Unemployment Compensation Information for Claimants
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Unemployment Compensation--Tips for Claimants
The purpose of this document is to provide information which may be useful to individuals who have found themselves in the unfortunate situation of losing their jobs and who may be eligible for unemployment compensation. The following information is based on my experience serving on the Michigan Employment Security Board of Review (appeals) and for the past two years representing claimants in administrative law judge unemployment compensation eligibility appeal hearings. Unemployment compensation regulations throughout the U.S. are similar but vary in a number of important respects from state to state. This information is based solely on my experience in Michigan.
BACKGROUND ON STATE-FEDERAL UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION SYSTEM
Most people find themselves unemployed at some time in their life. Unemployment was not such a problem when the U.S. was an agrarian, small town society where most people had families nearby who could help out in a pinch and where people grew much of their own food. But as the country industrialized and people flocked from the farms to cities to work in factories like Henry Ford's Rouge plant which employed 100,000 at its peak, unemployment became a critical social problem. People were no longer independent farmers living on their own land and growing their own food, but instead they were far from their relatives and dependent on the success of their employer and the good will of their boss for economic security. The federal-state unemployment compensation system was established to help tide people over in periods of involuntary unemployment.
A lot of thought went into the system. It's funded by a tax on employer payrolls. The tax in most states ranges from around one percent of payroll to as high as seven or eight percent of payroll depending on the number of layoffs previously experienced by each employer. In Michigan the maximum tax rate is 10.3 % of wages up to $9,000/ year and the minimum is 0.06%, as of November 2008. This variable tax rate is called experience rating. It's designed to provide an incentive for employers to plan their business to avoid layoffs. The firms with the fewest layoffs are rewarded with having to pay the lowest unemployment compensation tax rate. And, conversely, employers whose employment fluctuates widely, such as those in cyclical industries or in seasonal industries like construction, pay the highest unemployment compensation taxes. Employers don't like to pay high taxes so the experience rating system also provides them an incentive for them to protest unemployment compensation claims filed by their employees.
Another reason underlying unemployment compensation is that it has a counter-cyclical economic effect. That is, when there is a recession and people lose their jobs involuntarily, money is pumped into the economy by unemployment compensation payments to laid off workers, helping to stabilize the national economy or that of a particular state or region.
Like Social Security, Unemployment Compensation was established during the Great Depression in the 1930s, and like Social Security, it has become accepted and, by and large, accomplishes its mission of providing income to assist unemployed workers and provide a boost to the economy during recessions.
COMMENT: If you become involuntarily unemployed you should not hesitate to apply for unemployment compensation. That's what it's for. You are entitled to collect benefits so long as your are eligible, provided you carefully follow the procedures required by the unemployment agency in your state.
DISPUTES OVER ELIGIBILITY FOR UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION ARE QUITE COMMON
However, from the point of view of unemployed workers and employers, the system is far from perfect and disputes over eligibility are common.
In general, employees who have worked long enough to establish eligibility and who are laid off by their employer are eligible for a maximum of 26 weeks of unemployment compensation at an amount less than their previous pay up to a maximum of around $400 per week (in Michigan).
Employees who quit, with certain exceptions, are not eligible.
Employees who are fired for serious misconduct are not eligible.
FOLLOWING THE PRESCRIBED PROCEDURES IS VERY IMPORTANT
Finally, to be eligible claimants must apply for benefits in accordance with procedures and within deadlines established by the state unemployment compensation agency, and they must certify every two weeks that they are available and seeking suitable (jobs they have previously performed) employment and that they did not receive disqualifying earnings during the period. Certification is generally accomplished by telephone. The rules for applying and certifying are generally very strictly enforced by state unemployment agencies. Failure to call in or report in person to certify as required will result in disqualification for two weeks or more of benefits unless there is a compelling reason for failure to do so. Failure to apply within the prescribed deadline after layoff also will result in loss of benefits for the weeks prior to filing absent a compelling reason for failure to do so.
Comment: Many otherwise eligible individuals are disqualified from receiving benefits for which they would otherwise be eligible due to their failure to read and understand and comply with the unemployment agency's rules. Read the rules carefully and make sure you comply with them to the letter. Keep a record of your job search activities such as companies contacted, interviews, etc., so that in the event you are required to show that you are seeking work you will be able to do so.
IF YOU QUIT YOUR JOB
As stated above, the general rule is that if you quit your job you will not be eligible for unemployment compensation. The rule in Michigan and most states is that a reasonable person will find another job before quitting the one he or she has. An exception to rule disqualifying people who quit occurs when there is "good cause for quitting attributable to the employer." What is or is not good cause is a gray area subject to differing interpretations by employment agency examiners and by the courts. In general good cause for quitting is something that would cause a reasonable person to quit even though he or she does not have another job. Examples of good reasons are being required to work in unsafe conditions, being asked to violate the law, discrimination, sexual harrassment, repeated verbal abuse or physical abuse by a supervisor, bounced pay checks, a significant change in the terms and conditions of your job (e.g. a wage or benefit cut).
Generally speaking, the courts require that before quitting the employee must use the prescribed complaint procedure and give the employer a chance to correct the situation. In Michigan employees are not required to file an OSHA, or discrimination complaint with a state or federal agency before quitting, but they are required to raise the issue with their employer using prescribed procedures and give the employer an opportunity to address the issue before quitting. in order to qualify for unemployment compensation. In disputes over good cause for quitting the burden of proof is on the employee to establish that he or she had good cause for quitting attributable to the employer. Generally, this is not easy to do. Most unemployment agency claims examiners and administrative law judges are hard to convince that a reasonable person would not secure another job before quitting, absent serious abuses.
COMMENT: Recently, I represented a claimant in an administrative law judge (referee) hearing who quit because his supervisor repeatedly referred to him as a "terrorist," apparently because he appeared to be of Arabic descent. The claimant asked his supervisor not to refer to him as a terrorist and complained twice with no result to his supervisor's boss. The judge found good cause attributible to the employer for the claimant to quit. Going into the hearing I was not confident that the claimant would be found eligible. We argued at the hearing that calling someone a terrorist, even in jest, had taken on much greater significance since 9/11. The judge agreed. On the other hand there are Michigan court decisions that have said that an employee doesn't have the right to expect a "perfect supervisor" and have excused some pretty sorry supervisory conduct. In most cases, the best advice is to find another job before quitting or don't count on being eligible for unemployment compensation.
IF YOU ARE FIRED
Dismissal for serious misconduct is another disqualifier for unemployment compensation and another frequent gray area which is a common subject of disputes and appeals. What may seem to an employer as serious misconduct may not amount to misconduct under the unemployment compensation statute or court interpretations of if. In Michigan, the controlling court ruling defines disqualifying misconduct as "wanton or willful disregard of the employer's interest." That's a pretty high bar for employers to meet in contested unemployment compensation cases. However, those words leave much room for interpretation and dispute. Generally speaking, misconduct will be found in event of a single serious offense (e.g. theft, drug or alcohol offenses, insubordination, assault or fighting) or repeated minor offenses such as habitual tardiness or excessive absenteeism or other repeated and intentional violations of company rules or policies. Nevertheless, much remains for dispute.
The following is the definition of misconduct adopted by the Michigan Supreme Court in the case of Carter v Employment Security Commission, 364 Mich 538, 541(1961):
"[Misconduct
in an unemployment compensation case is] ... conduct evincing such
wilful or wanton disregard of an employer's interests as is found in
deliberate violations or disregard of standards of behavior which the
employer has the right to expect of his employee, or in carelessness or
negligence of such degree or recurrence as to manifest equal
culpability, wrongful intent or evil design, or to show an intentional
and substantial disregard of the employer's interests or of the
employee's duties and obligations to his employer. On the other hand,
mere inefficiency, unsatisfactory conduct, failure in good performance
as the result of inability or incapacity, inadvertencies or ordinary
negligence in isolated instances, or good-faith errors in judgment or
discretion are not to be deemed 'misconduct' within the meaning of the
statute."
Some employers abuse the system by firing emloyees for alleged misconduct when they need to reduce the work force rather than laying them off because they do not want the employees to collect unemployment compensation against their account and cause their tax rate to go up. In dismissals, the burden of proof is on the employer to establish misconduct.
COMMENT: Don't press your luck. Comply with the rules and policies of your employer and, if you are going to be late or absent, call your employer and let him know. Administrative law judges take a dim view of employees who are absent or late and don't bother to call in. On the other hand, they will find claimants eligible in cases of absence or tardiness due to illness, emergency situations requiring care for children and the like.
Some employers use automatic point systems to discipline for absence or tardiness which do not take into account the reasons for the absence or tardiness. Most judges do not consider automatic point systems valid for establishing misconduct under unemployment compensation statutes. Absence, per se, is not misconduct. Only absence without reasonable cause is misconduct--illness or child care needs, court appearances and the like are not absence without reasonable cause. Of course, the more tardinesses and absences there are, the more skeptical the judges are of the employee and the more likely they are to find misconduct. Medical records and other tangible evidence can be helpful in establishing good cause for absences in unemployment compensation hearings. In Michigan, a court decision has said that in cases where an employee has been absent or tardy many times the burden shifts from the employer to the employee to establish that his absences should have been excused because of illness or other good reason.
COMMENT: I have represented claimants in many cases fired by their emloyers for alleged misconduct who have been found eligible for unemployment compensation by administrative law judges. Generally speaking, the employee must have been informed of the rules and the employer must prove the violation by first hand testimony. With few exceptions hearsay evidence is not admissible.
TEMPORARY EMPLOYMENT AGENCIES
The Michigan unemployment statute provides that anyone who is employed by a temporary help firm is obligated to notify the temporary help firm of the termination of an assignment with a client of the temporary help firm within 7 days of the end of the assignment, provided he was notified in writing of this obligation by the temporary help firm before the empolyee began performing services for the client.
Failure to notify the temporary help firm of the end of an assignment causes many claimants to be disqualified from receiving benefits. Many employees are required to sign several papers when they start an assignment or sign up with a temp agency. They receive a job with a client of the agency and work for months or even years and then are laid off. By then they have forgotten that they were notified of their obligation to notify their temporary agency that their assignment has ended with the result that they are disqualified from receiving benefits.
COMMENT: The requirement to notify temp agencies, in my opinion, is very unfair to claimants and should be stricken from the act. Notifying the temp agency should be the obligation of the client employer, not the employee. Or, at very least, the client employer should be obligated to notify the employee, in writing, at the time the assignment ends, of his or her obligation to call the temp agency within 7 days and inform the agency that their assignment has ended. Moreover, a phone call is sometimes not enough to avoid disqualification. I have seen cases where the temp agency failed to record a phone notification. And some unscrupulous temp firms who have been notified by phone deny in appeal hearings that they have been notified. If I were a temp employee whose assignment came to an end I would follow up my phone call with a notification by a fax or registered letter. The notification provision in the statute is badly in need of change.
APPEALS PROCEDURES
All states provide for appeals of eligibility determinations by unemployment agencies. You should appeal any decisions which you believe are not in accordance with the law in your state. You don't have to hire a lawyer in order to appeal an agency determination or to appeal a re-determination to an administrative law judge hearing. Administrative law judge decisions may be appealed to the state appeals board without charge and without hiring an attorney. Michigan provides free representation by attorneys or lay representatives for claimants and employers in administrative law judge hearings. However, most states do not provide this service. It is to your advantage to be represented in administrative law judge hearings by someone who is familiar with unemployment compensation regulations and court decisions.
Unemployment agency claims examiners and other personnel involved in administering the statute are not infallible. Their decisions are reached without the benefit of having complete information from claimants and employers, and they deal quickly with large numbers of cases. Therefore, their error rate is significant. If you feel you have been found ineligible in error or unfairly, you should not hesitate to appeal. Administrative law judge decisions are much more likely to be correct than determinations by unemployment agency claims examiners. Nevertheless, the judges aren't infallible either, and if you disagree with the judge's decision you should appeal it to the state appeals board. In Michigan nearly all appeals board decisions are based on the facts found by the administrative law judge and on his written decision plus a transcript of the administrative law judge hearing. The cost to claimants or employers of an appeal is only the postage for the appeals letter which must be RECEIVED (not postmarked) by the appeals board by 30 days from the date of the judge's decision.
COMMENT: The appeals procedures for agency determinations and re-determinations and for appeals to administrative law judge and appeals board reviews carry STRICT time limits. If your appeals are not timely you will be out of luck in most cases.
IMPORTANT: If you are appealing an unemployment agency determination or administrative law judge eligibility decision, you must CONTINUE TO CERTIFY in accordance with agency procedures (calling Marvin in Michigan) that you are unemployed and seeking employment until your case is finally settled one way or the other. Even if you win your appeal you will not receive unemployment compensation for any week for which you failed to certify.
IMPORTANT: Getting to the administrative law judge hearing on time or preferably a bit early is critical. The judges' dockets are busy and the hearings start on time even if the claimant or the employer is not present. Moreover, being late does not make a good impression on the judge. Make sure in advance that you know how to get to the Hearings Office. Most judges will not accept your excuse that you were late because you got lost on the way to the hearing.
VERY IMPORTANT! Read the green book "Unemployment Benefits in Michigan" very carefully. The green book is provided to claimants. It explains almost everything you need to know about how to apply for and qualify for unemployment compensation benefits.
Part One describes "Benefit rights, Responsibilities and Terms Every Unemployed Worker Must Know."
The Forms Section of the green booklet contains tear-out forms for various aspects of the process of applying for unemployment compensation, appealing unemployment agency decisions and so forth.
Part Two explains how to phone MARVIN to certify/claim weeks of unemployment benefits. Failure to call MARVIN will result in a loss of benefits for the reporting period.
Appeals to Circuit Court and Higher Courts
State appeals board decisions in Michigan and most other states may be appealed to the circuit court nearest the employer or residence of the claimant and to appellate courts all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. Practically speaking, few unemployment compensation cases are appealed beyond the state appeals board or circuit court.
Only the Agency can Determine Eligibility
Finally, and most important, only the unemployment agency can determine whether or not you are eligible and qualified for benefits, not your employer or your friends. Therefore, if you are in doubt, file a claim with the unemployment agency. Delay in filing for failure to file is likely to result in loss of rights and benefits. Moreover, simply talking with an agency representative does not protect your rights. You must file a claim and continue to certify for each week you are unemployed in order to protect your rights and benefits.
NOTE: Unemployment compensation statutes vary in significant respects from state to state. The above comments are based on my experience as a member of the Michigan Employment Security Board of Review (appeals board) and on my experience for the past two years representing claimants in administrative law judge (referee) hearings in Michigan. I am certified by the state of Michigan to represent claimants, but I am not a lawyer. My intention is to provide accurate and helpful advice for claimants based on my experience in Michigan; however, I make no guarantee of the accuracy or completeness of the above material.
Michigan Unemployment Insurance Agency Website
Michigan Unemployment Insurance Agency Problem Resolution Offices
- UIA - Problem Resolution Offices - Need Help?
Click on this link for the UIA page listing the addresses of Problem Resolution Offices where you can get help face to face with an actual human.
Digest of Unemployment Compensation Court Decisions
- Digest of Unemployment Compensation Court Decisions in Michigan
This on-line digest of unemployment compensation court decisions in Michigan was prepared by the staff of the Michigan Employment Security Board of Review (appeals board).
MICHIGAN WORKS WEBSITE
- MICHIGAN WORKS!
This is a good site for information about jobs in Michigan.
Food Stamps and Other Assistance--MI Bridges Website
- DHS MI Bridges
To apply for food stamps or other assistance, the state has two Web sites: www.michigan.gov/mibridges and www.michigan.gov/helpinghand. You also can contact your county Department of Human Services office. Get the number by calling 517-373-2035.
Food Stamps and Other Assistance Website--Helping Hand
- Helping Hand - Helping Hand
To apply for food stamps or other assistance, the state has two Web sites: www.michigan.gov/mibridges and www.michigan.gov/helpinghand. You also can contact your county Department of Human Services office. Get the number by calling 517-373-2035.
Financial Planning Decisions When You are Laid Off
Michigan Employers to Pay More Into Jobless Fund, Detroit Free Press 11-14-08
Unemployment Compensation Solvency Tax
40,000 Michigan employers will pay an extra $67.50 per employee in 2009 to pay off a $472.8 million shortfall in the unemployment benefits trust func, moneh the state borrowed from the federal government to pay benefits to 650,000 people in 2008.
Don't deny unemployment insurance benefits to bought-out workers by Michael Harper and Joshua Riley
The article linked below will be of interest to workers who have accepted buy-outs. The authors point out that the law is not clear on whether workers who accept buy-outs are eligible for unemployment compensation benefits. The authors argue that while buyouts are often presented as "voluntary"' in effect, however, the workers to whom they are offered have limited volution. The offer in itself acts as a signal to the worker that a job is not secure. This signal is often received in a deteriorating economic climate. The resulting apprehension of job loss is coupled with the realization that a worker who refuses a buyout now may be jobless with no parting payment in the near future. Reat the entire excellent article here:
[Unfortunately the link is dead. The Detroit Free Press kills links to their articles after a brief period and charges an exorbitant fee for access to the material. Too bad!)
Protecting Wages in a Global Economy, NY Times Editorial 3-18-07
Published: March 18, 2007
Federal wage insurance is a pilot program for a small subset of workers, age 50 or older, who lose their jobs to trade competition. Under the program, a worker who takes a lower-paying replacement job can receive a government subsidy for two years, equal to 50 percent of the difference in earnings up to a total of $10,000, provided the new job pays less than $50,000 a year.
Congress is now examining whether wage insurance should be expanded to a national program and added to existing aid for the unemployed. There are some attractive aspects to the program. But it should not be the first priority in dealing with job loss. Given the nation's limited budget resources, it would be very difficult to incorporate wage insurance into the social safety net without cannibalizing other programs.
First, traditional unemployment insurance must be improved before wage insurance is expanded. A joint federal/state program, unemployment insurance is currently available to about 35 percent of workers and replaces, on average, about a third of their weekly earnings, usually for up to 26 weeks. Critics portray it as a license to loaf. But people who collect unemployment insurance generally find better-paying jobs than those who do not and are more likely to find jobs with health insurance. That is a strong argument in favor of expanding unemployment insurance, not curtailing or replacing it.
There is also no reason to believe that taxpayer dollars are better spent on wage insurance than on retraining for displaced workers. States and localities have had good results from retraining, which could be bolstered with federal support.
On the positive side, wage insurance could be a pragmatic response to the downward pressure on wages from globalization. Not everyone who loses a job in today's economy is able to find a comparable new one. Wage insurance would help keep displaced workers working and, possibly, help them to acquire new skills on the job. But there are still many unanswered questions about its efficacy.
So far, the issue has divided on predictable lines. House Republicans have introduced a bill that would let states use unemployment insurance funds to pay for wage insurance or other programs, like private employee accounts, that could be tapped in case of job loss. That would be good for free-market cheerleaders, but not for laid-off workers.
In contrast, a Democratic representative, Jim McDermott of Washington, has drafted two proposals. One, costing roughly $7.5 billion over five years, would expand unemployment insurance, to be paid for by extending an expiring federal unemployment tax on employers, equal to about $14 per worker per year. The other would allocate $3.5 billion a year to establish a national program of wage insurance, to be paid for by a new employer tax equal to about $40 per worker per year.
Congress should first proceed with improvements to unemployment compensation and then further explore the merits of direct job retraining and wage insurance. Ideally, the nation would be able to provide unemployment insurance, retraining and wage insurance. But lawmakers have to make tough choices. It's crucial to the economic well being of families that they choose well.
Helping the Unemployed NYTimes 5-5-08
Helping the Unemployed
Published: May 5, 2008
Americans don't have to wait for the statistics to know these
are very hard times. For the fourth month in a row, the
economy lost jobs in April. The economists said the
contraction was not as bad as expected - 20,000 jobs
were shed versus an anticipated loss of 75,000. Not as
bad as expected is cold comfort.
The latest employment report shows other deepening
problems for American workers, including slower wage
growth, cutbacks in hours, a sharp increase in the number
of part-timers who would prefer full-time work and lengthening
spells of unemployment.
The White House response to the pain is to wait and see if
things get even worse before calling for help for the
unemployed. On Friday President Bush said that his
administration had anticipated the slump and would combat
it with tax rebates that were passed last February as part of
the economic stimulus package.
There is no guarantee, however, that the rebates - which
are just now being distributed - will spur the economy as
hoped. Rather than spend the money, many indebted
consumers are likely to use it to pay down debt, and some
people, justifiably fearful of job loss, are likely to save it.
Besides, there's no more time to wait and see. In April, the
number of Americans who had been out of work for at least
27 weeks (26 weeks is when unemployment benefits run out)
rose to 1.35 million workers. In the past year, 2.74 million j
obless workers have exhausted their benefits.
Job loss is clearly a hit to families' finances and, in the
aggregate, to consumer spending and economic growth. Job
loss coupled with the exhaustion of unemployment benefits
leads not only to personal desperation, but will further
damage consumer confidence, already sorely tested by the
housing bust, the credit crunch and soaring prices for food
and gasoline.
What is needed - now - is for Congress to extend jobless
benefits for people who exhaust their initial 26 weeks of
payments. Research is unequivocal that bolstered jobless
benefits are more effective stimulus than tax rebates. They
also have the advantage of being targeted to people in need.
The extension could be attached to the supplemental
spending bill for the Iraq war, which may come before
Congress as early as this week. Predictably, President Bush
is balking, mainly because of his wrongheaded belief that
tax cuts are the best solution to all problems.
The White House has also asserted that with the overall
unemployment rate hovering around 5 percent, joblessness
is not yet bad enough to warrant an extension of
unemployment benefits. But in prior recessions, benefits
had already been extended when long-term unemployment
reached the current level. And in recent recessions, the
unemployment rate didn't peak until the recession was
basically over. Waiting for the rate to rise before extending
benefits is almost sure to result in offering too little help, too
late - deepening the pain of the recession.
Congress erred by not extending unemployment benefits in
last February's stimulus package. Lawmakers and Mr. Bush
now have a second chance to fix that mistake. They must not
squander it.
Unemployment Compensation System Marks 50th Anniversary
- http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1985/09/art3full.pdf
The Social Security Act of 1935 broke new ground in alleviating the economic impact of unemployment be establishing a Federal-State program of cash benefits for workers who had lost their jobs.
Unemployment Insurance--U.S. Labor Department
7-30-09 Michigan Unemployment Agency Overloaded With Claims
- Free Press Article by Chris Christoff
Michigan's unemployment system is swamped with a backlog of about 100,000 claims involving disputes or problems, as it copes with 450,000 people receiving benefits.
Q. & A. on Applying for Unemployment Benefits by Chris Christoff in the Detroit Free Press 7-30-09
- Q. & A. on How to Apply for Unemployment Compensation Benefits
Useful advice from Chris Christoff in the Detroit Free Press on applying for UC benefits.
Craig's List Job Scams
- Craigslist Scams - 20 Ways to Identify Fake Job Scams
Poor job hunters! The stress of trying to find a job in this poor economy that matches our skills and salary requirements is hard enough. But unsuspecting job hunters now have another battle to contend with -...
Unemployment Compensation--U.S. House of Representatives Green Book
"Subtle Clues Can Tell An Interviewer 'Pick Me' by Phyllis Korkki in the NY Times 9-13-09
- Tips for Job Interviews
Be on time. Dress appropriately. Research the company ahead of time. Do have questions. Be yourself.
There Are Many More Out of Work Than Unemployed
- There Are More Out of Work than Unemployed
Floyd Norris explains the difference between "out of work" and "unemployed."
Top 15 Jobs in Detroit
Best USA Cities for Jobs
- Best 25 Cities in the USA for Jobs
Best 25 Cities in the USA for Jobs (Best Cities, Part I) Top 10 American Cities for Young Adult Professionals (Best Cities, Part II) The best US cities for young adults entering the workforce or ready to step...
8-31-09 Detroit News Jobless Claims Overwhelm UIA
Jobless claims overwhelm state workers
Unemployment office's 800 workers ordered to log 140 overtime hours by year's end
Mark Hornbeck / Detroit News Lansing Bureau
Lansing -- While most state workers are about to take their last unpaid furlough day, Unemployment Insurance Agency employees are racking up overtime.
The 800 employees, including call center and problem resolution staff, recently received a memo saying they'll have to put in 140 more hours of overtime before the end of the year to keep up with the crush of applications from Michigan's legions of jobless. They'll have to work seven Saturdays or holidays and then another 80-plus hours of overtime during regular workdays.
The overtime will cost $3.4 million, about $4,300 per employee, a tab picked up by the federal government.
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Michigan has an unprecedented 450,000 residents receiving unemployment compensation and "hundreds of thousands" waiting to get benefits, said Norm Isotalo, spokesman for the Unemployment Insurance Agency. The state's 15 percent jobless rate is the highest in the nation.
"We do need to get the work done," Isotalo said.
Call center phone line times have been expanded until 6 p.m., and offices are open longer, from 7 a.m. to 4 p.m., he said.
Staff members have been required to put in overtime for much of the year, Isotalo said, to cut down on waiting time.
Because of the flood of business, Unemployment Insurance Agency workers were not compelled to take the six furlough days required of more than 37,000 other state workers, whose last payless day will be Friday. It's not certain whether more furlough days will be required in the next fiscal year that begins Oct. 1 as a measure to help balance a budget that is $2.8 billion out of whack.
The unemployment office isn't the only help center trying to cope with increased demand.
The waiting lines are mounting for job training and tuition under the state's 2-year-old No Worker Left Behind program because there are more applicants than dollars.
While applications are being processed across most of the state, there are waiting lists in western Wayne and Monroe counties, said Andy Levin, deputy director of the Department of Energy, Labor and Economic Growth. Most of the program is financed with federal grant money, and the state applied to the U.S. Department of Labor for $58 million in late June to address the need, Levin said. Officials are waiting for an answer.
People will be put into training as money becomes available, he added.
One contractor in southeastern Michigan who is handling No Worker Left Behind benefit requests erroneously sent e-mails to applicants earlier this month saying there is no money for the program, Levin said. He added that the Southeast Michigan Community Alliance, which is running the program in Wayne and Monroe counties, neglected to set up a waiting list.
"We're not sure why that happened, but it has been taken care of," he said.
Under the program, laid-off workers can get up to $10,000 for two years of tuition at a community college, four-year university or other approved training program. About 88,000 people have enrolled, Gov. Jennifer Granholm has said.
mhornbeck@detnews.com (313) 222-2470
9-2-09 Low Wage Workers often Cheated by Employers
- Employers Cheat Low Wage Workers
Low-wage workers are routinely denied proper overtime pay and are often paid less than the minimum wage, according to a new study based on a survey of workers in New York, Los Angeles and Chicago.
8-31-09 Det.News Jobless Claims Overwhelm Unemployment Agency
- Jobless Claims Swamp Unemployment Agency
The state's 15% jobless rate is the highest in the nation with 450,000 on benefits and "hundreds of thousands" waiting for benefits, said Norm Isotalo, UIA spokesman. Call center phones have been expanded until 6Pm and offices are open 7am-4pm.
Out of Work But Uncounted
- Out of work, discouraged and uncounted
Left out of the latest unemployment rate, as they are every month: millions of hidden casualties of the Great Recession who are not counted in the rate because they have stopped looking for work. But that does not mean they don't want to work.
If my employer tells(in writting) me That the issue on a hostile work environment has been resolved and gives me a manditory call back to work date and I return and find out that I feel the issue has not been resolved so i leave work am I eligible for unemployment.
Bob, In Michigan the administrative law judges and the courts don't usually find misconduct solely on the basis of automatic attendance point systems which don't take into account the reasons for the absences or tardinesses for which points are racked up. Simply being absent or late is not misconduct under the Michigan statute--being absent or late WITHOUT REASONABLE CAUSE too many times is disqualifying misconduct. The judge will or should decide your eligibility based on how many times you were absent or late without a valid excuse such as illness, need to attend to child care and the like. If the employer is unable to establish that the reasons for your absence were not justifyable, the judge should find you eligible (in Michigan). However, you should note that I'm really not able to express an opinion on your case without reading the case file and hearing your side of the story.
Cris, your eligibility in Michigan would depend on the facts of the case based on your testimony and that of any employer witnesses at an administrative law judge hearing. You would have to show more than your "feeling" that the hostile work environment issue was not resolved. You would have to testify to specific things your supervisor or other employees said to you or did to you after you returned to work. I don't recall the used of the words "hostile work environment" in any case that I have encountered; however. continued harrassment, verbal or physical abuse should constitute "good cause attributable to the employer for quitting." Quit or voluntary leaving cases are among the most difficult for claimants because the burden of proof falls on the claimant to establish the existence of facts attributable to the employer which would cause a reasonable person to quit his or her job. In Michigan you are not required to file a civil rights complaint claiming "hostile work environment" or discrimination in order to qualify for unemployment compensation. But if you have filed a complaint with the civil rights commisstion, that could help support your claim for unemployment compensation. Again, I hesitate to express an opinion on your case without knowing all the facts.
Hello, I recently resigned my position with my company as my family was relocating. Because this left my employer without anyone to do my job they offered to re-hire me on a contract basis and allow me to work from home. I accepted as I did not have employment in our new location. I worked for the company while they brought a replacement up to speed. I received notification that my company wanted to terminate the contract (as it was stated in the contract). I filed for unemployment and have been receiveing checks. Today I received a letter that my employer is contesting the claim. I explained what I have typed here in my rebuttal and attached the letter of termination. Am I in the right here? I would not have had any rights when I resigned but upon their re-hire and termination of my employment wouldn't I be entitled to unemployment benefits?
I think that in Michigan you would be eligible although it's hard to say for sure without reading the file and seeing what your employer is telling the Unemployment Agency. Although your employer terminated you, they are probably claiming you quit without cause attributable to the employer. This is a gray area. You should go to the administrative law judge hearing, with a representative who know unemployment compensation law, and tell the judge that you did not resign but were terminated by your employer. Sorry for the slow reply.
Ralph,thanks for the reply. I am in Michigan and as of now I don't know anything about the hearing. The state simply asked for a rebuttal to their claim. I sent the letter of termination I received and I am hoping that this is proof enough of my argument. While losing benefits is of concern what is even more concerning is that all over the documents I was sent it reiterates the penalties for fraud and makes statements that insinuate I am doing something fraudulantly. It kind of scares you away from using a system that is there to be used. Thanks again for the reply. Very useful information!
Good. You did the right thing. Be sure and continue to call Marvin in accordance with the Agency procedures. Shortly, you will receive a redetermination either affirming your eligibility or reversing the original determination. You have the right to appeal an unfavorable redetermination to an administrative law judge. The employer has the same right. If you or the employer appeals you will receive a list of advocates names and phone numbers. It will be to your advantage to have an advocate to help represent you at a the ALJ hearing. Keep me posted on what happens.
Ralph,
I have a hearing scheduled for next month. On my hearing paper it states that the ISSUES are the redetermination statement, SEC 29 9, and Voluntary Quit (new to me!) What is Sec 29, 9 all about. I have looked it up and can't understand the language. Can they bring up new stuff such as the voluntary quit? I was fired because I didn't tell a supervisor I was going to lunch on a particular day. It was a past practice and I had proof with letters. Then they allowed me to work for one week and a half before they fired me for that!!!! Nobody ever told me that whatever I did was wrong. I worked for this company for 20 months and always did the same procedure. I prooved that to unemployment. That was easy. Two times Unemployment found me not having willful or wanton disregard for the employer. I know this won't be an issue but how in the world can they say that it was a Voluntary quit and what the heck is Sec 29 9 all about.
Kate
Ralph,
How long is a hearing? It says on my paperwork that it starts at 9:00 a.m. Can I take paperwork with me such as letters from employees stating what happened on the day they said I had a terminable action? Can my father represent me?
Kate
Kate, in Michigan, administrative law judges ordinarlily schedule one hearing per hour. Hearings usually last less than an hour depending on how complicated the case is, how many witnesses there are, etc. Yes, you may present at the hearing any paperwork relevant to your case.
Section 29.9 deals with cases where employers submit notice to the unemployment agency of possible disqualification due to misconduct beyond the time limit prescribed by the agency. It provides that information submitted late shall not "form the basis of a determinatin of ineligibility or disqualification for a claim period compensated before the receipt of of the notice by the commission." In other words, late information submitted by an employer may not be used retroactively to disqualify a claimant for a period before the information is received by the agency.
The Michigan statute provides that "Any individual claiming benefits in any proceeding under this act by the commission or a court may be represented by counsel or other duly authorized agent." You should inquire of the office of the administrative law judge whether or not you father would be considered a "duly authorized agent."
If you are not accompanied by an advocate, the judge is obligated to assure that you get a fair hearing.
If you are in Michigan the Unemployment Agency should have provided you with a list of advocates who are certified to represent claimants in administrative law judge hearings. The people on this list have received training on the unemployment statute and procedures and are certified to provide representation without charge to claimants (Advocates are paid by the Unemployment Agency.) In my opinion, it would be to your advantage to take advantage of this free service.
Ralph,
Thank you for providing the information. You have no idea how much I appreciate your informative information. I understand exactly what my paperwork is saying now. They are bringing up a new topic Voluntary Quit because it has never been brought up that is what 29 9 is stating. Why would they bring up a voluntary quit when it isn't even realistic?? Do you think it was to get a hearing?? I don' t know how to make sense of all this? Are they trying to scare me away or do you think it is just protcol for companies to drag it out to this step all the time? I will take advantage of calling the advocacy number and receiving assistance.
Kate from Michigan
29 (1) (a) covers voluntary leaving (quittint) without good cause attributable to the employer, such as unsafe working conditions, harrassment, etc.
29(1) (b) covers discharge for misconduct.
29(9) covers situations where the employer is late in submitting information to the Agency on the reason and circumstances of the termination.
Since the circumstances of a termination are often not clear or disputed, the judges usually add the issue of voluntary leaving to cases where the issue may appear to be misconduct, and they sometimes add the issue of misconduct to cases where the issue appears to be voluntary leaving. The do that so that both issues may be raised and discussed at the scheduled hearing. Otherwise, another hearing might have to be held to discuss an issue not listed on the "Notice of Hearing."
An example of a case where the issue is not clear is when an employer tells an employee they are about to be fired but suggests that it will allow the employee to resign. The the employer may claim that the termination was a voluntary leaving based on the written or oral resignation. Of course, there was nothing voluntary about the leaving and the judges treat these cases as misconduct cases, putting the burden on the employer to establish "wanton or willful disregard of the employer's interest" rather than on the employee to establish "good cause for quitting attributable to the employer."
You should have received a list of advocates from the Agency. I suggest you call one of the individuals on the list to discuss your case. Best of luck!
1. Appeal the Agency's determination with a written statement of your side of the story.
2. If you have already done that and if you have received a redetermination from the Unemployment Agency, appeal the redetermination and ask for a hearing before an administrative law judge.
3. Continue to certify in accordance with the rules that you are unemployed and available and seeking work.
Ralph,I commented above regarding my situation. I have been denied benefits on my redetermination. I am confused because on redetermination it states that I am being denied benefits for a claim of 11/28. I never made a claim for 11/28 as this was the time I voulantarily quit my job. I was then hired on an open-ended contract basis for about 2 months earning much more than the qualifying amount for a rework even though the redetermination states I did not earn enough to requalify. I am concerned with two things here. The dates don't match the claim I made and they don't even seem to be considering my re-hire and the termination of the contract. Are rules different for a contracted employee? Before I appeal this decision I want to make sure I am not missing anything so here is a time line of events:
11/24/06 - Quit job voulantarily as family was relocating11/28/06 - Before my employment ended I was offered a contracted position that allowed me to work at home and started the Monday after the end of my employment1/31/07 - Contracted employment was terminated. 2/2/07 - Filed claimIs there someone that can officially tell me if I have a case or not? Can you provide any additional information or make any suggestions?
Thanks,
Jon
Hello,
I was recently fired from my job because I was using the internet and faxing resumes to other offices to find another job. I know this was not the brightest thing to do- but I was worried about being laid off and I didn't want to be unemployed.
I just received my letter stating I am disqualified from receiving unemployment benefits under MES ACT Sec 29 1B "Disregard for my employers interest". I know I can file an appeal and I am going to do that- but I wanted to get some advice first about what to do/say to help my case. Just very frustrated since it seems that so many receive unemployment that abuse the system and I am struggling and I cannot get approved.
Thank you,
Lynette
It's hard to offer advice without knowing more about the case. First question, was there a published rule prohibiting use of your employer's Internet and fax machinel for personal reasons? Had you been informed of the rule if there was one? If there was such a rule, what did it say? Was the rule enforced uniformly? Or was it common for people to use the Internet to communicate with their spouses or friends. (I recall a case at one of the auto companies where the supervisor who fired the claimant admitted at the hearing that he sometimes emailed his wife to let her know he was not coming straight home from work, etc. And the claimant testified that others commonly used email for personal communications.) You may have trouble winning your case if there is a published rule which is enforced uniformly by your employer. Otherwise you may succeed in getting the Agency's determination reversed. There have been quite a few cases going each way.
Misconduct is defined in the law as "wanton or wilful disregard of your employer's interest." I would argue that your employer wasn't harmed by your use of the email any more than if you had used the office telephone to inquire about other employment opportunities. Telephone use for local personal calls is permitted by most employers, so long as the employee doesn't spend a lot of time chatting. That reminds me of another question---How much time did you spend on the Internet and/faxing resumes. If you spent a significant amount of time, that would weaken your case. If you could show that you spent only a small amount of time, mostly on lunch hour and breaks and only sent a few faxes that would help your case.
Another question, why were you apprehensive about being laid off? Had other employees been laid off? Had there been any announcements or communications by your employer about workforce reductions. If there was a real threat of layoff, most employers are happy to allow their employees to use their facilities to look for employment elsewhere. So, it would help your case if you could come up with any evidence that a layoff was likely. If a layoff was imminent you were doing what a reasonable employee would do--start looking for another job.
Finally, had you been warned to stop using the Internet and/or fax machine. Or were you fired without a warning after your use of the facilities was discovered? I would argue that the appropriate thing for your employer to have done, upon discovering that you were using his facilities, would have been to instruct you to stop. And, only if you continued, would dismissal have been appropriate.
One final question--do you know whether the employer hired anyone to replace you? It would be worthwhile to try to find that out because some employers disguise layoffs of people they no longer need as firings for misconduct in order to avoid having them collect unemployment compensation against their account. If you were not replaced that fact could be used to create doubt about your employer's motive for discharging you. It could have been a layoff disguised as a dismissal for misconduct.
Good luck on your case! If you think of it let us know how it turns out.
Thanks for responding to my post. Here is the answers to some questions you had posed. First, to answer about the published rule- yes it was in our handbook that internet and office equipment was not to be used personally. Everyone had to sign that they received the handbook. However, I know for a fact that EVERYONE there used the internet for personal reasons and the email system as well including the office manager- whom fired me. How do I prove that though? Secondly, I faxed a few resumes to other offices and I used the internet more often. I don't know if they can prove how often I used it or not- but honestly, I was actively seeking employment elsewhere so it was more than just on my lunch break. I cannot prove it myself one way or another either. I have no documentation of anything from my previous employer. Third, about being laid off. I had heard from employees there that the company had laid off several people shortly before hiring me and since the work was no longer coming as steadily as before, I easily put two & two together and wanted to make sure I had another job before I lost this one. My office manger had never told me about the lay offs- it was all said behind the scene. Fourth, my office manager did not warn me, write me up or proceed with any disiplinary action before she came to me one day and with the faxes she found me sending out & said "pack your belongings- you are done here". Finally, I am not aware of anyone being hired in my replace. I don't speak to anyone in that office any longer.
I don't know how I can appeal or prove anything to a judge/court if I have nothing in writing. It seems the burden of proof is in my hands and I'm not sure how to prove anything. I am in the process of filing a complaint with the State of MI DOL in regards to unpaid overtime wages & I have sent a certified letter to my previous employer to send me my personnel files, but I am afraid that they will not even comply with that and I won't have any documenation at all for either case.
Thanks again for listening to my issue. I take full responsibility for using the internet and fax- however, I just feel that the harshness of my termination should at least result in unemployment compensation, I guess not huh?
I would guess that you have at least a 50-50 chance of getting the administrative law judge to reverse the agency's determination. It would help if you could get another person who worked in the office at the same time you did to testify at the hearing that internet use was common by many people in the office and was tolerated by your employer. And your representative at the hearing should question any employer witnesses on this point--i.e. ask them if it is not true that many people used the Internt. That will force them to admit this or perjure themselves. Then the employer witness should be asked whether anyone had ever been dismissed or even disciplined for using the Internet at the office. Then they should be pressed on whether they can show that you wasted a significant amount of time when you had work to do. Using the Internet during lunch hour or break time or after work should not be considered misconduct, in my opinion. Finally, any employer witness should be asked under cross examination whether someone was hired to replace you after you were dismissed. If the employer witness says yes, he should be asked the name of that person and whether he or she is still employed there.
Another thought, did the employee handbook define a disciplinary policy spelling out steps of progressive discipline, e.g., counselling written warning, etc. before discharge. And did the rule prohibiting use of the Internet specify what the penalty would be for violations? If not it would be reasonable to expect the company to issue a verbal or written warning in the first instance and only resort to dismissal if there was another violation.
Your case is not hopeless. And it doesn't cost anything to appeal to an administrative law judge. Some of the judges are more lenient and others more strict. You might get lucky. Also, it would be helpful to sign up with one of the claimant advocates. If you appeal you will be sent a list. Most of them are pretty good. And there is no charge for their advice and representation at an appeal hearing. They are paid by the Unemployment Agency. (In Michigan and several other states.)
Jon, Sorry, I just noticed your question. I'm not sure what you mean by a "contracted employee." The rules are slightly different for employees working through temp agencies. If your assignment through a temp agency ends you are required to notify your temp agency promptly that your assignment ended and let them know you are available for another assignment.
Again, thank you sooo much for all your advice! I am definitely going to pursue this case and I appreciate you listening to my issues and offering such helpful pointers. God Bless!! :)
Lynette, this may be of interest--http://hubpages.com/hub/E-Mail_Trail_Big_Boss_is_w
Mark, The burden is on you to show that you had good cause attributable to the employer for resigning. Establishing this is not easy. Unfortunately, the employer does not have the final say on eligibility for unemployment compensation. The addition of responsibilities would not be considered good cause. Whether reductions in benefits might qualify, depending on the extent of the reductions. For example, cancellation of health care benefits and/or pension benefits would, in my opinion, would qualify as good cause. If memory serves, wage or salary reductions of 15 percent or more would constitute good cause. Your case sounds like a tough one to me. However, it doesn't cost anything to appeal. If your employer doesn't show up at the hearing you might get the redetermination reversed. Good luck!
Mr. Deeds, the information and insight regarding unemployment benefits has given me a greater understanding of how the law works. Thank you for that.
I do have a question, though: I am in the process of appealing an administrative law judge's decision regarding my eligibility for unemployment benefits. In the summer of 2006, I worked through a temp agency for a two month assignment in IL. Once the I was told by the employer that the assignment was to end in two weeks, I promptly notified the temp agency of my anticipated last day. I contacted the temp agency again on my last day with the employer. I also informed the temp agency that although I had to move back to MI (where I am from originally) because I couldn't live in Chicago without income, that I am actively seeking work in IL, and had no problem with moving back to IL for employment in HR. The temp agency told me they had no jobs available, so I had no choice but to move back to MI. In March 2007, I filed an unemployment claim with IL, which the temp agency protested. The administrative law judge ruled in the temp agency's favor, stating that since the last time I spoke with the agency was at the end of my assignment, and no time during 2007, that it gave the impression that I was unavailable for work (even though I presented into evidence during the telephone hearing my record of work search.) Yes, I did not use the temp agency as a job search resource, but I was actively applying for work in both IL and MI and keeping my eye open for opportunities.
Mr. Deeds, I understand that laws differ from state to state. I wanted to get your insight as to how to proceed with my appeal. I feel I should not be penalized because I didn't keep in weekly contact with the temp agency. And besides I feel I did my part in notifying the agency of my work availability after the assignment completed.
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!
Felicia
To be perfectly honest, I have never come across a case like yours, and I am not familiar with the law in Illinois or even in Michigan. Otherwise, the best advice I can give is to set forth the facts of your case as clearly and completely as you can in your appeal. Depending on how much money is at stake you might want to consult an attorney who is familiar with the Illinois unemployment compensation statute and court decisions.
There is a Michigan Supreme Court decision that might be helpful in your case. It is Bingham v American Screw Products Co, 398 Mich 546 (1976).
Supreme Court Holding: 1. Claimant who established credit weeks in Michigan can requalify for benefits by being able and availab;e in Kentucky. 2. since claimant resided n Kentucky his previous Michigan employer's offer of work was not suitable as it was too distant from his residence in Kentucky.
Facts: Claimant left a Michigan job because he could not find adequate housing at a price he could afford. He was disqualified for voluntary leaving. He returned home to Knetucky, and registered for work with the appropriate employment office there. Thereafter he diligently sought and made himself available for suitable work, but turned down a job offer from his former Michigan employer due to the distance from his Kentucky residence.
Decision: (1) Claimant requalified for benefits after serving the period of disqualification under the Act, and (2) was not disqualified for refusing his former employer's job offer because the offer was not an offer of "suitable work" due to the fact the job was too distant from his residence.
Rationale: 1. When a claimant moves to a locality other than where he earned credit weeks, his being able and available should be determined by whether he was genuinely attached to the labor market in his new locality.
2. In determining whether the Michigan employer's offer of work was sjuitable the Court found claimant's residence was in Kentucky as this is where he actually lived. The Court of Appeals erred in holding the Michigan employment offer was suitable, when it determined claimant's residence as a matter of law was both where he resides and where he earned credit weeks. To hold otherswise would restrict an unemployed person's right of freedom of movement to seek a job where it is best for him.
*****
In pursuing your appeal in Illinois you might cite the above Michigan Supreme Court decision and its reasoning. Illinois would of course not be bound by a Michigan decision, but they might take the reasoning into account when rendering a decision. Or it might be that the law or Court decisions in Illinois are similar to the above Michigan decision. I don't have the time or ready access to the unemployment compensation law or court decisions in Illinois. That's about the best I can do for you.
One of the purposes of Unemployment Compensation is to facilitate the working of the labor market, i.e., to assist and encourage people who are laid off to actively seek employment. It seems to me that your actions and the Michigan Supreme Court decision are consistent with this objective.
Note: I am not familiar with unemployment compensation law in Illinois. Moreover, I have never handled a case like yours in Michigan.
Thank you for the advice! The following is the wording from the Referee's Decision:
"CONCLUSION: Section 500C of "The Unemployment Insurance Act" provides, in part, that an unemployed individual shall be eligible to receive benefits with respect to any week only if the Director find that he is able to work, and is available for work; provided that during the period in question he was actively seeking work and he has certified such on a form provided by the Department listing the places at which he has sought work.
Futhermore, where a claimant last worked for a temporary help agency, a failure, without good cause, to contact that agency each week raises a presumption of unavailability. Here, since the claimant was seeking work back in the Chicago, Illinois area, there was no good cause reason for her not to be contacting the tempory help agency. That would have been one of her better job sources. Therefore, the Referee finds that the claimant was not available for work within the meaning of the Act."
I was at a total loss when this decision was rendered because it was not a delibrate decision of mine not to contact the agency. I was in search of full time work, and since I told the agency of my availability at the end of the assignment (plus once more in mid Oct 2006), that I was doing the right thing.
If the decision stands, I will have to repay the state of IL $794, which I do not have because of my continued unemployment.
Is there a place where I can search for cases involving claimants drawing unemployment from temporary employment agencies?
Once again, thank you!
Felicia
I'm sorry, but I don't know of anything that would be helpful. The statute in Illinois is stricter with regard to temp agencies than it is in Michigan. It must have been written by lobbyists from the temp agencies. Requiring you to contact the temp agency every week or be presumed to be unavailable is quite unreasonable in my opinion. The monkey should be on the temp agency's back to contact you about available assignments rather than vice versa. And once a week is excessive. You only have to certify your availability to the unemployment agency every other week. In Michigan temp agency employees whose assignments end are only obligated to report this fact to their temp agency. There is no requirement that they contact them again. The agency is expected to notify the employee of any suitable openings. You are the victim of a fishhook inserted in the unemployment statute at the request of temp agencies so that they will be able to disqualify their employees from collecting unemployment compensation against their accounts. This is but one example of many reasons why unemployed workers who should be getting unemployment compensation aren't getting it.
I don't know what Illinois does to collect payments ruled improper. In Michigan, my understanding is that they don't try to take your house or car if you don't pay. But they will grab any future state income tax refund that you may have coming. And they will take a portion of any future unemployment compensation payments for which you may eligible. Also, in Michigan repayment may be excused if evidence of hardship is provided. You may want to inquire of the Unemployment Agency in Illinois about their collections policy and whether they have provisions for excusing repayment in hardship cases.
I KNEW I should have run away with the circus when I had the chance! LOL
I agree with you completely...but then again, of course I would...my opinion is biased. :)
Thank you for your insight!
Felicia
I understand that I am in a "right to work" state where either party can terminate employment without reason. On a conference call with other people, I was given a choice to resign and promise not to sue the company, or be fired if I did not sign that agreement. The company said they would not protest unemployment benefits. I resigned with a simple letter instead. Do you think this is "good cause" to qualifty for unemployment? Thanks, Gary W.
As I have pointed out my experience is in Michigan, and I'm not familiar with the laws in other states although they are similar in most respects. When you file for unemployment compensation you will be asked whether you were laid off, quit or were dismissed for misconduct. And your former employer will be informed of your application for benefits and queried about the circumstances of your termination. The fact that your employer promised not to protest your unemployment compensation does not automatically mean that you will be ruled eligible for benefits. In Michigan your eligibility would depend on the reason why your employer gave you the choice of resigning or being fired. That is did the reason you were going to be fired constitute "misconduct" under the statute? That is, did you willfully disregard the interest of your employer? The burden is on the employer to establish misconduct. If your employer does not protest your benefits or supply the reasons for firing you, then you should be found eligible for benefits.
In Michigan I would advise someone in your circumstances to tell the Unemployment Agency that he or she was, in fact, fired without good cause but given the choice of signing a letter of resignation. Thus, the termination was not a "voluntary leaving" which would disqualify him or her from receiving benefits. It was a de facto dismissal. To establish misconduct the employer must show that the employee committed a single serious violation of a company rule of which he had been informed or that he repeatedly violated less serious rules, e.g. repeated absences or tardinesses without reasonable cause.
Question.
I was leaving my job for other employment, I gave two weeks notice. My employer let me go because he did not see the point in me continuing to work for him if I was planning to move on. Days before I was to start my new job, it fell through the new employer claiming one of my previous employers gave me a poor review. I received a copy of the background check and it said nothing to this effect. I am unemployed and having difficulty finding other employment.
So now I am trying to get unemployment. I have been disqualified due to MES Act 29(1)(A) and MES Act Sec 29(5). I have appeled only to receive the same determination. My next step is to have a hearing. I don't know what to do. Do I proceed with a hearing? Do I even stand a chance. I guess I thought because my employer let me go during my notice period that I qualified.
I would proceed with a hearing although Sec 29(5) provides that in order not to be disqualified for quitting the new employer must offer permanent employment and you must "perform services" for the new employer.
However, in Miller (Visiting Nurse Association), 1978 BR 54236 (B76-17052) the Board of Review ruled that a discharge in anticipation of voluntary leaving is a non-disqualifying separation.
FACTS: The claimant was employed as a secretary. "On May 11, 1976, the claimant notified her employer that she intended to quit on July 10, 1976. On June 23, 1976, the employer discharged the claimant because of the claimant's projected leaving."
DECISION: "It is held that the claimant's discharge on June 23, 1976 is non disqualifying under Section 29 of the Act."
RATIONALE: "Appeal Board precedent on the issue of a discharge in anticipation of a quit is at odds. One view (followed by the Referee in this matter) is that the discharge is disqualifying under Section 29(1)(a). Eq, In re Farmer (Michagan Kitchen Distributors), B72 2870 41782. The other view is that such a discharge is a non-disqualifying separation. Eq, In re Howarth (Falvey Autos, Inc.), B65 3611 34164; In re Terry (Paul's Steak House), B64 5185 33210. See also Carter's Hamburgers, Inc. v. Employment Security Commission, Case No. 316, 234 (Wayne County Cir Ct 1961) and Hubert v Appeal Board, Case No 323, 171 (Wayne County Cir Ct 1962)
"In our opinion, the latter view is correct. Under section 29(1)(a), a 'leaving' must be 'voluntary' to be disqualifying. When an employee is discharged for giving notice of an intent to leave his work at a future date, hsi leaving is involuntary. Absent proof to the contrary, the employee cannot be deemed to have chosen unemployment. Rather, his unemployment is the result of his employer's judgment about the efficiency of the firm."
My recommendation: Appeal your redetermination to a hearing before an administrative law judge. Get an advocate. Call the advocate's attention to the above cases. And if the judge rules against you, appeal his decision to the Boarde of Review in Lansing. You have nothing to lose. Appeals to an administrative law judge or to the Board of Review cost you no more than the postage on your appeal letter.
Important: Don't miss your appeal deadlines and continue to call MARVIN in accordance with Agency procedures until your case is resolved. Good luck!
Anne: I forgot to mention that once you appeal, the Unemployment Agency will provide you with a list of advocates who are paid by the Agency to represent claimants. The people on the Agency list are familiar with unemployment compensation regulations and court decisions. There is no cost to you for representation at an administrative law judge hearing.
(cont)
If I understand, I was defacto dismissed, and they likely have to establish misconduct or good cause.<> When I file as "terminated without good cause", will the unemployment office want to know the details up front that I had filed an internal complaint, it could not be resolved, and I had asked for an early layoff that the company refused, -then they asked me to resign or be fired? Or, will that come later if I am denied, and there is a hearing? Thank you
Gary: It sounds to me that your case was not a voluntary leaving but rather a firing without misconduct. The unemployment agency (Michigan) will send you a form asking several questions about the circumstances of your dismissal. You should answer the questions truthfully, without writing long, detailed answer, e.g., "I was told I would be fired and offered the opportunity to resign instead. I chose to resign. This was not a voluntary resignation. I was not accused of misconduct." They will send a similar questionnaire to your former employer. Based on your answer and that of your employer, the Agency will make a determination on your eligibility for benefits. Both parties will have the opportunity to appeal this determination. If either party objects to the determination, a redetermination will be made which either party may appeal to an Administrative Law Judge (Referee) hearing at which time testimony will be taken and a written decision issued. Good luck!
Ralph -
I put in my 2 weeks resignation with my previous employer. They terminated my employment the day after submitting my resignation.
Today in the mail I received two letters of determination, one telling me that I was not qualified for benefits due to the fact that I resigned. The other states that I am qualified for benefits due to the fact that I was terminated before my resignation date.
Is there any way to tell based on the determinations I received which one is correct?
(continued)
Here is the specific information I received:
Determination Letter #1:
"You quit your job with (employer) effective 5/23/07 because you were dissatisfied with your pay. You were given more responsibilites along with a promotion. After two months you felt you should have been compensated for these new responsibilities. There is no documentation showing the employer was given a reasonable opportunity to rectify the problem.
It is found that you voluntarily quit your job without good cause attributable to the employer. You are disqualified for benefits under MES Act, Sec. 29 (1)(A).
You are disqualified for week ending 5/26/2007 until complettion of a ($) earnings rework requirement which has not been satisfied"
Determination letter #2:
"You were terminated from (employer) on 5/9/07 when you gave notice of your intention to resign on 5/23/07. Misconduct in connection with your work has not been established.
It is found that you were not fired for a deliberate disregard of your employers interest. You are not disqualified for benefits under MES Act, Sec. 29 (1)(B)"
The "Date notice was mailed or personally served" are identical save for the last 6 digit number at the far bottom right of the letters.
Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
In my opinion, the second determination is correct. (See my response to Anne, above.) Keep calling Marvin. You should begin to receive benefit checks or continue to receive them. Keep us posted on what happens.
Ralph Fired for refusing random drug test.Worked for a drug re-hab in michigan.Who can administer drug test? Graduate of Narconon re-hab to administer test. I REFUSED Asked to be tested by nurse on staff.
I don't know the answer to your question off the top of my head, and I'm out of town on vacation for two weeks without access to materials to research the law and rules on drug testing. Sorry.
Mr. Deeds,
I am , er was, a computer repair technician for a small (2-3 person) company in FL. I was terminated a few weeks ago for doing work after hours and on the weekends. Is this "misconduct" of a nature that would disqualify me from unemployment benefits? My ex-boss is of the opinion that he needs me to "learn a life lesson" and removing a car, cellphone and paycheck are apparently not punishment enough. There were no issues with my work performance or quality and his only offense occurred on my time. Since He intends to fight the claim I was wondering how cases like this usually go?
In my experience, it's hard to predict the outcome of cases like yours which are in the "gray area," especially without hearing both sides of the story. In Michigan, based on what you said, I think you would have a good chance of winning your case before an administrative law judge. It's surely worth a try. The result might depend on whether you violated a published rule of which the employer had made you aware. Also, your chances would be better if you had not been warned not to work after hours. I would think you would be entitled to at least one warning. The fact that your work performance was good is in your favor, but the judges tend to focus on the alleged misconduct--how serious it was and whether the claimant violated a published rule of which he had been made aware. If you had been told clearly not to work after hours and you did it anyway your chances probably aren't good. Also, what work you were doing would probably be relevant. If you were working on something personal to benefit yourself and not the employer that would not help your case. If you were working on work which was benefiting your employer that would be in your favor. In Michigan the standard for determining misconduct is "wanton or willful disregard of the employer's interest." And the burden is on the employer to establish that the alleged misconduct occurred and that it harmed the employer's interest.
