Is JESUS the FATHER?

Is Jesus the Father?

My brother in Christ, Lone Ranger, recently read my hub “GOD: Let Us Make Man In Our Image?” and had some very good questions. The answer to each one of them could be a hub all its own, but I am attempting to summarize, to the best of my ability, what I have learned about God thus far. I cannot bring the knowledge and understanding, any more than any of us can understand the written Word without the anointed teaching of the Holy Spirit. So, for Lone Ranger and anyone else who may be struggling with the question “Is Jesus the Father?”, here we go:

Lone Ranger stated: “Wow, heavy stuff, J.D., but the time spent reading your post is well worth it!”

Answer: I hope the “Let Us Make Man” question has been answered sufficiently for you in the hub you recently read. There is vast information in the Bible to answer each and every question, of which I am yet laboring to learn more and more and minister to those who are thirsty. I appreciate your questions and want to carefully and patiently take time to answer each one. Again, I can only summarize here what I have learned thus far and direct you to more of my hubs, where I go into more detail and depth.

Lone Ranger said, “I'll be honest with you, I am still struggling with this concept of Jesus being The Father.”

Answer: Yes, I can imagine. I too, struggled greatly to ask God these questions. The struggle was not in the asking, but in shedding indoctrination, as I received the answers. The Truth is so refreshing! You can witness my initial struggle and writing of this revelation in my hub “Let Me Tell You WHO God Is!". Once I received the rain-drop of Truth, the flood-gates were opened wide and I have written more and more. I’m still learning, growing and writing.

While there’s a myriad of scriptures that prove YHWH is the LORD and Jesus is YHWH, the LORD, let’s confirm a few verses in the Bible, where no one can refute or deny Jesus is the Father: Isaiah 9:6 tells us The Son will be called “Mighty God [El], Everlasting Father”. In John 14:7 Jesus told His disciples that if they had seen Him, they had seen the Father and from then on they had not only seen the Father, but knew Him. Are multitudes yet expecting to ask Jesus to 'show us the Father' when they cross the pearly gates? Notice what Jesus said to the woman with the issue of blood, who had faith in Him enough to touch His garment and be healed (Mat 9:20): “DAUGHTER, take courage; your faith has made you well.” And again in Mark 2:5 "And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, 'SON, your sins are forgiven." Even look at the words of Jesus in Rev 21:7 “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My SON.”

Lone Ranger asked: “If They are one and the same, then how were all three Persons of the Godhead seen or heard at the same time during Christ's baptism?”

Answer: God is able to manifest Himself in any way, whether in one form or many at the same time. Did you know that when Phil 2:6-7 states that Jesus existed in the ‘form of God’ and the 'form of a bondservant', the Greek word for ‘form’ is ‘morphe’? Jesus also appeared in 'another form' [morphe] to the two men walking on the road, after His resurrection (Mark 16:12) ~ they did not recognize Him. God morphes! Jesus IS THE IMAGE of the invisible God (Col 1:15; Heb 1:3) ~ always has been and always will be. I ask Trinitarians why are there only three ‘persons’ in the Godhead, when there should be seven, if they consider ALL the manifestations of God throughout the Bible. Let’s just look at the Old Testament first: immortal flesh appearing to Abraham and Jacob (Gen 18:2; 19:1; Gen 32:24, 28, 30); the Angel of the LORD (Ex 3:2; Josh 5:13; 6:2; Jud 6:11, 14); the Rock at Horeb (Ex 17:6. 1 Cor 10:4); clouds by day and fire by night (Num 14:14). For 4,000 years before Christ’s birth, the Jews saw God in all these manifestations, yet never split Him into persons. They were God’s chosen. If they did not split Him up, why should we? In the New Testament, we see God manifested in the invisible, speaking Spirit of the OT (the Word), and mortal flesh (the Word), as well as the dove = 7 total. All of these manifestations are the same, singular God.

Lone Ranger asked: “Why did Jesus say, ‘My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not what I want but what You want." (Matt 26:39) I do not understand how God The Father, posing as Jesus in the Flesh could have a conflict of interest? How could God be experiencing a conflict between His heavenly will and His earthly will while posing as Christ in the Flesh and acting as God The Father simultaneously?”

