Religion is human phenomena...No other species has religion...Religion is man made concept...and diversion are bound to happen...every religion has that and every religion would keep having that...
Monkeys fling pooh
is that not a religion?
The word Christian, by its Acts 11 origin, means one in the likeness of the one called Christ and to be in that likeness one has to a homeless wanderer (Mat. 8:19-22, 19:29, 28:19-20 and John 3:3-8) sharing their views and moving on without the people knowing where they came from and where they went. I stand accused of that life therefore I'm standing up as a REAL Christian.
This life has taught me there is no right nor wrong nor any of the other multitude of judgmental adjectives because those judgments are based on the judger's preference conditioned in them and/or sense perceptions and not on any understanding of purpose.
It has taught me I can live like any other animal without the comforts we have been conditioned to require.
It taught me that of all human made things money is the least important.
And it taught me love is a form of hate and vise versa, that accepting things for what/who it is is indifference and the only way to live in peace. So, again I'm standing up.
I was an Evangelical Protestant for 25 years. I then converted to Catholicism and have been a Catholic for 2-1/2 years.
I believe that Catholicism is the closest to original Christianity because of apostolic succession, the Bible,traditions and the writings of the early Christians.
But I also feel that any religion that believes in the Trinity and accepting Christ is Christian.
I just seem to stay closer to God in the Catholic Church.
I thought that the bible said we would know eachother by our love for one another, but that's just me
Thats a true fact a true treasure mark of true christains,they will war nomore with each other .the truth is not against itself it does stand in whole not divided into many other divisions of believe! many religions have pagan and Idol worship that contaminates the the sacrifice given to God ! to worship him the way he wants ! not the way we want to give it! what a difference,its like going to college and we do our assignment without the outline ,and we turn the work in ,expecting a A or 100% .reality we did it our way .not what the teacher assigned , God is a greater person the universal Sovereign.He deserves our very best and worship in the purist form ,example cain and able .prove that God accepted Able not Cains ,we can offer our gift of worship, but God does not have to accept on his end in heaven! many today are worshiping in vain ! thier efforts are still at there door post ,there efforts are not being delivered , like a letter we think gets there and it got lost along the way .matthew 7:21-22 "many will say "proof not all religion are aproved by God! the real way is out there you have except its source! and apply it only hope to recieve his acceptance.
This will happen only when all the 32000 + denominations of Christians do what Jesus did and believe what Jesus believed; presently they are not doing this; they follow Paul instead of following Jesus.
if that was possilbe for all to agree, and they have not so far ,and what about the ones who dont believe at all ?,Matthew 7:21-22 says after all the worship they put forth he said get away from me you workers of lawlessness, all will not have Approval from God, this will be proven before the great tribulation.and the great war Armageddon
Only the mischievious and wicked persons oppose the messengers prophets of the Creator God; and one of them was Jesus.
Truth always creates Unity; and untruth created discord.
Peaceful Amageddon has started with the advent of Mirza Ghualm Ahmad- the Promised Messiah; Jesus died at the age of 120 years in Kashmir, India, so, he is not to come literally and physically; no use waiting for him.
you mention Paul ,that is true in some religions , but he did have a love for Jesus until the end, people have strayed away from his example! I think that people have to examine thier own lives ,no one is alike in the life styles of one another so we all have to adjust what applies to us personal !to be pleasing to God! but take his word as we read it and not say we are the exception to his rules ,only then will we see the truth and the door to life you will find.
As far as Jesus is concern he is the only valuble sacrefice that could buy a of us out of eternal death! Adam sold us into this disease ,Jesus body a prince , the first born of God would only be valuble enough ,Adam could not buy his own life back nor could he buy ours , so any man born here would have the dreaded disease of death.true we all die ,but surely now if we do we have been paid for ! at a value more then money ,the cost of his son ,a prince, Jesus, and now King! the many claimed to be the massiah have only proven bible prophesy to be accurate and true. Matthew 7:15 Mark13:22 and Rev 16:13 is poof Gods word is alive and on time.
I don't mean to be unkind, but your post reads like a melange of neo-Joycean stream-of-consciusness posing inside a booth of Alice's Restaurant beside the cuttings from a Pinter play. If--as a few writers would contend--Form is Nothing More than an Extension of Content, how does your reader get at your (PERHAPS) provocative content when the form won't allow it?
I have to admit this hub has lost its content and needs to be tossed into a garbage can. I also admit that it attracted a lot of people reading something I can not seem to find in the Bible. If I read this hub verbatim I would fail as a Satanist because even the Devil would be confused. I love a hub that keeps people who hate people busy all day, it gives them something to do.
Maybe you should learn the difference between a hub and a forum post before suggesting anything.
Have you actually read the bible cover to cover?
It's interesting that you seem to think people hate other people, solely based on this forum thread, not hub.
No it,s clear that people like are the ones hating ,and thats exspected of you sense you are a dark person who continues your power of jumping post to attack people who are not talking to you! because we all have seen you at work and your views allowing no one to express thiers because of your hatred is clearly seen ,so when I speak I don't address you anything !
and don't care what you think . I keep saying what i will say ! like it or not!
Claiming I hate because of your poor perception doesn't make it fact or even truth.
my percetion is what I hear from you, and that is hate you make it clear, in your jokes and views ,you give people the image of your self right here. and i see what you say about christains, fully in yourself at a degree has masterd
you tell who you are.
Well, if it wasn't so bad, then you wouldn't here about it from me.
Pointing out someone's faults or flaws isn't hate. Get real.
I cannot help what other people determine about what I say. I use small words so everyone who reads my posts can comprehend. It's not about right or wrong and it most certainly isn't about me. It's about addressing irrationality.
I say a lot about Christians. As I do about every other person who has irrational beliefs and attempt to spread them as a basis of fact or truth.
I do what I can to understand living life and I spread what I've learned. You don't like that, then too bad.
And, you continue to make a mockery of yourself. I know who I am, I know what my purpose is in life. Too bad you cannot say the same.
Who are you to decide irrational ,again deciding another views ,when yourself can not abide your own rules,I don,t have to know you in your face
the person you are is spelled out on printed page thanks to you , any opinion so far you have given which you continue to express has got out of line. with verbal attacks ,thats hatred , and you keep doing it.! and this is what you learned attacks others and poke fun from post to post . I only see
hatred coming from you and others that speak like you. you have become what you say about Christains unloving! you are proof.
You're joking right?
Deciding another views? Yes, it's done all the time, so what's your point.
My own rules? Get real. Do you even have a clue what rules I live by?
Actually, if you had any common sense, then you would actually learn something.
Yet, another perception problem on your part.
Kiss andTales, if I have actually spreading hatred then there would be a problem and it's obvious that you keep making the same claim yet it's not backed up by a damn thing.
Poke fun? You think I have fun doing this? Again, a bad perception on your part.
That's you reflecting on yourself.
Nice try. But, yet again, failed to prove anything worthy of acceptable proof. Just because I counter your fanatic rantings and point out the irrationality of your argument...it isn't considered HATE. Get that straight, would you.
say what you will and I will believe what you have shown me .no other words could fit it. now we are plaaying the last word game! not me ! and you have proved what you yourself are , I don't have to really say anything ,because you keep doing it !my last post to you ! I really don't care for your unloving ,unkind ,and dogmatic behavior ,no one can learn anything from that! except its a waste of time !
Shown you what exactly? Hate? Try again. I done nothing but be patient with you and you continue to call me hating on people. It's absurd.
I'm sure you have a large vocabulary than just the word hate, just because you use plenty of them in posts.
If I wanted to be playing word games, I would. I am capable of doing so. However, I'm not.
Really? I live my life by a high level of integrity. At least I am honest about myself and what I bring to the conversation. All you seem to do is bring your own self-proclaimed higher understanding, which is completely irrationally based.
Really? I don't, which what I'm attempting to get through to you. If I was actually spilling hatred on this thread, then I would have been kicked out. So you have no ground.
Yes, you're wasting your time. You keep spouting off the same nonsense, using poor grammar and punctuation, on top of it, I'm doing whatever I can just to understand your posts. If you want unloving, go read your bible.
A few years ago I did read the Bible cover to cover. Long story. I don't see how any intelligent person can believe this is true, when science proves Earth has been around for what, four or five billion years? Not four million? I think they don't get the concept of myths. But fear not, I plan to hub on them soon!
I've read it a few times. Myths are something to learn from yes, but not to be considered factual by any stretch of the imagination.
@Jean, where does it give a time frame of how old the earth is?
thants kinda funny, Jean.. science has only proved the earth has been round since columbus,. before then it was kinda flat.. just picking at ya!.,,, 8000 years has been a lng time regardless of the millions.. buit think of 'eternity'...
at lease it teaches me manors and respect ! Oh thats right you don't have nothing to go by explains the darkness of you! and the grammar is not much of a problem because you read me well! and talk to soon about getting off of hubs ! you talk like you got favors in the office of hubs perhaps you do and maybe thats why you talk the way you do , its a shame to befriend ignorance ! because thats what you have become!
I can see your respect throughout every single one of your posts.
Listen lady, and I use that word lightly.
I have written more hubs on character traits of people(human beings) than you've managed to write hubs. You talk about specific things, yet your actions speak louder than your words.
Yes I read well, but that doesn't say much for your grammar or sentence structure. As I have already said more than once, I'm trying to understand your writing(posts). You don't make it easy.
Getting off of hubs? Bye.
No I don't talk like I got favors in the office of hubs and make no implication whatsoever. It should show you that what you are claiming is hate isn't actually hate. Got it?
By pointing out irrationality when it is seen is why I talk the way I do. I am blunt and straight to the point. I always remain honest with myself, so I can be honest with those I engage. Something you should learn more about. Just a suggestion.
Every human being on the planet is ignorant in some regard. If you don't know that, then you do know now. To claim that any befriends ignorance, is say that they choose ignorance and I'm sorry, but I don't fall into that category. However, most religious folk I talk to do.
And, again, it would be a bad perception on your part. Maybe it has something to do with your limited comprehension issues or maybe it's from even deeper issues. I'm pretty sure it's from the latter than the former.
listen Mr Cagsil right now you are in your own world with your own irattional opinions ,thats your right thats your view ,no, the truth is you poke fun at others and name call,this is truth other hub people have went threw this with you and others, I don't care how long you have written hubs ,I dont care what the case of you may be ,because you set the title for that, at lease give others the same consideration you want for yourself. I don't pic your sight to come and poke fun of your views I have the same freedom too, this is my problem with you and others ,and it is a suttle form of hate ,rather you accept that or not !
I have just taken a few minutes to read back up your posts and I agree with an earlier poster that you are pretending the bad grammar and spelling mistakes - this and the incomprehensible babble about nothing at all kinda points you up as a troll. Which hubber are you a sock puppet for ?