Ralph, where did you get this information? I guess what I am trying to say is, Is this your own wording or taken from the web?
It's my own work. I represent claimants in unemployment compensation appeals hearings in Michigan. I served five years on the State of Michigan Unemployment Compensation Board of Review which rules on appeals by claimants and employers of administrative law judge decisions.
Dear Ralph,
I recently quit my job at a clothing store in Michigan. I had worked there for two years. I quit because I had been threatened several times to be fired and months would go by, and it was as if nothing ever happend. I was a nervous wreck. The environment also got to the point where it was so hostile, that I would come home and cry every night.
It all began in April, when I chose to interview for a flight attendant position. I took a personal day to attend the interview in Chicago. I simply approved the day off with my store manager; did not tell her why. My district manager came, and somebody must have known I was going and told her. Several associates approached me telling me they were contacted and asked if they were interested in interviewing for my position, on my day off. I kept to myself and was desperately seeking other employment.
One day I was called, and told my store manager and I were to have a meeting with the district manager who was on the phone. She told me I was not fulfilling the requirements of my position; and asked me why. I told her that another manager left large amounts of her work unfinished and I helped to finish the work, while my work suffered. She then asked if I felt I was the right fit for this position. I told her I thought I was. She asked me to resign, and I said absolutely not. She then said she would have to "do this the hard way". I then heard her tell my store manager to begin writing me up, and document everything she could. I went to talk to the manager who left the work, and tried to resolve the situation. She stated that this wasnt her problem and she wasnt doing anything wrong. I was then contacted by phone, again, by the district manager, who began screaming at me. She told me to accept responsibility for what I had done, and that I needed to act like a grown up. She then said what I did was called retaliation, and to punch out and go home. I left, and called in sick the following day. I was so anxious and nervous that I had horrible diarhea. I was seen at the grocery store shopping for medicine by a manager. When I returned to work, I had three write ups. One stating I had verbally assualted the manager I tried to resolve things with, two stating I had thrown a tape dispenser (I absolutely did not) and number three stating I was seen in public when claiming sickness; and I should stay home when sick. I finished out my shift, but called and quit. I told them I was just too uncomfotable to continue working under those conditions. Could I claim unemployment? I have filed and I will be getting sent a questionaire as to why I quit. Any helpful tips?
In my opinion, you deserve to be eligible for unemployment compensation, but your chances of winning your case before an administrative law judge are no better than 50-50. The burden is on you to convince the judge that you had good cause for quitting attributable to your employer. That is not easy. The standard is whether your job situation was bad enougth that a reasonable person would resign under the circumstances. The assumption is that unless the situation is pretty bad (unsafe job, sexual harrassment, asked to do something illegal, pay checks bounce, etc.) that a reasonable person will find another job before he or she quits the one they have. When you file for benefits the best you can do is to describe briefly the mistreatment by your employer and its effect on your health that caused you to quit. And if the Agency determines that you are eligible you will receive unemployment compensation until and unless your employer appeals. If your employer objects, the Agency will make a redetermination which you and your employer have the rigth to appeal to an administrative law judge.
Bottom line, you have nothing to lose by filing for unemployment compensation and, if necessary, appealing to an administrative law judge hearing which doesn't cost anything. And you might get lucky and win. Also, your employer might not show up at the hearning which would improve your chances.
Thank you so much for your advice. You'll never know how much I appreciate it.
Good luck!
Very enlightening as I have been there before
Keep Hubbin
Jackio<a href="http://hubpages.com/_3vo9q7smqf2vp/hub/are-you-sec >THE THEORY OF BEING SECOND BREED</a>
Ralph,
I worked as a mechanic for a company in Michigan for 4 years. I was promoted to a foreman position with the promise of $1.25 more per hour if I did a satisfactory job in 6 weeks. 6 weeks went by, then 8, and when I asked about my raise, my supervisor just kept giving me the run around. It was finally after a year and 1/2, that I broached the subject again....and was told I'd get my raise in 2 weeks. Well, I inquired about my raise again and was told I must not really want the position and was demoted to just a mechanic again. I had in the meantime gotten a part time job for a autobody repair shop. My supervisor was aware of the part time job and never said anything about it. Another
Sorry got cut off....Anyway another employee went to my supervisor and said I was working for a competitor. I was called into the office and was told I had to quit my part time job or I was terminated. I had signed an employee handbook that said working for a competitor was grounds for termination but I had the part time job before I was required to sign the handbook.
I filed for unemployment and was awarded it because my determination letter said I had the 2nd job before I was made aware of the policy and intentional misconduct was not found.
I received 6 weeks worth of unemployment and then received a re-determination letter saying that I was not eligible for the claim and that I had to pay back almost $2,000. My employer contested my claim saying that I refused to quit my 2nd job and that I said I was done and walked out, which is not true. He said I was terminated....But the redetermination said that I voluntarily quit without good cause.
The letter also stated that "claimant is disqualified for week ending 6-16-07 until completion of a $3,732.00 earnings rework requirement which has not been satisfied. What does that mean?? It also says claimant must pay to the agency in cash or deduction from benefits, restitution in the amount of $1,866 under section 62(A).
I just wrote an appeal letter requesting a hearing before an Admin. Law Judge stating that I was fired and did not voluntarily quit. What do you think are my chances and is there anything else I should do? The guy I had the part time job with now hired me full time as of Aug 20th, but the last time I called into MARVIN, was also Aug 20th to claim the previous 2 weeks and I never received my check. Is that because my claim was redetermined?
Thank you so much for your time. Any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated. I certainly cannot afford to pay all that money and I don't believe I should have to.
Thanks again.
1. It's hard to give solid advice without reading the case file, but it sounds to me like you are entitiled to unemployment compensation and that you have a good chance of winning your case before an administrative law judge.
2. Get an advocate to represent you at the hearing and give him or her all the facts. Don't wait til the last minute to sign up an advocate because it takes time to get the case record and prepare for the hearing.
3. Plan to get to the hearing early. Allow extra time for traffic jams, road repairs, etc. The hearnings usually start on time regardless of whether one party or the other is late.
4. I'm not sure why you didn't get your last check. It was probably because of the unfavorable redetermination.
5. Earnings re-work requirement--if you have been disqualified from receiving UC you must be re-employed and earn a certain amount before you become eligible again for unemployment compensation. If you win your case before the administrative law judge, I don't think the earnings re-work requirement would apply.
6. One argument in your favor is that your employer or supervisor was aware of your other part-time job and said nothing about it, thus, in effect, condoning your other job. Also, your advocate could question any employer witnesses to demonstrate that your second job caused harm to your primary employer's business, asking them whether or not they have any evidence that you induced or tried to induce any potential customer to have their work done at the shop where you were working part time. (If they can show that you will probably lose your case. You may lose anyway based on your violation of a company rule of which you had been informed.)
Good luck at your hearing!
Ralph,
Thanks for all of your help, I was found eligible to recieve unemployment!
Good for you!
Thanks for responding. Your time is greatly appreciated....Hopefully it will all work out. Have a great Sunday.
My first question is what standard of proof does the MI UIA use?
I have discrimination complaint against my former employer who lost his objection, but the MDCR is trying to tell me that they won't give any defference to the UIA's decision because the UIA is using a different standard. Without going into detail, I just think (for reasons I haven't disclosed) that either this attorney is predjudiced or dosn't know aht she is talking about.
I was also wonder about a strange decision I got a couple of years ago about two weeks severence from the Board. I was amicably terminated from my employment at a CPA firm and was asked to sign a waiver in order two receive two weeks severence. The contract had no reference to the word severence nor was there an allocation to specific time period and the amount I agreed to was the net amount of two weeks pay, though the check stub indicated the gross amount when I received it. The Attorney/CPA principle owner drew up the waiver contract and signed on behalf of the CPA firm. Without having read the contract, which constituted fraud or gross negligence, the managing partner testified in the hearing before the ALJ that the intent was to give me two weeks severence. I appealed to the Board arguing that the waiver contract was proof of the intent of the firm, to which it responded that the Board was not bound by the terms of the contract. I had also argued along the way that because of the language of the contract, or the lack of any indication that the payment was related to my employment, that I was receiving a mere contract payment.
Could it be that because the Board felt I was exploiting a technicality, and that any benefitsd denied goes into the General Fund of this fiscally strapped state?
I don't believe the courts apply a single standard of proof in unemployment compensation cases. For example, in resignation cases, the agency and courts appy a "reasonable person" standard. That is, are the job conditions bad enough to cause a reasonable person to resign withou finding another another job before resigning. In these cases, the conditions have to be pretty bad--unsafe, illegal, immoral or a significant change in employment conditions.
And in Waite v Chrysler Corp, the Wayne Circuit Court ruled that a disqualification must be supported at least by a "convincing preponderance of evidence."
You may have been on the Board when my case was decided. Would you like to comment on the Board's obsurd decision?
I may have been on the board when your case was decided, but I don't recall being on the panel that decided your case. The names of the members who voted on your case would be on the copy of the decision you received. The Board of Review is not infallible. Moreover, the Board was stacked with a conservative chairman, Kathy Markman, spouse of conservative Michigan Supreme Court Justice Markman and several conservative members. I dissented on quite a few cases, and quite a few of my dissents became Circuit Court reversals of majority Board decisions. My impression is that the Board of Review under Granholm has applied the law more fairly to claimants. I couldn't comment on your case without reading the full decision and case file.
Ralph,
I took a educational buyout package from one of the big three. Then began going to school full time and taking care of the kids. My employer offered to rehire me as a temporary employee working at a lower wage with no benifits. I agreed to work under these conditions as long as they didn't demand over 40 hrs. a week and I could perform a specific job. After 6 months they had a change of operations and my position wasn't availiable any longer. They offered me another job , a different job, on a different shift, working weekends, and a mandatory 60 hrs. a week. They said either sign up for the new job today or we would'nt be able to use me anymore. The Unemploymrnt agency said although I am disqualified under sec. 29 (1)(a) voulantary quit. Any Ideas?
I would request an Administrative Law Judge hearing and argue that you had good cause for resigning attributable to your employer, namely a significant change in your conditions of employment with which you were not able to meet. The case could go either way. Also, the employer may not show up at the hearing.
Mr. Deeds:
I was let go from my job - at the time of my dismissal, I was told that they were terminating me. At the time, I was promised & a week later, received severance pay. I filed for unemployment & received it. Then I received a "Notice of Restitution Due". It said that I had been let go for misconduct. It said I was doing personal business on work time, had been given a verbal warning about personal business & continued to make personal business calls on business hours. I protested the determination.
In my protest, I stated that I received severance pay, which I believe contradicts a termination for misconduct. I stated that I had not received any verbal warnings, nor did I recall ANY conversations regarding personal phone calls. I stated that the company did not have any published rule prohibiting personal phone calls. That I did make some personal phone calls, but did so, for the most part, on my time (luch/break periods), which varied day to day as I worked as a manager in a retail operation. (Other employees at the same location also received/made personal phone calls - not necessarily on their own time.) I also stated that my position has not been replaced & believe this shows it was due to lack of work -- which is why I believe I was really let go.
I received an answer to my protest saying I still have the restitution owing. I know I can appeal to the Administrative Law Judge, which I plan to do. What do you think? Any suggestions?
I am currently requesting a copy of my personnel file to see what they have put in it. If they do not have any documentation in the file, does this strengthen my argument?
Thanks for your time.
It's hard to make an informed comment on any case without reading the case file. However, based on what you told me, without seeing the employer's side of the case I believe that you should be eligible for unemployment compensation. The fact that you were paid severance pay is an indication to me that you were terminated for reasons other than misconduct under the unemployment statute, but does not amount to definitive proof in and of itself of this.
In most workplaces employess are allowed to receive and make personal phone calls so long as they are not excessive. In presenting your case, the following questions may be relevant
1. Was there a formal, written rule of which you were made aware prohibiting making or receiving personal telephone calls at work?
2. If so, what did the rule say?
3. If there was such a rule, was it applied consistently in actual practice? Can the employer show evidence of other employees who were dismissed for making personal calls? Can you show that others made personal calls without being disciplined. A lack of consistency in enforcing a rule would undermine its charges of misconduct.
4. Can the employer show that the calls that you made resulted in significant delays in your work which resulted in harm to the company? That is, at the time you made the calls was their actually work waiting to be done? If so, did harm result from the brief delays from the calls? Can you show or testify that many or most of the calls were made during break or lunch time or lulls in your work assignments.
5. Does the employer have records or evidence that it had warned you about telephone calls at work?
6. Does the employer have records of the dates and times and length of your allegedly excessive personal calls? How many calls does your employer claim that you made?
6. Was the issue of misconduct or excessive telephone calls mentioned at all at the time of your termination? If not it's claim of misconduct to the unemployment agency is belated and suspect.
7. Your success in the administrative law judge hearing will depend on the answers to these questions.
In my opinion, the fact that you were paid severance pay is not definitive one way or the other. Your employer is likely to claim that your eligibility for separation pay is a separate issue from the issue of your misconduct under the unemployment statute. It would seem to be an indication that your alleged misconduct was not deemed to be so serious as to disqualify you from severance pay. This raises the question of if it was not serious enough to disqualify you from severance pay why is it so serious as to constitute misconduct under the unemployment statute.
Mr. Deeds:
Thank you for your response. I will be requesting an appeal before the administrative judge. Besides requesting a copy of my personnel file in accordance with the Bullard-Plawicki Act, what else should I request? If they don't have anything about the phone calls included in my personnel file, does that make my case stronger? How long do they have to send me the information?
In answer to your questions:
1. No
2. N/A
3. Based on my knowledge, no one has been let go. Others did make personal phone calls - it would be my testimony.
4. I believe most of my calls were made from my cell phone. There were no delays in work that harmed the company. I can't specifically show anything, but can testify to it.
5. I don't believe they have any records of warning. I never was warned or signed anything. If there is anything in my file, I believe it is made up, possibly after the fact.
6. I don't believe they have any proof - I never saw anything. Wouldn't they have to put that in my personnel file?
7. There was absolutely NO mention of the phone calls at all at my termination.
In addition to all the above, I believe the employer also violated federal law-HIPPA. They never sent me a COBRA notice & they do have over 20 employees. They also delayed the start of my insurance that I was entitled to receive as a full-time employee ( I was supposed to get it 4/1 & they didn't start it until 6/1 - which happens to be their open enrollment period). They never gave me my dental insurance as all other full-time employees received. When questioned, they kept telling me that it wasn't that good of coverage & that they were going to be changing insurance - even though all other full-time employees received it! I was having the same amount deducted from my paycheck as the other employees, but not receiving all benefits I was entitled to. One of the things that was agreed upon at my hire was that they would pay for my coverage thru my spouse's insurance until I was eligible to add to theirs, so we were never without insurance & they did cover that until they added us to the medical insurance 6/1, but never added to the dental. Does any of this additional stuff help? Does it help to show that the employer was not above board with this & go toward credibility of the misconduct claim? Or is this a separate issue for me to deal with?
Thanks again for your time!
The judge would probably just consider those side issues. The issue on which the case will be decided is whether or not you committed misconduct--i.e., in Michigan, that you "wantonly or willfully disregarded the interest of your employer." The burden will be on the employer to prove misconduct. It sounds to me as if that will be hard for them to do. If you are in Michigan, I suggest you get a advocate to help you present your case at the hearing. Also, you have the right to see the unemployment case file at the administrative law judge's office. Reading through the case file will help you and your advocate prepare for the hearing.
Also, make sure you know where the hearing office is located and don't be late for the hearing. They usually start promptly at the time indicated on the Notice of Hearing.
Good luck!
Mr. Deeds,
I was wondering if you receive/answer messages through your contact part of your page.
I haven't had any requests, but I would be happy to consider your request.
I was working at a motel in Indiana when my daughter was in a very serious car accident. She is 7 years old and witnessed a man die and her best friend in a coma for 3 weeks. She was with the next door neighbor and it happend 120 miles from home. When I got word of the accident I called someone to come in and I left as soon as I could. I spent the next couple days with my duaghter as she was having some serve emotional problems. She seen a threapist for weeks afterwards. I was told my the AGM to take a couple days and not worrry about it. Then the GM called and raised hell with me. I told her I needed to be with my child and she said you need to come to work or quit. I said I wont be in.
3 weeks later I found another job and worked for 2 months and was let go. Unemployment found I was unjustifed fired from the second job. Then I got a letter saying I was disqualified because I quit without good cause. Do you think I have a shot of winning an appeal becasue I was with my injuied child. I am a single mom living with my mother and father. He is disabilied the the lack of income has caused great pains. I have not been able to find another job but an looking very hard.
It's hard to express an opinion on your chances of winning without an opportunity to read the case file. But based on what you have said I think you should be ruled eligible for unemployment compensation. However, in my opinion, you case would be stronger if you had formally applied for a family leave of absence. In substance that was what you did when you informed your employer that you needed to be off to care for your daughter. I would argue that you did not quit your job, but you were, in effect, denied a leave by your employer and fired because you did not returned to work.
Note: My knowledge of unemployment compensation law is based on my experience in Michigan. UC law is similar in other states but not identical.
Good luck in your appeal. If you think of it, let us know how it turns out.
Mr. Deeds,
I recently lost my job, and tried to collect unemployment, but I was denied because of intentional disregard of my employer's interest...It said in the letter that was I was fired for excessive tardiness. At the store that I worked at, they have a very strict attendance policy...for instance, if you were to be late, no matter for what reason, you would get verbal/written warnings (write-ups)...So some of my warnings that I had received were unfair.
I read in some of your previous answers to questions, that the state takes into consideration your case, if the company you worked for has an attendance point system.
I am going to appeal my determination, and I was wondering what advice you had to give. I am completely on my own, and very lost when it comes to dealing with government issues.
Whether the judge rules in your favor will depend on how many times you were late, taking into account any reasons you have for some or all of the tardinesses. There is no fixed rule on how many tardinesses constitute misconduct. In general, the judges don't have much patience for unemployment compensatin claimants who are habitually tardy. However, tardiness when there is a good reason for being late does not constitute misconduct. The employer should not automatically count a tardiness without giving the employee a chance to explain why he or she was late. If, for example, you had a flat tire on the way to work or a car accident or a bus breakdown or your baby sitter was late, you shouldn't be penalized for being late. However, the more times you are late for whatever reason the more likely the judge is likely to rule that your tardiness constituted misconduct. Normally, the burden in misconduct cases falls on the employer. However, there is a court decision that says that the burden shifts to the employee in cases where there have been frequent absences or tardinesses. Another factor is the period of time over which the tardinesses occurred. The judge should not consider anything a year or more old. The more recent the tardinesses are the bigger the hill you'll have to climb with the judge.
Finally, whether or not someone was hired to replace you could be relevant. If you were not replaced that raises the issue of the employer's motive for dismissing you. Some unscrupulous employers whose business declines and who want to reduce their workforce fire an employee instead of laying one off but call it misconduct when, in reality it's a layoff. They do this in an effort to avoid having unemployment compensation benefits charged against their account.
Good luck!
I live and filed in Michigan. Another question if I may. When UIA makes a determination I assume one person makes it based on the information supplied. But when an appeal for re-determination is made will the same person make it or someone else?
I don't know for sure. I have a hearing tomorrow, and if I remember, I'll ask the judge. I suspect it could be the same person or another person. It should be set up so that a different person looks at the case for redetermination, but I don't know for a fact that that's the way it works.
Thank you for your insight.
I was also wondering, ever since I worked there, I never recieved a take home employee handbook. So I never knew what the attendance policy was. When I first started, I was told I had a bunch of paperwork to sign, and that was about it. I do recall signing an employee handbook, but I was never given the opportunity to take it home. But when I asked the store manager about it, she always ignored my question.
Also is there any relevance, that the same strict attendance policy was not enforced with everyone in the store?
Thanks again for your help
It's worth mentioning that you never received a copy of the attendance policy. Also it is relevant that the same policy was not evenly applied to everyone. Nevertheless, it, depending on how frequently you were late or absent, it may be hard for you to convince the judge. They are tough on people who are not punctual, and they are not very accepting of excuses for lateness. Best of luck.
I'm desperate for help in determining if I should be eligible for unemployment in Michigan. I worked for an employer for more than 5 years. I resigned as of August 30, 2007 for a new job. That new job did not work-out and I resigned (after 3 work days), returning to my previous 5-year job on September 13, 2007. I was never taken off payroll at my 5-year job, I never missed a pay period, nor did I lose seniority, insurance, sick or vacation time. The 3-day job never put me on payroll and, instead, just wrote me a small check as a "miscellaneous expense".The 5-year employer then fired me on October 18, 2007. Unemployment first determined that I was eligible for benefits from my 5-year job. That 5-year employer then brought the 3-day job to unemployment's attention. Now, because of the 3-day job, unemployment says I'm not eligible for any benefits from anyone. It's hard for me to believe that I worked for the original 5-year employer 2,030 out of 2,040 days over a 5.5 year period - and am not eligible for any unemployment benefits.Does this sound correct? Any comments or advise are sincerely appreciated.
I'm not able to express a solid opinion on your eligibility without reading the case file. Here are the applicable provisions of the Unemployment Statute:
"Section 29(1) An individual is disqualified from benefits if he or she:
(a) Left work voluntarily without good cause attributable to the employer...However, if the individual has an established benefit year in effect and during that benefit year leaves unsuitable work within 60 days after the beginning of that work, the leaving does not disqualify the individual....
"Section 29(5) [An indivudual is disqualified] If an individual leaves work to accept permanent full-time work with another employer and performs services for that employer..." [ Comment: this apparently is what the Agency is relying on to disqualify you.]
"Section 29(6) "In determining whether work is suitable for an individual, the commission shall consider the degree of risk involved to the individual's health, safety, and morals, the individual's physical fitness and prior training, the individual's length of unemployment and prospects of securing local work in the individual's customary occupation,and the distance fo the available work fromthe individual's residence. Additionally, the commission shall consider the indivusual's experience and prior earnings, but an unemployed individual who refuses an offer of work determined to be suitable under this section shall be denied benefits if the pay rate for that work is at least 70% of the gross pay rate he or she received immediately before becoming unemployed."
Your case is unusual in that you only worked 3 days for the other employer after resigning. Whether you are eligible might depend on why you left the second employer, i.e., whether you could demonstrate that the work there was "unsuitable" and as well on why your original employer terminated you.
If I were you I would appeal the determination or redetermination and request a hearing before an administrative law judge. It seems to me that a case could be made that your eligibility for benefits is consistent with the purpose of the act and that you deserve the benefit of the doubt, especially if your termination was a layoff because the employer's business declined and you were no longer needed. Good luck.
If I am a seasonal worker and they laid me off, am I eligible to receive unemployment insurance?
You are not eligible if your employer notified you that he is a seasonal employer, eccept that you may be eligible if you are laid off during the "normal seasonal work period" posted by your employer. Exceptions: construction workers are eligible ro unemployment compensation; workers who have been assured of employment following the seasonal shutdown but who are not re-employed may be eligible for unemployment compensation as if they were not in seasonal employment
(MICHIGAN)
i am asking for advice i missed a court hearing and my unemployment was reversed, ive appealed 5 times now and have been denied a court hearing i have evidence that prooves my employer is lying but because i missed the court appointment they will not look at it, i did not intentionally miss this appointment it was a mistake and understand what you said about being on time now they will take no excuses. does this mean i have to hire a lawyer now i dont have 7.000.00 dollars to pay back and did nothing wrong except miss acourt appointment.
I don't have a solution to your problem. You would have to have a pretty strong excuse for missing the hearing.
i know now they will not give me a hearing what i am asking is do i have to hire a lawyer now to appeal with the circuit court
i just wanted to add to that i am in warren mi and from what it sounds like you did with unemployment and now do i would think you would have some kind of advice on what to do when you have to appeal to the circuit court which is what their telling me but i dont no what to do, i dont get it are you not allowed to give an opinion?
I'm certified by the Unemployment Agency to represent claimants in Administrative Law Judge hearings but not in appeals to circuit court. I am not a lawyer, You don't have to have a lawyer to appeal your case to the circuit court. You can represent yourself. I believe the court which would handle your appeal is the Macomb County Circuit Court which is located in Mt. Clemens. The clerk there can give you information on the procedures. Not many UC cases are appealed to circuit courts and not many of those who appeal are successful. If you can find a lawyer who is familiar with UC law and who doesn't charge an arm and a leg, it would improve your chances of prevailing in your appeal. It's hard for me to express an opinion on your case without reading the case file. Based on what you said about missing the hearning your chances don't look good to me.
Thanks i now know i am screwed, this is not right to give a person one chance and thats it.
Thanks for the info
hi i put in for an appeal with unemployment. I resigned from a city job after five years because I felt I was going to be fired. They said I was going to be suspended if I couldn't do the mandatory overtime. I am with lawenforcement (hospital police). I told them I could not do the consistent overtime because i have to pick up my son from childcare. Chilcare is from 8 to 6. I was doing over time 16 hours at least twice a week. I dont have any one to watch my child those many hours. I went to the union with my problem and they told me this is law enforcment and you have to do overtime! Before I resigned from the job I went out on disability for two months I was so stressed out from the overtime and wondering what to do. I knew if i went back to the job they were going to fire me because i couldnt do the overtime so I handed in my papers and resigned. I told them the reason and that i wanted to work but couldn't do the overtime. When I first started the job i signed papers saying i can do overtime but now i have a baby and also back then i never did that much overtime! Do you think the judge we will be in favor. I can work just not that many hours
Your case could go either way. The general rule is if you quit you don't get unemployment compensation unless there was good cause to caue attributable to the employer which would cause a reasonable person to quit under the circumstances. I would argue that your employer's efforts to force you to work overtime conflicted with your obligation to care for your baby and constituted good cause for you to quit. Moreover, if you can prove that the employer was "going to fire you," that would strengthen your case allowing you to argue that you quit in lieu of being discharged.
I had a job with ups as a seasonal worker, for 1 month they told me that its a seasonal job and i would be fired at the end of december, they have said that if you do good they will hire you permanently, i have gotten 2 reccomendation letters, i was just wondering if i do quilify for unemployment benefits? Tahnks
The law covering seasonal workers is complicated. In brief, if the employer informs the worker that his work is seasonal AND when the employer lays the worker off provides him reasonable assurance that he will be re-employed in the next season, the worker is NOT eligible for unemployment compensation. However, if the employer does NOT re-hire the worker in the following season, the worker, if he meets all other requirements, may be eligible for retroactive benefits for each week that the unemployed worker previously filed for benefits.
So, in my opinion, it would be in your interest to go ahead and apply for benefits and continue to certify during the seasonal layoff, and if you are not re-hired next season you should be eligible for benefits. You have nothing to lose by filing for benefits.
I worked for Ford Motor Co in Louisville, Ky and felt pressured to take a buyout that was offered. I was under the impression that I would be layed off if I didn't take it because I had less than 10 years in and jobs had to be cut. I was denied unemployment due to a voluntary separation and not due to lack of work. I had received information in the mail stating that I may qualify for TAA/TRA benefits due to the nature of my separation. After applying for those benefits, I was denied that too because I had not exhausted my unemployment benefits. I have been fighting and appealing the decision that was made by UI. At this stage I am in the middle of appealing to the Kentucky Unemloyment Insurance Commision. I do feel my separation was due to lack of work. Since I left the company a shift has been cut out and down weeks have followed. It was a very stressful time period near the end of my employment. If I didn't take the buyout I was in fear of being layed off and unable to make ends meet. I would just like some insight on my case. Are there other cases out there like mine who have been granted their unemployment?
Thank you for your time.
js
Off the top of my head I don't have an answer for you. I'll try research it later today and get back with you. My impression is that you deserve UC but will have a hard time winning your case. However, I'm not familiar with the UC statute and court cases in Kentucky.
I wasn't able to find any court cases like yours. I don't think you'll be eligible because your departure will be considered a voluntary leaving from your job at Ford. However, it doesn't cost anything to appeal the Agency's ruling. There are lots of people in the same boat with you, and I assume there will be other appeals and court decisions. If you do appeal continue to certify by calling Marvin as long as your appeal is open.
Ralph, I was recently terminated for inappropriate Internet use. I have a side business, where I sale lingerie, massage oils, etc. I have used the company Internet a few times to check on orders. The website is not explicit or X Rated or anything like that. Prior to my termination, I was giving a promotion, when I was told I had got the new position, I was asked not to tell anyone until The supervisor had a chance to get the budget approved. That same day I received 2 packages, I was asked to take a call from HR. I was asked about my business, and was asked to get my packages, when I did, 2 supervisors opened the packeges, and told the HR person what was in them. 1 contained a binder. the other was air freshner. HR then said, it was aginst policy to have packages delv. I explained I was not aware, and that everyone includding the supervisors had packages delv. She said she would investigate and get back with me. ( Let me also mention, I am an African-American) A few days later, I was terminated for inappropriate internet use. The lady from HR was hispanic,their were 2 other hispanic ladies that were close to the lady in HR that were after me for that position. I have never missed a day from work, I exceeded all of the goals and exspectations that the company exspected of me. I have never been written up or given a warning for anything. My unemployment was denied, I was force to give up my Apartment. I am living off of my savings, I just want to know if this sounds like a act of discremenation, should I appeal the unemployment descion. I was denied for unauthorized internet use, but my discharge papers say, inappropriate internet use. Please help, If their is a lawyer out there that can help me, please contact me. (for other readers, please be advised, the mentioning of the Ethnical background or race, was not used to offend anyone)
thanks
It's hard to offer an opinion about your case without seeing the case file. Here are some questions that have a bearing on your case: 1. Was there a written policy against using the Internet from the office?
2. What did it say?
3. Were you given a copy or otherwise informed of the policy?
4. Was there actually a policy against receiving packages or mail at the office?
5. Was the policy in writing?
6. If so, what did it say? 7. Did you receive a copy of the policy or were you otherwise informed of the policy?
8. Was the policy regarding using the Internet uniformly applied to everyone in the office?
9. Or, to your knowledge did others occasionaly use the company email to communicate with spouses or friends or others?
[I recall a case involving an auto company where a long service employee was fired for emailing his girl friend. And at the hearing his supervisor admitted he also used the email to communicate with his spouse. The claimant had never been warned or informed of the policy. He was found eligible for benefits.]
10. Had you used the company email previously and been warned not to do so?
11. Can you testify honestly that you did not use the email often or at any time neglect your job with your employer? Did you primarily use the email during breaks, lunch or lulls in your work?
12. Can the employer produce a a record of how frequently you used the company email for your business or personal reasons? If they can produce at the hearing a long list if personal or business emails, it will hurt your case.
You know the answers to he above questions and they will help evaluate your chances of being found eligible for benefits. It doesn't cost anything to apply and appeal to an administrative law judge.
Mr. Deeds,
I was working part time at a motel while I attended college full time. When I was hired, my employer knew I was attending college. I started in March as a third shift employee. I told my employer that I would have a new schedule for school in the fall.
I was in my last semester and one of the classes that I needed to take was only offered in the morning monday through thursday. I called the other midnight employee and asked her if it would be alright if I worked thursday through saturday night and she would work during the week, she agreed. I then called my employer and made sure if it was alright with them, they said that was fine.
When school started I noticed that my name was on the schedule for work during the week. I called my employer and she said that she forgot and to switch with the other midnight girl. During the first few weeks of school they had hired a new employer and I was informed that she was a floater. She ended up with my shifts and I was told it was just until she gets the hang of things. At this time the other midnight girl was on a one week vacation, so I thought the new employee was to cover that shift. Just in case, I called my employeer and asked if I would be getting my hours back and she said yes.
I was still getting scheduled during the week and the new girl was getting my weekends. I called againg to see if there was a problem and she said no and that she is just busy and forgot again and to switch.
Needles to say I called my employer to ask for a day off and she informed me that it was too hard to schedule me so they were not going to put me on the schedule for awhile. She also told me that I was not fired and maybe I can work during Christmas break. When I filed for Unemployment benefits it was denied because I was fired for misconduct.
I do have a hearing in March, I was wondering if I have a pretty good case of receiving my benefits?
It's hard to express an opinion on your eligibility without reading the file and seeing what the employer told the agency. Nothing in what you have said above appears to me to be misconduct. However, they may also have listed other possible disqualifers on the Notice of Hearing such as not available for full time work. There are some Michigan cases that say that to be "available" under the unemployment statute means that employees must be able and willing to accept full time work on any shift. However, you have nothing to lose by going to the hearing and putting in your case. If the hearing is in Michigan, the state will pay for a qualified attorney or advocate to assist you in presenting your case at the Administrative Law Judge hearing.
[Sorry I was slow in replying. I was out of town for three days.]
Mr. Deeds,
Thank you for responding. When I was hired they knew I was in school and I expressed to them that I wanted only three days a week. They said that was fine becuase they were only looking for someone to work three days a week. Also, only one person works full time and that is the day shift. I was told that I can work anything out with the other midnight employee, they did not care as long as it was covered.
I did request for an advocate to represent me. I received a list of advocates, I called everyone of them and not one person can help me. I have to represent myself.
One more question I would like to ask. I missed my scheduled time to call Marvin. I saw on the UIA website that if I miss a call there were make up days or open calling on Thursday and Friday's. If I miss my scheduled time to call Marvin and call on a make up day, will I be disqualified if I do not have a good enough reason?
No. The make-up day is to allow claimants another chance to certify if they have failed for any reason to do so on their designated day.
I'm surprised that you have been unable to find an advocate unless your hearing is in a remote part of the state. Many advocates are reluctant to travel very far because of the high price of gasoline and because the Unemployment Agency recently cut the advocate's pay for a hearing and consultation by one-third.
If you can't get an advocate going to your appeal hearing may still be worthwhile. The administrative law judge has the duty of assuring that unrepresented claimants and/or employers get a fair hearing. In other words, the judge will, in effect, act as your representative. Be sure and get to the hearing on time!
Hi Ralph,
Finding your site was the best thing that has happened regarding my very difficult unemployment experience beginning last May. Actually, beginning Sept 2006.
I left my job voluntarily, for reasons of ongoing and worsening harasment from a new supervisor with whom a few times I had to go over his head. (he was retaliating)
Unemployment first found in my favor, but $3100.00 later they found in my employers favor. Employer said that I left as they were trying to work things out, which was totally a fabrication. UI wants me to pay the money back.
I appealed to the ALJ and chose an advocate. Once he got the case number, I may have talked to him about 15 minutes in total about my case. I didn't know how to work with him or the process, I left it up to him to take the lead.
I lost my case with the ALJ.
I then appealed to the BOR. (Michigan) I submitted my appeal 8 days before the deadline date.
That was last October. Since then, there have been long periods of silence, until finally they're claiming that they did not receive my appeal until a week after the due date. I have asked for a rehearing, and though I did not send the original appeal certified mail (Grrrrr) I do have proof of date of postage paid. I sent them supporting documentation that I mailed it in a timely manner. Today I just received their denial to hear my case. Because of lack of jurisdiction.
I'm not sure what to do now. My husband and I are both unemployed. We are only making ends meet by cashing in some investments from my x employer. To think about going back in front of the ALJ, is completely overwhelming to me, as I barely could say anything in my own defense, and my avocate didn't seem to care at all.
This whole experience has be devastating, beginning with losing my job. I still don't think anyone has even heard me as to why I left. When they sent the statement of determinations, I'm left wondering where they got their information. It seems that even though I wrote my side of the story, no one is reading it. I did not leave my job because of few simple reasons, it was very complicated. I can't sum it up in 50 words or less.
I can't pay that money back! Will they take our investment money? Will they take the money from the government checks that we all are getting, that is meant to help the economy?
This is extremely upsetting. It seems like no matter what I do, there is a loop hole to disregard it.
I would really appreciate your insight Ralph.
Many Thanks,
Bridget
I'm sorry to hear that you had such an unfortunate experience with your unemployment compensation. The unemployment statute is like a maze that claimants have to find their way through in a limited amount of time. In my experience, the Unemployment Agency's determinations and redeterminations are frequently incorrect and often as not reversed by administrative law judge decisions. The people who make the determinations should be required to sign their name to their work. It might make them more careful. Some of them seem not even to believe in the unemployment compensation system. The ALJs are usually much better although sometimes their decisions are reversed by the Board of Review. However, the Board of Review sticks pretty close to the rule that appeals must be RECIEVED within 30 days of the date of the ALJ's decision. Someone at the Board should have checked the postmark on your appeal letter because there is precedent for the Board to take jurisdiction of appeals that have been delayed for significant periods in the mail. You could appeal the Board's ruling to the Circuit Court nearest you. You can find out about the procedure from the clerk of the court. A lawyer is not required but having one would be helpful. However, you would probably have to pay him or her more than you are able.
My understanding of the Agency's restitution collection procedures is that they don't turn you over to a collection agency or try to take your house or car. They are agreeable to negotiating stretched out payment plans. If you are unable to do this they will take any money that they figure you owe out of any state income tax refunds that are due to you and/or 20% of any future unemployment compensation payments for which you may be eligible. Also, the unemployment insurance statute provides that "the commission may waive recovery of an improperly paid benefit if the payment was not the fault of the individual and if repayment would be contrary to equity and good conscience."
Drayton v Showcase, No. 64272 (Mich App April 6, 1983). covers waivers of restitution by the Agency.
FACTS: The claimant was determined eligible for unemployment benefits and received $268. On November 7, 1978, "The MESC determined that claimant was in fact, ineligible for such benefits and ordered her to repay the $268."
By virtue of the 1980 amendment in Section 62a effective January 1, 1981, the MESC was give discretion to waive restitution.
DECISION: The MESC must exercise "its discretion on the restitution issue."
RATIONALE: "The Michigan Employment Security Act is remedial. I'ts primary purpose is to relieve the stress of economic insecurity. Godsol v Unemployment Compensation Commisstion v Wayne State University. Where an amendment is designed to correct an existing law, it is generally remedial and will be given retroactive effect, Lahti v Fosterling 357 Mich 578.
"Because the amendment is to be construed retroactively, the MESC had the discretion to waive restitution. However, it has not exercised its discretion.
"We are remanding this case to the MESC to exercise its discretion and to reevaluate its decision in the light of the amendment and this opinion. The MESC must consider [claimant's] indigence in this case in exercising its discretion."
Disclaimer: I am a lay advocate, not a lawyer. I have not read your case file. Therefore I am not able to accept responsibility for the above information although I believe it to be correct.
If you appeal the Board's ruling to a Circuit Court you could cite Bertels v Ironwood Products Co., No. 74-133 AE, Gogebic Circuit Court (January 25, 1978). In that case the Circuit Court held that where an appeal is late because the United States Postal Service took nine days to deliver a letter of appeal between two cities in Michigan, and there is other evidence of poor mail service between the two points, the postal delay constitutes and administrative clerical error.
FACTS: The claimant mailed a letter of appeal in Bessemer, Michigan, on October 23, 1973. The deadline for appealing was October 26, 1973. The letter was delivered to the Appeal Board in Detroit on November 1, 1973. The appeal was rejected as untimely. A subsequent request for reopening was denied by the Referee. The claimant's copy of the order of denial was apparently lost in the mail. The Appeal board affirmed the denial.
DECISION: The claimant has good cause for late appeal.
RATIONALE: "While I assume that the provisions of Regulation 270 relating to administrative clerical errors relates to the M.E.S.C., the fact that the United States Postal Service took nine days to deliver a letter from Bessemer, Michigan, to Detroit, Michigan, containing the Claim of Appeal of the Plaintiff here, it certainly could constitute a clerical error of some kind insofar as the Postal Service is concerned."
"It would appear at least, that mail communication between Bessemer, Michigan, and Detroit, Michigan, leave much to be desired. As stated in the brief of the Defendant, M.E.S.C., the term good cause as used in the Act presents a mixed question of law and fact. This court does not believe that one administrative agency of our State Government can hold the failure of an administrative agency of the Federal government to promptly deliver mail does not constitute good cause for reopening..."
Alternatively you might be able to cite the above case in another request for reopening of your case or for the Board to take jurisdiction. I'm an advocate and we don't handle anything beyond the ALJ hearings. And I'm rusty on the appeals procedures beyond the ALJs.
I'm disappointed to hear that your advocate apparently didn't devote sufficient time to your case. I would not hesitate to let the Agency know about his or her lack of preparation if that is the case. However, resignations are not easy cases to win because the case law presumes that a reasonable person will find another job before quitting the one he has unless there is a very good reason for quitting attributable to the employer, AFTER, the employer has been notified of the complaint and given the opportunity to address it.
Dear Ralph,
Your speedy and extensive reply has given me hope that there just might be competent, caring people with integrity in leadership positions in our State. I only wish I had chosen you to be my advocate when I needed one!
I have printed your reply and will take some time to study it. I really appreciate your help Ralph.
Its so unfair. They can say this without proving it with the postmark. I mailed my appeal 5 days before the due date. I can't help it if the mail delivery had problems.
In all honestly, had a strong feeling that the delay was an admin error in lansing where I sent it. Because the lady (maryanne) who I spoke with last November even said "there's been an error somewhere with the transcription. But Don't worry, they will get to it." I said " I'm very concerned that they won't look at my case." She said "Oh....you're being foolish." She brushed me off saying I'll hear from them in four more weeks. (At that point, it had already being three weeks since I mailed it.) She was extremely degrading.
For the record, the last thing I wanted to do was to leave my job that I had every intention and hope of retire from. I was very rooted in the company. I was ultimately worn down and provoked to either leave or go "postal". I DID try to resolve the issue at least five times within the year prior to leaving. In other words I was crying for help for a year and no one would step in and help me with that supervisor.
I'm sure that any resonable person would have resigned. In fact, several others before me did just that.
Thank you very much for taking the time to help me with this! It really does help.
Bridget
My husband a union sheet metal worker who is now laid off. He is now recieving unemployment. He is thinking of going back to college to pursue another career becaues he keeps getting laid off more and more becuase of the economy. If he goes back to college part time while he is laid off will he still be eligible for unemployment? One of the questions MARVIN ask if is you are attending school. We can't afford to lose any of his compensation so we just would like to know.
Thanks for any help you can give. Denise
In Michigan the answer to your question is "It depends."
Here are three cases on the issue:
In Duell v St Joseph Hospital the ruling was in favor of the claimant. The Board of Review held that "A full-time college student's credible testimony of willingness to change courses or quit school, to accept full-time employment, is competen t proof of the claimant's eligibility.
FACTS: The claimant resigned his position at a Grand Rapids hospital because he was living, and attendint full-time college courses in East lansing. He testified he would change his class schedule or drop out of school in order to accept permanent full-time work.
Rationale: "The referee, in his reasons for decision, indicated that he tended to believe the claimant's testimony with respect to dropping his classes if he had been offered full-time work."
The Board of Review: "The majority of the Board of Review believes that the case entitled Michael S. Breshgold v Michigan Employment Security Commission, Civil Action No. 77-708893-AE (Wayne County Circuit Court 1978) is controlling. The holding in the Breshgold case states that because a claiman is a full-time student does not categorically mean that the student has necessarily placed limitations on his availability so as to remove him from the labor market. Under that case, the testimony of the claimant, to the effect that he would adjust his hours or quit school to accept full-time employment, would be sufficient, if credible."
Breshgold v MESC, No. 77-708893AE "In order to be eligible for unemployemnt benefits, an individual must be unemployed and make reasonable efforts to find work. An individual need not be idle and is not required to look for work daily for 8 hours a day.
FACTS: Claimant was enrolled as a full time student, taking daytime college courses (17 credits). He asserted he was available for full time work and would rearrange his class schedule or quit school if he found full-time employment. He testified that he had worked full-time and attended school full-time in the past. The referee found, and the Board of Review majority agreed, that claimant was primarily a student and was not genuinely attached to the labor market because he only searched for employment when this did not interfere with his schooling.
DECISION: rEMAND FOR HEARING ON CLAIMANT'S JOB SEEKING EFFORTS.
RATIONALE: Where a claimant asserts he is actively seeking work, it is incumbent on the trier of fact to explore those job seeking efforts. Availability cannot be determined solely by the fact that a claimant is pursuing educational goals while unemployed. Attachment to the labor market is largely a function of the individual's efforts to obtain employment.
Schontala v Engine Power Components, Ottawa Circuit Court, No. 86-8221-AE October 1987
Circuit Court holding: Where claimant asserted he was available for full time work but showed by his actions that, in fact, he was not, he did not meeth the availability requirement for eligibility.
FACTS: After working full time for the employer for over a year, claimant requested reduction to part-time status but shortly thereafter was laid off due to lack of work for part-time employees. Claimant was attending school and placed numerous applications for part-time work. He applied for benefits while still in school when he could not find any part-time work. Claimant asserted that he would accept full-toime employemtn but Referee did not find his testimony credible.
DECISION: Claimant is ineligible for benefits.
RATIONAL: Determination fo genui9ne attachment to the labor market is made by means of a subjective test which looks at the actions of the individual. In this case, claimant quit his full time employment, requested part-time status, enrolled in school nearly full-time, and subsequently applied for part-time work.
Your husband has a bit of a leg up because he was laid off and was found eligible for unemployment compensation. He did not request part-time work or quit his job to go back to school. Enrollment in school, per se is not disqualifying. He should not hesitate to enroll in school part-time and continue to certify to Marvin that he is available and seeking employment. If his availability for work is questioned by an employer appeal because he is in school, his position should be that he is continuing to look for full-time employment while he is in school and that he would be willing to adjust his school schedule if need be in order to accept a job. He should also keep track of his efforts to seek employment so that he would be able, if need be, to testify credibly that he is available for work.
Mr. Deeds: You provide a wealth of helpful information for folks in Michigan. I was wondering if you know of a similar resource for Indiana. I have a friend who was just denied her benefits in her first appeal. She has 18 days to submit an appeal to this decisioin. She is interested in knowing if there are advocates for this purpose in Indiana, as there are in Michigan? The advocacy support system was very helpful in my winning a lengthy appeal back in 2001-2002 in Michigan. A Google search has not revealed any similar support system in Indiana. Any information you can provide wopuld be greatly appreciated and extremely helpful.
Sorry, I do not. Unemployment compensation laws and court cases are similar from state to state but not identical. Michigan court cases do not apply in Indiana. However, the court precedents there may be similar. I doubt that Indiana has an advocates program. Michigan is one of the few states that has such a program, and there are rumors that Michigan is going to terminate our program due to budget constraints. Our compensation was recently cut by one-third. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
I would encourage your friend to appeal for an administrative law judge hearing. In Michigan the Unemployment Agency's determinations are frequently reversed by Administrative Law Judges (referees). In Michigan the ALJs are obligated to assist unrepresented claimants to get a fair hearing. That's probably true in Indiana.
Thank you for your prompt reply. I will keep looking.
I wrote you about a week and a half ago about my husband going to college when while he is laid off. He has gone back to college and when he called in for his unemployment he had to call the 800 number to talk to them about it. They said they would have to investigate whether he can still work fuill time while he goes to college. He told them he is only going part time and most of that will be online. The classes he has to take on campus can be taken in the evenings or at night. He told them all this and she said it would take a minimum seven to 10 days to investigate and then they would make a determination. We just wondered what that means. They never asked him what school he attended. He is a union worker so he is called back to work from the union hall. He told them he would give them the number so they could verify with the hall his normal working hours but they didn't want to info. So we wondered how do they investigate it and how long will it take. And once they make the determination how long will we have to wait for the check we should have received last week. We do live in Michigan. I forgot to mention that before.
I don't know how long the investigation will take. Usually, their investigations consist of checking with the employer whose account is being charged to see if they have any objections. The people who make the Agency's determinations and re-determinations make a plenty of mistakes. If the determination goes against your husband I would recommend that he appeal, requesting a hearing before an administrative law judge. Their decisions are usually much better than Unemployment Agency determinations. Your husband's case is not a slam dunk, but in my opinion, the law is on his side. He will have to convince the judge that he is available and looking for work in line with his experience and ability and that he will adjust his part-time course load if necessary to accept a job offer. Good luck. [If you think of it, keep us posted on how your husband's case turns out. We all learn from experience. I would be interested and perhaps others as well who access this web page.]
Hi, I am just updating you about the situation with my husband's unemployment. He did end up being able to continue receiving his unemployment. He called after the initial 10 days were up and they said it was resolved but somehow got lost in the system and they would send out the check the next day they apoligized for the delay. So everything did work out. Thanks for the information.
Glad to hear that. Thanks for the update.
Dear Ralph,
I have a question as to whether I would receive unemployment compensation. I recently have been terminated from my job due to "Destruction of company property". A touch screen diagnostic computer that is used everyday by 8 different people, including myself, accidently broke when I attempted to use it. When I turned the unit on I found it was not responding and I noticed the screen was slightly discolored. When I pressed on the touch screen it cracked. My employer wanted me to pay for half the cost of the unit because he felt I broke it. I did not agree to pay for it so my employment was terminated.
It says in my emploee handbook "Employees causing damage to the company's property and equipment may be subject to disciplinary action up to and including immediate termination. This includes loss or damage due to carlessness, negligence, improper use, or unsafe practices. Monetary reimbursement to the company may also be required if applicable."
Do you think I am eligable for unemployment even though my employer gave me the option to pay for half the cost and I did not take it? Also, do you think my claim wil be denied for misconduct even though I feel the unit accidently broke?
I appreciate your time answering my question.Thanks,Lee
Yes. I think you should be eligible. To disqualify you the company would have to show that you intentionally damaged the screen. The standard of misconduct is wilful or wanton disregard of the employer's interest. Tell the unemployment agency exactly what happened, emphasizing that 1. The damage may have been caused by one of the other people who use the computer and 2. You caused the crack accidentally, not intentionally, while trying to get the computer to work. If the agency's determination and/or re-determination go against you, appeal to an administrative law judge hearing. I've seen cases where truck drivers had accidents causing thousands of dollars of damage and were found eligible for UC. If you think of it let us know how your case turns out.
I was offered a voluntary severence package with the company I worked for for over 10 years.I asked the question before I took their offer If I do not take this package,is there a chance you would have future layoffs with no severence package offered? They said yes,so I took the package.I feel I did not quit,but was sort of pressured into making the decision to take the severence package.At the end of my severence I should be able to get unemployment benefits.The company even said I could apply when I was considering.
Eligibility is determined by the UC agency, not the employer. It would be helpful to your case, however, if the company did not protest your eligibility for benefits. You will have to convince the agency that 1) the company approached you with the offer and 2) gave you the impression that you would be laid off if you didn't accept the offer. After you apply for benefits, your employer will receive a request for information about the circumstances and terms of your separation. There are a lot of people in Michigan in your circumstances who may be applying for benefits, and there will likely be appeals in some of these cases. I have not seen any recent court decisions yet. However, in 1990 in Coleman v. MESC, the court of appeals ruled that where a claimant who is given a choice among reasonable alternatives decides to accept a "buyout" he is subject to disqualification." In this case a GM employee at a warehouse that was being closed was offered three alternatives: 1) accept a transfer to another GM location 50 miles away; 2) a layoff of one year with benefits; 3) a buy-out of $50,000. The claimant chose the buyout. He was disqualified from eligibility for UC for "voluntary leaving." My impression is that your chances of being declared eligible are less than 50-50, but you have nothing to lose by applying for benefits.
Elliott, here is an excellent article from today's Detroit Free Press by Michael Harper and Joshua Riley on the effect of buyouts on eligibility for unemployment compensation benefits. I agree with the authors' conclusions that the law is unclear and that workers who accept buyouts should be eligible for benefits. Read the article here:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080425/OPINION02/804250339/1068/OPINION
Hello Ralph! My husband's employer wants to cut his pay 20% because he's having a slow period. It's a small company and his employer has over-hired. No one else in the co. is affected. My husband is his General Manager and highest paid. He's been there six years. The employer will do anything possible to avoid paying unemployment taxes and virtually refuses to fire people. We feel his is cutting his pay to make him quit, thus effectively keeping my husband from filing for unemployment benefits. Are individuals typically successful in filing in this type of situation?
Yes. There are several court decisions ruling that a significant pay cut is "good cause for resignation attributable to the employer." In "Wasolaskus (Tom's Grandville Station, 1978 BR55248" the Board of Review ruled that "A 17 percent reduction in wages is good cause for voluntarily leaving part-time work."
RATIONALE: jack Desser, d/b/a/ Jack Desser Biscuit Company v Appeal Board, Wayne County Circuit , No. 324-748 (July 5, 1962) held that a 'substantial reduction' in wages can constitute 'good cause' for quitting one's employment. The 'substantial' reduction in Desser consisted of a 20 percent reduction in claimant's gross commissions. The curtailment of hours imposed by employer upon claimant in this case would have reduced his income by approximately 17 percent if he had continued his employment. The reduction in wages was 'substantial.'
"The part-time nature of claimant's employment does not, per se alter the substantiality of the reduction in claimant's wages."
An employee was terminated because it was found he violated company policies, including falsification of time sheets, saying he was at work when he was really observed at a bar and at home, etc... We appealed the admin judge's determination and provided proof of above, yet the admin judge ruled in his favor again on the redetermination. I know we can appeal, but just what does it take to prove gross misconduct? Do you think presenting our findings to a judge in erson will have any bearing on the outcome?
You may well get a better decision in an administrative law judge hearing. It's not at all uncommon for Unemployment Agency redeterminations to be reversed in administrative law judge hearings. The agency employees who make the determinations and reteterminations are not judges. Their workload is big, the information on which they base their decsions is often incomplete and conflicting with the result that they make a lot of mistakes.
You have nothing to lose by requesting a hearing before an Administrative Law Judge. However, the burden is on you to prove with more than hearsay evidence that the misconduct occurred. This means that you will have to provide in person testimony at the hearing establishing the facts on which your decision to discharge the employee were based. Intentionally falsifying timesheets are, in my opinion, misconduct under the unemployment compensation statute. But the burden of proof is on the employer.
Hi, I left an 8 year job in construction to take another job. After 5 months the new employer told me my position was no longer financially possible. I started my own business now in construction 4 weeks ago, but ut will be sometime before I actually make an income from this business. I have been receiving UC and was told I am eligible so long as I don't have an income, even though I own my own business. Is this true? If so, when I do my first job do I tell MARVIN I am working?
Thanks
Jeremy
The court cases go both ways on these kinds of cases depending on the facts. In order to continue your eligibility for UC you must continue to be attached to the labor market, that is seeking work and willing to accept work in your profession.
In Bolles v. Employment Security Commission the Michigan Supreme Court held..."the test properly to be employed is that of genuine attachment to the labor market."
Facts: Claimants were laid off by employer. Each had been trained in watch repair work and each had at one time or another engaged in this occupation. Consequently, they pooled their resources, rented a building, remodeled and redecorated, and opened it for business under the name of Muskegon Jewleers. They advertised and they did what work they could get. It wasn't much. Each averaged about a dollar a day over the period in question. During the period of 7 weeks of operation claimants reported a total gain each of around $60...During this time both claimants were actively seeking work in industry; both aplied, unsuccessfully, for jobs referred to them by the Employment Security Commission, and both drew their unemployment compensation.
Rationale: ....all courts would undoubtedly agree that the Act was not intended to place a premium on idleness, to stifle initiative, or to penaliize a laid-off worker's attempt to make his time economically productive. The claimants, subsequent to their layoff continued seeking work. Each was ready, willing and able and anxious to continue work in industry. They were genuinely attached to the labor market, neither casually nor as a matter of transition. Their meager efforts to augment their unemployment checks did not break their attachment to the labor market.
In High Scope Educational Research Foundation v Easton the Washtenaw Circuit Court held
Where an unemployed person becomes the proprietor of an antique shop, but remains able and available and continues to seek work, the claimant is still attached to the labor market.
Facts: The claimant was laid off from full time employment. While still unemployed, he invested $3500 and opened an antique shop. The claimant continued to look for work at numerous places, made arrangements for someone to fill in for him if necessary, and was willing to give up the shop if he found suitable employment.
Decision: The claimant was genuinely attached to the labor market.
Koehler v General Motors, Oakland Circuit Court held
where a claimant worked full-time for a self-owned business he was not unemployed within the meaning of Section 48 of the MES ACt. Moreover, when a claimant is preoccupied with developing his own business, putting in hours equivalent to full-time work, he is not available within the meaining of Section 28(1)c.
FACTS: Claimant was a part-owner of an irrigation company. While collecting unemployment benefits, the claimant worked for his company in excess of 40 hours per week and received distributions from profits. During this period claimant sought other work but his efforts were infrequent and indifferent. Claimant did not receive a paycheck from this company but did pay personal expenses out of the business's account.
DECISION: The claimant was not unemployed within the meaning of the Act. Claimant was properly subject to the penalties for fraud.
RATIONALE: Where the claimant is not ready, willing able and anxious to resume work in industry, his efforts should be considered startup as opposed to self-help. With respect to availability, the claimant's indifferent job search efforts established he was not truly attached to the labor market and therefore not available within the meaining of the Act. In light of his representations to the Agency that he was not employed and his failure to disclose his connection to or responsibilities with his business, the assessment of penalties and sanctions was correct.
Hey Ralph,
I need your help. Im a college student thats been with popular retail hardware company for almost 2 years wiht a great work record. I transfered stores back to my home town for the summer. Today I just got accused of stealing money because i am a cashier currently but i know i have never stole a single penny. They even showed me the tape they had of me but there was no proof and i am inncent but regardless the money is gone somehow and for some reason beyond me they told me not to come back. I have no idea what to do. I need money desperately and If i cant find another job do i have a responsible claim for unemployment? the way i see it is 'Fired without out reasonable cause'? What do to you think.? I need to know.
