripture without actually breaking the scripture down for someone that might not understand it but say "it's plain english"
and then argue with someone interprets it differently or gets a different message from it.
Yes and I've acknowledged that often. But for so many atheists the default position is that all believers are indoctrinated and incapable of thinking for themselves, and that's what I'm arguing against.
Not for me! I don't think I've ever made a sweeping statement like that..and if I have, I certainly shouldn't have.
Actually, I think the default position for many atheists is to not believe in any god claim without evidence. However, not all atheists are skeptics, and not all atheists are wise in the way of rationality and evidence-seeking.Well, you did make that statement about me in my earliest days.. But i think (or hope) that your position has changed somewhat.
Admittedly it came about due to some stupid comments I might have made regarding atheism based on my limited understanding, but I digressreally? Did I say that everyone who is a christian is because they were originally indoctrinated? Seriously? What was wrong with me?
Incidentally - do you see how that works, Lie Detector? I admitted that i may have made a mistake, and then tried to make amends for it, while also being able to laugh at myself for being so stupid! Not hard! Try it sometime.Well, what you said was more along the lines of the only way someone could possibly believe in something as morally repugnant is the bible would have to be because of indoctrination
seriously? I have no recollection of that - but if I said it, I am sorry for it. That's not exactly what I meant or intended in the broad scope - but I still shouldn't have said it.
Well, I didn't take offense to it.. I just tried harder to separate myself from what you are used to dealing with from Christians.. Which took a lot of work because you kept trying to lump me un.. Unless it was a test.. or you were trying to bug me to see if I would crack.. or like in elementary school when you bugged the one you like secretly..LOL
aaaaaand we're back to the completely baseless and out-of-context assertion that I have a secret crush on you :-) Knew it was only a matter of time.
I have a secret crush on him... Of course I have a secret crush on you too.
Ah, the joys of being Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual AND Transgender.Is a secret crush really secret if you come out and admit it like that?
The key is to deny, deny, deny.
Nah.. I know better.. But I still like it as an inside joke..
I understand that the actual definition of atheist is "someone who does not believe in a deity." I'm just saying that many of the atheists I've talked to and read, at least in these forums (and I probably should have been more clear on that) pretty categorically state that believers can't think for themselves. I wasn't trying to single anyone out. I don't think I've ever read where you make a statement like that.
I can see that... I told my story to another hubber and that's the response I got.. "you are still controlled by your indoctrination"
In defense of JM, that was probably me that made that sweeping statement.
But, let's break it down and have a good look at it.
We know that the definition of indoctrination is to accept any kind of doctrine, uncritically.
In other words, we accept as fact: beliefs, without critically questioning them.
This has permutations throughout all of society. The school system, as broken as it appears, according to Jeff Bliss, is NOT in the business of indoctrination. Whereas, sports teams very well could be in that business, along with any other business where marketing and advertising campaigns to sell a belief are important to their survival.
So yes, the offering of being indoctrinated can be observed in many aspects of society and we are all influenced by it. The important thing to remember here is that indoctrination cannot be successful until one accepts the belief as fact.
Our kids eat it up. They'll believe almost anything. And, the reason is simple, they have not yet developed proper critical thinking skills. That could be attributed somewhat to the school system which should be teaching those skills at younger ages, but the main responsibility falls on the parents to keep them questioning everything they learn as they grow up. Everything.
And, if you're going to introduce your own religion to them, you need to give them just as much elbow room to question it unequivocally as to anything else. Rest assured, they will also get a lot of religious influence outside the family from friends and peers and will come to their own conclusions one way or another. Obviously, if they haven't been told by their parents that their own religion is the one that is true and should be followed and they are armed with the proper critical thinking tools, they will come to reasonable conclusions and avoid indoctrination.
With religion, the indoctrination is to believe in a god and follow his word. That word entails many aspects of how the follower is supposed to live their lives, they need not think for themselves at all. Of course, this is supported by the fact that childhood indoctrination suppresses the mind to develop and it becomes lazy and open to easy influence; astrology, NDE, astral projection, aliens, etc.Question, Looking at the fact that, as you point out often, Christians cannot agree on the bible, One could reason that this means that two different Christians have two different understandings and interpretations of the bible and things related to God.. With this in mind, wouldn't this mean that Christians ARE in fact thinking for themselves within religion? If not, then everyone would be in total agreement about the Bible
No, it only shows a belief system based on interpretations being used, no thought process whatsoever.
Btw, those "two" different Christians who couldn't agree have now blossomed into tens of thousands of Christian denominations, all disagreeing.
Scientists, for example, all agree on the many laws of nature and how things work, they have not broken out into tens of thousands of factions all having different interpretations of reality. Huge difference.But doesn't it take thought to interpret the meaning of something?
Of course, but it is the process of thought that is in question.
The process used by believers is the same system they have learned while growing up, acceptance of doctrines uncritically. This process has widespread effects on everything they do and how it affects our societies develop, or in the case of mankind, our lack of development.
I encourage you, Deepes, to take a critical thinking class and see for yourself the differences.
I agree with many of your points but one I seriously disagree with is your "question everything" thesis. You may not mean it this way but what it sounds like you're propounding is that people question everything on a continuous basis. If you actually read my stuff you know that I don't discourage asking questions, but there comes a point where people do have to accept the answer, even if the answer is, "I don't know." And, as someone who did not grow up in an atmosphere of religious indoctrination, I'm very familiar with the "question authority" mentality and yes, have even applied it to my walk. Some answers I have found and others I haven't, but piecing the whole picture together I am satisfied that I have what I need to make a decision.
Another point I disagree with is the assertion (and you may not be making it, but it comes across that way and others have made it) that "questioning things" is the same as "critical thinking." It's not. Asking questions is most certainly an important component of critical thinking, but if all you do is basically scoff at everything, that in itself can become the antithesis of critical thinking. Now, from things you've written in the past I assume that you actually do have things you believe in, things that you have investigated and satisfied yourself that they are true. So I'm not sure you're making that equivocation, and if you're not then that's great. But many people do and that's wrong.Sorry Chris, but is painfully obvious you operate entirely on belief systems, fully indoctrinated. No questions, please.
No, one does no always scoff at everything, but if that everything that is being offered is based entirely on a belief system, then it will get scoffed, so to speak.I think that many people on my side would disagree with you. I ask a lot of questions. There is absolutely no question about that!
Oh, I see now, you ask a lot of supernatural questions, none of which are based in reality. I would agree with that.
Of course, the questions one actually asks are the ones in which the religion contradicts or violates reality. Responding with the supernatural is not an answer.Um, have you really been paying attention to what I have written or are you just making a straw man argument?
And if scoffing is all you have, no matter what justification you use, how is that really any better than blind belief? Because it IS a blind belief, just a blind belief that the other person is always wrong, no questions asked, none answered, all assumptions taken for granted.
For me it would be a problem because yes, I see it as indoctrination. I try to expose my children to no religion at all... so being surrounded by 28 other kids praying (even silently) would go against my wishes for my children.
And that's reasonable.. I wish you the best of luck with keeping your kids free from exposure to religion.
It's really not that hard. I just keep them away from Evangelicals. Most normal people accept my wishes to not discuss religion around my kids.
I do homeschooling because my state is one of the most backward in the country and feels it's great to teach to an agenda. If they spent less time talking about God and more time teaching maybe the students would actually learn to read at more than a ninth grade level.What state do you live in where they spend time discussing God in school? Here they get in trouble for doing that which is why most of the home-schooling parents here school at home, so they CAN talk about God!
West Virginia.
The state where the Bible is actually taught in literature classes and "intelligent design" is given as much weight as evolution.
Also one of the stupidest states in the nation.West Virginia is a beautiful state, at least the parts I saw driving through it. I thought ID was illegal to be taught as a science?
It's also illegal to fund "JesusFest" (I shit you not) with public funds... but we did it.
Who's going to complain and to whom would they make that complaint?
The ACLU has gotten involved and we'll see what happens with that, but I don't think WV is really one of their priorities.
And WV is beautiful. Our educational system just blows.
You make several good points and I think you summarized my main point pretty succinctly. One other thing that is happening is that Christmas is being excluded by name, but other religious holidays are not. I have no problem with public schools discussing different religious holidays as long as they discuss them all, and don't exclude just the one that is deemed "most offensive." This would be true even if the "most offensive" one were Ramadan.
And no, this isn't happening everywhere, but it is happening.
I'm glad you differentiated between me and the "christian majority." That's an entire conversation of it's own, whether such an animal really exists outside of statistics.
The "Christian rights" that are being threatened are basically rights that should extend to everyone but are being applied to exclude Christians. I'm not one of those who say that removal of prayer from public schools (as a normal part of the school day, the daily morning prayer) is the great start of the downhill slide, but the exclusion of prayer is a threat to rights. Now, I'm not talking about school assemblies or even school-related functions where (depending on the cleverness of the lawyers and the bent of the judge) it might be argued that the school is officially sanctioning a particular religion to the detriment of those not of that religion. I'm talking about the right of kids on their own or in small groups not formed by the school to pray. And again, not in a general atmosphere of restricted activity, but specifically negative sanctions against Christians, when they are not applied evenly to Muslims, Buddhists, or anti-religion groups. Or Wiccans.Chris, children do have the right to pray in school. What's illegal is school mandated, school official or teacher led prayer. No one is telling a child they can't pray. Teachers just can't organize, lead or mandate it. Ironically, it was a Jew (not an atheist) who brought this issue to court because his children were being instructed to pray to Jesus.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_v._Vitale
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abington … v._Schempp
If you want prayer put back into public school officially, how do you decide if its a Muslim prayer, a Jewish prayer or a Christian prayer or a catholic prayer? Is it up to the teacher, and will they discriminate against children that don't want to participate? Would you be okay with your children being taught and instructed in Islamic prayers if its Muslim prayer week? How about pagan week?
Since public schools are run by the government and paid for by taxes, they are bound by US laws that apply to the government. The most important of these is the First Amendment to the Constitution, which prohibits schools from favoring one religion over another, or religion in general over none.At the same time, the free exercise clause guarantees freedom of religion. The need to strike a balance between it and the establishment clause means that students are free to worship, but that the school itself must remain neutral. Thus, for instance, students may pray if they wish, but teachers may not lead a class in prayer.I think we're going off on a tangent here.
In some places, kids who pray by themselves or who congregate to pray in a group not organized by the school ARE told to stop. By the school, because the school is deathly afraid that some group (maybe the ACLU, maybe some other group) will come and sue them, so better to prevent the practice than risk a draining suit. No, this does not happen everywhere, but there are places where it happens. And sometimes it has been the cause of suits by the other side, asserting the rights of the kids to pray in school.
I'm not advocating for a return to "prayer in school." Government makes a poor proselytizer. Frankly, I'm not old enough to have experienced it or remember it.I get what you're saying - and if what you're suggesting is true (and I don't think I've ever heard of it, so some sources may be helpful) I would be up there right alongside Christians advocating for their right to practice their religion, as long as it is not mandated, organized or sponsored by the school itself, and it's not infringing on any other student's rights. If kids are organizing these events, school administrators and/or faculty are not involved, I have no problem with it.