I would actually like to weigh in here for a moment if I may. I try to stay out of the drama of Hubpages because it's pointless but I would like to say that Cagsil and I do not see eye to eye on every issue but at least this man says what he means and can stand on his own two feet. I am not compairing him to you KIss and Tales so please don't take offense to what I just said. All I am getting at is that this guy has made me question my beliefs and challanged me to look deeper into what it is I claim to believe. What I have learned is that people only offend you if you let them. Here on the interweb.......you're pretty untouchable. If he was spreading hate and bigotry than he would be banned, he wouldn't be excepted as the person he is here on Hubpages. So plainly put, if you feel he is a jerk, don't engage him! If you feel he is being completly rude or offense tell him with an example. Don't freak out and rant on and on about it. I have yet to read where you have said, "You're a jerk because you said this................" I mean really, what did he say?
I meant respected not expected..............
To those who follow this post and others it is not my intention to attack anothers point of view ,we all have the opportunity to voice our view ,as I said before I have a problem about people taking thier view and attacking me with there suttle words and jokes and pictures , if you notice Mr cagsil comes behind me in certain post to poke fun ,and use certain terms to my views , like he did from last post and other post , I do not look for his hubs and poke fun of his views , and attack his view or point ! any one can talk to me not at me ,or with no respect ,why was he there behind a statment I made to some one else again attacking,earlier ,he has done it before , and its true if you do not agree why go on a post to start argument by insulting a person! I use the word hatred because ,he keeps doing it ,and thats how it feels to me, maybe to nobody else because he does not do it to his friends , or who ever that satifies his reason not to .Hub will do what they wish, good or bad ! I don't worry myself why they have not tooken action ! they have there own reasons , but I do know wrong from right! and I know there are others who feel the same!
Why what comes after that? I mean I can think of a few things, but definitely don't belong in this thread.
Babe with our records we should be rubber bands by now
But I am thinking the same
Nice to see we're on the same wavelength.
Room to room?
Can someone please stand to tell me where the forums are?
I don't know. But I do know that I give up on this so-called invigorating exchange of ideas about matters religious. What a colossal waste of time it has been trying to initiate or respond to or agree/disagree with someone, expecting--good grief!--that they might actually READ what you wrote, consider its merits and deficiencies, analyze it, and reply with real arguments based on real evidence and moving towards conclusions, however tentative. It's called reasoned discourse. People actually change their positions on issues sometimes after bowing to excellent arguments. It's how we come to understand, to evolve as thinkers, to advance the human race.
Well, none of that there stuff is happening here. What we have here (with rare and deeply appreciated exceptions) are Believers cramming their monomaniac mindsets down everyone's throats, and Non-Believers blasting broadsides at the Believers for being monomaniac. Then INDIVIDUALS get into petty little name-calling sandbox snipes at each other for 15 or 20 posts, then the silly cycle re-invents itself and revs up again.. And usually all of this crap has almost nothing to do with anything related to the so-called Discussion!
Bloody waste of time. I'll go count dots on the wallpaper or start watching the Shopping Channel or dedicate myself to re-runs of the Dick Van Dyke Show or talk to my dog. ANY of those activities would be more stimulating than the mind-numbing drivel that drips from the pages of this so-called Religious site.
Some of you should just flat-out be ashamed of the sham you call po9sts.
Adios Amigos! I actually wish you all well. I just don't want to be around any longer while you do that.
The churches that adhere to the basic Christian concepts like Jesus is the Son of God, He dies for our sins, that there is a trinity etc. are actually Christian churches.
When they veer from the basics, they are by definition a cult. The basic concepts can be found in the Apostles' Creed.
LMAO, please define cult.
The most literal definition would include all religion.
1.: formal religious veneration : worship
2.: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
So if you believe in any religion, by the above definition you are a cultist. Congratulations.
A cult is any group that denies the deity of Jesus Christ.
Jesus is the one and only mediator in between mankind & God. Jesus Christ is the only way to have a relationship with God. Without accepting Jesus as our Lord, the only payment for our sins- we will remain separated from fellowship with God.
It is because of Jesus we can receive the Holy Spirit- God's spirit. There no other way for man to be saved except believing in Jesus Christ who God sent, and foretold of. Now that Jesus has came died and resurrected from the dead will this world choose to see the light,and life that God offers in His son?
We can not just appear to be good and godly but we must actually know him in spirit and truth - again the way to this is Jesus Christ.
We must not say we know God and deny the power in/of Jesus Christ that has been freely offered to us- so we can overcome the sin and evil in this world.
He is the way, the life and the truth- No man can come to the father unless they come through Jesus, the one that died to make them/ us to be able to stand in God's presence without sin, blemish, fault, condemnation.
We stand condemned by our own sins without the easiest thing required- that we believe in Jesus.
God made it way to easy. It is our sin that stops us from drawing closer to God- God will even help us in the midst of sin, but people refuse because they do not want to change or even allow God to change them.
So in the end they choose sin over the love and mercy of God. How sad that is.
Heavenbound, you are tied up! Tied up in the book knowledge which you have sucked in. We have heard all that pita-pata before. Unless you can go into your self, in the Here and Now, you will never find enlightened awareness.
ANY enlightened being, whether that being were Jesus or Buddha or anyone, would be able to say "I" am the way, meaning he/she was the only way.
IF Jesus, as a human being, said what he is claimed to have said, he was simply reiterating the basic principle of the Here and Now... I AM, meaning this moment, this infinite moment, when I exist. Not in the past, not in the future, but in the PRESENT>
This is where you find your soul, your self, your existence and eternity. Not sometime in the future which you must search for. NOW>
The message, the gospel, of all enlightened beings, has always been this. It is fundamental.
I meant to say any enlightened being would NOT be able to say he/she was the only way. Sorry for my mistyping.
Right Now counts as much as our future. What we do now will be to the life or death of us. So Jesus is with me now so later I won't regret not following the wisdom and guidance of God.
It is about being transformed into the image of Christ-from faith to faith, glory to glory, step by step. God takes our past, present and our future and through his promises and faithfulness -to shape and mold us- so with every now moment we can be one with Christ through his spirit. So he teaches us how to be holy and walk in it by purging us of sin and past hurts are healed- the issues of the heart.
I am searching for nothing- I have connection with my creator through Jesus, I lack nothing in God because fullness of life is with him. I am merely sharing with all that Christ is the way to a real relationship with God- once you accept Christ God steps into every moment and shows us the way to life.
God bless you!
The sweetest name I know
I have rarely heard such a babbling heap of nonsense. Even if there was such a being, why would anyone want to have such a slimy relationship with it. What is wrong with real people !
1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart.
Psalm 126:5 Those who sow in tears will reap with songs of joy.
It really doesn't matter what you say- I am actually telling you of the true and living God and how to have fellowship with him. You will not understand much about Jesus or the power of God until you realize you actually need God- and that your life is frail and sustained already by God- because of his mercy.
How prideful it is of us when we refuse to seek God to know him, when we refuse to take his forgiveness and redemption.
Than we want to turn around and say there's no God because of this or that taking place - yet, we have failed to realize we started out wrong to begin with.
If we would just humble ourselves and realize that there is something more important than the pleasures of this world- that our biggest sin is not letting God help us.
We expect God to go against his own word and prove himself to us first- without us even believing anything at all. We can not have the things we do not ask for from God- because we did not ask for it. What a choice. This choice to refuse God and our way to be delivered will effect our whole family and etc. How can God keep our families and remove the damage of that sin and rebellion has caused without us going to the only one that can help us?
So if anyone is walking in non-sense it would be those who expose their whole family to the enemies plan -that God already gave us refugee from.
So if we fail to stop and ask for directions in this life, it is our fault not God's- He already gave us a clue- forgiveness & mercy for all who CHOOSE to believe.
God bless you and I pray for God to reveal to you Jesus Christ the only mediator in between mankind and God- the source of our life in Jesus name.
And there is the reason that people run from Christianity in droves. Christ wasn't a bad guy... his followers are nuts though.
They don't believe in Jesus and his teachings; they believe the deviant Paul.
We must be faithful to God and follow him with all our heart, mind, body and soul.
This is what we strive to do- so we can bring glory to his name. So we pray that God strengthens us to not sin against him, that God will put a guard on our hearts, so we will only receive that which is from him, we stay renewed in his presence by seeking him. This so we can go out into the world and share the love of Christ to the dying world.
For those that will believe we do this- according to John 17. We are dwelling and focusing on the call of Christ and willing to obey and follow him- no matter the cost- faithful to death, real faith in God is to trust God enough to obey him, to learn obedience to God, not perfection but dependency- complete and total surrender to God, so we can be used for God.
We are not to be confused with all the different doctrines, we know who we are in Christ.
Not by this world's understanding, or corrupt judgement, but by God who is our righteous judge, who loves us and has called us to be bold, confident, unwavering, faithful, with no confusion.
So if we serve the same God than we would have the same convictions- we would want to honor God and lead people to Jesus by telling them about it. We are not supposed to look and be like everyone else- we are to love them in the state they are in- because we to were once in that state- Jesus loves us while we were still sinners not having received redemption yet- Love truly changes a person- if we love someone we want what is best for them and if we love God we will follow his word PERIOD.
1 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3 Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
4 No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier. 5 Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules. 6 The hard-working farmer ought to be the first to receive his share of the crops. 7 Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.
8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal ; but the word of God is not imprisoned. 10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. 11 It is a trustworthy statement : For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. 2 Timothy 2
to Mr (5511) I learned a valuable point , and that is many christain views are a threat ,to those that do not share your view ! its like we express and want to share with the world ,but we knew the outcome would be so ,we have been told before.like a code and decoder ,how can they understand a language they do not want to speak ! the sounds come out screaching of noise that hurt there ears ,there are many gifted and talented people ,who have good things to contribute to life.other then what we believe and have faith in . the key is find out what they are good at and what there gifts are, I am sure its not arguing about what we believe in.a time and place for eveything.I think you dont look down on my choice and view and I will return the same consideration to you ,peace
By "God" in the above quote is meant the Creator God; and Jesus was no god or son of god.
Jesus was born of Mary and hence was called Son of Mary; and Mary did not have any husband with the name of god or son of god.
there is a another view ,sense Mary was pregnant before Joseph touch her
because it was written he was going to divorce her,Matthew 1:19 she was inseminated by Gods power! and after he learned the truth he stayed with her and had other children! we know that they do this in science today with women! in this case God would be th father who did this operation .
Do you mean Mary has a husband with the name or attributes of a god?
This is Harry Potter stuff, Heavenlybound, but without the good fun of make-believe.
I spoke before of book knowledge. You have it all in a nutshell.
You believe firmly that there is a God in reality, I don't accept it. You believe there is life/consciousness of the individual human after death. I know there is no such thing.... it's nothing after death. NO THING.
You may continue believing what you want, but don't drag others into your fantasy.