You have nothing to lose by filing for unemployment compensation. The company will have to prove their charge against you. You will probably have to through a determination, a redetermination and an appeal to and administrative law judge hearing because the Unemployment Agency will probably go a long with your employer's accusation.
well ralph.... i have a question. what happens when a person gets caught receiving earnings and also claiming unemployment benifits at the same time? what are the steps involved after receiving the predetermination notification. not contesting the earnings nor the benefits. the facts that they have are correct with the records that a person has. any help is greatly appreciated.
You won't go to jail, but there are fairly sever penalties in Michigan and most states for intentional fraud in applying for UC benefits.
in most cases do they require you to repay 4x the amount? or in all cases? yikes!!!! no question they are correct in their findings.
The Michigan statute provides for the following penalties for "knowing false statements":
If the amount obtained as a result of the knowing false statement is less than $500, the commission may recover the amount obtained and may also recover damages equal to 2 times that amount.
$500 or more--recover the amount obtained and damages equal to 4 times that amount.
$1,000 to $25,000--If the amount obtained or withheld from payment as a result of theknowing false statement or representation or the knowing and willful failure to disclose a material fact is $1,000 or more but less than $25,000, then one of the following:
--Imprisonment for not more than one year
--Performance of community service of not more than 1 year but not to exceed 2080 hours.
--A combination of community service and imprisonment that does not exceed one year
I don't have any experience with these kinds of cases. My impression is that jail sentences are uncommon, but that the Unemployment Agency does take steps to recover the overpayments and quadruple damages. If you don't have the money to make full restitution, I believe they allow installment payments. Also, they arrange to deduct amounts you owe from any Michigan income tax refunds which may be due you in the future and a portion of any future unemployment compensation payments for which you may be eligible.
I was fired from my job,due to me not taking the employers verbal abuse and threats and standing up for myself.I filed for unemployment like i was suppose to,however my employer claimed i quit,which isnt true,i even called numerous times over a 2 week period to see if i could come back to work,my employer never returned my phone calls or messages.
I filed a protest of determination and faxed it over to unemployment,i called after about 2 weeks and they said they received it and i'd hear something within the next 4 weeks,well today the 4 weeks was up and i heard nothing so i called back unemployment and they stated they never received my fax for the protest,4 weeks earlier i was told they did,my question is what do i do now,besides re-faxing it,because of their mistake(i have the reciept or copy showing i faxed it) am i going to have to wait an additonal 4 weeks again to hear anything back from them,im behind in bills now as it is because of this long dragged out process with unemployement and my former employer lying.
Is there anything i can do to speed up the process or hear something back as soon as possible?? I cant afford to not recieve my unemployement or wait another 4 weeks to hear something. Thanks
You may want to call the Unemployment Agency and explain the situation to the representative again, and then follow up with another fax and a registered letter with a copy of your fax and and receipt, addressed, by name to the person with whom you talked. Keep a good record of all telephone and written contacts with the agency. If that doesn't work you may find it helpful to contact your state representative and/or senator in the legislature. If you can get either of them to contact the Employment Agency it might speed up your case.
Hi,
I was fired in Oct 2007 because I was hurt on the job and the agency refused to reasonably accomadate me for a permenate work related physical disability. I was able to recieve unemployment benifits. Then a MSPB judge ordered the agency to return me back to duty, give me back pay, and give me reasonable accoms. The agency then offered me a position that was no where the same as I had in the past. It was a 12:00 - 8:00 pm shift I had been working 8:00-$4:30pm, it was a posted position at a higher level of pay than I had recieved in the past and the new hires recieve the higher pay, but I was getting payed less than the new employess and I have 10 years of service. I also had filed an EEO because of discrimmination of a known phys. disability. The EEO was accepted into the formal stage in Oct 2007 just before they fired me. So the only way that I would be allowed to return back to work was on the night shift, work for less money but do the same job, and drop the EEO complaint. The agency also payed back the unemployment benefits from my back pay befor they payed me anything. So now unemployment says that I have to pay back all of the taxes because the agecy says it's the employees responseability. So know I have gotten fired again for not taking the agency's offer and I tried to reapply for unemployment and not sure yet if it's been approved. But I also had the taxes taken out of each check and the agency took out all taxes from my retro pay. So am I still responable to pay the taxes a 3rd time?? And because I refused to drop the EEO complaint will I be able to collect unemployment??
You've asked several questions that are beyond my knowledge and experience. With regard to your last question about collecting unemployment compensation-- wether or not you are eligible will depend on all the facts of your case. I don't believe "not taking the agency's offer" would constitute disqualifying misconduct under the unemployment compensation statute. It doesn't cost anything to apply. Sorry I'm not able to provide you with better answers to your questions. Good luck.
I worked for a company for almost 3 years and then was suddenly let go for "falsification of company records". Basically that means that on my intial application with the company (3 years ago) I did not list I was terminated from a previous employer (which i was). I live and work in the state of michigan. Will the unemployment department deem me as ineligble for unemployment becuase of this?
Material falsification on an employment application is considered disqualifying misconduct. However, after a reasonable period of satisfactory employment some judges may not rule that you are ineligible for unemployment compensation based on an omission on your employment application. Sometimes employers who need to cut costs fire people and call it misconduct rather than a layoff. If I were representing you at a hearing I would ask the employer witness 1. Why it took so long for them to discover the omission from your application and 2. Whether or someone was hired to replace you after you were fired or whether your duties were reassigned to someone else already working for the company. If someone was not hired to replace you that would be an indication that the employer's action was in reality a layoff cloaked in the guise of misconduct. I think your case could go either way. Probably the odds are that you will be ruled ineligible. However, it doesn't cost anything but your time to file an appeal and go before an administrative law judge.
My husband was employed at a company that contracted him out to a third party as part of their salesforce. The third party decided to 'let go' him and a number of other contractors. In a meeting with his manager, he was given the option to resign and accept two weeks pay (and, incidently, to be the agent responsible for returning samples, literature, and the company car) or be fired. At that meeting, he gave no commitment either way. Later, when he finally was able to talk with HR he found out that the manager had already stated that he had submitted a verbal resignation and that this is what they would tell unemployment when contacted.
My husband has filed and has consistently stated in the 'reasons for' sections that the reason for his resignation was 'resigned after being told company and third party I was contracted to no longer needed my services'. His actual resignation letter also states that these are the circumstances of termination. Under these circumstances - essentially a forced resignation - is it typical to be denied benefits? We are in Washington State and have never had difficulty before with benefits as a result of termination, I'm just worried that the label 'resigned' forced upon him is going to mess things up.
I am in Michigan, and I am not familiar with the law in Washington. However, most states are similar. In Michigan I would advise your husband to appeal the UC agancy's determination to an administrative law judge hearing. Employers here sometimes use the same old "resignation trick" in an effort to disqualify people from unemployment compensation. He obviously didn't resign and should be disqualified from benefits only for the two weeks' separation pay, or possibly only for the week in which he received the check. Your husband should appeal the decision in my opinion. At any rate he would be eligible in Michigan. Good luck.
I held an appointed supervisory position with a municipality for 11 years. When a new administration was elected, I was first renamed as a "temp" assignment with all benefits and salary to remain the same, and on Jan. 4, 2008 I was released.
I filed and was rejected on the grounds of Sec 42 which excludes "appointed" advisory positions. However, I was a full time supervisor, not in any "policy" capacity. I filed my redetermination request over ten weeks ago, and have heard nothing officially about my status or right to appeal. When I call to inquire I'm told that my case is before a "special" hearing board that investigates. I'm told I can do nothing until they "meet". I've talked to supervisors, and legal advocates who cannot understand the delay. All requirements have been met concerning call ins and paperwork deadlines, but still no response. Is a lawyer my only recourse? (btw, I inadvertently sent a copy of this to your email address, sorry for the error.)In my opinion, you should be eligible. I don't have any suggestion for speeding up the process other than, possibly, contacting your state representative and/or senator and ask them to light a fire under the Unemployment Agency.
I am in the mortgage business in Michigan. Unfortunatly my company closed my branch. I was approved for unemployment. After 12 weeks, I accepted a customer service position an hour and 20 minutes from my home. I tried very hard to make this work, I had worked there for almost 3 months. Unfortunatly, I could not afford to buy gas to go to work. I was spending $164.00 a week in gas. I have reapplied, stating that I had quit my job, due to distance was greater from my home. It has been over 3 weeks, and money is none. Unemployment keeps telling me to wait 6 weeks. Has anyone been approved for a situation like this?
Yes, in my opinion, with gasoline prices as high as they are, you had good reason to quit your job. The law on this is not entirely clear on how far or how long the commute has to be to justify quitting. I don't have time right now, but I'll do a little research and follow up on this comment. The Unemployment Agency is swamped with cases, so the delay doesn't surprise me. If you aren't ruled eligible for benefits, I suggest you ask for a redetermination and, if necessary an appeal to an administrative law judge hearing. Good luck.
Thank you! Any suggestions is very much appreciated.
Needing Help: I was only able to find three cases somewhat similar to yours.
1. Laya v Cebar Construction, 101 Mich App 26 (1980)
The court of appeals held that "voluntary" (leaving) must connote a decision based upon a choice between alternatives which ordinary men would find reasonable.
FACTS: The claimant lived in Warren, Michigan with his family. In 1976 he was laid off and could not find work in his local area. Through his union he learned of work in Cincinnati, Ohio. He accepted the job, lived in Ohio during the week and drove home (272 miles) on weekends. The distance created difficulties within the family and trouble in making the drive. He quit after 25 days.
Decision: Claimant is not disqualified for benefits.
RATIONALE: Where the claimant was not faced between alternatives that ordinary persons would consider reasonable, his choice was "no choice at all," and his leaving was involuntary and non-disqualifying.
2. Gilliam v Chrysler Corp. 72 Mich App 538 (1976)Court of appeals holding: In determining the suitability of offered work, the loss of recall rights to local work must be considered. Further, a job is not automatically suitable because the distance is less than 45 miles.
FACTS: The claimants lived in Monroe and Newport and worked in Trenton. One commuted 15 miles each way and the other drove 21 miles. Both were laid off and subsequently notified of work at other plants. The Monroe resident lived 44 miles from the Hamtramck plant at which he was offered work. The New port resident was called by a Detroit plant, 42 miles from his home. Both claimants refused the offered work, citing the distance. If the claimants had accepted the offered work they would have lost their recall rights at the Trenton facility.
DECISION: The claimants are not qualified for refusal of work.
RATIONALE: "In determining whether distance makes a job offer unsuitable the commission, referee and appeal board should consider where relevant, the age and health of the individual employee, the hours during which travel will be required, the time involved in traveling, traffic conditions and availability nd reliability of a means of transportation, as well as any other facts which may relate to the distance factor and its bearing upon the suitability of the employment."
"Offered employment which is otherwise suitable may be unsuitable if it jeopardizes good prospects for recall to local work in an individual's customary occupation."
3. Korhonen v Brown and Winckler, No. 23110, Ingham Circuit Court
Circuit Court Holding: Where an individual leaves nearby work and moves 75 miles away for personal reasons, the separation is disqualifying but a refusal to return to the former employment is not disqualifying.
FACTS: The claimant worked as a legal secretary. She was disqualified for voluntarily leaving a Lansing position in order to move from Lansing to Northville. The claimant requalified, but refused an offer of recall to the Lansing job, because the distance from her home was 75 miles.
DECISION: The claimant is not disqualified for refusal of work.
RATIONALE: "The appellants assert that she had a job here in Lansing which was open, available to her which she could come to and earn a wage. "That, therefore, she was not seeking work pursuant to the statute because she did nto accept the employment with them.
"The Court finds, contrary to the assertion of the appellants, however, that she need not be available for work in Lansing because of the distance which exists between Northville and Lansing."
"The Commission correctly found, the referee correctly found, and the Board of Review correctly found that the work offered to the claimant by the appellant was unsuitable because of the distance involved which she would hav to travel to in order to enjoy that work."
[The reasoning in the above cases could be applied to your case depending on the facts: distance and time of commute, cost of gasoline, etc. Basically, your eligibility will be based on whether your decision to quit was what a reasonable person would do under the circumstances. If you are determined not to be eligible I suggest you request a redetermination and, if necessary appeal to an administrative law judge hearing. Be sure to appeal within the time limit. The time limits are enforced very strictly. Good luck!]
hi mr. deeds at my last job we had what was called a performance bank wich held 1oo points every time your written up for company infractions points are deducted from your bank when your banktotals 0 or goes in the negative you are terminated this happend to me. my employer claims i QUIT before a disiplanary conference was held and unemployment has denied me twice but i did have aconference and was told i was terminated at that conference in front of union representation and at that conference was told i could resign in lieu of termination and that way would still recive vacation pay i had accrued i was also told by my employer and by my union rep it would not affect me getting unemployment i have a copy of the write up where it states i had a conference and who was present but it does not state that i was fired just that i was assesed 10 points leaeving me with -9points no where does it say i was fired i did sign a letter of volantary resignation do i have a case?
I recommend you request an administrative law judge hearing. It sounds to me like you were fired and tricked into signing a resignation letter in an effort to keep you from drawing unemployment compensation. Your case will depend on how serious the incidents(s) for which you were disciplined are.
Thank you very much
Very useful information - thanks.
Mr Deeds,
Would greatly appreciate your imput on my case. Was terminated from my job on May 1st of this year. My former employeer sstaed"it just wasn't working out" Well i knew that wasn't the real reason....the reason was because of a traffic accident I was involved in using a company vehicle on April 18 of this year. I filed for UC(Florida) and received a letter stating what my weekly benefit would be. On the 27th of May I received a later denying my benefits because of misconduct. I have since appealed that decision and my referee hearing via telephone is July 1st. I was cited for the accident but there was really know way I could avoid the accident...believe me I tried. I certainly had no intention of getting in that accident and up until that time had a flawless driving record(37yrs of no tickects) I have studied the statute and Florida case laws regarding matters such as this and I feel I have a pretty good case. I have no prior history of damaging company property and to my knowledge have never been reprimanded or written up for any violations. Would appreciate your insight on this matter. Thanks.
In Michigan you would almost certainly ruled eligible for Unemployment Compensation. I'll look up a couple of cases and give you the reasoning. The burden on the employer is to show (intentional) "wanton or willful disregard of the employer's interest." In the case of motor vehicle accidents, this would require proof (a ticket or testimony) that the accident resulted from a violation of the law or serious negligence of some sort. Also, prior instances of accidents or violations would be taken into account.
A Michigan Unemployment Agency bullitin says the following:
"What court cases have said: Unemployment compensation cases say that to be misconduct, the actions by the worker must be harmful to the interests of the employer, and must be done intentionally or in disregard of the employer's interests. Actions that are grossly negligent may be enough to disqualify a worker from unemployment benefits. A worker who commits many infractions may be disqualified, even if none of the infractions, alone, would be misconduct resulting in disqualification. However, the final incident in a series, for which the worker is fired, must itself show qan intentional disregard of the employer's interests.
However, if the actions by the worker show merely the worker's inability to do the job correctly, or show an isolated case of bad judgment or negligence, then the worker will not be disqualified. (This does not necessarily mean the employer did not have a good reason for firing the worker.) Acts committed by the worker that have no connection with the work will not result in disqualification if the employer fires the worker for them.....If either the employer or the unemployed worker appeals the case to an Administrative Law Judge, then the employer must prove that the worker engaged in misconduct and that the misconduct occurred in connection with the work. Except in the most serious offenses, the employer must also prove that the worker was aware of the employer's work rules and that the actions of the worker were harmful to the employer...."
NOTE: The above applies in Michigan. The law may differ somewhat in Florida.
how long after i get laid off do i have to collect? is it to late if i was laid off in oct 2006? thks for your help
There is no provision for payment of benefits for periods prior to the filing of a timely and valid application in accordance with your unemployment agency's procedures.
My recent protest of a determination was also denied due to the fact my former employer states i quit when he actually fired me, another thing is unemployment says my protest wasn't received by the agency in the 30 day time frame.
I know that is wrong because i filed it right away and even waited the 48 hours and called back to make sure they received my Fax,the person i spoke to from unemployment said it WAS received and to wait 3-4 weeks to hear something back, after 4 weeks was up i called again and was told nothing was ever received and that my protest has been denied as well due to not getting my protest in to the agency in the alotted 30 day time frame.
I even once again faxed over documents and receipts showing that i faxed my protest within the time frame,so why should i be denied benefits because of a mistake on the unemployment agencys end? They made the mistake and refuse to take responsiblity for that and instead continue to deny me me benefits....what can i do next?
You could try filing an appeal for an Administrative Law Judge hearing or writing to your representative in the legislature. And perhaps you could go in person to an Unemployment Agency office and talk face to face with a real live human and show him or her the documents showing that you faxed the appeal on time. The Unemployment Agency has lots of cases and some fall through the cracks.
Please tell me what my chances are for unemployment. I was fired for supposedly
calling another employee a lesbian
. What I said was "Does she even like boys" They are saying I was fired for misconduct
. I was never written up or gave warning.
The burden for establishing misconduct is on the employer. If I were the judge I would rule in your favor. However, there is a fairly large misconduct gray area. And we are in an era where remarks about race, sexual orientation are not tolerated. It would have been more reasonable, in my opinion, for the employer to investigate the situation and warn you to avoid remarks about sexual orientation in the future. If the individual about whom your remark was addressed heard you or became aware of it and was offended, your employer could have asked you to apologise. Dismissal strikes me as quite severe in the case you described. If I were you I would appeal your case to an Administrative Law Judge hearing. I think your chances of winning are better than 50-50. An appeal doesn't cost anything. Be sure and get your appeal in within the time limit and show up at the hearing on time. Good luck.
Ralph, I filed for unemployment in Michigan due to lack of work, got over a months worth of benefits. When I filed I answered that I was in school part time and would NOT quit school if work conflicted. I had no return to work date but have returned to work and was assured it was just due to the american axle strike. They have asked for ALL the money back. I wrote for a redeterimination and was denied, I am writing again to request a hearing before an Administrative Law Judge. I am wondering what you think my chances of winning are? And any advice you could give me to help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Well, it's hard to make a prediction without reading the file. However, the basic principle is that in order to qualify for benefits you must be available and seeking work. Being in school doesn't automatically disqualify you. There are several cases where students were allowed to continue receiving benefits if they indicated they were willing to adjust their class schedule so as to allow them to work while going to school. The law does not require you to quit school in order to be eligible for benefits. Once you have filed a timely appeal you will receive a notice of hearing and a list of advocates who can assist you in presenting your case to the administrative law judge. Having an advocate or lawyer would be to your advantage. You are free to call as many of the people on the list as you wish. You should not wait until the last minute before selecting an advocate. You need to give him or her time to sign on to your case and get a copy of your case file, read it and discuss your case with you. Also, find out where the hearing office is located and make sure you get their on time, preferably a half hour ahead of time in case there is a need to tie up any loose ends with your representative. The state pays a small fee ($100) to the advocate for advising you on your case and appearing with you at the hearing.
If you were in school part time when you were laid off and you returned to your part time job when you were recalled I think you should be eligible for benefits. However, your case is not a slam dunk. The judge may rule that you were not available and seeking work during your layoff and therefore ineligible. Yours is a borderline case so far as I can tell without reading the case file. Good luck!
I was employed for six years with a company that just eliminated my position. It was basically an executive position and I was a model employee. I DID receive unemployment benefits for the past six weeks.
My employer told me personally that she felt bad for ending my employment and she was going to include two weeks vacation pay on my last regular paycheck. My last paycheck included the extra two weeks pay that was described as vacation pay. I had earned three weeks vacation at my anniversary date two months before my release. The vacation was a benefit listed in my original employment agreement that I signed six years ago. The agreement did not state whether the vacation could be taken as a cash payment or had to be taken as days off. I had requested my vacation time every year for six years and was denied all requested time for the entire six years of my employment even though it was in my agreement. The employer had sometimes paid other employees (that did not even hve a written agreement) cash instead of taking vacation.
I just received a letter from UEA questioning my eligibility and asking me to answer several questions. The questions ask about two seperate payments. The owner has told them that I was also given a seperate severance pay check...I received no such check.
The owner feels that the two weeks vacation pay should be considered income after my termination and I should be disqualified for benefits for the first two weeks. The owner also lied about a severance check being given to me.
My question is: Does vacation pay that was earned as a benefit for working the previous year count as regular pay for the next two weeks after my job ended when it was a benefit and not regular pay? How would a severance check effect someone's benefits...I never rec'd one, but I am now curious.
Thank you!
Whe
Regulations for severance pay and vacation pay in Michigan provide that laid off employees are disqualified for the week in which the pay is received unless the employer in the severance letter or agreement specifically allocates the pay over several weeks. The way this is handled may well vary from state to state. My experience is in Michigan only.
I won my case and now my previous employer has offered me a job! The problem is the pay is less and the hours are less. Do I accept the job? What do I say to MARVIN?
Well, it depends on how much less the pay and hours are for the job to be deemed suitable. Your employer may be trying to disqualify you from benefits. If you refuse the job he will probably inform the agency that you declined an offer of employment. You are required to accept offers of "suitable" employment. "Suitable" has been interpreted to mean work in your occupation which you have done before for comparable or similar earnings. One court case ruled that a 17% reduction in earnings was "substantial" and good cause attributable to the employer for quitting. I'm not of any magic number for determining whether a job offer is suitable. The courts would compare your pay rate and hours before you were laid off with the current offer and determine whether it was reasonable for you to decline because it was "unsuitable," that is the pay rate, hours and earnings would be sufficiently lower that it would not be reasonable to expect you to accept the offer. The unemployment agency may have internal yardsticks for determining whether a job offer is suitable, but they haven't published them to my knowledge.
Error: I'm not [aware] of any magic number.
Some one told me that there was a sliding scale to figure it out. What they are offering me is 50% less than what I was making with that company 5 months ago. I just dont know what my next step is. They sent me a letter saying that they had a job opening. I am supposed to respond. I am also supposed to call MARVIN on Tuesday. What do I tell MARVIN when he askes me if I have refused any job offer? I dont want to lie but its hard to reason with an automated phone service!
If it was clear from the letter that you would be making 50% less than before you should be okay if you decline the offer. I'm sorry but I don't recall the wording of MARVIN's question about refusal of a job offer. You should answer the question accurately. It could lead to a redetermination against you, in which case you should protest on the basis that the job was not suitable because the pay was 50% less. If that doesn't work you should appeal to an administrative law judge hearing.
Please let us know how this turns out. I and I'm sure others would be interested. Sorry I'm not able to give you a definitive answer. Good luck!
I wrote awhile back about my husband being forced to resign. It has finally found it's way through to someone's desk and they are making a decision, however his company is now flat out lying to unemployment about the circumstances. They are claiming he up and resigned because he believed he was about to be fired for poor performance. Unfortunately, gave signs that she might be buying it. He is trying to get some supporting evidence from the boss, from others who were let go at the same time, and possibly even from the company that he was contracted with in the first place - hopefully before the company realizes what he is doing and starts trying to get people to shut up. Just wanted to give you an update, looks like we would qualify if the company in question wasn't acting unethically. I wish my husband had listened to me when I told him that they weren't being 'nice' to him by giving him 2 weeks severence.
Well, the outcome may depend on whose testimony at the hearing the judge finds more credible. Tricking someone into resigning in order to receive severance pay should not disqualify anyone from unemployment benefits.
Should and what is don't always line up in this life.
Right now it is still on the unemployment case worker's desk for initial judgement. We just know that they are contesting his version of events and claiming that his resignation was completely voluntary. Luckily, he does have an email from his boss which states 'I gave you the choice between resignation and termination and you chose resignation' which seems to undermine their claim that there was no immediate threat of firing. My husband is also going to try and get confirmation from the company he was contracted with that they were the one's to discontinue his services. Since there should be no liability to them for telling a contractor not to work there anymore we hope they will provide it.
In Michigan severance pay disqualifies for UC benefits only for the week or weeks in which the check or checks are paid. I heard on NPR this afternoon that a laid off worker in Florida was disqualified from benefits due to severance pay. But they didn't provide the facts of the case. If your husband was forced to sign a resignation letter in order to get severance pay, that's not a bona fide resignation. Again, it's impossible to judge a case without reading the case file and even then it's uncertain until you hear the testimony and evidence presented at the ALJ hearing.
We know it isn't a bona fide resignation, but now we are in the position of having to prove it. The problem is the head of HR is actively lying to unemployment about the terms. She is claiming he resigned of his own volition with only the "possibility" of being fired had he not increased sales in his territory. This is not what happened. His manager gave him two options, walk out of the meeting terminated and receive no benefits or send in a resignation letter and get two more weeks pay plus the possibility of health care into the following month.
Essentially, it is boiling down to a 'he said, she said' argument with only my husband's resignation letter and a brief email from his former manager as the only documented evidence. I'm still cautiously hopeful that the investigator will make the initial judgement in my husband's favor so that the company is forced to appeal and not us. I don't know how good a poker face the investigators have - so far this one seems to be buying a lot of what the HR manager is selling. We are trying to hook up with the local Unemployment Law Project for guidance (and possibly representation) if it does end up going to court.
I would appeal the case all the way.
In Michigan are you legally required to attend an unemployment appeal hearing if the employer appeals your determination/re-determination?
I collected benefits for a few months, then got another job. Now I got a letter saying I have to attend a hearing. I do not care about the unemployment anymore and I know if I win this appeal the employer will just appeal again. I just want to put this all behind me.
Whats the worst that could happen if I leagally don't have to attend besides paying a few thousand dollars back if they win their appeal?
What if the judge determines that I have been fired for misconduct by the employers testimony, will I have to pay any penalties?
I appreciate you taking your time to answer my questions. Thank you.
If you don't appear at the hearning the judge's decision will be based solely on the employer's un-rebutted testimony which means that the re-determination will likely be reversed, and you will be required to re-pay the benefits you have received. There are no penalties for not attending the hearing. The hearings are fairly informal. They usually last a half hour or so. They are tape recorded and appeals are decided on a transcript of the taped hearing record.
I have read through your comments. They have helped many people. If you could please assist with one concern I have.
I was recently released from my nursing position due to the loss of a contract. I am receiving a short severance and have had my unemployment adjusted appropriately. (not my question) My concern is the question on Marvin that is directed towards returning to school. Oddly enough the question includes if the individual is gaining a pension or has started school. Relevance of the two escapes me... However.. I digress... I am now returning to school. As much as it would appear by the title RN there are not jobs out there for me. I have not worked in a hospital or with direct patient care since I first graduated. Most job listings require quite a backing of experience. I have since learned it is not my preference to provide direct care. Please dont take that comment to meant I do not care dearly for my patients. I have evolved my career down the administrative path and presently have my BSN. I would like to advance my career with education while I am on this forced hiatus. However, I am not quite certain how the reply to this question on Marvin will play out. Can you please enlighten me. Thank you for any assistance you can provide.
Sorry for the delay in this reply. I have been out of town for 10 days and wasn't able to keep up with my email. Returning to school full time could affect your eligibility unless you continue to seek full time employment and are able and willing to suspend your classes or adjust your school hours to accomodate a job. Being in school doesn't automatically disqualify you from benefits. It depends on the individual circumstances. The intent of the law is to provide benefits for individuals who lose their jobs through no fault of their own and who continue to seek employment. Severance pay disqualifies otherwise eligible individuals during the week or weeks in which the severance pay is received.
NOTE: Answers to questions are based on my knowledge of the law in Michigan and are correct to the best of my knowledge but not guaranteed.
Nice hub, have linked one of mine to it as the topic is relevant
Thanks!
I was unemployed due to my plant closing. I worker there for 30 years.I have been looking for a job and have went for a few orentations. I was told I could start at a new store that was opening in my town the next day after orentation. But the job was only part time and was $7.75 an hour and I had been making 12.52 when my plant closed.I di not take the job because of the pay and I had never did retail work before and would have to purchased new clothes to work there for just 20 hours a week. I had orentation for another job and expected to start there the next week. I have not heard from the other job which would have paid $9.00 I am wondering when I call in to certify if this will cause problems with my unemployment. Will I have to say I turned down work?Will I be denied my unemployment?
I was unemployed due to my plant closing. I worker there for 30 years.I have been looking for a job and have went for a few orentations. I was told I could start at a new store that was opening in my town the next day after orentation. But the job was only part time and was $7.75 an hour and I had been making 12.52 when my plant closed.I di not take the job because of the pay and I had never did retail work before and would have to purchased new clothes to work there for just 20 hours a week. I had orentation for another job and expected to start there the next week. I have not heard from the other job which would have paid $9.00 I am wondering when I call in to certify if this will cause problems with my unemployment. Will I have to say I turned down work?Will I be denied my unemployment?
I filed for unemployment back in June due to our company (a charter school) changing management companies and everyone in the company was let go. When I filed, I stated I was fired as there was no accurate box to check. The truth of the matter is the school board quit the employer without cause and fired them. I clearly stated what took place, but was denied benefits. Since I had nothing more to add to my claim, I did not protest. I didn't think it would do any good to restate what I already stated.
Later I discovered that others from my school received benefits so I inquired. I protested late, and asked for a redetermination. I have been denied due to not having good cause for protesting late.
Do I have any hope if I go to a hearing? If so, what reasonings do I need to provide.
When speaking with representatives from the unemployment agency, they stated that there is no reason why my benefits should have been denied, and that the person who originally looked at my case must have overlooked my statements. A second time I talked to them regarding my request for redetermination, they stated that whomever looked at the redetermination request only addressed the issue of back pay and didn't even see the request for redetermination. This made it twice that unemployment workers stated that someone within their agency didn't do an accurate job. Is there anything that can be done about this type of negligence. People are not educated in unemployment law and these workers seem to take advantage of it. Perhaps they are trained to do so in order not to spend so much???
Thank you.
Alley, I don't believe your not accepting a part-time job at a much lower rate than your previous job will disqualify you from unemployment compensation.
LD, the judges tend to enforce the deadlines for appeals fairly strictly. However, appealing doesn't cost anything, and you might win based on the argument that your failure to protest resulted from incorrect, innacurate information given you by the unemployment agency. An appeal is worth a try. Some of the judges are more sympathethic to claimants than others.
LD, one factor possibly in your favor--sounds like your former employer is not likely to show up at the hearing. Neither is someone from the agency. Judges are more likely in close cases to rule for claimants if the employer isn't objecting and if the employer doesn't send a representative to the hearing. Also, the judge should consider the fact that other employees in your exact situation received benefits.
Mr. Deeds,
I was a co-op/intern student at a corporation for 5 months. When my term ended, I was let go and I had also graduated from college. I wasn't sure if co-ops/intern were eligible to file and I couldn't find any unemployment laws in Michigan prohibiting it. After 2 month of not being able to find a job, I decided to file for unemployment to see if my application would be accepted.
Since I was a Co-op there, my term ended. On the unemployment application, I stated that I was fired because there wasn't an option that fit the reason why I left.
Yesterday, I called to inquired about my case, and the man I spoke to over the phone stated that my employer put down "temporary assignment" on the Monetary Determination/Fact Finding as my reasoning to leaving. He also changed my reason to leaving as "laid off." He said there should be no reason why I had to wait that long (for a review) since I technically didn't "quit" and my employer even stated that.
I had concerns about that, so I called back today.The gentleman I spoke to today stated that He said he saw nothing wrong with my application/case because the employer stated what I wrote above. I didn't understand how "temporay Assignment" would elate to "laid off"
Most states allow co-ops/interns to recieve unemployment benefits. I couldn't find anything on MI. I am concern be cause I don't want to recieve any benfits I'm not entitled to. I was so concern I even asked the representative "If there are any laws in Michigan that says co-ops/interns are ineligible for unemployment?" and he said, "No, not that I'm aware of."but I'm still concern.
Here are a few questions I'm hoping you may be able to assist me with.
Are interns/co-ops eligible for unemployment?
If a employer were to protest a claim, how long do they have to protest? Is there a due date when the employer can no longer protest?
If I used the benefits because I was eligible and the employer protests, would I have to pay the benefits back?
Should I be concern at the fact that the representative changed my reason for leaving to "Laid-off"?
If this helps, I applied for unemployment at the end of July. (July 26 or 27 or 28)
I spent so long waiting because when you "quit" it takes a month for a Determination. I still haven't recieve Determination.
I applied and I'm eligible for unemployment benefits. (The representative told me I should be recieving the benfits this week). I've been call MARVIN for the past month. I'm just so afraid that there is some mistake, and I would have to pay every penny back. I've been reading up on unemployment and see that this is often the case. I have made it clear on my unemployment application that my job title was "Engineering Co-op."
Thank you for your help.
1. Keep calling Marvin.
2. Your benefits should not be affected prior to the date of an employer protest including a short statement of the reasons for termination.
3. Be patient--the unemployment agency is flooded with applications, appeals, protests, etc.
4. If your employer protests and you receive a redetermination that you are not eligible for benefits promptly request a hearing before an administrative law judge. I see no reason why you should not be eligible for benefits.
I lost my job due to my actions that landed me in jail. I have filed for unemployment and have been waiting 8 weeks now. What I did had nothing to do with work. I was in a fight outside of work, on my day off. I called my employer from jail and asked if they would do work release and they said no. Am I screwed or is there a chance for me to still obtain benefits?
It doesn't cost any thing to appeal. During an appeal it's important to continue to certify in accordance with procedures (in Michigan calling Marvin).
Section 29 (1) (f) of the Michigan statute reads as follows:
421.29 Disqualification from Benefits
Sec. 29(1) An individual is disqualified from benefits if he or she:
(f) Lost his or her job due to absence from work resulting from a violation of law for which the individual was convicted and sentenced to jail or prison. This subdivision does not apply if conviction of an individual results in a sentence to county jail under conditions of work release or day parole as provided in 1962 PA 60, MCL 801.251 to 801.258, or if the conviction was for a traffic violartion that resulted in an absence of less than 10 consecutive days from the individual's place of employment.
I was unable to find a case which would tell me for sure whether the above exception applies in your case. I believe it does, but I'm not sure. An appeal would be worth a try in my opinion. The above exception to disqualification could be interpreted, in my opinion, to mean that because your sentence allowed work release you were not guilty of disqualifying misconduct.
[If you do appeal please let us know the result.]
I think compensation for unemployment is labour intensive jobs
i lost my job August 19,2007 because i was 1 minute late for work because of my child care provider didnt show up on time for my 22 month old son. I filed unemployment that same day and still have not received a check yet. I keep calling MARVIN on my schedule day. I finally called unemployment again and they said my Employer never responded so now they will review it and make there own decision. I'm just wondering how long this will take and will i even receive my unemployment? Thanks so any info.
The Unemployment Agency should have issued a determination shortly after you applied for UC. Sounds to me as if you should long ago have been receiving benefits. Sometimes it's better to write a letter than relying on commitments over the phone. Don't give up. Being late occasionally due to a child care issue should not disqualify you from benefits.
Right after i filed they sent me a determination saying if approved i would be getting $362.00 a week in benefits. When i called today they said my claim is in review because my employer never responded after several attempts of letters they have sent them. So someone in the unemployment department is reviewing it to decide if i get it or not because i was fired. I already filled out the inquirey they sent me asking why and how i got fired. How long will it take them to review it,ive been job hunting for 6 weeks now with no luck. I work for this company for 6 years too. Thanks for any info
I suggest that you keep pestering them. It might help to contact your representative in the Michigan Legislature. The agency should have awarded you benefits long ago. However, they are flooded with applications due to the high unemployment in Michigan. You should not have to wait for benefits just because your former employer hasn't responded. The agency should pay benefits or rule you ineligible based on the information you gave them on your application and subsequently. If you told them you were only late a minute or two due to a child care issue that should be enough to qualify you for benefits.
Just wanted to drop you a quick line and tell you my unemployment came through today (FINALLY) !!! They backed paid me the 6 weeks :) Thanks for all your info.......and pestering them did help.....finally!
That's great news. Thanks for the report. I hope you find a good job before your benefits are exhausted!
My hearing is tomorrow and I just wanted to say......I WISH I WOULD HAVE FOUND THIS THREAD EARLIER!!! I am so nevous.
I am in FL. and this is a telephonic hearing, my first appeal.....I just wanted to thank you for this site and these answers, I read a lot of them. So, even for those of us who don't send questions, This is still a big help. I learned a lot, just wished it calmed my nerves. :-/
~ Tracy
Mr. Deeds,
I was fired and accused of profanity in the work place...COMPLETELY FALSE.. and was DENIED UNEMPLOYEMENT BENEFITS under MES ACT, SEC 29(1)(b) which I have read. I am planning on appealing this week. My situtation is: I wasn't given verbal or wriiten notices, I never recieved a employee handbook of office policies, it is her word against mine because we were behind closed doors, just the office manager and my self, and other employees have documented proof of her lies in the past....they will support me. BUT HOW DO I PROVE MY INNOCENTS on the charge? I am 61 yrs. old, own a home and live in Oakland County, Michigan need I say more? I will be added on to the long lists of foreclosures soon. I was fired 8-7-08 and time is running out.
Any advice? Thank you in advance!
Sally
Ralph please help!
I was fired 7 weeks ago from my job of three years. The day I was pulled into the conference room my manager told me that due to several tardies, absences, and my recent requests for time off(3 unsignificant dates in the span of two months due to a moving process) that they needed someone more reliable and I wasn't working out.
Now they never specified which dates they were talking about. I was never shown the days I was supposedly tardy or absent. Now I do recall a few times I was tardy but I called in before I was to show up to work and told them the reasoning(I was stuck in a car wash the day after halloween due to eggs and other legitimate situations), they never once said this was being written up, or that this was going to cause issues for me.
Several fellow employees have been fired from this company in the span of a year, more like 8. I've noticed with several of the ex employees, there were people hired in and trained right before someone was fired.
I think this happened in my case as well. A part time came in, was trained, promoted to full time to learn my position. Another part timer was hired, and then I was fired. I went in a week later to collect my check and there she was in my desk doing my work.
This company has thrown me around that office and I never once denied any of their schedule changes. there was a misscomunication in the scheduling and I did come in to work late one day, but we actually had a discussion about that privately and she agreed that there was a lot of confusion in all of the changes.
I live and work in Michigan and I know its tough for these types of unemployment but I need some reassurance that I have a chance.
Might I add that they never gave us any type of break or lunch?! Can I add that and get something from it, or is that just playing dirty?
Also, Ive been shown an employee handbook once, when I was first hired in as a part time. I was never given a copy of the handbook to take home but I did have to sign something.
I could also get witnesses or written statements from past employees regarding their behavior and how random the punishment/discharges have been if that could help?
The burden of proof is on your employer to establish misconduct. From what you said it doesn't sound to me as if you were guilty of misconduct which has been defined by the courts as "wanton or willful disregard of your employer's interest."
Requesting time off in advance certainly is not misconduct. Neither is being late for work once in a while. That's normal for most employees. Moreover you apparently received no warnings, write-ups or reprimands before you were fired. Normally there are several preliminary steps prior to dismissal except for serious misconduct such as use of drugs, alcohol, theft, insubordination and the like.
It will be to your advantage to get an advocate to assist you at the administrative law judge hearing. Get to the hearing early enough to discuss and clear up any last minute items with your advocate or lawyer.
Written statements don't help much at appeal hearings. Witnesses with first hand knowledge of the issues in the case can be helpful. Discuss this with your advocate. He or she will want to know exactly what testimony your witness is prepared to give. It might be helpful for you to point out that you were frequently asked to work through or during your lunch period, especially if you weren't paid for the time worked. Good luck!
I had resigned from my employer due to mistreatment by certain managers. These managers were writing inaccurate information within my performance reviews. During employment, I told the head manger what the other managers were doing. That they were basing my work performance on "hear say". Once I told the head manager this, he disciplined the managers. The managers received written warnings. After that, the mangers retaliated against me by harassing me. Some harassment included following me, questioning me about my work performance as well as constantly observing me. They continued this for 4 months. I finally resigned. I filed for unemployment. The employer appealed the decision. The day of the hearing, the employer did not show. Therefore the judge dismissed their appeal. Then the employer filed for "reinstatement" and it was granted. The 2nd hearing is coming up this month. If the judge rules in the employer's favor at the 2nd hearing will I have to pay back all benefits even though the judge had ruled in my favor the first time because of the employer's "no-show"? Thank you for any advice you may offer.
Yes, you will be requested to repay the benefits you received if the administrative law judge rules in favor of the employer. The state will grab any future state income tax refunds that are due you, and they will take a portion of any future unemployment compensation benefits for which you may become eligible. The state will not take your house or car or 401k plan.
As indicated in the text above, the law presumes that a reasonable person will find another job before quitting the one they have. Therefore, the burden will be on you to convince the judge that you had "good cause attributable to the employer" for quitting. The "good cause" bar is pretty high. However, there is a fairly big gray area in which it is within the judge's discretion to rule in your favor or in favor of the employer. It will be to your advantage to find an advocate to assist you in preparing for the hearing and to represent you at the hearing. Quit cases are difficult for claimants to win. Perhaps you should consider subpoenaing the "head manager" to testify on his action as a result of your complaint to him on the harrassment. I would not subpoena him, however, unless he says, in advance, that he is willing to testify that he disciplined your supervisors for harrasing you. Also, you might be able to contest the propriety of the decision to allow the employer a second chance at a hearing. That would depend on why they failed to appear at the original hearing. Best of luck!
ps, If it's not too much trouble, let us know how the hearing turns out.
Ralph, I stumbled across this post and was very impressed, being that you are familiar with how all this works I was hoping to get a little help from you, I hope you don't mind. Summary is that I was fired for attendance issues from a company that uses a point system, due to a lack of child care in my son's first year. I received a determination disqualifying me under Mes Act, Sec. 29(1)(B).
Now, the really confusing part for me is that I have been making my calls to MARVIN for 2 months and have NOT received any benefit payments, yet the letter I just received says: "YOU ARE DISQUALIFIED FOR WEEK ENDING XX/XX/2008 UNTIL COMPLETION OF A $X,XXX.XX EARNINGS REWORK REQUIREMENT WHICH HAS NOT BEEN SATISFIED." Should I be concerned that they are trying (or may try) to collect benefit payments from me? -and- I have contemplated protesting this, but I only have a month to contend with it before I ship for boot camp (Military). I don't want to start something I can't finish... Any details you might want, simply let me know. I am extremely grateful for any insight you can provide! Thanks, -Sean
Well, first of all, automatic attendance point systems are not valid for establishing misconduct because they don't take into account the reasons for absence or tardiness. Absensce, per se, is not misconduct. Repeated absence and/or tardiness without reasonable cause is misconduct. The employer has the burden of establishing misconduct. That is difficult or impossible to do solely based on an attendance point system that racks up points without regard to the reason for the absences or tardinesses. I assume that you initially were determined eligible and received benefits and then based on information furnished to the Agency by your employer you were determined to be ineligible. If you had filed a timely appeal for a hearing before an administrative law judge you would have had a good chance of getting the Agency's determination or redetermination reversed. Since you have not appealed the ruling the Agency is likely to request that you repay the benefits you received. Practically speaking my understanding is that they don't pursue repayment requests in a ruthless manner, but they will grab any future state income tax refunds for which you may be eligible in order to satisfy your obligation to repay the benefits. They also will reduce any future unemployment compensation benefits for which you may be eligible. [It's hard for me to offer solid advice without reading the information in your file.]
If you think of it let us know of any additional developments. Best of luck in the military. I hope your don't get sent to Afghanistan! (or Iraq)
Ralph, I recently filed for unemployment due to lack of work and the initial determination was approved. However, the employer filed a appeal and my benefits were then reversed for which I filed an appeal and had my telephone hearing today. The employer did not show up for the hearing today and I wondered if that makes my chances better for getting the redetermination turned back into my favor?
Yes, it does, especially if the issue doesn't involve resignation. In resignation cases the burden of proof is on you, not the employer. When the employer doesn't show up the judge rules based on the claimant's testimony. However, it the employer didn't show up because of some credible emergency, the judge could honor his request for another hearing. That doesn't happen very often.
Thanks Ralph, I hope your right because I'm having a tough time finding a new job but I keep trying. I was let go for lack of work, so I was told but when my employer appealed orginally he said he let me go for attendance. I was never documentented for attendance problems and the judge today stated he had nothing more than a statement from my employer about certain dates. The judge just asked me about specific dates and why I missed and whether I was ever given a written or verbal waring of which I wasn't. I told the judge what was said to me on my last day which was there wasn't enough work in the office for him to keep me and I could give him a letter of resignation for which then he would give me a good reference. Of course I didn't provide him with the letter of resignation because I knew that would mean I quit. Anyway, my former employer didn't show up for the telephone hearing today and the judge said he would render a decision as quickly as possible. Thanks again for your input.
Sounds like a winner to me! You were smart not to fall for the "Just sign this letter of resignation and I'll give you a good reference" trick which many employers use in an attempt to disqualify you from receiving unemployment compensation. They are given bad advice from shyster lawyers. Some even tell employees that they won't receive any pay for unused vacation or other pay due unless they sign a resignation. Others offer the choice of resigning or being fired even though the truth is that the termination is a layoff. Cheesey employers will do almost anything to avoid having laid off employees draw benefits against their account.
I don't know so much about smart as lucky, it wasn't till after the fact when I got home that I realized I was glad I didn't give him a letter of resignation because of unemployment reasons. The funny thing is he even called be later in the week to touch back with me to see if I was sending him a letter or not. I didn't take the call I let him go to voice mail. Thanks again for your input. I hope your right and I win....I need to make a house payment!
The unemployment compensation tax is experience rated, i.e., based on the frequency and duration of claims against each employer's account. Last I heard the top tax rate charged employers who have laid off a lot of employees is more than 13 percent. The lowest rate charged employers experiencing few or no layoffs resulting in charges against their account is under one percent. Thus, there is a powerful incentive for unscrupulous employers to avoid charges against their account by disguising what are really layoffs as resignations or dismissals for misconduct. The admnistrative law judges are aware of this and try to prevent employers from unfairly disqualifying employes whom they terminate. Usually it's the small employers that are inclined to do this, not the auto companies or other major employers. Car dealers and nursing homes are among the worst offenders as well as some small temp agencies.
Funny you say that because this was a small company. Insurance agency to be exact with 3 employees. My guess is his tax rate is low. Guess I will know in about a week whether things go my way.
How do Michigan Laws approve in favor of the employee thats quits a job for a good reason. I guess what is a good reason to quit a job and be entitiled for unemployment
Michigan law presumes that a reasonable person will not quit his job until he finds another job UNLESS he has a very good reason for quitting such as unsafe working conditions, being asked to do something illegal, being sexually harrassed by a supervisor, being discriminated against due to race, religion, age or sex, having a substantial reduction in pay, or cancellation of important benefits such as health insurance, repeated bounced or late paychecks, violations of the wage and hour law. Moreover, the employee who quit must be able to show that he attempted to correct the issue by filing a grievance or using established complaint procedures and giving the employer an opportunity to correct the problem.
In cases involving resignations the burden is on the claimant to prove that he had good cause attributable to the employer for quitting. These cases are among the most difficult for claimants to win.
i recently filed a claim for a job that i was fired from. i had to write in and answer a few questions of my employment for determination. today i recieved a notice of determination. it states " You were discharged from (name of company) on 8-5-08. Available information does not establish that your seperation was for misconduct."
in the next paragraph it says "it is found that you were not fired for a deliberate disregaurd of your employers interest. You are not disqualified for benefits under mes act, sec. 29 (1) (B) "
this is really not clear to me and i have no idea if this mean i am going to start recieving checks or if i am not qualified for recieving unemployment check.
Does this mean i have been approved and will start recieving unemployment checks and if so how long will it take to get my first check? Thank You. Brian
Yes. The determination means that you will start to receive benefits. However, you employer has a right to request a "redetermination" and furnish information on why you were fired. The burden of proof for establishing misconduct is on the employer. If the redetermination goes against you, your benefits will stop. Then you have a right to request a hearing before an administrative law judge. Meanwhile it's essential to continue to call MARVIN until your case is settled. The judges are pretty good at getting the facts out in their hearings and arriving at a fair decision. Misconduct is defined under court decisions as "wanton or willful disregard of the employer's interest." This is a pretty high bar for the employers to get over. Pointing to a couple of unexcused absences isn't enough.
I just received two determination letters and am confused.
For the past 15 years Iworked part time for a volunteer ambulance service. This is a State Licensed position and it requires extensive amounts of time for continuing education. My State medical license expired on 8/8/08 and I had log ago made the decision not to renew it. That and the fact that I am 56 years old solidified my decision. I good part of the timeworking on an ambulance is spend lifiting heavy people onto stretchers and into the ambulance.
So at 56, my age was the other contributing factor, (Iwas concernedabout injuring myself. That "Determination Letter" states
"You voluntarily retired from ***** Ambulance Service. Your leaving was voluntary and not the fault of the employer"
You voluntarily retired from your job without good cause attributable to your employer.
It goes on to state that I am disqualified from benefits under MES Sec. 29(1) (A)
Here is where it gets confusing
It further states "You are disqualified for the Week ending 08/09/2008 until completion of a $4,344.00 Earnings rework requirement which has not been satisfied.
(4,344.00) is the yearly total of my pay from the Ambulance service for 2008.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The second Determination is from my full time employer where I was terminated for no good cause and without prior notification.
That Determination states "You were terminated from +++++ on 9/4/2008. The available information does not establish that your seperation was for misconduct.
It is found that you were not fired for a deliberate disregard of your employers interest. You are not disqualified for benefits under MES Act 29 (1)(B)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Does this mean I will be getting benefits from my full time employer and not from the ambulance service?
Thansk in advance for your help
Ron
I just received two determination letters and am confused.
For the past 15 years Iworked part time for a volunteer ambulance service. This is a State Licensed position and it requires extensive amounts of time for continuing education. My State medical license expired on 8/8/08 and I had log ago made the decision not to renew it. That and the fact that I am 56 years old solidified my decision. I good part of the timeworking on an ambulance is spend lifiting heavy people onto stretchers and into the ambulance.
So at 56, my age was the other contributing factor, (Iwas concernedabout injuring myself. That "Determination Letter" states
"You voluntarily retired from ***** Ambulance Service. Your leaving was voluntary and not the fault of the employer"
You voluntarily retired from your job without good cause attributable to your employer.
It goes on to state that I am disqualified from benefits under MES Sec. 29(1) (A)
Here is where it gets confusing
It further states "You are disqualified for the Week ending 08/09/2008 until completion of a $4,344.00 Earnings rework requirement which has not been satisfied.
(4,344.00) is the yearly total of my pay from the Ambulance service for 2008.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The second Determination is from my full time employer where I was terminated for no good cause and without prior notification.
That Determination states "You were terminated from +++++ on 9/4/2008. The available information does not establish that your seperation was for misconduct.
It is found that you were not fired for a deliberate disregard of your employers interest. You are not disqualified for benefits under MES Act 29 (1)(B)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Does this mean I will be getting benefits from my full time employer and not from the ambulance service?
Thansk in advance for your help
Ron
Ralph, I could really use your expertise.
I was employed in the mortgage industry for the last 15 years. I have lost 2 jobs in the last 18 months due to lack of work. I searched for a stable job for almost 7 months and finally found a job, part time as a cashier in a hospital. I took this job knowing there would be room for advancement, full time available after 12 months and kick a#$ benefits. I have worked there now 2 1/2 months.
My former employer called me this week and offered me my job back. He offered me full time, 80% of what I was making with full benefits. I turned it down. I have MANY reasons for not accepting. First is his health benefits are $700 a month, I am only paying at the hospital $130 a month. He has no vision or dental, hospital gives me both. Hospital I also get life insurance, pension, plus many other benefits. The distance is only 20 miles round trip, other job is 40 miles round trip. And here is the most important reason I turned him down. I spoke with the other 4 individuals that were still there when I was laid off and only one is left. The other three people had their hours and pay reduced and were forced to leave for more stable employment with other companies. EVERY ONE of them told me NOT to go back. My former employer is close to bankruptcy and had to move offices because he couldn't make his rent payment. He called me back NOT because the company is doing better (he's actually doing worse), but because everyone else is gone and he is desperate. They said it's only a matter of time before the company folds.
So I still receive limited unemployment (it's reduced due to my part time income), but without it I will be in serious trouble financially. When I let MARVIN know next week that I failed to accept a job, is there a good chance due to all the facts of my case that I will still be eligible to collect the little bit I've been collecting? I know I am supose to accept it because it's more than 70% of what I was making when I got laid off and I am obviously already trained in that field, but it is a SINKING SHIP! I offered my boss to help out a few times a week (I work midnights at the hospital), but he wasn't interested in having me there part time. I would LOVE to go back, full time, but considering the stability of my old job in comparison to my new part time job, it wouldn't make sense. I'd be back on unemployment in the next 6 months.
What is your advice? I am sure I will be immediately cut off, and wondering what will happen. It almost makes you want to lie to MARVIN, but I would never do that in fear it will bite me later on.
Thanks for reading!!!
Ron, It sounds like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. I don't know the answer to your question. I suspect the effect is that you were not disqualified for misconduct but you were were disqualified for resigning without good cause attributable to your employer. You could call the agency and try to get an answer or explanation or just wait and see if you get benefits. Also you have the right to appeal within 30 days and request a hearing before an administrative law judge. In the meantime hou must continue to call MARVIN and certify that you are unemployed, etc.
KT, Your benefits will probably be terminated as a result of your declining a job offer by the employer from which you were laid off and collecting benefits. If so, you should request a re-determination stating the reasons why you did not accept the offer. If the re-determination goes against you, you have the right to appeal to an administrative law judge. I would rate your chances of being found eligible for benefits no better than 50-50. In the meantime you should continue to certify to MARVIN until your case has been resolved.
WOW! I really appreciate you getting back to me so quickly.
I was afraid that was the response I was going to get from you. Isn't it a shame I have to worry about losing my little bit of benefits that puts food on the table or gas in the tank because I thought I made a well informed decision that will probably keep me off unemployment in the future rather than a quick money now, but wind up on unemployment again in the near future decision?
Oh well. I will just call to certify next week and keep my fingers crossed.
Thanks again!!
Thanks for your quick reply.
Ralph - My job was eliminated and I received a severance for 6 months, which was paid out every 2 weeks. I filed a UE claim after my severance expired. My former employer challenged my claim stating (incorrectly) that I received severance during the benefit week I filed for. In my reply, I informed the Unemployment agent over the phone that my severance ran out 3 weeks before I filed my initial claim. At this point, everything is status quo and my benefits will not be affected, but can an employer make a case for my ineligibility going forward because they gave me 6 months of severance pay?
No. I don't believe he can. He can try, but I don't think he'll succeed.
I didn't think so. There is nothing in my severance agreement regarding unemployment claims, just the standard waiver of legal claims (i.e. age discrimination and other lawsuits). Thanks for your quick response.
Note: I will be out of town and unavailable to respond to comments or questions October 29--November 4.
I voluntarily left my job after 10 years of employment. The reason I did this was to be with my husband, whose business relocated to another part of the state. This would make the commute about 180 miles one-way. From November 2006 until June 2008, I lived with my mother-in-law to be able to continue to work and visited with my husband on weekends. However, this created difficulties between us and I left my job. My last day of employment was June 30, 2008. I filed for unemployment on September 8th, 2008. I was denied benefits on October 25, 2008 due to MES Act 29(1)(A). I plan to appeal the decision, but if there is anything that you could advise, I would appreciate it. Thank you and have a great day!
I filed a claim in March 08 and recieved a letter stating I needed to mail in my birth certificate, SSN and Marrage certificates to verify my surname. I have never been married before. And I couldn't find my birth certificate so I had to order a new one. There was a problem with that and I finally got in in July 08. So I re-opened my case and never got a letter stating I needed to mail in those papers to verify my surname so I thought it must have been a clerical error in the first place. Anyways I have been recieving my benefits since 08/08. I just recieved a letter stating that they are cancelling my benefits because I never sent in those papers. I am filing an appeal, but I was wondering if I will be able to appeal it and get my benefits reestablished or if I was really in the wrong and won't be able to get my benefits anymore. PLEASE HELP!! Thank you.
I wrote the comment above. I just thought of another thing. Should I send in copies of my social security card and birth certificate with the appeal letter? Since that is what they were asking for back in March 08. They were also asking for marriage licenses and any surnames I have. Which I do not have either. I've never been married or have gone under any different last names. I have though been known as "Tori", my full name is Victoria, but I don't think that would make a difference. Anyways, should I mail in copies of my SSN and birth certificate with my appeal letter? Do you think that I have a good chance of getting my benefits back? I am a single mother of two kids and can not go without employment.
THANKS!
Ralph,
Thank you for this service.
My wife works for an airline as a flight attendant and recently the company offered something they call a SLIP leave. The leave was intended to reduce flight attendant workforce without the need for involuntary layoffs. The leaves were voluntary, you bid on them and were awarded them based on seniority.
At the time the leaves were offered, the company published a letter explaining that unemployment benefits would be paid depending on the state in which you were unemployed. They explained that while they do not make the decisions on eligibility, they would not protest a claim by employees on SLIP leave for unemployment benefits. They went on to say that if asked about the nature of the leaves that they were "leaves in lieu of layoff of a junior employee."
Initially, my wife was approved for unemployment benefits and we received payments for the first 2 months. We just received a letter stating that we are now denied benefits due to not being umemployed, but on a voluntary leave of absence. We were asked to repay the amount that we had collected.
My wife called the unemployment office to inquire about the denial and was subsequently grilled about the nature of the leave and was told in no uncertain terms that she was ineligible due to the leave being voluntary.
