Zimmerman Trial: When did it become OK to end a fist fight with a gun?

Zimmerman's gun

When did it become OK in America to use a gun in a fist fight?
When did it become OK in America to use a gun in a fist fight? | Source

We villify the police for using deadly force on unarmed suspects!

I am really impressed with the prosecution in the George Zimmerman trial. They have not tried to hide any witnesses. They have let the truth come out and now a jury will get to decide. That said, America baffles me because when did it become alright to end a fist fight with a gun?

This case is about two things. George Zimmerman’s frustration with his neighborhood being victimized and him getting into a fist fight that he started to lose. It is not about Stand Your Ground because Trayvon Martin was not breaking any laws. He was walking home and all of America can see that now.

However, what happened in the two minutes between the time the dispatcher told Zimmerman not to follow Martin and the gunshot is what this case is about. We now know that Trayvon tried to lose Zimmerman. That Zimmerman got out of his car and either cut Trayvon off or tracked him down because there was a verbal confrontation.

There are some other questions that need to be answered. Where was Zimmerman’s gun holstered and could Trayvon see it? Why was a round chambered and when was Zimmerman’s pistol cocked? We know there was a struggle standing up that went to the ground. One witness said that Trayvon got the best of Zimmerman. Then Zimmerman shot him.

When a police officer is confronted with an UNARMED but resisting suspect, we do not allow them to use deadly force. The fact that Zimmerman was not trained is for another blog. However, why is alright in the minds of some Americans that because George Zimmerman was losing a fight he had the right to pull out a gun and shoot a young man?

Some will say, well Zimmerman was ‘standing his ground’. No he was not. He was trying to be a hero. It was raining. Trayvon was trying to stay out of the rain and he was on his phone. Zimmerman followed him and then confronted him. And yes, after Martin tried to evade Zimmerman, he (Martin) had the right to ask Zimmerman why he was following him.

Zimmerman did not have the right to accost this young man. He was not committing any crimes. Which brings us back to the fight because it does not matter who threw the first punch, all that matters is what happened in the end. They were standing up fighting. A neighbor tried to stop them. Zimmerman started losing the fight. The neighbor said he saw Martin straddling Zimmerman. So, then the adult in this situation, the person who instigated it, drew a gun and shot Martin in the chest and he died lying face down.

I think that was against the law, even in the Old West. Just saying!

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83 comments

Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

This is why you never take legal advice over the internet from someone who has no clue as to what he is posting about.

For a quick overview on the law of self defense, what is permitted and not permitted, and the principle of proportionality here is Andrew Blanca, a noted authority in the law...

http://tinyurl.com/n9nzz4h

For a look at the doctrine labeled "Disparity of Force" from a non-Zimmerman prospective you can read here:

http://tinyurl.com/pzxdkzz

I would advise the hubber to study up on issues he wants to post about before posting if he desires to retain any credibility with those who actually do know the issues.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

BTW... would you allow your students to get away with such shoddy research into a paper they turn in to you?If so, then we can begin to understand the problems our kids are having in school.


Ralph 3 years ago

"That said, America baffles me because when did it become alright to end a fist fight with a gun?"

When you are attacked and in fear of severe bodily injury or death. That is what needs to be determined in this trial.

"There are some other questions that need to be answered. Where was Zimmerman’s gun holstered and could Trayvon see it?"

In an IWB holster on his right side. It would have been visible if his jacket came up during the struggle. This was covered thoroughly in the trial.

"Why was a round chambered and when was Zimmerman’s pistol cocked?"

Everyone I know carries with a round in the chamber. If a situation is serious enough to draw your pistol you may not have time to rack the slide.

The pistol was Double-Action Only. Basically that means the weapon was cocked when Zimmerman pulled the trigger.

"We know there was a struggle standing up that went to the ground. One witness said that Trayvon got the best of Zimmerman. Then Zimmerman shot him."

Which witness was this? All the witnesses so far have basically said Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him. Again, it seems like you're watching a different trial.