This is an interesting comment because you and I got more acquainted with each other because you felt like I was rebuking you when I was trying to help you deal with a certain hubber here and when someone else said something to you about it you made a statement that could be seen as questioning my faith because you thought I was defending said hubber.
I highly doubt I questioned your faith and Im sorry if you ever thought that. I don't like when I feel like ppl appear to water things down, thinking that how they come across is more important than the msg. they are sharing. I might have felt you were doing that, but I can say I do appreciate that you don't blast ppl with a msg. they may not be ready to receive. One evangelist said it's like walking up to someone who is asleep and shinning a bright flashlight in their eyes.
Fair enough, but at the same time, changing an approach is not the same thing as watering things down. Let me give you a scenario.. Let's say I'm cooking you a healthy meal that is good for you.. i fix it all up nice, it smells delicious, and its even your favorite meal.. once I'm done cooking that meal, I go outside and grab a garbage can lid and use that lid and plate your food on it. Would you eat the food? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you won't eat it because no matter how good it smells and how good it is for you, the presentation is disgusting. Same difference applies to my approach in discussions. No matter how good the message is for someone, if the presentation is less than desirable, then it will be rejected. This isn't changing the message or watering it down. It is presenting it in a manner that is more desirable to the pallet of the person receiving it. The issue is that some people not only serve up the meal on a garbage can lid, they also then try to shove others faces in the food when it is rejected (metaphorically speaking).
Did that make sense?It did, of course I understand that. Im also very big on being real. It is very important to me to be honest with myself and others. Im not saying you aren't... Im saying it's a personality clash. When I feel like someone is playing nice rather than being real, it irritates me somewhat, but then Im probably just an irritating person, so don't pay me any mind.
No, you aren't irritating. Don't think that way. I am very real and genuine with my statements and responses. I try to stay as objective as I can and be as respectful as I can in my responses, but I am still being real. Not don't get me wrong, If I feel it is getting to a point where a line is getting crossed with me or that someone is constantly hitting me then I address it. For example, I addressed a line being crossed toward you. and I also had to address another hubber here that kept hitting at me despite my repeated attempts to clarify my position as well as stick to the subject at hand.
I think you're probably just a very positive person.
I can go with that, But at the same time, for me, HP is a collection of people (including myself) sitting at computers sharing ideas. outside of here, we have little to no impact on each others lives directly. For me, there is no reason to get too upset with someone I cannot see who disagrees with me. If I felt that I couldn't handle something, I wither leave the conversation or i turn my computer off for a while. What others here think of my beliefs are not that big of a deal to me because although I respect all of you (and even consider some of you friends), my interaction is limited only to HP. I am more interested in your opinion of a particular subject than I am in your opinion of my opinion of a subject and as such can't be bothered enough (at times) to be offended by it.
I like your example ,I do understand it ,very useful. And I must agree I would not eat it either , but you must admit there is nothing wrong with the food , because had it been served properly many would eat it.
Just saying that the imperfections of humans interfere with what is clean and good..that does not mean the word of God is not valid.
But you have demonstrated that it IS valid, or why we should consider it valid at all
And I agree with that, But the imperfections and the behaviors of humans acting in God's name ultimately taints the word of God in the eyes of others.. Essentially, how we present ourselves when giving the word is how we present the food to others. The actions of some Christians when giving the word is like serving it up on a garbage can lid, yet we wonder why people refuse to eat it.. If we prepare it and present it properly, it will become more palatable for someone else to taste and see that it is good
Actually, there is something wrong with the food because it then becomes tainted by the bacteria and the germs of the presentation and as such can make people sick. It is the presentation of the food that makes it inedible to some.. Add to that the fact that some people would then try to force feed the food on the trash can lid to those who find it inedible which is why conflict arise
I am talking about before you put it on the trash top ,they would have eaten it ,had you served it properly ,you see I do understand your example, a perfect dish ,how do you serve it , does not have to be accepted , yet at the beginning of preparation there is nothing wrong with it, until you served it wrong. And I will accept that is possible for many imperfect people to do, yet there is nothing wrong with the food. Meaning was valid before you tried to serve it the wrong way.
Right.. next, we also have to look at dietary needs and tastes when getting the food together.. Because there may not be anything wrong with fish (i like fish), but my three year old is severely allergic to seafood. As such, he cannot and will not eat it, so I have to give him something that he can eat. But even if we look at something that we are not allergic to but have an aversion to.. Broccoli may be good for me, but you couldn't get me to eat it even with a gun pressed to my head.
The moral of this story is that we cannot prepare food for others as according to our personal tastes. It must be prepared and presented in a way that will be palatable to those we are serving it to. If we are able to do this, it will at least make it appetizing enough for someone to try it.. We also have to get past the resistance of others to give the food a second (or even 300th) try if they are used to getting the same food in an unappetizing way
It's much worse than that, it is more like walking up to them an hitting their intellect with a sledge hammer.
To DM I do agree ,and understand about a few allergies ,and you are correct ,I myself is lactate person. And as you have said we have to be careful how food is prepared for our loved ones and friends, if prepared with care they can consume, very useful example, and that is a good example when it comes to spiritual things, never would we want our efforts to be in vain, rather preparing a special meal that takes good judgment in preparation , because the point is to feed and nourish the body for good health, Similar is the way with spiritual food , We must be healthy here to ,it is just as vital as real food for true happiness. Many want to share this and yet ,because of how it may be served or maybe people just do not like the menu at all , reflects people's rights. I get it.
No, Jesus doesn't love me and no one wants his followers to share that false love.
That would be anyone who wishes to tell us that Jesus loves us and that he wants his followers to love us.
You think muslims, atheists, jews and hindus are wrong. That's why your here.
It's obvious that you're not listening to anyone if you all your brain can think about is proving people wrong, that isn't even remotely the reason. We are amply providing many of those reasons, yet you don't read a single one even though they're right in front of you.
If you actually do care about us, you'll keep your beliefs behind closed doors where they belong and not out in public. We would really appreciate that.
To address this specifically... I feel that the Westboro church ascribes to the same way of thinking. "we must stand up for what we believe lest others tread on our way of life.'
Heaven knows this kind of mindset can be taken to an ugly extreme. It causes us to disallow others to worship or live their lives in freedom in order that we might not have our rights tread on.but religion is definitively impacting my life, even though I am not a part of it. It's the main reason that my marriage is only recognized in 11 states out of 50. In a recent poll, over 50% of people adamantly state that they would NOT vote for a politician who was an out atheist, even if they agreed with their views and positions on political issues. Religion is infiltrating science classrooms in public schools, and demanding equal attention for a biblical creation story as it is for evolution. You cannot live in this country without being smacked by religion in one form or another - even if you don't believe in that religion. In these examples and many, many more, religion is working its way into policy, laws and politics in a secular, democratic republic that went out of its way to state that it was not founded in ANY way on the Christian religion. To ignore it is to allow others to assume that you agree with it - and I don't.
Seemingly the question " Why do Christians use the Bible as evidence in theological discussion " has been answered to an adequate degree . Everything and anything what has been " chosen" has been discused while the essential part of a matter didn't have chance to be explored.
Regarding the label " Christians" as well as 'theological' relates only to human interest in traditionally inherited ' religion' referring meagerly to God and the Bible as one desides to . Word' theological' relates to mans- made subject study ' about' God; as well as " Christians" wrongly interpreted the original Greek word Χριστιανός ( Christianos) = ANOINTED-ians , derived from CHRISTOS - Christ - Anointed One . For some reason the translators did omitted a full translation of it's original meaning into particular languages.
[ ( Hasitently in limited version I will try to point out - for those who have faith to believe a short explanation from the 'Book' . For those who do acknowledge the ' existence ' of God , or Jesus : this isn't a ' theological' discussion .)]
Luke 4: 18-19, Jesus speaking : ' The Spirit of The Lord is upon Me because He has ANOINTED
Me...( please read on given verses.)
Acts 10: 38, more info ." You know how God ANOINTED Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and curing all who were oppressed by the devil for God was with Him."
Now, this very ' equipment ' of ANOINTING came upon e v e r y believer, ( Acts 1:8) and as t h e y were operating in ANOINTING the same signs of " Christ" has been evident, so that in Antioch " The disciples were called " CHRISTIANOS " ( Acts 11:26) [ By this time everyone who " follow" Jesus and His teaching has been called a disciple). They were not " Christians " probably didn't care for any ' denomination ' or even ' church ' - known and accepted labels made by , ' theologians ' during the process of religious competition .
Actually any of man-made labels do not mean much to God as well to one who operates in FAITH a believer, disciple, follower.... Important is to notice that the identical ANOINTING is operating today among the believers. God never changes so do not His principles.
Mentioning word ' theological' which is theories teaching " about God" vs. teaching " the God".
Those of the children of God rather teach and share and live the God , they are known by the same deeds of ANOINTING everywhere they live.We believe history about George Washington and Mozart and we who live now have never laid eyes on them but we believe they were here. Just like them there is recorded document and photos, and just as God has left document and pictures of His creation even you when you look in the mirror! If God does not exist than we who christians we will have lived a good respectable morale life no harm done. But if He does exist and He is who the bible says He is you my friend are in serious trouble, not because of sin but unbelief! And will eternally lost forever in hell tormented day and night forever! I know you might not understand but there is to much riding on if He is and if He's not. Peace
I believe we all have an invitation to God's person, it is up to us how we answer the invitation, and as one person said it we do not know rather in the end of all matters ,this person could be in front of us in his presence. ,now is always changing to today! And by the way hell is a English word for grave in Hebrew ,no place of torment exist, sad to think people use this to control. It is not a true statement proven. We would not burn our own children we love, And God Almighty is greater then we are, he loves us and would never do a terrible thing like that. ,that is why his name must be vindicated and sanctified ,meaning to clear up or clean up the the wrongly accused statements and believes that he has been labeled .
Why would a loving, forgiving God care if we believed in him or not as long as we are good people? And why would he use extortion using the threat of hell to get our worship? Perhaps the God you believe in in not loving or forgiving. Further more what make you think a soul which is undetectable be affected by fire?
Great questions, there is a scripture that says hell was thrown in the lake of fire. how do you throw he'll in fire if that is used to burn people.?next when you are dead you are not conscious of anything at all. If you where conscious you would not be dead, the word would not need to exist.
Sorry, you lost me on this one? What did you mean?
Then who cares about the afterlife without consciousness. No thought or memories or emotions? No sense of touch.
Seems like we have it better right here.Ecclesiastes 9:5 says the dead is not conscious of anything at all ,neither do they any more wages.
You are correct in the fact we do have it better alive, because we can make good name ,and if we die there is a hope of the resurrection,that means God keeps you in his memory to give you life again.John 5:28 ,All those in the memorial tombs( or graves )will hear his voice and come out. Should we doubt the one who gave a judgment of death, and the one who will end it ,has said it.Just another interpretation of the bible. Sounds like Jehovah Witness. All the truth you guys and gales talk about in the bible, and you can't agree on much.
What does the bible say .it is not what you say I sound like.it it what God almighty sounds like.