This same type of leave was offered in 2001 by the same company and those employees were able to collect benefits. I think there is a section in Michigan unemployment law about voluntary leaves when there is a lack of work, which definitely applies to this situation since the goal was to reduce the active workforce...excess flight attendants.
What is the likelihood that we will be denied benefits through an appeal process?
Victoria, you are the first person I'm aware of who has been asked for a birth or marriage certificate. I would go ahead and send the Unemployment Agency copies of what they are asking for. Apparently they have a question about your identity. I am in Michigan and have experience only with Michigan procedures, not other states. Procedures are similar from state to state but not identical.
Dennis, I have not been able to find a provision in the Michigan statute or a court decision on the issue in your wife's case. My impression is that auto industry employees who are laid off under "reverse seniority" agreements (i.e., the lowest seniority employees are laid off first)are eligible for unemployment compensation benefits. It seems to me that your wife would have a good appeal argument that her SLIP leave was in effect or comparable to a layoff because if nobody had applied, somebody would have been laid off. If I were her I would appeal the re-determination because they are frequently incorrect and reversed by administrative law judges. It doesn't cost anything to appeal. It might be helpful if she could provide the judge with a statement from her employer to the effect that the procedure was adopted for the sole purpose of reducing work schedules. Finding her eligible for benefits would be consistent with the purpose of the Act. I can't predict which way the decision will go, but IMHO an appeal is worth a try.
I am in Michigan also. I sent in my appeals letter and copies of my birth certificate, social security card and drivers license. Hopefully it will be enough for them. It sounds to me like maybe someone is using my identity and got married but I got my credit reports and nothing like that has happened at least it doesn't show it on there. I am thinking it will be enough for them. I think maybe the issue may be because my employer had me down in their system as Tori Martin, instead of my full name Victoria Martin. But that wouldn't explain why they needed a marriage certificate when I've never been married.
Do you think I should worry?
Well, I'm not an expert on identity theft. But I would keep my eyes open and perhaps get replacement credit cards with different numbers.
I'm sorry. I meant do you think I'll have trouble getting my unemployment back up and running?
Well, I'm not sure. If you keep pestering the Agency you should be able to get the mixup straightened out. And if you get an adverse determination request a redetermination and if necessary a hearing before an Administrative Law Judge. Also, be sure to comply with all the time limits. The Agency is very strict about that. It's not uncommon for the judges to reverse the agency's decisions.
due to my amount of pay and the fact that I was 2 months away from full company benefeits, I found myslef being fired over the phone. Now when my unemployment was denied due to some kind of misconduct. I stated in my redetermination letter that no such action happened as a matter of fact I never had any written warnings or anything of that nature. I asked to see, and for my former employer to prove why they denied my unemployment. With no paperwork or anything to back up their false claim, I am assuming I will be found in favor, and reinstated. How long can I expect this to take?
It's hard to say how long it will take. Unemployment agencies all over the country are very busy. After a redetermination, the next step is an appeal to an Administrative Law Judge hearing. At that hearing the burden on the employer to prove misconduct. The judges usually take only a few days to mail you their decision, and the Unemployment Agency is usually pretty quick, if the judge rules in your favor, to mail you a check for your benefits. It's important for you to continue to certify every two weeks in accordance with Unemployment Agency procedures until your case is resolved. Good luck.
Thanks! I faxed in my appeal friday and now am waiting on the Judge. Is the hearing a physical court where I have to go? I am 4 hours north of grand Rapids. Where is the nearest court of appeals here the judge is located? Much Thanks
Hearing offices are located in Detroit, Flint, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Lansing, Livonia, Saginaw, Traverse City and Troy. Here's a link which has their addresses and phone numbers:
http://www.mhascarchives.com/ucp/law_office_locati
Usually the hearings are assigned to the office nearest your residence or nearest the employer where you worked.
You can request a telephone hearing if you are unable to travel to the location where the hearing is scheduled. Good luck!
Hi Ralph,
I like to ask for your advice. I was fired for tardiness in August and was denied unemployment. The determination wrote "You were fired for repeated lateness after being warned in writing. You knew your job was in jeopardy. You state you needed to visit your father whose hospitalized while on way to work. You felt this was more important. There is no evidence to show you made employer aware of situation. to perhaps work this out. in order to protect your job. This will be part of hearing."
In my defense, the written warning was in January. I never received any type of writtern or verbal warning during the few months prior to my termination. I felt that I should not be held at fault for tardiness caused by circumstances beyond my control, as my father was very sick in the hospital and I do have medical records. Although it may have been in the best interest of my employer to fire me, I believe my actions do not rise to the level of misconduct. Ralph, can you give me any advice on this? My hearing will be next week.
I agree that you should be eligible for Unemployment Compensation. Whether or not the judge will agree is hard to say. It will be helpful to bring information concerning your father's illness. Be prepared for the judge asking you why you were not able to visity your father after you completed your work day. The result may depend on how many times you were late and how late you were. It's also relevant whether your supervisor said anything to you on the occasions when you were late. If he didn't you would have an argument that your employer condoned your tardinesses, that is led you to believe that it was okay for you to be late when you had to visit your father in the hospital. It will be to your advantage to have an advocate represent you. And be sure and get to the hearing on time (preferably early) because being late for the hearing definitely would hurt your case. Good luck.
Thanks Ralph for the response! I will post the results after the hearing
I was offered a Voluntary Separation Package for Salaried workers by Ford and accepted it in 2007. Since then, I have tried very hard for other engineering jobs but have had no luck. I can not move out of Michigan as I lose about 1/3rd value of my home. Question is - Can I be eligible to claim unemployment benefits? Also will there be any tax savings/relief for us when we file our 2007 taxes? What do we show and how do we survive? Any thoughts suggestions? I see no light at the end of the tunnel...it is very dar and I can not breathe either............
Your eligibility for benefits may depend on the terms of your separation package. You may be able to convince the Unemployment Agency that your leaving was not truly voluntary. It doesn't cost anything to apply for benefits. It could be worth a try. I am not a tax expert and can offer no advice on your taxes.
The Detroit Free Press reported November 14, 2008 that 40,000 Michigan employers will pay an extra $67.50 per employee in 2009 to help pay off a $472.8 million shortfall in the unemployment benefits trust fund. That's money the state had to borrow from the federal government in order to pay benefits to an estimated 650,000 people this year.
The added solvency tax will affect businesses whose laid-off employees have collected more in benefits than the employers paid into the state unemployment fund. It's the first time the surcharge has been imposed since the recession of the early 1980s.
In addition, most employers will pay $21 more per employee to pay off the state's debt to the federal unemployment system.
Michigan's seasonally adjusted unemployment rate in September was 8.7%, second only to Rhode Island.
Hi Ralph,
Just like to follow up on my previous post. I was terminated for tardiness because I had to visit my dad in the hospital. I just had the hearing. My manager did not come but she sent her assistant manager to come, (someone I've never met before), and they had their lawyer. Towards the end. their lawyer requested that the person from the labor office I spoke with to be present, or something to that extent. The judge declined his request saying that he has enough information to make a decision. We were running out of time and their lawyer said he was not done asking me questions so the judge had to adjourn the hearing to a future date. Usually, how long does it take because I dont want to sit home waiting for another 2 months? Any thoughts? Thanks!
Probably a couple of weeks or a month at most.
Don't forget to keep calling MARVIN to certify every two weeks on your scheduled day.
i filed my redetermiation letter 2 weeks ago and have not heard anything. Kevin had his hearing in a week? Is this normal or is my former employer stalling? Whats the usual expected time to wait for a redetermination hearing?
Thanks Ralph!!
No more than a month. However, as you know the unemployment agancy in Michigan is quite busy these days. Don't forget that you must continue to certify by calling MARVIN until your claim and appeal is finally settled and thereafter if you are found eligible for benefits.
Unfortunately I moved to this state with hopes of pursuing a better life for me and my child. But since moving here I have seen an economic downfall of severity. Like many others here in this state I was fired from my job due to my job title changing in which I had no experience. Filed my unemployment claim like everyone else, gots pieces of paper in the mail did the protocole like I was suppose. Waited a month still heard nothing, finally got through the Marvin help line after a week of continous calling to get a woman that was not very helpful. All she could tell me was that they had 5-7 weeks to work on this claim due to the fact that I was fired. I said yes but there was no serious misconduct on my part. So I gritted my teeth and waited 3 more weeks to finally getting through only after 4 days of calling to get a woman that said oh your claim hasn't been worked on I will have to forward this to my supervisor and I stated ok will this be taken care of today. "No ma'am we are back logged so its going to be an additional 7-10 days before you get an answer. So I'm still searching for work but very limited here in this state since as most of you know. Moved to this state with high hopes - resorted to having to get my truck repo'd and living not sure where as of yet with myself and daughter since we know no one in this state. Aye Michigan a wonderful state to live in........... I hope no one else has to deal with the severity of michigan unemployment overlooking there claim as well. Bless you all.
You have my sympathy. But I don't have a good answer for your problem other than keep calling them, and maybe they'll take some action. IMPORTANT--Keep calling MARVIN until your claim and any appeals are finally settled. Good luck.
My benefit year is ending in March and I've been reading up on the extentions that were passed, but I'm still ot sure if I'll be able to get the extentions or not. I have not been back to work and have never gotten an extention or applied for one yet. If my benefit year ends in March and my regular benefits end in Jan. will I be able to get the full 13 week extention or just until March when my benefit year expires? I live in Michigan.
Thank you, I am so confused.
A 13-week extension was signed by President Bush yesterday. I have no further information on it. I'm sure the state Unemployment Agency will soon make an announcement. You may receive something in the mail. It's likely there will be information in the newspapers. In the meantime you should keep or resume calling MARVIN if Agency procedures provide for or require this. I have no previous experience with procedures for UC extensions. Sorry. I will post whatever information is available when I get it.
Hi--
My husband resigned from his job (verbally) and gave his employer 2 weeks notice. He has another job lined up to start in 2 weeks. With a week left his company decided that his services were no longer needed and they decided to lay him off. Is he eligible to receive unemployment for the week inbetween? He has 2 personal days he can use but nothing else for the 3 days,
Thanks
Marnie
I'm pretty sure he is but I'm not positive. Won't hurt to apply. (Im on vacation out-of-town and don't have access to my copy of the statute and court decisions.)
Hi Ralph,
Just a quick question. Is it common for judges to subpoena evidence such as records or documents in unemployment hearings? Thanks!
Not in my experience. The judges get a copy of the case file which includes the original application for benefits submitted by the claimant and material submitted by the employer as well as any other material submitted in response by the claimant. I've never handled a fraud case which might be one type of case when the Unemployment Agency might subpoena evidence about earnings which were not reported to the Agency. It's not uncommon for judges to issue subpoenas of witnesses upon request of claimants or employers, however. The judges normally issue subpoenas only upon request of one party or the other, in my experience.
hi i have been recieving benefit payments for 6 weeks now i recieved a monetary redetermination in the mail everything is the exact same on this form from the ones i have recieved before. Except for the referance code of 12 and a code 25 which states that the benefits have been redetermined for the benefit year. I am really not sure what this means i did call marvin on my scheduled time and they said that i would recieve my payment on wednesday novermber 26th but i never recieved the payment. Does this mean that my payments have been cut off and I am going to have to go in front of a judge for a hearing? im just very confused because marvin said i would recieve my payment and the weekly benefit amount is still the same on my redetermination.
Thank You, Brian
Hello
I am receiving unemployment benefits, I live in Indiana, I recently took a retail job 3 weeks ago and am only getting around 25 hours a week. There are starting to cut my hours, so now it will be less than that. I have gotten my unemloyment benefits while I am working, but they are reduced of course. I want to quit this job and keep looking, because I receive a lot more money from the unemployment. If I quit this job, will I lose my benefits? Thank You.
Brian, sorry I can't help you with that one. I don't have access to the definitions of the Agency's reference codes. You should continue to receive benefits unless the written redetermination says that you are not eligible. You'll have to check with the Agency or wait and see. Be sure to keep calling Marvin.
CJ, in Michigan and I suspect also in Indiana, the rule is that if you quit your job without good cause attributable to your employer you are disqualified from receiving benefits. If they reduced your hours significantly that might be good cause for quitting and not affect your eligibility. You should check with the Indiana Unemployment Agency before you quit in order to avoid risking the loss of your benefits. Sorry I'm not able to give you a more definite answer.
Hello Ralph,
I filed for Unemloyment in July, 2008 due to lack of work and have been receiving benefits since. In Novermber 2008 I received a request for information from UA stating that my employer said I voluntary quit, I answered the questions and faxed them back. In the meantime I still received benefits through November, 2008
However December 1, 2008 I receive a determination from Unemployment that I am disqualified for benefits under 29(1) (A) and restitution is due.
It also states I am Not Disqualifed under Section 62 (b) of the MES Act.
Can you help explain to me what this means. I plan to protest.
Please advise.
Thank You
Section 62 (b) of the Michigan statute provides for stiffer penalties for people who collect benefits as a result of making INTENTIONALLY false statements on their application or in information furnished to the unemployment agency.
Section 29 (1) (a) provides that persons who voluntarily leave their jobs without good cause attributable to their employer are disqualified. Apparently your employer told the Agency that you quit without good cause. Someone who quits is not eligible for benefits UNLESS they (1) had a serious problem (for example, pay checks bouncing, forced to work in unsafe conditions, instructed to do something illegal or dishonest, siginificant reduction in pay or benefits, discrimination or harrassment) and (2) they followed the complaint or grievance procedure and gave the employer an opportunity to correct the problem. The burden in the court hearing is on the employee to establish that he or she resigned for good cause attributable to the employer and that the matter was called to the employer's attention.These protests are not easy to win, in my experience.
If your position is that you did not resign or leave voluntarily, the judge will base his decision on your testimony and that of your employer, whichever he finds more credible.
And be sure to CONTINUE TO CALL MARVIN until your appeal is resolved!
If you think of it, let us know how your case turns out. Good luck!
My husband was fired from his job, when he filed for unemployment, the company disputed and said that he refused an offer they made to him. he got denied for unemployement benefits for refusing suitable work, we had the appeal last week and are waiting on the decision. The judge wanted to hear nothing about him being fired, or quittin, she only wanted to hear about job refusal, my husbands point was how do you defend yourself against that when you were never offered a job. There were 2 and my husband when they fired him, at the hearing one said she offereed him a postion making the same amont of money, then the owner, said it was a 20, 000 difference, one said he quit right then, the other said she didnt know what happend, she left it up to the owner and him, they were all 3 in the same meeting, and my husband pointed out that, he pleaded with them for his job, then they went on to say he had poor job performance, and that the positon they offered him was not available, he was a district, and they were trying to say they were going to put him in a unit, (demotion), he stated that the unit they said they were offering was not availble cause he had a manager in it, and they said she was being promoted, he did not know that, so i guess they were trying to say they were swapping their positions, anway, What will the judge be going by their indesprencies. Its kinda of a he said she said, so who has the burden of proof, and should my husband have said to defend himself.
it should have read, he tried to prove the position they offered was not available. the judge didnt ask alot about the difference in the jobs neither, how will she figure out if the job was really offered, as they had no written proof, just their word, We figure he will be denied again, since it was 2 against one, we even sent in notarized statments from the other managers stating that the one that fired him told them she had fired him and the reasons, but the judge didnt want to hear it cause it was wheather he was fired/quit, and she was there for job refusal. what does the company need to have to prove that he refused a job, he had worked there for 7 years, and had always been dedicated, he even left our wedding reception to go into work, and to be fired, for no reason and then for the company to lie has really upset us
Valerie, please let us know how the judge's decsion turns out and what her reasoning was. Seems to me she should have taken testimony and allowed cross examination on your husband's position that he was told he was fired for poor performance because, if that was the employer's claim that he refused an opening wouldn't make sense. Also, offering him a significant demotion might well constitute good cause for leaving attributable to the employer. If one of the parties requests consideratin of an issue not on the Notice of Hearing, the judge can allow it, provided the other party agrees. If not, the hearing should be adjourned to allow the other party to prepare its case on that issue. Further as you noted, there was a significant discrepancy between the two employer witnesses. That should cast doubt in the judge's mind on the credibility of their testimony. Was your husband represented by an advocate or attorney at the hearing?
no we didnt get someone to represent us, we thouht we had enough proof going into the hearing to prove that he was terminated, but once hearin started, and she didnt want to hear that, we realized it was not good. i will be sure to let you know the decision, and i assume we can appeal it again? What would be considered good cause for refusing a job to the judge, since that is what she gathered facts on, and who had the burden of proof, she started with the company first, do they have to proove that the job existed, after searching the net for days, i have found that this is a weird case, and have not found any other case like it. My opinion would be that he would be entitiled, he lost his job, he did try to keep his job for months prior, the woman that fired him was promoted at the beginnng of the year, so once she had power over him, which she hated him, she startd making his job horrible, which we had to file with the eeoc, so my husband went to the owner asked to be transfered in august to another district, but was told nothing was available, and the owner said the 3 of them should have a meeting to get it out, now granted the owner and the one that hates my husband are like best friends, so he even watched himself to not say anything bad about her. so moreless, 6 weeks later, she decides to get rid of him, on the statment she first sent in to unemployment she put on it, that when he quit, he stated twice that he did not want to work for her, during the hearing he made it a point to ask her if he had ever said that to her, and she said so and so said, and he said did i ever tell you that, and she said no, she had told unemployment the new job offered was the same amount of money on the intial letter, on the phone she said it was 5000 different, then the owner said it was a 20,000 difference. But we dont know what or how he was to defend him self to prove that they didnt offer him the job, and fired him without giving the facts about being fired.
i really think the person who first gathered facts on the case, did a bad job, cause they went by everything the company had said even after my husband tried to explain to them what had happened. Their determination was "refused offer of suitable work for personal reasons." Which is crazy cause he knew she was trying to get rid of him, and did everything he could to try and keep his job. But i guess the woman, was nice enough to wait until a week later, after we closed on our new house, to get rid of him. She knew we was purchasing it, and had all of a sudden became interested in it.
Yes, you have the right to appeal the judge's decision to the MES Board of Review in Lansing, Michignan. Your appeal must get to the B.O.R. within 30 days of the date of the judge's decision. (A postmark within 30 days isn't good enough. The Board of Review must RECEIVE the appeal within 30 days of the judge's decision. The Board usually doesn't reverse the judges' decisison but it doesn't cost anything other than the postage on your appeal letter, so it might be worth a try if the decision goes against your husband.
One point worth noting: For claimants and employers who are not represented in administrative law judge hearings, the judge has an obligation to act in lieu of the unrepresented party to assure that he or she gets a fair hearing. If you husband believes the judge did not assure him a fair hearing it might be worth pointing out in your letter of appeal why he believes that. (This could be, for example, the judge didn't allow testimony or evidence which could have helped your case, or the judge allowed hearsay testimony on behalf of the employer, etc.)Good luck!
UPDATE:
It will be another 4-7 weeks until the judge can get to my paperwork. I asked when and where the hearing would be held and the person on the other end said it would be a paper hearing..meaning the judge looks at all the paper work and everything sent to him/her and would make the decision.
My question is this..everyone here says they went in front of a judge for a hearing and I am being told that I dont have to. Is something wrong here or am I just too early in my redetermination case and havent gotten that far along in my appeal yet? It is my first appeal for redetermination.
Thanks Ralph.
Miss Conduct,
You didn't say what state you are from. In Michigan all administrative law judge hearings are in person hearings or telephone hearings. These hearings are tape recorded. If either party appeals, the transcripts are typed up and sent to each party and to the Board of Review in Lansing. The Board of Review rarely holds hearings. Except in unusual cases it bases its decisions on appeals on the written record of the case, the Administrative Law Judge's decision and on the transcript of the hearing.
If you have requested a re-determination of an initial determination by the unemployment agency there will be no hearing. You will receive a re-determination based on the information you sent them and on any additional information sent to them by your employer. Once you receive a re-determination you have 30 days to appeal, requesting a hearing before an administrative law judge. It's very important to get that appeal in WITHIN 30 days. A post mark isn't good enough. The Agency must RECEIVE your appeal within 30 days. Also, keep calling MARVIN in Michigan or certifying in accordance with the Agency's procedures in your state. Otherwise, even if you win your case you won't get benefits for weeeks for which you don't certify. Good luck.
how long does it take to receive a decision after you have had your appeal hearing, the referee, said she would have her decision by the end of the day, that was over a week ago, is it a good sign, since it is taking longer.
OMG, i have been on unemployment since march, and am now on the extension, i just received yesterday, a letter for appeal, the hearing is for tomorrow, on "appeal filed timely", how can the company i used to be employed with, try to appeal it 8 mths later, and why would i have to attend this hearing, what could i possibly have to say about wheather or not they filed thier appeal timely...
thanks for any information, as i am not sure as what i am walking into..
Jonathan, normally the decisions are out in two or three days or at most a week. Give it a few more days and if you don't receive it call the judge's secretary. Perhaps it got lost in the mail.
Krllyy, its hard for me to give you an answer without seeing the file and the Notice of Hearing which states the issues that will be decided by the judge after the hearing. It does strike me as a bit late for the employer to be appealing--it's possible that the employer timely protested the original determination awarding you unemployment compensation and lost on the re-determination and filed a timely appeal of the re-determination requesting a hearing before an administrative law judge. It sounds as if there is a question whether the employer filed his appeal on time. If he was late, the issue will be whether or not he had good cause for a late appeal.
Make sure you get to the hearing on time! If you don't have an advocate the judge is supposed to act as your advocate and make sure you get a fair hearing.
thanks, yeah the did protest the intial determation, and i won, and they never did appeal it, i filed in march, started receiving in may. I am already on my extension of ui, so dont understand why they would try to appeal now. The responded to the intial determination. and lost. so since the hearing is on wheather the appeal was filed timely. why do i need to be a participant. I feel the company should have filed somethin over 6 mths ago, it they wantd to appeal it, the actual one attending the hearing is the insurance company for the company i worked for, they stated they did not receive the paperwork until recently, how does the insurance company have anyting to do with my claim, i guess their rates must be high or somthing.
thanks for the advice
Hi
I am trying to get an answer to an unemployment question and was hoping you could help. I was hospitalized because I had three kidney stones, one of which obstructed my left kidney. I used up PTO time for the three days I was in the hospital and on the fourth day, I had surgery and only 4.5 hours of vacation time remaining. Because I was short 3.5 PTO hours, I was terminated for violation of company policy, which was no unpaid time off. I submitted letters from my doctor, discharge papers from the hospital, and returned to work the day after my surgery because I was told that if I tried to utilize my short term disability, which kicked in the 8th day of sickness, I would be terminated for abandonment of my job, which was missing three days of unpaid time off. I worked for 4 days and on the 4th day, my employer fired me for taking unpaid time off (the 3.5 hours I was short of PTO time on my surgery day). I filed for unemployment, which was denied because it was determined that I was terminated for excessive absenteeism which is a violation of company policy and it was found that I was fired for a deliberate disregard of my employers interests. I have since protested that determination, citing that absences without reasonable cause is misconduct and that illness or child care needs, court appearances and the like are not absence without reasonable cause. My question is, how long can unemployment take to process my redetermination request. It took them 7 weeks to determine I was not eligible for benefits and I am really struggling to make ends meet. I have continued to certify and I have submitted documentation of my illness to them with the protest. I have been calling the unemployment agency toll free number for two days and cannot get through to them because they are experiencing high call volume.
Thank you for any information you can give me.
UPDATE and still need advice, ok as the blogs from earlier had the hearin on the issue of work refusal, receive a letter today stating all the info that was discussed at the hearing and then this
In the unemployment insurance program letter number 984, addressed the issue of what constitutes "New Work" Theh dept held, in part, that if a workers present employer tells the worker that he will lose his job if he refuses to accept a transfer to other duties or a change in duties, terms, conditions, of his employment, which are not authorized by the existing employment contract then the worker as been discharged and offered "New Work" If a worker faced with such a choice, becomes unemployed by refusing the offer of "new work" his entitlement to benefits must first be based on the THRESHOLD dishcarge issue:and then on the SUBSEQUENT work refusal issue.
Wherefore, there can not be a work refusal without first being a severance in employment, this case is to be remove from the Appeals Branch docket. The ui determination dated oct. 9 is to be voided and held naught. This case is remanded to the local office to investigate the claimants job separation from the captioned employer.
ok, so we have to start over?? Is this for real, so now who is investigating, what and how are they investigating it, now what do we have to proove. Its getting to the point where i am thinking we are going to need a lawyer, but how would a lawyer, make things any quicker, or even get this resolved. Any info you have would be very beneficial. Does this mean that we have to start at the bottom of the totem pole, and wait for someone to work the case again, and will they contact us for more information, or use what they got. I am finding all of this so ridicoulous. What i am taking from this letter, is that he got denied, because someone did not do their job, and then the judge isnt allowed to make a decision, that she has to send it back to the,. we are so confused, and broke at that, This has been going on since Sept, and to get this saying the judge did not even make a decision is dramatizing.
UPDATE and still need advice, ok as the blogs from earlier had the hearin on the issue of work refusal, receive a letter today stating all the info that was discussed at the hearing and then this
In the unemployment insurance program letter number 984, addressed the issue of what constitutes "New Work" Theh dept held, in part, that if a workers present employer tells the worker that he will lose his job if he refuses to accept a transfer to other duties or a change in duties, terms, conditions, of his employment, which are not authorized by the existing employment contract then the worker as been discharged and offered "New Work" If a worker faced with such a choice, becomes unemployed by refusing the offer of "new work" his entitlement to benefits must first be based on the THRESHOLD dishcarge issue:and then on the SUBSEQUENT work refusal issue.
Wherefore, there can not be a work refusal without first being a severance in employment, this case is to be remove from the Appeals Branch docket. The ui determination dated oct. 9 is to be voided and held naught. This case is remanded to the local office to investigate the claimants job separation from the captioned employer.
ok, so we have to start over?? Is this for real, so now who is investigating, what and how are they investigating it, now what do we have to proove. Its getting to the point where i am thinking we are going to need a lawyer, but how would a lawyer, make things any quicker, or even get this resolved. Any info you have would be very beneficial. Does this mean that we have to start at the bottom of the totem pole, and wait for someone to work the case again, and will they contact us for more information, or use what they got. I am finding all of this so ridicoulous. What i am taking from this letter, is that he got denied, because someone did not do their job, and then the judge isnt allowed to make a decision, that she has to send it back to the,. we are so confused, and broke at that, This has been going on since Sept, and to get this saying the judge did not even make a decision is dramatizing.
Kimm, As you know there are a lot of unemployed people in Michigan and around the country. The Unemployment Agency is quite busy. From what you said it sure doesn't sound to me like your absence was misconduct. I'm not sure how long the redeterminations are taking so I don't have an answer for your question. Don't give up and keep calling Marvin until your case is finally resolved. Good luck!
Valerie, it sounds like your case is starting over at square one. I am not familiar with unemployment letter number 984 and I can't help you much on that one. In Michigan, significant (a bit of a gray area in case law) changes in an employee's job or compensation can be considered good cause for resigning attributable to the employer. I believe there is a case where the court ruled that a 15 % cut in wages was good cause. Cancellation of health care insurance or the pension plan might also be good cause. Other changes in job title, shift, or duties would not be considered good cause for resigning or refusal of an offer. Let us know the outcome. So, the bottom line may likely be the nature of the changes offered to you. If they were radically different you may be okay. Otherwise you may be held not eligible. Let us know the outcome. Good luck.
Mr. Deeds,
I was let go from a tv station in Michigan that happened to have a union. The wrong union (UAW instead of something that would be geared toward tv), but I was fired for "surfing the internet." I have several problems with this. One, my boss just didn't like me anyway and I believe he has been searching for quite sometime to find a reason to fire me. When I was fired I had worked there 2 months shy of 2 years. To be honest I did use the internet. For my job and for personal use. Everyone does. Everyone in the building does, it's a known thing through out. Every once in a while a manager might say something like, "try to stay off the internet." But no one really took that seriously. They still do not. I see updates on myspace from several friends still working there, that say they are at work or working, etc. I also believe I was fired under the intention to cut costs. When I was working there, there would be two workers in my dept. with two jobs to do. One job required your entire 8 hour shift, the other was normally done within 2 to 4 hours. Leaving extra time with no extra work. Managment started to catch onto this. I know for a fact that they have not replaced my position. They didn't hire another full time operator but they use the couple of part timers to switch on and off a couple days to make up for my absence. I have spoken with several workers there and they laugh when I tell them my official reasoning for being fired. I can prove that others still use the internet for personal time while at work, even after they are told not to. I am currently trying to protest my determination but I'm having a hard time with it. Can you be of any help? Are there any "loop holes" that my story fits into? Also, I just found a job the other day but I would still like to collect my unemployment for those two months...as I am severly in debt now. Is this possible?
Also...just to let you know it took me about 5 to 6 weeks to get a determination in the first place. So it is a bit slow.
It said that I was fired under the MES ACT, SEC. 29(1)(B)...what does that say exactly?
Jamie
The easy part first:
Sec 29(1) An individual is disqualified from receiving benefits if he or she:
(b)Was suspended or discharged for misconduct connected with the individual's work or intoxication while at work.
Questions: Did you receive an employee handbook stating a rule against surfing the Internet? Was such a rule otherwise clearly communicated to employees?
Was the rule applied uniformly to all employees, or selectively?
From what you said the rule was not enforced. If not, this means that the employer "condoned" the use of the Internet by employees. This is probably your strongest argument.
Had you been specifically warned on previous occasions not to use the Internet? If so, that won't help. If not, it's a point in your favor.
Had you received any previous formal warnings, reprimands or disciplinary action for other issues? If not, that's in your favor.
As you observed, the fact that your position was not filled after you were dismissed is an indication that the your employer's real motive was to reduce costs and had nothing to do with Internet use.
Another important factor is whether you neglected your job in order to use the Internet. If you used the Internet during lunch or other breaks and when you were caught up on your work, that's in your favor. The employer should be required to prove that you wasted time on the Internet and neglected your job which would be misconduct. Occasionally using the Internet as did many other employees when there was a lull in your work would not, in my opinion, be misconduct. However the judge could go either way on this case. Some are stricter than others. They simply say "You violated a published reasonable company rule and that is misconduct." End of case. The case should turn on the issue of whether your use of the Internet was frequent enough that you were wasting time when you had work to do and therefore neglecting your job, not whether you violated a rule that was commonly violated by lots of other people as it is in nearly every office in the country.
It will be to your advantage to get an advocate to assist you in preparing for the hearing and represent you at the hearing.
Be sure to continue to call MARVIN until your appeal is finally resolved.
[A couple of years ago I helped win a case against one of the auto companies who fired an employee for sending a couple of personal emails from the office. He said and I knew from several friends at the company that lots of people at the company used their office computers to send personal emails, much the same as personal phone calls at the office. The claimant told me that his boss often communicated with his wife by email. We asked him at the hearing if that was true, and he admitted it was. The claimant won his case.]
Good luck!
another update, and becoming very disappointed in the unemplyment system.
we recevied another determination, no one had even contacted my husband for information, but this determination is another denial.
benefits are not payable whan a worker is discharged for misconduct connected with the work. the clamaint was discharged for unsatisfactory work performance.
The claimant was aware of his job responsibilites, but repeatedly failed to perform the work satisfactorily. the employer had warned the claimant. therefore, the discharge was for miscondut in connection with the work.
with that being said, okay so the company sends in that he quit, then during the appeal they stated that when my husband requested the meeting to be transferred, because he was being harassed, but the company said that they made it an opportunity to tel him about his job performance. not true, he has worked for this company for 7 years, and all of a sudden he does not know how to do his job? this is crazy, how does it go from being a quit, to know being fired for not doing his job. so i guess we have to appeal again. i just wanted to know, is there anyone higher up than all these unemployment people, that we can contact regarding this case, we have been given the run around, and no one is investigating any thing. the company dont even have write ups or nothing, so where are they coming up with this decision. its to the point, of why even bother with it, we have already lost everything we had, had to move in with our parents with our 5 kids, it just really disappoints me that our system is this messed up.
Valerie, I suggest you appeal and request a hearing before an administrative law judge and get an advocate to represent you. Advocates are provided without charge by the Unemployment Agency. Your husband has 30
days from the date of the determination to get his appeal in to the Unemployment Agency (A postmark isn't good enough. They Must RECEIVE IT). It doesn't cost anything to appeal. You have nothing to lose and plenty to gain if you win your appeal. The Agency is busy and makes mistakes which are often reversed by the administrative law judges.
thanks, what is the difference, between the referee and the administrative law judge, is that where you actually go into a court house, or is it done over the phone also. Another question, now since this determination is for work performance, what will the employer have to provide, there are not write ups and stuff, so will it all be based on hearsay again. lol or will it be different this time, and they actually have to prove something, we have all the p&ls, that show his numbers, and his job description, theres not that we know of that the compnay can use for poor job performance. I just dont understand, who decides what laws need to be applied. From all this, is almost like they are working for the company. If the company has the burden of proof, what exactly does that mean. I used to be a paralegal, and that is why all of this is blowing me away. I dont understand, how when we have all kinds of stuff like witnesses, written statemnets to prove his side, yet no one wants to hear it, and all of the decisions are being based of "just what the company says"
if we get an advocate what exactly do they do, do they know the laws about this stuff, and does it look better, do they move things along faster. I would assume, we would have to go over everything with them, and how do they know how to answer the questions correctly for the judge.
Referee=administrative law judge. In Michigan there are 15 or so hearing offices where administrative law judges hold hearings on UC appeals. The hearings usually last around a half-hour to an hour depending on the number of witnesses and how complicated the case is. The hearings are usually in person, but telephone hearings can be arranged if you live far from the hearing office. You can be represented by an attorney or an advocate if you wish. If you are not represented it is the duty of the referee or judge to make sure you get a fair hearing.
Hearsay testimony is not admissible. Records kept in the ordinary course of business are admissible--for example timeclock records, attendance records and the like. In misconduct cases the burden of proof is on the employer.
Advocates are tested and certified by the Unemployment Agency. The process is as follows: The agency sends you a list of advocates. You call as many of them as you like. If they aren't too busy when you call they will discuss your case with you over the phone. You then select an advocate and give him your case number and other information. He gets a copy of your case file from the Unemployment Agency and reads it. He then discusses the case again with you and prepares you for the hearing. The advocate does not "answer questions correctly for the judge." He asks the claimant questions designed to present his side of the case in a concise and orderly way. The claimant answers the questions put to him by his advocate and by the judge. And the advocate has the opportunity to cross-examine the employer witness(es). The judge sends the claimant and the employer his written decision, usually within a week.
If you think of it, let us know how your husband's case turns out. Good luck.
Hi Ralph, I had been on unemployment for the past several months then 2 weeks ago finally got a job. The problem is that during my first week of employment I become very ill and had to miss 2 days. The company had a policy of of during first 4 weeks of employment you could only miss 1 day any more and you would be terminated. My question is I reopened my claim and I was wondering if it would be approved? Does missing work due to illness disqualify you?
In my opinion, you should be eligible for unemployment compensation. Absence due to illness is not misconduct under the UC statute. You should contact the agency and re-activate your applicaton for benefits or re-apply. I'm not sure exactly what the procedure is. Good luck. If you think of it let us know the result.
Thanks Ralph I will let you know the outcome. Happy Holidays!
Would eligibility be questioned in MI for vacation time spent out of state, even though the vacation was planned/paid for prior to collecting benefits, but occurred during a time of collection?
I am uncertain as to how to handle the above question in regard to unemployment. Do I claim the weeks I am gone?
The answer might depend on how long you are out of state. If the agency finds out that you are out of state for an extended period it might question your availability for work. If I were you I would continue to call MARVIN and certify that you continue to be unemployed and seeking work. I looked but was unable to find a court decision on the circumstance you described. In my opinion, taking a vacation does not mean that you are no longer attached to the labor market.
nice hub
Hi Ralph, I live in Michigan and will be laid off after next week. I've already signed up for classes for the upcoming winter semester starting in January, but will this disqualify me from receiving unemployment insurance? Should I drop the classes to be on the safe side? Thanks in advance.
The classes could affect your eligibility. I would not drop the classes. You can still be attached to the labor market and seeking work while you are in school, especially if you aren't taking a heavy schedule. If the issue comes up you can tell the agency that you are willing to drop out of your classes if you are offered a job or you will work durning hours when you aren't in class. Plenty of people have done it.
Thank you so much for the quick reply. This issue has been making me nervous since I found out about the layoff, but I feel much more positive about it now. Thanks again.
If you think of it let us know how your situation works out.
I left a position with a temporary employment agency due to a maternity leave. When I was ready to return to work (the specific date confirmed by a letter from my physician), the position was no longer available. No other positions were available.
I was notified by the UIA that my employer indicated that I voluntarily quit. There is a redetermination pending.
I sent in my response and letter from my doctor. What are my chances that I will lose my UI claim?
You should be found to be eligible beginning with the date you were able to return to work from your maternity leave. One question--what did you tell the temp agency when you started your maternity leave? What did they tell you?
Thanks Ralph. I appreciate the quick feedback.
I told the temp agency that I would be available to work after 6 weeks - however, I was not ready for 8 weeks (if that matters). The plan was to try to place me back on my previous assignment, or find something else. Nothing was available. That is when I filed for UI.
I did obtain a letter from the agency verifying that I took maternity leave and contacted them when I was available for work, but no work was available.
This temp agency outsources their payroll needs, and it was this outside firm that indicated I had "voluntarily quit". I have not been able to reach the individual who indicated that I quit. However, the temp agency admitted an error was made and is supporting my claim 100%.
My concern is that I took a maternity leave from a temp agency. They are not obligated to hold a job for me - such as would be the case if I was a direct employee. So, technically, I'm thinking that a maternity leave would be considered "quitting" in this situation.
Hopefully not. Again, thanks so much!!!! I'm so glad I found you.
You are entitled, by law, to take a maternity leave under the Family and Medical Leave Act. Doing so should not be considered "quitting" or a voluntary leaving under the UC statute. I wonder why the payroll firm responded to the Unemployment Agency's request for information about your claim?? Is it possible that you are actually an employee of the company that does your temp agency's payroll? Apparently, the company that does the payroll also is paying the unemployment insurance tax. These kinds of outfits tend to do anything and everything they can to prevent anyone from collecting unemployment compensation against their account. If you think of it, please let us know how your case turns out. Good luck!
I was employed by a temp services. My 1st assignment was a temp to perm position, however the company decided to close the office after 8 months and send the jobs out of state. I applied for unemployment and started recieving benefits. After 6 weeks I got another temp to perm position. I got fired after 29 days. I was not aware that I had to re-certify. I now know all the locations where this information is located. I have decided to appeal the decision because I live paycheck to paycheck and really need the money. The letter states good cause was not established. What is good cause? What is the legal way around this?
It sounds to me that the good cause refers to your failure to re-certify. The Agency is quite strict about enforcing all of its rules. It won't cost you anything to pursue your case. However, the bar for establishing good cause for failure to certify is pretty high--hospitalization, death in the family, serious illness or the like. The unemployment compensation statute and regulations are full of little fishhooks or traps for unwary applicants. Sorry I don't have a more encouraging answer for you. Some of the judges are more sympathethic to claimants than others. You might get lucky.
i have an appeal hearing coming soon, and the issue, is discharge for misconduct, unsatisfactory work performance. dont they have the burden of proof, and will they have to prove i had bad work performance, or is it based on just what they say.
and what is the best way of going about proving otherwise.
i have an appeal hearing coming soon, and the issue, is discharge for misconduct, unsatisfactory work performance. dont they have the burden of proof, and will they have to prove i had bad work performance, or is it based on just what they say.
and what is the best way of going about proving otherwise.
i dont feel that i performed badly, my numbers were the highest in the compnay, and i never missed work, i figured i would send in my numbers to the judge, will that help, but what will the company need to send in to prove i perforemed unsatisfactoily. i had only had 1 write up in 7 years, and it was nothing related to my performance, it was for things beyond my control that the people beneath me did, but i guess i was to control thier actions before they did them so i got wrote up. if i send in paper evidence will it be looked at, if the compnay sends none, and after reading some of these posts, it seems as if judges make their decision, on hearsay. so should i waste my tme, in sending anything in, or should i spend my time on coming up with questions to prove my case.
Mr. Deeds:My wife recently accepted a new position in California. I gave my Michigan employer more than 2 weeks notice, asked if there was a possibility of staying on in the new location (which was not possible), but eventually quit my position to move with my family. After a few months without a new position I applied for unemployment and was recently denied.I have read your descriptions of MES Act Sec 29(1)(A) previously posted - does moving for family reasons automatically disqualify me from getting unemployment benefits? Assuming I move forward with my appeal, can I appeal a decision without appearing (I have no cost effective way to get from California to Michigan for a hearing)?Thanks for this site - I've gained more information in the last 15 minutes than I have from the hours of wading through the UIA.
Mark, Yes, the burden of proof is on the company by non-hearsay testimony (actual eye witnesses) and records kept in the course of business (time clock records, attendance records, production records, records of recent previous disciplinary write-ups and the like). You or your advocate or representative will have the opportunity to cross-examine the employer witness(es) and, if appropriate object to any hearsay testimony the employer attempts to offer. If the employer brings more than one witnesses, the additional witnesses should be sequestered (instructed to leave the room and wait until called to testify). After the employer witnesses have testified and been cross-examined you will have the opportunity to testify. Your testimony will take the form of questions from the judge and/or your advocate and your answers. In addition you have the right to submit relevant written material as claimant exhibits in support of your case.
It will be to your advantage to obtain an advocate to assist you in preparing for the hearing and in the hearing.
An hour is allowed for the hearings which are tape recorded in case either party appeals the judge's decision. If there is an appeal the tape recording is transcribed and a copy given to each party. The appeals are decided by the Board of Review based on the written transcript of the hearing and any exhibits.
Misconduct under Michigan law is defined as wanton and wilful disregard of the employer's interest. The alleged must be significant (serious) and intentional, not a single instance of carelessness or taking a few minutes too long for lunch. Don't forget to keep calling MARVIN.
Good luck at your hearing! Let us know how your hearing turns out.
Dustin, thanks for your kind comment. I looked through my summary of unemployment compensation cases and was not able to find one that fits your circumstances. Therefore, I'm not able to answer your question. However, it doesn't cost anything to appeal to an administrative law judge hearing, and you don't have to appear in person. You are entitled to a telephone hearing if you send a request for one in advance to the judge named in the Notice of Hearing. In the meantime you should continue to call MARVIN to certify every week until your case is finally resolved. You will not be eligible for benefits for any weeks for which you do not certify in accordance with Unemployment Agency procedures, even if you win your appeal. I'll do a little more looking around for an answer to your questin tomorrow, and I'll post anything that I find. Good luck!
Dustin, I'm sorry, but I wasn't able to find anything helpful to your case. I may be missing something but I don't think so. Just in case you may as well appeal. It doesn't cost you anything. Good luck!
I was fired a little over a month ago...I was told it was because I had to many overrings and voids, but I never recieved a letter from Homeoffice warning me that I had to many voids and never recieved a verbal warning from my boss. While sitting in this meeting I was told that by the guy from HQ loss prevention department that somthing recently came to their attention about me, (mind you that I was told this meeting was about showing us how to read p & l statements and we had our own private meetings times) Well the guy from HQ had said that to me and I knew right away what he was getting at, I have had my wages garnished due to judgements that were placed on me, more than one garnishment. I admitted that to him right away, I had told my boss about it when the payments where first being garnished, about 5 weeks before I was fired. While sitting in the meeting I began to realize that this meeting wasn't about P & Ls and that he was trying to accuse me of something. I kept telling him that I was confused and he just kept using words like, have you knowingly missed used the POS (overrings and voids) for personal gain, I had replied no, then he asked other questions about overrings and manager discount. I told him I never used manager discount for any thing else other then for management discount. He asked about my personal life, what was going on, about my husband and I had admitted that I had personal issues, ( I knew again that my boss had said something because I have confided in her about it). In the end he said that I had 108 dollars in overrings that are unjustified. I told him I thought that was wrong. I knew that my boss had asked me to void a 66-70 order out because she had forgot to do it when she was their and I did, so I thought that was the unjustified overring I did and it didn't amount to 108 dollars. Well, I was fired and asked to pay them 108, but they never used theft, steal or stole anything. I felt that they were trying to get rid of me due to my judgements/garnishments. I know that met with another manager right after me, because he/she came while I was in my meeting. Well, I applied for unemployment in MI and said I was fired for other and I had two employer to claim from (18months) I just recieved a re-determination (what is a redetermation?) The amount is still the same, however the time frame is different just one year now (instead of the 18) and the amount of money is only 10,000 (for my earnings for the time frame)...then the same day recieved a letter stating they need me to explain the follow.... (then it read that the employer stated I was fired for theft.) they wanted to me state the date I was fired and why and did I steal the items if not what did i take etc...I'm confused, what do I do? What does this mean? Before I filed I called my boss and asked what to put down for unemployment and she said she didn't know. If I was denied for the one employer will I be accepted for unemployment from the other? Is this why I recieved a redetermination showing only income I made from that employer who didnt reject my claim?
Help....
If you appeal your redetermination (that just means a second decision or determination that you are uneligible) your former employer will have to come to a hearing before a judge and prove that you are ineligible due to misconduct. You or your representative will have the opportunity to cross-examine any employer witnesses, and then you will have the opportunity to testify in response to questions from the judge and/or your representative. The judge's decision will be determined on the evidence presented by your employer and by you and whether he believes your testimony or that of your employer. Without reading the entire record I'm unable to comment on your likelihood of winning an appeal.
I worked in Auto Sales for the last 2 years I walked into work today to a meeting they said we were going to part ways today and had me sign a termination paper that stated "At Will" the manager stated that it will help me get unemployment till I find another job. Is that true? I hope.
Ralph,
I'm in Michigan and was fired from a radio station due to lack of work. I was one of a few that were let go. They all filed 'lack of work' and received benefits right away...I filed 'fired' because I was...but not for disciplinary or other reasons...and I have been waiting for benefits since before Thanksgiving...it is now January 5th! I have kept up my MARVIN calls as scheduled...returned my question form promptly and have been waiting and waiting...for my employer to respond which probably won't happen...how long do they have to respond? Based on your previous advice to others, I am confident I will receive benefits but when?...I have read where you wrote to be patient due to the busy unemployment claims especially here in Michigan...and I saw where you mentioned to call or write UI...but they won't even take calls...it is a 'we are experiencing high call volumes' recording all day long. It has been over 6 weeks and believe me Christmas was awful...am I doing everything i can?...is there more to do?...where can I call that someone will answer? should I just calm down and wait?...Thanks, Jim
Eric, You should be eligible for UC. The document indicates that you were an "at will" employee not covered by an employment contract. You were laid off and should get UC. Be sure and pay close attention to all the rules and procedures. The Unemployment Agency is very strict about deadlines, calling every two weeks on the appointed day of the week, etc.
Jim, I don't have any good remedies to suggest. From what you said you should be eligible for benefits. The agency is very busy right now and that's why they are slow in making a determination of eligibility on your case. When you told them you were "fired" that may have raised a question in their mind about your eligibility due to possible misconduct. It would have been better if you had used the term "laid off due to lack of work." You might try to see if you could get some help from Michigan Works http://www.michiganworks.org/page.cfm/98/ There you can actually speak face to face with actual humans. There is an office in Troy as well as other locations around the state. Good luck!
What does a re determination mean? Also, If I was denied unemployment from one employer, can I be approved for unemployment from the other employer. Both of which I had worked for durning the last 18 months. (Based in MI)
A determination simply means a decision or ruling by the Unemployment Agency on your eligibility for benefits. First you get a determination. If you tell the Agency you don't agree with the determination the will review your case and any additional information you and/or the employer send them and make a "redetermination," that is a second ruling on your eligibility. If you disagree with the re-determination you have a right to appeal within 30 days and request a hearing before an administrative law judge. There may be circumstances where you might be eligible for benefits as a result of your work at a second employer. That's a bit of a long shot, however. I'm not able to evaluate your situation based on the information you supplied.
I been working with my job since 2006, at the end of the month I will recieve seperation papers due to the fact that I am pregnant and the company does not offer maternity leave. will I beable to appy for unemployment?
My redetermination doesn't give me a answer of weather or not I will be getting benifits, just states that Instead of be eliable from July 2007 til Nov 2008, I am eleiable from July 2007 to June 2008..this makes no sense...plus the amount of money I made change as well, from 35,000 to 10,000. I call marvin and still there is no date of when I will recieve the money.
Mary, I can't tell what happened to your claim. Keep calling Marvin until your claim and any appeals are settled. If you disagree with your redetermination I suggest you file an appeal requesting a hearing before an administrative law judge. They are pretty good about correcting determination errors by the Unemployment Agency.
Jackie, you should be entitled to a leave of absence under the Family and Medical Leave Act. Aside from that, the Michigan Supreme Court in WArren v Caro Community Hosp, 457 Mich 361 (1998) ruled as follows:
When a claimant is willing to continue working but is advised by a doctor not to work because of a temporary or sthort-term self-limited medical condition properly documented by the treating physician, the claimant did not voluntarily leave work by following the doctor's advice. If an employer refuses to allow the employee to return as soon as medically possible, the employee is entitled to unemployment compensation.
FACTS: As she neared the end of her pregnancy, claimant submitted a request for a medical leave. The request was denied under the collective bargaining agreement. It was the employer's policy to refuse leaves to employees who had not been employed a year. Shortly thereafter, the claimant gave birth and consequently failed to report to work. When released by her physician, she sought to return to work at the hospital, but was refused. She did not seek unemployment benefits for the period that she was medically unable to work. Rather, she only sought to return to work following her pregnancy.
DECISION: The claimant is not disqualified for voluntary leaving.
RATIONALE: "We continue to hold that whether a person is entitled to unemployment benefits is a two-part inquiry. Under the first prong, we must determine whether plaintiff voluntarily left her position. If we find that she left her position involuntarily, the enquiry ends and she is entitled to unemployment compensation...However, if the court finds that plaintiff left her position voluntarily, we must advance to prong two to determine whether her leaving was 'without good cause attributable to the employer.'" The claimant was advised by her doctor not to work beyond a certain date. Fault should not be ascribed to the claimant simply because a medical condition rendered her temporarily unable to work. Because she received medical advice not to work, she did not voluntarily leave, and thus is entitled to unemployment benefits for the period she was medically able to work, but her employer refused to allow her to return.
You can judge for yourself whether your circumstances fit the above Supreme Court decision. Good luck!
I hope you can give me some good advice. I was offered a new position earning $46,000 a year. However, after the initial training I was only earning 50% of what I was promised. I susbsquently had to leave that position and return home. I filed for unemployment. However, I'm not quite sure if that qualifies under a "good cause" for leaving my job. I received a notice with a request for information relative to possible ineligibility or disqualification. What's your opinion?
It's hard to say based on what you've told me. The answer might depend on what your contract or employment agreement said, in writing, how long you worked at the job, the circumstances of your leaving from your previous job and perhaps other factors. From what you said, it sounds to me as if you had good cause attributable to the employer for resigning. However, the burden of proof will be on you to establish good cause attributable to your employer. In my experience, voluntary leaving cases are the hardest to win. It helps if the employer doesn't protest or object to the Agency when it is notified of your application for unemployment.
Mr. Deeds, I could really use your help! I am staying with my sister since I could not afford to live on my own anymore, and also enrolled in college classes. The only problem is she lives in Ohio. My first question is can you be disqualified for attending classes out of state? My other question is that I was summonned for jury duty. If I give them a letter from school stating that I am in class out of state, can I be disqualified from receiving unemployment that way? My permanent address remains in Michigan.
dukemom, I doubt very seriously that the court that summoned you for jury duty would send information that you furnish to the Unemployment Agency. As far as your college classes are concerned, I don't think it matters whether they are in Michigan or Ohio so long as you can honestly certify that you are unemployed, available and seeking work. Cases like yours are judged on the facts of each case. As long as you are able, if you can find a job, work the job in along with your class schedule or drop your classes in order to accept an offer of a suitable job you should be okay. The Unemployment Agency should be encouraging people who are unemployed to study and improve their education and job skills.
I would appreciate your help. I have two questions. First- I filed over the phone for unemployment, and gave them a back to work date of Jan. 5th- which is what I was told by management when I got laid off before Christmas. Before I went into work on the 5th, they called and said don't come in until the 6th. On the 6th they said don't come back until Feb. 4th. My question is this- because I originally told them I have a back to work date, do I now have to refile or do anything different because my layoff was extended? Or, do I just continue calling Marvin and my original back to work date really doesn't matter.
My next question is, I got laid off on Mon. Dec. 13th. I called probably 50 times that week to file for unemployment, but could never get through- the message was try calling back when we are less busy. I tried the internet also, but it kept freezing up when I went to the next page. The following Monday I finally got through and was able to file. I was told at that time I was inelligible for the previous week because I didn't file in time. My question is- do I stand a chance of winning the dispute (which I plan on sending in)? My argument is that I followed the methods of filing from the State of Michigan website- by phone or by internet- and even tried many many times, but was unable to, due to circumstances I had no control of. (Side Point- Had I known that I had to file within that first week, I probably would of tried to call 500 times, but I didn't know).
I don't know the answer to your first question. I'm not sure what the correct procedure is. You can protect your rights by continuing to call Marvin and certifying that you are still unemployed. If they don't find you eligible, request a redetermination and appeal to an administrative law judge hearing if necessary.
On the second one I think you should be found eligible. The problem was not of your making. An appeal is worth a try. Good luck.
Well, it happened to me too, for the first time. The business where I worked for many years, closed. I filed for unemployment benefits and was approved. But when I filed for the first week, I was very sick, laying with awful flu and in the question “were you eligible for a work for this week" I put "no", I told the truth, as I was SO sick, I couldn't pick up my head. So I was denied benefits for this week. They say it’s the law. It’s very unfair, as I was not claiming welfare; I was claiming my own money, paid for me by my boss for many years to help me in situation like this. Even with my boss I had certain amount of paid sick days.
They say I may appeal. Can you advise how to do it so they’ll pay me for this week? Can I win at all? It’s about $250, but this money is crucial for me with all the bills coming.
According to the law you were not available for employment during the week. You can request a re-determination by following the instructions on the notice from the Unemployment Agency, but I doubt that they will change their mind. You have 30 days to appeal from the date of the determination. And the agency must RECEIVE the request for re-determination within 30 days. A postmark within 30 days is not good enough. It will be hard for you to retract what you told them about being ill during your first week of unemployment. About the best you can do is to tell them that you were at home, not in the hospital, not under the care of a physician and that although you were feeling under the weather you would have dragged yourself into work if you had received an offer. You might get lucky and get a sympathetic person doing the redetermination. You are supposed to get the benefit of the doubt under the unemployment compensation statute. Best of luck. Even if you don't get a favorable redetermination that doesn't mean that a week will be deducted from your eligibility for 26 weeks plus 33 weeks of federally funded E.U.C.-- extended unemployment compensation (in Michigan)-- if you still have not found a job. The week you missed will be added on to the end of your eligibility for benefits.
Mr. Deed, thank you for your encouragement and information. I have another question about my perspective. In our small town there’s little possibility for me to find the same type of job with the same payment. If I find a part-time or lower paid job, will I be getting any unemployment money to make up the total? And what total might it be, like to fill up to my former wage or to unemployment benefit total?
Section 27(a) (6) (c) (2) provides
"(2) Each individual shall have his or her weekly benefit rate reduced with respect to each week in which the individual earns or receives remuneration at the rate of 50 cents for each whole $1.00 of remuneration earned or received during that week."
I wanted to know if you had any incite on this situation...my husband applied for unemployment back on 12/7/08. We have been filing the bi-weekly claims as required, he has been determined financially eligible, but we have not yet gotten the final determination. We contacted the unemployment office in PA which is where we live and they said they are waiting for his employer to get back to them I guess with the paperwork. How long are we expected to wait for this? Is there a standard time limit in which the employer has to reply? Please offer any advice as it is SO VERY HARD to get through to the office, the phone is always busy.
I don't have any experience with unemployment compensation issues in Pennsylvania. However, I think you should be getting a determination soon based on the Unemployment Agency's analysis of the information your husband and his former employer furnished to the agency. They probably give the employer 15 or 30 days to respond. If the employer doesn't file an objection your husband should receive a benefits check soon. Because of the bad economic situation unemployment agencies all over the country are having trouble keeping up with the flood of new applications. The Christmas-New Years' holiday may also have been a source of part of the delay as well. Best of luck.
Ralph,
Hello! I was laid off from my job back in April 2008 and I am still collecting from unemployment.I applied for the extension in December and I received it. My extension runs out in 4 weeks and I have been looking for work every day and unfortunately, jobs in Michigan have been scarce. It has been very difficult finding a job with my credentials. I have applied for numerous jobs and I have not been successful. If I don't find a job before the 4 weeks I wont have any money to pay my bills so, is it possible to get another extension? or can I apply for an emergency extension?...Please help
Thank You
I hope you are on the right track...Thank you for the advice. It is greatly appreciated!
I have been recently layed off after 3 yrs and will be getting unemployment. I also will be retiring in March but have to get unemployment before my retirment kicks in, My question is can I collect unemployment and social security benefits at the same time. Can you enlighten me of any facts on this subject.
Receipt of Social Security benefits does not affect unemployment compensation.
You may not collect unemployment benefits charged against the account of an employer while you are receiving a pension from that employer.
While you are receiving a pension from an employer other than the employer whose account is being charged for your unemployment benefits you may collect unemployment benefits.
Of course whatever the circumstance you must certify for each week that you receive unemployment benefits that you are unemployed and available and seeking employment.