Also, did you watch the testimony of the PA that treated Zimmerman's wounds? She stated he had a broken nose and injuries on his head consistant with having it smashed on the concrete.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

There were other witnesses who saw them struggling. One who said she saw Zimmerman on top. What trial are you watching? One who said she saw them tussling with each other. One who said, yes he saw Trayvon, on top. What are you talking about?


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

Jack Burton, I just read your links and so, according to that link, what gave George Zimmerman the right to use deadly force on this child? He initiated the incident. Trayvon tried to retreat. Trayvon was unarmed. According the law of self-defense, what gave George Zimmerman the right to shoot this kid.

BTW: Personal attacks are venue of small minds and those who have nothing else to say. If you can't stick to the facts, don't post.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

BTW: Did you see the coroner's report on Trayvon's body? He had no blood or evidence of a fight on his hands. Did you notice the bullet hole?

You don't have the right to use deadly force on someone who breaks your nose. Oh, and did you hear PA say that she had treated Zimmerman before and that he was involved in MMA three days a week?


Ralph 3 years ago

John Good was the one that used the word "tussle." His testimony severely hurt the prosecution. You should really watch the witness testimony and actually see what was said prior to arguing. All of it backed up Zimmerman's description of events.

Orlando Sentinel, 30 June

"After two days' testimony by the state's star witness ended Thursday, prosecutors on Friday called the man expected to be the defense's star: John Good, a Zimmerman neighbor who told Sanford police that on the night of the shooting he'd seen a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style."

On the witness stand, Good said he was watching television in the living room of his Retreat at Twin Lakes townhome when he heard noises outside. He opened his glass sliding door and stepped out onto his porch.

It looked like a "tussle," Good said, adding "I yelled out, 'What's going on?' and 'Stop it,' I believe."

Good said two people were wrestling, in a straddling position — which defense attorney Mark O'Mara acted out on his knees in court, and Good described with MMA terminology: The "ground and pound."

The one on top was wearing dark clothes, he said, and the one on the bottom had lighter skin and was wearing white or red.

Pressed further by O'Mara, Good said he could identify them: "The person who you now know to be Trayvon Martin was on top, correct?" O'Mara asked.

"Correct," Good replied.

"And he was the one who was raining blows down on the person on the bottom, George Zimmerman, right?" O'Mara followed.

Good's response: "That's what it looked like.""


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

HE HAD A RIGHT TO DEFEND HIMSELF. George Zimmerman had a gun! Why does this 17-year-old kid not have a right to defend himself against a man who is accosting him with a gun? It doesn't matter who said it. They saw them tussling. This fight didn't start on the ground.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

Facts not in dispute:

1. Trayvon Martin was not committing a crime.

2. George Zimmerman followed him and Martin tried to lose him.

3. At some point George got out of his car and followed Martin.

4. They got into a physical altercation caused by Zimmerman getting out of his car.

5. Trayvon Martin is dead.

How anyone could think that this incident is anything but a crime, I have no idea.


Ralph 3 years ago

"BTW: Did you see the coroner's report on Trayvon's body? He had no blood or evidence of a fight on his hands. Did you notice the bullet hole?"

That doesn't mean anything. DNA is only a big deal when it is found where it is not supposed to be. Not the other way around.

If you want to bring up the coroner's report. Here you go.

SANFORD, Fla. —

WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died.

The information could support George Zimmerman's claim that Martin beat him up before Zimmerman shot and killed him.

The autopsy results come as Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O’Mara continues to go over other evidence in the case.

O’Mara wouldn't comment on the autopsy evidence, but WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer said it's better for the defense than it is for the prosecution.

WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.

When you compare Trayvon’s non-fatal injury with Zimmerman's bloody head wounds, the autopsy evidence is better for the defense, Sheaffer said.

“It goes along with Zimmerman's story that he acted in self-defense, because he was getting beaten up by Trayvon Martin,” Sheaffer said.

-----------------------

As for the bullet wound it was said to have occurred from medium range. This is totally consistant with Zimmerman's account.

Dr. Michael Baden, the former New York City medical examiner, said "intermediate" in such cases is defined as the muzzle of the gun being one to 18 inches away from the entry point when fired.