Catch the next train from Platform 9 3/4, Kings Cross!
well in order for some one to take what you say into consideration ! they believe that some one made you! and now, you want to tell him you are his imagination,you are not realy there, right ,
Kiss & Tales, I have absolutely no problem with the possibility that an "entity" of force, or something out of this world, i.e., infinite, created us and this world. But I do not accept the idea that this entity is sitting in judgment of you or me.... this is a set up by other human beings for control. The Ego is very much at work here and it's human, not superhuman.
To Create is one attribute of the Creator God; He has many attributes.
Thank you for explaining what you mean and I do agree with you that people do use the word of God as power for themselfs , for money gain ,and just power to controll other humans! The key to not allowing this to happen to us personal is never subsitute anything in the bible or listen to people who does something different then what in written, This why so many religions today.if you take a antique Car and you start to add things,and take away things , then sooner or later it will not be original,you will have a car ,but could you really say its original to being a classic! thats what has happen with the word of God ! There is a way to worship the Universal Sovereign the right way acceptable to him ,not the way many have been giving doing, True I do agree with that about controll of humans over humams ,but they are influenced by a greater spirit force who want us to loose our hope of a problem free earth! Psalms 145:16 is a gift from God to us to live on earth problem and troble free,Isaiah 65:21-23 "says they they will build houses ,plant vineyards," these spirit forces are contolling many religions today .and yet that is some peoples choice in the end
But the truth of how to worship God is really their and only can be seen by the pure in heart and those really seeking the true God!
You speak that God is pictured as Judging others ,Well the the best way to understand this ,if you are a parent of children you know from birth on up they have to be supervised until grown, and yet that supervision is still in force by law if not humans would not be here now. So Judgment here is missplace in that they have said man can rule man, and they do not need the one who created us to tell us how to live ( the earths condition now is proof man can not rule man and be happy) so now people are saying where is this God ,why don't he do something ! not because of their direspect will he be ordered ,he has a time to clear all the troubles away!Now is the time to find citizens of his Goverment! (the Lords prayer Matthew 6:10)
has been answerd ! yet people will not accept how and when his goverment will fully rule. Daniel 2:44
I am aware of the terminology you have used, e.g., "....to worship the Universal Sovereign the right way acceptable to him..." because I was very much into the christian stuff years ago. You are sort of "dyed in the wool" with these ways of seeing "truth." No problem with that, provided it's pertinent and helpful to you. If and when in your life you wish to change your understandings and opinions that is your choice and no one may interfere with your free choice.
However, having stated your opinions, as in your posts here, can you just, simply, without qualification, allow some other person to have an opposite view to your own? Do you have the grace to accept that your view is not the only possible point of view? Can you listen to the opposite point of view without judging the other person? Can you be unconditional in your love?
Does your understanding and your belief depend for its efficacy on the acceptance of others? Does it really matter that not everyone agrees with you?
For me it does not matter one hoot that others disagree with my ways of thinking. My thoughts and understandings have come about by listening, considering, digesting and filtering what I have heard from others, then deciding what I want to retain for myself. They are not set in stone. I am free to accept or reject.
The world is a wonderful place and big enough for all of us, with all our diversity. In this context you could say it's the "artistic creation of a devine godhead."
But I could never go down that road whilst remaining free.... I would be dragged back into the quagmire of religion. A backward step for me.
I believe there is an enormous difference between religion and belief. Religion is for those who need the comfort of a visual environment and re-enforcement of their belief through participation in the various religions.
Belief is simply the unfailing personal conviction that God either exists or he does not.
Since most religions teach of or about God, or a God, they help lend credence for the achievements of man and condemnation of his failures. They provide the argument for salvation and damnation. They help define what is good and bad about society; they give us moral conscience.
Therefore, God is often viewed as all seeing, all caring, merciful, the giver and the taker; yet, no one knows or can prove whether God does or does not exist. We live in a world of belief and assumption.
To argue this point is senseless and is one that will never be solved. Those who belong to a religious denomination, regardless of what God they worship, those who do not belong, but believe in their God, and those who do not believe in the existence of any God will only know the answer once…death will determine who is right.
This is about right - and if people would realise that killing others in the name of such a "maybe" situation is ridiculous all would be fine.
This could sum it up...
I am happy to say that this does not reflect my current opinion. Most believers are downright nice people.
Yes, someone was asking for a real Christian? Sorry I'm late, Can I help you?
hey onusonus we are asking for christians not cults.
Christianity is not a religion. A real Christian is someone who believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God and has excepted him as lord and savior regardless of the denomination. Jesus said "Don't concern yourself with religion rather follow me.
If real christians can spell and use the correct words for what they think they mean - then there are not many in this thread. Who are these people who are unable to write properly, and so presumably are unable to read properly, but who still insist on trying to tell others what their book says.
right! what my book says , so you can not talk about a book you dont believe in , why say anything! the view was to some one else not to you,and again my spelling seems to be used as a reason not to voice opinion and yet your manners are worse then that.,but I will look over that, because I am not like you.
As I was not replying to you but making a general comment I guess you recognise yourself in my post. You have already been spotted as a sock puppet by others here, who are you socking for ？
And, just to elucidate, if you can't spell or comprehend grammar correctly then how can you understand what you read ?
then if you you fill thats a problem why do you post your view to me !a person who can not hear with their ears , do you continue to use your voice to talk to a person who can not hear!! So why do you post to me ,you dont understand my words,
because what I am saying you don't like , thats your view, but when I am talking to some one else why speak if you do not understand, you do! now you want to focus on grammar !you are responding because you want me to respond to you!for your ego! as though you speak for others! I have said what I want to say ,and its over, if what I am writing to someone has a problem, they can speak for them self, and as for you, is that what you are doing being a sockpuppet for others ,you do not like my views , I don't have to answer to you for my believe or faith I have, is not based on rather you like what I say or not ! you seperate your views with now petty judgements, do as you wish ,but your point can be clearly seen .If you do not understand what I am writing then don't bother to concern yourself, it only to prove you are petty,are you a proof reader for hubs forum? ,sence ,this post you have written is personal not because you have a view of the subject ! this is getting old , and again if you learn some manners I can take your view of my grammar in thought!, thanks if thats all you have to complain about!
The Free Dictionary
a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader
You notice the word "false" in the definition. That is what I meant. As I said before, there is a definite set of concepts that traditional Christianity accepts. It is found in the Apostle's Creed. Sects that say they are Christian deviate from these fundamental beliefs, where as Christian denominations hold these beliefs.
Let's just break that down...
"A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false"
Christianity is followed by approximately 2.1 billion people in the world. There are approximately 6.8 million people in the world. So, two thirds of the world thinks Christianity is false.
Of that 2.1 Billion, approximately half (by recent survey) of American Christians do not believe in your "definitive concepts" of Christianity.
Sounds pretty cultish to me.
But lets move on...
"with its followers often living in an unconventional manner"
Once again, protestant fundamental Christianity is practiced by about 1 billion out of just shy of 7 million... Not exactly unconventional, but certainly not the norm.
"under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader"
Which is how most Christian churches are ran... one clergy and maybe some deacons...
So, seriously you-who essentially are a cult member yourself-are going to pass judgement on which members of Christianity are members of a cult?
Pot meet kettle...
It isn't a judgement. It is going by the Apostle's Creed. Even a club has rules to adhere to in order to be that particular club.
The point is there are basic tenets of Christianity that go back to ancient times and these tenets are found in the Apostle's Creed. It states the basic beliefs of Christianity.
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Those are the basic beliefs of Christianity starting in antiquity. So, if a group, for instance, says they are Christian, but they don't believe He rose from the dead, then Christians call it a heresy.
That is what I'm saying.
You go by your apostle's creed then, I'll go by the teachings of Christ.
I don't believe in a virgin birth, I don't believe Christ was resurrected, and I don't believe he was any more a child of God then anybody else. The Christians in my church believe that the real message of Christ was love, compassion, peace and service to the community.
Fundamentalists picket funerals, expect 13 year old girls that have been raped by their daddy to have the child and deny happiness to an entire group of people by denying them the right to marry...
I like my cult better than yours.
I haven't been trying to argue with you. Just trying to discuss.
Fundamentalists picket funerals, expect 13 year old girls that have been raped by their daddy to have the child and deny happiness to an entire group of people by denying them the right to marry...
Concerning the above paragraph of yours, It sounds like you are being insulting to me, and think I believe things that you are just assuming.
I actually was trying to answer the original question that started this thread, when I began posting to it, and attempting to clarify for that Hubber.
I haven't written anything is this thread as an attack on anyone. God bless you.
This creed called the apostle's creed is probably anything but, perhaps a creed invented by the Catholic Church. It smacks of the trinity which is unbiblical and Yashua did not descend into any pagan mythical hell either. He was dead unconscious in his grave before being resurrected.
A quick question.
The "Catholic Church" wasn't started until at least 325CE (Give or take a few years). All of the Apostles that followed Jesus were dead long before this time, why would any mention of a catholic church be included in a creed supposely created by them? And the original start of the Catholic Church, viewed the apostles as the "saints" mentioned in this creed.
This creed is on par with the Nicean Creed. Created (or at least edited) by members of the Roman "Catholic church" long after the time of Jesus and the Apostles.
Good point DS. How could the creed have been from the apostles when the catholic church hadn't been invented yet?
According to Wikipedia:
The title, Symbolum Apostolicum (Symbol or Creed of the Apostles), appears for the first time in a letter from a Council in Milan (probably written by Ambrose himself) to Pope Siricius in about 390: "Let them give credit to the Creed of the Apostles, which the Roman Church has always kept and preserved undefiled". But what existed at that time was not what is now known as the Apostles' Creed but a shorter statement of belief that, for instance, did not include the phrase "maker of heaven and earth", a phrase that may have been inserted only in the 7th century.
So it didn't exist in it's present form prior to 390!!!! The other statement is "Let them give credit to the Creed of the Apostles, which the Roman Church has always kept and preserved undefiled". How did the pope know whether or not this was true? Do we believe him?
The word "catholic" means universal. That's the reason for its mention in the Apostles' Creed. It does not refer to what is now known as the Roman Catholic Church, rather to the universal christian church.
True. But again, that "universal" concept was not introduced until the 4th century. The original "church" started by the apostle's wasn't viewed as a universal church at that time. It didn't become a "universal church" until it was instituted as the official church of Rome, with Rome being the controlling rule over much of the known world.
And the Apostles, wouldn't have referred to the old prophets as saints. They would have referred to them as the "prophets" or "forefathers".
These creeds were created or at least heavily edited, by what is now known as the Roman Catholic Church.
And for those who don't wish to believe it, all modern Christians come from the Roman Catholic Church. To date, there is no record of a modern church doctrine that follows the teaching of the original teachings of the apostles. Most of what we see today, is from the teachings of Paul, adapted beliefs of Jesus' teachings to fit into church doctrine and all of this blended with OT teachings and Roman, Greek, Norse, Egyptian Pagan traditions.
