Anyone can get into heaven

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  1. janesix profile image61
    janesixposted 12 years ago

    Christians,doesnt that bother you?even a little?how many Ted Bundys do you think are "saved"?

    Do you care who your neighbors are going to be for all Eternity?

    1. Paul Wingert profile image61
      Paul Wingertposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Isn't that the whole point of Christianity? All one has to do is accept Jesus and in exchange gets a pass into heaven regarless if the person has been bad or good!

    2. Shadesbreath profile image76
      Shadesbreathposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Normally I'm pretty quick to mock conspicuously stupid magical stories, but I have to say, in this instance, why would you bag on the idea of forgiveness?

      We're all a-holes on some level or another. The only thing that makes you or me better than an axe murderer is that our society hasn't gone out of its way to make a big deal out of how many deaths speeding drivers cause or what the net impact of not reporting sales tax to the state for what you buy on Amazon... etc. Whatever. We mostly focus on the outliers, the people who defy social convention in such flagrant ways (often due to psychological issues way out of their control) as to be unsympathetic. Like Ted Bundy. Those people are certainly easy to hate and harbor no sympathy for.

      However, since you are pretending to accommodate the belief in the afterlife with your question, then you are pretending to entertain the idea of forgiveness coming from a deity you clearly don't actually believe in, but are pretending to entertain as a notion. Which is cool. All great philosophy comes from that "what if" place.

      But, you can't pretend to accept the existence of a forgiving god and then assert that he/she should only be forgiving of "sins" that you have decided are forgivable.

      If you are going to play their game, you have to play by all the rules, not just the ones that are convenient to your opinion. Otherwise you're just doing what they do. Which makes it all meaningless. And that's sad, because there is something valuable in all of this, even if only the quest for a truth we, as a species, clearly aren't ready for yet.

      1. janesix profile image61
        janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I certainly do believe in an afterlife.

        And for the rest, i think some things ARE unforgivable.

    3. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      No, I don't care.  Why would I question God's judgement?  No reason at all.  Matter of fact, we're called to Love everyone's soul and want to see them saved.  Anyone who truly repents and obtains forgiveness from the Lord is a child of God and a brother or sister in Christ to every other Christian.
      Whoever He saves and sanctifies and welcomes into Heaven, AMEN!

      I think....the way you posed the question is a hint of a separate issue, perhaps?  If so, then I must clarify-----accepting Jesus the Christ as Lord and Savior is the only way to get to Heaven.

  2. profile image58
    augustine72posted 12 years ago

    Yes we do. And that is why we preach and in return are mocked and ridiculed.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If you don't want to be ridiculed - why preach ridiculous things?

      1. heavenbound5511 profile image64
        heavenbound5511posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Were even supposed to tell the rebellious- even if they refuse to be saved.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Yes - I know. It is not your fault. You are just doing what you are told because you cannot think for yourself.

          Thanks - you have certainly convinced me your religion is garbage. Was that your intent?

          1. heavenbound5511 profile image64
            heavenbound5511posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            That no one can make you go to God but those who do know God, that have been changed,healed,delivered because of the Love and grace of God offered and found in Jesus Christ have a heart even for those that despise the saving power and message of Jesus.
            We will love even the one's that hate and or reject the only one that can save them. Why because this too Jesus displayed when he was willing to die for us all even while we were still choosing to not serve God, love God. He loved all even the one's that killed him.
            So even if I am persecuted,attacked, or whatever for telling about the love of God it will not affect me because God has done mighty things in my life-he even stuck by me when I was strait out be disobedient. This love has no comparison to anything in this world.When you have had a true encounter with God, felt his spirit, been filled up on the inside with God's spirit nothing can or will be able to pry you away from God and his love that not even death can accomplish.

            It is because of the love of God- people are drawn to God.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I am not persecuting you or attacking you. I just told you that you had convinced me that your religion is garbage and god is not real.