Ralph 3 years ago

"Why does this 17-year-old kid not have a right to defend himself against a man who is accosting him with a gun? It doesn't matter who said it. They saw them tussling. This fight didn't start on the ground."

It does matter, because no witness has been able to explain what happened before Martin was seen going MMA on Zimmerman. The testimony you are describing never happened. Please do a little research.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

Sure they have, Jeantel. She wasn't a sterling witness, but she was on the phone with him when Zimmerman accosted Martin. Trayvon, as was his right, asked Zimmerman what he was following him for. Don't try and denigrate Jeantel to me either. She's an immigrant kid who's English skills would be lacking for that reason. She wasn't the best witness, but her story has remained stable. This was a fist fight. George lost.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

"Next to take the stand was Jeannee Manalo, another neighbor. Manalo said she heard "howling" and saw two men struggling outside her home.

She said she saw a larger man on top of a smaller man, and after watching news reports, she said she concluded the man on top was George Zimmerman. "I believe it was Zimmerman, comparing the size of their bodies," she said."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57591121-50...

You can read it yourself. She said she saw what she thought was Zimmerman on top.


Ralph 3 years ago

You mean this?

"The last thing you heard was something hitting somebody?" West asked her.

"Trayvon got hit," Jeantel said.

"You don't know that, do you?" the defense lawyer said.

"No sir," she said.

"You don't know that he didn't take his fist and drive it into Zimmerman's face do you?" the lawyer pressed.

"No sir," Jeantel replied.


Ralph 3 years ago

Jeannee Manalo was another win for the prosecution.

"Jeannee Manalo testified that she believed Zimmerman was on top of Martin, saying he was the bigger of the two based on pictures she saw of Martin on television after the fight. Manalo lived closer to the scene. She testified that she “heard a howling sound, I didn’t see anything then heard yelling for help and saw two people on the ground.” Manalo further testified that she saw “two people on the grass one on top, and then a neighbor asked if they needed help. The person on top was hitting the other.” “I heard a shot. I told my husband. He went out” to see about the noise said Manalo.

Under cross-examination, defense attorney Mark O’Mara asked why she had never mentioned her belief that Zimmerman was on top in previous police interviews with Manalo conceding on cross that her perception of Martin’s size was based on five-year-old photos she had seen of him on television that showed a younger and smaller Martin."

- See more at: http://www.constitutionally-speaking.com/category/...

--------------------------

She thought Martin was the smaller person because of the media showing all the pictures of him when he was 12. In reality, she is really saying Martin was on top. He was the bigger of the two.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

No, what I mean is when she said that she heard and out of breath Zimmerman ask Trayvon what he was doing there. There was a struggle. She heard them struggling. This kid had a right to defend himself. He was scared and trying to get away from Zimmerman. This was a fist fight caused by Zimmerman. He pursued this kid, they got into a fight.

Let's turn this around, what if this was a 17-year-old girl? Would we expect her to wait until Zimmerman rapes her before she starts to fight? How did Trayvon know what Zimmerman's intentions were?


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

When I was 16-years-old, I was 6'1" and weighed 147lbs. Trayvon was 6'+ and 160lbs. He was a rail. George outweighed him by 40 lbs. He was 5'8" and 200lbs at the time of the incident. Being larger has nothing to do with being tall. It's body weight and mass. I teach high school and coach basketball, none of my 6'+ 17-year-olds have the maturity of a full grown male.


Ralph 3 years ago

"No, what I mean is when she said that she heard and out of breath Zimmerman ask Trayvon what he was doing there. There was a struggle. She heard them struggling. This kid had a right to defend himself. He was scared and trying to get away from Zimmerman. This was a fist fight caused by Zimmerman. He pursued this kid, they got into a fight."

There is no proof that Zimmerman started the fight. That is what the prosecution is trying to prove and failing.

"Let's turn this around, what if this was a 17-year-old girl? Would we expect her to wait until Zimmerman rapes her before she starts to fight? How did Trayvon know what Zimmerman's intentions were?"