Hello Ralph,
I appreciate your timely response, Your forum is invaluable to important questions individuals have on these subjects. Noone but "you" has been able to answer my question, not even the Social Security offices. You are an asset to your endever.
Thank you
Skipper.
Thanks for the kind comment. I wish you well in these tough times.
I may have given you a slightly wrong or incomplete answer on the effect of pension benefits.
Here's what the Michigan Unemployment Insurance Agency says in it's "green book" for claimants:
Retirement/Pension Benefits
To receive unemployment benefits, workers who retire must be able to work, be available for work, and be looking for permanent full-time work. Workers who voluntarily retire may be disqualified. (See Item 1 Under "Disqualifications."
If your employer paid the entire cost of your retirement benefit, the full monthly amount of the retirement benefit will be prorated to a weekly amount and deducted from your weekly benefit amount. If you contributed something, but less than one-half of the cost of your retirement benefit, one-half of the prorated weekly retirement will be deducted from your weekly benefit amount. If you contributed one-half or more to the cost of your retirement benefit, no deduction will be made from your weekly unemployment benefit amount. Social Security benefits have no effect on your UI benefits.
DISQUALIFICATIONS
1. You may be disqualified if you quit your job without good cause atributable to your employer or if you voluntarily retire.
The employer that layed me off offers no retirement pension, I am scheduled for Social Security only. Is vacation pay from my last employer that layed me off considered earnings that i would have to claim on my UIA on the MARVIN system the first time that i call which is scheduled on the 21st of this month. I have already recieved my confirmation of UIA benefits.
Thank you
Skipper
Vacation pay paid in a lump sum at the time of layoff or subsequent to layoff in a lump sum payment must be reported as remuneration for the week in which it is received unless the employer has elected to "allocate" the vacation payment over a designated period of weeks AND has notified the laid off employee in writing of its intention of allocating the accrued vacation payment over a period of weeks in which case the payment is considered remuneration for each of the weeks to which it is allocated. For example, if you have 3 unused weeks of accrued vacation pay entitlement and the employer pays it to you in one lump sum check, you are obligated to report the payment as earnings only for the week in which you received it. However, if the employer notifies you that it is allocating the vacation payment over three weeks, the agency will consider it remuneration in each of the three weeks.
I am going to my third redetermination hearing now in front of a judge. What should I expect? What should I bring to plead my case? I have letters from former supervisors and pay stubs to show bonuses, etc..
Is this in person and in a court room, who will be allowed to be there?
Thanks Ralph.
In Michigan the judges allow 1 hour per case. Usually the hearings last less than an hour. The witnesses testify under oath and the hearings are tape recorded in case there is an appeal. If the issue is alleged misconduct the burden is on the employer to offer first-hand testimony (not hearsay) proving the alleged misconduct. You or your representative and/or the judge may cross-examine the employer witnesses. Then you will have the opportunity to testify in your own behalf, either in response to questions from your representative or from the judge who has the duty of insuring that claimants who are not represented by attorneys or advocates get a fair hearing. Good luck.
Thank you for your previous answer, On the spot as usual...
If i might bend your ear one more time, I will be calling MARVIN tomorrow morning for my fist time and reporting my vacation pay. It stated in the Green Book that I have to call UIA regarding the vacation pay after reporting it on MARVIN, I'm curious as to why that is necessary.
I assume that it's necessary to call UIA regarding vacation pay because the rules regarding receipt of vacation pay are somehwat complex and may depend in part on whether you received your entire vacation pay entitlement in a single check or you are receiving it a week at a time or whether your employer has elected to "allocate" your vacation pay week by week for the number of weeks to which you are entitled. Got that? :-)
I receieved my vacation pay in one lump sum by check, I'm assuming what your saying is that they need to clarify which method you are recieving the vacation pay as to how many weeks it will effect my UIA benefits.
That means you will not be eligible for unemployment compensation during that week, provided your employer did not "allocate" the amount over the number of weeks for which you received vacation pay.
Thanks Ralph on delivering such an informative resource.
You're welcome.
Ralph,
I was recently terminated for allegedly stealing company property. My employer claimed I stole something and had me arrested for felony theft. After bonding out of jail I sought legal counsel and went through the legal motions. At my preliminary hearing that charged was dropped. I was not convicted of any felony or any theft. I was deemed uneligible on the grounds that "there is sufficient documentation to establish theft." This seemed odd as I was not convicted nor did I steal anything. Is there any way I can obtain that documentation from UIA? I am planning to appeal and would like to know what "documentation" is being used against me so that I may effectively protest?
Also, after my hearing I applied with and was hired by a competitor of my former employer. They (my new employer) knew the situation and what actually happened(i didn't steal anything) and put me to work. I was ready to move on and get back to business. When my former employer found out where I was working and began calling other companies in the industry, both locally and all over the country, as far away from Michigan as Texas and Florida, to give them my name, my new employer and what he claims happened involving this alleged theft. Long story short, it created so many problems for my new employer and potential a loss of business, that they had to let me go. Is this something I can handle at my appeal or should I go to civil courts with it? I t just seems unjust that he can fire me, get me fired from another job, and be able to deny compensation.
I know it's a mess.......but I appreciate anything you think might help.
Thanks
I'm not sure what you mean by handle--your eligibility for unemployment benefits as a result of your termination by your second employer or filing suit for civil damages against your first employer.
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that you might have a basis for suing your former employer depending on who you could get to testify and any other evidence you could come up with to prove that he was spreading malicious, innacurate comments about you.
So far as your eligibility for benefits is concerned, from what you said it appears to me that it will be hard for your second employer to meet his burden of proving misconduct on your part. Misconduct has been defined in Michigan courts as "wanton or willful disregard of the interest of the employer." This is a high burden for employers to get over. Of course the unemployment compensation hearing will deal only with your elibibility for unemployment compensation, not with the issue of whether your employer had good cause for firing you. Michigan is an "at will" state where, in the absence of an individual employment contract or union contracrt, employers are not required to have good cause for firing an employee, except for discrimination.
Thanks for the tip....Is there anyway I can obtain the "sufficient documentation" used to "establish theft" by the UIA prior to an appeal hearing???
Thanks Again
You can go to the appeals office where your hearing is scheduled and ask to review the case file. Or if you have an advocate or attorney they can get a copy of the case file from the Unemployment Insurance Agency if there is sufficient time before the hearing.
I have been receiving unemployment after being terminated. I have just been notified that my unemployment has been extended for an additional 13 weeks. I am considering creating an LLC to do freelance consulting. As of yet I have no clients. Will forming this company disqualify me from the additional 13 weeks?
i
Not until you start making enough money to disqualify you or to reduce the amount of your benefit SO LONG AS YOU ARE STILL AVAILABLE AND SEEKING SUITABLE EMPLOYMENT. You need to be able to tell the agency if anyone asks that you would accept a suitable job if you were offered one. Beware of your former employer protesting your benefits if they become aware that you are trying to start a business. The case law is on your side. The act is not intended to discourage people who are drawing benfits from trying to start a business.
Hi Ralph,
i was terminated for failing a drug test...i know. as expected i was found ineligible. i'm considering appealing this on the basis of, after the test results, i talked with my employer and placed on probation. i was supposed to begin treatment in a rehabilitation program and give a clean test prior to returning to full-time field work(we worked on the road, out of town). a couple of weeks later, and before completion of my treatment, i was told i was going back on the road and my rehab would have to wait. at the jobsite, field tests were administered and low and behold, it was still dirty.
can i appeal
(sorry i got cut-off)
can i appeal on the grounds that proper dot procedures were not followed in my termination? and that if i showed any disregard for the employers interests, they were no less than his own disregard by sending me back out knowing that i had a problem? or should i just save some taxpayers money amnd time and chalk it up as a loss??
Thanks,
KN
Hi Ralph -
I responded to a redetermination notice about 6 weeks ago. My employer reported to the UIA that I quit my job voluntarily, when I actually took a maternity leave. This notice asked for a response from me.
I sent a fairly detailed response back, with a doctor's note AND a note from my employer indicating I did take maternity leave and when I returned the position was not available (the company outsources their payroll dept and it was this company that indicated I quit). I sent you a note on this when I got the notice (in a panic).
So I mailed my response over 5 weeks ago but have heard nothing. I cannot get through on the toll free line. Is no news good news in a situation like this? I've also received 3 unemployment checks since I responded. Seems crazy that they would continue to send checks to ask for them back later.
Anyway, I'm still a little nervous waiting for some type of response. What are your thoughts on what is going on.
Thanks so much!!!
There are several "problem resolution offices" around the state where you can talk face-to-face with a UIA representative. It might be worthwhile for you to visit the nearest office. They should be able to check and tell you the status of your case. Here's a link to their web page:
I guess better luck next time..?
Hi Ralph,
I quit a job in MI to take a job in Chicago, IL. I was then laid off from my job in Chicago after 3 months due to workforce reduction. I was told by the IL Unemployment Office that I was not eligible to file in IL and that I would need to file in MI. I did file in MI at the begining of Dec. I have set up the online account, the direct deposit account, posted my resume with Michigan Works and have been calling MARVIN at my scheduled times. I still have not heard whether or not I am approved from unemployment benefits. Can you shed any light on the likeliness I will be approved or how long cases like this take for a determination? Any information would be helpful, as I'm having a very hard time getting through to anyone in the offices.
I'm not sure off the top of my head what the correcct answere to your question is. I'll try to do some research and get back to you. You may want to call the help line on the Michigan UIA website. In the meantime KEEP CALLING MARVIN until your case and any appeals are resolved!
Kn, your only chance as far as I know would be that the lab that performed your test didn't follow the prescribed protocol. However, it doesn't cost you anything to appeal for an ALJ hearing. You might get lucky.
Hi Ralph,
I posted here about three months ago in regards to a SLIP leave my wife had taken and was subsequently denied unemployment. We filed for the redetermination about 3 months ago and we have heard nothing back. We have called the UIA several times during this time. The last two times we called we got the "I'm walking this in to my manager right now" schtick. Do they have a legal time limit within which they need to respond back? This has moved beyond unreasonable in my mind and if we need to bump this up the legal ladder we will do that.
Also, we are coming up on the 26 week time limit. Will they consider us for an extension even if we are currently considered eligible?
You should have received a redetermination long ago. You may want to go in person to the nearest "Problem Resolution Office" and speak in person to a UIA representative. Keep an accurate record of each contact, including the name of the representative with whome you spoke, you have with the Agency by phone or by mail. Contacts by letter are better than by phone because the letters become a part of the record of your case. In situations like yours I would document your case by registered return receipt mail. Also, to preserve your eligibility claim you must continue to call MARVIN to certify for each week for which you are claiming benefits. The 26 week limit has been extended in Michigan to, as I recall, 39 weeks. However, if your wife has continued to call MARVIN, if determined to be eligible, she should get a check for those weeks.
I was a 1099 paid contractor for most of the year. But i also was paid on a W-2 also for part of the year, will i be denied because of the 1099
You are obligated to report all earnings (1099 and W2) to MARVIN week by week. The Unemployment Agency will determine your eligibility or partial eligibility for each week based on the amounts of earnings you report to in accordance with Agency procedures. The calculations are based on your earnings each week, not the 1099 and W2 amounts for the entire year.
Hello Ralph,
My husband was employed with his former employer for almost 9 years, he relocated from Alabama to Ohio march of 2005, we married on Jan. 14, 2006, and our son and I moved to Ohio on Jan 16, 2006. And I became employed with the same company on Jan 31, 2006, and about 9 months later my husband was offered a promotion as operations manager. My husband worked hard to receive the promotion even after he received the promotion he stayed committed. He worked long days and nights, he also received many awards and saved the company contract with the client and also received vendor of the quarter at the call center numerous times. and did not receive the raise that he was promised but my husband continued to work and loved his job and the people there because this is all he has known for the last 9 years, and on June 9, 2008 my husband was terminated. And the reason that he was given for dismissal, was that he left work early on 2 occasions, one was 30 minutes and 1 hour early, on may 9th and 13th. This was a shock to us. My husband explained to his boss that on these days he did not take a lunch and also his boss checked his card swipes at the entrance. So then my he applied for unemployment and he was denied, and we were in a financial bind he was the bread winner and I was trying to maintain my job and work overtime, we have a son and bills, we could not avoid to pay rent and other expenses with just my income, my husband applied for jobs and was not successful, then we received a notice from the landlord, and so we had to relocate, we did not have family in Ohio, and no were to go, no money, so I had to resign from my job, and we moved back to Alabama, applied for unemployment and I have been denied, I have appealed it twice, still denied, I have my over the phone hearing on next week and I just wanted to know if you think that my resignation is good cause, DO I have a case?
Note: I have no experience in Ohio. In Michigan, I doubt that you would be found to be eligible. Absent compelling reasons attributable to your employer, employees who resign are not eligible for benefits. From what you said your husband was eligible for benefits. His actions did not amount to disqualifying misconduct, in my opinion. If not, his termination was actually a layoff disguised as a termination. I wonder if he was replaced by someone after he was terminated. And I wonder if there was not some other reason behind his termination.
I'm sorry I'm unable to provide you with a more encouraging opinion.
I live in Michigan and I am confused by the requalify by reworking. For instance, if you are found ineligible to receive benefits because you quit a job without good reason, then you can requalify by finding a new job, work there, and make atleast 12 times the WBA. So if you had a WBA of $362 and times that by 12 times you would get $4344. Is the rule saying that if you work somewhere and make that much money that you can now quit that job since you are now eligible again? Also is that $4344 before or after taxes. Thanks for your help!
One more quick question about the fact finding questionaire that they give out in Michigan. What exactly are those forms for? Does the person that reviews those forms actually read the information/answers that the unemployed person wrote down. Thanks again
Matt
When you quit a job without "good cause attributable to your employer" you are not eligible for benefits. Good cause can be unsafe working conditions, being instructed to do something illegal or dishonest, bounced paychecks or other serious problem which you have complained about but has not been corrected.
Yes, the Unemployment Insurance Agency claims examiners read the information you furnish on the questionnaires. They use the information you furnish to determine your eligibility. Also, they notify your employer of your application and send the employer a similar questionnaire. Your eligibility is based on the information you furnish and the information your employer furnishes. You and your employer have the right to contest an agency determination or redetermination by requesting a hearing before an administrative law judge.
After the hearing with the Admin Judge, is there another appeal if I should lose or is that it? Is there an appeal available for the employer when I win (as my advocate is highly suggesting)?
I just dont want to win and have the bulk of the back pay come to my bank and then have to repay it if I lose an appeal from my former employer.
Either you or your former employer, whoever loses before the administrative law judge, has the right to appeal to the Board of Review in Lansing (which must RECEIVE the appeal within 30 days). Beyond that a case may be appealed to the Circuit Court and Michigan Supreme Court and to the federal courts. As a practical matter, few cases are appealed beyond the Board of Review. And, in my experience, the Board of Review more often than not affirms the ALJ decisions. Good luck!
Thanks for all the help you have given us. I live in Michigan and voluntarily quit my job in order to take a full time and permanent position with another company. I worked there about 4 months and was laid off. I applied for the benefits and they sent me a fact finding questionaire to ask a few questions such as "did you quit your job to accept another full time job" and "was the job expected to be permanent" etc. I filled it out and sent it in. I was told in about 6-8 weeks they would make a decision. I have not head anything yet but I contacted the employer who laid me off and they said they have not received any info or questionaire to fill out from the unemployment agecny. Would the agency just go off of my answers and not compare them to the compnay that laid me off? I was trutful on the questionaire because I bascially met all the requirements pointed out in the Michigan unemployment handbook, so I have nothing to hide. Thanks for any advice you may have.
Rick,
It sounds to me like you are eligible. As you might imagine the UIA is very busy these days. It might be a good idea to go in person to one of the agency's "Problem Resolution Offices" and talk face-to-face with a representative. In the meantime continue to call MARVIN in accordance with agency procedures. Good luck!
Here's a list of the PROs: (There's a link to the PRO website above.)
Detroit (Temporary) - 3024 W. Grand Blvd., Suite L-500, Detroit, MI 48202
Gaylord - 400 W. Main St., Suite 102, Gaylord, MI 49735
Grand Rapids - 3391A Plainfield NE, Grand Rapids, MI 49525
Lansing - 5015 S. Cedar St., Lansing, MI 48910
Livonia - 33523 W. 8 Mile Rd., Livonia, MI 48152
Marquette - 2833 U.S. 41 West, Marquette, MI 49855
Saginaw - 614 Johnson St., Saginaw, MI 48607
I doubt that the rep would be able to give you a determination on the spot. He or she should be able to check on your case and perhaps jar it loose and even give you an opinion on your eligibility. It might be a good idea to keep a careful written record of all your contacts with the Unemployment Insurance Agency, noting date, time, who you spoke to, what they told you etc. My impression from talking to others that phone calls don't always achieve the desired results.
I was reading through this information to hopefully get some more insight on my situation. Hopefully you may be able to point my in the right direction. I was recently let go from a bank job that I worked at for about 2 and a half years Oct 8th, I filed that same day I was let go. I went through all the questions about previous employment and I had to fill in all the information. While I was working at the bank I was also working a small part time job as a Massage Therapist a couple hours a week. This job was only appointment based and I was working both at the same time. I decided to leave that place and my last day was Oct. 2nd. I quit the Massage job (employee) for another Massage job (independent contracted position) that I thought I was going to get more clients at and it was closer to the bank I was working at. While working at the place I left, I had only grossed a total of $130 for the whole time I was there. I had just gotten out of school and was able to get into that place to get started. I wanted to go to the other place since it was closer to the bank and I was under the impression I would be able to get more clients working there. I filed all this information for the unemployment from getting let go at the bank and I got the Determination back saying I was qualified benefits from the bank but I was disqualified for the benefits due to leaving the Massage job. I sent in a protest on the decision and they are still denying me because of that job and they are saying I didn't meet the "leaving to accept" requirements. Now I dont know what to do. I dont understand how that job had anything to do with getting let go from the bank when I quit before I was even let go from the bank. If you could give me any advise I would greatly appreciate it as I dont know what to do at this point.
Unusual case. I'm not sure of the answer. Seems to me tht the agency's application of the 29(5 leaving to accept provision is not consistent with the purpose of the act as stated in 421.2, Sec. 2 "Declaration of policy. The legislature...declares that the public policy of the state is as follows: Economic insecurity due to unemployment is a serious menace to the health, morals, and welfare of the people of this state. Involuntary unemployment is a subject of general interest and concern which requires action by the legislature to prevent its spread and to lighten its burden which so often falls with crushing force upon the unemployed worker and his family, to the detriment of the welfare of the people..."
In Godsol v. M.U.C.C., 302 Mich 652 (1942) the court ruled as follows: "The purpose of the unemployment compensation act is to releive the distress of economic insecurity due to unemployment. It was enacted in the interest of pub lic welfare to provide for assistance to the unemployed, and AS SUCH IS ENTITLED TO A LIBERAL INTERPRETATION."
In my opinion, the agency's interpretation in your case was anything but liberal and not consistent with the purpose of the unemployment statute.
It doesn't cost anything to appeal to an ALJ hearing. You have nothing to lose.
I wanted to inform you how backed up the UIA really is. I was asked if I was in good standing with the company that had laid me off after I originally quit my job to work for them full time. I told the UIA rep that I was and they told me to go and have the company put down a few statements on company letterhead such as "Was the job expected to be permanent" and "was the job full time." They want me to write my name, ss #, and a few other minor details and have me fax it in to them. I already filled out my fact finding form and sent that in about 8 weeks ago. I can't believe that they never mailed anything to my former company. I guess they could have mailed something out today and I would have to wait another month or so to find anything out so I give them credit for letting me go directly to the company and deal with it that way.
That's worse than I suspected. Thanks for getting back. Your comment may help others.
The Economic Recovery and Investment Act passed yesterday provides the following:
If you exhaust regular unemployment benefits by the end of the year, you'll qualify for a 33-week extension. Current rules required exhaustion by March 31.
Added $25 a week to unemployment benefits.
For nine months, the federal government will pay 65% of health insurance premium for unemployed people falling under the COBRA program, which allows some workers to keep the coverage offered by their previous employers.
13.6% increase in Food Stamp benefits:'
Source: Detroit Free Press Feb. 14, 2009
So, in Michigan that means the potential for 26 weeks (regular benefits) and 33 week extention for a total of 59 possible weeks of unemployment. That should hopefully help some people out who would have otherwise missed the extention deadline.
Yep. One problem is that the Michigan unemployment compensation statute and agency procedures are full of "tricks and traps" for the unwary which result in a significant number of people who should be eligible being declared ineligible.
I originally qualified for 26 weeks of unemployment at $362 per week here in Michigan. I have about 17 weeks left and I wondered what are the qualifications that have to be met in order to receive the extention of 33 extra weeks? Also how does the extention process work? I understand that something will come in the mail prior to the ending of normal benefits and one would have to reapply for the extention. I guess I am just wondering what they could possibly look at to see if one is eligible for the extention. Thanks
I don't know what the procedure is. I assume everyone is eligible for the extension. The Unemployment Agency is very busy. You could try calling them or visiting one of their Problem Resolution Offices. Or just keep certifiying by contacting MARVIN and wait til you get something in the mail. (As you may have gathered, I don't work for the Unemployment Agency. I'm an independent appeals advocate.)
I completely understand. From what I gathered, it seems like everone is eligilble as long as you follow the same procedures that regular unemployment requires. (Look for work, don't turn down work, etc.)
I think that's correct. But I haven't actually seen the rules or procedures yet. I'll try the UIA website linked above and see if there's anything on it yet. Here's a link to the latest info on the official UIA website.
Here's what the U.S. Department of Labor website says:
Mr. Deeds, I was laid off due to a plant closing in Sept. '07. The plant closing fell under NAFTA as our customer moved the job to Canada. I am currently going to school under TRA/TAA. The company told the employees that they had talked with UIA and that the vacation/severance pay we got will not be considered as earned wages and not to claim this money. The company gave everyone a memo concerning this and in it cited the UIA Manual of Precedents, Benefit Interpretation No. 20-641 (7-15-02) and UC Manual, Part V, Wage Record Handbook, 6576 (6) WR. In a nutshell this states that any renumeration that is a direct result of a plant closing.....will not be considered as earned wages for the purpose of calculating unemployment compensation, regardless of when the payments are made. The company specifically instructed us not to claim any of this money.
I have received a letter from UIA asking me to repay the money I received from them for the week in which I received this vacation/severance check. The UIA said the money is considered renumeration under Section 48 of the MES Act. I went to the PRO office and filed an appeal and now I'm scheduled for a hearing.
So, the question is, am I lost in a bureaucratic maze of conflicting rules or do I stand a chance of winning?
Here's a link to the UIA bulleting on severance pay
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/uia_SeverancePay
Here's a paragraph from the Agency's General Rules
R 421.302 Vacation pay.
Rule 302. When an employer is entitled to designate, pursuant to section 48 of the Michigan employment security act, vacation pay to a period of
layoff, forced vacation, or other separation, the employer shall either deliver to the affected employee and to the employee's bargaining
representative, if any, on or before the employee's last day of work, written notice of such designation stating that such designation may
render the employee ineligible for unemployment benefits during the designated period or shall post such notice conspicuously in easily
accessible places frequented by employees and deliver a copy thereof to the employee's bargaining representative, if any. However, as to an
individual laid off prior to the time of designation, posting of the notice shall not substitute for the requirement of delivery of the notice to such individual by mail.
I don't have a copy of the UIA Manual of Precedents. I'll see if I can find it On-line.
The general rule on severance pay is that it is disqualifying during the week it is received or for weeks to which it is "allocated" by the employer in accordance with UIA procedures.
I can't say for sure what your chances are before the ALJ. You have nothing to lose by appealing. Good luck. If I find any other information, I'll post it here.
This past September I left my job as an Auto sales Consultant in Michigan to travel to Arizona to donate a Liver to an old friend. I had gotten the time off approved with my employer. Ten days after surgery my employer called mt wife and was demanding payment for my health insurance premiums. As I was still in the hospital recovering from some complications it was an unpleasant call for my wife to field at the time. She called back and told the owner that she thought they didn't care about their employees very much and didn't think much of them herself.
Ten days later I received an e-mail from ownership stating they felt I should find a new employer. I was still recovering from this surgery and wasn't able to answer this in a timelt matter.
After three months I was awarded U.I.A. benfits, but the employer appealed and I was cut off-Owing $3000 in benefits received. I appealed and lost the hearing. The judge had the answer to the complaint post marked less than an hour after my hearing and it was in my mailbox the net morning.
What is the best way for myself to appeal this verdict?
The material in the website above and the material (Green Booklet) which you should have received from the UIA explains the appeal procedures. You have 30 days from the date on the judge's decision to appeal to the Board of Review in Lansing. The address and how to appeal is on the bottom of the judge's decision. The Board of Review must RECEIVE your appeal withing 30 days of the date the decision was mailed. All you have to do is write a letter stating that you disagree with the judge's decision and that you request that the Board of Review review the judge's decision. The Board of Review will render a decision based on the transcript of the hearing before the judge. I would have to read the judge's decision and the case file in order to predict the outcome. Sounds to me like you had good cause for not being able to make timely responses to your employer or to the agency. The Board of Review usually doesn't reverse the decisions of the administrative law judges, but sometimes they do.
Thank you for your comment. How could I get the decision to you-I'd love to discuss this more with you.
Thank you for your help.
I'll call you if you provide me your phone number by emailing me through Hubpages or by posting it in a comment box.
Was the "I will call you" comment for myself Mr Deeds?
Yes.
FEDS EXTEND UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITSStat-Fed Program Pays Up to 13 Additional WeeksSome unemployed workers in Michigan may be eligible for up to 13 additional weeks of unemployment benefits after they have exhausted their state unemployment insurance benefits and their two existing federal extensions."Michigan is now eligible to pay extended benefits through the federal-state Extended Benefits program," said Stephen Geskey, director of Michigan's Unemployment Insurance Agency (UIA).
"Citizens who establisheda claim for state unemployment benefits on or after February 3, 2008, may qualify for the new Extended Benefits program once they exhaust their federal Emergency Unemployment Compensation (EUC).
"To qualify for Extended Benefits (EB), Geskey said that eligible workers must:·
Be unemployed or underemployed·
Have an unemployment benefit year that ends on or after January 31,2009. A benefit year is a 52-week period starting from the week in which aworker applies for state unemployment benefits;·
Have exhausted all of their state and federal unemployment benefitsand federal extensions (EUC) and cannot establish a new claim; and·
Perform a work search and list the employers contacted each week. Asevidence of their work search, workers will have to supply the names of employers they have contacted over the prior two weeks, as well as the name
of the individual they contacted at each business, their method of contact,type of work they sought, and the results of their contact.
The EB program pays unemployed workers what they received in state unemployment benefits up to an additional 13 weeks. The weekly benefit amount is the same as what the individual received in state benefits.
The EB program starts when a state's insured unemployment rate (IUR) climbsabove 5.0 percent and is 20 percent higher than in the previous two years.Michigan's IUR surpassed 5.0 percent for the week of January 10 and was 42 percent higher than the average for the same period for the last two years.The week ending January 31 was the first week for which EB was payable.Once EB triggers on, it remains in effect for at least 13 weeks.
UIA mailed letters to approximately 250 unemployed workers in the state that it identified as being potentially eligible for EB at this time. Going forward, unemployed workers will automatically receive notices to file for EB when they are about to exhaust their final EUC benefit payments. The notice will tell them how to apply for EB.Extended Benefit costs are shared 50/50 by the federal government and the state for most employers. The state's share comes from the UI trust fundand is then charged on a prorated basis back to the employer(s).
Governmental employers are charged 100 percent for EB.In Michigan, the state unemployment insurance program provides up to 26 weeks of benefits, the first federal Emergency Unemployment Compensation(EUC) program provides up to 20 weeks of benefits, the second part of EUC grants up to 13 additional weeks and EB will now provide up to 13 more weeks of benefits to qualified unemployed workers.
Courtesy of state representative Gilda Jacobs's "Capitol Report"
I was laid off om 1-31-09 because the company I worked for closed. I applied for unemployment and received a monetary determination of 362.00 per week. I interviewed for another positon two weeks later and accepted it , even though it was for 58% less than what I had previously been making. I was told at the interview everyone was hired for 30 days as a temp. and then it would be decided who would be asked to remain on permanently after the 30 day period was up. During the temp weeks I will be working fulltime hours with overtime, earning as much as I would have been paid in unemployment. Should I continue to certify with Marvin during this "temp" period of time? I realize I will not receive unemployment payments during that time even if I do certify. I don't know that I will be able to get to a phone to call Marvin, because I will be too busy working. If I don't call Marvin what happens? If at the end of 30 days, I am not kept on as permanent, what do I do? If I call Marvin all along, do I report that I am working fulltime (when it is considered a temp position to start)? I assume I'd be OK, as I would just report no earnings after 30 days again. If I quit calling Marvin, then do I have to recertify if I find out I will not be kept on as permanent? I am new to all of this. I have worked my entire life and have never been through this before. Thank You for any help!
I confess. I'm not fure of the answer to your question. But to be on the safe side I would continue to call MARVIN to certify. In any event, you should be able to file again and become eligible if you are not hired at the end of your 30-day period.
hello, my husband had his hearing yesterday, and during it , the judge told the employer that it sounded like he was discharged for a personality conflict. And the employer said most definitely. With that being said, is that a reason to be denied UI. It was stated that my husband had tried to transfer to get away frm the person he had a conflict with but was denied, and shes the one that actually terminated, In 8 years he only had 1 write up which was in july, and he was fired in october. The judge had asked what did he do currently and what was the final straw that made you decide to discharge him, and they could not come up with anything. Does this sound like a slam dunk case, or could they come back with something, about the personality confict, and deny him, or the one write up from 3 months prior hurt him. They also had said that he had performed his job satisfactorily.
Sounds like a winner! (for your husband)
Thank you for your quick answer. I have been in limbo over this matter for days. But just to confim: Shall I answer yes, when Marvin asks if I'm working fulltime. Or shall I answer no, because it really isn't a full time job. It is merely a temporary position at this point. I almost wished I wouldn't have taken it all now because it's become so confusing and it's for a much lower wage ( which was explained at the time I applied). I've only worked 3 days so far. If I quit, I assume I would lose all my benefits. If for some reason I cannot get to a phone to continue to certify, because of the demanding hours of this job, could I just reopen an existing claim at a later date? I really appreciate your help, because so many of us going through this for the first time in their lives, just don't know what to do. The hotline number is constantly busy and one cannot get through to a live person to get help. I just want to be clear on everything. Thanks again!
You should call MARVIN and answer "yes" to the first question which is "Are you back to work full time." Then enter your 6 digit back-to-work date. And on question #7 report your earnings.
I am having the same dilema with a temporary position I just started. I have found temporary work for 6 weeks with fulltime hours. After 6 weeks I will be let go due to lack of work when the position ends. All the while I am working should I continue to call Marvin and report my earnings? Or once I tell Marvin I am back to work fulltime (even though temporarily) will I no longer receive benefits at all? Or should I just quit calling Marvin and after I am laid-off from the temp position, just reopen a claim at that point? What is the difference between reopening a claim and activating a new claim? Perhaps what I would be doing is opening a new claim? There may be a slim chance this job could turn into permanent partime work at best. I am very confused and can't get through to the hotline number. You are so informed and helpful with these matters. Any thorough information is greatly appreciated.
I'm not positive of the answers to your questions. You may want to contact the agency here'
http://www.michigan.gov/uia/0,1607,7-118--79590--,
In my opinion you can't go wrong by continuing to call MARVIN and report your earnings. If your earnings are low you may be eligible for a partial benefit. I am not sure exactly what the procedures on this are and I don't have time right now to research the issue. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
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We met with an Administrative Law Judge with the unemployment office concerning our appeal of a family owned business law which limits our, my wife and me, unemployment benefits to seven weeks. Our appeal was an attempt to show proof we had contributed to the unemployment fund for almost twenty-seven years and had never drawn once on that fund. Under duress our bank requested we sell our business and close the doors on November, 2008. The bank forgave much of our loans and we sold at a huge loss and left with zero profit. The company that purchased our business agreed to hire us and after one week of employment they let both of us go. At ages of 61 and 62 we are unable to find even a part time job. Our benefits will end in two weeks under the limitations set forth by the UIA and our appeal was denied. I clearly understand why the law was adopted as family members could abuse the system under normal day to day business. This case is clearly different and something appears unjust. The Law Judge today recommended we contact you for your assistance as he agreed with us. Could you please comment?
Wow! I'm surprised that the judge would send you to me if he couldn't help you. I would be curious which judge said that. You have the right to appeal to the Board of Review in Lansing, if you get the appeal to them within 30 days. (A postmark won't do it.) It doesn't cost anything to appeal. However, I wouldn't count on getting the judge's decision reversed. His ruling sounds correct to me off the top of my head without researching the issue or reading your file. I could discuss the case with you if you sent me a phone number via HubPages. You have my sympathy, but no good ideas occur to me.
What happens when one is unsure of the exact amount of earnings that will be received in a given week when calling Marvin? I generally know I work close to 30 partime hrs at 9.15 per hr. and can come close, but perhaps not exact, because I don't see the actual pay check until 1 week later. Marvin asks for dollars and cents amounts for specific weeks. THere is always one week I'm not sure of until I see the actual check. Is it oK to come relatively close on the amount? I have called that toll free number for days and cannot get through. The system is ridiculous. The red tape and problems of getting through to get an answer is unbelievable. Someone has to do something to help us get answers. You're one of the few who care. Thanks for any help.
You could try going to one of the Problem Resolution Centers and talk to a human being, face-to-face. I can't imagine that being off a bit on an estimate of your earnings would cause a big problem. However, my understanding is that the Unemployment Insurance Agency has computer access to your earnings. So, your estimates had better be pretty close. I've never gone through this process so I'm not absolutely sure what the right answer is. As you probably know the agency is very busy these days.
My Michigan application for unemployment benefits is a royal mess and I am unsure how to proceed. Even trying to give you a short synopsis is a challenge, but I'll try.
I quit my job for what I believe is good reason. They cut my full time hours to part time then demanded the same level of performance. At the same time I quit, I received an application for extended benefits from my last employer. I filled out the form listing my most recent employer and last date worked of 7-25-08. 7-31-08 I filed by telephone for benefits from the most recent employer, and told the representative about the EUC form. I began receiving extended benefits, and made numerous calls to the help line to be certain the correct information was being processed. From late October 2008 until late January, 2009, the UIA phone lines were so jammed it was impossible to get through on any line, except MARVIN. I am 100 miles from the nearest Problem Resolution Office.
I never received a Determination on my 7-31-08 application. In early November I received two different but similar "Fact Finding Forms" that I filled out and returned. Both forms had different information regarding benefit year and claim filing dates, none of which were correct, or even close.
A few days later I received two different monetary Determinations if otherwise qualified regarding my last employer, each with different dates, none of which were correct.
In late January, 2009 I received two separate "Notice of (Re)Determination" forms and two forms for Notice of Restitution Due. The 13 weeks of payments I received that ended in October, 2008 were apportioned in different amounts by the UIA between my last employer and the extended benefits from my previous employer. None of the forms had any of the correct dates and they differed from each other.
One of the (Re)Determination form said I was disqualified for benefits from my last employer based on a statement made by the employer. I never received a Determination on my 7/31/08 application. or a Protest or Notice of Appeal filed by my last employer, or an opportunity to challenge the employers statement.
A Determintion and a Redetermination have different appeal processes. But what is a (Re)Determination when there has been no Determination? I have been working on filing a "Protest" and request for Redetermination, but maybe I should be working on an Appeal of Redetermination.
The Michigan Employment Security Act provides for determinations to be made promptly. The Act does not define the word "prompt," but I don't think it means 6 months! It also requires certain filings to be made by the employer within specific time periods. None of those things occurred here. The Agency is also supposed to make available to the public a copy of the Act, and copies of its Rules of administration. Neither is on the website. The Act I can find online in public laws, but nowhere can I find a publication of the Rules. There is a booklet "Employment Benefits in Michigan," but it does not include UIA Rules.
Sorry this is so long.
You might try going to a Problem Resolution Office and talking face-to-face with a UIA representative. Here's a link to this service. You might be able to get a copy of the UIA rules there or get to look at a copy. Michigan Works might also be helpful. http://www.michigan.gov/uia/0,1607,7-118--78925--, The next step after you receive a re-determination is to ask for a hearing before an Administrative Law Judge. Be sure to file your appeals within the time limits and in accordance with agency procedures. Also, I recommend that you make a record of all contacts with the agency including the date, time, the name of the individual with whom you spoke and what you were told. The agency has huge backlogs and is taking longer than usual to process the applications and making more mistakes than usual.
Hi Ralph -
Do you know how back-to-back claims work? I was on UI in MI when I was hired into a short term contract position. The position lasted 4 months, over 2 quarters. The salary meets the requirements for a UI claim. However, once the position was complete, and nothing else was made available to me, I applied for UI again. They reactivated my old claim. I had 21 weeks of benefits remaining.
This claim is about to run out. Now there is the 20 extention. However, would I be entitled to file a new claim? I've read the pamphlet sent to me but it is not clear. I don't know if I should file for an extention or file a new claim.
Would you know? Thanks so much.
The information on this link should answer your question
https://cwam.unemployment.state.mi.us/euc/WebConte
Information on extension of unemployment benefits http://www.michigan.gov/documents/uia/Extended_Ben On November 21, 2008, the President signed into law another extension of unemployment benefits. It provides that unemployed workers already on the original extension, Emergency Unemployment Compensation (EUC), or who have exhausted EUC, may receive: Up to another 7 weeks of federally-funded EUC benefits, for a total of 20 weeks maximum (increased from a total of 13 weeks maximum). Up to an additional 13 weeks of federally-funded EUC benefits in states such as Michigan with unemployment rates above 6%. For those currently receiving regular state unemployment benefits: Up to 20 weeks of federally-funded EUC benefits after regular benefits are exhausted. Then up to an additional13 weeks of federally-funded EUC benefits, when they exhaust those benefits and cannot establish a new regular state claim. The Unemployment Insurance Agency (UIA) will notify by mail all unemployed workers who have already exhausted their extensions or are about to exhaust their extensions, with instructions on what they need to do. These workers can expect letters by the week of December 12, 2008. Moving forward, the Agency will automatically notify unemployed workers by mail how to apply for the extension as they exhaust their regular benefits. Extended Benefits Q & A
I can thankfully say I'm fortunate enough that I have not had to experience the unemployment world. However if I should ever it's nice to know there is such a system out there for all of us who encounter hard times.
Yes. It's a lifesaver for a lot of people. And it helps promote recovery from economic recessions. Thanks for your comment.
After the 3rd appeal the Judge finally saw things like I did and reversed the previous decision, my old compnay didnt prove I was let go becuase of bad intentions. They have 30 days to appeal.
How long till I get my back pay? and does the new unemployment figure (395/week)affect all my back pay or just whats happened the last month.
Ralph-Thank You for your kindness to us out in Michigan dealing with this hardship, your website and knowledge is unsurpassed and highly recommended.
Thank you so much, from me and my family and probably the credit card companies, they can get paid finally.
It usually doesn't take very long. The judge sends his decision to the UIA and they send out the checks. Of course they are very busy right now and everything is taking longer. My guess is that you should get a check within a couple of weeks. Remember to keep certifying by calling MARVIN. Thanks for getting back on your case and for your compliment. Good luck!
Ralph, I recently took a "Voluntary" buyout from Chrysler. While I understand it was my decision to accept the buyout offer, it was clearly stated by Chrysler management that if not enough employees accepted the buyout, a layoff would result. They also issued a WARN act letter to all employees about possible layoffs. In addition the company petitioned the federal govt for Trade Adjustment Assistance citing "lack of work" and was approved. I now qualify for this TAA eligibility.
The state of michigan denied my unemployment claim citing that I voluntarily quit my job without good cause citing that continuing work was available.
How can in one program(TAA) they site lack of work to obtain benefits for employees and threaten employees with layoffs unless they take the buyouts, and now say that work is available?
Also, the state of michigan also stated we cannot be eligible for benefits until 6/12/2010? How would they come up with this date? The buyout information never stated a period of time that we would not receive unemployment?
Your case is in a gray area. If I were you I would appeal the Agency's decision to an Administrative Law Judge hearing. Get an advocate and take all your documentation of the conditions of your buyout to the hearing. Your argument that people laid off from the facility were ruled eligible for TAA strikes me as a good one. It may be a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Here's the phone number of a good advocate in SE Michigan--Steve at 586-212-4769.
what burden of proof does an employer have to provide for a misconduct or dishonesty contest. do they have to have some sort of physical documents to support their claim suchas writeups, is it illegal for the judge to render a decision if it is all based off of hearsay.
As you observed, the burden of proof is on the employer in cases involving allegations of misconduct. The type of proof required varies depending on the employer's claim. At a minimum the employer is expected to provide direct, first-hand, non-hearsay testimony about the alleged misconduct. The employer witness(s) is subject to cross-examination by the claimant's representative and to objections against any hearsay testimony. After the employer's presentation, the claimant has to opportunity to testify and present evidence and testimony from witness(s). The judge will base his decision on whether he finds the employer or the claimant's testimony more credible and on whether the alleged incident was serious enough to amount to misconduct. If he believes the employer's testimony/evidence that dishonesty occurred the claimant will be found ineligible.
Am I eligible for back payment of my UI benefeits? I have started to receive thru marvin that my first week of UI was in the mail today for 380, is the back pay going to be mailed out the same time or is there some special procedure to getting that in my hands?
Thanks Ralph!
It's hard for me to say without reading the judge's decision. I think you should receive one check for whatever else the agency owes you according to the judge's decision. You won't be eligible for any weeks for which you didn't certify by calling MARVIN.
Will getting married affect my unemployment claim? Also I moved about 10 minutes away from where I previously lived. Will moving affect my claim?
Getting married will not affect your claim. You should inform the UIA of your change of address. I believe there is a form for doing that in the "green book."
Thank you Ralph! With this whole unemployment thing being such a pain the neck and with the helplines being swamped it's so nice that you would take time to answer these questions for everyone! Thank you!
From today's NY Times--"Jobless Angry at Possibility of No Benefits."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/27/us/27govs.html?_
I currently am employed in Detroit but will be moving up north in 30 days. I need to "quit" my job to move but I have a newborn that I must take care of till I can place her in daycare. Can I collect unemployment from the State of MI b/c of "child care needs"? Do I need to tell my HR department these details so they don't deny my claim?
The agency is quite likely to rule that you are not eligible for benefits even if your employer does not protest your claim. The basic rule is if you quit without good cause attributable to your employer you don't qualify for benefits, even for extenuating personal reasons such as yours. In Leeseberg v Smith-Jamieson Nursing, Inc. the couirt ruled that a claimant who was denied a leave of absence request to care at home for her injured husband was denied benefits for voluntary leaving. The court reasoned "Plaintiff chose to face termination because she wanted to care for her injured husband. While plaintiff's choice was prompted by compelling personal reasons, a good personal reason does not equate with good cause under the statute."
Sorry I'm unable to provide a favorable answer!
I appreciate your speedy reply! I'll at least give it a shot, can't hurt to try! :)
I hope that you can help me with this question. I worked for a company for over 10 years and was fired in OCT 08. I applied for unemployment and received benefits until February 09 when i went to certify there was no amount or date for check given. I called and was told that i was disqualified during a redetermination and that i should have recieved a letter in dec of 08. I never received this letter! i moved to south Carolina in mid December and sent in the change of address form. I assume that whatever letter they sent got lost somewhere in this process or it took them awhile to process it. They are sending me another letter but im concerned that i will still not be able to appeal this since it was in December and it is now march 3rd! Do i still have an opportunity to appeal? I was terminated for what they called misconduct. Another employee that was fired at the same time admitted stealing and paid restitution to them and passed his redetermination! I never stole anything! i was fired for stupid reasons because i left the safe cracked while making change for the drawers from our petty cash which EVERYONE DOES! its a time delay safe. This whole thing is completely unfair! Thanks for any advice you can give.
Yes, you can appeal, requesting a hearing before an administrative law judge. (You can arrange for a telephone hearing.) In your appeal of the redetermination you should explain that you did not receive the the redetermination letter in December 2008. In cases of alleged misconduct the burden of proof is on the employer. The judge will weigh the employer's direct first-hand testimony against your testimony on the reasons for your dismissal. Good luck.
Thanks you Ralph for your advice! As others have stated you are providing and invaluable service here and can"t thank you enough for what you are doing! I do have one last question, when i file the appeal can i use the advocate program that Michigan offers since the claim is from Michigan and I have moved to south Carolina? Thanks again!
i have been drawing benefits for 8 mths, i just had a hearing today, i guess the company appealed, but it was over wheather i was fired for misconduct or quit with good cause. I was never told i was fired, nor did i quit, i went on maternity leave, and when i returned the compnay i worked for did not have a spot for me to work, there schedule was full. so i would go in several times a weeka and call asking if they had any call offs ect. i was told no and that when something was avialable they would call me. back when i filed for ui i had my mangaer write me a letter saying that i had been coming in requesting work, and that he did not have the hours. i kept calling him for about 4 mths, where i finally kinda gave up, after being told over and over no hours yet. had hearing today, i submitted the letter. would this be considered being fired, or quitting, and i was originally approved for qutting for good cause they stated i was continuting my employment on an as needed basis. I am now worried, that i am going to be denied, and have to pay back what i have colledcted. the hearing was via phone, and was very informal, the judge accidentally hung up on me mid way, and i had to call to get back on the call, when i chimed in, i heard the employer talking to the judge, and then when it was announced i was on he shut up. he told her during the hearing i was an excellant worker, but they have had work available. he was the owner of the compnay. and asked me if i had called and he asked several peoples names, but they are managers of other stores that he owns, that i have never worked at. i had only worked at the one store. and have been there for years, until i went on maternity leave.
So being i never told anyone i quit, and let it be known, that i made sure they had my contact information, and that i was in there all the time looking to be put to work how can she make a ruling, what burden of proof did the employer have.
was he to prove that there was work avialable? or will she just listen to him saying there has always been work, I even had that statment frmo my manager saying he didnt have the hrs. To me i think if there was work, then i would be working. But the owner was very rude on the call, he even started bringin up the fact that i was going to school to make a career change, i worked in a resturant, and WAS going to school, but when i found out i didnt have a place to work, i had to quit, couldnt afford it. Is 4 mths suffienct enough to be requesting work from them, i chalked it up like they didnt want me, cause i did everything to try and put me on the schedule.
Another issue that came up was because my husband was a district for the company. I guess he was trying to bring up that he should have made sure they put me on. But work is work, my husband is not responsible for my employment, i am on my own, grnated he did tell them as soon as somehting came open to put me on, but i think maybe because he was their distirct, it intimidated them to no want me working for them.
i just dont know how this is going to go. And i really cant afford to pay anything back if its reversed. The owner did make a statemnt that he never called me for work. but he was trying to make it a point that i didnt call the other stores he owned, but i had never worked at them before.
Richard, to FILE an appeal all you need to do is follow the instructions on the back of the agency's redetermination. One sentence will do it--"I disagree with this redetermination and hereby request a hearing before an administrative law judge" or words to that effect. After filing your appeal you should receive a "Notice of Hearing" stating the date, time and place for the ALJ hearing and the issues on which he will rule. Also, you should receive a list of advocates' names and phone numbers and a description of Advocacy Program procedures. It will be to your advantage to sign up an advocate. He or she can help you arrange for a telephone hearing. Good luck!+
Raye, it sounds to me like you have a good case. The law does not require you to keep calling your former employer. It does require that you be "available and seeking employment."
Ralph, my husband has been drawing unemployment and is on his last 2 weeks of the EUC. A couple a weeks ago, on one of his checks was written that an EB application would be mailed out seperatly. He still has not received one, should he be concerned? We have not been able to get thru to anyone to get any info. I also want to tell you what a great service this hub page is and it is wonderful that you share your time and knowledge with everyone. I have been reading this page faithfully for about 6mos. You give people much needed info during very trying times. THANK YOU and KEEP IT UP!!
I don't have any particular knowledge of what's going on with the Extended Benefit applications. However, if it doesn't come soon it might be a good idea to go to the nearest Problem Resolution Offices or Michigan Works! offices and talk to someone face-to-face. Thanks for the comment. Good luck!
Ralph - I am trying to help a friend and would appreciate your insights. She was suspended with full pay in June 2008, for what her Employer asserted was misconduct. My friend's union, however, filed an unfair labor practice charge with the National Labor Relations Board, and the NLRB issued a formal complaint alleging that the suspension was, in fact, in retaliation for my friend's union activity, and therefore illegal. A trial before the NLRB was scheduled. My friend continued to be paid during the suspension, until late October 2008, when her Employer fired her for the same incident that underlay the June suspension. The NLRB alleged the discharge, too, as illegal, and added it to the pending trial. Once fired in October 2008, my friend was no longer receiving any pay. The NLRB case is now settling, and under the settlement agreement: (a) my friend will receive backpay for the period from the October discharge to March 1, 2009; (b) she waives her right to reinstatement (legally different from a quit); and (c) the suspension and discharge must be expunged from the Employer's records. FIRST QUESTION - My friend would like to apply for UI for the period beginning March 1, 2009. How should she characterize the nature of her separation? It wasn't a voluntary quit. It wasn't a layoff for lack of work. It was a discharge, but certainly (from her perspective) not for cause, and what's more, the very "discharge" record is to be expunged. What box does she check on the UI form? SECOND QUESTION (and I hope you're still awake) - Back in March 2008, months before the June suspension, my friend's full-time hours were severely cut and she filed for UI underemployment. Then, as noted above, she was suspended in June. Bizarrely, the Employer restored her full-time hours to her when it paid her during her disciplinary suspension. (Go figure.) My friend dutifully reported all this to MARVIN. MUIA later issued, on the same day, two apparently conflicting determinations. One ruled her ineligible due to misconduct, and the other ruled her ineligible because her suspension was fully paid. My friend was late in filing for a redetermination, so that's where the matter stood. She is clearly not entitled to UI for the period of her paid suspension from June to October 2008, nor is she entitled to UI for the period covered by her backpay award (October 2008 - March 1, 2009). However, it would seem that she is entitled to UI for the period beginning March 1, 2009. Will her legitimate effort to file now for the period beginning March 1, 2009, be clouded by this earlier complicated pre-history? In particular, is she going to have to face questions about disqualifying misconduct again? If so, how can she best navigate through it, especially in view of the fact that the disciplines in question are to be expunged? THIRD QUESTION (and if you're still reading, you have clearly now entered sainthood) - Does the money my friend was paid during her suspension qualify for any earnings rework requirement that may be imposed due to the earlier "misconduct" determination?
Bless you, sir, and thank you.
Linda
Linda, Your analysis looks good to me. In my opinion your friend should without delay file for benefits. She should tell indicate on the application that she was discharged but was found by the NLRB not to have committed misconduct and paid back pay for the time she was off until her case was settled. She should add a footnote explaining briefly that her dismissal was over-ruled by the NLRB and expunged from her record. Now, it's important to note that the UIA is not necessarily bound by NLRB unfair labor practice rulings. After your friend files the UIA will send a questionnaire to the employer asking about the termination. The employer should provide a truthful explanation and indicate that the dismissal was expunged and should not be considered misconduct. However, if the employer tells the UIA that your friend was discharged and explains the circumstances of the dismissal, the UIA conceivably might try to make an independent judgment on whether the alleged action by your friend constituted misconduce under the unemployment statute. [This is unlikely and would be a mistake in my opinion.]
In view of the fact that your friend's case is not a routine case, she or he might be well advised to go to a "Problem Resolution Office" and talk face-to-face with a human being.
Several court decisions have ruled that back pay awards by the NLRB, by arbitrators and by the EEOC are considered remuneration under the unemployment compensation statute. Therefore, the back pay should, in my opinion, be counted toward any earnings rework requirement in the agency's previous determination or re-determination, but I'm not positive about that. That's another reason to go to a PRO and hope to get somebody who knows the answer. Here's a link to information on PRO's.
Good luck!
I was denied because it stated the claimant couldn’t establish a benefit year (refer to the reference code) 1, 12:
1:claim denied due to insufficient base period wages.
12: benefits for this benefit year have been redetermined.
I am unemployed due to lack of work. Total wages were 3450.00 and then it states benefit year wages used to calculate benefits 1150.00
Question is should I file the appeal, or will it be wasteful time on my part??? Thank in advance for attention.
The process used by the UIA for determining how much you must earn in order to qualify for benefits is quite complicated. It is explained on page six of the "green booklet" entitled "Unemployment Benefits in Michigan." The explanation covers 4 methods to qualify for benefits.
The Agency's denial of your benefits is probably correct. However, appealing doesn't cost anything. An appeal would bring about a review of the Agency's redetermination in your case. Sorry I'm not able to provide you with a more definite answer.
Mr. Deeds,
I live in KY. I had my unemployment appeal hearing and was denied benefits. I am getting ready to submit my information to re-appeal the referee's decision.
Overview of my claim: Laid off in August 2008 and began drawing unemployment benefits. Went to work in November 2008 at a new quick serve restaurant that opened, just to get back to work and help bring home some money.
After working at the restaurant for a few days, I experienced intense back and hip pain from a previous injury, not work related. Informed 3 managers of my problem. After working for one week, had to see my doctor. Doctor advised that I would not be able to continue this type of work without accommodation, i.e., stool to sit on. I was basically working as a cashier, running food, stocking supplies.
Informed employer I would have to take additional time off for physical therapy. I offered a doctor's statement, but they said it would not be necessary. They would have to go ahead and replace me immediately.
Appeal referee misconstrued a lot of information I provided; did not take into consideration the "evidence of material" I submitted prior to my appeal hearing. I have obtained a copy of the recorded hearing. Referee is obviously one-sided.
My question is that when I appeal the second time, how should I approach with my information. I have never been through this process and will not hire an attorney unless I absolutely have to. I don't have the money, being unemployed. The State owes me about $4700 in back pay. Please help! Thank you!
I live in Michigan and my unemployment comp experience is there. If you were in Michigan I would advise you to write a clear, concise appeal letter referencing any portions of the transcript with which you disagree (e.g. page 3, line 4-6) and explaining why you disagree and attach any relevant documents to the appeal letter. Finally, most lawyers know little about unemployment compensation law. If you do decide to get a lawyer, make sure you get one that specializes in unemployment benefit law. Otherwise, in my opinion you would be throwing your money away. There aren't many unemployment compensation lawyers because there isn't enough money involved to make it worth their while. In Michigan, some lawyers will write a UC appeal on a contingency basis, i.e., they charge a percentage fee only if you win your case.
I have a side business and am possibly loosing my 9-5 job. Is it still possible for me to get unemployment compensation?
That will depend on how much you earn from your side business. In order to qualify for unemployment benefits you would be required to report to the Agency every other week and report any earnings and certify that you are unemployed, available for work and seeking work.
Thanks for your quick reply!!!
The money I make from the business pretty much just goes back into the business. I don't collect an hourly wage from it.
Would it be better to gift my side business to a family member?
I'm not in a position to answer that question. Your side business could put a little cloud over your eligibility for UC. One other suggestion, if you are laid off and apply for UC read all the material carefully and comply with all the procedures and regulations. There are many traps which disqualify unwary or careless applicants for benefits. The Agency administers the regulations very strictly. Read the GREEN BOOK carefully and follow the instructions.
I have worked for a construction company for the last year, jus recently the banks will not loan out money to contractors so our work is on hold.i have got paid cash the whole year but when tax season comes i will file a 1099 and pay back everything i owe. Am I eligable to receive unemployment?
It sounds to me like who ever you worked for may not have paid unemployment compensation taxes on your earnings. This is likely to create a problem with respect to your eligibility. It could also create a problem for your employer if he did not pay Social Security and unemployment compensation taxes.
If your employer did not report earnings and pay taxes on them the Unemployment Agency will not have a record of your earnings on which to determine your eligibility.
My boyfriend (Mark)'s claim for benefits was just denied for misconduct. His employer used an automatic points system which did not take reasons for absences or tardiness into consideration; it also included forgetting to punch in or out as a violation.
His violations were for a few absences due to illness (abscessed tooth, he did get doctor's statements in order to remove the points, but they were not all removed) and injury (he had to leave the day after an on the job injury because of the pain); and also due to forgetting to punch in and out (which happened because he would arrive early to set up his area and see what was going on for the day, and would stay late when extra help was needed and he is forgetful). On the day he received his sixth point and automatic termination, our car battery had died. He tried to call, but they have no one in the office until later in the morning. When he had found a ride and was able to get someone on the phone (an hour and a half after work had started), he was told not to bother coming in because the tardiness caused another point and he was fired. His manager also told him to call back in the future and he would try to rehire him because he was considered a good, hard-working employee and he wished he didn't have to let Mark go.
Does this sound like grounds for misconduct? I wrote his request for a redetermination today, explaining this in detail. We can get doctors' statements to back this up, as well as statements from employees about Mark coming in early and staying late. Do you think we have a good chance if the redetermination is denied and we have to appeal? Would statements from coworkers be accepted in an appeal?
Automatic point systems for attendance are not a good basis for establishing misconduct because they don't take into account valid reasons for absence. Absence, per se, is not misconduct. Illness, on-the-job injuries should not be counted against your husband. Car trouble should not either unless it happens several times in which case it would become suspect. Repeated absences without good reasons are required to establish misconduct. One caution, however, if there are a lot of absences some court decisions shift the burden of proof from the employer to the claimant. That is, the claimant must prove that he was not guilty of misconduct by virtue of excessive absences and/or tardinesses without valid excuses.