              How is that persecuting you or attacking you?

              I mean - if it was possible to have a true encounter with god - why would he need people like you to go preaching this self righteous stuff?

              1. heavenbound5511 profile image64
                heavenbound5511posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I really didn't say you were persecuting me- I was saying no matter what I will go through because I share the truth that it won't change what God has done for me. This is the reason I continue to share Jesus with all-even if they don't believe-or if they strait out rebel against the notion that God loves them and want them to come to him for life,peace,deliverance,understanding,healing,forgiveness.
                That's it so don't flip what I said into something it's not. smile

                It is about God's love towards me that makes me love even those that reject such an awesome gift. I won't give up!

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Well - you have certainly convinced me that your beliefs are garbage and your god does not exist.

                  I guess that was your intention. Despite not believing this garbage, I understand I will be berated and attacked and falsely accused of rebellion, but - that is OK. People who do that are simply uneducated, scared people.

                  1. heavenbound5511 profile image64
                    heavenbound5511posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    God bless you!

                2. A Troubled Man profile image58
                  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  In other words, no matter how much conflict you cause in spreading those beliefs, no matter how much others don't want to hear them, no matter how many people you insult and annoy, you will not give up.

                  1. heavenbound5511 profile image64
                    heavenbound5511posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

    2. Jesus was a hippy profile image61
      Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      People dont mock people for trying to be a good person. They mock people for making ridiculous assertions wether they are religous or not.

  3. profile image58
    augustine72posted 12 years ago

    The question was "Do you care who your neighbors are going to be for all Eternity?"

    My answer was "Yes we do. And that is why we preach and in return are mocked and ridiculed."

    That explains why we preach in spite of being ridiculed.

  4. Eric Newland profile image59
    Eric Newlandposted 12 years ago

    This is what I believe. And in some cases, what I theorize.

    If you will equate the color white with perfection, only pure white may enter heaven. No shade of grey may enter, no matter how light it is. That is why all need redemption, even those who have for the most part lived good lives. According to Catholic doctrine only one mortal human has ever lived a sin-free life.

    Good works can not buy salvation. However, the life of a true convert should be marked by good works.

    God can not be fooled. No one can get into heaven on false contrition or lip service. Therefore, someone who sins with the intent of enjoying themselves and asking for forgiveness later will gain nothing. Unless, of course, they realize the folly of trying to lie to God and are contrite not only for their sins but the sinful attempt at deception in which they committed them.

    And salvation is only truly attained for a lifelong sinner if they ask for forgiveness out of true contrition for the harm they have done, NOT if they are, in effect, only "sorry" for themselves and where their sin has brought them and might bring them after death.

    And if it's any consolation, Catholic doctrine suggests that such people may still spend a couple of millennia in a purgatory quasi-hell before they make it to the pearly gates.

    But as for myself, I wonder if some who do not convert will still get into heaven (and here the fundamentalists will condemn me). Because the events of Jesus' life are simply information, and nearly all Christians will agree that simply believing the events in the Bible to be true will not save you.

    But I wonder--I can not say with certainty--if someone who accepts that they have done wrong, is sorry for it, and truly loves and cares for their fellow man, if they will not receive the blood of Christ even though they have never asked for it in so many words.

    Simply because Jesus said, without any doubt, that loving our neighbor is EQUAL in importance to loving God. This says to me that if you fail to do one you might as well have failed to do either, so perhaps it is also impossible to succeed at one without also doing the other. And Jesus also strongly implied that there will be people who serve God without realizing it:

    At least, I feel like I have to hold out hope that this is the case, because some "Christians" do a very efficient job of poisoning people against Christianity. I wouldn't think it fair for people to be damned for turning away from what they perceive as hypocrisy.

    Does that answer the question? What was the question again anyway?