You are making your assumptions on this case based on feelings rather than facts. This is what caused Zimmerman to be charged with second degree murder and why this trial is going so poorly for the prosecution. Zimmerman's intentions are what this trial is about and so far the prosecution has totally failed to show any intent by Zimmerman to cause harm.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

hab se3z: There were other witnesses who saw them struggling. One who said she saw Zimmerman on top. What trial are you watching? One who said she saw them tussling with each other. One who said, yes he saw Trayvon, on top. What are you talking about?

Jack replies: Zimmerman has said from the beginning that after he shot Martin he rolled on top of him to prevent him from grabbing the gun. If a witness says he say zim "on top" he is merely agreeing with zim's testimony.


Ralph 3 years ago

"When I was 16-years-old, I was 6'1" and weighed 147lbs. Trayvon was 6'+ and 160lbs. He was a rail. George outweighed him by 40 lbs. He was 5'8" and 200lbs at the time of the incident. Being larger has nothing to do with being tall. It's body weight and mass. I teach high school and coach basketball, none of my 6'+ 17-year-olds have the maturity of a full grown male."

The witness flat out said she believed Martin was on the bottom based on the pictures the media promoted of him when he was 12.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

There is no proof that Trayvon started it either! A 17-year-old was going home to watch the rest of the NBA All-Star game and he is dead. You're trying to take the unjustified killing of a teenager and make it fit into a legal box and it doesn't.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

hab sez: Jack Burton, I just read your links and so, according to that link, what gave George Zimmerman the right to use deadly force on this child?

Jack repleis: Perhaps you need to re-read them if you still have to ask this question.

hab sez: He initiated the incident. Trayvon tried to retreat.

Jack replies: Getting a little ahead of yourself, eh. This is exactly what the trial is all about.

hab sez: Trayvon was unarmed. According the law of self-defense, what gave George Zimmerman the right to shoot this kid.

Jack replies: Would you tolerate a student who reads an issue and refuses to learn the first thing from it?

hab sez: BTW: Personal attacks are venue of small minds and those who have nothing else to say. If you can't stick to the facts, don't post.

Jack replies: Pointing out failures of logic and inconsistencies of thought are not personal attacks.



Ralph 3 years ago

"There is no proof that Trayvon started it either!"

Zimmerman is the one on trial for second degree murder.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

Trayvon is DEAD!!!!


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

hab sez: There is no proof that Trayvon started it either!

Jack replies: Either? ... fascinating word, either.

In any standard American English discussion it would pretty much mean that you have now come to accept that "there is no proof that zimmerman started it."

But let's get back to these high school kids you teach. I am still puzzled by the incongruity of a high school teacher who probably demands that his students research thoroughly before writing on a subject but yet doesn't hold himself to the same kind of standards.


Ralph 3 years ago

You're not getting it. Zimmerman is on trial for second degree murder. He is the one that is facing a very lengthy sentence if found guilty. The defense doesn't necessarily have to prove that Martin started it, but the prosecution does have to prove that Zimmerman did. Do you know what reasonable doubt is?


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

You're not getting it. Under Florida Stand Your Ground, if you have tried to evade a situation and that situation still confronts you, you have a RIGHT to defend yourself. That's what Trayvon was doing.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

hab sez: Trayvon is DEAD!!!!

Jack replies: And that's why I taught my kids that if you play stupid games you might wind up paying a price you don't want.

Trayvon, with drugs in his system, and an attitude to match thought he could go thug-life on a fat, hispanic guy and "pound and ground" him with impunity. It didn't work out the way he planned, eh.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

hab sez: "situation still confronts you"

Jack repleis: And that's another of your major problems. The only way you can get Martin into a "situation" where he had to attack Zimmerman is to make up stuff from thin air. Such as Martin seeing Zimmermans gun. Totally based on pretend facts.


Ralph 3 years ago

"You're not getting it. Under Florida Stand Your Ground, if you have tried to evade a situation and that situation still confronts you, you have a RIGHT to defend yourself. That's what Trayvon was doing."

This isn't about "Stand your Ground." This is about whether a CHL holder was justified in using deadly force. I think I stated this and went into more detail on one of your other Hubs.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

So you say. I say that Trayvon had the right to defend himself from an adult that was following him whose intentions he had no way of knowing.

He was not committing a crime. He was not harming Zimmerman in any way. He was trying to stay dry and make it home.