Yes, your husband should have a good chance in an appeal before an administrative law judge. Statements from co-workers would be considered hearsay and not admitted as evidence in support of your husband's case at the hearing. For them to count the co-worker(s) would have to testify in person at the hearing. Doctors' statements are an exception to the hearsay exclusion. They should be accepted as exhibits supporting your husband's case. Good luck!
Note: My comments are based on my experience in Michigan. They may or may not apply in other states. The laws are similar from state to state, but there are significant differences. Also, even in Michigan attendance point systems are in a bit of a "gray area." All point systems are not the same. Some of them do take into account the reasons for absence and do not award points when there is a reasonable excuse. The worst ones are "automatic" point systems. My personal opinion is that point systems are a poor way to handle attendance issues. Each time an employee is absent or late, he should be given the opportunity to explain why he was late or absent, and only absences for which there is no reasonable excuse should be counted against him. And good cause for dismissal exists only after repeated, frequent absences without reasonable cause and repeated warnings for them. The courts have not clearly ruled point systems out as a basis for establishing misconduct. Their validity may depend on the specifics of the system and whether it is applied reasonably in the opinion of the judge.
Thank you, I appreciate your advice. Hopefully if we have to appeal, we can bring the witnesses in to testify.
Thanks again!
I was fired for theft and ordered restitution. After paying my restitution, am I still eligible for benefits? I was not prosecuted.
On page 11 of the green book "Unemployment Benefits in Michigan" you will find the following:
"If you are disqualified for any of these reasons (one of which is theft), you will be required to serve a 26-week requalification period before you can receive benefits. You will also lose up to 13 weeks of benefits and you will not be entitled to any benefits based on work for the employer involved in that disqualification."
Hi, I looked through all of the positngs, but saw nothing like my situation. My bank account was cleaned out today ($40) due to a judgement by the court saying I owed a particular amount to a credit card company. This is true, but they wanted $100 a month and I could only afford $20 (and I really couldn't even afford that). I have been paying the $20, but they told me it was not "an agreed upon amount". Well, they refuse to close the account, so I owe more than that in late charges alone per month. My question is can my unemployment check be garnished by law? And if so, isn't there some kind of percentage only allowed? Because I never though of applying for underemployment last year when I made almost half of what I made every year for the last 10 years, the amount I'm approved for is very minimal (about $100 per week) since last year was so poor. Are you able to help with this question? As it is now, I have a check for $30 that has not cleared yet, so there was really only about $10 in the account, Of course now I'm waiting for that check to post and be charged $35 for an overdraft...Thanks so much, Laurette
Unemployment compensation is not subject to garnishment in Michigan. To avoid complications it might be a good idea to deposit your unemployment compensation benefits in another bank account. Here's a link to the Michigan Legal Aid site on garnishments
http://www.legalaidwestmich.org/resource.2005-07-0
Good luck.
Yes, I'm in the process of appealing my umemployment insurance claim. However, I'm outside of the guidelines with respect to the 30-day rule to file an appeal. I received my original determination letter 1/27/09 and appealed effectively March 12, 2009. My question is, are there any exceptions available to me if I did file my appeal after the 30-day rule? Please advise
The agency and judges are pretty strict about the 30-day time limit for appeals. Here's what the rule says:
R 421.270 Good cause for reconsideration and reopening.
Rule (270).(1) In determining if good cause exists under sections 32a, 33, and 34 of the act, after the 30-day protest or appeal period has expired, for reconsideration of any prior determination or redetermination or for reopining and review, good cause shall include, but not limited to, any of the following situations:
9a) if an interested party has newly discovered material facts which , through no fault of the party, were not available to the party at the time of the determination, redetermination, order or decision. However a request for reconsideration of a determination or redeterminatin or for reopening a decision or order made after the expiration of the statutory 30-day period solely for the purpose of evading or avoiding such statutory period is not for good cause.
(b) If the agency has additional or corrected information.
(c) If an administrative clerical error is dscovered in conection with a determination, redetermination, order, or decision.
(d) If an interested party has a legitimate inability to act sooner. [i.e., serious illness, death in the family or similar reasons]
(e) If an interested party fails to receive a reasonable and timely notice, order, or decision.
(f) If an interested party is prevented from acting sooner due to an untimely delivery of a protest, appeal or agency document by a business or governmental agancy entrusted with delivery of mail.
(g) If an interested party has been misled by incorrect informaton from the agency, the office of appeals, or the board of review.
(2) If, before the start of an ititial hearing before the office of appeals, the agency receives new, additional, or corrected information or discovers an administrative clerical error in the claim, the matter may be returned to the agency for reconsideration and redetermination.
Help! My employer (a car dealership) discharged me on 12/31/2008 due to lack of work, I collected 6 weeks of benefits, then received a letter stating that I was disqualified because I voluntarily quit. What? I have a separation letter stating that I was discharged due to lack of work. I was let go with several other employees. I provided this proof to UIA and was they still decided against me. The employer stated to them that I voluntarily quit because of a reduction in hours. I worked reduced hours for nearly a month then they let me go. It's not really a he said she said case because my separation letter states I was discharged due to lack of work even though there is a section for quit. They provided copies of my time card to UIA as proof that I worked reduced hours in the past and found that evidence enough to disqualify me inspite of my separation letter. I have filed in a timely fasion for a redetermination, but what are my chances. Its a shady car dealer what if they get lacky employees to testify against me. I was a closed door meeting between myself and two supervisors when I was let go and they are the ones who signed the separation letter stating I was being discharged due to lack of work. I really would appreciate any advice or opinion on my claim, as I have been without an income of any sort for 4 weeks now. I need something that could put my mind at ease.
Thanks so much,
Chrisine
Dearborn Heights, MI
It sounds to me as if you should be okay. If the redetermination goes against you, appeal and take your case to an administrative law judge hearning. And get an advocate to represent you at the hearing. I think you should be okay. If you think of it, please let us know how your situation develops. TNX.
Thanks, and I will let you know.
Hi Ralph, I was just recently laid off from a 16 year job. I have a few questions that I hope you can answer. 1st- I have been given a 7 month severence package paid over the 7 months (not a lump sum). Do I apply for unemployment when my severence runs out, or do I apply now? My thought is I apply after my severence runs out. 2nd-I am thinking about getting a part time job just to get some extra money while I am on severence, will that disqualify me from unemployment after my 7month severence runs out? and 3rd-I was thinking about going back to school with the "No worker left behind" act-doesn't that disqualify people from unemployment??
Sorry I just have been having these questions running through my head and I am sure others probably have also had the same questions.
Thanks for all you knowledge and sharing it!
1. Depending on the amounts your severance payments will disqualify you. You should apply for benefits just before the payments stop.
2. You can earn as much as you can while you are receiving severance payments without affecting your eligibility for unemployment benefits.
3. There are procedures for applying for advance approval of school courses from the Unemployment Insurance Agency which allows you to go to school without losing your eligibility. You can probably find out about the procedures on the UIA website or by calling the agency. If I get a chance I'll look it up and post something here.
If you are currently receiving unemployment, working less than full time and reporting earnings to Marvin, but are thinking of looking for a higher paying position and then quitting your present job, how will that affect your unemployment benefit if you find another part time position?
I wasn't able to find a case or regulation covering this situation, but I don't believe quitting your current part time job to accept another higher-paying part time job would affect your eligibility. It would probably affect the amount of your benefit. Section 29(5) provides that an individual who leaves work to accept permanent full-time work with another employer and performs services for that employer is not disqualified.
I didn't find a comparable provision covering part-time work, but it would make sense, in my opinion, to apply the same treatment. Bottom line, I'm unable to provide a definitive answer to your question.
Thanks so much Ralph!! I will keep checking back to see if the other info is posted!!
i was fired from my job because i preformed a plumbing job when i wasnt employed by my company. i worked part of 2007 for the company and quite due to lack of work. never applied for unemployement. then the company rehired me in 2008. in 2008 my boss found out i did plumbing work during 2007 when i didnt work for him, but he fired me for it. now after collecting unemployment for 6 months they tell me im disqualified for deliberate disregard of the employer. how is that when i didnt work for the company at the time i did the job? also what do i need to do to not have to pay back over $7,00.00 in benefits when i dont have a job nor any money.
You shouldn't have a problem if you can show that you weren't working for your former employer at the time you did the job and that you weren't covered by a "no compete" policy or agreement. It would be helpful if the person you did the job for was not a customer of your former employer. The burden is on your former employer to prove misconduct, i.e., wanton or willful disregard of your employher's interest.
Hi Mr. Deeds, I wrote you last week regarding the car dealership claiming that I voluntarily quit. Who has the burden of proof in this case. They state that I quit, I was let go due to lack of work. Does the UIA or Administrative Law judge have ways of knowing how many claims have been filed against this employer in close proximity to my claim, as it was somewhat of a blood bath, or is it up to me to investigate these things, if so is this public record, can I asked that this be looked at? It seems to me that they may be pulling this on most or all of us. What points should I stress, is my separation letter proof enough? By the time I get my redetermination, even if its in my favor I will have lost my car and perhaps home. Employees are penalized for fraud, are there any consequences or penalties for employer fraud?
Thanks again
Christine
Hi Christine, The employer has the burden of proving that you quit either by a resignation signed by you or by testifying more convincingly than you before the judge. Car dealers are just about the worst employers in Michigan who try to beat their former employees out of eligibility for unemployment compensation. Most of the judges know this and scrutinize car dealer cases pretty carefully. The UIA has records of how many cases have been filed against a particular employer, but I don't think they would be available to you or to the judge for that matter. If the agency delays in issuing your redetermination Keep calling them and call your state representative in Lansing. If you could get him or her to make a phone call or write a letter it might speed things up.
I've never heard of an employer penalized for fraud involving a UC claim. To be fair fraud cases against claimants are not common either. However, plenty of employers are penalized for scams to avoid paying their UC taxes.
Good luck with your case. If you think of it, please let us know how your case turns out and whether my advice was any good. It would be interesting to know what your employer could say in an ALJ hearing about the separation letter indicating you were laid off.
My father has become dependant due to serious illness and I dont believe I qualify for an FMLA. If I needed to quit my job to take care of him would I qualify???? Please help
The rule is that you are not eligible if you quit unless you quit for good cause ATTRIBUTABLE TO YOUR EMPLOYER. You may well have good reason to quit, but the reason is not attributable to your employer. There are exceptions, but I don't believe that any of them apply in your case.
Ralph,
My husband got laid off from his full time employer and was told he can claim unelpmloyment. So he did and has to call MARVIN soon. I was wondering if he needs to claim his Army National Guard pay (he gets a small paycheck once a month from the reserves)?
Thank you.
Yes, he does if it is pay he earns by attending monthly meetings.
I collect unemployment. I am attending school now full time.
I apologize for the mistake posting. What chances are there the MI UIA will find out about someone collecting unemployment and going to school at the same time? If when that person calls marvin they do not answer the question correctly that they are attending school. Can the UIA find out? Even if the school is in another state?
Thanks
Joe, if you are in a UIA approved training program you can be eligible for benefits. You may want to investigate this by calling 1-866-500-9917. If you are enrolled in a UIA-approved program you are not required to report by calling MARVIN. Otherwise the fact that you are a full-time student may affect your eligibility. Some court cases have ruled in favor of claimants who are full time students so long as they are available and seeking work and are willing and able to adjust their course schedule in order to accept an offer of employment. If the UIA finds out that your reports to MARVIN are not accurate you may be subject to disqualification and required to repay any benefits. And you are found to have committed fraud you may be required to repay 3x the any benefits you have received. (I am out of state for a family reunion and don't have access to my UC cases and other information. However, I believe the above information is correct.)
Hi Mr. Deeds, I am currently in the middle of a re-determination. I was recently let go from my part-time job. I started the job while 7 months pregnant in August 2008. I explained to them that I was to take only 8 weeks maternity leave. My last day before I went on maternity leave was September 1, 2008. During my maternity leave I stayed in-touch with my employer to ensure a position upon my return. I needed to go back to work in late November (end of maternity leave) but my boss was too busy to talk with me about my returning to work. In late November I ran into her in a parking lot and she appologized for not keeping in-touch and that things have been crazy at work. she also said that she was flying to see her sister that night and that she would be gone on vacation for the next few weeks. I told her to call me as soon as she returned for I needed to start working. She got back from vacation on November 30th and called me on December 1st. She wanted to come to my home later in the week to discuss my schedule. She came to my home at the end of that week and she told me she wanted me to start working the next week. I was glad to finally start working for I was unable to retutn before that date because she was away on vacation and she needed to be there with me to continue training me. I told her that I would be collecting partial benefits from unemployment as I needed more than 24 hours a week (maximum amount of hours job would allow). She was fine with that and I continued to collect partial benefits while looking for a second job. I opened up my claim with unemployment on December 7th although I did not return to work until the next week. I thought everything was going well at work although my boss displayed a hostile temper during the end. I was trying my hardest to make everything work out with my job for I needed it with a new family. Only 4 weks after returning to work she fired me and gave me no reason other than I was not the right person for the company. I uptated my termination with unemployment and explained that I was fired without a reason. My previous employer fought the claim stating many reasons that were untrue. I was found eligible due lack of evidence and me not showing misconduct at work. However, I was then disqualified because I opened my claim before I started back to work. Unemployment assumed I was not physically able or available for work due to my maternity leave. I have an overpayment of over 1,000.00 I was actually available for work but was not able to return because my boss was away on vacation. I am fighting this because I need to pay my bills and I have not been able to find another job. I know my previous employer will say anything to disqualify me from unemployment for they do not want to pay higher unemployment insurance. Do I stand a chance in having this disqualification reversed and becoming eligible again? Any thoughts you have will help...thank you in advance.
Sounds to me that you should be eligible although it's hard to tell without seeing the case record. If you don't get a favorable redetermination request a hearing before an administrative law judge. They frequently reverse UIA redeterminations.
Hi Mr. Deeds, Last year i qiut my job because when i was hired for shipping and receiving afternoons i had to be trained on mornings which i understood was going to be for 2 weeks, but what happen is that i end up being on mornings for 4 weeks and then working a split shift which put alot of pressure on me a week later back to mornings then 2 weeks later afternoons, after all of that they now placed me on security, walking the premises controling front gate functions ect, all in thye same of doing what i was hired for, never really took my 30min lunch because i had to watch the gate or ID guests that were coming to vist for various reasons,on top of all that they added a gym to the place and now had mae me pretty much a gym attendant, when i mention a raise that was really out of the question and the reason i quit was that i left a few times which should have been my 30min lunch time to buy a car, i got written up because I couldn't be found to let people in the gym. What should i do? i know they are going to do everything in their power not to give me benefits and it's very hard to find a job and I'm a veteren I'm running out of options.
Your case is in a gray area. The law is not on your side. It presumes that a reasonable person will find another job before quitting the one he has unless there is "good cause attributable to the employer" and unless the claimant complained and gave the employer a chance to correct the problem. I don't blame you for quitting after being screwed around the way you describe. However, I think you will have a hard time winning your case. The burden is on you to convince the judge that your employer treated you in a way that would cause a reasonable person to quit. Changing a job or shift assignment is not ordinarily considered good cause. Not allowing you to take your lunch hour might be. The UC law does not treat veterans any differently from anyone else.
My father in law was laid off about 2 months ago. 4 Weeks later they took away his medical benefits. They just called him to return to work but said he'll only get paid 70% of his wages and he will not get his insurance back. This seems like a poly to get him to quit or decline to return thus giving the employer the right to refuse enmployment benefits. Shouldn't they have to give him what he had in terms of benefits before he was originally laid off? They're also not sure how long they'll need him. Thank you for your time.
A reduction in pay of 30% and cancellation of health care insurance would be good cause for quitting attributable to the employer. Your father-in-law should be eligible for benefits if he resigns rather than returns to work assuming there isn't anything else involved in his situaton. [I hesitate to make a definite prediction about eligibility without having all the facts from the claimant and the employer.]
I received my Michigan elementary teacher certification in 2003. I have been trying for a full-time job ever since, first in the Warren area and then in the Kalamazoo area over the last 2-1/2 years. I have done quite a bit of substituting in Warren and Kalamazoo but have not yet been able to land a full-time position. I have been working part-time at the YMCA over the last two years. Does having a part-time job make me ineligible for unemplyment insurance?
Having a part-time job doesn't necessarily make you ineligible. This would depend on how much you earn. If you receive benefits you are obligated to report your earnings every other week for each week. Your earnings could make you ineligible or reduce the amount of your benefit.
I have just completed a two-week training program to become a nurse assistant. This is a high-demand field and I'll be better able to find a decent job. A representative for unemployment benefits says that me stating that I have began school/training during the period that I am certifying for, will disqualify me from receiving a benefit check. What should I do?
Angela, I recommend that if your benefits are denied you should request a redetermination on the basis that you are available and seeking work and that you will adjust your training schedule in the event you receive an offer of a job.
Hi Ralph,
Some time ago, I posted on this site in which you then made the following response.
Kevin says:5 months ago
Hi Ralph,
I like to ask for your advice. I was fired for tardiness in August and was denied unemployment. The determination wrote "You were fired for repeated lateness after being warned in writing. You knew your job was in jeopardy. You state you needed to visit your father whose hospitalized while on way to work. You felt this was more important. There is no evidence to show you made employer aware of situation. to perhaps work this out. in order to protect your job. This will be part of hearing."
In my defense, the written warning was in January. I never received any type of writtern or verbal warning during the few months prior to my termination. I felt that I should not be held at fault for tardiness caused by circumstances beyond my control, as my father was very sick in the hospital and I do have medical records. Although it may have been in the best interest of my employer to fire me, I believe my actions do not rise to the level of misconduct. Ralph, can you give me any advice on this? My hearing will be next week.
Ralph Deeds says:5 months ago
I agree that you should be eligible for Unemployment Compensation. Whether or not the judge will agree is hard to say. It will be helpful to bring information concerning your father's illness. Be prepared for the judge asking you why you were not able to visity your father after you completed your work day. The result may depend on how many times you were late and how late you were. It's also relevant whether your supervisor said anything to you on the occasions when you were late. If he didn't you would have an argument that your employer condoned your tardinesses, that is led you to believe that it was okay for you to be late when you had to visit your father in the hospital. It will be to your advantage to have an advocate represent you. And be sure and get to the hearing on time (preferably early) because being late for the hearing definitely would hurt your case. Good luck.
After the hearings, there were 2 (the judge decided to adjourn), I received the judges decision sustaining the initial determination of the unemployment office and ruled against me. I was crushed. It was such a long process hoping and waiting and nothing came out of it. With the little hope I had left, and I do mean little, I decided to appeal the judges decision to the appeal board. I wrote a statement explaining why I believe my actions do not constitute misconduct. I finally received their decision and guess what? They reversed the judges decision and ruled in my favor based on the concept of 'condonation' that you had mentioned! They did not even have to consider the reason why I was late to work. I couldn't believe it. I just wanted to let you know and to all of those people out there who are experiencing what I had to go through, to never give up if you believe that you were fired unjustly. My only problem now is, there were a stretch of time about 6-8 weeks when I did not claim my weekly benefits. We do it online in my state. I do not know the importance of claiming every week at that time. What will happen to those weeks I did not claim? Thanks!
Kevin, Thank you very much for the above comment. I'm very happy about the final result. You made my day! I hope you find a good job soon if you haven't already. Good luck and thanks again!
You will not be eligible for benefits for any week for which you didn't call MARVIN to certify that you were unemployed and seeking employment. You may be eligible for additional weeks up to the maximum going forward if you are still unemployed without a deduction for the weeks for which you didn't certify counting toward the maximum. I should have reminded you to keep calling MARVIN to certify every two weeks until your case was finally settled. That advice does appear above on my website, as I recall.
Thanks for the quick response Ralph. I have found a temporary job that lasts until the end of June. My benefit year ends in September. I am assuming I can still claim for benefits in July and August, given that I am unemployed during that time. But if I have not reached my maximum when my benefit year ends, does that mean the weeks that I did not certify will goto waste?
I'm not positive how that works. You would have nothing to lose by applying. If I have time I'll try to get you a better answer.
Dear Mr. Deeds,
I came across your hub on accident. It seems that you have a lot of knowledge in this area. I read other peoples comments and learned a lot more about unemployment than I would have on their web page.
I do have a few questions for you. I was disqualified from unemployment and sent in my response for a redetermination. I was fired w/o warning and w/o reason. My employer told unemployment that I was fired for misconduct and that I was unable to work the hours that she gave me. I have never shown misconduct in any work environment and I worked all of my scheduled shifts. It has been 3 months and my position has not been filled by another person. Also, the business only has 3 employees.
Does unemployment make a decision based upon he said she said or do they need actual written or documented evidence?
Do they sometimes make a decision based on the more convincing party with no evidence at all?
It has been over a month and still no reply from unemployment. Do re-determinations usually take this long?
Sorry for all of the questions. I do appreciate any advice you may have.
Sincerely, Sophia
Hi Ralph, I have been on unemployment since April of last year--I have been extended so far thru June of this year. My question is that when I called Marvin today it said that my benefit year has ended, am I suppose to recertify to get the remaining weeks? Thanks, Chelsea
Chelsea, I'm sorry I don't have an answer for you. I suggest you call the agency or go to one of the Problem Resolution Offices where you can speak face-to-face with a human. Here are the PRO locations:
PRO Locations:
Detroit (Temporary) - 3024 W. Grand Blvd., Suite L-500, Detroit, MI 48202
Gaylord - 400 W. Main St., Suite 102, Gaylord, MI 49735
Grand Rapids - 3391A Plainfield NE, Grand Rapids, MI 49525
Lansing - 5015 S. Cedar St., Lansing, MI 48910
Livonia - 33523 W. 8 Mile Rd., Livonia, MI 48152
Marquette - 2833 U.S. 41 West, Marquette, MI 49855
Saginaw - 614 Johnson St., Saginaw, MI 48607
If you need help and you are an unemployed worker or employer customer with questions, please call one of our toll-free hotlines:
Claim Inquiry Line for unemployed workers, 1-866-500-0017, 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. (temporary extended hours) Eastern time weekdays.Employer Customer Relations hotline, 1-800-638-3994, 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. weekdays
Sophia, The unemployment agency makes its determinations and redeterminations based on the statements and evidence sent them or given them over the phone by claimants and employers. They are very busy right now and they do the best they can. However, mistakes are not uncommon.
From what you said and the fact that you were not replaced by your employer it appears to me that your dismissal may have actually been a cost-reduction move (i.e., a layoff) by your employer disguised as misconduct to prevent you from qualifying for benefits. I encourage you to pursue your case with the agency and if your redetermination is unfavorable you should request an in person hearing before an administrative law judge. In the hearing the burden will be on the employer to prove disqualifying misconduct. The controlling court case defines misconduct as "wanton or willfull disregard of the employer's interest." Minor transgressions do not constitute misconduct unless they are repeated after warnings, e.g., repeated tardiness or absence without reasonable cause after warnings are condiered misconduct.
In the meantime, remember to keep calling MARVIN on schedule until your case is settled. You will not be eligible for any weeks for which you fail to call and certify. Good luck!
Mr. Deeds,
Thank you for your timely response and I appreciate your help.
Best regards, Sophia
Dear Ralph,I have worked for this company in Michigan for 2 And a half years.About 2 months they laid off 72 workers.And we work 2 weeks off a week,which Iget benefits my question is tis Recently we had a meeting and their offering Voluntary Leaves of Absense,Voluntary Vacation Leave up to 12 weeks,and last but not least Voluntary Resignation.Which I have been considering.If i decided to Voluntary Resign wouldn't disqualify me for benefits,even though they say they won't contest it to the UIA? They gave about 13 pages to sign for the resignation.In the meeting they also said they need to cut the workforce by another 98 Employees,I just don't want screw myself out of benefits. Plaes Help
Eligibility for unemployment benefits is decided by the Unemployment Insurance Agency. You should not rely on you employer's statements with regard to eligibility. The fact that your employer does not contest your eligibility does not mean that you will be eligible. "Voluntary" vacation or "voluntary" resignation would likely render you ineligible for unemployment benefits. Although your employer may say it wouldn't "contest" your eligibility, it is obligated to furnish information about your situation to the unemployment agency which will base its eligibility determination on that information and on the information you furnish on your application. In my opinion, without knowing all the facts, it is doubtful that you would be eligible for benefits.
Good Morning Mr. Deeds, I found your website last night after doing some extensive research. I'm so hoping that you can help me with a few questions that I have as I have gotten the run around over the phone with the UIA.
Last year I was working 2 jobs. One I had started in Feb at a Automotive Company, and worked there full time. The other one was a part time job that I worked at for like 1 day a week, but before the full time job was working there full time. I went to part time to take the full time job to recieve benefits and health insurance but continued to work at the part time job at night time. The end of November I quit the part time job as it was getting to be too much with both jobs. Then, the beggining of December I was laid off from my full time job because of lack of work. I received a few weeks severance and that was that. I filed for unemployment. They sent me a few fact finding sheets which I filled out and sent back. I then recieved my Monetary Determination form which said that I would be getting the $362 weekly amount for 26 weeks. Everything was fine and smooth or so I thought. My unemployment started the beginning of December. Well last Friday which was May 1st, received 3 letters in the mail. 2 of them were Notice of Restitution Due one is saying that I owe for repayment for over payments, and has the list of all payments that I received starting from Dec until the end of April. At the top says issues and section of Michigan Employment Security Act Involved also listed it has a credit to employer 20(a) and improper payments 62(a). Also, has listed that Claimant is disqualified from 11/29/08 until completetion of a re work of $4,344. Then it says that claimant must pay back $6,564. back under section 62(a)
The second letter has the same heading of Restitution Due, but on this letter is says that Misrepresentation, not intent. 62 (b) again the credit to employer and then improper payments. Basis for Determination it says based on determination issued on 4/29 it is found you were not entitiled to benefits from 11/30 through 4/18. Intentional misrepresentation is not found. Restitution is due under section 62. Below this it says claimant is not disqualified for benefits re: Misreprensentation, not intent. Then this time it says claimant must pay to the agency $125, which I gather is the amount that they added to benefits.
Finally the 3rd letter, This is headed a notice of Determination. Says See Repeater
It is found that you quit your job for good cause attributable to the employer. You are NOT disqualified for benefits under mes act sec 29 (1)(a). That is all the letter says.
So, I have called the hotline twice since Friday and have gotten the run around. Of course they say I can protest, but my questions are remaining un answered. One is yes I quit my job but that was because I was working full time at my other job and then got laid off! I'm so confused as to am I eligible? And do I have to pay the money back? And if so why?! As I was working full time. The lady at the agency said that I need to do the re work. Clearly I would be working but there are no jobs as well as a few weeks before I got laid off I found that I was pregnant (which does not pertain to the lay off). I'm now 7 months pregnant. No one will give me a job!
I'm so helplessly confused, and feel in order to understand all this mumbo jumbo I should have a Phd or something!! :)
My plan is to clearly protest this, and I just wonder if you can give me some sort of insight to all of this. I will continue to call Marvin and actually today is my day to call. Also, was thinking of going to the office that you suggested for some other people, to have human to human conversation.
Sorry this is so utterly long, just trying to get the details to you, I hope that you can help me a little bit.
Does any of this make sense? Was this a clerical error? I do not believe it is one on my part and feel that I have qualified for all the eligibility requirements.
Thank you so so much for your time. I would really appreciate any help or advice that you can offer.
Kelly
It sounds to me as if you are eligible, based on the third letter finding that you had good cause for quitting your part-time job. You should be able to ignore the first two letters. I don't know why you would need to protest that determination. To make sure you could go to the nearest Problem Resolution Office and speak face-to-face with an agency representative. You should take all the paper work you have received to date. And, very important--Keep Calling Marvin until your case is resolved. And if you do receive an adverse determination or redetermination be sure to protest within the 30-day time limit. Good luck. Here's a link to the Problem Resolution Office website--http://www.michigan.gov/uia/0,1607,7-118--78925--,
I am from massachussettes.this is very important to me and i am seekin advice. I was teminated for breach of confidense. My employers claims that I knew of another employee's intent to steal a laptop and failed to notify my supervisors. This lead them to terminate me based on that. I filed for unemployement and was disqualified based on that. I am appealing now. My argument is that whatever my employers claim is not entirely true. I was unaware of this employees intent, however i was working the day he comited the act of theft. I left early that day. The next day i learned that he was arrested for stealing. I was question three days later for theft. I was asked a series of questions about items going missing which i denied. I told them only of my knowledge that the employee was caught for trying to steal a laptop and I had my suspicions about it. They're claiming that i submitted a signed written statement which admits my knowledge of the whole event before it was going to happen. That is a lie. I asked for a copy of this written statement for a week and i never got it. Basically i want to know if its common to have the referee hear my side of he story and allow me to cross examine my employer with falsafied facts that were submitted which eventually led to my termination.
My experience is solely in Michigan. In Michigan the referees usually do a good job of bringing out both sides of the case. And in Michigan you would have the right to cross-examine employer witness(es). Hearsay evidence is not admissible. You should mention the fact that your request for a copy of your written statement was refused by your employer. Did you write the statement or was it written by your employer. Under Michigan law, based on the facts you have stated, I believe you would be eligible. The Michigan standard for misconduct is "wanton or wilful disregard of your employer's interest."
Dear Mr. Deeds:
What good fortune that I came upon your incredibly informative and interesting site!
If you’ll permit it, I have a three questions related to a case pending appeal before the MES Board of Review very soon.
The salient background information is that the Employer claimed that the Employee was terminated for misconduct and the Unemployment Agency Examiner concurred and benefits were denied.
Upon our appeal, the ALJ reversed the decision and deemed the Claimant eligible for benefits.
The Employer requested a re-hearing of the ALJ and was denied. He then appealed to the Board of Review. And that brings us to today and my questions.
I suspect that it is most prudent to request an oral hearing, rather than written, so that one’s case can best be presented. Do you agree?
I’ve done substantial research on-line, however, I can’t seem to find anything that details the specific process that will take place at the review. Will there be a situation similar to that before the ALJ wherein each party will be present, provide supporting documentation and witnesses, and have an opportunity for direct and cross-examination of witnesses? Or is it simply a situation whereby the Claimant and Employer are present to answer questions that Board members have as a result of reviewing the transcript of the ALJ hearing?
And finally, it’s my understanding that the Board may request evidence that was not presented at the ALJ hearing, however, will the Employer be able to present such evidence simply because he desires to do so? It’s a concern because, at the ALJ hearing, the Employer didn’t submit any supporting documentation as evidence, although he claimed to have ample amounts of it. He did submit it to the ALJ in the request for the re-hearing and, in denying the request, the Judge indicated that much of the information submitted with the re-hearing request could have been presented at the original hearing, but was not.
I sincerely appreciate your time, consideration, and wisdom in this matter, Mr. Deeds.
Thank you,
Bill Nelson
The Board of Review grants very few requests for oral argument. More than 95 percent of all cases are decided by the Board of Review based on the ALJ's decision, the typed transcript of the recording from the ALJ hearing, and any exhibits admitted at the ALJ hearing. Oral arguments are reserved mainly for unique issues or cases involving large numbers of employees. Therefore, I would be very surprised if the B.O.R. granted a request from the employer or from the claimant for an oral argument.
However, it can be helpful to file a request for an oral argument along with a statement supporting your case in support of the correctness of the ALJ's decision in your favor and contesting the employer's testimony or reasoning at the ALJ hearing. Making a request for an oral argument presents an opportunity to make a written argument with references to evidence in the transcript of the ALJ hearing. You should include the page and line number from the transcript and perhaps quote the passage you wish to call the Board of Review's attention to. Submitting a request for oral argument or written statement is not necessary. The Board usually does not reverse ALJ decisions. [However, some ALJs have a higher batting average with the Board of Review than others.]
My recollection is that the B.O.R. will not allow or consider additional evidence that was not presented at the ALJ hearing.
Good luck! If you think of it please let us know the outcome of the case.
As I suspected, you've been extremely helpful...!!
We'll do exactly as you suggest. And I'll certainly make a point to let you know how we fare.
Thank you so much for your time, Mr. Deeds, and for your incredibly speedy reply..!!
Sincerely,
Bill Nelson
I have my Hearing towmmorow and I am very nervous. I have never been to court or in a court room for that matter. I was terminated from my job back in November, Filed for Unemployment in January and was finnaly approved in March. The employer protested and I was given a notice stating that they provided no new information and that the decision was affirmed. About a week ago I recieved a notice of a hearing. Redetermination for Section 29 (1) (B). I was terminated for Tardeness , I didnt have a car for most of the time I worked there and relied on other people for rides and when I did have a car there was lots or problems, But i always called and let other employess know. I was also never discliped in any way about this issue. I was also fired for faliure to me expectations and they also said I lied on my application, I cannot think of anything I lied about. I do have an advocacy though. Will I know the judges decision towmmorow or will it come after?
If you are in Michigan you will not get the judge's decision at the hearing. Usually written decisions are mailed within a week. Sometimes you can guess the outcome from the judge's questions and reactions to the employer's and your testimony at the hearing. If you were not disciplined or warned about tardiness you have an argument that your tardiness was "condoned" by your employer. "Failure to meet expectations" is not misconduct. Good luck!
Hi Ralph, im this is dennis again. yes, I wrote the statement, and I did in fact call my employer and asked for a copy three days ago. i left a voicmail. And since then I have never recieved a reply. I also have an audio recording of an employee accounts that night could better case. He states that he seen the whole incident and i notice that i left early and he was the one who told managers what was going on. In this fasle written statement it stated that I am the reason why a laptop was stolen becuase seeing the employee with a laptop was a sign that i should have told someone. But i left early that day. But in the audio recording the employee says that they had eyes on the theif the entire night and yet a laptop disappeared. Can i submit this as evidence or will it be hearsay. I know that audio recordings are illegal in some states including mass but this could really help my case.
It would be better if you could get the other employee to come to the referee hearing and testify as a witness. However, he may be reluctant to do that for fear of retaliation by the employer. I'm not sure what the rule about tape recorded evidence is in Massachusetts . It probably wouldn't be admissible because the employer would not have an opportunity to cross-examine him. Your employer erred in refusing to give you a copy of the statemen you signed. That's worth mentioning at the referee hearing. The referee has a duty to see that you get a fair hearing.
I cant say for sure how it went. it seemed to go 50/50. I raised a lot of questions to my employer. He raised only one to me. One question I realized now that I failed to mention is "What was the employee arrested for? And what was he charged with?" I learned that the employee accused of stealing was charged with an open warrent and not for theft. But I did metion that to the referee. However he still allowed my employer to read outloud a written statement. I assured the employer that none of it was true and said that my employer refused to send me a copy after I asked him for it. The examiner asked my employer if this is true and my employer said yes it is. And when asked why, my employer said that he faxed it and he has a copy of the written statement and does not know why I haven't recieved one.The examiner asked if my employer could make a copy and email it, my employer said not at the moment but if you give me 10 to 15 min he would. The examiner said not to worry about it. It was funny because I spoke clearly and made no errors while on the other hand my employer retracted statements, was unsure of himself, and had no valid evidence but claims to have a written statement which is the basis of my termination. He still however could not prove his case without this written statement, can he? This is what bothers me. I would not want someone to allow false evidence into account if he cannot prove that such exists. But what ever the outcome, Im still glad I made my manager look like a fool with that question. Thank you for your Ralph. I wish audio recordings were admissable as evidence because it will prove my case a whole lot easier. I think I mad my employer nervous because I asked if I can use an audio recording with his permission and he said no. I also think the employee informed the employee that i have a recordings of him. I know its wrong and illegal in some states, however letting pple know that i have them recorded can scare them sensless. In fact i was questioned by the examiner's office of how I came about these recordings and I told them that my cellphone automically records conversation and I believed who ever I talked to mentioned that to the examiner. Because at one time or another he would ask me to so speak louder because he there was an echo. My sister picked up the other line once or twice, so when she hanged it up they would say now i can here you better. but wasnt recording at the time. this was a land line and i can only record my cellular calls.
Please let us know how the referee's decision turns out.
Hi Ralph: I had two jobs. One full time (4 yrs) that paid $36,000 last year & a part time (2 yrs) for 5 hours a week - I made $2000 last year. Fired from FT job and awarded benefits. They reduced my hours at PT job to 6 every two weeks at 2 hrs each time. It wasn't worth the gas to drive there, so I quit. They denied me under 29 (1) A, and I also lost redetermination. I will appeal to the ALJ. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
It appears to me that you should not have been found ineligible under 29(1)(a) because the reduction in your hours and earnings constituted good cause attributable to your employer for resigning. The cost of commuting for 2 hours work also is a factor in your favor which should be emphasized to the administrative law judge. You could offer testimony on the number of miles from your home to work and the cost of gasoline and wear and tear on your car. (The "standard mileage rate" allowed by the IRS for business use of a personal car was 58.5 cents per mile June-December last year. The current rate is 50 cents per mile.)
So, you need to make two points at the hearing: 1. The reduction in your hours and earnings and 2. The cost of driving to work for a 2-hour, part-time job. These reasons are sufficient to cause a reasonable person to quit. Get to the hearing on time! Get an advocate from the list provided by the unemployment agency. And keep calling MARVIN to certify until your case is settled.
If you think of it please let us know the results of your hearing.
Good luck!
I was terminated while on medical leave for a back injury (no comp although it was caused by my job). The employer is out of state-I had worked for them for 16yrs as a truck driver-told me I would be terminated when my short-term disability ran out. I was unable to go back to work at that time and am still not able to resume my previous employment-will never be able to drive a truck again. They refused to give me a letter of termination although I attempted to get one. Seven months after termination, I was unofficially 'released' by my doctors as I no longer had insurance coverage-couldnt afford COBRA any longer. Dr said I could probably work for short periods of time in a sitting position, like an office job. I filed for SSDI and unemployment. I then found out that under a supreme court ruling, if I was able to do any gainful work under ADA with reasonable accomodation, I was also eligible for unemployment. I filed in December after discussing this with them. In January, I was awarded SSDI and turned down for unemployment -the employer said I was terminated for 'poor attendance'.
I appealed the denial-barely in time as the paperwork never made the 50 mile trip by postal mail for three weeks. I faxed the entire medical record and statements of my current capabilities to the UI offices and followed it up with regular mail. Because it was never dealt with in the UI offices, I went to the Problem Resolution Center 50 miles away to solve the situation. I was given another denial-this time, the employer said I did not return to work after my medical leave-I was not released to work for seven months after termination! I also presented documents showing that the employer had no available job openings in Michigan and all listed anywhere else required diesel certification or a degree-I have neither. Meanwhile, I was awarded SSDI (I am 62)-I told both UI and Soc Security about the other claim.
I filed another appeal, again with documentation from my doctors and proof of my inability to work at the date of termination-or even for months afterward. I hand-carried the paperwork back to the Problem Resolution Center as I was concerned it would not be dated properly. I asked the UI employee to please make sure the appeal was stamped with the current date to make sure it was shown as being submitted in a timely manner. I was given no receipt.
After six week, I called the information line to inquire and was told the issue hadnt been decided yet. After eleven weeks, I again called and was told I had been denied as not having sufficient reason for truning the paperwork in LATE! It has been falsely dated a week after I hand-delivered it! I was also told that two letters had been sent to me-neither of which has ever arrived. I called my congressman's office and had them intercede on my behalf. First, their office insisted I could not get Unemployment if I was getting SSDI. I quoted the Supreme Court case to them and was told to file for a hearing with the administrative law judge. I did as requested and immediately (within three days) got a hearing date in Detroit. The hearing paperwork does NOT state anywhere that I was denied for failing to turn in paperwork on time-instead, it lists the same arguments that I voluntarily quit and that I am incapable of working. My problem is this: It never should have gotten to this point. If the paperwork had ever been properly dealt with, and I was denied for cause, I would understand it. Instead, no one wants to deal with the Supreme Court case that says that the disability guidelines for SSDI and Unemployment have different standards and that the disabled can draw unemployment. Incidentally, I have been working as a free-lance writer and sold articles-I can provide documentation for this-but what income I make nowhere near replaces the amount of my unemployment benefit.
I will be applying for an advocate to help me wade through this mess on Tuesday. My major concern at this point is, this appears to be to be an act of discrimination by the State under ADA as they have flatly refused to deal with that aspect of the case. Should I also be asking for advocacy assistance from some office of the ADA?
Any ideas on how to proceed with this would be most welcome.
Request a hearing before an ALG of the Agency's redetermination. Get an advocate to represent you at the hearing. I sounds to me like you are getting the run-around. Sometimes a inquiry from your state representative or senator can help put pressure on the agency. In the meantime keep calling MARVIN until all appeals are resolved. Good luck. If you think of it let us know how your ALJ hearning turns out.
Thanks, Mr Deeds!
I'll call to find an advocate in the morning. It finally struck me that both parties-the trucking company and the UIA-really dont want this can of worms opened because it will open the door for others if I win the appeal. In the case of the trucking company, these kinds of back injuries are the most common form of cumulative injury to long-term drivers. Loopholes in the Comp law preclude most drivers from getting Workers Comp for lumbar injuries, the carrier terminates them and they dont want to be in the position of paying unemployment on these claims (seen it happen before). I think the problem with UIA is they're simply overwhelmed and dont want to take the time to chase down the particulars in the Supreme Court ruling. I'll most certainly let you know what happens with the ALJ hearing. Thanks again!
My husband was recently terminated. The employer stated it was because he cost him $15,000 in damages due to an accident, but the employer made it seem like it was deliberate. BTW, isn't that what insurance is for? Is this a reason of denial for unemployment benefits in Michigan?
In Michigan damage alone is not considered misconduct. The employer must show negligence or intent.
I have just recently been issued a determination of eligibility after my employer appealed the process. They ruled against me in favor of the employer. The letter states that the employer who was charged for these benefits is entitled to a credit under Section 20(a) of the MES Act. It says no where on this letter that I have to pay it back, there are options of me paying the company but are not checked though, so can I assume that I do not have to pay back these benefits? I am having a hard time understanding this specific option that they have chosen for repayment of the benefits. If you could email me at bedellb@mfc-health.org , I would greatly appreciate this! Thank you.
I emailed you the following, but my email bounced--
If you are obligated to repay the benefits the Unemployment Agency will send you a bill. If you don't pay the bill they will take 20% of any unemployment benefits for which you may qualify in the future. And they will take all of any future Michigan income tax refunds for which you may be eligible. It may be that the Unemployment Agency was at fault for paying you the benefits in which case you should not be required to repay them. Was your case decided at a hearing before an Administrative Law Judge? If so, his decision should cover any repayment obligation. If you haven't appealed already to an ALJ hearing it might be worthwhile considering. The ALJs frequently reverse Unemployment Agency eligibility determinations. If your are going to appeal you should keep calling MARVIN until your case is finally resolved. Ralph Deeds
Hi Mr. Deeds,
I worked FULL time at "JOB A", last summer I took a part time job at "JOB B" (WHILE continuing to work FULL TIME for "JOB A").
I quit part time job "B" to focus on FULL TIME Job "A". 4 Months later I was LAID OFF from Job "A".
They have denied me benefits because "I voluntarily left my job without good cause attributable to the employer." BUT, the job I quit did not put me into unemployment. In fact, when I QUIT "job b", I REMAINED working FULL TIME at job A.
AT ALL TIMES I WORKED FULL TIME FOR JOB A. THERE WERE NO BREAKS OR ANYTHING. JOB "B" WAS SIMPLY FOR FUN, AND I QUIT.
Is this something you see common?
I found a case from 1995 when a circuit ruled in favor of someone in my position. It is in the State of Michigan's website. Should I bring this to the case? Or would the ALJ be offended that I am showing him how to make his decision?
Is my case a no-brainer, or should I worry about getting an advocate?
THANK YOU
No, your case is not a no brainer. You should get an advocate. I helped a client lose a case similar to yours not long ago. I would be interested in the citation for the 1995 case. If you can make a copy of the case, you or your advocate can cite the case and read brief pertinent parts into the record and then give the judge a copy of the case at the end of the hearing. Most judges are not offended by that.
Here is the URL for the case: http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/ham/mes/digest/mes_dig
Now, what I don't understand is WHY my case isn't a no-brainer.
I made $30k+ at my full time job. After making $500 at the part time job, I decided to quit to FOCUS on my full time job. 4 months later I was unexpectedly LAID off from my full time job.
Yes, I quit a job. BUT, when I quit that "job", I did NOT put myself into unemployment. When I "quit", I was CONTINUING to work full time.
Therefore, I did NOT willingly put myself into unemployment. Me being LAID off put me into INVOLUNTARY unemployment.
How is this not a no-brainer?
Why can't they just charge my FULL time employer for unemployment, and NOT charge the part time?
I thought that in order to be DISQUALIFIED for QUITTING, you're QUITTING of a job had to PUT you into unemployment.
MY QUITTING OF A JOB, ONLY MADE IT ONE LESS JOB. NOT UNEMPLOYED.
I am confused as to why there is ANY chance that I might not receive my benefits?
I made all those arguments in a similar case recently and lost the case before the ALJ. The ALJ's decision was appealed to the Boared of Review in Lansing where the claimant lost in a split decision. I'm advising the claimant to appeal her case to Circuit Court. The decision you sent me will be helpful in her appeal. I wish I had seen it before the ALJ hearing. Thanks for providing it to me. It's a good and correct decision. It may well be that most ALJs will rule in your favor based on that decision. I definitely would provide the judge a copy of the decision at your hearing.
but WHAT is their rationale?
Better yet, why doesn't Section 29(5) apply to any of these cases? "Leaving to accept full time work."
Yes, I quit a job, but I did that in order to work full time at a different employer. 4 months later, I was LAID off.
How does 29(5) not protect people in my situation?
The Board of Review majority didn't provide a rationale for affirming the ALJ's decision. The minority dissent was 4 pages of fine print. I could send you copies of the ALJ decision and the BOR decision if you like. In looking back at the case file, I actually did cite the Dickerson decision and I gave the judge a copy.
The ALJ's rationale was as follows:
"The claimant left her job voluntarily and has not demonstrated that it was with good cause attributable to her employer. The claimant's disqualification is not saved by the principle that a claimant quitting one job but retaining another full time job is not disqualifying under Secsion 29(1)(a). When the claimant quit her employment with Employer #1 on the effective date of August 28, she was no longer employed full time with Employer #2 having been laid off for lack of work."
My comment: The claimant had two full time jobs. She was told she was laid off from one job after she had given notice at the other job. As I recall she was laid off from the job she didn't quit because the patient could no longer afford to pay for the home care service. What the judge said was technically true. But the claimant had no knowledge that she was going to be laid off by Employer #2 when she gave notice of resignation to Employer #1. Another factor not mentioned in the decision was that she registered for a school class during the daytime hours she had been working for Employer #1, and when she was laid off by Employer #2 she did not go back to Employer #1 to see if work was available.
My husband was told (after 11 months in a professional management position in a public institution) that he was being fired because he failed to include one previous job on his original application. It was a 5 month retail stint. At his current job, there had been tension because of differences in management philosophies. But his 6 month review was very positive (he has copies of his personnel file) and he had not been "written up" for these disagreements. They say his failure to list this old job constituted a material omission and they would not have hired him if they had this info. In reality, he made no attempt to hide this former job...in fact, he collaborated with the former employer's company regularly on behalf of this current job. He should have listed it, sure, but putting his best foot forward n his app...this job was beneath his professional training, was only 5 months, and when he left, he went to work for a competing store (upsetting the owner). But the fine print on his app. says that omissions on the app a grounds for dismissal. I should mention that this former boss is friends with the current director.
In negotiation today (presentation of the firing letter), he negotiated a written agreement that he was allowed to "resign in lieu of termination". He accepted so he could receive a very small severance and not have "fired" on his professional record. But it clearly state the "in lieu of" language.
They would not agree to "not contest" unemployment. Said the dept. did not have the authority to say one way or the other.
We will of course file for Michigan UI. Two questions though. What do we give as the "reason" for being unemployed? And secondly, is their "reason" should they contest, likely to rise to the level of serious misconduct?
Thanks for any perspective you may have.
1. I don't believe your husband's omission of a 6-month job is a "material" omission, i.e., one that would have been likely to have caused the employer not to hire him. Material falsifications or omissions which amount to misconduct under the unemployment statute are listing college degrees that were not obtained, omitting serious criminal convictions and the like.
2. My recollection is that there are court cases in Michigan which have ruled that cases like your husband's where the employee resigned under duress are not voluntary leaving (resignation) cases. They are misconduct cases in which the burden of proof is on the employer. In my opinion, your husband's action did not amount to misconduct under the unemployment statute.
3. Unscrupulous employers use the bait of severance pay and leaving without a dismissal on their record to get employees who they are actually firing to sign a resignation letter in order to attempt to disqualify them from unemployment compensation and possibly other legal action. These "resignations" are not worth the paper they are printed on.
4. What to tell the unemployment agency--good question. I would be inclined to tell the agency that IN FACT I WAS FIRED BUT WAS INDUCED TO SIGN A RESIGNATION LETTER IN ORDER TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR SEVERANCE PAY AND NOT HAVE A DISCHARGE ON MY RECORD.
Your husband may have to go to a hearing before an administrative law judge in order to establish his eligibility for unemployment compensation. Even there a ruling of eligibility is not certain because some judges simply take the resignation letter as meaning what it says and rule that the case was a voluntary leaving without good cause attributable to the employer.
Your husband should observe all time limits for requests for redeterminations and requests for a hearing before an administrative law judge. And he should keep calling MARVIN to certify that he is available and seeking employment and report any earnings. The agency is very strict about all the reporting and other rules in the "green book."
Good luck! If you think of it let us know how the case develops and is resolved.
How would you be able to send it to me?
My E-mail is SpartanCoil AT yahoo.com
Obviously AT becomes "@" and there are no spaces. I only did it that way so "spy bots" don't read ur hubpage and get my E-mail for SPAM.
Your case was a little bit different than mine.
She quit a job, WHILE she was not working for the other employer at the time.
I quit a job, then CONTINUED to work for 4 months FULL TIME before I was unexpectedly laid off.
Also, would it work towards me or against me if the part time job that I quit, was an ice cream store, and would have been shutting down 3 or 4 weeks later anyway for the winter.
Your client quit a job WHILE she wasn't working for the other company, then she got laid off.
I, along with Dickerson in the case, quit a part time job WHILE working full time, and CONTINUED to work Full Time for a period of time.
If you red the ALJ's rationale, it appears that a LARGE portion of his reasoning behind DENYING her, is because when she QUIT the part time job, SHE NEVER WENT BACK TO WORK FOR THE OTHER JOB.
It sounds like if she HAD gone back to work, for a few weeks or months, then was completely unexpectedly laid off, she would have been accepted.
Do you agree?
The ALJ says "The claimant is NOT saved by the principle that quitting one job while retaining another FULL TIME job is NOT disqualifying under section 29"
Now, CORRECT me if I am wrong, but the ALJ just bluntly said that IF the claimant HAD quit a job, but CONTINUED to work full time at another job for a length of time, she would have been NOT disqualified under Section 29.
In other words, because she QUIT a job, but did NOT continue to work Full Time at another job, she is disqualified.
Therefore, technically, he WOULD have sided with me, because I quit a job, but CONTINUED to work full time.
Did I interpret his rationale correctly?
He simply states that IF she quit a job, but retained another full time job, she WOULD be saved. But because she did not work full time with another employer for any length of time, that principle in section 29 does not save her.
Your reasoning appears to me to be correct. In my opinion, for whatever that's worth, is that you should be eligible. Logic doesn't always prevail, however.
Brian, I don't have the documents in digital form. I received paper copies of the ALJ and B.O.R. decisions.
I am on unemployment right now. If I get a job at a contract company, work through the contract and if I'm not retained am i allowed to go on unemployment?
Also, I've heard some terms 'temp-contract' and 'temp-perm'. What do I need to ask a contract company about what my status would be before I hire in so I know what unemployment benefits rights I would have if later I am dismissed/contract not renewed.
You may be eligible IF YOU NOTIFY THE TEMP AGENCY WITHIN A WEEK AFTER AN ASSIGNMENT ENDS. If you don't notify the temp agency within a week you are considered a quit (voluntary leaving) and you have to start over and re-qualify for benefits. Failing to notify the temp agency trips up quite a few claimants. I'm not familiar with the distinction between temp contract and temp perm. It certainly would be a good idea to inquire and have somebody explain all the procedures to you and exactly what your obligations are.
Hi Ralph,
I have a question I hope you can answer for me. I just accepted a job on may 29th and really believed that it would be a good replacement from the one I lost due to the store going bankrupt and closing there stores. I really could have stayed on unemployment longer if I found a job closer to the one I was at before. That job was only 15 minutes.
Now, I accepted this job and have been there for about 2 1/2 weeks. Unfortunately, Its not at all how it seems. But, when I was hired they told me that it would be exactly like my other job the interviewing manager even told me that it would be a "replacement job".
But the bottom line is I go in everyday exhausted because it takes me about 45 minutes to 50 minutes with all the traffic everyday. My old job was 15 minutes. My manager basically attacks me before I even walk in the door about opening credit cards and if I dont I will be terminated! I dont know what to do. Can you please give me some advice? I feel very vunerable right now, mistreated and lead on. Can I still collect my original claim since its only been 2 1/2 weeks since Ive been at this new job?
Sarah
I'm afraid I can't offer you much encouragement. If you resign you will probably not be eligible for benefits. The burden would be on you to establish "good cause attributable to the employer" which would cause a reasonable person to resign. That is not easy to do. Your situation sounds like it falls in a gray area. And court cases have said that employees have no right to expect a perfect boss, in cases where supervisors have verbally abused employees (shouted and even occasionally used profanity). Basically, the law says the reasonable person will find another job before quitting the one he or she has. 45-50 minutes is a long commute, but again I doubt that that would be found to be good cause for resigning. Sorry I can't be more encouraging. Good luck.
Further to Sarah: In a case where the claimant testified that she quit her job because she could not tolerate being constantly yelled at by her foreman the court of appeals ruled as follows:
"We cannot say as a matter of law that the supervisor's conduct is so compelling that reasonable persons of average sensibilities would conclude that plaintiff had a valid reason to give up her employment....A harmonious relationship with a sup0ervisor helps to make an employee's work pleasant, but the Employment Security Act was designed to address the evil of involuntary economic insecurity and not to compensate the worker who has an imperfect supervisor."
The court went overboard, in my opinion, on this decision. An employee should not be denied benefits for quitting because of continual abuse by a supervisor. Despite this appellate court ruling, some judges will rule for claimants in these kind of situations depending on the nature and extent of the abuse.
Hi Ralph,
Thank you for answering my question, but as I said before I just started this job and they are threatening to fire me if i dont open 15 credit card charges within 2 months. I cant even open 1. If they do fire me for they would I be able to collect?
Hi Sarah,
Based on what you said you would be eligible for unemployment benefits. The burden is on the employer to prove misconduct. Misconduct has been defined by the courts as "wanton or willful disregard of the employer's interest" which means a single serious offense or repeated minor offenses such as tardiness, absence without reasonable cause and the like. Inability to meet the employer's expectations or standards is not misconduct.
Hi Ralph,
I've been w/ my company for 10 years and am currently expecting my second child. My doctor pulled me off of work 12 weeks prior to the birth for High Risk reasons. I applied for FMLA & Short Term Disability. However the FMLA only runs for 12 weeks - which would be right around the due date. My doctors have already told me to expect 8 weeks after the c-section before returning to work. If my company decides to replace my position on week 13, am I eligible for Unemployment? Is there a certain % of my regular pay that is usually given with unemployment?
My understanding is that you would not be eligible for unemployment benefits while you are on a pregnancy leave. To be eligible you must be available for work and seeking work. Sorry I'm not able to offer encouraging advice. Good luck with your pregnancy and delivery.
If your employer refuses to allow you to return to work when your doctor approves your return you should then be eligible for benefits.
Hi Dennis:
I am already receiving unemployment benefits. Recently I missed my scheduled time to contact MARVIN. I initially believed that I had called and MARVIN had an error but I contacted Customer Service and there was no error and when I pulled my phone records I saw I didn't call. Then I went through my journal to see what was going on that would make me not call, It was the week that my neice who lived with me had been attacked by her boyfriend and her and her son put out of the car and made to walk without any money. I assume in all of the rush and haste I didn't call. I sent in my appeal and letter stating this and I am wondering if this is "good cause". If not what is "good cause".
Hello Ralph...I was fired from my job last month. I filed for unemployment benefits. My employer stated, in my termination letter, that I was fired for excessive absenteeism. We were allowed five sick days in a rolling-12 month period. At the time of my discharge I had seven. It was also stated in the letter that I was given a verbal warning on Nov. 3, 2008 for tardiness and that I was suspended in Jan. 2009 for absenteeism. I recieved the verbal warning at the time of my suspension. That was all I was given prior to termination. I called -in April 30, 2009, on May 5, my supervisor gave me a document stating that she had approved my last call-in. I worked until May 7, the day I was terminated. When I filed my unemployment claim, it came back within 2 weeks denying me benefits. The employer said I had excessive attendance violations and the last call-in I didn't properly notify my employer and my last absence was due to circumstances within my control. I called the UI today and was informed that my ex-employer has produced a document called a verbal-written warning. There was no such animal. You get a verbal or written warning. The rep. on the phone said it was dated for Nov. 4, 2008 with my signature!!! How low!!! I have never seen the document, so how could I sign it? They forged my signature. My termination letter speaks of the infamous VERBAL warning that I supposedly recieved. The rep. goes on to tell me that they have also thrown in some tardies that were never discussed with me and not mentioned in the termination letter. They even faxed a copy of my performance evaluation. I guess to add punch. My question is...are employers allowed to change the reason (s) they terminated an employee and lie because they don't want that employee recieving benefits? It clearly states I was fired for excessive absenteeism. And what about condonation? I was on the payroll seven days after my last call-in before I was let go. Wouldn't that apply in this case? Can you please shed some light on this issue please? Thank you so much Ralph.