I'm going to let you in a little know secret... The OT was written by a few people trying inspire and give their men a sense of entitlement for war. The genealogy of the bible adds up to a 6000 year old earth. Not even close.
Here's another little known secret, this is known and acknowledged by many theologians and historians but they also know that this is only a very small part of the history of the OT. Very, very, very small.
A secret is not the answer of all man's problems , we are standing in the midst of a calamity here on earth , because of what man and others have done to the planet. Now are we still going to discuss who and what instead of where and who has the cure. Because the cure has been paid for. It is the same for a dreadful disease , will we be discussing who has the right to have it and why do they have it , and with urgency We have been given a name, and they have paid a price for all all sickness and death to be done away with. I think I would want to know more about the cure ,How can I access it. To keep me living and my family , what about you?
Some people claim to be "good people". Good by whose standards? Good is a relative term, open to interpretation. Even Jesus asked why would anyone call him good! He said there are none good, except the Father in Heaven. And he said that because he inhabited a human body at the time. If anyone believes that Jesus is the son of God, and he didn't claim to be good, then what chance do we have of being considered "good"?
Wow, that is quite opinionated. I believe in freedom of speech and rights to choose your religious or non religious beliefs. I can say this. When I have questions and need answers the bible has never once failed me to NOT answer it for me and guide me. People have different interpretations of the bible. But, it is clearly written that the light resides in each of us, meaning the Holy Spirit. Whether we choose to let people see the light, or the darkness is where your true faith starts and ends. I choose light. I choose God, and I choose his word as my beliefs. It has never failed me. Can you say the same about what your beliefs are?
To U66 Are you asking me ! Because my post have answered that question. and What I speak is not opinion if you are a bible reader ,then as you have stated it will not fail you here either.
Yes, my lack of believe has never failed me. Does that make us both right? You see we don't get to hear from those who's faith have failed them because, well their dead.
Perhaps it has never failed because you only ask questions of the bible (or God) that you already know the answer to.
Have you ever asked for tomorrows lottery numbers? How to cure cancer? How to produce cold fusion and thus save the world from the effects of burning fossil fuels? Do you check the bible for reasons your car won't start?
No, you ask what is right and wrong - something you already know.To Mr W ,you know most humans have been asking those questions for years, and further longer then we can count , because many do not live long enough to invent the cures and solution to our problem,yet we all know we need help it takes more then we can handle ,after all I am sure if you had the cure you would give it , if you had ll the answers to our problems you would give it, if you had the power to change earth problems you would do it and the same with many others, But there is some one greater then us that has already put a cure for all sickness in motion, he has already took his seat of government.,and he is the one that is looking for those who would want to live here as an inheritance as a citizen to really say and live true paradise here on earth ,that is after the clean up .
Why is it that people will complain about two teenage gay children in a school as forcing acceptance by peer pressure, but completely deny that gathering the whole class up to pray is the exact same thing?
Nope, a teacher and almost every other student is doing something but there is absolutely no pressure on that child to do it.Gay children, that came out of nowhere, distraction maybe? A moment of silence without instruction does not equal being forced to pray!
*sighs* I'm responding to the bait of a sock puppet.
If a teacher says it's time for a moment of silence, then it is instructed.
In addition, there is absolutely no reason for that moment of silence. It accomplishes nothing. It's worthless time spent... unless one is praying... in which case it is time instructed by a teacher to pray. Hence it is spending MY tax dollars on 1. Either not doing a damn thing to educate or 2. Someone to pray. I don't pay for other people to pray.
So, what is to be said when a kid asks "Why are we all sitting here quietly" The ONLY non-religious reason a teacher can give is "We just are" If she says "To give the opportunity to pray" then she has just brought religion into the classroom. She has also just given religious instruction.
I absolutely do not want my children exposed to religion... so therefore school prayer violates my parental rights to instruct my children in religious matters. Thus it hurts ME. And yes, it IS my right to stop this under the US bill of rights which prevents the minority from being injured by the tyrancy of the Majority.
School should remain neutral in religion. Neutrality is not aggression. It is also not hurting ANYONE to not have that moment of silence... whereas it can obviously violating my parental rights
to have it... thus hurting me and my children.
There is a whole host of information on the web about child development and peer pressure...Read some of it. If you educate yourself to what exactly does affect the emotional development of children and at what ages, then we have some common ground to have a conversation on... However, you saying that it doesn't without having any of that knowledge is completely baseless.
You ask what it can hurt... without you having any of that knowledge then we don't even have a place to start. Peer pressure, indoctrination, brainwashing, public pressure, societal norms, bullying, violation of parental rights, etc. Those are all places that it can hurt.Telling children its time for a moment of silence is in no way shape or form an instruction other than to be silent. Maybe it wont serve a purpose to some but it may for others. We have moments of silence all the time for a multitude of reasons and it harms no one. When a child asks "Why are we all sitting here quietly" the answer is "to reflect" not "so you can pray".
Your children are not exposed to religion they are exposed to quiet. Since you brought up gay children what if a parent doesn't want their children exposed to homosexuals, do you care? I think I know the answer to that but they pay for their child's education shouldn't their wishes be considered.
Once again, in my scenario prayer is not mentioned, just a moment of silence to be observed. You keep bringing up religion as if the teacher is demanding prayer, that isn't happening. If a child wants to pray during that time its up to them, if they do I'm sure it is because they have been exposed to it by their parents.
I suspect you are one who would never stand up for the rights of the religious but would break your back to support atheism. Personally I don't care, go out of your way to be offended its the latest fad from those on the left.Of course I would stand up for the rights of religion. I am CURRENTLY standing up for the rights of religion. In this case, it's my religion. It is my right to not have my religion violated. School prayer violates my particular faith.
Or is it okay to violate my faith to enforce yours?
If a parent does not want their child exposed to homosexuals, that is on them. According to your logic, they are completely free to sit quietly and ignore their presence... Or to leave the room they are in.
However, the comparison really isn't valid... unless the school is requiring a minute each day to consider the benefits of homosexuality. Then yes, I'd have a VERY big problem with it.
So, if the moment is to reflect, then absolutely no sign of prayer should be present. No bowed heads, not "prayer hands", no outward display whatsoever of any religious symbolism. Would you back that? Would you back that a child counting rosary beads is violating the "moment of reflection" and could be expelled? Steepled hands, same thing. Whispered amens? Bye. I'll even back that. One minute of "reflection" without any prayer at all. Not one thing that would violate my right to raise my child without state- sponsored exposure to a religion? Would you back that? Why not?
It's not support of atheism. It's not support of a fad. It has nothing to do with politics. This is part of my faith.Again, a moment of silence to think whatever they wish, do you read minds? How do you know what they are thinking, there is no instruction other than to remain silent for one minute. The parent may want their kid to pray during that one moment, but how would you know? If they put their hands together and close their eyes you are harmed how?
I'm not a great Christian but I don't think any faith is going to be harmed by 1 minute of quiet. Many LGBT organizations sue schools for the right to dress certain way that are forbidden by schools, straight kids are exposed to it in the process. The parent of the straight kid has zero say in that matter so the comparison is valid.
No harm will come to anybody for 1 minute of silence unless you are seeking to be harmed.Like what? If lots of schools are doing it, it should be easy to find an example.
I responded (and quoted) your direct assertion. I want to know what you're talking about.
I would assume transgender.
Because transgender is the same as gay.
And no transgender individual is straight.I didn't coin LGBT, that's on the LGBT community.
LGBT...
You do realize that each letter means something different... right?So? I asked, do homosexual men never wear a dress?
And I answer that post elsewhere.
I was responding to your response insinuating that straight and transgender were mutually exclusive. They aren't. You can be none, either, or both.
Transgender doesn't equal gay... Not many people in the "LGBT" community would agree that it does.
Each letter means something different. I don't know anyone who is all four...Its kind of a generic term isn't it? Yes, it is, they call themselves the LGBT community, yes, they do. Your exceptions are noted.
Yes, because the community is comprised of four separate groups. There is some overlap, obviously, but yeah... saying that a lesbian is the same thing as a transgender individual... or that a bi-sexual woman is the same thing as a gay man is silly.
Transgender individuals are just transgender. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with it.
The community is not responsible for your lack of knowledge on the issue.I never said they were, I used the term the same way they do.
In which case he/she is referring to transgendered students asking to wear clothing that is perfectly acceptable for the opposite sex - the gender that they identify with. These are not clothes that are against school rules - they're part of the dress code that applies to the different genders, and it's not being shoved down anyone's throat - it's in an effort to make the transgendered student feel comfortable in their own skin.
Or he/she may be referring to certain gay students asking to wear different clothing to the prom or other formal events. A lesbian may want to wear a suit instead of a dress. Their clothing is perfectly within school guidelines, and they're not asking for special treatment, but because of gender barriers it is considered to be outside the norm. The school isn't requiring all straight boys to wear dresses. It's not requiring all girls to wear tuxedos. It's about individual expression - and there's nothing wrong with it. In this case, the gay student is not asking for "special" rights. They want to conform to the predetermined guidelines of the dress code for the gender that they're more comfortable in relating to.If the dress code is slacks/pants for males and dresses/skirts for females then yes, it is a violation of the dress code.
Oh, then that's sexist. The law is unconstitutional.
I would flip crap if my school required me to wear a dress.It isn't unconstitutional for a school to set a dress code.
It is illegal for them to set a dress code that is discriminatory.
Ayup. Sorry.Illegal where? You said it was unconstitutional, please give proof of this, if you are correct I will gladly say so.
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/clo … s-uniforms
http://jjlp.law.ucdavis.edu/archives/vo … nblatt.pdf
http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cg … ntext=mulr
And bunches more...
School dress codes have been successfully challenged both under gender discrimination laws and under freedom of speech laws.Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District( Which is your first site) Is not absolute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethel_Sch … _v._Fraser
http://jjlp.law.ucdavis.edu/archives/vo … nblatt.pdf (This lead nowhere.)
http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cg … ntext=mulr (Same story.)
I will check these a different way.Yeah, I found them, you do know that each case has exceptions don't you? Obviously not.
LMAO...
I know that every constitutional issue has exceptions.
I know a little bit of stuff about law... but most of all I know LOTS of stuff about how to read it. It's one of those little pieces of paper I have hanging on my wall.
I'll trust that 3.8 grade point average to be a better indicator of my abilities that the opinion of a SP on an internet forum.
But good try at that stab at my supposed ignorance. It lets me know that you figured out you were wrong.Thats nice, but dress codes are not unconstitutional.
An edit, cool. I am not wrong, and I have this strange feeling you are not a lawyer, but maybe you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. Whatever floats your boat your honor.yes, and I can say that the invisible moon fairy turned the moon into cheese last night. That doesn't make my statement true. See how that works?
OOOOOH resorting to personal digs now, are we? THAT'S always mature and admirable in intellectual debates! Where did you pick that lovely tidbit up?Except in those cases that the SCOUS has ruled they are. Right?
Nope... My BA is in English. I also have an ASD in legal research. It's actually a pretty common combination.Sure, but they have not ruled that dress codes are unconstitutional.
I'm happy for you.You know when schools try to enforce dress codes, get taken to court, and are told to stop doing that?