I am not downing anyone's beliefs as we are all free to belief as we choose. But, if we study all of the texts written in those timeframes and not just the english version of the modern bible, one would get a much better understanding of the original beliefs of the apostles and church leaders of the first century prior to Rome taking over the belief system and producing what we see today.
Well said, and I agree with it all, except for the statement about the Apostles not referring to old testament prophets as saints. In many of Paul's writings, he refers to ALL believers in the messiah (including the prophets who foretold His coming) as saints. At least that's how I've always understood it. The communion of said saints (again, as I've understood it) is our agreement, whether living on Earth or in Heaven.
I've done a great deal of scripture study over the years, and as a former nun, am quite familiar with the history of the Roman Catholic Church and the development of its doctrines.
Nice to talk with you, btw.
Sorry, by Apostles, I was referring to the 12 not Paul.
Always nice talking with you as well.
Stop it you two! You are both sounding moderate and cooperative, and I'm pretty sure that is against the tos on the religious forums!
LOL...Oops..I keep forgetting about the TOS of the forums...
I thought you must have forgotten a few posts back, but it's all good again now.
Do ya really think goddunnit?
I have my own view of things. However when discussing topics here, I attempt to stick to the facts of the biblical text itself (as best they can be determined) and if discussing theology itself, sticking to what is held as "truth" by the majority of the scholars.
I try to avoiding debating individual beliefs themselves. It is my opinion, that the only why we are going to find out who's beliefs or lack thereof are correct is when we die. Personally, I think there is going to be alot of surprised people (theoretically speaking).
If there is a heaven, there is going to be some really P.O.'d Christians as to who is actually made it. And if reincarnation is correct, well we might see a few more "lower class" animals. And if there is nothing, well then it might be in our best interest to get the absolute most out of this life, as it isn't that long to begin with.
I know that I don't want to be at the end of my life and have regrets as to what I did or didn't do.
I will say this much. I don't think there is a "God" as those who are "believers" claim it to be. Is there a higher force out there? That is a question, that I think my answer is best kept to myself. I might be wrong, and I wouldn't want to drag folks down with me if I am. But, if someone is interested in hearing my version, then grab a beer and a chair on the backporch and we can talk about it.
You have beer AND a back porch? And you are willing to have a civilized conversation?
I'm on my way! Earnest, you coming? You can be designated babysitter
Sure do. Cold beer (think I might even have a jug or two of shine sitting around as well), covered back patio actually, and a firepit. It just begs for civil conversations. It is always a nice thing sitting out back talking.
Moonshine and a firepit? What part of the south do you live in?
In VA. But alot of my family comes from Kentucky (Dad's side) and southwest Missouri (Mom's side).
Got squirrels that run the fence and lots of birds.
Count me in, any wildlife to watch as well?
Right, Melissa?!?! Sure not something you see everyday! (The willingness to have a civil conversation about such things, I mean).
Moderate and cooperative??!!? earnest, how DARE you call me such a thing! Good to see you, friend.
Got it. I can see what you're saying there.
i have never seen a fake Christian they are all real Christians because if you believe in the Trinity your a christian period . Now that I said that if you believe that the messiah is truly the son of God and that he died for your sins then you are a true believer in what the scriptures teach , Christians believe in a false doctrine made up by men
Just the same as muslims, fairies at the bottom of both gardens.
I used to tell my kids that eating all their greens would offer the same effect.
Like keep one regular in church, Hollie?
To jonnycomelately I just read your feed back to my last post ,thank you for your feed back , this is to your view to the subject , people seem to cross opinion with views , when I post it's my view ,just as you post yours ,why do people takes views persanal ,You say in your comment about my view being like harry potter , there you have judge my view , and am not free to post my view without being judged for it .many ask for the floor to views ,and they get offended when you respond with yours , maybe because you just want others to see your view, and not others, that would not be fair! it would not be a forum of views, so I can tell of offence when people result in name calling ,like harry potter stuff, or pathetic , or many other names ,when they don't like your view ,it.s clear people want post to be one sided ,not realy caring for anothers view just thier own! .this is not possible, to me sence you can talk ! I can too.
I have never denied you your opinion, Kiss and Tales. Always give respect to you for your opinion, but not the opinion itself.
I confront christians who expect others to accept the existence of god as a given fact.
If you or any other christian was to word your statements about god as "in my opinion, God exists...." then that allows for other points of view and a disbelief. It would give respect to those others, including myself, who do not accept the existence of a god in reality.
Yet I don't hear such willingness on the part of most christians. Most are adamant. Inflexible. Blinkered to any other possibility.
For me this world is infinitely bigger and more complex, more wonderful, more mysterious. I could never worship a god that is so small as the one many christians espouse.
That all seems reasonable enough to me.
Oh no! Christians fighting about who's belief is a cult?
What ever dude, your just jealous because your not a real atheist, your one of those off brand unbelievers. Not hardcore enough. Time to step it up. A real atheist would be out picketing churches.
You are right of course, I am not a real atheist, there is no god.
earnes... if you read the bible and nothing else, You will find your answers. Just the bible, not the book of mormon none of the crap just the bible you will find all the answers you need. and hey, I don't think your the devil. lol
Done that years ago. I was a christian at one time myself.
Ok, good so you know that the belief in God helps people survive. helps them cope, helps them get threw another day of this crappy world. I don't know what you went through but Bible is good. Us so called Christians are the ones that mess up God's good word that he gave to the world.
Your a good man earn.... you were just hurt by someone that did not know the true word of God.
No, I just learned to think for myself again and realised that the bible and religion were made by men to control other men as people try to do on these threads every day.
I don't think it's fair to say religion is about control. Yes, there are those that use it that way, but in my experience with many different people of many different faiths, most people are just 'good folk' trying to get by and live a happy life.
There is nothing about being religious that says you can't think for yourself... that's kind of like saying going to school means you can't learn, because you have teachers...
I find most people to be fine, I find religious zealots to be insane megalomaniacs.
I'm curios, what would you classify yourself as? A non-religious zealot?
I wonder why you come into threads like this with no belief in God and stir things up outside the scope of discussion?
If you don't know why, then there is no point telling you as that would be ignorance-by-choice on your part.
No, I just don't presume to understand other peoples' motivation.
Sorry. you are not that stupid. I don't believe you.
It has nothing to do with intelligence earnest. It has everything to do with being open, believing in the goodness of others, and giving trust(compared to making people earn it).
If I tell myself why someone does something, then I am setting myself up as a judge, which I am not. I am a student, and a brother to mankind.
No, first and foremost you are a religionist.
You might have to tell me your definition of religionist.
Yes, I adhere to a religion. Yes, my entire set of goals and beliefs revolves around love and understanding.
However, I don't see how that is at odds with being a student and brother to mankind. I definitely don't see how that is at odds with my value of not assuming people's motivation.
My definition of a religionist is very straight forward.
A. Anyone who has an invisible friend who wants to "explain" to others how they should think and live their lives.
B. Anyone who reads a psychotic book filled with hate, torture abuse and threats who thinks it is about love.
To my mind that makes one a closed minded megalomaniac who is no brother to mankind and accepts conditional love as love as long as it comes from their religion and not someone else's.
Then by your definition, no, I'm not a religionist. If you want to define me that way, you can... it's your choice and I'm not trying to tell you how you should think or live. I'm not even trying to tell you what my God thinks you should think and live your life. I'm just here for good discussion.
As for interpretation of your hate-book, you already declined to discuss specifics with me, so there's no point in going any further with that.
As for love, I believe it should be to all and from all, no matter background or faith.
As-Salaam Alaikum my friend.
You live out of the Torah would be my guess, what do you do with the NT? Rip it out?
Ah, I see you missed my first two posts into this discussion.
I don't live out of the Torah, or out of the NT, or out of the OT, or out of the BoM, or the Quran. I find truth in all of them.
I believe there is truth that stems from love, and it manifests itself everywhere. I celebrate any truth I can find.
"And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to (do) good works;" - Quran, 2:148
"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." - NT, Matthew 5:9
"And ye will not have a mind to injure one another, but to live peaceably, and to render to every man according to that which is his due." - BoM, Mosiah 4:13
"And the work of righteousness shall be apeace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and bassurance for ever." - OT, Isaiah 32:17
Unfortunately, I know some better than others, and I don't have them all accessible at all times. But, like I said, I live for goodness, which can be found among all people.
LMAO... Have fun emrldphx. I'm assuming you are a U.U. or have very similar religious affiliation. If nothing else, you'll confuse the hell out of everybody.
By definition religious is 'relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity'.
There is nothing inherent about being devoted to a truth or deity that limits thinking. Show me one thing in the actual meaning of the word that limits thinking.
As to Steve:
1 - Firstly he is speaking about organized religious sects. Perhaps, he doesn't have experience with any sects that actually encourage finding your own path(and I'm not talking just U.U.). There are many sects that teach basics, but encourage everyone to discover truth through their own spiritual journey. You can't paint every religion with such a wide brush.
2 - Again, I have to disagree that fundamentally, considering yourself a Christian does nothing to limit your field of thinking. I'm a Christian, but I also believe that Mohammed was an inspired prophet of God, and that many other religions are true and sent to us from the same source. According to Steve, my way of thinking is impossible, yet it exists. Again, wide strokes and generalization don't normally work.
3 - Wow, I didn't realize people thought of every religion in the world as all being the same... you really shouldn't respect the view of someone who pretends to know the motivations behind every religious group in the world, even those he's never heard of or learned about. I'll give you something that a leader of one church said. It went along the lines of 'I don't want you to do these things because I said so. I want you to listen and ponder, then go to God in prayer, and ask him if you should do these things.'. Sounds awfully dominating doesn't it?
4 - Again, broad generalizations about religion based off Steve's opinion that (I'm guessing the bible) one book is garbage, and all religious ceremony is a waste of time, and takes up the majority of one's life. I would argue that most religions teach that every second of your life counts. What you do counts. They teach us to try and be better people. In that sense, every second of my life is spent practicing religion... what a waste!(that was sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell).
5 - Supporting 'enslavement' is only true if it really is enslavement. The author again puts his opinions as simple fact, and paints every religion as the same. I know of religions where the spiritual leaders don't take compensation in any form, just as the Apostles of the NT didn't take purse or scrip. He then puts forward an example of a molester, meaning that every religious leader in every religion is a horrible person. Wow.
6 - Every point, I hope you see by now, is grossly overgeneralized. The majority of religion teaching has nothing to do with controlling power. There are those who abuse religious organization, but Steve continually says things like 'non-believers are taught to not be trusted'... I would like to see him back these claims up with official stances/teachings on the subjects by a myriad of different churches(10+ churches, not all Christian). Even for churches that do encourage same-faith marriage, asserting that they do so to maintain power is narrow-minded. I believe same-faith marriage is good, and the most important reason to me is for stability in moral development for children.