Alycia, the Michigan Unemployment Agency is quite strict about "good cause" for not calling MARVIN to certify. For all intents and purposes you may as well read "good cause" as "unable" due to hospitalization, car hit by train, phone company cut of my service and I couldn't use a neighbor's phone or the like. Fortunately, if you are still unemployed when your benefits are exhausted the two weeks will not be lost, but will be tacked on at the end.
Butterfly64,
Absenses alone are not disqualifying misconduct. The employer has the burden of proving that you were absent WITHOUT REASONABLE CAUSE several times within a reasonable period,and that you did not respond to warnings about the issue.
Some employers dredge up all kinds of phony or exaggerated issues in order to disqualify their former employees from receiving benefits. All you do is request a redetermination and if that is unfavorable request a hearing before an administrative law judge. In the meantime keep calling MARVIN until your case is resolved. The ALJ will weigh the evidence and testimony presented by you employer and by you and decide whether you are eligible for benefits. Good luck!
Do you know the wait time for a determination of EUC benefits in Michigan. The form I received said to allow 10 business days for a determination. It's been almost 15 business days and I have not heard anything. Just thought you may be able to shed some light on this. Thanks
ThanksRalph for promptly responding to my comment. I did fax a Protest of Determination to the UIA on June 5th. I faxed to them a handwriiten letter explaining what really happened (no warnings). I also faxed my termination letter which stated I was teminated for excessive absenteeism. Also faxed were documents that show my last call-in was.approved, and I was never given any warnings for absenteeism. I only recieved a verbal warning in Jan. for excessive tardiness. I will keep you updated on any new developments.
Matt, I think the agency is usually pretty prompt with determinations. However, with the current high unemployment in Michigan there have been a lot of delays. I don't have access to information on the average time required for determinations or redeterminations. The administrative law judges are usually quite prompt--a week or less in most cases.
MATT- since I am going through the determination/redetermination/appeal process right now, I can tell you how long it took for each.
1. Initial determination - 6 weeks
2. Redetermination - 7 weeks
3. Request for hearing- 7 weeks
I filed January 15th, and just TODAY, June 24th, did I get to talk in front of an Administrative Law Judge.
Not trying to scare you, just want you to be prepared. Expect to wait AT LEAST a month. Do NOT depend on that money. Even if you get your determination in 5 weeks, it could rule against you. Then you've got another 6 weeks for a determination!
Ralph, so ALJ decisions are usually receive within 1 week? And Ralph, thanks SO much for all of your help. You are the only person I know of who is offering free information and advice on this. I really admire you for that. You REALLY are Mr. Deeds, doing a great deed for people in need of help.
Ralph,
I have one more questions:
IF the ALJ decides in my favor, and my employer for SOME reason decides to appeal the ALJ's decision, I know it goes to the Board in Lansing, BUT, will I continue to receive benefits until the Board rules in her favor (IF they do), or will they automatically stop payments to me, and make me wait for the Board to rule in my favor?
That's what I'm really worried about. That the ALJ will rule in my favor, but my employer will protest it, and then I won't get any money until the Board of Review rules in my favor? Which could be another 2 months!!
GVAZDA RULED IN MY FAVOR!!!!!
Thanks so much for recommending Steve B.!!!!!!!!!!!!
Congrats! That's good news. If your're lucky the employer won't appeal.
How long should I wait for the Board of Review to make a decision? The BOR has had my case since Feb. and when I call they tell me the BOR has no time frame.
Yours must be a tough case. The B.O.R. usually is pretty prompt. Six months is unusually long. Good luck.
Thank you for your response.
Nancy - Did you win the ALJ decision?
Or did you lose the ALJ decision, and YOU appealed to the B.O.R.?
IF you won the ALJ decision, and your employer Appealed to the B.O.R., did they stop payments to you? Or do they keep paying you until the B.O.R. ruled in your employer's favor?
The Agency keeps (or starts) paying your benefits even if an employer appeals the ALJ decision.
The company I worked for just sold a portion of its manufacturing business back to a company they had bought it from a few years ago. I worked for that company then and was sold in that separation. Friday the entire company was split into four groups. The ones who will stay with the present company, the ones who will be hired by the buying company, the ones who no longer have a position with either company, and the one i was put into, they ones who are being asked to be temporary employees (employed by a temp agency), at same pay, no benefits. Doing the exact same job, for buying company, approx. 2-6 weeks, depending on how long they take to get everything situated. We were told that they strongly recommended we take this "opportunity" as to turn down a job offer may effect our UC elegibility. We were told that although we were permanently separated from our current employer, we did not need to file at unemployment since they new companys temp position begins on Monday should we choose to accept it. So my questions are:
1. Can my UC elegibility be denied if I do not want to be a temporary employee working for the buying company. I need healthcare and other benefits offered by full time permanent employment, and being a full time temp doesnt offer the time need to search, apply and interview for permanent positions.
2. If i take this offer and become employed by the temporary agency, will I have to stay employed by the temp agency after the temporary position is over. Or if I tell them I don't want to be employed past that point is that to be considered quitting a job and thus again effecting my UC benefits.
3. If I do take the temp job, should I still file for unemployment since my employer of 10 years has severed me from the company, although I wont actually be missing any pay by jumping from one job right into the other.
I really dont mind helping the new company out especially making the same rate of pay (minus benefits) for a short period of time but I dont want to be tied to a temp agency after that. Wish they would have just let me go. I know this is short notice but its all the time they gave us to decide. clueless and bummed! thanks!
1. Depending on how your compensation and benefits compare as a temp employee with your compensation and benefits at your original employer you may have "good cause attributable to your employer" for not taking the offer. However, beware, the burden is on you to establish good cause attributable to your employer. The basic law says that a reasonable person will find another job before quitting the one he has. There are court decisions which say that a 17 percent wage cut amounts to good cause for quitting.
2. If you take the temp agency job and the assignment comes to an end you would be obligated to accept another temp assignment from the company. If you refused a suitable assignment you would be ineligible for benefits. Moreover, employees of temp agencies are obligated to notify their temp agency withing 5 days after the conclusion of an assignment. If you fail to do so you will be considered a quit without good cause attributable to your employer and ineligible for benefits.
3. It would be pointless, as far as I can see, for you to file for unemployment compensation if you accept the temp job. You would not be eligible for benefits so long as you are working tor the temp employer. If you were laid off by the temp employer later on you should file for benefit. Part of the benefits might be charged to your original employer.
Good luck!
[My answers are based on my experience in Michigan. I believe they are correct to the best of my knowledge, but I am not warranting that they are applicable to your case].
So, if you have a hearing (conducted by phone since i live out of town) before the ALJ, and the reason for the hearing was a three month period of time that employer thought i was paid for, but i was not, and the ALJ's decision was that i was ineligible from collecting for a period of like over year! now they want $10K back, AND i did hire an attorney to file an Appeal for me, which he did at the beginning of 2009. He ordered a transcript, and then when he received it, it was incomplete. It is now six months later, and my attorney says he has heard nothing.
How long does it usually take to hear something back from the BOR? And how can an ALJ rule on a period of time that was not initially referenced to on the notice of hearing?
Thanks for ANY input you can give me.
The length of time taken by the Board of Review to issue a decsision varies widely with the Board's case load and the complexity of each case. The ALJ is supposed to rule only on the issues listed on the Notice of Hearing. If an additional issue arises during a hearing he is supposed to adjourn the hearing so that both parties have an opportunity to deal with the new issue. However, if both parties agree to allow the new issue to be discussed the hearing can go forward and the new issue decided by the the ALJ.
Thanks for the advice Brian! I did have to wait 6 weeks for my initial determination. I collected unemployment checks for the 26 weeks and was sent a letter telling me how to apply for the Emergency Unemployment Compensation (EUC). I applied for that and am now awaiting a determination on that. The letter they sent said 10 business days, but if it's anything like the initial determination to see if I was eligible for unemployment in the first place, it could take much longer. I'll just keep certifying and wait to see if I am eligible for the EUC.
The AlJ went against me. My employer told me my termination was imminent due to missed work and I was still in my probationary period.The asst.mgr told me if I resigned I could re-apply when my issue was resolved(baby-sitter)When I re-applied for my position back,the record showed I was fired for job abandonment but I had sent in a written resignation.(No one has a record of that.) I am disqualified because I quit even tho employer says no she was terminated.ALJ hearing was 2 days before Christmas,so I could not find an Advocate for my hearing.Board of Review has had my case since Feb.2.No one can help me because my case is with the BOR.
Sorry to hear that. Maybe the B.O.R. will go the other way. Good luck.
Sir, You are the first person in 5 months that has given me any help with the above matter. I was wondering what you think my chances are and if there is anything else I can do at this point.
It might be helpful in speeding up your decision if you could get your state represenative or state senator's office to contact the B.O.R. I don't think they could influence the decision one way or the other, but they might speed it up. I wouldn't hold out too much hope that the B.O.R. will reverse the ALJ. They affirm the majority of decisions, but they also reverse a significant number. Good luck! Let us know when your case is resolved. In the meantime keep calling MARVIN.
LOL!! I have been calling Marvin every other week for almost a year and haven't rec'd a dime!
The company for which I worked for 5 years went into chapter 11 bankruptcy in April 2008. The conevrsion to Chapter 7 was completed June 30, 2009. As the company no longer exists, my employment also ended June 30, however i have been offered the opportunity to stay on as a contract employee (not through a temp agency) of the liquidating trustee. My question is: should I file for unemployment immediately or wait until after the contract expires?
If there is no gap in your employment I don't see a problem with waiting until your contract employment is completed. If you filed before that, your earnings would render you ineligible for benefits. I've had no personal experience with this situation, so you may wish to contact the Unemployment Agency for an opinion. On the Agency website linked above you'll find a list of "Problem Resolution Offices" where you can go and speak face-to-face with a human being.
Jean, here's a link to the Agency's Problem Resolution Offices http://www.michigan.gov/uia/0,1607,7-118--78925--,
When you do apply for benefits make sure you follow the instructions to the letter. The Agency is quite strict about compliance with its rules and deadlines. You will get a green booklet which explains the procedures in detail. You should read it and follow the instructions carefully.
My husband was fired from his job April 14, 2009. His benefits were denied on the basis of misconduct on the original determination and the redetermination. Tuesday he faxed in a request for an appeal before an ALJ. He worked for an electronics retailer. He had previously worked for the company for 4 years and was a store manager for 2 1/2. He left on good terms the first time. He started working for them again in Sept '08 and had only 6 weeks of training before they made him a manager again and he was never trained in the new policies that had been implemented since the last time he worked for the company. He was fired because the company stated he gave unauthorized discounts using price matching without a competitor's ad. He had a customer that was eligible for an upgrade on a cell phone and met all requirements for the discounted price of the phone. The phone rang up at full price and he contacted the service provider who told him that it should have rang up with the discounts. He made several calls to supervisors to find out what to do and nobody returned his calls. He finally called a senior manager and was told to change the price through price matching. He did so and noted the customer's account and emailed his district manager about the situation. It had always been the company's policy in the past to make sure that the customer was given the price as marked, so he thought that he did was expected of him in the situation. Over a month later, he was fired for it. From what I understand from Michigan case law, he should have been eligible for unemployment benefits because he acted in "good faith." Am I wrong on this? How should this be brought up in front of the ALJ? Do we even have a chance at this appeal?
My husband (Jon) was fired from his job, at the time his boss said that he needed to make cut backs & that Jon was on the list. His boss is now disputing Jon's unemployment claim, stating that Jon showed blatant disrespect for pubic safety. In the 5 plus years that Jon worked for the company he has never gotten a ticket but was written up for a speeding warning 2 years ago (3 miles over) Jon was also in 2 no-fault accidents. In Sept 07 he was in a head on accident where a lady crossed the center line & hit HIM head on. He wasn't given any form of ticket nor was he written up. His boss did require a blood draw for drugs & alcohol, which came back clear. Then this winter a deer hit him in the side panel of the delivery truck ~ again no ticket & no write up. Jon has a perfect driving record in & out of work. His boss has never put his on disciplinary suspension & up until 2 week ago hasn't ever thought that he was in danger of losing his job. What should we expect to happen? We called the Michigan unemployment agency & they said the dispute could take 3-6 weeks & that Jon should get a copy of the dispute in the mail. When & how will a decision be made? What are Jon's chances of getting the unemployment? He's looking for employment but their just aren't any jobs!!
Michelle, its hard for me to offer an accurate opinion without reading the file and seeing what the company is telling the Agency. However, based on what you said it sounds to me like your husband should be eligible for benefits. The burden is on the employer to establish misconduct which requires intent to harm the interest of the employer. I suggest that he get an advocate and pursue his appeal before an ALJ. In the meantime he should continue to call MARVIN until his appeal is resolved.
Stacy, the first step is an agency determination. If that goes against your husband, he should ask for a redetermination. If the redetermination goes against him he can appeal within the 30 day time limit by asking for a hearing before an administrative law judge. The judges reverse the agency fairly often. It doesn't sound to me as if your husband committed disqualifying misconduct. The burden is on the employer to prove "wanton or willful disregard of the employer's interest." Your husband should keep calling MARVIN until his appeal is finally resolved. This can take several months because the Agency is flooded with cases. Good luck!
I just received a re-determination from Michigan Unemployment stating that I need to repay my unemployment that I collected for the amount that I collected at the beginning of the 2009 year. I quit a secondary job (I left for medial reasons) a month prior to being laid off from my full time (40 + hour a week) primary job. They are stating that since I left this 20 hour a week secondary job (the job was for extra money) I was not eligible for benefits. I do agree that my secondary job should not have to pay for unemployment as I was only with them for about 3 months. I was with my primary employer for over 2.5 years and that is where the benefit should have been pulled from. I did not make the $4344.00 between the "quitting" of the secondary job and being laid off from my primary job as they did not count one of may paychecks because of the "dates worked" indicated on the check.
I would like to appeal this decision with a hearing. What type of documentation would they be looking at this hearing. What do you think my chances are for winning a favorable decision? I guess you could call my defense "how can I predict the future when my crystal ball was in the shop?"
Thank you for your time and information,
Kristin
In my opinion, the Unemployment Agency is wrong in your case although the law isn't clear. I can't predict your chances of winning. In part it will depend on your luck of the draw of a judge. You should be prepared to testify on the dates you worked and earnings at each employer and the circumstances of your terminations. I had a case similar to yours not long ago, and, unfortunately, the claimant lost. She is appealing to the Board of Review. I wish I could offer you more encouragement. Good luck.
If you think of it, let us know how your case turns out, and keep calling MARVIN until your case is settled.
I have been reading that in Michigan you may be eligible to collect unemployment for a total of 79 weeks. 26 weeks for the initial unemployment, 33 weeks for the EUC tier 1 and tier 2. Now it looks like you can get another 20 weeks after your EUC has run out. Is this true? I just recently began my collecting on my EUC Tier 1 of 20 weeks and I'm hoping as long as a keep certifying and keeping a bi-weekly work seach record that I will be eligible for that extra 20 weeks.
From the Unemployment Agency website:
How do I apply for an unemployment extension? If any unemployment benefit extensions are added or changed, UIA will notify potentially eligible unemployed workers by mail. Currently, there are two federal extensions in effect in Michigan - Emergency Unemployment Compensation (EUC) tier 1 and tier 2 - and the federal-state Extended Benefits (EB) program.
Filing instructions for the federal EUC tier 1 program (20 weeks of benefits maximum) are mailed to unemployed workers who are about to exhaust their regular state benefits. When workers exhaust their EUC tier 1 benefits, the second tier (13 weeks maximum) is calculated automatically and a determination is mailed to workers showing the additional weeks of benefits. Workers do not need to apply for EUC tier 2. They simply continue to call MARVIN.
Michigan issued Extended Benefits to those who are unemployed or underemployed, have exhausted all of their state and federal unemployment benefits and federal EUC and cannot establish a new claim on or after 1/25/09. In addition, those claiming EB must perform a work search and list the employers contacted each week. EB provides up to 20 weeks of benefits. UIA notifies workers to file for EB when they are about to exhaust their final EUC tier 2 benefit payments.
Ralph, I was let go from my job for not reaching a goal of 60 phone calls per week. It said I was l was aware of the policy & recieved past warnings. I have 1 written discusion in my file on that. A schedule was made for me to sit at a back station and make calls. The week in question I was kept from my station and left to run the front desk one afternoon because of another employee going home. When I tried to explain it they let me go instead. What do you think?
Hello I was wondering if you can answer a question for me-I live in Florida I know that from state to state it is diffrent but... here goes...I was on unemployment in January 09 and was getting benefits till April 09 and it was the extended unemployment benefits -I still had $1700 left on the extended benefits but I started working in April so my benefits stopped and now I was let go due to what they are stating that I was argumentative which I was not but they had to down size and I was the last person hired first person fired. I wanted to know since I only worked there 3 months would I still be able to get the extended benefits that were left on my claim. I know they will fight me on this and I will appeal because what they are stating is untruthful. Do you have any answers for me???????
Thank You
Gina, I'm not completely sure of the answer to your question. In Michigan I think you would be eligible to continue your benefits because "being argumentative" does not remotely amount to misconduct under the statute. I would appeal to an administrative law judge hearing. Until your appeal is resolved keep on certifying in accordance with the Florida unemployment agency procedures. NOTE: I have no experience in Florida or knowledge of Florida unemployment compensation regulations. Good luck!
Mary, from what you said you would not be disqualified from unemployment benefits in Michigan. Misconduct requires intent to disregard your employer's interest. Inability to make a quota of calls does not amount to misconduct unless you were taking too long for lunch or coffee breaks. Good luck.
Seems that many employers will let someone go so they can claim unemployment benefits. I have a brother in law that quit a couple of jobs and then was laid off. He's one of the few that do not get the benefits.
I recently won my appeals and am owed 22 weeks of unemployment. How long do I have to wait before receiving the back money from Unemployment
In Michigan the checks usually go out withing a couple of weeks.
Mr. Deeds: I wonder if you might provide me with some advice on an unemployment insurance appeal. I failed to register/certify for benefits because I had a reasonable belief I would be quickly re-employed, either by my former employer, or another company. I was not and was forced to file for unemployment insurance. My claim for back benefits was denied as "personal and non-compelling." How best to appeal and what is the standard to show good cause for failure to register? Thanks.
In Michigan the standard for good cause for missing a filing or certifying deadline is very strict. Basically you must be unable to timely file or certify, e.g., seriously ill, out of the state for a family funeral or given misinformation by a representative of the Unemployment Agency. However, the weeks you missed out on will be tacked on at the end if you are still unemployed. Sorry I can't be more encouraging.
Thanks, Ralph. You are providing a valued service. In stating, "the weeks you missed out on will be tacked on at the end if you are still unemployed," you mean that the period I did not claim will be included in my 26 weeks, not in addition to. Correct?
My understanding is that if you become eligible for unemployment compensation in the future, the period you did not claim will not be deducted from your 26 weeks of eligibility. That is you will be eligible for 26 weeks plus any extensions in effect for which you may become eligible.
Hi, I live in Michigan and was fired from my job of 2 yrs without any warning, they just took me off the schedule and said I no longer had a job.I filed for unemployment and recieved a letter asking for more info because my employer said I was fired for poor attendence. That was over me not being able to work for 2 days because I had a misscarrige. Any way I supplied unemployment with the reason and the docs excuse I had given my employer. I then was sent a letter saying I was denied because I quit????????????? Can they have it both ways? My employer said I quit the 5th of june , but I worked the 5th and the 6th and was on the schedule for the next week. My pay stub reflects I worked after my employer claims I quit. I ask for a redetermination and provided a copy of my pay stub and schedules and time clock. How can they lie like this?
If I were you I would request a redetermination and if that is unfavorable ask for a hearing before an administrative law judge. The agency makes quite a few mistakes in its determinations which are often reversed by administrative law judges. The result will depend on the facts regarding your termination based on testimony by you and your employer before an administrative law judge.
I wanted to add what happened. On the 5th of June I talked to my employer, because since I had the misscarrige they cut my hours way down,and I did talk to her about my hours and told her I "MAY" have to look for another job she said we could work it out. I finished my shift on the 5th came into work on the 6th they had me on the scheudle the following week for weds , thurs, and fri. , so I felt every thing was fine. I called weds morning to see if I had to be in at 1 or 2: o clock that day I was told I was taken off the schedule all together and no longer had a job. I guess I was fired for wanting more hours. My employers is lieing now and saying I quit. How do you quit on the 5th and work on the 6th? She claims I quit on the 5th and she accepted it on the 11th. Yet she had me on the schedule to work that week then redid the schedule at the beginning of the week and took me off, which was done before the 11th. I was smart enuff to get a copy of both those schedules. How long does unemployment have to get back with you once you ask for a redetermination?
Thank You So Much.
Cass
Sounds to me like you should be eligible for benefits. But that will depend on what your employer says at the hearing and what you say and who the judge believes. There is no set time limit on the Agency for its redeterminations. As you might imagine they are very busy now and taking longer than usual. I don't think it should take more than a month.
I live in Michigan and I've been laid off for lack of work since May. As of July 13, my plant laid off almost everyone for two weeks for shut-down. Almost everyone is off,yet there are a few people (in the same department and classification as me) that are working during the shut-down based on their senority. I didn't have enough to return to work with my 10 years.
They are forcing us to use vacation for these weeks. Everyone was already paid for vacation in May in a lump-sum payment. So we won't actually recieve any earnings during these two weeks. Also, others that worked the week before the shut-down recieved letters from the state stating the employer filed new claims for them for lack of work. I did not receive a letter because my claim is still open.
Can they force me not to call marvin for these two weeks? I've worked at this plant for 10 years. This is not an assembly plant and we've always worked during the shut-down or had inverse-senority lay-offs to accomodate for the lack of work.
Your vacation pay which you received in May may be assigned by your employer to the two week shutdown period in July provided:
"To assign vacation pay the employer must first give Notice to the claimant, in writing, before his/her last day of work and prior to the period to which the employer has decided to assign the vacation pay.
"The notice must include the following:
--that the employer intends to make the assignment of vacation pay;
--the period to which the employer is assigning the vacation pay; and
--that the assignment of vacation pay to a period of unemployment may make the claimant ineligible for unemployment benefits for that period.
"The Notice to the claimant must be made in one of the following ways:
--include the Notice in the contract of employment;
--deliver the Notice to the claimant and union representative of the claimant; or
Post the Notice on the job befgore the claimant's last day of work and give a copy to the claimant's union representative."
Hi Ralph, first off I want to say that I think it's incredible that you take the time to try to help people like this, free of charge. It's a rare thing in today's world.
I have to go to a hearing next month because my ex-employer is appealing the benefits I've collected since they terminated me in February. I was fired for an error on a timesheet that was my fault. The error, if it had not been caught, would have resulted in me getting overpaid by 1/4 of an hour. I was employed with the company for 7 years.
They are trying to claim deliberate falsification of hours worked on my part.
The error was the result of my own incompetence, but was certainly not "deliberate". I forgot to punch in electronically that day (not a rare occurrence there), and didn't realize it until I went to punch out at the end of the day. Now it is the responsibility of a certain supervisor there to mark employees of my position as "late" on the sign-in sheet, and to also mark down the time they arrived if they were late. When I filled out the time correction form, I checked the sign-in sheet and saw that I had not been marked as late.
Not thinking anything of it, and not being aware of my exact arrival time due to not seeing the time clock when I arrived that day, I simply put down my scheduled start time.
I was informed the following week that I had been terminated due to the reason stated above. They had a manager from a different shift fire me, and I was never even given the opportunity to speak to anyone from my shift about the incident. No disciplinary action was taken against the supervisor who didn't mark down my arrival time.
It might also be worthy to note that I was not replaced. In fact, none of the employees at my position who have left or been fired have been replaced in over 2 years there. It was no secret that they had an over-abundance of people at that position.
I am very nervous about next months hearing, as I know that they will attempt to portray certain events and statements out of context. I know this because of written statements from the management obtained by my union steward.
Is it definitely in my best interest to obtain an advocate in this situation? Also, does a ruling against the claimant always result in the claimant having to pay back benefits already received?
Jason, in my opinion you are entitled to benefits but winning your case before some of the administrative law judges will not be a slam dunk. Misconduct under the controlling case is defined as "wanton or willful disregard of the employer's interest" and intent is one of the requisite elements the employer must prove. The burden is on the employer to establish misconduct. At the hearing the employer usually is required to testify first followed by an opportunity for your representative to cross examine the employer witness(es). They you will have an opportunity to tell your side of the story in the form of questions from your representative and possibly the judge and your answers. Then the employer representative will have the opportunity to cross examine you. To win you will have to explain how the error happened and convince the judge that it was inadvertent or careless, not intentional. Some judges in Michigan might be inclined to treat the incident as theft which is clearly misconduct under the law, even when only a small value is involved. Others will be more likely to accept your testimony that you had no intent to enter an incorrect time on the time sheet.
It will definitely be to your advantage to have an advocate. If you like you can email me through HubPages, and I might be able to advise you on a good advocate and on what you are likely to encounter from the judge who will be hearing your case. Best of luck!
If you lose, the Unemployment Agency will ask you to repay the benefits you have received. They will grab any state income tax refund to which you may be entitled or become entitled and a portion of any future unemployment benefits to which you may be entitled. My understanding is that they won't turn you over to a bill collector or force you into bankruptcy or put a lien on your house.
Thanks Ralph, I've just sent you an email about the ALJ.
Thanks again Ralph, I got your reply, and I'm going to do what you suggested.
Good luck!
Thank you for your earlier advice. My husband had his appeal hearing over the phone this afternoon. The person the company chose to speak on its behalf was my husband's former district manager. He had no knowledge of the case and the company didn't even bother to send any paperwork to the judge or even the district manager. The district manager couldn't even remember the date my husband was hired, promoted or fired. The judge was very irritated that the company investigator wasn't on the call and that he received no paperwork from the company. The district manager tried to bring up something that was said by the investigator and the judge interrupted him and said that if he had no further proof then the hearing was closed. It sounds to me like my husband probably won. My husband's advocate was also confident that it went well.
The judge said that we would receive a copy of his decision in the mail in a few days. My husband has a debit card for his unemployment compensation, and I was wondering about how long it would take for him to actually receive the money. Do you know if the judge's office will fax the decision to the unemployment office. My husband's been out of work for 16 weeks, so we're getting a little anxious.
Thank you so much for all of your advice. You are providing a great service.
That sounds like good news. As you know, the Unemployment Agency is very busy. But I don't think it takes very long for them to start paying benefits once they receive a decision from the ALJ. I would think it wouldn't be more than a couple of weeks although I don't have access to information on how prompt they are.
You are welcome. I'm glad your husband's case appears to have been resolved in his favor.
Thanks for the info. I just read some fine print, and here in Florida you cannot work part-time and continue to recieve benefits, unless the weekly income is below $52.00. So am I to assume, that if you can't find a full time job equivalent to what you were used to making, and you take a part-time job they will deduct this from your benefits? Hog wash!
Mr. Deeds
I was fired from my job in june and I filed for unemployment immediately.I got papers asking for more info because I was fired.I sent in the papers right away and even sent copies of my seperation papers from my employer stating the reason for seperation Involuntary Seperation Code: Failure to provide common courtesy to guest(internal&external).I'm a waitress. I just received a notice of determination and it says that I'm disqualified because of a violation of company policy, and that I was aware of the policy.Misconduct in connection with work. That I deliberately disregarded my employers interest.My manager said that a guest called him(not the complaint line)and said that i refused his coupon,was inattentive,wouldn't give him his discount, and when he asked to speak with a manager I said "NO".I started explaining to my manager what happened and that this man was lying. The manager on duty was aware of this man and how rude he was when I first approached the table but I was trying to kill him with kidness.I gave him two discounts on his bill and.I was following what he had told the staff and not accept internet coupons because that were fake. I even offered him a free dessert for the inconvenience but he declined.The manager on duty was given a heads up and even had her get me a senior discount card out of the office so the woman at the table had one.The man paid in credit card and left a good tip.My manager has had it out for me for a while so I couldn't believe that a guest would say that and it could be proven differently so I asked to see a copy of the complaint and that when my manager told me the guest personally called him and there wasn't one.He never investigated it or even spoke to the manager on duty that day he just fired me.I asked for a copy of my file and he told me he couldn't it was against the law and I couldn't even see it.I guess my question is what advice can you give me based on this information???? I have read what is misconduct and I dont know how he can tell them that when I even gave them a copy of my seperation papers and what he put as to why I was being fired.
Mr. Deeds,
I have a question pertaining to if i would be able to turn down a job offer based solely on the wages they offer.
I have 8 weeks of unemployment left on my original state claim. I should be eligible for extended benefits. As i understand, the statute says that i must accept any job offer, but could turn it down if they pay offered is more than 30% less of what i was making before. ( i have to accept if the pay is at least 70% + of what i made before)
I worked in manufacturing, and the new job would possibly be at a grocery store.
I want to work, but accepting a job making less than 70% of my previous wages would put me into bankruptcy.
Would i have good cause for turning down a job that pays less than 70% of my previous wages, and if i can do that, will it interrupt my benefits?
The green books seems kind of foggy on this.
Thank you
Christine, from what you said you should be eligible for benefits unless similar incidents have happened in the past. The employer has the burden of proving misconduct. A single isolated incident based on the customer's incorrect version of what happened doesn't amount to misconduct. You should ask for a hearing before an administrative law judge. Get the best advocate you can find and tell your side of the story to the judge. In the meantime keep calling MARVIN to certify that you are still unemployed and seeking work. Good luck.
Alan, what is a "suitable" job offer is a bit of a gray area. Generally speaking it is a job done before or that you are capable of doing based on your education, training or previous experience. Here's what the agency says
"If an individual refuses an offer of otherwise suitable work (work he has done or can do), the individual will be disqualified from receiving unemployment benefits if;
-the individual has been unemployed up to 12 weeks and the offered wage is at least 80% of the worker's most recent previous wage
-the individual has been unemployed between 13 and 20 weeks and the offered wage is at least 75% of the worker's most recent previous wage
-The individual has been unemployed more than 20 weeks and the offered wage is at least 70% of the worker's most recent previous wage
The offer of work must be "specific" in terms of hours, wages, fringe benefits, conditions and duties of the job.
Thank you for the information. This makes my question a bit clearer.
I was an engineer in the auto industry. I have been unemployed since sept of 08 and my unemployment year will be up in sept 09 - my question is will I continue to get unemployment benefits if i am still looking for a job and have not been offered an interview or a job after my year is up?
I am also going to college via NWLB and the case worker said they would send a waiver for job search to UIA but how will that affect my benefits for the next 2 years while I am in school?
You should automatically receive an application for extended benefits. I believe the current maximum in Michigan is 79 weeks. If you receive a waiver your benefits should not be affected by your school work. However, be advised that I am not familiar with how this program works. I don't know whether you will be eligible to receive benefits beyond the maximum,until you are finished with school. You should be able to rely on your case worker and information from the UIA. If you get more definite information please share it with us on this forum.
Hi Ralph. I was fired from my job in April for violation of a last chance agreement. I have been denied due to misconduct & have appealed. I was denied a second time and appealed for a hearing. The unemployment agency told me today that they recieved my second appeal one day late. What do I do?? I have a medical condition & was going through a custody battle and my unemployment paper had gotten misplaced. I could have sworn that I mailed it on time but I guess I didn't. Can ya give me any advice on writing my letter as to why this second appeal was late? Thank you in advance for your help.
Melissa, The agency is very strict about its deadlines and the court cases make it very hard to establish good cause for missing an appeal deadline. You practically have to show that you were incapacitated and in the hospital or attending the funeral of a close relative.
Here's what the Wayne Circuit Court said i Jones v Showcase:
Good cause is not defined the the Act. MESC regulation 270 (4) lists the following: 1) newly discovered material facts which through no fault of the claimant were not available to the claimant at the time of the determination; 2) when the MESC has additional or corrected information; 3) when an administrative or clerical error has been discovered.
Regulation 2102)b and 270 and rule 109 also define good cause. Good cause under these rules includes acts of God (floods, storms or other natural disasters), reliance on a promise of work, or seeking work where a reasonable indication that work is available exists, the closing of MESC offices, physical incapacity, attendance at a funeral, incarceration or jury duty.
"RThe examples given for good cause in the MESC rules and regualtions, while not meant to be definitive or exclusive, clearly imply a situation out of the claimant's direct control. Procedural deadlines would be meaningless if claimants could bring appeals months after the expiration of time limitations simply because they have changed their minds about taking action."
Delays in delivery of mail can also constitute good cause in some circumstances. One court case ruled that the postal service taking 9 days to deliver the claimant's appeal constituted good cause for his late appeal.
Thank you Ralph. Do I have any options at this point or should I just admit that I screwed up and quit fighting??
Well, from what you said I don't think your chances are very good. However, it doesn't cost anything to have a hearing before an administrative law judge.
Hi Ralph. I found your hub tonite. An interesting read. I have a question that I haven't found on your site. I was laid off after 22 years. A half year into my UIA benefits, I turned 55 (6/1/09) and was eligible and submitted my pension settlement. I was sent a booklet from my employer in January that had 5 choices of varied Joint and Survivor Annuities, along with a Lump-Sum alternative. This information states, that the "amounts are only an estimate of what you could receive." You must make an irreversible decision from this estimate. I selected the Lump-Sum of $98,000 and actually received $91,000 and placed it in a qualified IRA plan. The new amount was explained as a revision of the factors from Dec 08 to Mar 09. We took the Lump-Sum based on lack of confidence/knowlege that the pension is properly managed. The vast reduction in the lump-sum over a 3 month period, I feel, is a confirmation of that.
I claimed thru MARVIN that I did receive a pension on 6/1/09. This raised flags at the agency with weeks in limbo. I just received a determination, citing Section 27(F) that I could have taken a pension as a monthly payment of $697.00. There will be a pro-rated reduction of my weekly benefit. This amount is the highest amount of the monthly alternatives of Joint & Survivorship presented. Remember, these were ESTIMATES, but my previous employer used it as a functional number in feedback to the UIA.
I reviewed the 27(F)in the MES act. It references a reduction of what is actually received monthly, not what I could have gotten. Your comments please?
I RECEIVED UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS FOR A PERIOD OF TIME AND MY BENEFIT PERIOD ENDED...I RECEIVED THREE EXTENSIONS AND WHEN I APPLIED FOR THE FOURTH EXTENSION THEY DENIED ME AND TOLD ME THAT I OWED THEM MONEY. IT HAS BEEN NINE WEEKS AND I HAVE HEARD NOTHING FROM THEM REGARDING MY PROTEST AND REDETERMINATION...IS IT TRUE THAT THE AGENCY HAS AN EIGHT WEEK DEADLINE TO RESPOND BEFORE THEY DEFAULT,WHICH CAUSES THE JUDGEMENT TO AUTOMATICALLY RULE IN MY FAVOR? PLEASE HELP ME!
Tameka, There may be a deadline on agency determinations, but I'm not aware of it. I'll try to do some checking and get back with you. If you can't get anything out of the UIA you might be able to get some help from your state representative or state senator in Lansing. As you might imagine the UIA is very busy (swamped) these days.
Al, I haven't handled any cases like yours. However, common sense tells me that your interpretation is correct and the Agency's is incorrect. If I were you I would appeal the case to an Administrative Law Judge hearing where the Agency's decision will be reviewed. Try to find an advocate who will research the issues carefully and help you present your case. An appeal to an ALJ or to the Board of Review wouldn't cost you anything, and the state will send you a list of claimant advocates.
Mr. Deeds, thank you for your response. I will follow your advice and provide you with the outcome.
THANK YOU SO MUCH MR. DEEDS FOR YOUR PROMPT REPLY...I'LL BE WAITING TO SEE WHAT YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT CONCERNING THE AGENCY'S DEADLINE AND DEFAULT.
Tameka, I wasn't able to find any reference to an 8-week deadline or default by the agency other than the 3-year and 6-year periods mentioned in Section (62)(a) of the statute:
"If the commission determines that a person has obtained benefits to which that person is not entitled, the commission may recover a sum equal to the amount received by one or more of the following methods: (1)deduction from benetits payable to the individual, (2)payment by the individual to the commission in cashs or (3)deduction from a tax refund payable to the individual as provided under section 30a of Act No. 122 of the Public Acts of 1941...Deduction from benefits payable to the individual shall be limited to not more than 20% of each weekly benefit check due the claimant. The commission shall not recover improperly paid benefits from an individual more than 3 years, or more than 6 years in the case of a violation of section 54(a) or ((b) or sections 54a to 54c, after the date of the receipt of the improperly paid benefits unless (1) a civil action is filed in court by the commission within the 3-year or 6-year period. (2) the individual made an intentional false statement, misrepresentation or concealment of material information to obtain the benefits, or (3) the commission issued a determination requiring restitution within the 3-year or 6-year period. Furthermore, except in a case of an intentional false statement, misrepresentation, or concealment of material information, the commission may waive recovery of an improperly paid benefit if the payment was not the fault of the individual and if repayment would be contrary to equity and good conscience."
Hi Ralph,
What are the rules for Michigan UIA for leaving a job that is "unsuitable" within 60 days. I was on the extension and accepted a position that did not disclose that I needed medical experience (it was in their job description) that I received about two weeks after I hired. I re-opened my claim and sent all pertinent information including past work history (reviews) showing that I was a stable worker in my last position and that I didn't have any medical experience. I was told in the interview process that it was not necessary but when I got into the position I found this was not true and I was exposing patients and myself to liability issues. What are my chances of getting the unemployment back? Thanks for your help. I really appreciate it.
Hi Ralph,
I'm sorry, I should have added to this that I resigned after trying to work out a lack of training issues with the company. I gave a resignation letter to the company outlining why I was resigning.
THIS IS A VERY INTERESTING SITE AS WELL AS INFORMATIVE.I HAVE A QUESTION TO ASK AND I'LL KEEP IT BRIEF.AFTER BEING FIRED FROM MY JOB I WAS DENIED MY UNEMPLOYMENT DUE TO "MISCONDUCT".I APPEALED THE DECISION AND AFTER 5 WEEKS I WAS GRANTED MY BENEFITS BUT I WAS'NT GIVEN BACKPAY FOR THOSE 5 WEEKS.WHAT DO I DO ABOUT THIS.
Mr. Kelly, the answer depends on the reason why you were denied. One common reason for such denials is failure to continue certifying (calling MARVIN). Benefits are not payable for any week or weeks for which the claimant fails to certify.
Anna, here's what the statute says about suitability
Section 29(5) In determining whether work is suitable for an individual, the commission shall consider the degree of risk involved to the individual's health, safety, and morals, the individual's physical fitness and prior training, the individual's length of unemployment and prospects for securing local work in the individual's customary occupation, and the distance of the available work from the individual's residence. Additionally, thecommission shall consider the individual's experience and prior earnings, but an unemployed individual who refuses an offer of work determined to be suitable under this section shall be denied benefits if the pay rate for that work is at least 70% of the gross pay rate he or she received immediately before becoming unemployed.
and
29(1)(a) [An individual is disqualified from benefits if he or she:
(a) Left work voluntarily without good cause attributable to the employer or employing unit. An individual claiming benefits under this act has the burden of proof to establish that he or she left work involuntarily or for good cause that was attributable to the employer or employing unit. HOWEVER, IF THE INDIVIDUAL HAS AN ESTABLISHED BENEFIT YEAR IN EFFECT AND DURING THAT BENEFIT YEAR LEAVES UNSUITABLE WORK WITHING 60 DAYS AFTER THE BEGINNING OF THAT WORK, THE LEAVING DOES NOT DISQUALIFY THAT INDIVIDUAL.
COMMENT: It appears to me that the agency didn't agree that the work was unsuitable. That is, you don't get a free pass for 60 days but if you can convince the agency that the job was unsuitable and you leave withing 60 days you are eligible. After 60 days it's much harder to leave a job and get benefits. If you have some time you may want to go to the link (above on this website) to the Board of Review's Digest of Court decisions on UC and look up some cases that dealt with suitability. From what you said it sounds to me like you have a good case for unsuitability.
BUT THATS JUST THE THING. FROM THE TIME I APPLIED UP UNTIL I WAS FINALLY APPROVED, I FILED EVERY WEEK.AM I TO APPEAL THIS MATTER AS WELL.I NEVER RECIEVED A LETTER OR ANY NOTIFICATION SAYING I WAS DENIED BACKPAY, I JUST NEVER RECIEVED COMPENSATION FOR IT.
Hi Ralph,
Thank you for your help. I really appreciate it. I left this position after 30 days because I couldn't get the proper training to fulfill the qualifications of the position. I went through the proper grievance channels at the workplace. I still have a benefit year in effect. I haven't received a determination yet because it just happened. I received a form requesting information on why I resigned and I sent them a lot of documentation. I sent them documentation showing that the position required medical training too. I'm hoping that will help make the determination. Thanks again for your help. I really think you have a great site and you help people with your expertise.
Sounds to me like you stand a good chance of convincing an administrative law judge that your job was unsuitable. If the redetermination goes against you I recommend you appeal to an administrative law judge hearing.
Hi Ralph,
Thank you so much for your help. I was feeling rather alone about this and will appeal it if it does go against me. I really appreciate your experience and insight.
can I attend college while receiving unemployment benefits in Michigan?
There is no black or white answer to this question. Under certain circumstances it's possible to attend college while receiving unemployment compensation. You must be able to convince the unemployment agency that you are available and seeking work and willing to adjust your academic schedule, if necessary to accept an offer of suitable employment.
Also, you may be able to get a waiver of availability for certain types of training. I'm not sure what the details and procedures are for this.
Hi Ralph, I actually have a question. I live in fl and after 11 and a half years i was terminated from my job. I was initially accused of theft and was put through rigorous interogation and humiliation by a loss prevention specialist. The allegation was totally false and by the end of the interview, could not be proven. I was understandably upset and asked if i was fired, I was told that a decision had to be made regarding my job and to call my store manager in 24 hours. It actually became 48 hours before I was told that i was terminated. I assume that because the false allegations against me could not be substaniated, they in turn fired me for misconduct. What do you think my chances of winning bennefits are? Thanks in advance for any and all info that you can provide.
It's hard for me to tell without reading the case file and seeing what the company is saying. In Michigan and I'm sure in Florida the burden is on the employer to prove a charge of misconduct. The definition of misconduct in Michigan is "wanton or wilful disregard of the employer's interest," either in a single serious incident or in accumulated minor instances (e.g. habitual absenteeism or tardiness). Some retail establishments have a rather broad and inclusive definition of theft covering actions which may or may not constitute theft under the law. Sorry I can't be more specific. You have nothing to lose by filing for benefits and appealing if you get an adverse determination from the unemployment agency. Good luck.
....
tkowens, did you have a question or comment?
Hello Mr. Deeds. I first want to say that I have asked a question or two before and you have given me great advice.
Here is my current question. I have 6 weeks of EUC left and then I am hoping to get EB after that. I am also thinking about attending college, but it is an online college. I was wondering if it is possible to get EB while attending college full time??? It is an online college so I can get on there 24/7 and still be able to seek work and hopefully soon be working.
Thanks again.
Victoria - In Michigan
I don't see why not. You have to be able to certify that you are seeking work and available for suitable work while you are taking on-line courses. Good luck!
Mr. Deeds,
I have one more quick question. When i was laid off i took a Lump Sum Distribution from my 401K plan. I am fairly sure i contributed less than half of the money in the plan. (employer contributed matching funds and profit sharing) + my contributions.
My question is do i report this to UIA? I talked to someone at UIA months ago, and told them i withdrew my 401K (claimants relations hotline), but they didn't tell me to report it and i did ask.
Looking at the new green book, it is saying something under Pensions and IRA's that if you contribute less than half you need to report it.
It also says something about if "if an employer you worked for in the base period of your claim paid you a retirement benefit......"
Does this mean that UIA just counts payments they made during your last 18 months you report earnings for or is this over the whole period of your claim stretching back to the very beginning?
Is a profit sharing contribution to your 401K considered as a retirement benefit paid by your employer (we were forced to put profit sharing in the 401k)
Thank you
I've never researched the subject of 401k distributions, but I don't think a 401k distribution of your savings would affect your eligibility for unemployment compensation.
I was laid off from work in may. The location of my work closed its doors. I took this job because it was close to my home. Now they are trying to take away my benefits because they want me to work over 50 miles from my house at their other location. It isnt very reasonable for me to drive 100 miles to work for less than 25k a year. should i worry about my benefits?
If you live in Michigan, in my opinion, you should not necessarily be disqualified from benefits for declining an offer of a job 50 miles away from your home. However, distance is a bit of a gray area as you can see from the case cited below. As far as I know there is no automatic distance limit for travel to work.
The appellate court ruled in Gilliam v. Chrysler Corp 72 Mich App 538 (1976):
"In determining the suitability of offered work, the loss of recall rights to local work must be considered. Further, a job is not automatically suitable because the distance is less than 45 miles.
"In determining whether distance makes a job offer unsuitable the commission, referee and appeal board should consider where relevant, the age and health of the individual employee, the hours during which travel will be required, the time involved in traveling, traffic conditions and availability and reliability of a means of transportation, as well as other facts which may relate to the distance factor and its bearing upon the suitability of the employment.
And in Korhonen v Brown and Winckler the Ingham appellate court held that the claimant who lived in Northville was not disqualified for refusing an offer of work in Lansing, 75 miles away.
thank you so much for your incite!
Good luck!
Hi Ralph, I was let go from my company back in April and have been on severance and will continue to be on severance till Nov. I have been notified today that the company that let me go now wants to hire me through a temp agency for about 60 days. My question is if I take the temp position and once that position is over it will be about the time for me to file for unemployment---who would I file the unemployment against--my original company of 16 years or the temp agency of 60 days? I am scared that when I file, UIA will base my wages off the temp job (which is paying much less). I am just wondering if it is even worth it to work as a temp, since I am still on severance - or if I will mess up any claim on unemployment.
I'm not sure of the answer to your question. I'll try to do some research tomorrow or over the weekend.
[If you are hired through or by a temp agency you must be sure to contact the agency promptly when your assignment comes to an end or you will be treated under the statute as a quit and ineligible for benefits. Many temp agencies disqualify people for failing to contact them and inform them their assignment has ended even though they are fully aware the assignment has come to an end. Just one of their little tricks and traps.]
Pam, I don't believe that working 60 days for a temp agency at a lower rate would affect your benefits. Here's what the agency says about calculating benefit amounts:
"Benefit Year
"If the UA determines that the worker had enough wages to set up a claim, then benefits on that claim are payable during the 52-week period that usually begins the week the worker files the claim.
"Weekly Benefity Amount
"The UA will find the calendar quarter in the base period (the first 4 of the last 5 completed calendar quarters) in which the worker had the highest wages. This wage amount is then multiplied by 4.1% (.041). To that result, $6 will be added for each dependent allowed, up to 5 dependents. the result will be the worker's weekly benefit amount. However, the amount may not exceed $362."
One note of caution, however: If the temp agency offered you another assignment at another employer after you completed the 60 days at your former employer, and you declined that offer, the temp agency and your former employer might be tempted to contest your eligitility because you "declined an offer of suitable employment." Although an offer at at a significantly lower wage might not have been suitable had you not accepted the 60-day assignment, it might be considered suitable by virtue of the fact that you accepted and worked at the lower rate for 60 days. So far as I know this is a gray area. I'm unable to predict whether either employer would protest your eligibility or how the agency would rule if they did. In my opinion, suitability should be based on your normal earnings at your former employer, not your earnings for 60 days at the temp agency.
The case nearest your situation is Jarvis (Peoples State Bank, 1982 Br 78618 (B81 08578).
BOARD OF REVIEW HOLDING: A claimant may refuse an offer of work without disqualification if acceptance of the offered work would result in an immediate and substantial economic loss.
FACTS: Claimant worked for the employer as a full-time bank teller for eight years. Her full-time status entitled her to a package of fringe benefits, including paid vacation, medical insurance, sick pay and a pension plan. As a result of a merger and consolidation of offices, claimant's full-time position was eliminated. While still on the employer's payroll she was offered a part-time position without fringe benefits, which she refused.
DECISION: Claimant is not disqualified for refusal of work.
RATIONALE: When evaluating a refusal of work situation, the suitability of the work, in light of various factors, including prior earnings, must be considered. "[The claimant was not yet unemployed when she refused the offer of part-time work. She was under no duty to bury her financial sights instantaneously. We hold that the offered work was unsuitable. By excluding paid vacations, medical insurance, life insurance, sick leave and participation in a pension plan, the offer was immediately and substantially below the claimant's prior earnings."
[Note: The longer you are out of work, the lower the Agency's definition of suitability becomes. ]
I worked for the president of a medical recruiting agency. On several occasions, she publicly accused me of stealing from her, using her credit card for personal use, making personal, out of state phone calls on company phones and lying to her. Although each accusation proved to be false, she never apologized. She also gossiped to other employees about me, made fun of my voice, my clothing (I dressed very professionally), my hair. She micro-managed everything I did ("why are you putting the paper in the copier that way?"). Needless to say, I was a nervous wreck. If I could have documented this behavior, would I have been eligible for unemployment if I had quit? Is there someone I could have complained to? She was the owner of the company.
The basic rule is that a reasonable person finds another job before resigning the one he or she has. There are a number of clear exceptions: uncorrected unsafe working conditions, being asked to do something dishonest or illegal, sexual harassment, discrimination because of race, religion, etc. In most cases the employee is expected to complain and give the employer a chance to correct the problem. In your case this requirement would not apply because the person who is harassing you is the owner.
My assessment of your case, based on what you've said, is that your case is in a gray area. For me you have had ample cause attributable to your employer for quitting. Proving that to an administrative law judge might be difficult, especially if your boss comes to the hearing and doesn't tell the truth. Good luck.
Dear Mr. Deeds, My wife has been collecting umemployment for about 9 months now. She has been applying for jobs but she is having no luck. I want her to go back to school. She is interested in being a phlebotomist. It is a six week program, and then another six weeks of internship with no pay. Can she still collect unemployment and go to school? Also is there any assistance she can recieve?
Mike, I'm not completely up to speed on the effect of going to school on eligibility for benefits. There are procedures for obtaining advance approval for taking certain courses and getting a waiver of availability for and seeking work. Beyond that there are court cases which say that attending classes does not automatically disqualify a claimant from benefits so long as they certify that they are continuing to seek work and are willing to accept a job offer and adjust their class schedule around their work hours. This is a bit of a gray area. I believe there is information on the UIA website linked above on how to get approval for training without losing eligibility.
Mike here's an item on training from an article in the Detroit News 8-31-09 which may be of interest to you.
The waiting lines are mounting for job training and tuition under the state's 2-year-old No Worker Left Behind program because there are more applicants than dollars.
While applications are being processed across most of the state, there are waiting lists in western Wayne and Monroe counties, said Andy Levin, deputy director of the Department of Energy, Labor and Economic Growth. Most of the program is financed with federal grant money, and the state applied to the U.S. Department of Labor for $58 million in late June to address the need, Levin said. Officials are waiting for an answer.
People will be put into training as money becomes available, he added.
One contractor in southeastern Michigan who is handling No Worker Left Behind benefit requests erroneously sent e-mails to applicants earlier this month saying there is no money for the program, Levin said. He added that the Southeast Michigan Community Alliance, which is running the program in Wayne and Monroe counties, neglected to set up a waiting list.
"We're not sure why that happened, but it has been taken care of," he said.
Under the program, laid-off workers can get up to $10,000 for two years of tuition at a community college, four-year university or other approved training program. About 88,000 people have enrolled, Gov. Jennifer Granholm has said.
hi. i have been on unemployment for a few months and cannot find work. so i signed up for no worker left behind and they gave me a date of october14th.. school started last week. so i decided to apply for fafsa on my own and got awarded. i started school and have an appointment later this week with a mich works agent to file my waiver info. i am supposed to call marvin in the morning and do not know how i should answer the question of recieving money or starting school??? i have not recieved aanymoney but i dontknow if they consider the pell for my classes money? and if i havent been to but 1 class i know that doesnt count of the full time i am scheduled for yet. so would it be wrong to say no to these questions just this week till i get the waiver at the end of the week? i dont want to get in trouble but i also dont want to get my benefit held up! please help with advise!!! thank you kindly
Monique, I'm sorry but I don't know the answer to your questions. Perhaps you could get some help from the people at No Worker Left Behind, Michigan Works or one of the UIA phone lines if you can get through. Sorry I can't be of more help. Good luck!
LOW WAGE WORKERS OFTEN CHEATED BY EMPLOYERS, STUDY SAYS
By STEVEN GREENHOUSE
Published: September 1, 2009
Low-wage workers are routinely denied proper overtime pay and are often paid less than the minimum wage, according to a new study based on a survey of workers in New York, Los Angeles and Chicago.
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Less Than the MinimumGraphic
Less Than the Minimum
The study, the most comprehensive examination of wage-law violations in a decade, also found that 68 percent of the workers interviewed had experienced at least one pay-related violation in the previous work week.
“We were all surprised by the high prevalence rate,” said Ruth Milkman, one of the study’s authors and a sociology professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, and the City University of New York. The study, to be released on Wednesday, was financed by the Ford, Joyce, Haynes and Russell Sage Foundations.
In surveying 4,387 workers in various low-wage industries, including apparel manufacturing, child care and discount retailing, the researchers found that the typical worker had lost $51 the previous week through wage violations, out of average weekly earnings of $339. That translates into a 15 percent loss in pay.
The researchers said one of the most surprising findings was how successful low-wage employers were in pressuring workers not to file for workers’ compensation. Only 8 percent of those who suffered serious injuries on the job filed for compensation to pay for medical care and missed days at work stemming from those injuries.
“The conventional wisdom has been that to the extent there were violations, it was confined to a few rogue employers or to especially disadvantaged workers, like undocumented immigrants,” said Nik Theodore, an author of the study and a professor of urban planning and policy at the University of Illinois, Chicago. “What our study shows is that this is a widespread phenomenon across the low-wage labor market in the United States.”
According to the study, 39 percent of those surveyed were illegal immigrants, 31 percent legal immigrants and 30 percent native-born Americans.
The study found that 26 percent of the workers had been paid less than the minimum wage the week before being surveyed and that one in seven had worked off the clock the previous week. In addition, 76 percent of those who had worked overtime the week before were not paid their proper overtime, the researchers found.
The new study, “Broken Laws, Unprotected Workers,” was conducted in the first half of 2008, before the brunt of the recession hit. The median wage of the workers surveyed was $8.02 an hour — supervisors were not surveyed — with more than three-quarters of those interviewed earning less than $10 an hour. When the survey was conducted, the minimum wage was $7.15 in New York State, $7.50 in Illinois and $8 in California.
Labor Secretary Hilda L. Solis responded to the report with an e-mail statement, saying, “There is no excuse for the disregard of federal labor standards — especially those designed to protect the neediest among us.” Ms. Solis said she was in the process of hiring 250 more wage-and-hour investigators. “Today’s report clearly shows we still have a major task before us,” she said.
The study’s authors noted that many low-wage employers comply with wage and labor laws. The National Federation of Independent Business, which represents small-business owners, said it encouraged members “to stay in compliance with state and federal labor laws.”
But many small businesses say they are forced to violate wage laws to remain competitive.
The study found that women were far more likely to suffer minimum wage violations than men, with the highest prevalence among women who were illegal immigrants. Among American-born workers, African-Americans had a violation rate nearly triple that for whites.
“These practices are not just morally reprehensible, but they’re bad for the economy,” said Annette Bernhardt, an author of the study and policy co-director of the National Employment Law Project. “When unscrupulous employers break the law, they’re robbing families of money to put food on the table, they’re robbing communities of spending power and they’re robbing governments of vital tax revenues.”
When the Russell Sage Foundation announced a grant to help finance the survey, it said that low-wage workers were “hard to find” for interviews and that “government compliance surveys shy away from the difficult task of measuring workplace practices beyond the standard wage, benefits and hours questions.”
The report found that 57 percent of workers sampled had not received mandatory pay documents the previous week, which are intended to help make sure pay is legal and accurate. Of workers who receive tips, 12 percent said their employer had stolen some of the tips.
One in five workers reported having lodged a complaint about wages to their employer or trying to form a union in the previous year, and 43 percent of them said they had experienced some form of illegal retaliation, like firing or suspension, the study said.
In instances when workers’ compensation should have been used, the study found, one third of workers injured on the job paid the bills for treatment out of their own pocket and 22 percent used their health insurance. Workers’ compensation insurance paid medical expenses for only 6 percent of the injured workers surveyed, the researchers found.
Dear Ralph,
I was so glad to find your website I was denied unemployment and appealed and been waiting three months for the process a lawyer recommended I contact the board of review to speed it up how do I contact them?
You can write the Board of Review at 611 West Ottawa Street, P.O. Box 30475, Lansing, Michigan 48909. Also the Board has an 800 number: 1-800-738-6372. (I'm not sure whether they will respond to telephone inquiries or not.) Also you could write to or call your state senator or representative's office for help speeding up your case. Most of state reps have people in their office who know how to contact the UIA or Board of Review about delays in decisions on cases. They are all very busy, but it seems to me that three months is a long time.
Thank you so much
If you think of it let us know if you are able to find out anything or get any help and how you got it.