That means that they have been ruled unconstitutional. The court doesn't just say "Stop doing that because we don't like it very much"They also don't say "hey you cant enforce a dress code" because they can!
Um...
When they are told that they can't enforce a dress code, then they are told that they can't enforce a dress code. That's kinda what "Stop doing that" means.
By the way, that was the most ridiculous statement that I've ever given a serious reply to.Really? You think dress codes are unconstitutional 100% of the time>...really? Your legal research is flawed!
Nope. I think the unconstitutional dress codes are unconstitutional 100 percent of the time.
LMAO... you are really stretching to win this one aren't you?
You do know that other people can read back and see what the topic of the dress code debate was... right?
But do try to save face. It seems important to you. I've once again, given up any hope of intelligent debate with you. Go away happy, I decided to take your bait.I'm sure my words are there to be read, you said dress codes are unconstitutional, I said no they are not unconstitutional, you then decided (with your legal research degree) that SOME dress codes are unconstitutional to which I agreed. Some are, but not all. Words mean things.
Because this is fun...
You:If the dress code is slacks/pants for males and dresses/skirts for females then yes, it is a violation of the dress code.
Me: Oh, then that's sexist. The law is unconstitutional.
You:It isn't unconstitutional for a school to set a dress code.
Me: It is illegal for them to set a dress code that is discriminatory.
You: Illegal where? You said it was unconstitutional, please give proof of this, if you are correct I will gladly say so.
Me: Gives links
See how that happened?See how your links didn't prove that? I'm sure you don't but if you go back and check it may come to you.
Nope...damn sure they did. Maybe you should go back and read them.
Or you could keep trying to backpedal into a brick wall... Either way is amusing.
Let's put this simply... When the court says that a schools dress code is wrong, they are doing it because it is unconstitutional. That's the only reason the court says stop doing that. So every single time that a student has taken a school to court over a dress code and won that is because the dress code was unconstitutional.
Get it?You know those exceptions you said you knew all about? They mean something, your spinning isn't working, except maybe to your fan club.
does your name work when it's pointed at you? Or do you just like ridiculing other people just because they disagree with you and have repeatedly proven you wrong?
lol are you accusing me (an atheist) of being in a Christian's fan club? LOL While I like Melissa a lot, and I find her funny, the two of us have also vehemently disagreed on various topics. You have a very strange definition of what makes a fan club. Is it because you don't have one?
here is a definitive example of where you've been proven wrong - and you don't even have the guts to admit it, even when it's pointed out:
Because that was a question that had nothing to do with the scenario later given. But you don't have the guts to admit that do you?
you said that you never said anything about prayer. In reality, however, you actually did - and your own quote demonstrates it.
If you were more specific, and said "i never mentioned prayer in this particular instance, although I brought up up barely one page back" then you might have a leg to stand up. But you said that you NEVER said ANYTHING about PRAYER, when you in fact put the word Prayer or Pray in your previous comment. Twice.
Let me expand even further.
If I was to enter into a conversation that was already in progress about...I don't know...atheists being baby-eating satan worshipers, and one of my first comments was "yeah, all the atheists I know eat babies" and then turn around a few posts later and say "I never said that atheists eat babies" when everyone else can look at what I actually SAID, it would make me look foolish. If I started discussing, however, what types of atheists are prone to eat babies and brought up a straw man argument about how they just eat baby ANIMALS and not humans, I can then point to that second tangent of conversation and say that I never referred to atheists as baby eaters in THAT conversation - but not in the overall scope of the discussion.
I know that's probably not going to make sense to you. It's okay.Hmm, okay for those pedantic types, I said something about prayer that had nothing to do with what I was talking about later.
Happy?yes, I am. Because you said you never mentioned prayer, when you in fact did.
Thanks.LMAO...
And, I have shown that I was ALWAYS talking about discriminatory dress codes, yet you are trying to prove that I said all dress codes. Because you made a mistake in reading and are too proud to say..."Hey, I messed up" Of course discriminatory dress codes have been ruled unconstitutional. You are seriously trying to prove that no dress code has ever been proven unconstitutional, because you can't admit you were wrong about what I wrote.
Good luck with that."Oh, then that's sexist. The law is unconstitutional."
That is what you said, the dress code is not unconstitutional.Next sentences:
You:It isn't unconstitutional for a school to set a dress code.
Me: It is illegal for them to set a dress code that is discriminatory.Then I went on to prove it was illegal (unconstitutional) to have discriminatory dress codes.
Me: It is illegal for them to set a dress code that is discriminatory.
You: Illegal where? You said it was unconstitutional, please give proof of this, if you are correct I will gladly say so.
Still waiting for it...So then why have judges ruled in the favor of students?
Piss and giggles?The courts have ruled that safety is an overriding concern and that not all "discriminatory" dress codes are unconstitutional.
See how that works?
Maybe I missed it, but i don't think she said that at all.
He knows that... he just doesn't think people will read back 2 pages.
ohhh.. we don't know how to click on the numbers 2 pages back.. I get it
and this is the reason that I wrote a hub this week on why it's so hard for people to admit when they're wrong. It's a fascinating subject from a psychological standpoint, at least. It's a shame not many people have read it :-(
What would staying at a Holiday Inn Express have to do with being a lawyer? Just curious
I had a 4.2 in high school (A/P courses) and a 3.78 in college, which averages out to AWESOME, that's what.
High Five for intelligence! WooHoo!My high school GPA was horrendous. Pregnancy will do that though
I ended up going through the ASD program at 20... when I realized that poor was bad. I hated lawyers... so I went into office work... then into the red cross. Started my BA in English in 2005, by then I was doing social work in Early Intervention. Stopped both for a hiatus when my son passed and finished up my BA in 2010.
There's my resume
4.2 eh? Want to tutor my son?sure! What subject? I'm great in history, chemistry, biology and math!
He's struggling in Math. Unfortunately, that's my weakest subject. (I paid a 22 year old engineering student in beer to get me through my 7 required hours)
what kind of math? Algebra? Statistics? Calculus? It occurs to me that I have no idea how old your son is :-)
The oldest... He's 19.
He's struggling with Trig. Statistics I could help him with... everything else is a struggle for me too.it's been a long time since I've spent any time looking at trigonometry, but if there's any way for me to help, I'd be happy to try.
You're doing better than me. I barely got through geometry and I wasn't able to help my oldest with it at all.
Statistics came easily for me... for some reason.
Geometry? I felt like shooting myself. I have no spatial reasoning skills, I also have issues accepting absolutes.
Sometimes. Sometimes straight males wear dresses too. Usually for the same reasons... they are either entertainers or transgender.
Edit: I'm sure I missed a kink there somewhere as well, conceivably.
None of it's true.
I wish someone would invent that sarcasm font dammit.I second that. Sometimes I hate being taken seriously.
Don't we all.. the sarcasm font definitely needs to be invented
I know, right?
I'd also like the condescension font, the flirt font, the "bugger off" font and the "I think you are a total wanker font".can we also invent an emoticon for "that statement is so ridiculous that it doesn't even deserve a reply, but I need to do SOMETHING"?
that one just isn't EXPRESSIVE enough for the level of frustration that I'm talking about.
I don't think HP will allow a middle finger emoticon...LOL
Not good enough.. I'm talking about the animated hand turning the finger up... maybe with a flashing sign under it saying "sit on it and rotate"
Or that magical button that would Italian Slap someone through the internet.
Let's just go all the way with this If they can make an adult toy that works via wi-fi then a smack across the back of the head should be easy.Ok, let's brainstorm how to do it so we all can get rich
I think it would have to involve some sort of USB device. Or robotic arms...
And a trout. There has to be a trout.HMMM.. it has to be a trout?? okay. so would the slap in the back of he head be with a hand or the trout?
Either is technically OK... I guess.
It really is a question of style though.
Not good enough.. I'm talking about the animated hand turning the finger up... maybe with a flashing sign under it saying "sit on it and rotate"
that would be helpful. I somehow don't think that HP would go for it.
I'd love a facepalm emoticon! Can we put it in suggest a feature?
Oh and the emoticon for "just shut up talking to me"
As a graphic designer I like your train of thought. But we need to set up rules about how many fonts can be used in one post. Remember the long winded colour guy.
I agree with the first one... the kid shouldn't have been wearing a shirt that said Jesus.
Saying he can't is violating his civil rights. Who is he hurting by wearing a shirt that says "Jesus"? Is his name that offensive? Are you afraid of it?
If they are showing outward behaviors of praying then they get expelled. Are you okay with that stipulation for that "minute of reflection"?
It's not the same thing, I'm not saying that Christians can't go to school, I'm saying that they can't display state sponsored Christian behaviors. I also disagree with homosexuals having sex in front of my children.
Please link me to an article that says anything about gays demanding to dress differently than everyone else.
Please remember though, that transsexuals aren't generally gay... and unless wearing a dress violates the code for everyone then your argument is invalid.
Now... once again. Exposing my children to prayer violates my religion. How is that OK for you to do? If the school is encouraging ANYONE to violate my religion, then they are violating my civil rights. That's like saying "You don't have to burn a cross right now, but you can if you'd like"
"I'm not a great Christian but I don't think any faith is going to be harmed by 1 minute of quiet."
Mine is. Said that several times.So its ok to be quiet for 1 minute as long as you don't pray overtly?
As long as you can make it so that my child NEVER learns that anyone is praying during that moment. Which is exactly what everyone has been telling you. Private, silent, non-disruptive prayer is fine. If it any any way becomes evident that the purpose of this minute was in any way the administrators or teachers way of shoehorning religion into school, they would be fired. If the word prayer was mentioned, the school is libel and can be sued. If it is shown that my child is in any way exposed to something that violates my religious beliefs during a school sponsored event, then the school board can be held responsible... Are you okay with that?
Now, why exactly do you think a specific time should be set aside for this absolutely private thought process to occur?
Displaying state sponsored Christian behaviors? When was Christianity ever sponsored by the state? I'm 62, and in my memory, I don't ever remember it being state sponsored! As a matter of fact, government has been trying to separate church and state for a long time now.
Schools=Paid for by taxes
Prayer=Religion
Schools+Prayer=Religion paid for by taxes.Okay, I've read it all now folks. We have the winner.
You understand that none of these religious organization pay any taxes right? Corporation, small companies pay high taxes. Religious organization get to keep all the money people give them tax free baby, sponsored by the state.
Exactly, which is why it should not be done.
Here is something you guys can be offended by, I strangely am not.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … z2SAiCr600Christians and Muslims fighting. Nothing new there.
You: Yeah, I found them, you do know that each case has exceptions don't you? Obviously not
Me: I know that every constitutional issue has exceptions.
See how that works?- Beth37posted 12 years ago0
"Sh^t happens to good people."
or...
Mt 5:45
"...He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."
Karma
or...
Gal 6:7
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows."
Truth is biblical. Three-fold Law
The truth is apparently also Wiccan.
The natural laws of causation
The truth apparently also appears in nature.
The Laws of Causation
The truth is also apparently secular.
Pali sankhara & Pali bhava
... and Buddhist.
Every philosophy and religion has it's own version...
To say that it's Biblical is accurate, I guess. To say that it is ONLY biblical is ridiculous. To say it originated in the Bible is also ridiculous.