Answer: God is invisible and omnipresent. God is the Holy Spirit, who overshadowed Mary to beget a fleshly body that would shed His holy blood (Acts 20:28). The flesh of Mary (not even of Joseph) “was made a little lower than the angels to suffer death” (Heb 2:9). This is why Jesus was called the Son of Man, yet because He was begotten of The Holy Spirit (God), He was the Son of God (also known as the Lamb of God). Our immortal, invisible Creator became one of His mortal, visible created beings. His flesh was limited to being in one place at one time, while His Spirit remained omnipresent, thus "Greater than I" (John 14:28). Consider God's immortal flesh appearance to Abraham. Did He leave all of heaven at that time? I don't think so! Truly, it was the Son of Mary that submitted to the will of the Holy Spirit (God – the Father), just as we do. His fleshly existence was tempted and tried in every way that we are. God in the flesh became the second Adam (the life-giving Spirit) to conquer and redeem the fall of the first Adam (the first living being) – 1 Cor 15:45.

Lone Ranger asked: “How is it that Jesus cried out, ‘My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" (Matt 27:46) How could The Almighty forsake Himself in the Flesh?”

Answer: The flesh of Mary, sinless because of the Deity of God indwelling Him, took on the sin of the whole world. It was His flesh that was forsaken, and only His flesh. The Son of Mary felt the separation from the Holy Spirit (God) because of sin. God nailed our sin to the cross and shed His holy blood to cover us. Let’s look at Acts 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit [God] has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He [God] purchased with His own blood.” Again, the flesh that appeared to Abraham was immortal and could not shed blood (1 Cor 15:20). God had to take on human flesh to shed blood, because without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins (Heb 9:22).

Lone Ranger said: “Please recall that Abraham was prepared to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, on the altar. It wasn't as if Abraham went there himself and lifted the dagger into the air and then paused while he put on a wig and threw himself on the altar before stabbing himself. It just sounds as if The Almighty is displaying split personalities in your scenario and I just cannot get behind that. Isaac was real and was a completely different entity from Abraham.”

Answer: I have a hub called “The RAM for Abraham” I invite you to read. Trinitarians use this passage to propagate Abraham representing the Father and Isaac representing the Son. Who did the RAM represent? Let me tell you, it was the Ram that was sacrificed on that altar as a burnt offering to SAVE Abraham’s offspring, of which we are (Gal 3:29). Burnt offerings were completely consumed by fire, in order to impute the righteousness of God to us (I see this as relational to the baptism of fire). Isaac was to be a burnt offering (Gen 22:2; Lev 1), not a sin offering (Lev 4). Isaac was sinful, just like Abraham, you and I. He could not be a sacrifice for our sin, let alone our righteousness. Yes, this story is a ‘picture’ of what God was going to do for us, but it is not to be used to support a polytheistic doctrine of God in three, distinct or separate persons = three gods in unity. In fact, God abhors child sacrifice, which you can read about in my hub "With His Own Blood".

Lone Ranger asked: “How is it in the Book of Revelation that the temple is described as being the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb? (Rev 21:22) "I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb."

“Then again, how do you explain Revelation 22:1 "Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb...."

“Why the differentiation? Why the two thrones? Since Christ arose to heaven and completed His earthly mission, why wouldn't He go back to being The Father once He arrived in heaven? Why confuse the matter?”

Answer: The English word ‘and’ is the Greek word ‘kai’, which means ‘and’ in the sense of ‘even’, ‘also’, 'namely'. God and the Lamb is equal to the usage of ‘God and Savior’ shown in 54 other passages in the Bible. God is also called God and Redeemer (Isa 44:6; 48:17; Ps 78:35; Acts 7:35); the prophets not only called the LORD God God and Savior (Is 45:15; Mic 7:7; 1 Chr 16:35, Ps 65:5; Hab 3:18), the Apostles referred to Jesus as 'God and Savior' (1 Tim 1:1; Tit 2:13; 2 Pet 1:1). In John 14:7, Jesus said, "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also [kai]; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

Speaking of Revelation, note who calls Himself the ‘Alpha and Omega’ and the ‘First and the Last’ in Isa 44:6 (Rev 1:8, 11; 2:8; 21:6 and 22:13). Please pick up your Bible and read these passages. "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no God.” Jesus is both King and Redeemer of Israel. Rev 2:8 states, “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:”. I do not see an ‘s’ on the word ‘throne’ in Rev 22:1. There is one throne. Note who is in the midst of the throne in Rev 7:17? Jesus.