    1. janesix profile image61
      janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Unexpected and well thought out.i liked it

    2. profile image58
      augustine72posted 12 years agoin reply to this


      If we have done something wrong to a person we have committed a sin. We are not right with God. If we accept within ourselves that we are wrong we have realized our mistake. If we go the person and reconcile with him we have set ourselves right with him. However we still have not set ourselves with God. For that we need to confess to God and then He will pardon our sins. Then is Christ's blood on us.

      If someone does not know who the true God how can he make a confession to God? And if he does not confess how will his sins be pardoned? 

      But the two are not the same command. Loving God is one (the greatest one) and loving neighbor is another one (the second greatest). The person following the second command can be seen as a good man. But what about the first?

      1. Bonitaanna profile image61
        Bonitaannaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        There are numerous people in the Bible who were murders, Moses was one of them, so was Paul, he killed Christians before he was saved.  I know it is hard to believe that even they can get into heaven. But also the Lord says," you shall know them by their fruits."  Did Ted Bundy have any fruits, or any of the saved serial killers, I don't believe so. The Lord told the people in the Bible that,  when they asked how they could tell the saved from the rest of the people.   It takes more than just believing in Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Yet, the thief on the cross was the only one who was assured he would be in heaven with Jesus!

        1. janesix profile image61
          janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Im done with this thread.

          You people can go ahead and forgive all the evil you want. I dont care.

          This is your hell.

          1. Eric Newland profile image59
            Eric Newlandposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Another note to think about: if there is some sin threshold beyond which forgiveness is impossible, then anyone who crosses it loses any further accountability for their actions.

            If a man who murders another man in cold blood can not be forgiven, he can then murder thousands of others without making his situation any worse, and he can't make his situation any better by living like a saint for the rest of his life.

            I think that's one important reason why salvation must be possible for even the most wicked of sinners. For the sake of future damage that could be prevented if they turn their lives around.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              There is a far, far simpler alternative once you dispense with the Majikal Invisible Super Being. wink

              According to your majik book - I am damned without possibility of salvation. I have committed the unforgivable sin. Strange I don't go around murdering people willy nilly isn't it?

  5. Eric Newland profile image59
    Eric Newlandposted 12 years ago

    I'm actually paraphrasing C.S. Lewis, I believe from Mere Christianity:

    "There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it.  For example a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ's birth may have been in this position."

    I would still say the only way to be certain of salvation is through conversion, but I have to hold out hope for people whose lack of traditional salvation is due largely to curcumstances beyond their control. Pagan civilizations who were isolated from anything Judeochristian for centuries, for instance--are they all in hell simply because they were born in the wrong place at the wrong time and could not hear the Word? And people who have been at the brunt of sinful actions on the part of hypocritical Christians--intolerance, torture, murder, even genocide. Are they doomed because they have, quite understandably given what they've experienced, come to associate Christianity with evil?

    For such people I can't help but hope that it is possible to confess of one's sins, ask for forgiveness, and love God even if one doesn't understand intellectually that that's what they're doing.

    Ah, but that's just the thing. Jesus doesn't rank them first and second.

    I actually decided to verify the word he uses to link the two in Matthew 22:39, variously translated as "like," "similar to," "like unto," and in the case of the New Living Translation, "equally important."

    The Greek word, hemoia, does seem to mean "like." It is used in other places to mark similes or similarities. ("The kingdom of Heaven is like a mustard seed.") It's actually a strange word choice.

    Consider also the context in which Jesus says this. The Pharisees asked him to name the greatest commandment. He named two. And he didn't say anything along the lines of, "And while we're talking about the most important commandment I might as well mention that the second most important commandment is..."

    No. He mentions a second commandment that, without qualification, IS LIKE the first. Almost as if he couldn't mention one without the other. He said that loving God IS LIKE loving your neighbor. Loving your neighbor IS LIKE loving God.

    They aren't just similar in importance. They're connected. "Is like" may not be quite strong enough to say that they are in all ways one and the same, but I feel fairly confident in saying that one must follow from the other.