Psychology, Sociology, Medicine, the legal system, animal behaviorism... hell even the physical laws. It's in all of those too.Ah, but I didn't say only the bible obtains the truth. I said if it is true, it is biblical.
And to say that something is ridiculous is not an actual argument, more of a matter of opinion.Ok... then it is wildly inaccurate. Better?
There are lots of things that are true that aren't in the Bible.I believe truth has a source and cannot be disputed.
I guess absolute truth will be revealed to us (or by a different perspective, not be revealed) when we stand before the source of truth. I believe in absolutes.Good on ya.
Of course if I believed in absolutes, then I couldn't be a Christian. Christianity really isn't a religion that deals in absolutes.So many opinions here, but there can be only one truth.
I fell asleep and now my neck is paying the price.
See you tomorrow, God willing.He's the mother of all Atheists if that counts.
LOL.. That's funny.. But, Beth, have you forgotten that sometimes mother is half of another word?
That's interesting. Because it states in the Bible that we need a Savior, and that Jesus is that Savior. That sounds pretty absolute to me.
Virgins can't have babies (absolute) except Mary (voiding of absolute). People can't walk on water (absolute) except Jesus (voiding of absolute).
And don't even get me started on the absolutes that certain events in Genesis violated.
The entire concept of the Bible is built on special case... The existence of God voids many absolutes... which coincidentally is why many atheists have a problem with it.
If I believed in absolutes uniformly, I would not be able to believe in God. There is also no room for miracles...Sorry Melissa, but religions are indeed built entirely on absolutes, whereas reality is based on relativity.
So what you're saying is that since God, being the Creator of life and matter, has decreed what is absolute and then also will, in order to show His power, contradict (not void) that absolute in special circumstances, we humans are free to render that as there are no absolutes in the Bible?
Exactly Chris, religions are based on absolutes.
I've never said otherwise. But that is not the same as saying there is no room for circumstances. If the absolutes were absolutely that absolute then there would be no way for humans to make it into Heaven. Got it? Absolutely!
Yes, the source of truth is reality and it is being revealed to us every day.
If reality for you is absolutely what this life gives you, ATM, I pray that in your spirit you may see God's truth as many have, after having NDE's and this has changed their lives.
I think you were a little off base on this one. Religion is the first attempt Man made to delve into the psyche. To understand the world around him. To determine what is right. We don't know far enough back with certainty to know if different cultures influenced each other in the development of moral understanding. We can't pinpoint the beginning of many religions with a great deal of certainty as to the dates.
What we do know is that religion predated the formal studies of animal behaviorism, psychology, sociology; it predates development of the legal system; it predates any education on observations made which are presented as natural laws. So, truths discovered by religion were their discoveries first. You can't roll the eye when someone points out the Bible, or any religious text, says the same thing we have learned through other sources. With many concepts and understandings these were the first sources. And the only sources for much longer than any of the other sources have been universally available.Animal behavior, psychology, and sociology existed before we studied them. The cause and effect was there before we named it.
I will give over on law.
Medicine: Half and half. For example: Cholesterol existed before we had a name for it. Eating fatty red meat increased it before it had name. Killing certain living things (bad) to eat them always increased cholesterol (bad)... regardless of whether we knew what caused it or not.
We can pinpoint the beginning of Hinduism relatively. It was around 1500 years before the Birth of Christ when (conservatively) when the first Vedics were composed. It undoubtedly predates Christianity.
Now, I will give that the roots of Hinduism are obscure... but some estimates have it going back to before the Biblical Earth existed. (Over 6k years) but likely 3000 BC is more like it... which is still about 1200 years before Judaism.... conservatively.
But the point wasn't really to say that the Bible didn't influence other schools of thought it was to say that it surely wasn't the only source in some cases, it certainly wasn't the cause- at all- in others.
However, if we really want to get technical, Karma in it's simplest form (cause and effect) logically predates EVERYTHING.Karma predates everything? I suppose we should simply take your word on that?
Whether things existed before they were aptly named isn't the point. The point is, if a religious text touches on a topic, giving a valid explanation (albeit simplified in layman terms) they were thinking on the subject first. Light years before we achieved a level of community that allowed our secular sides to expand on these ideas. A natural law is simply that, but you are talking out of both sides of your mouth on this one. Natural, or not, we have no written evidence of man expounding on them prior to them first being pointed toward by religious texts. Raising an eyebrow at someone pointing that out makes little sense.
And I'm afraid current knowledge cannot be used to definitely point to the beginning of most religions. Archeological evidence obtained so far defines current knowledge. Unless, you are implying that we know it all...there is nothing left to find in order to broaden our understanding of our past.I have to admit I don't understand exactly what your point is.
Karma exists regardless of faith... that's was my point from the beginning. That's why I said I considered it a "Universal" truth. So in that, saying that it existed before it was named isn't inconsistent. Nor is "sneering" at those who claim it to be the sovereignty of their own faith.
I'm not sure, because I wasn't there, but I'm fairly certain humans understood the concept of Karma before they named it. Toddlers understand the concept. Animals understand the concept. I don't think it required religion for an explanation.
So maybe if you could explain to me your point again. Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet, but I'm not sure what you are verbally reprimanding me for?
Was it me point out to Beth that almost every religion and philosophy has some form of the concept included when she claimed it as a Christian truth?
Or are you saying that cause and effect doesn't exist outside of religion? I don't suppose you need to take my word on that. You could always try putting your hand on a stove repeatedly and ask yourself if that burning sensation would be there regardless of your faith.
My point with Karma existing before everything, is everything is here because of a cause. That's not a religious statement. That's a logical conclusion. I suppose I should simply take your word that it isn't?
Edit: I wasn't there while the religions were being formed. I was giving you the current school of thought. If you want to say that Christianity first named the concept of cause and effect, then have at it. By current knowledge, you are likely wrong... but hey have at it. If you want to say that cause and effect is cause by God, then I'd like to officially welcome you to the club. Your "Goddunnit" jacket is in the mail.Beth didn't claim anything as a Biblical truth that excludes anything; by her statement. You decided this was what she meant. Your apparent snap judgment caused an attempt to set her straight when I think she was just stating a small portion of the same thing.
But, karma is a little more than simply cause and effect, by the common understanding of the term. I don't know that everyone believes in karma, as it is usually defined, so attempting to boil it down to something other than it is understood to be and insisting that is the limit of its definition in order to insist it predates EVERYTHING (as you put it) is a convoluted cartwheel of a stretch.
Drink your coffee. Have a nice day.You understand that karma nullifies free will, right? It presumes we are all puppets and God is pulling the strings, but somehow he can't prevent the original mistakes. How is punishing someone in this life for something they have done in a past life that they don't remember and were a completely different person just? It only causes guilt rather than sorrow and is the same as saying to a dying person they didn't have enough faith.
Toddlers don't understand that they are dying because of something bad they did in their life or a past life.
Animals don't understand karma. Large cats feel no guilt at all, that's how they survive. My dog will know when he's done something wrong and may be afraid I'll be angry with him but he has no concept of a previous life.Sorry Melissa, but that is absolutely false, no such thing as Karma has ever been shown to exist. There are no invisible accountants keeping track of every act committed by every person on the planet and then tallied up for judgment, that is ridiculous.
It's nothing but wishful thinking, on par with religions.Mellissa, about 6000 years ago God created man. He created man in His own image. It means free will agent. Man broke the faith and trust in Word of God and descended to the level of reasoning. The same time religions started. Religion is then man’s opinion about everything. All religions started in the human’s heads and it doesn’t matter which one was first, or second. My God is personal, whom I trust and love. The Bible is all about God, fallen man and his restoration as planned.
Oh, and look... a four day old account with no hubs that jumps in and immediately starts arguing in the religious forums.
*yawn*Why do we use the bible as evidence in theological discussion? It's called Faith. There are those who believe in the evolution theory. That in and of itself requires a measure of faith too. None of us were here to see the formation of the world with our own eyes. I was not raised in the church growing up, but based on what I've reflected on through nature, I came to the conclusion that there was a creator. My little 6 year old mind followed what appeared to be logical to me: house, cars, computers, toasters, all had designers or creators..then it would seem obvious to me that we (humans and animal life) did as well. I believe that all things do not have to be seen with the naked eyes to realize that they exist. We don't see the ozone layer with our eyes, but it exist. We don't see wind, but we see the effects of it when things start moving around in a particular direction. I've read the bible. And I cannot for the life of me NOT understand what laws people have against what God said nor cannot see the benefit in following them:
1. Reserve sex for marriage: The benefits, no STDs if everyone stayed faithful to their mate, no emotional scars from infidelity or bearing illegitimate children whose parent is not present in their life or walk out on them. This is also providing that they also follow his guidance on how to maintain a healthy family life. A strong family union will produce very little dysfunction that would eventually become prevalent in the world just like it does today.
2. Don't murder: that's obvious. You didn't give the life, you don't have permission to take it.
3. Don't lie: You wouldn't have to deal with anxiety or trust issues.
4. Don't steal: Same benefits as not lying, everyone would be content with what they have and respect the property of others.
5. Don't give place for anger: This does not mean, don't get angry. We are going to get angry, but even the medical establishments have seen the consequences on our health from being and staying angry. I can go on and on.
Unless you're really wanting to learn about God, nothing anyone says to you is going to sway you over to him. So I say, let Christians believe what they want to and you believe what you want to. Debating about it is pointless, because in your mind your right on where you stand and Christians are right on where you stand. God has given you free will for you to do what you please. So why question those who think differently than you when they have use of that same free will?what does the bible have to do with Faith if you're in a discussion with someone that doesn't accept it as valid, true or reliable?
Additionally, I would say that the laws that you pointed out (which all predate the writing of the 10 commandments for the most part, by several hundred years) are not the laws that the majority of non-religious people have a problem with. We have a problem with the other laws - the laws to stone homosexuals or rape victims. The mandates to commit genocide on native people just because they lived in a land that a god chose to give someone else. The actions that dictate that a god sends two bears to kill 42 children for calling a prophet bald. Those are the issues that we take issue with - not the be a good person, treat other people like you want to be treated, etc.
As to the origin of the universe, the argument that you're using for intelligent design, etc is an argument from ignorance/incredulity and it's a common one. Just because you can't imagine how any of this could happen without a creator does not mean that it couldn't. I think you're making a slight dig on evolution by calling it the "theory" of evolution, but theory means something very different in scientific terms than I think you're using it as. Theory in science is the graduation point. You don't get higher than a theory, and it takes no faith to accept evolution - we have proof of it. We can see it in action. We have thousands and thousands of fossils, we've watched speciation in fruit flies, we've seen evolution happen. That requires no faith at all.
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html
Arguments against the argument from design:
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php? … rom_designThis is for both you and Wilderness. The bible and faith are intertwined with one another. Christians use the bible as evidence in theological discussions because although others may not see it as valid, a Christian's faith is their conviction that the Bible can hold up to anything that can be thrown at it to the contrary. It makes no sense to debate if you are not firm in your position on a specific topic.
while I agree with you in theory, my experience in these forums and elsewhere has been vastly different.