Lone Ranger asked: “Then again, why did The Almighty say that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven, implying that blasphemy against The Father would?”

Answer: There should be no implication of this statement by Jesus. In Mat 12:31 we can see Jesus confirming what I am attempting to share with you. Separate the flesh and Spirit of God. The flesh (the Son of Man) can be blasphemed, but NOT the Holy Spirit (God). The Holy Spirit IS the Father that indwelt the Son. Actually, it was by ‘the finger of God’ Jesus cast out demons, and the religious leaders were accusing Him of casting them out by the spirit of Beelzebub [Satan] (Luke 11:20). That is what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Isn’t it absolutely fascinating to realize ‘the finger of God’ also inscribed the commandments given to Moses (Deut 9:10)?

I AM” delivered Israel from Egypt (Ex 3:14) and Jesus admitted to His people that “Before Abraham was born, I AM [Ego Eimi]” (John 8:58). And this wasn’t the only time they took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy (John 10:33). If you look at the Greek, did you know that Jesus, after His resurrection, calmed the waves as He walked on the water by saying, “Ego Eimi” (John 6:20)?!! Now, read Job 9:8 "Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea..." It's amazing to me today, that to believe Jesus IS the Father in the flesh is considered blasphemous! Really?

Back to your question ~ The Father is not separate from the Holy Spirit; this is WHY ‘the Father’ is NOT typed out in Mat 12:31 (because we understand that the Father IS the Holy Spirit). We are not to blaspheme or lie to God (Acts 5:3-4).

Lone Ranger closed with: "J.D., I thoroughly appreciate all the work you do and I am grateful that you are a badger when it comes to digging for the truth. But, having said that, you must understand that I am a mere mortal that is trying to successfully navigate my way through the universe, but I'm running into a little turbulence at the moment. I mean well, but I am also not the sharpest tool in the shed, which means you have your work cut out for you. :0)

I just need help on this, J.D., because I am just not seeing it. Please be patient with me, because, I too, want to know the truth, but I also can't take that leap of faith without taking a good look first.

May God grant you grace and thanks again for all the hard work and excellent research! - L.R."

Lone Ranger, I am your sister. I am walking in your shoes and perhaps God will bear fruit in my efforts to those, like you, who are seeking. I have many, many more hubs on this subject. Please read the links provided in each one, which will lead you to other links. Just click on any of the links provided in this hub in blue as a great start ~ Again, I have only summarized here the answers to your questions, to the best of my English ability. There is so much more to the revelation of Who God is. I pray you will glean what the LORD provides and continue to prayerfully ask to grow into the knowledge of Him, your Creator God, LORD, Savior, Redeemer, Provider, Protector, Comforter, Friend…oh, God is so awesome!! In His great love, JD.

If you must use the word 'Triune' or 'Trinity', understand...

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Comments 73 comments

WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 5 years ago from Space Coast

"I and the Father are one."


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I just love you, WD Curry 111!! You KNOW what YeHoWsHua said and embrace it ~ while the Jews of His day knew also and were greatly offended by it! Hallelujah to the One, True God, our LORD and Savior!! (1 John 5:20) I praise God for you!!


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 5 years ago from Space Coast

It took some doing, but we are on the same page. "Lean not on your own understanding."

You are obviously a person of prayer. I need more.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I WILL pray for you, brother. To God be the glory! He wants His children to KNOW Him and embrace Him.


Sunnie Day 5 years ago

Dear Judah's daughter I am bookmarking this..I love the way you explain things and you certainly have a gift for teaching. Thank you.