7 - Again, a generalized point that doesn't apply to all religions... mostly this is just for some 'mainstream Christian' groups. Even then, his points only stand if the idea of 'religious teachings = false' is taken to be true. You can't prove an idea based off an opinion. The thought is ridiculous. I would have much more respect for Steve if he voiced his opinion on why religion can't be true, rather than saying things like 'all religious people are idiots or hypocrites'. Who can respect someone who talks like that?
8 - Steve makes an assumption that the reader is practicing the religion he was born into. He also assumes that's a bad thing. He closes with the idea that religious belief and maturity are mutually exclusive goals. I'm getting tired of reading such broad generalization meant to disprove all religion. I would ask, have you tried to be a better person and a better member of society because of your religious beliefs? Even if those beliefs aren't in a diety? I think all religion is much more similar than many believe if you break it down into the simplest concepts. It's more a kind of 'we all agree that good is better than evil and we want to be good, we just disagree on how best to do that' kind of thing.
9 - 'Religious people are the least compassionate people on earth.' I'm sorry, I have to disagree. I believe there are good people in every religion and outside the scope of religion. Having spent much of my life living in different areas, among different groups, and different cultures, I can say that in my experience, most religious people are good folk who are just trying to get by and be good people. Again, Steve tries to prove things by presenting opinions as fact. 'Religion is bad because religious people are bad, and religious people are bad because religion is bad'. It doesn't work that way.
10 - Apparently Steve has a limited set of interaction with Christian teachings. Humble is defined by Merriam Webster as 'not proud... not arrogant'. Proud is meant in the sense of 'having excessive self-esteem', or thinking you are better than others because of your beliefs... wait... didn't Steve say earlier that religion teaches people that they are right and others are wrong? My brand of religion teaches that we are all equal, no matter our beliefs. Meek means you endure difficulty patiently... we have trials to grow. We have obstacles so we can learn things like compassion.
This article is so narrow minded, it's difficult to take seriously.
LOL! Of course you can't take it seriously, it's talking about you.
There is an interesting comparison between you and me. Look at my counter to the points in the article you posted. I posted thoughts and ideas countering those you provided as evidence of your point.
You respond by laughing at me.
It's pretty clear who is here for discussion and who isn't.
Show him a little leg...He'll take you seriously then.
So true, Oh Troubled Mind. I loved Steve's article. It puts into words so much of what I have come to accept and understand. (Not that I would now put Steve up on another pedestal and encourage others to agree or support him. He can stand on his own two feet and I am sure he would be open to expanding his knowledge/awareness.)
Quite apart from the "religions" of the world, I feel that each of the more enlightened humans (Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, for example) were pointing to one place where conflict can be resolved: i.e., within the mind of each individual, ONCE THE MIND HAS BEEN OPENED and able to be more fully aware.
For many religious persons the mind is more or less closed. This is what Steve is pointing to in his article.
I suggest that those in this forum who are unable to accept any or all of Steve's writing are themselves closed off from any further self-enlightenment.
If that person called Jesus were alive today he would be quite understanding of the human frailty and ignorance.... he confronted the same in his day too.
I agree with you here.
You really support:
Spirituality for dummies - All members of religions are automatically stupid.
Loss of spiritual depth perception - Religion forces you to deny any new idea.
Engineered obedience training - See my earlier post, not all teach the same.
Toilet-bowl time management - Even though religion is applicable in everyday life.
Support your local pedophile - All dollars that go to religion support pedophiles.
Incest is best - The entire human race is related, so procreation supports incest.
Idiocy or hypocrisy - Nice argument, people you discuss with are dumb or liars.
Inherited falsehood - What about those who aren't still in their birth religion?
Compassion in chains - Learning about compassion means you can't be compassionate.
Faith is fear - Even though the main message of much scripture is love.
I love how your type comes up with a response that completely ignores everything and puts down the intelligence and maturity of who you are responding to without actually doing anything resembling discussion, argument, debate, or even logical reasoning. Instead of saying I think it's stupid because it's about me(which it isn't), why don't you actually talk about the content?
If you don't believe the fact that it's not about me...
1 - Every test I've taken put me in the 95th percentile. I'm no dummy.
2 - Had I not been born into religion, I wouldn't have been introduced to all the religions I have been. Had that not happened, I wouldn't have opened up my way of thinking to include more than what I was taught as a child. So... religion opened my thinking... 100% opposite of what steve said.
3 - My religious leaders while I was growing up encouraged me to think about the teachings of scripture and prophets, and decide between me and God what I believe. Very different from forced obedience.
4 - I believe the pursuit of truth and happiness is what life is all about. I apply science and religion in my everyday life, to be the best father, husband, brother, and friend I can be. I would say any time that isn't spent in pursuit of bettering yourself is a waste.
5 - Really, this is a ridiculous reason to bash all religion. The clergy of my youth religion didn't take any compensation for the work they did. All donations went 100% to helping people who were less fortunate. I mean 100%. Nobody took 35% for administrative reasons.
6 - Obviously you are hurting the human race unless you breed inter racially.
7 - Steve says this because it allows him to discredit any argument from a 'religionist'. Unfortunately, it's not based on anything solid. It's based on the "fact" that religions are false, so you have to be dumb or a liar.
8 - Inherited Falshood, I don't practice my birth religion... so what does that mean for me?
9 - Compassion in chains... if you want to learn compassion, spend some time with people who aren't as well off as yourself. I've been on both ends in my life, giving and receiving. My heart breaks for those who are struggling physically, emotionally, spiritually, or financially. I'm intimately familiar with near-death in all those areas.
10 - Faith is love. God is love. Maybe not in some religions, but you can't say all religions preach fear, it's simply not true.
Of course, jonny and earnest will reply to this with something like 'lol, you always talk about the same things, you're all alike', instead of trying to discuss, or heaven forbid, debate specific points.
I'm looking forward to it
You were lead to believe a god existed to begin with. Which apparently, you've not broken free from as of yet. Thus, you were fed someone's beliefs from childhood. In other words, indoctrination.
I know, I went through it also and finally broke free from the delusional state of mind that comes from religion.
Obedience cannot ever be forced, considering you have a human will.
Thank you for a specific reply, I appreciate it.
Yes, everyone is taught from birth, but you would need to understand that for me to ever question the religion I was raised in includes questioning God as well. Just because I still believe doesn't mean I only believe because of what I was taught... if you make that argument then I would still have to be in my birth religion.
As for a delusional state of mind... maybe that's how you felt about yourself, but that's not how I feel about myself. Let's say you knew I had seen, touched, and spoken to God, and knew that He was real? Would I still be delusional?
What if I had a different experience, which was no less real than that, and proved the existence of God to me personally? Of course you can say I'm delusional, but only by making assumptions.
No. The questioning should be the source you heard about it from to begin with, which is the individual(s) who lead you to believe it in the first place. There would be no rhyme or reason for you to attempt to question the god itself.
I've no clue what religion you follow. There are hundreds of them that speak about a god in some form or another, so you're going to have to clue me in on what religion you would be following? If you don't mind.
I'm sure you don't. And, that's not how I felt at the time either. Only after breaking free from it, did I realize what it was.
Your above statement is irrational. Playing the let's say game isn't going to cut the mustard in the forums. Because, should make the claim to have seen, touched and/or spoken to a god and then claim it was in fact real? Then, I would have told you to have yourself check into the local asylum. Because, I knew you're out of your mind.
Just answered this above.
Actually what you're talking about is simply your attributing something you actually cannot explain to a god.
Attributing something you cannot explain to something else is an assumption? Isn't it?
Of course there is reason. If you are led to question a teacher, wouldn't you be led to question all of that teacher's teachings? It's a natural path. I have questioned both in my lifetime.
I prefer not to tell people my denomination. They usually make a myriad of false assumptions about me if I do. The point is, I did question my religion and my entire faith, but I still believe in God. Not because of indoctrination. Because of my experiences and personal thoughts.
But that's no reason to say that I am delusional and I only don't know it because I am... circular reasoning can't prove itself.
I was trying to illustrate a point. Because you think I am delusional doesn't prove that I am. Thought experiments are a good way to consider situations objectively. That's exactly why the 'what if' game works to help expand people's modes of thinking.
The point is, if *you knew* I had an experience like that, I would no longer be delusional. But, you can't know either way, so you can't know if I am either way
Not quite. It would be me attributing something *you* cannot explain to God. Again, you can't prove someone else's situation by your own. There is no method to do so, that's why it's subjective. By definition, you can't prove either way.
Yes, but it is better treated as a hypothesis than an assumption. But the point is moot if I *can* explain it.
We're all headed to the same place... we've just been given different paths to get there. One day, we're all going to have a great 'catch-up' conversation.
No. I would question the teaching's the teacher is attempting to teach. It would a specific thing. I don't need to question everything the teacher teaches unless there was sufficient reason to do so.
Those who speak of delusional things usually are delusional. Pointing it out to them, because they don't know any better is human nature.
I know you were and since it was irrational based to begin with, so was the rest.
No your actions speak for you, which is the only thing I can gauge.
Understood, up to a point.
Nope. It's called "god of the gaps". When people are or don't have the ability fathom the entire thought process, it's attributed to "god". Hence, "god of the gaps".
And, I'm not trying to do so. I used the available knowledge(including experience) which I've already gain and discerned wisdom from, to assess your actions.
Wisdom isn't subjective. It's like truth, it's objective. And, not subject to someone's individual perception/perspective.
As long as you explain within reality, sure. Otherwise, it's going to still show as a delusion.
Points to note.
emrldphx, I respectfully point out that you have made many assumptions about me and my points of view. Your referral to "...your type..." departs from the intelligent conversation which you are hoping will take place in this forum. It shows your sense of superiority.
I full respect that many individual persons find solace, inspiration, etc., from their faith and zeal in their religion. Who are we to deny freedom of religion. I am not in that category. Yet rarely do I hear a person who is religious supporting my freedom of choice not to believe.
I 100% support anybody in their right to believe in any God or none. Not all Christians demand or even want all other people to be Christian. It is the right choice for me, but that doesn't mean it is the right choice for everyone else.
I apologize, let me explain what I meant by 'your type'. I meant the type who, in response to a logical set of points, respond with joking and dismissing. I wrote what I believed to be wrong with Steve's article, and two people responded in kind in a belittling manner. That's what I meant by your type.
If you aren't that type, then I apologize, but that's what you did.
I appreciate your comment about freedom of choice, and I am one who fully supports your freedom as well. As I've said elsewhere, to me the important thing is the pursuit of truth and self-improvement.
Thank you everyone who supports freedom of choice... let's all show it in reality.