An overwhelming majority of christians that i've encountered have a) never read the bible in its entirety even once and b) have no idea how the bible was formed, canonized or put together. I can't tell you how many times I've pointed out a verse or passage in the bible to have a bible-believing christian tell me "that's not in there" only to leave me (the atheist) pointing out chapter in verse. Then they tell me that i"ve taken out of context, so I post the context. Then they tell me that I'm clearly not grasping the original meaning, so I start discussing Hebrew words, contextual clues and history. They usually have nothing to say at that point. I find it absurd to put that much value in a book when you can't even be bothered to read/study or examine it in-depth, and just go by all the nice, feel-good stories that they learned in church. But that's just me.
I actually kind of resent as an atheist being put in a position where I have to explain theology, history and context/language barriers to a believer in an effort to make a point. It astounds me that so many believers put so much faith, trust and hope in a book that they've barely read. Wouldn't it be of utmost importance to read this book cover to cover every chance you get? Shouldn't bible-believing christians know the bible more than their atheist counterparts? Unfortunately, I've found the reverse to be true.
"atheists aren't atheists because they know too little about religion. Often, it's because they've studied it and have learned too much" David SmalleyI don't disagree with your assessment at all. Yes, there are some that don't crack the book open other than at church and even then, they just listen more than read for themselves.
You shouldn't feel resentful about being an atheist that has to explain theology. There are two things that you have to consider when you are feeling resentful.. 1) You weren't always atheist. You were Missionary (heee hee hee.. Missionary) Baptist. Considering that you were once Christian, it could be expected that you have at least a fundamental knowledge of the Bible.. 2) you have a Degree in the subject. With this consideration, you definitely should have this information. Besides, instead of resenting it, shouldn't it kinda make you at least a little proud and smug that you know more about a subject than the ones that believe in it and as such can defeat any argument.maybe I didn't explain what made me resentful clearly - like I said, I've had a few margaritas and spent all day out in the sun.
What I resent is being put in a position where I have to almost defend the meaning of scripture and interpretation from a christian extrapolation that has no idea what they're talking about, and they're just repeating what they've heard (often incorrectly) from their preacher, parents or school. I've had to actually defend the bible against christians who have blatantly taken some things out of context and made passages mean the OPPOSITE of what they were intended to mean when you examine the original languages. I know that you may jump in here and say "it's all interpretation" but these are not just problems with interpretation. They're spin-doctoring the bible in order to make a point that goes against the consensus of what those passages mean, and they are to be found nowhere in scholarly theology.
Oh no, it's not just you, J. When it gets to the point a believer will simply deny facts and evidence in order to defend their beliefs, the first thought is to ask them to read more than one book, until we find they haven't even read one book.
I find Hebrew words (and Greek) as well as contextual clues fascinating. How come I never get those discussions?
I don't know! How come I only get a small handful of them myself?
Depending on who you are dealing with, The oldest Bible that a lot of people refer to is KJV
I guess because we hadn't found each other yet (so to speak.) I would say we should start a forum about that but I give it three hours before it's completely hijacked.
That's not so much a problem until that which is thrown at the Bible clearly contradicts and cannot be denied, and the conviction turns to dishonesty.
But when the firmness of your position means, literally, less than nothing to the listener? Why speak the words at all if you already know that to be the case?
For instance, I will seldom argue evolution with a believer that declares it to be nonsense. They aren't interested in knowledge, they want (and demand) that everything agree with their faith. Similarly, I am uninterested in faith based "knowledge"; I want everything factual and real. So why give me quotes from a book that I know to be nearly without facts or reality?
I don't think you understood the question. Why would a Christian use the bible as proof in a debate or conversation when they know that their "opponent" already knows the bible is useful only as a poorly written (and mostly false) history of the Jewish people? Keep in mind that people know that with the same fervor that you know differently.
Your example of your past, as a 6 year old child unable to think and reason logically, is how those people see your arguments when you use the bible as a source of truth. It simply is not a valid source of information to them and to use it as such does nothing for your credibility.
You are surely right about debating religion, though; it is pointless if the goal is to change one's beliefs. People simply are NOT going to change until they have already begun the process all by themselves.
Of course, that is not the only reason to debate; a good deal of atheist debates seems to be "Keep your religion out of my life" while the other side says "But I'm not asking you to change - I just want to teach your children about God" or whatever the perceived current persecution is.No, it does not require any faith at all, it requires an understanding, hence it is not believed. Religions deal in beliefs, science deals in understanding. Huge difference.
Hence, we can never believe anything written in the Bible, none of us were there.
Yes, that would probably be what a 6 year old might believe. However, we've grown up now, and no longer hold those childish beliefs.
Like leprechauns riding unicorns in the Kentucky Derby. Its true, I didn't see them.
In other words, there are some things that cannot be seen with the human eye because they're so small, like the molecules in the ozone and the atmosphere. Yet, these things are very well understood because they really do exist.
I have no problem with that, but only if Christians promise to keep their religion behind closed doors where it belongs and not out in public. As well, they must promise to stop evangelizing Christianity.
Can you make that happen? If so, we got a deal.
You just answered your own question.The point is, what I choose to believe is what I choose to believe. I never ask you to believe what I do, and if Christians have and you don't, you can simply tell them the same thing. I believe in the bible because I have seen the benefits of living it, and no I had not always lived it. But I see wisdom in what you find flaw in. Science is not God and science does not have all the answers to life. If so, you would have people never dying or getting sick because science would have the means and know how to eradicate ALL sickness, disease and death. It doesn't. There are children over in 3rd world countries dying of starvation. Why hasn't science developed anything to help them with that? And speaking of food, genetically modified food developed by scientist has no more nutritional value than natural foods, in fact it's worst. We have earthquake proof buildings science has yet found a way to stop earthquakes or tornadoes from happening. So in my book, science is flawed and does not have all the answers. Science is governed by very bright, intelligent but limited men and women. They can't stop themselves from dying, but I'm suppose to follow what they say like it's the end all be all? No man knows it all or has it all because man was made that way. Science has made strides, don't get me wrong, but it's not the answer to everything. As far as what you said about Christians keeping their faith in there homes, you do know America has freedom of religion right? That means people are free to practice whatever faith they choose and they can do so openly. I may not agree with atheist views, but I would never say anything like that because I know the laws of the land were not made by me. If your understanding is right for you, then my understanding is right for me. I'm not writing you to get you to see things my way. You asked a question and I'm answering as well as other Christians. No matter what our answer is, you won't agree because you don't see the point in doing so and that's cool. You have your reasons. It takes a mature person to accept that others don't have to believe or see things the way he does. You want Christians to stop evangelizing, yet your write a post in which you're questioning Christians and wanting them to respond to you? Wouldn't their response be a form of preaching? Don't seem like you want too much avoidance from them.
Ah, therein lies the problem.
So, what exactly would you have to lose if religion was kept behind closed doors and not out in public? What is that an issue? Why must it be made public? Isn't religion a personal and private thingy?
The cannot be ignored, they come knocking on my door.sure, but that also means that you can't make laws based solely on your religious principles and just expect everyone who doesn't share your religion to go along with you.
This means, for just a few examples, legalizing gay marriage nation wide, stopping the protests against abortion and the freedom of choice, keeping prayer out of public schools, and allowing atheists to run for political office without vehement criticism. Several states still have blue laws on the book that prevent atheists from running for political office. over 50% of people this YEAR said that they wouldn't vote for an atheist - even if they agree with their political platform and ideals. It means recognizing that a freedom of religion also includes a freedom from it, and that believers cannot push their versions of morality and law onto others that believe differently. If you're not good with that, then your personal religious belief IS causing harm/discrimination/inequality to other people, and in that avenue it is causing real, discernible harm.
What I don't understand is how a lot of christians try to have it both ways. They say that they have the majority, and can therefore do whatever they want - as long as they're getting their way. If things go differently, however, they claim persecution and want to say that their religious freedoms are being infringed upon. You can not have a majority and claim persecution simultaneously. Pick one. They also don't seem to realize that disagreement, criticism and dialog does not equate to persecution, or a trampling of their religious right to believe whatever they want. A perfect example is Chic-Fil-A. Christians came out by the hundreds to support chick fil a's right to discriminate against people and give money to groups that support sexual-reorientation. I agree that the CEO has every right to do whatever he wants with his money. But when homosexuals and secularists and atheist came out in protest of Chick-fil-a, Christians claimed that we were trampling their freedom of religion - just because we were protesting and refusing to give our money to that business - all while groups like One Million Moms protest business all the time. You can't have your cake and eat it too, while expecting everyone else to just shut up and get in line.
*disclaimer* when I say "you" I am not referring directly to the poster, per-se. I'm using a general "you" that encompasses a lot of the double-standards and hypocrisy I see a lot in the mainstream church.You actually raise an interesting point in your edited post. Sure, science has not found a way to feed all of the starving, dying children worldwide - but what has god done to prevent it, if he exists? The christian version of god is all powerful, all knowing and perfectly merciful while simultaneously perfectly just (two contradictory terms and ideas). Yet he has no problem with children suffering and dying by the millions - and you're blaming science that is run by human beings for their suffering?
It's not what he has done to prevent it. It's what he will do to end it. Mankind challenged God Sovereignty when they disobeyed him and felt they did not need his guidance or direction in his life and that we were capable of determining ALL that is right and wrong for ourselves. True enough, he gave us free will and freedom in certain areas of our lives, but not all. So where did this wanting us to rule ourselves get us? Do we have peace and love in the world? No we have wars and threats of wars. Our world in totality is full of chaos because everyone wants to do what they want, regardless of the effects it has on others. People feel it's cool to steal and swindle others to get ahead and not think about the people they're taking from. People feel it's okay to kill, rape or abuse others because it's what they want to do. God does not cause the suffering that you speak of that children and people go through, in most instances WE cause that on ourselves by NOT listening to God. If that man had love and respect in his heart he wouldn't have raped that woman. If that woman had love and respect in her heart she wouldn't have abandoned her children. If people have love and respect they would want to steal from others to get ahead. God doesn't cause the suffering, he allows it to happen to prove a point. And why does he allow it to happen? Because he knows he has the means to heal it to those who were victim to it. When you have children dying of starvation while people are living in million dollar mansions, that's not God's doing, that's man lack of love for each other to care for themselves and disregard those that are suffering. God has been showing us that we don't have the means to rule ourselves and we don't or else we would be much better of than we are. Instead we're getting worse. Love is an unselfish act. It's the ability to put the interest of others before your own. If people loved and respected each other, we wouldn't have any crime, we wouldn't have broken families, we would have such a tremendous gap between the rich and poor, there would be no wars. The bible shows us how to love God's way and you do have a number of christians living this way. I'm trying to figure out how this is such a bad thing? But when we want to make the rewrite the rules on what love is and how we want to live, we have what we have today in the world: selfishness, greed, chaos, and hate. You don't have to believe in God to see that something is not working. Suffering is not caused by God, it's caused by us. And since we won't listen to him he will allow us to deal with the consequences. There are those who don't deserve to suffer and for them, God had promise to heal that and change that around for them. There are many today who went through extremely tragic events and have found healing in their relationship with God now. The events in the bible showing how God has done this in other people lives give those who believe in him faith that he will do so again on a worldwide scale. That is his promise. That's what they believe. And if that's what they believe, let them. If you feel it's all fantasy, you have the right to believe that. Some people believe you shouldn't wear white after labor day. I don't. But I don't develop a post questioning why they believe that. It's their life, let them live it how they see fit. If you're concern about them pressing their views on you, you can shut that down with a simple "no thank you" and keep it moving.