    1. profile image58
      augustine72posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Really? You just have not read the scripture properly.

      Am expert in the law asks this question.

      Jesus replies

      Note -FIRST and GREAT. The word for first is "pro'-tos" which means first in place, order and importance.

      Then Jesus continues

      The word used for second is dyoo'-ter-os. Meaning is second in place and order.

      1. Eric Newland profile image59
        Eric Newlandposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Thank you for clarifying that; I certainly don't want to pretend to be a biblical scholar.

        Even so, why mention a second commandment at all when this was not what was asked of him? And why mention it using language that implies similarity or interconnectedness?

  6. Disappearinghead profile image61
    Disappearingheadposted 12 years ago

    I note that Jesus asked His Father to forgive those who were crucifying him. This would include the Romans, the Jews and Judas, anyone who contributed a part to His death. Now did God answer His prayer? Of course He did. So if God has forgiven these, who did not have to believe first in order for that forgiveness to be granted, how can God then torment them or annihilate them for sin for which he has forgiven them?

    Now if God has forgiven those who killed his son, then has he not also forgiven you for those small sins? And if you are forgiven, then how can you be tormented and annihilated for sins for which you have been forgiven?

    Jesus paid the sacrifice for all the sin of humanity, past, present and future. If that sacrifice does not cover all sin, then it was not perfect or complete. Now if all sin is covered, then how can the sin of unbelief be excluded? Are we saying that unbelief is the unforgiveable sin? If God condemns those that do not believe in this life, then his son's sacrifice was not good enough to cover the sin of unbelief.

    Once a peron appears before the Great White Throne, there will be no unbelief. Does the chance o believe cease when we die? Did Jesus put a time limit on it? Does God love you when you are alive, but hate you when you are dead? And if God loves you when you are dead, how can He torment you for eternity? Note that at the throne judgement is ACCORDING to one's works in life, not belief. Also, have a look up of all instances of Book of Life. Nowhere does the bible explicitly state how to get your name written in there. The only the only way to get blotted out is to remove content from the Book of Revelation, which is something the Church does.

    Jesus sacrifice was atonement for humanity's sin and is a parallel to the Jewish atonement sacrifices. Now here the priest would make atonement sacrifices on behalf of the people, and God forgave their sin. Were there strings attached here? Did God say that each and every Israelite had to formally, individually, come to God first in order that the atonement sacrifice made by the priest could be effective? No, it was an action made by the priest on behalf of the people, and when it was done, the forgiveness came; the people did not have to do anything. So if Jesus is our high priest who made the atonement sacrifice, then the sin is also covered for all.

    Who is the initiator of the forgiveness action? God. If my children are naughty, then once I have forgiven them, I have forgiven them, and I cannot then punish them. It is my action to them and is not dependent on them formally coming to me requesting forgiveness. So if I can forgive by my own volition, and their actions or lack or action has no effect, then am I more gracious and loving than God?

    The price is paid how can the price of a persons sin still be levied upon them?

    1. profile image58
      augustine72posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That was offense committed directly to Jesus. Secondly He prayed only for those who "did not know what they do". Those who commit sins knowingly need to ask for forgiveness. 

      It does cover all sins. If you ask for forgiveness you too get forgiveness.

      Unbelief is pardoned. If someone does not know because he has never heard of Jesus and therefore do not believe in Him it is forgiven. Some cases however are not unbelief but plain rejection of what is being told about Jesus Christ. They have no excuse.

      Jesus does not put anyone to Hell. You are given life and and are told about Jesus. You choose to accept or reject it. What you choose as long as you live remains after you die because you chose so.   

      God does not torment anybody. If you insist that He does then its you are the one who needs correction.
      Hell was not made for man. But if man chooses to go there then he is welcome.

      No it is not. 

      If you are trying to find direct sentences then no there are none that tells you how get you name in the book of life. But the concept is very much there if you study the scriptures with the help of the Holy Spirit.