God bless,

Sunnie


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Oh Sunnie Day, what a joy you are to my heart. I appreciate your encouragement. I pray all who read will find this enlightening and that they will ponder these things, asking God to confirm. May they rejoice in the great love of our LORD God and Savior. I love you, sister, and God bless you as you have blessed me.


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 5 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

Judah's Daughter dear sister: In your responding to Lone Ranger, you have graciously shared Our Father God's Holy Word in answering his questions. God bless you dear sister and continue to build up and strengthen you faith and your knowledge of Him. As I was reading through the dialogue, I too was thinking of how I would have answered, and several other scriptures came to mind but your responses served Our Father just as well.


christ4ever profile image

christ4ever 5 years ago from a life in sin saved by the Lord's grace - we are blessed with the ministry in Florida & Georgia

In the Lord's peace we have ALL understanding (Phil 4:7)... Most often we try to over-complicate things (especially in pertaining to matters of a divine nature). That is why scripture refers to many of these type of facts about the Lord as the "mysteries of God" (1 Corinthians 4:1; Colossians 2:2; Revelation 10:7).

“Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?" (Job 11:7 NKJ)

Probably only an omniscient God can truly understand or grasp much of this mystery, so therefore a lot of it is left completely unanswered until some point in the future when all things will be revealed to us (when we can handle it).

Until then, he gives us HIS PEACE so that we do not trouble our minds with the more intricate details - If we cannot fully grasp something of the divine nature, then we should merely accept that it is not meant to be understood at this time (and be left with peace about it). This is the true wisdom in the Lord - FAITH and Acceptance.

Otherwise, this article was excellently written! A great read and explanation into some of the "mystery" that we all are curious about at times (with good scripture references too) Up and awesome!... Blessings always in His peace - Rev.Ted


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 5 years ago from HubPages, FB

JD, no Jesus is not the Father.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi brother Dave ~ thank you for your kindness. I hope Lone Ranger comes by soon. It's always a blessing to know you've come by to read and I appreciate your comments. God bless you.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi dear Christ4ever ~ it's a blessing to hear from you! The world of Christiandom is doctrinally divided on so many things, the Oneness of God being paramount. However, if we know that Jesus is God and Jesus is our Lord and Savior, we are doing well. There are mysteries in the Bible and yet God chooses to reveal things to each one of His children, as we are able to receive, amen? His grace is sufficient.

Remember when He told His disciples, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now"? We can't possibly receive more than we can bear. What we don't understand will remain a mystery until we are given understanding ~ if the LORD wills. Jesus said in Mat 13:11 "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted."

We will continue to pray and grow and live by faith. I serve One God, YHWH my Savior and LORD. Ps 23:1 "The LORD [YHWH] is my Shepherd" - "I AM [Ego Imi] the Good Shepherd" (John 10:11), spoken by Jesus. Amen and amen. God bless you and thank you for the VOTE UP!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Vladimir, Eze 2:5 “For whether they hear or refuse to hear for they are a rebellious house...” Let the Word speak:

Isa 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His NAME shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

John 14:7, 9 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also [kai]; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." “Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; HOW CAN YOU SAY, 'Show us the Father '?”

Isa 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I AM the First and I AM the Last; APART from Me THERE IS NO GOD." Rev 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of Him who IS the First and the Last, who DIED and came to life again."

Rev 1:8 “I AM the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, ‘who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Rev 21:7 “Then He said to me, ‘It is done. I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I WILL GIVE to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.” John 4:14 Jesus said, “whoever drinks the water I GIVE him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I GIVE him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Isa 44:24 "This is what the LORD says--your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I AM the LORD, who has made ALL things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF." John 1:3 “All things were made by Him [Jesus]; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.”

Acts 20:28 "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of GOD, which HE BOUGHT with HIS OWN BLOOD."

1 Tim 6:15 "which He will display at the proper time—He who is the blessed and ONLY SOVEREIGN, the King of kings and Lord of lords" Jude 1:4 "For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and DENY Jesus Christ our ONLY SOVEREIGN and LORD [Kurios/Yehovah]."