Ralph 3 years ago

Florida Statute 776.012 

Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102; s. 2, ch. 2005-27.


Ralph 3 years ago

"He was not committing a crime. He was not harming Zimmerman in any way. He was trying to stay dry and make it home."

The witnesses (for the prosecution by the way) so far have testified to the opposite. They have testified that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him.

The PA who treated Zimmerman said his injuries were consitent with his head being slammed into the concrete and that such an attack could cause great bodily harm or death.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

And? You just proved my point. Why would Zimmerman have been afraid for his life? He was carrying a weapon, he was in his neighborhood, and he initiated the pursuit of Trayvon? The only person who had a reasonable fear for their person was Trayvon Martin. I'm not getting your logic.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

Which part of none of this would have happened if it hadn't been for George Zimmerman are you not understanding? Trayvon Martin would still be alive if George Zimmerman had JUST stayed in his car and allowed the police to come.

He is not a peace officer, he is not trained in de-escalating tense situations. This entire debacle is his fault.


Ralph 3 years ago

"And? You just proved my point. Why would Zimmerman have been afraid for his life?"

He was getting his head beaten into the concrete.

"He was carrying a weapon, he was in his neighborhood, and he initiated the pursuit of Trayvon?"

Have you watched any of the trial?

"I'm not getting your logic."

I'm not surprised.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

I understand that George was getting his head beat in, but it wouldn't have happen if he had listened to the dispatcher and stayed in his car. This trial is not just about what happened to Zimmerman. It is about the fear that this young man was feeling that made him try to avoid Zimmerman in the first place. According to the law that you posted, Trayvon, a Florida citizen, was going HOME. He had not intention of committing any crime. Therefore, Zimmerman's pursuit is null and void. When he continued to follow him, Trayvon had a right to defend himself.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

According to DeeDee's testimony Martin was standing next to his father's home, walked away and then went looking for Zimmerman. You really need to watch this instead of relying upon news broadcasts.


Ralph 3 years ago

"I understand that George was getting his head beat in, but it wouldn't have happen if he had listened to the dispatcher and stayed in his car. This trial is not just about what happened to Zimmerman. It is about the fear that this young man was feeling that made him try to avoid Zimmerman in the first place."

So far the testimony in the trial (by Rachel Jeantel) has made it sound like Martin double-backed to confront Zimmerman. The witnesses (again for the prosecution) have also made it very plausible that Zimmerman would have had to get out of his car to get an address for the police. You seem to have a firm belief of what occurred that night that none of the evidence supports.


Ralph 3 years ago

You should really watch the testimony of Rachel Jeantel, Jennifer Lauer, and John Good before arguing any further. You are basically citing their testimony, but it is obvious you haven't watched it.

De La Rionda even tried to impeach Lauer (his witness) because her testimony was so damaging to the prosecution. He was very lucky the jury was out of the room. He didn't understand social media and only bolstered her credibility. He looked like a buffoon.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

Dude,

Here is a really good map.

http://zimmerman-vs-martin.blogspot.com/2012/09/ta...

It took two minutes between the time Zimmerman finished his 911 call until Trayvon was dead. Maybe you misunderstood.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

My firm belief is that if George Zimmerman had stayed in his car, this young man would still be alive.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

And if bullfrogs had wings they would not go bumpty, bumpty, bump down the road.

Zimmerman was rightfully concerned about living in a neighborhood that had had multiple break ins over the past months. He was rightfully part of a neighborhood watch. He was legally able by state law to question a stranger in the housing complex that he was living in as it was a restricted complex and not a pubic place.

My firm belief is that if Martin wasn't so caught up in being a wannabe thug who was high on drugs and used to getting his way physically, with a girl on the phone egging him on and telling him not to take any "disrespect" from a cracker then he would still be a live, young man.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

The suspect of the break-ins had been caught, he was a resident. Neighborhood Watch does not sanctioned following a suspicious person, their motto is watch and report. What state law gives a civilian the right to question anyone anywhere? Trayvon was not a stranger, he lived there. And how is telling him to run egging him on? You make no sense my friend and I'm done talking to you. You've convicted this 17-year-old who committed no CRIME. In your mind he is a thug and you have no proof of that except he had pot in his system, which he could have smoked days before. I'll keep approving your post, but there is absolutely no need to ever have another conversation with you. Ciao.