      Yes. If an individual omitted a sin he needed to bring the animal from his flock for offering as a sacrifice. When it was offered his sins were forgiven not anybody elses. Each person had to have a sacrifice for forgiveness of his own sins.

      Since each person had to what is needed to the forgiveness of sins, each person has to do the needful receive forgiveness form Jesus. The sacrifice of Jesus does cover all but it is not automatic.

      Your analogy is correct. Jesus Christ has the right one for you. A son fights with his father and takes away his share from the property. He goes away. The gracious father has already forgiven him. He goes to a land and spends all he has and is now in misery. His father has everything and is also willing to give it to him but he needs to come back to the father. If he is stubborn and stays in that city he will suffer and die.

      1. Disappearinghead profile image61
        Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        You cannot form doctrine on anything but explicit statements. To claim that you can create doctrine via interpretation under "guidance of the Holy Spirit" permits license to make up anything you want. Besides the fact the Church is full of people who claim the Holy Spirit is guiding them yet tey disagree.

        So if you insist, I claim the Holy Spirit is telling me that universal salvation is the truth. There you are, instant doctrine.

        1. profile image58
          augustine72posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Okay the could your please tell me what is the meaning of Book of life then?

          1. profile image54
            Robertr04posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Hold on aug, forgiveness of sin: Matt. 12:31,32-"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be foregiven men. (32)"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. He says it again in Mark 3:28,29. Rom. 6: 23-The wages of SIN IS DEATH, not some eternal punishment in hellfire.

            spirit will not be

            1. profile image54
              Robertr04posted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Disappearinghead, you sound like someone else I met recently, once saved always saved, we have been saved by the Son's blood. You must come from under these false teachings. If you believe you are saved, ask yourself saved from what? You still die, you are still diseased stricken, you are still living in sin so what are you SAVED from? No man is saved, only those who endure until the end are saved. This is what the word says, Matt. 24:13- But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Saved and salvation are one and the same. Yahusha says only those who endure till the end, shall be saved. He did'nt say those who become Christians shall be saved. To endure until the end you must obey the Fathers Truth/Word, which are His Lawsand commandments. Obey them till the end of your earthly life or until He comes back to rescue you and those who died in His Name(1 Thess. 4:15-17) Then and only then will you be given salvation and thus be saved. And when you die, that's it. You can't improve on your lot or take away. So don't walk around with your chest stuck out or your head up in the sky cause you "ain't there" yet. Rev. 22:14- Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE Shalum

          2. Disappearinghead profile image61
            Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            The same book of life in Psalm 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

            This was David referring to his enemies, asking God to remove their names. How did they all get in there in the first place? It wasn't by believing in Jesus.

            1. jacharless profile image75
              jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              ...which is the direct reference to said Psalm in Revelation.
              Oddly, what seems to be missed in all the hype around Revelation (thank you Jack Van Impe) is the opening line of the letter and the closing line. A letter that so vividly outlines the entire removal/reversal of everything from the Adamic Inception, Mosaic System, Temple/Sacrifice and Prophets. Why people do not see this is beyond me...

            2. profile image58
              augustine72posted 12 years agoin reply to this

              That is not an answer. My question was what do you understand by "book of life"

  7. jacharless profile image75
    jacharlessposted 12 years ago

    Christianity & Judaism are pretty much emphatic: the kingdom of Heaven is with you.
    Why they insist on a far-off place called heaven, can only mean the Greco-Roman mythological concepts/traditions/practices greatly influenced the early believing.
    So getting into heaven is merely to look within.