Christians, we can admire your zeal and commitment. But please leave me off any program of evangelism. I, like several others here in the forum, have been there, done that....
You may well ask why I am here in the forum... love a discussion, and love getting heated about a topic. But we can all be respectful and friendly at the end of the argument/discussion.
earnest...what denomination were you?
Ernestshub, consider two people standing in front of a mirror. There are two corresponding images in the mirror.
People arguing as to whether a god exists, what is real, etc., equates, in my way of thinking, to those two images arguing between themselves which one is real.
Hope my logic is not too way
What if... we had a wise Eternal Parent, who put us here and gave a different set of rules to different groups of people, so we could learn to love each other, understand each other, and 'play nice' even though we have differences?
I guess I didn't make it clear enough, it's late. I think the real Christians are those who try to live their lives, as best they can, according to the truths they have taught to them. That includes those who strive to be good through Christ, Allah, Quetzalcoatl, or any other power, force, or supreme being. Everything that is good comes from one source, and in the end, those who seek it will find it.
Notice how that has failed miserably these past many centuries?
Not really, no. I didn't say the goal was peace between nations. The goal is for each person individually. There are things that can't be learned without adversity, and I'm glad we have it so I can learn those things.
Have a look at history, it is full of such failures.
That has failed miserably, too.
Why? People can learn anything without having to experience adversity. That makes no sense.
I don't consider the human race a failure, by any means. As individuals, we all have the ability to learn and grow. You say it has failed miserably, but I say it has worked brilliantly.
People can't learn everything without diversity. If you never felt pain, you would never be able to appreciate being pain free. If you never felt sadness, you would never be able to appreciate happiness. The only way to truly understand, and appreciate, anything good, is to also understand the opposite.
I don't find it unusual in any way that I don't believe in other people's version of an invisible fairy.
I am not one of those special people who's fairy is gonna make rules for others to obey.
There is no real Christian; they are all Catholics, protestants etc, etc and ects; 32000+ denominations of them.
All religion is human artifact. None of it is 'the real deal'
Everyone has a piece of the elephant. If we keep talking to each other, we'll find our way home.
Twice in the New Testament Paul told the Church to speak the same thing. There is only one true way. 1 Corinthians 1:10 says "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
Philippians 3:16 says "Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing."
Ephesians 4:5 adds "One Lord, one faith, one baptism."
The Bible tells us how to know which Christian body reflects what the Bible teaches.
Twice in Revelation, the last book of the Bible, we are told that the commandments are the main identifying mark of God's people:
Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
Revelation 22:14 adds "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
Eze. 20:20 says that the Sabbath (the 4th commandment)is a sign between God and His people and Isa.66:22,23 adds that even in Heaven this Sabbath will be kept. When we put these bits of information together it is not hard to see which group does all of the above. Most Christian groups say they love Jesus but are not interested in doing what Jesus says. They call that legalism. However Jesus said:
John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." In Luke 6:46 Jesus asked "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" These are things for professed Christians to think about seriously.
I said I was going to book off this Forum because. . .well, if you care to know,
you can read my post pf a few days ago.
But I must return to ask a simple question: what IS IT about Earnest that galvanizes and enrages many Believers to the point of spluttering incoherence and pouty name-calling? Good grief!--someone actually started a Hub to determine if Earnest was really Satan! I assume that Hub was tongue-in-cheek--but a few of you have actually taken it seriously and responded accordingly! From his posts, it's clear that Earnest ain't a Believer, but it's also clear that he LOVES to put your feet to the fire, and you fall for it every time! The man is a Master Pupeteer, and he pulls your strings with great skill.
And you dance in indignation every time he twitches a finger. Brilliant.
If you read his posts with any attention at all, you'll find that sometimes he's quite serious (be careful! you might learn something!). Often as not, he's pulling your chains. C'mon folks, lighten up and have some fun. Earnest is!
I don't know, Earnest has rarely been anything but polite and sweet to me and I'm a religious type. I really don't know where everyone gets the big bad Earnest thing from.
Look, to be honest with you, I'm damn near perfect.
Seriously, we don't need to take other people's fairies seriously do we?
You and Moonfroth have exceptionally good taste.
Nah, I'll keep my faeries to myself. I do kinda like them though...
And you are damn near perfect I've said it before, if I wasn't married to the big guy I'd be all over you
I am already overwhelmed by strong women in this household, but I must like it that way.
Melissa you have know idea what twin six year old girls do to grandpas!
You remind me of my daughter Melissa, she is a strong women too.
I think she is about to hit the big time online by Xmas time, she has sold a lot of copies of her first book, but is about to follow it up with life coaching. She finishes ALL her certification as a life coach at the end of December.
Exciting times ahead when she produces her next Ebook. She got 37,000 followers for her first one.
It has taken 4 years to build her business so far, but with 5 kids, that's pretty good going. I will be flat out with the little one's till Xmas unless I take off to the US to get my back sorted. In that case it will fall to others until I return.
I tell you I'd make a move on you and you tell me I remind you of your daughter. LMAO.
Seriously, I will take that as the most extreme of all complements and I am very glad to hear about your daughter's successes. I hope you make it to the U.S. then and find some relief for your pain. If you are anywhere near WV let me know and I'll buy you a beer that would likely be called piss in Australia.
Oh yes, that you remind me of my daughter is indeed my highest praise.
If I get over there, I'll hunt around for a Vic bitter or a Fosters and buy you a beer, then we will both enjoy it.
Now why would ya travel half way across the world and drink AUSSIE beer
Try Molsens or St Pauli Girl
Ones Canadian and ones German -oops
We have more beers here than virgins! Beer from every nation. I like some of them too, but a cold VB is made by god himself.
I agree. VB is the best beer I have ever drank. And I have drank beer is just about every country in the world. I like it better than german beers and I am half german (dad's side).
I think it may be the water, but it has incredible bite and a wonderful bitterness that is perfect for my taste. I am a small drinker myself, have never been otherwise, but I love a VB on a hot day.
Like yourself I have tried many beers in many countries.
LOL, I know the downunder charm first hand. I dated an Aussie in the way back.
Outback- ohhhh the bad boys huh ?
Well I dated a real cowboy ,lmao..
Was my attempt at International relations. (back in the day)
*coughs* She was going to WVU and we dated until she went back home. I did date a very interesting Canadian guy and had a wonderful fling with a South African guy as part of my own international relations program
Lol ,well arn't you going to well prepared when your precious princess steps into the world area -
Momma when the doorbell rings
You know, while she is admittedly hot, she really isn't my type. (I'm not sure I am allowed to admit that under the lesbian/bisexual membership agreement)
She doesn't ring my bell either.
She wasnt sposed to ring any bells
play on protector thing
Yes, I got that, I just wanted to say that she doesn't seem to appeal to either sex.
LMBO, I get it now. Just for future reference, if you throw a half-naked chick in front of me, mommihood isn't the first thing that springs to mind.
Besides, Daddy has got the protector thing covered. He works-and I shit you not-for the NRA. (We don't discuss politics...ever)
I got rid of my guns when I moved to the city as a young man. The opposite seems to happen in America. Move to the city, get another gun.
I got a 12 gauge Harrington & Richardson shotgun for my 11th birthday. I used to love guns. We even packed our own ammo in the bush.
Ok (takes note) Is that spicy ,regular or mixed m'aam -hehe
Good for L's daddy, he wont be any worse than mine.
Remember that old song "Wolverton Mountain"
It was written about my dad!
A neighbour said one day "Dont you think youre being a little too controlling Mr T, and he unashamedly said ,No-Hell Noooo...
Now ,kids are dating at 12 -wt?
I can guarantee you I have had my share of fun with earnest so far.
That being said, I would actually love to have a serious debate with him, but he has me pegged already... apparently.
You contradict yourself here. Your not trying to judge my situation based off your own experiences, but you assess my actions, based off your experience and knowledge. Either you are or you arent.
You call it God of the gaps, but how do you know I don't understand the cause? You have no way of knowing. You *have* to understand the difference between objective knowledge and subjective knowledge to be able to start to understand others.
The thought experiment is the closest thing to an objective experiment of subjective knowledge I can bring you to. If you don't understand why the thought experiment is important, then you are unwilling to step outside your own world model.
What actions? You can judge my words, but thinking I am delusional is a bit of an arrogant stance to take.
It wasn't irrational. You just weren't willing to do the experiment. In fact, it was the *closest* thing we can get to objective rationality in this kind of discussion.
How do you measure it? How do you test it? How do you compare 'wisdom' and 'common sense' that is different among different cultures and religions. Maybe you should follow some more of Steve's advice and open yourself up to different ways of thinking.
If you can't measure and observe it, it's subjective.
Define reality... objectively. Becuase objectivity is so important to you, show me the whole of objective reality.
You can't. If you think you can, you have set yourself up as all-knowing, and have departed from science and objectivity entirely.
Tell you what. When we're standing there talking and laughing about this, I'm going to give you a big 'ol hug
Thanks, I love the debate.
Earnest and Melissa, I appreciate your attitudes.
But again, Earnest, I would love to have a real discussion with you
I don't mind discussing anything, I just don't buy the religious nonsense simply to get along. I have more interest in reality than fantasy.
Don, have you not considered that "Satan" and "God" are metaphor for what is going on inside of any man or woman, of any nation, culture or generation?
Even the "Holy Spirit," referred to as He, is a metaphor. These terms are trying to describe an aspect of our lives which is indescribable.
Here in this forum we tend to be a little abstract and poetic, as maybe I am doing here. There are christians who cannot, or do not wish to, talk more deeply about matters. For them the "religious" aspects of their christianity are adequate to satisfy their needs in life, without intellectual discussion. No problems with that, and no critisism. For me, it's when that simplistic approach to faith and dogma is pushed as the only way of looking at things that I get annoyed. Obviously this is true for several other contributers to these posts.
When I speak of religion, I really mean christianity. There lies most of my critisism. Hindus are much more tolerant of diversity, as are Buddhists. If you, or others feel that christianity is not a religion, I suggest a little personal honesty. You are a poet, but can one translate and deciphor poetry literally?
Something else has just occurred to me, maybe a bit more constructive: religion, from Latin: religio meaning "bind, connect." So Religion could be seen as a journey to reconnecting with God. So is a "true Christian" one who seeks to reconnect with God via the medium of Jesus Christ?
This would seem to answer the original request: "Will the true Christian please stand up."
Hope this helps to re-ground the topic of discussion.
If the versions of Chrisitianity are all correct because they al follow Jesus, surely Islamic and Jewish religions are right too, since they all ask that you follow the same God, the God that Christ told you to follow.
I follow the one whose voice I know.
I am assuming others do the same.
Are they the same voice-only God knows
I like this view because every hears a different drum. And we can not really judge what some one and how some one receives that beat. It is what they accept.
Word missing ,everyone hears a different a beat.
And it is true we reply, if that is our choice. In return I think he feels the same.