Here's a link to an article in today's NYTimes about the uncounted unemployed:
Dear Mr. Deed ~ I’m so fortunate finding your website. I was a program manager with one client in auto industry. Due to the economy, the client cancelled our contract this year so my employer laid me off in June and collected unemployment in July. During this time, I went on internal interviews with my ex-employer for a purchasing position but the hiring manager told me the position is on hold. My boss told me the only position available in the company was a Receiving Attendant in Phoenix AZ making half the salary and a vague mention of becoming program manager in near future. I panicked not having a job so I accepted it in August. After accepting AZ position, my employer moved two internal candidates in the purchasing positions. With over 10yrs of experience, a Masters degree I felt I was a stronger candidate. I made a big mistake taking this job offer. Can I quit this position and get unemployment in Michigan because it’s unsuitable position? Do I have any recourse?
Carolyn, that's a tough one. Quit cases (voluntary leaving) are the hardest to win. The law presumes that a reasonable person will keep the job he or she has until finding another one UNLESS the employer does something that would cause a reasonable person to quit ("good cause attributable to the employer"). Good cause can be a substantial reduction in pay or benefits, asking the employee to do something illegal, dishonest or unsafe or other serious reasons.
Another legal requirement for eligibility for benefits when quitting is that the employee must complain about the issue and give the employer an opportunity to correct the problem BEFORE quitting. Your case would be better if you complained to your employer and gave it the opportunity to take appropriate action before quitting. Any time you resign there is a risk of losing your eligibility. However, Section 29(1)(a) of the unemployment statute provides as follows: "However, if the individual has an established benefit year in effect and during that benefit year leaves unsuitable work withing 60 days after the beginning of that work, the leaving does not disqualify the individual."
I hesitate to predict whether you would be ruled eligible or ineligible by the Unemployment Insurance Agency. I think you should be eligible because the job you accepted in Arizona appears to be unsuitable because of the substantial reduction in pay. If you decide to quit, before you do soyou should make your dissatisfaction with the pay and job assignment and your belief that you were treated unfairly because you are more qualified than the people who got the purchasing positions and see what the employer says. You would have to act quickly to be within the 60-day limit. If the agency rules against you, you should request a redetermination. And if that goes against you you should request a hearing before an administrative law judge. In the meantime you should continue to call MARVIN in accordance with the Agency's procedures. Again, I am not sure what the result will be. I was unable to find a court decision that matched your circumstances and I've not had experience with such a case. Good luck.
Mr. Deeds, Many thanks for responding quickly. I realize I have a small window to be reinstated with the 60 day limit. I started the position in AZ on August 1st I stopped calling Marvin. Will this change my eligibility?
Who should I contact to be reinstated? I don't have any of my paperwork with me in AZ and unable to get online with MARVIN.
You may be able to find the answer on the UIA website. It's hard to get through on the telephone lines. Perhaps the Internet would work. I'm not sure. (I've never done it.)
Rep. Levin Calls for Extension of Unemployment Benefits
Lawmakers return to Washington from their districts this week. One of the top priorities for the House and Senate will be to extend federal unemployment insurance benefits to hard-hit states like Michigan. Rep. Levin and 22 other members of the House have introduced legislation to provide for another 13 weeks in states with unemployment over 9 percent.
In a recent interview with the Detroit News, Rep. Levin noted that we have a historically high number of people who are out of work and running out of unemployment benefits. “The prediction is that if we don’t act, about 100,000 Michiganders are going to exhaust their benefits by the end of the year. And that figure nationally is 1.5 million people.... There are more people who have been unemployed for longer than six months in this recession than at any time since when they first calculated that in 1948,” said Rep. Levin.
Click here to read the Detroit News Article entire interview. The article also featured a Question and Answer segment with Rep. Levin providing the supporting side here and James Sherk providing the opposing side here.
Here's quite a good article with tips for job interviews-
"Subtle Clues Can Tell An Interviewer 'Pick Me' by Phyllis Korkki in the NY Times 9-13-09.
Detroit News Editorial September 14, 2009
Editorial: Congress should continue jobless benefits
Congress should continue unemployment benefits and provide relief on crippling taxes
Nearly 100,000 Michigan residents stand to lose their unemployment benefits at year's end. Congress is working to extend those benefits and should do so. But Michigan businesses also have an unemployment crisis. They face hundreds of millions of dollars in new unemployment taxes and penalties in the next few years that could damage their recovery and slow the hiring of new workers.
It's a vicious circle that only Congress can fix.
Normally, laid-off workers are entitled to 26 weeks of unemployment insurance. The cost of this insurance is covered by a tax levied by the state on all firms. Because of the severity of this recession, Congress has adopted special unemployment benefits covered from the federal treasury for workers. Together, employer-paid and federal benefits now add up to 79 weeks of unemployment coverage.
In addition, the federal government added $25 per week to the jobless pay determined by each state. The $25 in extra pay expires in June, while a portion of the federal unemployment benefits ends next year also.
Separate congressional bills, one in the House supported by U.S. Rep. Sander Levin, D-Royal Oak, and one in the Senate backed by Michigan Democrats Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow, would add 13 weeks to the total jobless pay available, continue the earlier extensions through all of 2010 and maintain the additional $25 in jobless pay through the balance of 2010 as well.
The benefits should be extended. Michigan families are struggling, and the unemployment benefits could well be the only thing staving off economic disaster for them.
Michigan businesses also face a crisis. Because the state has depleted its unemployment fund, it has been borrowing from the federal government. Michigan now owes $2.5 billion, exceeded only by California's debt at $3.3 billion. Beginning next year, Michigan firms will have to pay penalty taxes to reduce the federal loan. The additional unemployment taxes will be $74 million in 2010, $158 million in 2011 and $206 million in 2012.
This could have a devastating effect on hiring because these taxes are levied against the salaries companies pay each worker. They are thus a huge disincentive to putting more people on the payroll.
If Congress is interested in an economic stimulus that could really reduce unemployment, it will offer some sort of relief on this loan. These proposals are much more likely to allow workers to keep their homes and companies to recover and grow than any new pork-barrel projects floating around Congress and deserve quick action.
Hi Ralph,
If a company calls you and wants to interview you for a commission based position only, do you have to interview for it or will you be disqualified from Unemployment benefits if you don't accept the interview? Thanks.
Renetta, Declining the interview would likely be a strike against you. If you appeared for the interview and got an offer the issue would become whether the job was "suitable" or not and whether you would be justified in turning the offer down. Commission jobs are not, per se, unsuitable. It's possible that you could determine that the job was "unsuitable" as defined by the statute without going to an interview based on information already available to you. In that case if you end up in a dispute over your elibility, the burden would be on you to convince the Agency and appeals judge that the job was unsuitable, based on your prior work experience and wages and your education and training. An excessively long commute to work could also be a factor in determining unsuitablity.
Hi Ralph,
I appreciate your help on this. I wasn't sure because I've never had a commission based position before. Thanks again for your help.
Mr.Deeds
My husband was fired from his job in July for turning down work and applyed for benfits. he was denied. reason you have done this work in the past.
So he protested it.the thing is we live 110 miles one way from where he worked we didnt have the money for him to go ( hes a truck driver he wouldve needed gas money and money for food while he was out)they called at the last min.and offered him a run that wouldve only been 40% of his pay that he would normally wouldve got since protested it what do you think the out come would be he protested this a 3 weeks ago
I wrote the above question didnt sign up until after. i also wanted to add that the employer told him he needed to find away to work. we tried and finally found someone to borrow money from when he called back not even 20 mins later they told him it was to late also they never gave him any warning he has never called it or was late for work
i just hope this time its a favor on our side its tuff out there when you have kids to support
Kimmi73. In my opinion, your husband should be eligible for benefits because the job was unsuitable--the pay was too low and the distance too far. If he gets an unfavorable determination and redetermination, he should appeal it to an administrative law judge. In the meantime keep calling MARVIN to certify in accordance with UIA procedures.
Thanks im hoping the out come will be good. He just started a job Monday the 21st he wont get paid til the 9th. Now if hes eligible will he still get that back from july until recent he calls marvin again on the 28th
How long does this normally take for them to make a decssion
I'm not sure. They are very busy and appear to be taking several weeks.
What does available for work mean?
Hi I applied for umemployment benefits about 6 weeks ago so far I have qualified for benefits. I have been looking for work mostly on craigslist and Michigan works. I also have been to places and most of them have not been accepting applications and said they are not hiring. Well I heard that if you are getting unemployment your supposed to keep a record of places the places that you applied to. Is this true because I haven't been keeping track until now. So today I printed up a list of some of the places I sent my resume to on michigan works etc.
Is it bad if you haven't been keeping track of businesses that you inquired at for work or applied to online? Thanks for your help:)
I think you'll be okay although it's a good idea to keep a record documenting your job search. While you are receiving unemployment compensation the statute requires you to be "available" and "seeking" "suitable" employment. Available means that you are available to accept a job offer. Seeking means that you are looking for a job. Suitable means a job for which you are qualified based on your previous training and experience.
It is sad who valuable this information is to many people now. Well done and thank you to Ralph for making this information available and well wishes to anyone who is currently looking for work.
Thanks for your comment, Steven.
Thanks so much for your help Ralph I really appreciate it;) I was wondering how many work contacts you should have per week you claim. The unemployment book doesn't give a specific amount. Some days I will send out three resumes and then the next day none because I don't always have access to the internet phone etc. I heard from a friend that they want you to have a contact each day. So I was wondering what the exact number per week or day was
Also I received a determinatinon in the mail that said I qualified for unemployment because I was fired for a violation of company policy and not gross misconduct. It said my employer didn't provide evidence to suggest misconduct. My boss always tries to get out of paying unemployment and he always fights everyone to make it hard for them. How long do you think it will take me to find out if he's trying to fight me or not. The paper was mailed out Septemper 3 and it will be 30 days around Oct 3. But still I heard it can take weeks or months to find out if a former employer is trying to fight your claim. Is their a way I could find out sooner if he wrote a letter of protest or not.
also my friend Odessa was getting unemployment from him for a couple months then all of a sudden she got a letter in the mail saying she was disqualifed because my boss lied and said she quit and wasn't fired. He also lied about other things so I'm paranoid that the same thing will happen to me:( Well thanks for your help I love your site:)
Jess, you should find out within a month or two whether your employer requested a redetermination. If the redetermination is not in your favor you should request a hearing before an administrative law judge. You may wait a month or so before a hearing is scheduled. In the meantime keep calling MARVIN to certify in accordance with Agency procedures until your case is settled. The administrative law judges usually issue their decisions within a week.
I'm not aware that there is a minimum number of calls or contacts required to prove you are available and seeking work. I would say whatever seems reasonable. And make notes in a log notebook every time you make a contact. You could even clip newspaper want ads that you called.
If Odessa didn't quit she should request a redetermination and, if necessary a hearing before an administrative law judge. In the meantime she should continue to certify until all appeals are settled.
NOTE: My comments are based on my experience in Michigan. Unemployment compensation procedures vary somewhat from state to state.
Good luck to you both!
Mr Deeds
I would greatly appreciate any help you can offer. I was terminated from my job of 4 years for a mistake I made. I agree, I did not use my best judgement. I was 'filling in' for the manager while she was out of town. I was the asst. manager a few years before but did not hold any sort of title. I knew the paperwork and how to do the banking so I was trying to give my new boss a break. Long story short, my vehicle broke down and I locked the deposit in the trunk of my car. The deposit(from Sat and sun) did not make it to the bank until Monday afternoon. There was no issue of theft, the deposit DID make it in its entirety. The owner's son (Im not sure of his title, but he's very involved in the business) told my manager to write me up and forget about it. I worked the next 2 days. When the owner decided to make a visit to the store, he asked why I hadn't been terminated and if the manager wanted to keep her job, she would have to terminate me immediately. I recieved 2 inquiry forms before I was awarded a determination (It took nearly 9 weeks to receieve any benefits) and I told the complete truth and also pointed out, if the owner was so concerned, why was I allowed to work 2 additional days? I was awarded benefits 6/17/2009. It is now 9/28/2009 and I recieved 2 letters in the mail, both Notice of Restitution.
One says
"xxx Timely protested the determination issued 6/17/2009. You were discharged for failure to take a 5000.00 deposit to the bank or lock it in the safe overnight. Your car broke down and you lock the deposit in the trunk of your car and did not make an attempt to contact the manager. Your actions was a disregard of the employers interest. You are disqualified under sec 29 (1) (b) of the MES act. The determination is reversed. Restitution is due." and also talks about a rework requirement. "Claimant must pay to the agency restitution in the amount of 3979.00 Under 62A"
The second letter, which was issued the same day and has all the same numbers, states this.
"
You were paid federal additional compensation payments of 25.00 effective w/e 5/2/09 based on benefits paid to you under the unemployment insurance (UI) unemployment compensation program. You were not entitled to recieve these payments, therefore, additional restitution is required under section 62 of the MES act.
Claiment is not disqualified for benefits RE: Misrepresentation, None Found.
It is redetermined that claiment did not intentionally make a flase statement or misrepresentation or conceal material information in order to obtain benefits to which not entitled. Caliment must pay the agency (500.00) under section 62a.
I am so absolutely confused on what these mean, do I owe both of these, or do they counteract each other? Why am I just hearing this now? What is my next couse of action, and do I have a chance of losing a case? I looked up the law as best I could and found that "an isolated case of bad judgement or negligence, then the worker will not be disqualified from recieveing unemployment benefits. Could you please help? Thank you very much.
It's hard to tell what happened without reading your case file. It sounds to me as if the Unemployment Insurance Agency's left hand didn't know what it's right hand was doing. Keep calling MARVIN (Michigan) and certifying in accordance with Agency procedures. Call the agency as requested and try to get the restitution matter straightened out. I don't believe you owe any restitution under Section 62(a) because the redetermination found that you were not guilty of misconduct because there was no intent on your part to disregard the interest of your employer and as well because your failure to make a timely deposit was an isolated incident due to circumstances beyond your control. You may wish to go to one of the Agency's Problem Resolution Offices to discuss the matter face-to-face with a representative of the Agency. The locations of the offices can be found on the Agency's website linked above. Good luck!
I spoke to the UA today and found out bad news. The letters indicate that, while I was not disqualified for misrepresentation, I still owe the original restitution and also the 500.00 for the economic stimulus payments. I sent my appeal today, but the lady said it would take another 6 to 8 weeks for a redetermination. And THEN I may get an advocate. This hardly seems fair, and a complete disregard for the people this agency is intended to help. So while I become homeless because my A** H*** former employer wants to be cheap, even though he knows he is in the wrong, there is not a single thing I can do about it. I think you should be able to hold the employer responsible in cases like this. Or even the person who makes such an obvious mistake. For someone like myself, a 23 year old with no family left able to help me out, who lost her place to live the FIRST time I had to wait 9 weeks for any money, and has been staying with a friend who can no longer afford to let me stay here..I can't see how there are no laws in place to protect people like me. I've worked since I was 15. People in prison have more protection and rights than I do. Sorry, just wanted to share my feelings. Thank you very much for your information Ralph, you are very helpful for alot of people.
Kayleigh, you have my sympathy but I don't have any ideas other than possibly contacting your state representative or senator's office and asking for their help. Most of them have somebody in the office who knows who to call in the Unemployment Agency about cases like yours. Also, it's good for them to hear first hand about what's wrong with the system. In defense of the UIA, they are the busiest they've been in a long time, perhaps ever, and they just don't have the manpower to keep up with the load. Don't forget to keep calling MARVIN to certify until your case has been settled.
Good luck!
I have a question about the new 13 week extention that they were trying to pass but failed recently. I am unemployed in Michigan and my EUC will run out in early 2010 and then I will collect the 20 weeks of EB if I can't find work. This new 13 week extention that was talked about but failed to pass the senate will add 13 weeks onto the 20 weeks of EB? Is there some sort of date that you would have to sign up by in order to receive these extra weeks? My 20 weeks of EB would run out during the first week of June 2010 or so. Thanks
I'm not sure of the answer. I'm pretty sure the Unemployment Insurance Agency will automatically notify you of any extended benefits to which you are entitled. Sorry I can't provide a more definite answer.
THANK YOU MR.DEEDS!!!! I have been following this hub for over a year and had followed your advice on appealing to the Board of Review. After 8 months of waiting,I finally rec'd a decision and they reversed the ALJ's decision! I had also taken your advice on contacting my State Rep. to help with the time frame and they tried but were no help. Now will I receive all those weeks of unemployment that I have called into Marvin and how long should that take to receive my back pay of benefits?
I'm not sure how long it will take. Not more than a couple of weeks is my best guess.
Hi, I just received a letter from TX unemployment stating I have been disqualified for 6 weeks b/c I quit my job to move with my spouse (within TX but 5 hours from my position). It says I can apply for benefits again when my 6 week disqualification has ended. I'm confused. Does this mean I will receive benefits after 6 weeks, or I might receive benefits after 6 weeks. Will I have to go through the whole application process again? Or just keep requesting payments every 2 weeks even though I'm not receiving anything? I'm not sure what I need to do...
My knowledge of unemployment compensation law is based on my experience in Michigan. So, I'm sorry I'm not able to answer your question. You should try to get in touch with somebody in the Texas unemployment insurance agency.
Good luck.
Hi Ralph, back in August I had to go an ALJ hearing against my ex-employer, who was appealing by benefits. My advocate (whom you referred) and I won the decision.
The ALJ hearing was very one-sided, and the ALJ even seemed annoyed that my employer was fighting me over this. I received the decision the very next day.
I received a notice last week that my ex-employer is now appealing the decision to the Board of Review. How concerned should I be over this, and should I take any action? My advocate has not contacted me about it, even though, according to the notice, a transcript was mailed to him.
-Jason
Without reading the decision it's hard to say how concerned you should be. The Board, more often than not, does not reverse ALJ decisions. Some ALJs have better batting averages with the Board of Review than others. You may want to discuss this with your advocate after he's had a chance to read the transcript. (However, the Advocacy program no longer pays for work on appeals.)
Hi Mr Deeds: I sent you an email about my situation a few weeks ago. You said mine it tough case cause quitting (voluntary leaving) are the hardest to win. Well I quit my job within 60 calendar days so I attempt to requalify for unemployment benefits. UIA sent me a form to complete. Below are my answers:
Responses to questions:
1) What was the last day that you worked? 9/28/09
2) Did you quit due to dissatisfaction with job? The position was "unsuitable work" primarily due to location and substantial reduction in pay. I went there to try the job hoping there would be another opportunity within the company. I would otherwise turn down this type of job because my qualifications, earning ability, and the like. Furthermore, this position was unfit while attempting to obtain employment commensurate with my educational and professional career objectives.
3) Did you quit due to dissatisfaction with wages? Yes, it was a substantial reduction, a forty-five (45) percent decrease in wages.
4) Did you quit to dissatisfaction with hours? No
5) Did you try to resolve your problem prior to leaving? Explain how, and what were the results? I met numerous times with my boss about my situation so to give my ex-employer an opportunity to correct the problem before quitting. I made my dissatisfaction with the pay, job assignment and being treated unfairly known to management as well.
6) Provide any addition facts regarding this separation. Before accepting the storeroom attendant position, I had two internal interviews for a corporate strategic purchasing position in April. I received excellent feedback from VP of Supply Chain on both interviews relating to my experience and qualifications. However, couple weeks later he informed me the position was on hold to due the economy. After accepting the attendant position, my ex-employer moved an internal candidate to position I interviewed for. To my dismay the ex-employer filled this position with a candidate with no corporate purchasing experience nor did this person have an advanced education like me. With over 10 years of experience, a Masters degree in Finance I felt I was the stronger candidate. I was disconcerted when my ex-employer never informed me the position was opened again. I believe I was treated unfairly since I was more qualified than the other candidate.
Do I need to add or delete anything to support my claim? Do I have too much information? Your comments are greatly appreciated.
Many thanks,
Carolyn
Your answers sound pretty good to me. Good luck.
Thanks for the reply Ralph. What should I do in the event that I can't contact my advocate? I called him a few days ago and he has not returned my call. I fully understand that this case is no longer his responsibility, and that he has no obligation in the matter. Is there anything I can do on my own?
-Jason
The Advocacy Program no longer covers appeals of ALJ hearings. I would keep calling your advocate. He should at least be willing to mail you his copy of the transcript. And he should be able to advise you on whether you should send a statement on your side of the case to the Board of Review. Usually that's not necessary. He might offer to write a statement for you for a fee. He would not receive any compensation from the Agency.
The Board of Review bases its decision on a review of the transcript and any exhibits. ALJ decisions are reversed by the Board of Review infrequently.
When you say that the Board of Review "reviews the transcript", you're talking about the recording of the ALJ hearing, correct?
Correct. When an ALJ decision is appealed by either party the tape recording of the hearing is transcribed by a typist and a paper copy is sent to both parties and to the Board of Review. The Board of Review also gets copies of the entire case file and any exhibits entered into the record by either party at the hearing.
Editorial NY Times 10-17-09
The Unemployed Wait
Published: October 16, 2009
More than a million jobless Americans are in danger of losing benefits by the end of the year unless Congress passes an extension of unemployment insurance. The House has acted, but the Senate, which has a better bill, has been bogged down by obstruction from Republicans. In these extraordinarily hard times, Congress should extend this vital safety net without further delay.
Skip to next paragraph
Related
Times Topics: Unemployment Insurance
Unemployment insurance, one of the great legacies of the New Deal, is intended to provide laid-off workers with an income while they look for their next job. With the unemployment rate at nearly 10 percent nationally — and at 10.3 percent in New York City — it has been hard to line up that next job. The Department of Labor recently reported that there were more than six people looking for every opening.
There are now more than five million Americans — roughly one-third of the unemployed — who have been out of work for six months or longer, according to the National Employment Law Project, a record since data was first recorded in 1948.
Benefits vary by state, but most cut off benefits after 26 weeks. Congress has extended benefits several times, most recently in February, but for many workers they are again running out.
The Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, and other Democrats have introduced a bill that would extend unemployment insurance by up to an additional 14 weeks in all 50 states, with another six weeks for states with a jobless rate above 8.5 percent. It is an improvement on a bill passed by the House, which would extend benefits only in states with unemployment above 8.5 percent.
February’s extension, which included a $25-a-week increase in benefits, kept 800,000 people out of poverty, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. Putting more money in the pockets of the unemployed provided much-needed stimulus for the entire economy.
Every day that the Republicans continue to block an extension — fighting over amendments to the bill or delaying a vote — means thousands more Americans pushed closer to the edge of despair.
Next Article in Opinion (5 of 25) » A version of this article appeared in print on October 17, 2009, on page A18 of the New York edition.
Ralph, I continue to be impressed. Florida just hit 11% unemployment. Nice work!
I find site to be very interesting, very informative and exposing the garbage that the state of Michigan is putting people through. I would like to add my two cent from my personal experience with UIA and a Temp Agency. In 6/2007 I was laid off my job of 7 years, I have worked my entire life 20+ years and only applied for unemployment 1 time for about 1 month before getting another job. I have been registered as well has work with severally temp agency through out my 20 year career, (you know they call you when a assignment that fits you qualification becomes available or you call them to see if they have any work available that fits your qualification).
QUAILFICATION being the operative word, anyways, after getting laid off in June of 2007, I was receiving unemployment for 6 month and then it ended, in Dec 2007, so from Jan 2008 through May 2008 I worked for 3 different temp agencies, one of them I had been registered with for 9 years and I worked for this agency on an assignment for 2 months and the assignment ended as temp jobs do…I called and called and called for weeks seeking another assignment, I was told nothing was available that fit my QUAILFICATION. Then I was called by another temp agency for another job, which I accepted, it lasted 2 months, and then ended, I called and called and called for another assignment and I was told nothing was available that fit my QUAILIFACTION. Yet again, I get another assignment with another temp agency, which lasted about 1 month and half and the assignment ended, again I called and called and called and was told no work was avail that fit my QUAILFICATION.
So here I am in May 2008 no job, no unemployment and I can not open a new UIA case until July 2008, because I have a benefit year already in effect. July 2008, George Bush passes the emergency unemployment act, and to be eligible you have to have had a benefit year in effect from 6/2007 which I did and I received a letter from UIA indicating that I was eligible……so I call UIA to apply for my emergency unemployment entitlement, I was told by a representative at UIA, that I had to open a new case because I had enough work credits, from the previous year, with the temp agencies, and my former employer (the one that had laid me off after 7 years). So on the telephone the UIA rep had all the information pertaining to my work history and ask me categorically why I wasn’t working at each job and my response was: no work available for the temp agencies and of course I was laid off of the job that I had for 7 years……my unemployment was approved and I could see my way out of the mess I was in…
October 2008, I receive 3 letter in the mail from UIA, each one represented each Temp agency that I have mentioned above stating the following: one agency said I quit to take another job (a LIE); one agency said I was fired (a LIE); and one agency said that they have been trying to call me for a job, but my phone was disconnect (a LIE). I am now DISQUIALIFIED FOR my UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS and cut off, without UIA even hearing my side of the story, oh, by the way now I own UIA one thousand dollars. Two of the Temp agencies was found liable (the one that said I was fired and the one that said I quit to take another job) however the one that said that my phone was disconnect was vindicated (even though I proved they lied with my telephone records) even though I had called MAVIN on one of the days that my phone was supposed to be disconnect. I lost and they won, about one month later this same Temp agency, calls me for a job, I am desperate and in no position to turn down any job, even though I am NOT QUAILIFIED, and it is work that I have never done before I take the job, 10 days later the engine in my car goes out while at the assignment. The assignment is 30 miles in other city from my home, it start at 5pm and ends at 11:30pm no public transportation is available for my to get home in the middle of the night, so I called the temp agency next morning and ask for a change in the time or another assignment, I was told that wasn’t an opinion for me, I told them that the following Friday would be my last day its Tuesday, the girl at the temp agency say’s ok we hang up the phone and 2 minutes later another girl at the temp agency calls me back and tells me that I don’t have to come back at all.
I get home sent a email to the first girl clarifying the conversation that we had, the next morning I call UIA tell them what happen, they tell me its ok and put me back on unemployment (remember they cut me off in October 2008) for this Temp agency, UIA sent me a ton of paper work asking me one hundred question about the incident with my car engine and me letting the temp agency no in advance and in a reasonable time frame (which I did) I filled paper out send it back and I am off the hook (NOT).
March 2009, I get a letter from UIA telling me I am DISQUIALIFIED FOR QUITING THE TEMP JOB in December 2008, May 2009 the ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE rules in the Temp agency favor, August 29, 2009 at board of review level, one board member agrees with the ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE, one board member agrees with me, and one board member agrees with the ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE, but states that the Michigan Unemployment law; 421.29 states the following; “that if an individual has an established benefit year in effect and during that benefit year leaves unsuitable work within 60 days after the beginning of that work the leaving does not disqualify the individual”, that under this law I may be eligible and that she would consider remand my case for a rehearing, as of today 10/23/2009 I am still waiting for my rehearing. By the way, if I lose this case I will own the UIA $4,000 + 1,000= 5,000 and the only way I am re-eligible for unemployment benefits again I have to rework making $4,000….I hope this help some of your readers…
Oh, I forgot in May 2009(while being cut off from my unemployment benefits) UIA make's a mistake and put $25(the raised that all unemployment receipts got) on my debit card, which I thought was money I had left on the card....September 2009 I receive a letter from UIA stating that I own them $25 so now if I lose this case I own them $4000+$1000+$25 for a grand total of $5025 WTF
Candy, thanks for telling us your story. Many temp agencies, especially the small ones, will do almost anything to keep laid off employees from collecting unemployment benefits against their accounts. I've never seen a sleazy case from the big temp firms like Kelly or Manpower. The current provision in the statute requiring employees to report within 7 days after the end of an assignment trips up a lot of people. It was inserted into the act during the Engler administration at the request of the temp agencies. It is very unfair to claimants and should be eliminated or amended.
Section 421.29-Disqualification from benefits.
(l) Was employed by a temporary help firm, which as used in this section means an employer whose primary business is to provide a client with the temporary services of 1 or more individuals under contract with the employer, to perform services for a client of that firm if each of the following conditions is met:
(i) The temporary help firm provided the employee with a written notice before the employee began performing services for the client stating in substance both of the following:
(A) That within 7 days after completing services for a client of the temporary help firm, the employee is under a duty to notify the temporary help firm of the completion of those services.
(B) That a failure to provide the temporary help firm with notice of the employee's completion of services pursuant to sub-subparagraph (A) constitutes a voluntary quit that will affect the employee's eligibility for unemployment compensation should the employee seek unemployment compensation following completion of those services.
(ii) The employee did not provide the temporary help firm with notice that the employee had completed his or her services for the client within 7 days after completion of his or her services for the client.
i) The temporary help firm provided the employee with a written notice before the employee began performing services for the client stating in substance both of the following:
(A) That within 7 days after completing services for a client of the temporary help firm, the employee is under a duty to notify the temporary help firm of the completion of those services.
This law is crazy, In most cases the Temp agency calls the temp worker when a assignment fitting you qualification becomes available, because they (Temp agency are aware that you are seeking work) they (Temp agency) in sequence notifies the employee that the assignment has ended, immediately and continuously there after, the temp worker becomes aware that the current assignment will end, the temp worker is inquiry about another assignment. So this law requires the temp worker to call the temp agency to tell them that the assignment has ended? This is ridiculous, a slap in the face and deterrent for even working for a temp agency for unemployed worker, who just wants to work,
In fact the temp worker is required to put their own and their family’s livelihood on hold and in jeopardy (indefinitely) while the temp agency may or may not have another assignment for the temp worker.
I thought that the UIA, was for the people’s benefit and only had the unemployed workers best interested in mind, but these callous laws are indeed against the unemployed worker and was created with victory in mind for the temp agencies not to pay unemployment benefits to anyone, the temp agency knows that when the worker is calling everyday to be re-assigned to another job, they can tell the worker that there is no work is available (for weeks, months and years) and then when the worker fills for unemployment benefits the temp agency attempts and succeeds by coming up with all kind of innuendo’s, slandering the worker’s name, just blatant lies, because they know they can get away with denying the worker’s unemployment benefits, because the UIA has designed the laws to protect the (Temp agency) and not the workers….this is bureaucracies working hard against the unemployed workers.
You can thank John Engler and the temp agencies who put the provision in the unemployment statute as a trap to keep claimants from qualifying for unemployment benefits. In effect, it sprinkles water on a layoff and voila! turns it into a voluntary leaving.
So, the Government allowed the temp agency to devise a law that misleads and ultimately puts the unemployed worker in jeopardy of losing everything that they own, who's job is (was) it to make sure that the unemployed worker didn’t get disenfranchise (like they have) and who was at the law making table that represented the unemployed worker? How can we get our government take a second look at this law and its ramifications? How can we get this law abolished? I am all IN to spearheading this interest group.
We have people that have been working 20 years and one two month stint working with a temp agency...destroys the individuals ability to collect unemployment. We need to bring back the law that states “that you have to work at least, 60 or was it 90 days with an employer to be eligible for unemployment” the old law seems to be more favorable to the unemployed worker. And at least the unemployed worker would know that they couldn’t collect unemployment, if they didn’t worked at least 90 days at any job……
Thanks Ralph for this forum you must heaven sent because people are truly in need the advice and the information that you are providing, may GOD bless you, for helping the needy and not the greedy...
Ralph, perhaps you could clear something up for me. I have looked all over the internet trying to find the correct information. With this new 14 - 20 week extention that may or may not pass, will this bill also extend benefits past the December 2009 deadline. Currently I am on EUC Tier 1 and I will be on EUC Tier 2 in Mid November. I know that I will be able to finish out collecting on EUC Tier 2 but then due to the deadline it looks as though I will be getting 13 weeks of EB (in Michigan) instead of the 20 weeks that are available now. Then if the bill passes I will be entitled to 20 more weeks? I can't find anywhere that they are going to extend the EUC and EB benefit programs that are set to expire at the end of 2009. I guess what I am wondering is do you have any idea if there are talks to extend benefits (EUC and EB) well into 2010, because they are set to expire at the end of the year. Thanks
Matt, I'm very sorry, but I don't have the answer to your questions. I have zero experience with issues involving extended benefits except that I don't think you have to apply to receive the extended benefits, or, if you do you should be notified automatically about the extension and the eligibility requirements and procedures. I'll see what I can find on your questions and try to get back to you if I find anything. Good luck!
Mr. Deeds,
I was recently fired from my job and applied for Unemployment. In the mail I received a Monetary Determination that was correct. On the same day I also received a Request for Information Relative to Possible Ineligibility or Disqualification that seems to say I took a five month settlement from my employer. I did not take a settlement from my employer. So I filled out the form and faxed it back to the State. I suspect it will come out in my favor as it seems pretty easy to determine (tax records for one way) whether such a payment was made. My question is will the state punish (fine) the employer for making the false statement?
They could, but my impression is that the UIA seldom punishes employers or claimants unless the offense is egregious. In my experience its not uncommon for employers to furnish misleading information to the Unemployment Insurance Agency. I would not hesitate to call the matter to the attention of the Agency and the Judge if your case gets to a hearing before an administrative law judge.
Ralph the requirements to file and verify may differ from state to state. In Missouri, for example, you are given a number of employers you must contact per week, file weekly, keep a record of contacts made with employers and, finally, report in person to the local career center every four weeks.
I'm not sure what the requirements are in other states but in talking with citizens of other states, I get the impression that the process differs, sometimes substantially.
That's true. There are significant differences in procedures and requirements from state to state. My direct experience is in Michigan. Thanks for the comment!
Mr. Deeds,
I quit my job in July because they changed terms of hire. When I intially filed my unemployment claim I gave the UIA this statement when they asked for more information:
I was lied to about about the number of hours expected to work, work location, and time of day expected to work.
Issue 1, number of hours expected to work:
When offered this position I was told by Dave Sibrel, the district manager, that salary for the position was based on a 50 hour work week and that I would be expected to work 50 hours per week. On the 2nd week of my training I was told by Paula Powers, restaurant general manager and my trainer, that management trainees have to work alternating 50 and 60 hour work weeks during training only.
On 4/27/2009, after working one 50 hour week and one 60 hour week, I complained to Paula that I was not told I would have to work 60 hours per week when the job was offered to me and that I wanted to speak with the district manager, Dave Sibrel. I was never granted the opportunity to speak with Mr. Sibrel about the situation but was not asked to work more than 50 hours per week during training after that.
On 07/20/2009 I was told by Laverne Singleton, another assistant manager at the restaurant, that due to higher than expected labor all salaried managers were going to have to work 60 hours per week for the next 2 schedules. My shift that night began at 8pm on 7/20/2009 and ended at 6am on 7/21/2009. At 6am on 7/21/2009 when Paula arrived I asked her if we were really going to have to work 60 hours per week and again mentioned that I was told when hired by Dave that my salary was based on a 50 hour work week. She responded by saying, “If you're going to continue to complain about your work schedule than you'll get taken off of it.” At that point I notified her that 7/20/2009 would be my last day, gave her my keys, and left.
Issue 2, work location:
When offered this position I was told by Dave Sibrel that my training would last for 6 weeks. He said that my training would be conducted at their training restaurant, located on Merriman near Cherry Hill, and upon completion of training I would move to the location at the corner of Van Born and Telegraph, which is much closer to my house. My decision to accept this position, instead of other job offers at the time, was partly based on location.
On 5/18/2009 I was notified by Paula that I would remain at the Merriman location after training and would not be transferred to the Van Born location. I complained to her that I was told by Dave upon hire that I would be moved to the other location after training and felt like I was lied to. I asked to speak to Dave about this and Paula said, “This decision came from Sibrel, not me. You've already complained about your hours and now you want to complain about location. The last thing you want to do is piss Dave off before your training ends. Things like this happen all the time and there's nothing you can do about it.” Fearing further problems, I kept my mouth shut and stayed at that location for the duration of my employment.
Issue 3, time of day expected to work:
When offered this position I was told by Dave Sibrel that I should expect to work days and mids shifts as follows: 8am to 6pm, 9am to 7pm, 10am to 8pm, or 11am to 9pm. I knew the restaurants were a 24 hour operation and expressed concern about whether I'd have to work overnight shifts because my wife also works and we have kids at home. He said that as an AM1, my position title, I would only have to work overnight shifts during training as part of the process and that lower level managers typically work overnight shifts. He did mention that in rare circumstances it could happen but not often.
On 06/12/2009 I was informed by Paula that 2 of the overnight managers had requested some days off the next week so I was scheduled to work overnight shifts (8pm to 6am) 6/15/2009 – 6/17/2009. I understood it was a rare circumstance and worked the scheduled shifts.
On 6/19/2009 I noticed that on the following week's schedule I was again scheduled to work overnight shifts: 8pm to 6am on 6/22 and 7pm to 5am on 6/23. On 6/19 I asked Paula why I was again scheduled for these overnight shifts and she said, “I'm sorry. I thought you liked working overnight.” I told her that I didn't mind doing it the previous week to help out but would prefer days to overnights.
On 6/26/2009 I noticed that on the following week's schedule I was again scheduled to work overnight shifts: 8pm to 6am 6/29, 6/30, and 7/1. When I was viewing the schedule Paula approached me and said, “See what happens when you complain about your schedule.” Fearing further problems, I didn't complain about my schedule after that. I continued to get scheduled for overnight shifts at least twice per week for the duration of my employment. Specific dates: 7/06, 7/07, 7/13, 7/14, 7/20, 7/21.
I certify that the above statements are true and accurate.
Scott Cameron
The UIA determined that since the terms of hire were changed, specifically work location, that I had just cause to quit attributable to the employer. I started receiving benefits.
My employer protested and on 10/28/09 the UIA made a redetermination. The exact basis for redetermination is as follows:
Bravkilo Inc. protested determination issued 8-27-09. You quit this employer because you felt misinformed regarding hours required to work and location assigned. This employer states you remained employed at the location trained at and made no protests. Leaving is found to be voluntary and good cause is not found per section 29(1)(A). You are disqualified beginning 7-20-09 until completion of a $4344 rework. Determination is reversed. Restitution is due.
I am most certainly going to appeal because I know they must be lying because I definitely protested the above issues. My protests were only made to my direct supervisor though and I was wondering if this will affect my case. Your tips and opinion would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Scott
Scott, It sounds to me like you have a pretty good chance of prevailing before an administrative law judge on the basis that you had good cause for quitting attributable to your employer. I think the original determination is correct.
The complaints you made to your supervisor should suffice for that element of your case.
It would be good to emphasize at the hearing that because of your wife's job and your child care responsibilities
entitled you to rely on the committments made to you when you accepted the job.
Be sure and get to the hearing on time. Keep calling MARVIN to certify in accordance with Agency procedures.
Good luck.
Mr. Deeds,
Thanks for the quick response and advice. I felt that I had a strong case but hearing it from you certainly makes me feel better about it. I am wondering though what information my employer could have given the UIA for them to reverse their first determination. I was advised by someone else that it is possible to find out that information and was wondering how best to go about getting it. Having it would certainly better prepare me and my advocate for the hearing. Any additional advice you may have in that regard would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Scott
One reason apparently is that they told the UIA that you didn't complain. Court cases require that in most circumstances the employee must complain and give the employer a chance to correct the problem. The agency unexplainably ignored your statement that you did complain to your supervisor about the hours and the location to which you were assigned. Once you have filed an appeal for an ALJ hearing and you are notified of the location, judge and date for a hearing you are entitled to go to the hearing office and request to see your case file. Once you sign up with an advocate he or she can have a copy of your case file faxed to him.
The outcome of your case, in my opinion, is not a sure winner. It will depend on what your employer says in the hearing, your testimony and which the judge deems more credible. Voluntary leaving cases are not easy to win. The burden is on you to prove your case, that is, you will be asked to testify first through questions by your advocate and the judge and your answers. Then the employer advocate will have an opportunity to cross examine you and then offer his own testimony followed by a cross examination by your advocate. It's a good idea to find an advocate a week or so before the hearing so that he will have time to get a copy of the case file and prepare himself and you for the hearing.
Mr Deeds,
Once again, thanks for the quick response and info. I do have another question. Some of your responses in this forum mention the possibility of an employer not showing up to a hearing. If this happens, does the claimant win by default? The reason I'm asking is because this employer is not my base period employer. If what I've read on the state's UIA page is correct then they, as the most recent separting employer, are only liable for the first 2 weeks of my benefits and my previous employer, the only base period employer, is liable for the rest. I am thinking that recovering just 2 weeks of my benefits may not be worth the hassle to them. I'm obviously not going to bank on them not showing up but was just curious about the outcome should they not show up.
Thanks again,
Scott
In a case involving misconduct (where the burden of proof is on the employer), if the employer doesn't show up or request a stay the judge will rule in favor of the claimant. I'm pretty sure that many or most judges in voluntary leaving cases will require you to testify even though the employer doesn't show up. His decision will be based solely on your testimony without taking into account what information furnished by the employer to the Agency. That doesn't mean an automatic win for you.
The decision will apply to the benefits against both of your previous employers. If you lose you will likely be requested (required) to repay all the benefits you have received, not just two weeks.
I know they will make me repay all of the benefits, as of now they mentioned in their redetermination letter that I owe 10 weeks worth of benefits. My interpretation of what I read was that my most recent employer's account in this case would only be charged for the first 2 weeks of my benefits and that rest would be charged to my base period employer's account. This was the basis for my rationale that it may not be worth their time to show up at a hearing just to get a credit of 2 weeks worth of benefits.
So your saying that if they don't show up, the judge will use only my testimony and not any other information previously given by my employer? Sorry if I'm becoming a pest but just wanted clarification on that.
Thanks again,
Scott
The judge's questions to you may be influenced by information furnished by your employer. But technically because ALJ hearings are de novo (start over fresh and consider only direct, admissible evidence presented at the hearing,i.e., no hearsay, no written statements, etc.)they should not base their decision on information furnished to the UIA by an employer who does not appear to testify. Your guess is as good as mine on whether the employer will show up. I would be inclined to doubt that the employer understands how many of your benefits will be charged to his account. Most employers don't like to have any benefits charged to their account because they cause their tax rate to go up. The minimum is under 1% and the max. is 12-14%.
Thanks for all your help. I'll let you know of the outcome.
I would appreciate a report on your hearing and decision.
My husband protested about 6 weeks or so ago.. and we havent heard a thing yet Should he contact the UIA office..thanks
I would if I were him. Or go to one of the "Problem Resolutions Offices" and talk face-to-face with a human. The locations of the PRO offices are on the UIA website linked above on this site. Let me know if you can't find it.
It seems that you are the resident expert and willing to help. That is so nice to see. Perhaps you could offer some wisdom for me. I was recently terminated from my job as a conveniance store manager because of a policy that says we are to I.D. everyone that appears to be Under 27. If the policy says appears to be it seems to me they are asking for my opinion. If they are asking me to use my judgment and to me in my judgement the person did not appear to be under 27 how can I be wrong. In addition the policy Clearly states that the company they hired to do compliance checks has been hired for educational purposes. How is firing me educational. It has ben 7 weeks since I opened my claim and i still have not received a determination. every time I call they tell me I will get something in the mail.
Ohma, some questions that have a bearing on your case are the following
1. Was the event for which your were discharged a single incident or had you been warned previously after similar incidents? This is a key point. Generally, single incidents which don't evidence intent on the employee's part to disregard the employer's interest don't rise to the level of misconduct.
2. Were you provided, in writing, a rule stating that dismissal was the penalty of failure to I.D. an under age buyer of alcoholic beverages?
3. How old was the person whom you failed to I.D.? It would help your case if the person was over 21. If, for example, the checker was actually 18 for example, this would make your case more difficult.
4. Had you received prior disciplinary action--warnings, reprimands, disciplinary layoffs during the year preceding your dismissal? A clear discipline record will help your case. If you were "on the launching pad" due to prior incidents, this would make your case more difficult.
If your case goes to a hearing before an administrative law judge, I would argue, as you said, the rule "appears to be under 27," is vague and susceptible to varying conclusions because someone who "appears to be under 27" to one person might appear to be over 27 to another person. Stick to your position that the checker did not appear to you to be under 27.
Thank you I found that very helpful and no the checker was not under 18 which is the law in my state and no i had not been reprimanded in th last year for this issue. however once 2 years gone i did fail a compliance check and was suspended for 7 days.
Although selling alcohol to a minor is a serious matter which justifies the checking program. However, a single or occasional unintentional error does not amount to disqualifying misconduct, in my opinion. The fact that you were suspended on a previous occasion is an indication that the company's policy does not require dismissal confirms this view. When an employer reaches back into the past and cites an incident and warning or discipline, this calls for an objection at the hearing that such incidents or discipline a year or more should not be considered when determining misconduct under the Act.
Thank-you I know you are not the judge but it helped to ease my mind just the same.
More help nears for 100,000 jobless
Hard-hit Michiganders count on Congress to act today
BY TODD SPANGLER
FREE PRESS WASHINGTON STAFF
WASHINGTON -- With a key vote Wednesday, the U.S. Senate passed without dissent legislation to extend jobless benefits by 14 weeks or more to out-of-work people -- including at least 100,000 Michiganders -- who have exhausted their unemployment or would by year's end.
The House, which passed a slightly different version, is expected to approve the bill perhaps as early as today and send it to President Barack Obama for his signature.
For many in Michigan, which had a nation-leading 15.3% unemployment rate in September, help can't come too soon.
Congress had previously authorized up to 33 weeks of added benefits as the nation ran headlong into recession, but for many people, those added payments are long gone or set to expire. And in states like Michigan, jobs are hard to come by.
Vickie Jurcak, 50, of Warren lost her job with Quicken Loans in 2008 and saw her last unemployment check in early October. She said she couldn't pay the rent last month and is worried where she and her 17-year-old son will land.
"It depends on my landlord," she said. "There's not going to be any rent paid at the end of this month."
Now even extended benefits are running out for Michiganders
Here's Jurcak's message to Congress: On Wednesday, this Warren mom wanted to go to a job fair in Livonia and couldn't afford the gas. Heck, she didn't even feel like she could spring for the bus fare.
With increasing frequency, the former Quicken Loans title worker, who lost her job in March 2008, heads to St. Leonard on 9 Mile to get food from the food bank. Every time she goes, she said, "there's more and more of us," by which she means unemployed people.
Her last unemployment check came from the state in the first full week of October and, with that, she covered a month's worth of utilities and let $900 in rent go unpaid. She'll depend on her landlord's kindness not to be thrown out, hoping Congress comes through.
Jurcak is one of Michigan's jobless corps -- by percentage bigger than that of any other state in the nation -- counting on the nation's lawmakers to approve yet another extension of unemployment benefits as the prospects of permanent, lasting employment in southeastern Michigan remain grim.
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"I can't even get a job at Burger King," she said. "I tried."
On Wednesday, the Senate passed legislation that adds up to 14 weeks of unemployment benefits for people across the nation who have exhausted their benefits or will by year's end. For some in hard-hit states like Michigan, there could be even more -- as much as another six weeks of benefits -- though there remain doubts about who would be eligible for them.
More legislation might be needed to make them widely available into next year.
Senate passage, which came on a unanimous vote, is expected to lead to a quick vote in the House as early as today and the extension to be signed into law by President Barack Obama, though it could take weeks for checks to be sent out.
"Every day of delay means more individuals are exhausting their unemployment benefits and more people still looking for work are having trouble making ends meet," said U.S. Rep. Sander Levin, a Royal Oak Democrat and a key sponsor of the extension in the House.
"Families throughout the state and across the country are struggling," added Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich.
The Senate legislation also extends a $8,000 first-time homebuyers credit, but in Michigan, the unemployment extension is what seemed to generate the most interest.
Terry Poduska, 51, of Royal Oak, a mother of two teens, last worked for a small financial company in 2008. She said she already has cut the family's spending deeply. She has six more weeks of benefits.
"I don't know what else we can cut out," she said.
Who will qualify for extended benefits?
Extension comes with a deadline: Under the Senate plan approved Wednesday, a person would have to exhaust regular unemployment benefits (14 to 26 weeks in Michigan, or up to seven weeks for workers in their own family businesses) and the previous emergency extension authorized by Congress (up to 33 weeks) by the end of December to be eligible for the extension.
That means anyone whose regular benefits or previously authorized Emergency Unemployment Compensation (EUC) is to be exhausted in 2010 wouldn't qualify for the extra weeks -- at least not under the bill the Senate passed. Congress might extend that window with another bill.
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The new extension isn't retroactive, meaning the program wouldn't provide payments for weeks that have passed since benefits expired.
How the benefit is to be determined: It is to be based on your regular unemployment benefit, which is determined by a formula that looks at recent work history and wages. Depending on that benefit, you could get less than the maximum number of weeks authorized under the extension.
For instance, under the previously authorized extension, a person eligible for 20 weeks of regular benefits received an additional 26 weeks of benefits. The new extension is based on 50% of regular benefits, meaning that person is to receive 10 additional weeks.
Additional weeks: For high-unemployment states like Michigan, there's an additional six weeks of benefits. But under the Senate bill, many people wouldn't qualify.
Recipients have to exhaust all benefits -- including this legislation's initial allotment of up to 14 weeks -- by the end of the year to get the extra six weeks. Since there are only eight weeks left in the year, no one receiving the maximum amount will exhaust the newly authorized 14 weeks in time.
However, if you were already getting less than the maximum number of weeks based on your work history, you could qualify for the extra weeks. For instance, say you only received 14 weeks of regular benefits. Under the previously authorized EUC, you received about 18 weeks of added benefit. The new extension would provide seven weeks -- meaning you could exhaust that before the end of the year and qualify for the additional weeks.
Ready to go: The bill now goes to the House where few, if any, changes are expected. It could be taken up today. Then it would go to President Barack Obama, who is expected to sign it. It will take time for states to contact people who qualify and get checks out to them.
State's extended benefits: Michigan, like many states, is offering its extended benefits, or EB program -- on top of the federal EUC -- which is currently worth an additional 20 weeks of benefits. That could drop to 13 by year's end, if the federal government ends its full funding of the program, as is planned.
Wow, MI has it bad. I thought Missouri was bad with 9.5% unemployment. Does the Senate bill not increase the number of weeks to 20 if the unemployment rate is above 8%, the House bill does that. I wonder if that will survive into the combined version.
Wow! Thanks for the in-depth incite!
~thranax~
Ralph, I have a question that I can't find the answer to anywhere. I was laid off after 10 months on the job (along with many others because of downsizing and budget cuts) and my employer was fine with us getting unemployment. No problem. So I applied for a job recently that was advertized as a 6 month temporary position and I assumed due to the type of work that it would pay ~$11/hr. (I'd made $13/hr at my prior job.) Turns out the job is a 1 year temporary, only $9/hr, no benefits, BUT they want a one-year commitment from me... I countered at $11/hr, no benes, and I would give them the entire year. The employer declined. A full year is too long to work without benes if a better job could be had. So when next I call MARVIN, how do I say Yes I was offered full time work but turned it down, and here's the reason, so that my benefits aren't denied from then on? It was $4/hr less than my prior job. Did I have to take it? Thanks in advance. I appreciate all your expertise.
Madeleine, Your question falls in what appears to me to be a gray area. I wasn't able to find a court case or UIA regulation that clearly answers the question of whether a claiman is required to report refusing a clearly unsuitable job offer. Answering MARVIN that you refused a job offer will raise a question about your eligibility and prompt the UIA to ask you for additional information about the nature of the offer and why you refused it. Your answer would be that the offer was not suitable because of the $4 lower pay than your prior job, lack of benefits and temporary nature of the job. Once you have responded to the UIA's inquiry the Agency will make an eligibility determination, probably in your favor. Another interpretation might be that MARVIN's question presumes that the offer was for a suitable job which this one wasn't. This interpretation might justify a NO answer to MARVIN's question. Note: The Agency probably wouldn't agree with this interpretation even though there is no apparently useful purpose served by requiring claimants to report a refusal of a clearly unsuitable job offer, for example, one for a job 100 miles away from where you live or one that required extensive travel for a single mother with children, or one for which the claimant was not qualified by experience or training. I'm unable to provide a definitive answer.
There is quite a bit of case law on suitability--substantial difference in pay, too far to travel, unqualified by lack of training or experience and so forth. It sounds to me like you were not obligated to take the job offer because it was unsuitable. However, suitability is another somewhat gray area open to differing interpretations. Also, as the duration of your benefits increases, so does the Agency's expectation that you should be willing to accept a lower paying job. This changes in increments based on the months you have collected benefits. Sorry I'm not able to provide a more definitive answer.
Madeleine, Your question falls in what appears to me to be a gray area. I wasn't able to find a court case or UIA regulation that clearly answers the question of whether a claiman is required to report refusing a clearly unsuitable job offer. Answering MARVIN that you refused a job offer will raise a question about your eligibility and prompt the UIA to ask you for additional information about the nature of the offer and why you refused it. Your answer would be that the offer was not suitable because of the $4 lower pay than your prior job, lack of benefits and temporary nature of the job. Once you have responded to the UIA's inquiry the Agency will make an eligibility determination, probably in your favor. Another interpretation might be that MARVIN's question presumes that the offer was for a suitable job which this one wasn't. This interpretation might justify a NO answer to MARVIN's question. Note: The Agency probably wouldn't agree with this interpretation even though there is no apparently useful purpose served by requiring claimants to report a refusal of a clearly unsuitable job offer, for example, one for a job 100 miles away from where you live or one that required extensive travel for a single mother with children, or one for which the claimant was not qualified by experience or training. I'm unable to provide a definitive answer.
There is quite a bit of case law on suitability--substantial difference in pay, too far to travel, unqualified by lack of training or experience and so forth. It sounds to me like you were not obligated to take the job offer because it was unsuitable. However, suitability is another somewhat gray area open to differing interpretations. Also, as the duration of your benefits increases, so does the Agency's expectation that you should be willing to accept a lower paying job. This changes in increments based on the months you have collected benefits. Sorry I'm not able to provide a more definitive answer.
Madeleine, another option would be to call the Agency 800 number and pose your question. Or go to one of the "Problem Resolution Offices (locations linked above) where you can speak face-to-face with a UIA representative and pose your question.
Ralph,
The green book doesn't cover ANY of this... Thank you.
• UIA expects to begin making payments on the new EUC extension by mid-
December.
• If you have exhausted all benefits, you will receive a letter in the mail by
November 21, 2009 with information and instructions about the new EUC
benefits and reporting for benefit payments.
• If you are currently collecting state unemployment, EUC Tier I or Tier II,
continue to report using MARVIN. You will receive information, instructions
and decisions as you continue reporting.
UIA will update information about the EUC and EB extensions on this website.
Here's a site with more information on extended benefits:
August 29, 2009 at board of review level, one board member agrees with the ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE, one board member agrees with me, and one board member agrees with the ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE, but states that the Michigan Unemployment law; 421.29 states the following; “that if an individual has an established benefit year in effect and during that benefit year leaves unsuitable work within 60 days after the beginning of that work the leaving does not disqualify the individual”, that under this law I may be eligible and that she would consider remand my case for a rehearing, as of today 10/23/2009 I am still waiting for my rehearing. As of today 11/16/2009 still no word on my Rehearing.
How long must I wait for a rehearing with the Board of Reveiw, it was by their suggestion that I get a rehearing. Please help me understand Board of Review time line/frame.
I don't have a good feel how long it will take before a re-hearing is scheduled. The judges, the Board of Review and the UIA, as you might imagine are pretty busy. Go for the re-hearing and get a good advocate well in advance of the hearing. Are you pretty sure your case has actually been remanded? Did you request a remand? I don't remember exactly what the procedure is. It might be worth a call to the Board of Review.
It was by the(members of the Board of Review) suggestion that I get a rehearing. So I am sure my case deserves a second look and considerations due to Michigan Unemployment law; 421.29 states the following; “that if an individual has an established benefit year in effect and during that benefit year leaves unsuitable work within 60 days after the beginning of that work the leaving does not disqualify the individual”, in my case I only work for 10 days with this temp agency, and this was an effort on the temp agency behalf not to pay unemployment from a benefit year that was already established from the previous year (2007)not from the 10 days that I worked in 2008. I try to get them change the hours and/or re-assign me to another job they never try to accommodate me what so ever.....I am trying to kept the faith in the State of Michigan being fair (that's all I ask)and that the truth and justice will prevail. Pray for me..cause I am dying here slowly
If Congress doesn't tack action before the end of the year unemployment benefits will run out.
I am new to all of this. I was awared benefits on 6/3/09 and I just got a letter stating that the emloyer disputed this on 7/8/09. How is it that this took over 4 months and is that within protocal? I was fired based on the employers acusation that I was perfoming other business on their time. I was performing other work on my lunch break and my supervisor told me I could. At first the determintation stated I was not deliberatley disregarding my employers interest. How can I prove this and what can they use to try and prove against me?
Thank you
1. File an appeal of the redetermination requesting an administrative law judge hearing.
2. Continue to call MARVIN and certify in accordance with Agency procedures until your case is resolved.
3. At the hearing the burden will be on your employer to prove misconduct to the satisfaction of the judge in accordance with the law. That is not easy to do. The employer will have to show that you violated a rule of which you had been informed, that the violation was intentional, that the violation harmed the interest of the employer, and that you had been previously warned about the action for which you were discharged. From what you said, your case sounds like it should be a winner. But the judge's decision may boil down to whether he believes your testimony or that of your employer.
Get a good advocate to help you and make sure you get to the hearing on time.
Four months does sound like a long time. But I don't believe there is a time limit. If you lose the case you should not be denied benefits for the period before the employer responded to the agency's request for infomation on the reason you were dismissed. The employer will have to provide first-hand, non-hearsay testimony supporting their reason for firing you and establish the elements of proof for misconduct that I listed above.
bob says:
3 years ago
Can i recieve unemployment if i was fired due to a point system ?