Ralph 3 years ago

Agreed Jack on Rachel Jeantel. I'm not sure this is the last we're going to hear of her in this trial. I don't think the whole story has been told.

Another thing that's interesting is that when she got off the phone with Martin she was not concerned. She testified that he probably got in a fight like that's just what he does.


Ralph 3 years ago

"What state law gives a civilian the right to question anyone anywhere?"

What proof do you have that Zimmerman questioned Martin? Even if he did that would not give Martin the justification to beat Zimmerman's head into the concrete.

"Trayvon was not a stranger, he lived there."

No he didn't. He lived with his mother and was not recognized there.

"And how is telling him to run egging him on?"

Her testimony is garbage and I'm sure there is more to the story than what she stated. Expect her to be called back.

Once again, watch a little of the trial.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

Jack Burton wrote: "Zimmerman was rightfully concerned about living in a neighborhood that had had multiple break ins over the past months. He was rightfully part of a neighborhood watch. He was legally able by state law to question a stranger in the housing complex that he was living in as it was a restricted complex and not a pubic place."

Read the entire thread, my friend.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

1) So once a burglar is caught there will never, ever be another burglary in that housing location. I'll have to remember that.

2) Errrr.... we don't live in a system where we only have the "rights" that are granted by a nanny state. Unless there is a specific law against something we have the right to do so. And again, which you ignored, this was not a public place. It was a place where only residents were allowed.

3) He lived there for how many days?

4) Who told him to "run"

5) We already established in the beginning that you know nothing about the laws of self defense, what is allowed and what is not allowed. Your naive defense that Martin committed no "crime" is as shaky as everything else you've posted.

6) I'll allow the readers to decide on themselves if Martin was enamoured of the thug life and was a wannabe...

http://lerant.proboards.com/thread/5877

7) Oh... the POT in his system. Innocent Treyvon was a dopehead?

8) I can understand why you would rather not discuss the issue with me.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

hab sez: Read the entire thread, my friend.

Jack replies: Not exactly a sterling objection to my post. Kinda hard to get around pesky facts, eh.


Ralph 3 years ago

I did. Same question, what proof do you have that Zimmerman even questioned Martin in this case? There has not been even the most remote incident of provoction shown so far by Zimmerman in this trial. None. Watch a little of the trial. You really don't know what you are talking about.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

OH... BTW... for your further education and edification...

"How Much Injury Is Required Before Self-Defense is Justified?"

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zimmerman-upd...


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

I didn't say Zimmerman questioned Trayvon. It was a question that I was asking in response to a comment. Are you ok? By the way, Zimmerman's PROVOCATION was getting out of his car in the first place.


Ralph 3 years ago

You still don't get it. There has been no evidence presented that has shown Zimmerman in any way intiated a violent confrontation with Martin. All evidence so far is saying Zimmerman shot Martin because his head was getting pounded into the concrete. Watch some of the trial rather than going along with what the media was stirring a year ago.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

You keep repeating the same thing and all I'm asking you is what about Trayvon's right to be afraid? Did he not have that same right to be afraid for his well-being after Zimmerman had followed him into the complex? Can you allow for that? How was this teen supposed to know what Zimmerman's intentions were. I would have done the same thing.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

One more salvo, in his 911 tape, Zimmerman said, "He's running." Jeantel said that Trayvon tried to lose Zimmerman. What was he running from? He hadn't committed a crime. He was running from Zimmerman. If he tried to evade a confrontation with Zimmerman and Zimmerman continued to pursue him, he had every right to stand up for himself. Yea, he fought Zimmerman, but he had a right too.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

hab sez: You have three pictures, I have 11.

Jack repplies: Pics taken when Martin was 12 really don't bolster the case much


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

Sorry Jack, those were pictures from his prom and his 16th or 17th birthday. Good day!