I'd like to make a comment about language, primarily to Kiss and Tales, but to some others posting on this thread as well--actually , to ANY poster who feels their words have been twisted or misunderstood or subverted to someone else's agenda.
In a world of Perfect Communication, everyone would instantly understand everything that everyone else had to say. Every INTENTION, every subtle nuance of meaning would be instantly understood. Perhaps these magic transmissions would take place through direct neural transfer and absorption, or through sweat glands, or. . who knows?
What we do know is that RIGHT NOW we communicate by means of bridges built from one person to another, from one group to another, from one person to many people. We call it "language", of course, and it has evolved and re-evolved and gone through amazing transformations as it adapts to shifting cultures and changing values, becoming ever more precise and exacting as it tries to serve our needs.
It is a finely tuned instrument, Kiss and Tales, and if we use it with the care and respect it deserves, our ideas and hopes and disappointments and triumphs will be conveyed clearly to our audience, and when they respond they will be responding to YOUR program, exactly the way you want them to.
To apply all this pedantic rambling to your posts, please consider this: you and Cagsil are never going to agree on. . .let's say, a lot of stuff. . ., and you and JohnnyComeLately are not going to be buddies in the same pewr-----BUT a significant chunk of the angst and pain and stress that you go through with those two gentlemen may spring from the fact that your language, the BRIDGE of words and structure and meaning that you have asked them to cross, starts to come apart beneath their feet at the first step..
Your Bridge is so privately "Yours" that it is very difficult for others to cross over and stand beside you on a common platform of understanding. We all need that common platform of agreed upon language and meaning. When we have THAT, then we can agree or disagree with each other as adults and come to intelligent conclusions together.
I hope I haven't been presumptuous in making these remarks, but it seems to me that you have a real need to convey your ideas, and I think other Posters would like to debate with you. . .but most of the time they have to do bridge repair, rather than engage your mind. And that's a shame.
Thank you I think I understand you! Your words sound a little high in my understanding. But I am satisfied with the meaning of what i have said. And I would say it again with good grammar!what I have learned on these forums is that we are suppose to have the freedom of speech .not here doesn't apply. Not unless you think as some else . I Have never called some one out of their name to make my point view. But people seem to cross the bridge with me on this matter. Who is making a commit or view on this matter, it seems to me some one is being partail to this subject.
Debate means you can change your line of thought, the only thing I will change is my grammar. I do not have to debate on truth.
OK, Kiss and Tales--I'm glad you realize I'm trying to be supportive. Let's consider some of your responses:
1. You're satisfied with the meaning of what you said.
2. You'd say it again, but with better grammar.
3. There's no freedom of speech in these forums.
4. Debate means a person might change their opinion, and you are NOT going to do that, so you won't debate.
First of all, may I compliment you? The two posts above are the clearest and best-written I've ever. seen from you. So you've just proven you can write much better English. And if you write better English, people will understand you better.
Going now to the specific points above:
1. If the WAY you have said something is unclear or misunderstood by the reader, how could you be "satisfied" with it? The only reason we write publicly (that is, we let other people read our stuff) is to express the views and opinions and ideas we have inside ourselves so that other people can "see" them. If we did not do this, we would be writing only to OURSELVES. And that seems sort of pointless, doesn't it? I mean, if I know what I believe, why would I write what I believe to MYSELF?
2. If I stick to what I believe, but say it in better GRAMMAR, what has happened? Now I'm actively trying to build a better bridge for my reader, by using materials that she/he understands. Now we're SHARING the fact that words are different and have different MEANINGS. For example, the language of "I wish to use the bathroom" does not mean the same thing as "I gotta use the crapper"--even though the words indicate the same action. Listeners will respond to those two statements in dramatically different ways, so what they have heard does NOT mean "the same thing".
So when you write hastily and without any thought for grammar, then later write what you think is the same thing, but now in "good" grammar, you are NOT "writing the same thing" at all.--because now the reader understands the "good" grammar, but before she/he could only guess at the bad grammar.
And whether you agree or disagree with other posters in this forum, I'm sure you would want your views to be fully and clearly understood. Closer attention to your writing makes that all possible and FORCES people who disagree with you to wrestle with your mind and your ideas, not your grammar and vocabulary.
3) No freedom of speech in this forum. Here I disagree with you. As long as a poster avoids obscenity, indecency, and direct nasty personal attacks, I think we're all able to say whatever we like on HubPages. Again (I sound like a broken record), I really think that a great deal of the vigorous disagreement that you've had to deal with, springs as much from the WAY in which you express yourself, as it does from what you say.
4) DEBATE might lead to changing one's opinion, so since you are not going to change your opinion, you won't debate. This position, I would suggest, you really need to think about. What do you say to this statement: the strength of a belief lies in its ability to withstand attack. In other words, if you are a devoted Republican you should be able to RESPOND to a devoted Democrat who tries to convince you your views are wrong. The tool you would use in this kind of contest would be--you know what's coming--language! Effective, appropriate words that carry your thoughts and ideas as precisely as possible, and, because those words are so effective, can force your reader to go. . ".hmmm! Damn! she's got me! I've got to think about this." At the other end of the stick, the person you're debating may force YOU to re-examine your line of thought. That does not mean change or reject it, just re-examine it--and perhaps come to a deeper and more significant understanding, and all that because your "opponent" challenged you.
You proved in your last two posts that you can write a lot more clearly than you have chosen to in previous work. I think you've probably got a lot of interesting, firmly-held ideas and beliefs. If you develop a new respect for the WAY you write, then WHAT you write is going to make others treat your posts with the respect they should earn. Go git em. . . !
Before people knew anything about kiss and tale the wheels where in motion of the subject that I posted on. There are others who have very good grammar and still get the same treatment. So I can see the problem is not the problem of i have been away the forums not making a view point just looking in and attacks are the same i guess you look the other way , when it comes to them , and you have lost my interest in your view in me because i believe in fairness , you consel me on rather people will listen to what i say . You see they did understand me because how they reply back .thats why they attack . its point of truth. That makes it easy to reject . And I don't speak my view to be accepted by anyone. I rather speak truth and be hated, why because the one who gave us life is worth dying for, there is no value in pleasing a man, when he does not recognized who caused his existence. So we can not debate. There is really nothing in common when two are satisfied with there choice I am. are you a proof reader for hubs or are here to throw stones.if so I'm not the one.
A dyed-in-the-wool, born-again, closed-off thought process, Kiss and Tales. Moonfroth has offered you so much respect, plus the benefit of his years of experience and wisdom. He is not always right, but that does not matter at all. Debate and discussion rise about the need to be proven right or wrong. It's the freedom of expression, (isn't that in the First Amendment for you in the U.S. of A.?) which is paramount.
So sad for me, that you are beyond opening up to "outide of the square." Ok, so if you finally get "up there, in Heaven," and don't find "He" is there to greet you, won't you feel a fool? A life, the only life which you say your God has given you, for just one full term, and there is no second chance. You will "never walk this way again," but you squandered it.
Do you suppose your maker will be pleased with you? So much opportunity lost for so little gain?
You don't have to denounce your beliefs at all, not for me, for moonfroth or anyone else. Just open up to Infinite possibilities. That is all.
This letter presumably will be met with the steriotyped response. Ah, well!
Your last two lines are probably quite true. It's rather sad that many who purport to understand and take abiding comfort from their belief structure, have so little faith in its strength. I speak of those who are adamant in their refusal to look at or even think about any aspect of their faith. It simply IS, and that's the end of the matter. To even start THINKING about their faith might introduce a thread of speculation or--the mind reels!--doubt.
Socrates said, "The unexamined human life is not worth living". It is entirely possible to believe in God and/or Jesus Christ WHILE engaging in a critical and uncompromising personal study of the parameters of your belief. A couple of Popes did it. St. Augustine did it. Thomas Aquinas did it. Martin Luther did it. John Donne (Dean of St. Paul's Cathedral) did it And at the end of the day, every one of them deepened their faith to profound depths that would have been unattainable had they been content with unquestioning faith.
At the other end of the scale are people who have rejected religion all together, turned against a particular Church, declared themselves to be Agnostics or, in many cases, embraced outright Atheism. I'm sure that many Believers would regard involvement with such destructive people as a kind of betrayal of their faith. Believers who wish to erase such people from their lives will be pleased at the partial list I've prepared below. The downside of the list is that avoiding these people and their work will severely alter your reading habits, TV viewing, and movie attendance--never mind your children's entertainment choices--for the rest of your lives.
Here's the PARTIAL list of challenging or failed Christians and declared Atheists:
Thomas Hobbes, Voltaire, Benjamin Franklin, Goethe, Napoleon, Shelley, Darwin, Abraham Lincoln, Walt Whitman, Mark Twain, Thomqs Edison, Freud, George Bernard Shaw, Madame Curie, Frqnk Lloyd Wright, Bertrand Russell, Einstein, DH Lawrence, Irving Berlin, Alfred Hitchcock, Charlie Chaplin, Charles Laughton, Walt Disney, Howard Hughes, Katherine Hepburn, Gene Kelly, Isaac Asimov, Charles Schultz (Peanuts writer/cartoonist)
moonfroth, it is so true about the questioning and the sometimes resulting deepening of faith in God. I came into this forum a couple of weeks ago and made a few posts, but...this has turned into a three-ring circus that is like fools with no brains trying to "brainstorm!" Good luck! I'm out of here and hope this asylum dies out!
Always, in all ways, to God the honor and glory!
Who said I was not happy with my square? Call it what you will, it you and others are not happy with my square.I don't need to think like you for my happiness
Before I even new about hub forum I am a100% satisfied,
You debate to break the spirit of truth for your own reasons. I don't have to know why!but it. Creeps out from anyone of you.
what it is that caused your choice. That's your free will.
But mine I will die with,in my so call square!
I rest my case! lol!
Always, in all ways, to God the honor and glory!
Blessed, it's very unlikely (let's say, not even on the radar) that you and I would ever see eye-t-eye on matters religious, but YOUR kind of faith I can respect, because it provides the comfort you need while keeping your mind alive!
Don't leave. I did, but I came back. My dog said he was tired of talking to me; besides, I realized that if people like you and me and johnnycomelately and earnest et al actually LEAVE these "discusions", the knee-jerk believers will end up looking in mirrors and talking to themselves. Too scary.
Moonfroth, these past 9 days have been a bit empty and non-surprising here in the Hub. I have been very busy in the area of alternative technology and ecology, so did find lots of useful things to do.
Just to T off on another swing at conventional thinking, your point about "...looking in mirrors and talking to themselves..." is a reminder about this rather funny analogy (can't remember if I have quoted it elsewhere): two images, side-by-side, totally dependent on the "real" persons looking into the mirror, are arguing with each other as to which image is real.
For me this is a bit like individuals of different religious/faith/philososphical backgrounds, arguing which belief is fact.