The issue with this statement is that atheists have consistently stated no thank you to believers, but when they do, most believers either try to force feed them the word and beat them over the head with the bible, resort to name calling and other personal attacks, then finally threaten them with hell. This doesn't just apply to atheists. There are some Christians that attack other Christians who disagree with them in the same manner. I have been called a heretic by fellow Christians. One Christian here on HP even told me that I served a totally different God even though I believe in the bible.
The rest of your post was profound in different ways (not all of them good) and I applaud you if you aren't the type to attack others who believe differentlyIt starts well before that. There are some 2 billion or so Christians on the planet, it is probably unknown as to how many of them evangelize. But, surely they will all knock on my door so that each and every one of them hear right from the horses mouth "No thank you" themselves.
It's like the lineup on Red Square to see Lenin, it goes well off into the distance beyond sight and seems never ending. Yet, each one will make sure they get a glimpse of "Dead Fred"And you are correct Mr DM , in part. The problem is everyone that comes on this forum have some thing to say many will not agree ,with what everybody say , because everybody worships different ,and everybody has had good experiences and bad experiences in religion.,yet we make this forum what it is, and I believe that you can not make anybody except what they do not want to accept even your opinions and commits,, Example you look at Tv, what do you have in your hand ,the power to turn the Chanel, if you do not like the program, the power to disagree here also, many people say things here but none have force me to believe any different, and it is the same in the other way.what it is ,is that you do not think people have the right to speak different of your believe and now you feel it is forced ,forced is when you are cornerd up and helpless and you feel threaten, why would you feel threaten by God's word if you are a Christian ? and yes I did say we worship a different God ,I am really sure of that!
how are you in a position to judge another self-professed Christian just because they disagree with you on certain points? Isn't that the height of arrogance to assume that your position is automatically correct, and anyone that disagrees with you is automatically wrong? I don't think that's taught in the bible - to be arrogant and self-righteous and judge and condemn other people - let alone other believers, thinking that you're right and everyone else, by default, is wrong.
Additionally, you may want to change the program that you're using. You're making less and less sense in your posts - and it's COMMENTS, not COMMITS. You continually use the wrong word.It's ok, JM. She spoke up because she actually thought I was referring to her.. I guess the saying is true.. A hit person will holler. She is still wanting to attack me.. Perhaps the god she serves allows her to judge others.. I am over it at this point.. She is still (mostly) within HP terms and has the right to her opinion.. I will continue to pray for her and hope that if we do serve the same God that He overlooks some of this.
To Mr DM ,that is exactly what I am trying to say ,You just said I am attacking you ,explain how.I just maid a commit on the commit you made ,were you attacking when you made your commit ? I do not believe so, I made a commit on the same subject and now you say I am attacking you.Why ?
This part is what was directly personal toward me because once again, you are questioning whether or not I truly am a Christian and stating that even though you are a Christian and I am a Christian that we serve a different God...
Another reason this is an attack is because after our last exchange, I stated that it was clear that you and I will not agree and that we should no longer address each other directly, yet you came back and did so.. That is pushing toward harassment.. The rest of your comment was perfectly fine. It was this last part that was aimed directly at me what made it personal attack..
I am now shaking the dust from my feet and moving on from this conversation. If you choose to continue to come at me, then it will only prove that you are seeking conflict which goes against the bible that you claim to believe in as the word of God.. That will, of course be on you to move outside of God's will. I will be following Romans 12:10-20 now.. Continue to be blessed.
And why do you say I judge, I only committed on your words,do your words judge others.
Because you have judged. You judged that I do not serve the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.. Which is a judgment and false as well..
**dusting my feet**are you sure that's dust and not sand? We are in Florida, after all.
Whichever one it is, I'm dusting my feet from that and future conversations with one that cannot comment without making personal shots at me, especially one that claims to have the same faith I do
People COMMIT crimes. Other people COMMENT on forum topics. I really don't think it's that difficult.
He certainly is committed to use the wrong word. As a dyslexic I certainly should be the last to poke fun at his commits.
just a heads up - he is a she - and she gets REALLY upset when people assume that she is a man. I've already gone down that rode just because I called her "dude" - even though I call everybody dude. Go figure.
Not to mention getting upset when someone disagrees
But, she doesn't want to argue, she just wants to tell us like it is? What's up with that?
I think that some people are just so set in their ways that they can't admit even a small error on their part. That results in just digging their heels in more and refusing to acknowledge that they may have been wrong - even if it's something small and insignificant. If they admit they may have been wrong about one thing, other things start to unravel.
Simply telling why she's right and why any Christian that disagrees worships a different God.. Which is strange,, Same bible, but different God. **Shrugs**
hmmm, that's not cool of me. I think I did even remember your conversation. No excuses, but it's early and I'm in coffee withdrawal. I love it when someone (me) says No excuses and then gives and excuse.
I'm nearing fifty and I only call my kids "dude" for the most part. I got a little weirded out the first time I heard somebody call a girl "dude."
Maybe we should just go back to the original meaning of "dude"...
my commits are to people who will understand,and if they don't I still speak !
that's what I'm saying though. Firstly, you're not making any commits. You're making comments.
Commits:
commits 3rd person singular present of com·mit (Verb)
Verb
Carry out or perpetrate (a mistake, crime, or immoral act): "he committed an uncharacteristic error".
Pledge or bind (a person or an organization) to a certain course or policy.
Comments:
comments 3rd person singular present, plural of com·ment
Noun
A remark expressing an opinion or reaction.
Verb
Express an opinion or reaction.
I'm saying that your English isn't very clear to anyone - let alone everyone. I'm trying to help you, here. By continually using the wrong words, and placing your words in the wrong order, you're not making your comments any more readable or respectable. People are going to discount them rather than try to make the effort to decipher them.Excellent job, helping others in their need. English is beautiful though difficult language. Thank you.
Once again you have taken it upon yourself to come directly at me for a general statement that I have made regarding the behavior of some Christians. And you misunderstand, I am not threatened at all by the word of God because I believe in God's word. What bothers me is self-righteous so-called Christians that try to use God's word as a way to elevate themselves to his position and think it gives them the right to judge others beliefs and how God speaks to them.. If you want to say we worship a different God, That's great because God has a different relationship with each of his children.. But we do believe and read the same Bible (except maybe matthew 7:1-5 may not be in your bible).. By all means, I would not want to serve a God that allows others to put themselves in his position and condemn others..
Once again, the issue isn't about people disagreeing with one another.. It's with those who seek to judge others who say they are the correct ones and have no proof that they are correct and cannot stand it if someone disagrees with them or reacts angrily when their beliefs are questioned
Once again.. If you don't want your beliefs and your theology questioned,, don't question anyoneTo Mr DM, Your personal opinion of me is evident, that is fine with me, and if you feel I am self righteous that is fine with me, My behavior has only been reflecting your behavior ! ,if you go back and view some of your answers to me ,I have only been saying what you have said to me. The problem is when you say it is right ! When I say it is wrong. Could it be it is not the statement it is the person with in. Example ,you said you were talking about some one else that said we worship a different God , in your last statement before I came on you stated a line of words that only me and you discussed, and you were talking about me. Next I do not have a problem with your opinions because I do not speak for you, and I do not want your approval of my statements if you feel objective , and really I believe in all , it is not about you ,and it is not about me , it is about the subject at hand ,that is ,what type of God do you worship, one you will speak up when disrespected ,or do you speak for yourself when you seemed wronged by your answers and opinion, that seems more important to you, The bigger picture is the one who created us all, and I am sure you know there is the God almighty,and there is god the opposer ,of the true God, if we side with those who do not believe in God could it be we are siding with his Almighty God enemy , Could it be said that in war on the battle field you represent those who do not like your country with those you represent, could you speak in agreement to the opposition in war. What would your fellow supporters think if they saw you laughing and agreeing with the opposition, they would think that you really are not of their kind,and you really have a different leader not the same as theirs.You see that is what I see, and the other feels you fit in fine just fine with them ,Why when we are suppose to be serving the same God? That is how You know we do not have the same God ,Not by what people say but by what they do.
We would just as soon hit the off button rather than turn the channel. And then, never turn it on again.
Time of celebration ! Your words are honorable , definitely it's just right time to have peaceful end.
You are right hit the off button.and never turn on again.
We tried that, but evangelists have not stopped the program. Can you please make them stop?
Okay, let me make something clear for you, because I've never encountered you before.
I discuss religion, because it is a topic that I still spent the majority of my life following, studying and living. I have not been an atheist forever. I grew up as a missionary kid in a southern baptist household. I lived abroad for over 2 years, ministering to people who WERE starving to death in a country that is now burning "witches" alive.
I went to a christian college where I studied theology, Greek, Hebrew and Latin. Just because I no longer believe in god (which is because i HAVE examined the evidence, read the bible more times than i can count - and continue to do so) does not mean that my interest in the subject automatically disappeared. That's like saying someone who has a relationship end is no longer interested in romance. It doesn't follow, and for you to in essence tell me "if I don't agree with it, don't talk about it" is a bit disingenuous.
As for your somewhat skewed view of suffering, I have some Epicurus for you.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
To say that god looks upon these dying, suffering dying children and allows it to happen to teach them or their parents a lesson is abhorrent. The free will argument has been debated for centuries, but if true it is immoral to the core. To say that a woman being raped who is a christian crying out to god for help only to have god ignore her pleas because it interferes with her rapists free will is repugnant. But god similarly is credited for people finding their car keys or helping them work out a schedule that allows them to take a family vacation. What's even more absurd is the following scenario. Say that woman survives being raped. She starts questioning her faith, and ultimately denies god. She's doomed to burn in hell for it. Meanwhile her rapist has been caught and given the death penalty for a murder he committed. He gets converted in prison and as a result can enjoy paradise in heaven while his victim is tortured forever. That is neither moral or just. It's just disgusting.
I don't want to tell Christians anything, but I am forced to do so because they will not stop evangelizing their religion. Can you make them stop?
If I find flaws and you see wisdom, then your knowledge is based on flaws.
Science has many answers to life and is finding more every day. Your religion has provided no answers to life, whatsoever.
But, science tries hard to eradicate sickness and disease so that people need not suffer those ailments. It has nothing to do with living forever.
Science can help them, but the worlds societies have developed and were shaped by the religious mindset these past many centuries and are broken beyond repair.
Why doesn't your God do anything to help them?
Science has far more answers than all the religions combined. Of course, there are those who are not satisfied that science hasn't got all the answers yet. They need to be reminded, of course, that the religions that ruled our world have stifled and suppressed anything scientific, hence science is still in it's infancy. Give it another couple thousand years, the same amount of time Christianity has had to show itself and we'll compare notes.