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

zimmerman went back to the car. Every bit of evidence shows that. Martin followed him and attacked him away from the place of safety, his fathers's house, that he was only feet from moments previously.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

I am sure that every thug has sweet, family photos. .. and this proves....?


Ralph 3 years ago


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

Hab wants proof that Martin was a wannabe thug?

Here's all the proof he'll ever need... but watch him reject it because it doesn't fit his emotional needs.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/new_evidenc...


Ralph 3 years ago

"U a hoodlum," said the friend. "Naw," said Martin. "I'm a gangsta."

Priceless.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

Seriously, at the high school where I teach, 75% of the young males of all races talk like that. Black, Asian, Samoan, Hispanic, and white, You guys need to catch up on hip-hop culture. The n-word, thug, gangsta are terms used by children ALL over this country. "I'm a G!" "I'm a gangsta!" " I'm a pimp!" They use these words like they use the word gay or how they use to use ghetto. We did the same things with the language as kids. They're called idioms. If you want to know how I feel about it, here is a link: http://hubpages.com/politics/Niggahs-No-MO

Remember, Gay use to mean happy and people gave their daughter's that name.

BTW: Do you really believe that Zimmerman got out of his car to see a street sign? Come on man!


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

I want to make sure I have this right, this thug, this gangsta, during a fight when he tries to kill someone and he bangs their head against the ground "25" times, when he gets shot says, "Oh my gosh, you got me." C'mon man!

And BTW: I got suspended as a kid in high school. I'm sure you two weren't angels either. Just saying!


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

Actually, Z didn't say that he said that. And that is what you get for only reading the news. In his original statement Z said, "You got it."

The POLICEMAN repeated back, You got me.

And this is the power and danger of implanted memories. From that point on Z repeated the words of the POLICEMAN, not his original statement.

Trey could have easily said a variety of things such as you shot me, you got it, you got me, I'm on the top of the world, ma. None of which makes a single difference to the documented way that things happened that night, eh.

weak sauce indeed.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

Thankk you for admitting that martin was part of the wannabe gang culture.

And yes, even the witnesses on the stand documented that it is very hard to see just where one is at in the complex unless you are out of the car.

And that is what you get for not actually following the trial but depending upon the news media.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

Jack, he lived there. He patrolled the area.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

Sorry my friend, he said both. That's where his inconsistencies come in. I understand that you are sitting and watching this trial from end-to-end and I don't. I'm still trying to reconcile what Trayvon supposedly said at the end of his death with your thug image of him.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

Small inconsistencies are a part of every testimony...when a witness tells the same exact story in the same exact manner time after time you are looking at a witness that has either been coached or is lying about his story.

That is basic knowledge about human nature.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

So, he goes from, I thought he was reaching for my gun which he told police. To telling his friend who wrote the book, he grabbed my gun and I wrestled it away from me. You think that's a minor inconsistency? Also, according Zimmerman, Trayvon saw his gun. That still, in your mind doesn't give this 'thug' the right to be afraid, correct? Trayvon couldn't be afraid of the grownup with a gun following him down the street in the rain at night, George may get off, but this has been a great exercise in people's perception of this 17-year-old high school student who was just trying to go home. Sorry about being emotional.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

And this is what kind of comments you get when you have a poster who really isn't following the trial but only knows what the biased media is feeding him.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

Ok, so the medical examiner who examines Zimmerman's medical report said his injuries were consistent with one punch and one impact with the concrete. You keep repeating yourself, my friend, I'm beginning to wonder if you are Ok. I'm just asking questions. Some of the questions I've asked are the same one investigators asked.

1. Why didn't Zimmerman identify himself. He was the responsible party?

2. Didn't Trayvon have a RIGHT to be afraid of being followed? If Trayvon saw his weapon, wouldn't that increase his fear?

3. Are Zimmerman's injuries consistent with necessity for using deadly force?

Answers?


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

1) Z was under no legal obligation to identify himself

2) "being afraid" and knocking someone down and grounding and pounding on their head are two quite difference things. We've given you the cites on what is needed to defend yourself with violence against another person. Either you have not read them, you are purposely ignoring them, or you couldn't understand them. And you still haven't answered why, with Martin being only feet from his fathers home and safety, went back in the opposite direction and tracked Z down.