    1. profile image54
      Robertr04posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Sorry to take up more of your time, but I almost forgot. Rev. 21:7,8-He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. (8) But the cowardly, the UNBELIEVING, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the Second Death. Rev. 20:12-15- and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened (these books have all human deeds recorded in them). And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And they were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades or Hell ( the grave) delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each according to his works (14) Then Death and Hades or Hell (you are going to throw fire into fire) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the Second Death (not eternal torment). (15) And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. I know someone is going to say, what about Gehinna (sp?)? Gehinna is an actual place located right outside of Jerusalem, where they burned their trash and the bodies of criminals and in years past where they sacrificed their children to the god Molech. When Yahusha refers to hell, He is talking symbolically. Jonah 2:1,2- Then Jonah prayed to the Father from the fish's belly. (2) And he said: I cried out to Alahym because of my affliction, and He answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol ( Hell)  I cried, and You heard my voice. Where was the hellfire? Sheol is Hebrew for grave and Hades is Greek for grave. Tataras (sp?) is Greek and is used when speaking of the place below the grave reserved for the demons, fallen angels. They are the ones He ministered to during the 3 days and 3 nights.

      1. profile image54
        Robertr04posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        It's late and I'm tired, forgive me. But we have to address the false teaching of not knowing. Lk. 12:47,48-And that servant who knew his masters will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. (48) But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much is required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask more. I'm going to leave the context reading to you. Paul tells us we shall judge angels. And we shall. Where, when? During the millinium. Read Rev. 1:7 then Rev. 19:11-21 then Rev. 20:1-6. Now you will see about those who pierced Him, satan, and all those we saw later in Rev. 20: and Rev. 21. They died (there will be billions and billions of dead bodies) and remained that way for a thousand years. When satan was loosed and they were resurrected for the Second Death. Meanwhile the saved were in Heaven ( that's part of the reward) You did'nt think the Creator would raise you up in the clouds and give you glorified bodies to bring you back down to an unclean earth did you? Where did you think you would judge the angels and all the dead. That's right, you will judge and have a say in the stripes (remember Lk. 12:47,48) of those destined for the Second Death. You will look around, and be given the opportunity to find out why your loved ones did'nt make it and prepare yourself to see their demise. The stripes will be how long they burn, according to their works. Some will be ashes in minutes (few stripes) and some ( the wicked and those who much has been given much) will burn longer. Satan will burn the longest. They say not 1 in 20 will be saved. The company will be few. So we need to go back and continue with sincerity and earnestness, the study of His Truth/Word. There will be no second chance, you have got to get it right the first time around. Satan already knows his fate, and he is trying to take as many of us as he can with him. I'm not trying to scare you(maybe frighten) but bring about an awareness. Time is short and the hort is already gone. Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself, one of the requirements, lol. Shalum

      2. Disappearinghead profile image61
        Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Matt 11:20-24. Jesus pronounces judgement upon Capernaum and chorazin because they didn't believe, and announces that it will be more bearable for Sodom et al on the day of Judgement. So the punishment is variable, therefore the fate of all is different, not black and white as many insist.

        Capernaum was condemned for unbelief after hearing Jesus ministry and seeing his miracles. The World today does not see his miracles and are not convinced by the ministry of the Church because of its hypocrisy and false teachers on TV.

        Ones salvation cannot depend of a persuasive argument of another. If the Christian is unable to put forward a sufficiently brilliant argument to the unbeliever, who's at fault? Can one be condemned for not believing a Christian who is ignorant of science and much of the bible?

        I also believe that Revelation is highly questionable as to whether it is the Word of God at all, as did many other early Church bishops. It contains much pagan astrological imagery and the Satan it portrays has nothing in common with the Satan of the Hebrew scriptures, and it's demons do not exist in the OT. Not forgetting that if the book is composed of symbolic images, how can anyone logically conclude that the lake of fire is literal when eagles and thunder cannot talk and literal ten headed dragons do not exist outside ancient mythology?

    2. Druid Dude profile image60
      Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      What Jacharless agreeance. Most christians don't even understand this. And about three days and nights. Can you count? Friday, before the sun went down to saturday morn is one night. Saturday and saturday night is the first day, second night. Sunday morning he rose....whoops, did I lose a day somewhere?