No, you aren't supposed to follow what anyone says, that's the point entirely, you think for yourself at all times.
So what?
But, one day it will find answers to everything. Religions will continue to offer nothing.
Why do you need to do that? Why can't you just keep it behind closed doors? What is the problem with that? Why must you feel you have to insist on your right to practice openly? What does that gain?
Too bad, because that is a very closed minded attitude.
The only way to confront hate speech is with more speech.
No faith required for evolution, just mounds of evidence.
So your going with the logic of a 6 year old and haven't given it thought since?
All the things except for God can be measured.
Agreed.
That's not why we don't murder. I brought 3 kids into this life, but I have no right to take it away.
That's not why we don't lie.
We don't steal because it hurts others.
What? Is anger one of the big ten? Don't give place for anger, doesn't mean don't get angry?
Perhaps you don't realize that it's the Christians who are knocking at the door. Ever had an Atheists at your door?
Thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I YEHOWAH thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers UPON THE CHILDREN unto the third and fourth generation of them that HATE ME; And shewing MERCY UNTO THOUSANDS of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
The bible is the only book that claims to be the word of God, which has his name Yehowah (often replaced with LORD in most bibles. No other writings can make this claim, so isn't it the most valuable book to be used in theological discussions.
As for the atheist who doesn't believe in God, his children can suffer according to the bible.This is blatantly untrue. Many other books claim to be the word of god, including the Koran, and the Hindu Vedas.
the atheists children will suffer due to our lack of belief? Is that supposed to be a threat? If an atheist doesn't believe in a god, let alone your god, why would we be afraid of anything that your holy book says? I know lots of atheists with children, and they're well-rounded, knowledgeable children with a sound foundation in critical thinking and skepticism. They're not suffering. They're thriving. Meanwhile, a lot of christian children are living in fear because they think that their friends of different religions are going to burn forever in hell. Sounds a little backwards from what you're saying, actually.Well your wrong, the bible is not the only book that claims to be the word of God. We have the Qur'an, the Torah and The Book of Mormon who claim to be the word of God. And I'm writing a new book with God that states anyone who threatens others children with harm shall have to suffer colder weather in the winter every winter unless you live in the southern hemisphere then the colder weather will come in the summer. Prophecy number 1.
Just an FYI ...
The Torah is the Jewish name for the first five books of the OT, also known as the 'Books of Moses' (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy). It is one and the same as the bible, at least the beginning of it. The entirety of the OT is called the Tanakh by the Jewish people, but it's the same thing.
The Qur'an is the OT re-written by Muhammad made up of the same stories and speaking of the same God.
The book of Mormon was written as a kind of 'sequel' to the bible, where they still recognize the bible as the word of God and are in fact speaking of the same God as well. The book of Mormon is just supplemental material that stems off the bible itself. It's also an incredibly entertaining broadway play I highly recommend.
Also, regarding your prophesy, I 'foresee' some problems. For one, people who don't threaten others' children will be suffering through the same weather patterns as those who do, so eventually I 'prophecize' there will be some turmoil there. And for another, if you take into consideration recent weather patterns and climate changes, hinging your prophecy on 'colder winters' may end up backfiring on you in the near future. People may take much milder winters and hotter summers as a sign that children are being treated better overall, or may notice there's no correlation between changing weather patterns and child threat statistics. Just some things to consider.
... as you were.Hmmm, sometimes I wonder if your listening when I'm typing. Know I know.
All these books are based on the OT, but it's my understanding that the OT and the Tanakh are not exactly the same and even Genesis is described differently.
I don't believe the God the Quran is the same as the God of the bible at all. The God of the bible includes Jesus and the Holy Spirit while according to the Quran Jesus was only a prophet. So the personality of the two Gods are different make them different.
I'm aware of what The Book of Mormon is and am baffled by it. That's why I'm going to write my own and say a spirit told me where to find the text and how to translate it, but I had to give the original back because that would be evidence and I don't need or want that. You see there is a sucker born every minute and I need to market to those.
As for my prophesy, yea well.And I am going to already believe it, before you even finish writing it, because who am I to question God. If you say that God told you to write it, then I HAVE to believe you...If not, then that would be the same as questioning the.....Bible. My God, some people have such little faith.
Hurry and finish writing so I can start a church. amencan I be a deacon? I really want to be a deacon and wear those snazzy blazers!
Sure, but we may have a hard time finding 20 wives for you. Not an impossible task, but I think I'll have to include something into the text that makes all sexuality sacred. You'd think it wouldn't be an original thought.
Twenty wives, can you imagine? One is enough thanks.Probably...or probably not, depending on how misogynistic the God of Rad's bible is.
And please understand it wouldn't be me saying it, but the holy word of God....as dictated from God to Rad Man.
You know if we do this right, we could end up with 20 young wives when we are dirty old me.
You're right, I think, Rad. According to a little bit of study I did recently on Judaism, the Tanakh is not just the OT. It includes the first five books, which are clearly called The Pentateuch (also the Books of Moses), but includes other items that are NOT included in the OT.
The Book of Mormon is not just a sequel to the Bible, in any way. It is a book that was revealed to someone completely other than Jesus or any of the prophets in the Bible. It was supposedly found on gold tablets and translated by Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church (as a whole).
The God of the Bible is different from the God of the Koran. Muslims do not believe in a triune God AT ALL. Allah is God, the Creator, the One. Period. They do not acknowledge a son of God, nor a Holy Spirit, as far as I know.
A dog walks by God, stops and pees on his leg. God looks down at the dog and says,"I think I'll create humans, men and women, and give them free will to do as they please, but at the first sign of anything trivial I find disturbing, I'll curse them forever and tell them they are evil. Whadda ya think?".
The dog looks up at God with a chuckle and says, "That's nuts dude", and finishes his pee.So it is ok for some one or animal to pee on you, that is really nasty I think, for you it would not be impossible.
Is that a proposition? I'm really not sure if we know each other well enough to do that. How about a movie first?
The Pentateuch is just the greek name for the Torah, which literally translates to 'five books'. These are the 'books of Moses'. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
The Tanakh is one and the same as the old testament. It consists of the Torah, the Nevi'im, and the Ketuvim. "The name is an acronym formed from the initial Hebrew letters of the Masoretic Text's three traditional subdivisions: The Torah ("Teaching", also known as the Five Books of Moses), Nevi'im ("Prophets") and Ketuvim ("Writings")—hence TaNaKh." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh
The God of the bible and the God of the Qur'an (Allah) is the same God. Muhammad wrote the Qur'an because he said the original writings had been altered by the Jewish people throughout the generations. His writing of the Qur'an was supposed to be the prophetic writings revealed to Muhammad by God via the angel Gabriel, that include the Torah and the Psalms among other things and rehashes many of the same stories. Allah in the Qur'an is the creator God of heaven and is one and the same as the God of the books of Moses, and both view Abraham as the father of their nation. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran
Both the Jewish faith and the Muslim faith reject Jesus as the son of God and count him as a prophet as well. The Jewish faith just doesn't refer to the OT as the 'Old Testament' because they don't accept the 'New Testament'.That's what I said. I did not say that Pentateuch translates to the Books of Moses
I'm sorry. I can't use wikipedia as a reliable source. Have you spoken to anyone Jewish? I have been very clearly told that the Tanakh includes writings which are NOT FOUND in the OT. Therefore to say that the Tanakh is one and the same as the OT is incorrect, unless I've been led astray by Jewish friends and Jewish organizations.
The God of Abraham. Isaac, and Jacob is one and the same. And since Ishmael was the son of Abraham, the God of Ishmael is one and the same as well. So, Jews, Muslims, and Christians worship the same Creator. Muslims, however, do not acknowledge Jesus as the son of God and do not believe in the Holy Spirit. Muslims and Jews are monotheistic completely. Christians are monotheistic, but believe in a triune Godhead. Excepting unitarians, of course.I think we're both basically saying the same thing. I'm not trying to argue or anything. Just sharing what I know. The main correction/clarification I wanted to make is that the God of the Qur'an is the same God as the Jewish/Christian God. The bit about the Pentateuch was more informational than anything.
As for the Tanakh/OT, they are generally the same, but there are always going to be particulars just to muddy the water a bit. For instance, the Tahakh often lists the books in a different order, and the english translations can vary, of course. Then there's the fact that there are multiple variations of the OT, the most common being the 39 book variety. Others, like in Ethiopia, still include books no longer included in the standard OT, like the book of Enoch and Jubilees. So, of course, there are differences there, depending on which 'OT' you're speaking of.
But the Tanakh is made up of the same standard books as the OT.
The Torah (The Law) - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy
The Nevi'im (Prophets/History) - Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi
The Ketuvim (Writings/Poetry/Wisdom) - Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs (Solomon), Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, Chronicles
When you count the books of Samuel, Kings, Chronicles, and Ezra-Nehemiah as two books each as the Christian OT does, then you have the same 39 books. True, Wikipedia can consist of inaccurate information, however what it says on this topic is consistent with what I've read elsewhere.I guess we can look at this two different ways.
They are the same God with vastly different personalities.
The God while based on the same OT are so different that we can't call them the same God.
If you think they are the same God as Muslims and Jews to worship Jesus and the Holy spirit or ask Jews or Christians to worship Mohammad?The main point of interest here is that the same set of books are at the foundation of all of these, which is the same set of stories about the same God. Christians believe prophesies that speak of a Messiah to come were speaking of Jesus. Jews believe it's speaking of someone who hasn't come yet.
Jews/Muslims do not accept Jesus, which is directly tied to the holy spirit as the holy spirit came into play following the death/resurrection of Jesus.You're telling me stuff I already know. The question is if the Gods have different personalities are they the same God?
If you already know this stuff then you should recognize that the source being the same set of texts cannot in themselves have Gods of differing personalities. The personalities you speak of only differ after the fact. They're various belief systems and ideologies built atop these texts. It's only afterwards that the differences arise because that's the contributions of humans trying to make sense of those ancient texts. There's only one set of stories so there can be no difference there. The differences come later. That's the human element at play.
I think your getting your own personal beliefs mixed in the mix. I understand they are based on the Jewish texts, but even the the Jewish Genesis is not exactly the same as the Christians, but that is neither here nor there.
Try to look a at it this way.
A book is written about the Jungle boy who is protective of his wolf family and will kill any who will harm his family. Later, someone writes a book about that same adult Jungle boy as a compassionate forgiving adult who appears to have developed a split personality disorder. Even Later, someone writes a book that says the adult Jungle boy was a great warrior and enjoyed killing those who disagree with him. Is this Jungle boy the same person in each story? One is a boy, one is compassionate and one is out fighting wars. Yes they are describe the Jungle boy, but each have different personalities and lives. I don't think I've been very clear here, I must be hungry.
If one writes four different stories using the same name, each character completely different, are they the same character/person?Let's try a similar idea. Say you read 4 different books about Abraham Lincoln. One paints him as a great leader and liberator. Another as a weak impressionable man. Another as a tyrant. Another as a selfish money-hungry politician. Do any of these change who the real Abraham Lincoln was?
It appears that the ONLY element at play is the HUMAN element. Humans wrote, and rewrote all that BS. No Gods required. The most simply and most likely deduction.
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