3) If I give you an authoritative cite are you going to actually read it and learn something?

"How Much Injury Is Required Before Self-Defense is Justified?"

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zimmerman-upd...

Or you just trust the California penal code...

WHEN CAN YOU USE SELF DEFENSE?

· You can use self defense and defend yourself from attack if you “reasonably believe” that bodily injury is about to be immediately inflicted on you. Once you reasonably believe that bodily injury is about to be inflicted on you, you may use “all the force you believe “reasonably necessary” to prevent yourself from being injured. --See CALJIC 5.30

DO YOU HAVE TO BE IN ACTUAL DANGER TO USE SELF DEFENSE?

NO. In order to use self defense, you don’t have to be in actual danger; it only has to reasonably appear to you that you are going to be harmed. But remember this has to be a REASONABLE appearance of harm.

What this means is that you don’t have to wait for someone to strike you first before you can use reasonable force to defend yourself. You can strike first as long as your believe that this person is about to be immediately assault you-- and that your belief is “reasonable” under the circumstances. --CALJIC 5.51

CAN YOU EVER USE A WEAPON TO DEFEND YOURSELF WHERE THE OTHER PERSON IS UNARMED?

YES AND NO. Where someone assaults you with fists only, you can’t defend yourself with a deadly weapon, i.e., a knife, unless you reasonably believe that the person assaulting you is going to “inflict great bodily injury” on you. --CALJIC 5.31


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

BTW... you mean the "medical examiner who didn't examine Zimmerman" right?


Ralph 3 years ago

"Ok, so the medical examiner who examines Zimmerman's medical report said his injuries were consistent with one punch and one impact with the concrete."

Watch the cross-examination. She was hand-picked by Angela Corey to say what she wanted her to. She never examined Zimmerman and eventually she admitted she had no idea what occurred. She even admitted the pictures she used to make her assumptions were of poorer quality than O'Mara's. It is possible though, that she could have helped the prosecution if she had any tact or people skills.

As for minor discrepancies, watch the testimony from the prosecution's witness, Serino.


Ralph 3 years ago

"Seriously, at the high school where I teach, 75% of the young males of all races talk like that. Black, Asian, Samoan, Hispanic, and white, You guys need to catch up on hip-hop culture. The n-word, thug, gangsta are terms used by children ALL over this country."

No, those words are not really used all over the country, but they are used in some areas. Many times those area are what most of us would call the bad areas. I am hoping that you are not supporting you students talking like that. It will limit their opportunities in life and they don't know it yet.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

I've read your cites. Zimmerman had no legal right to follow this child in the first place. He was not law enforcement, he was not authorized security, and he was not authorized under Neighborhood Watch!

According to testimony, his injuries were not significant, Trayvon tried to evade him, the confrontation, would have never happened had it not been for George. There are three areas on your list of self-defense where George gets an F.

Had he seen Trayvon committing a crime, the story would have been different. No one wants to begrudge you the right to protect where you live, but this was a bad shooting brought on by a frustrated watch supervisor who was tired of being victimized.

There may not be a legal obligation to identify yourself, but even the investigators understood that he had a moral one. That said, this is a manslaughter case so far! Ciao!


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

Ralph,

Children all over the country use THOSE words.


habueld profile image

habueld 3 years ago from Riverside, CA Author

I work with them. I teach 10th grade ESL, and writing. I consult with other teachers all OVER the country. It's everywhere. I was just at a conference with groups from Salt Lake City and Chicago. It's everywhere.

The defense did not shred the medical examiner. Of course she was chosen.


Ralph 3 years ago

@ Habu

All you do is post the same, tired argument. What you are arguing has no relevancy to the laws being examined in this case and is also unsubstantiated by the facts and testimony so far.

As for all kids talking liking ghetto trash, they don't. Take whatever survey you would like. Hopefully it will include more that ESL teachers in bad neighborhoods.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

Agreed, Ralph. Hab is emotionally invested in this. He simply cannot be reasoned with. It's like the guy who's in love with the cheating wife. Everyone else can see it but he has stars in his eyes for his little bride.

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