      1. profile image54
        Robertr04posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Yeah you lost  some time, because He did'nt die on Friday. Another christian belief bites the dust.

        1. profile image54
          Robertr04posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          But Head, symbolism has  literal meanings. What early church bishops? The Catholic church? Ones salvation depends on no argument. It depends on you and you alone. You and I cannot share our hoped for salvation with others. You stand at judgement alone, on the strength of what you did with your life. No one is saying there is actually going to be a lake of fire. The lake of fire constitutes the second death. Now that last part is plain and simple (death). That is something  we should'nt have a problem understanding. One of satan's best tools is a lot of people don't believe he exists. He works in subtle ways. You think he is going to stand on top of a building and shout out, this is my mark of the beast. Most know of the warning, so you would think they would dodge that bullet, of course we know better. What difference do you see in satan in the old testament and Rev.? Read Rev. 12:9. He was a liar then and he has refined his techniques, so he is a better liar now. He has the world believing in a thousand different faiths and religion and many believing in none. Do you remember Yahusha being asked, by His deciples why He spoke in parables somewhere in Mattews( come on, help me out here)? He said some were meant to be vailed because they would'nt believe the truth anyway. You can't see that going on today? Now John being one of His closest, it just might be he continued on with the vailing. What does science have to do with it? And you confess to be a christian, so you mean to tell me you joined an organization and did'nt know what they were about? Better yet, you signed on betting your LIFE, that what you are following is the truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God. I mentioned earlier that all are required to read His word for themselves. Ignorance of the law is no excuse(now you know where that came from). You're not to take the word of someone standing on the pulpit, or some guy like me saying this and that. Read it for yourself and open up your heart and mind and pray for discernment. If you seek His word with sincerity and earnestness, light will be shed. If you continue, more light wil be shed until all the truths have been revealed. The Light, the Holy Spirit, the author, who better to interpret the word? This ain't rocket science. He gave His word where a child could understand if he sought it out with his heart and soul. There was a time in history where the children actually taught the Gospel. Not saying anything negative about you. When I truly first began trying to gain more knowledge of the Father, I had many questions and He gave me answers. I still have questions, so I continue to ask and He continues to answer them. Why do you think He forbid spiritulism? You ain't talking to your dead mother, father, wife etc.(Eccles. 9:5,6- For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, they don't even have their memories. Whatever they did in their lifetimes-loving, hating, envying-is long gone, and they have no part in anything here on earth any more. Eccles 9:10-Whatever you do, do well, for in death, where you are going, there is no working or planning, or knowing, or understanding). You have reached demons, fallen angels, satan took a third of the stars with him. The battle is not of the visible world, but of the principalities of the invisible world. In Daniel 7: was he talking about four beasts that existed or was he symbolically speaking? Did he interpret Ol' Nebs. dream about a huge and powerful statue symbolically telling of things to come. But after each interpretation there was literal meaning. I read what you say and I could be mistaken, but it sounds like you and a lot of others pick and choose what you want to believe. Is that what christianity teaches? Maybe you had better take a closer look at what you are reading and what you are believing. Shalum

          1. mischeviousme profile image61
            mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            It's called a paragragh, look into it. Why do you believe what the bible says is true?

            1. profile image54
              Robertr04posted 12 years agoin reply to this

              What's called a paragraph? There were questions asked and I just gave my 2 cents. If I bored you I apologize. Normally I just read the questions and watch the fireworks. Someone trying to debate an issue with someone else who is doing his best to aggravate, but there are some who seem sincere and find reason to defend their position or maybe they want to hear another opinion or confirmation. I'm not going to get off into never ending conversation, we will just agree to disagree. You have a  right to think what you want and that's the beauty of it all. I'm not here to try and convince you of anything. OOops, I've already overstayed my allotted time. Since I know it will take at least another paragraph to answer your question, maybe I'll drop by later or just write a hub. Shalum


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