I contend that if one needs to believe, it is because the facts are not known. If you know the irrefutable fact, then belief is not needed.
I like this Ernest. Great contribution to this Hub. Sorry to disappoint you though... you never, ever get a christist to change his/her mind on what he/she believes.
Many of them are so wrapped up in their trying to justify those beliefs, and once they have declared their beliefs one way, it would be embarrassing to admit to a change of mind.
For me, an open mind is better... admittedly I don't always display a totally equanimous heart, sorry about that.
Please tell me the alarming news I'm reading about Earnest's death is some kind of metaphor. If you--or anyone else--could comment immediately, I'd be very grateful
moonfroth, unfortunately, the news of Ernest's passing is no metaphor. He did indeed pass away peacefully on 10/27/11. He was much loved by many here and there will be an HP blog tribute to him on Friday.
Thank you. I'm deeply saddened. Earnest and I never met, but I feel like I've lost a member of my family. I will certainly be online for his Memorial. We've lost a great voice.
Agreed. Ernest and I had vastly differing opinion on some of life's fundamentals, but he was a true gentleman and was always respectful, loving, and kind in every conversation we ever had. I enjoyed many a late U.S. night passing time with him in the forums.
Sorry everyone for not replying to this soon, I have been away for 10 days. So sorry to hear this sad news. We will all miss Ernest's no-nonsense posts to this forum. I hope we can continue to share deeper understandings/opinions in honour of the part Ernest has played in the past.
Personally, I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon). To simplify, I think all Christians can agree on the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) for the most part. But we differ on Paul on his teachings. Many focus on certain scripture and dismiss the rest of it. My church/religion helps clarify Christ's teachings. To simplify my faith, it boils down to salvation and accountability. For those of my faith, salvation is a process and not a one-time event. As taught in the book of Revelation, we will be judged by our works. We should try to be our best every day instead of having salvation be in a moment. So we will be judged and we will be accountable for how we have lived. If it doesn't matter how we live, why are we here? If we just need to get saved, are we just here to share the gospel with others? How many have the motivation to do good if it is not expected?
Just curious, but how do you get around John 3:16, which is very plain and simple, and does not require a "good" lifestyle?
As far as why we are here, that would be God's purpose, which we are not privy to. We don't know why he wants us with him. Company, maybe, or food source - we don't know. Perhaps we are to be the entertainers, the fools in the Kingdom of Heaven.
No need to go around it. If we believe in Christ, wouldn't we follow Him? Isn't that what he would want? If we believe in a seat belt, we need to use it. Not just believe in it. If we believe in it and don't use it, it doesn't do us any good if we get in a car accident.
And yet millions of people express a belief in Christ and do things on a regular basis that run against his teachings. There is also the not so small matter that everyone interprets scripture differently, and decides for themselves what God really wants.
But that simply avoids the question: biblical scripture is very, very clear that the only thing necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven is belief in Christ. You claim actions are necessary as well - something in direct contradiction with scripture.
Wilderness, If we believe in Christ will we not put his teachings before Paul's and the other disciples who wrote? When we read the Gospels don't we find Christ saying to forsake everything (Matthew 6:24-34, 8:19-22, 19:29, 28:19-20 & John 3:8 for examples) so if we believe the Christ wouldn't we be doing those things?
Apparently not, for precious few do and yet claim belief. It's easy to say we would, but real life experience says otherwise.
Yes, wilderness, we all fall short of the glory of God. If all one wants to do is believe in Christ and know that we are a sinner, we can be saved. But James chapter 2 teaches Faith workout works is dead and Revelation chapter 20 teaches we will be judged by our works.
I see most Christian churches, the Mormons, Scientology and other religions to be examples of the Laodiceans of the Bible's Revelation 3:17-18s Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. To me that is what the the building that the Rod of Iron in 1 Nephi 8 is attempting to save us from. The tree is the same as the Tree of Life in Genesis 3:24.
Good grief! In my mail a 'notification' of two posts on this ancient Hub--I think it's been 8 YEARS since I last posted here. Whoof? Is jonnycomelately or Parrster reading this? You guys still on this side of The Veil? How about Diogenes? I feel like I'm at a Class Reunion!
I see the grand debate has advanced about one nano-inch from the starting line since we all rolled our eyes, threw our hands in the air, and veered down a side road to other things. Just in passing, is not the Tree of Life also referred to as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Had Adam and Eve been given the opportunity to really ABSORB this new knowledge, might they not therein have 'solved the mystery' of why they were there? Would they have then risen to sit in God's glory with Him? But, since God by definition knows ALL things future, He would have known they'd fail, so that wasn't going to happen.
Well, it's good times to kick this stuff around for awhile. If any of the Old Hands are reading this, please book in.
Tree of Life is different than the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.
You are correct, Mark, the tree of life is revealed in 1 Nephi 8 of the Book of Mormons.
First, Mooner, look at Genesis 1:14s Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years together with Ecclesiastes 1:9s The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun suggesting there has never been a beginning, only a new beginning. Now look at the differences between the two creations. The first had everything created before man of both genders, them while the second had only a dry earth before a man was made and divided to produce the second gender after the seven thousand year days.
That's suggesting Genesis 1's beginning is the transition from evening (time preceding, Rev. 21s evening civilization) to morning (time of light) of civilizations' day. That means Adam was the first glimpse of sun, Even little more, exiting the garden even more and finally children born to them and remained with them the full sunrise of civilization. The evidence is in Rev. 1711s the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition with goeth into perdition meaning it will be removed for existence until its time of the next cycle. Then look at Revelation 6:9-11 where the dead in Christ or 5 (% of civilization) foolish virgins of the last cycle (Rev. 14:13) are waiting to be reincarnated by the 5 wise virgins (Rev. 20:4-5) and together they to replenishes earth for chapters 21's civilization over 6 more millenniums. During the 7th millennium they will be raptured one at a time (Mat. 20:1-13) to leave only the Alpha and Omega to produce the new civilization.
So, Mooner, God does know all thing past and future and had already provided for the redemption of those destined to everlasting life when their time comes.
Natureboy -- THANK YOU for an intelligent, detailed, well-referenced post. I don't have time right now to give it the attention it richly deserves, but I will. Posts on these contentious issues between Believers and Sceptics are too often blanket affirmations or hysterical rants--from BOTH sides of the issue. It is refreshing indeed to read a post like yours that asserts your belief from a foundation of text and reasoned presentation of text. At this early stage, it doesn't matter whether one or the other of us 'prevails' in the larger argument, what matters is the intellectual quality of your post.
I will be looking for it, Mooner. PEACE
NatureBoy--(I must express my admiration of your nom-de-plume or avatar or whatever you want to call it. You create a new word, capitalizing both fused words in the new one. . .but put up a photo, presumably of you, showing that you are old like me. So you have a sense of the sardonic, a delight in incongruity, and a sense of humour. However strenuously I might disagree, I want to LISTEN to such a man!).
My father was not a talkative man, but as I crept up on that late teenage plateau where I could actually glue TWO ideas together and fumble towards a conclusion, he would occasionally have a 'chat' with me. It astonished me how much wiser he was when I was 24 than when I was 14. . . but I digress. He said a few things that have stuck to me like shit to a blanket, and the analogy is for its graphic quality only: "Don't pay any attention to the terms of an argument until you've scrutinized its core premise". And I just don't know how we get around that one, NatureBoy. The argument you presented above rests on two premises: 1] God as an entity of some divine nature we cannot comprehend, EXISTS, and the Bible, one way or another, through whose penmanship or agency (and there's a lot of them), is the Direct Word of God. The truth of the words in the Bible are utterly unassailable because they come from God Himself. the fact that men cannot understand huge chunks of it has everything to do with the limitations of men, nothing to do with God and his truth. "God moves in mysterious ways/His wonders to perform"--often presented to me by Believers as a quote from the Bible (you know, of course' it's the opening of a hymn written by Wm Cowper in the late 18th-century).
So we have a big problem going in. Your argument begins on a platform of Faith, and if you and I go at it for 50,000 words, you will end on a platform of Faith. You have no choice. In the absence of any kind of evidence, you have no choice. Were you arguing with a fellow Believer re the efficacy of certain texts vis a vis Adam and Eve, free will, and the forbidden tree, you would BOTH be 'in the zone' and a significant discussion could take place. When I was a lad in the RCAF, I remember an instructor slapping a 3" thick Manual on a desk and saying "everything you ever wanted to know about the CF-100 fighter-interceptor is within the covers of this Manual." And Heaven help the student who challenged that statement.
So how can a Believer and Non-Believer possibly proceed? I reject the Bible as Manual. And I reject the God you put forward as the origin and ultimate arbiter of Truth. I respect YOU for your openness and willingness to discuss your Faith.
But I reject the Faith itself.
Mooner, I see we both were Air Force mechanics, you the RCAF and me USAF who did 2 years in Vietnam. I worked on F100s, F101s, F102s, F105s, F106s, F4s and two trainer type plane during my 5 years, I know about those Manuals.
As far as I can remember I've wanted to know the why's and how's of everything, including why man doesn't live like the other animals, even said I want to be as freed as a deer. I was raised by a devout christian mother and her preacher uncle so the Bible was forced on me to my appreciation because it was a puzzle I wanted to solve. Looking realistically at the Genesis story it didn't make sense so my curious nature kept reading it seeking answers. Before what I call my Conception and Birth I discovered other books with similar stories of some Fairytale land that suggested cycles like the word replenish in Genesis, so I began looking for one. The contradictions in it didn't didn't fit with the taught concept of god so that intrigued me to find answers.
I discovered Faith is the process of finding substance and evidence to prove beliefs and my life experiences provided me with enough to suggest the probability of the Bible being a guide to understanding life. (Click on the house on my profile for my website and the section called The Book Of Elijah: A Letter To The World is my life story, you will see I have been an explorer analyzer of the purpose for things.) I use the term God and the like primarily to reveal I am referring to an unknown entity.
I have 50 post here showing my reasonings to my conclusions, I believe the logic of them may help you break down the barrier that have prevented your being able to reason upon the same conclusions. The only way a believer and non believer can proceed is for them both to be objective and one or both have to have something that attracts the other. Your mind has attracted my attention and it appears mine has you so we can talk here, on my posts or email and see how it goes.
You opened a big door more than a crack when you said, "I use the term God and the like primarily to reveal I am referring to an unknown entity."
It's late and I must get some sleep, but I'll be back
Anyone know C.S. Lewis?
I just come across his Christian books, it is so amazing.
I love Mere Christianity. I also like the Screwtape Letters. I love the symbolism in the Narnia series.
A great read as are all of his books. Deeply thought-provoking and love the processing for which he guides one through. Going from an atheist perspective to profound believe and teacher.
yeah, I read Mere Christianity, Screwtape Letters, Narnia series not yet.
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