1 Cor 12:3 "No one can say Jesus is LORD (Kurios/Yehovah), except by the Holy Spirit".


Lone Ranger 5 years ago

Wow, J.D., you have really outdone yourself this time!!! :0)

I am speechless! What a gift!

I don't know what to say other than I am going to have to read what you have written above multiple times. It may be a few days before I can digest everything you have listed, but I will get to it first thing in the morning.

And, a big "Thank You" to the community of believers who are also helping out.

Best wishes to all - L.R.


Lone Ranger 5 years ago

Vladimir said, "JD, no Jesus is not the Father."

-------------------------

My friend, why do think that Jesus is not the Father? I honestly don't know, but I would like to read more about why you believe this way. - L.R.


Lone Ranger 5 years ago

J.D., my response to your awesome article is gone. It was here a moment ago and now it's M.I.A.. Any thoughts?


Lone Ranger 5 years ago

J.D., both the posts that I have left over the past hour are missing. Do you have any idea what is happening?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi brother Lone Ranger! I have 'pre-approved' comments set on my comments capsule BECAUSE there are many who HATE this teaching and flat out reject it. I once believed in the 'Trinity' because everyone said Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, that He is ONE. That's truth, but when I later found out that it REALLY teaches that the Father is NOT the Son; the Son is NOT the Father and neither ARE the Holy Spirit, that equals THREE gods, not One, singular God. I then asked God to answer my questions, because in my heart I knew He is ONE God, One invisible and visible Person. He has answered my questions and is still walking with me and teaching me, even though the doctrine of the 'Trinity' is so paramount in this latter-day church. In my hub, "Should You Believe in the Trinity? 1 of 2" I go into the root of the teaching and begin to expose its origins. I can only remain true to the LORD and what He's shown me; there is no turning with Him. I so appreciate your heart for the LORD and willingness to take it all in and let Him sort it out for you. He loves you dearly; that I know ~ because you genuinely love Him. Be blessed as you go, for you are never alone. JD


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 5 years ago from Space Coast

That's the kicker . . . Jesus is and is not the Father. The Father is and is not the son. God is one. There are three persons. Everyone is right and no one has any idea of what we are talking about . . . for real. Can you get your mind around the fact that Christ holds all things together? Christ is actually the force that scientist are searching for in their quest to find the mono-pole.

God is not limited by space or time. We are. God is quantum as demonstrated in the lyrics of a well known hymn, "We will stand in scenes of Glory to sing the new new song. it will be the old old story that we have loved so long!"


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi WD Curry 111 - Mat 13:20-21

It appears you are oscillating between Jesus being the Father, which means the Father came in the flesh, and yet you are also saying the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit are three, separate persons. It cannot be both. The Father is Spirit, the Holy Spirit that took on flesh, the Son. He is the same God, not three persons. I can accept that Christ holds all things together, for He is the Almighty, our Creator.


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 5 years ago from Space Coast

Wanna bet?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Bet on what? See, if you take water in its liquid form and freeze it, it becomes ice. If you melt and boil the ice, it becomes steam. This is all done with the same water. Trinitarian theology teaches apples, oranges and pineapple = three different fruits, each different than the other. They squeeze all the juice out of each and blend them together, calling it 'fruit juice', of which they drink. It is neither pure apple juice, pure orange juice or pure pineapple juice. So, attempt to explain how three distinct and separate persons that are not the other(s) = One, Pure God.


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 5 years ago from Space Coast

You are trying to apply the limits of Greek Logic to the unlimited God of the Hebrews. Do you want to answer a question with logic?

Jesus cried out from the cross, “My God, My God, Why do you forsake me?” Who was Jesus addressing?

You are a Bible scholar. Should you be standing over me, and teaching me the Word? You are stubborn. You should be quiet, listen to the truth, and learn.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

WD Curry 111, I'm not here to contend. My writing is to share with those who are asking, as Lone Ranger. I didn't force you to come to read and you have the choice to disagree. You asked me a question that is already answered in this hub. It makes me wonder if you even read it? I don't stand over you ~ I stand next to you. We are all at the foot of the cross and Jesus is LORD.


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 5 years ago from Space Coast

nice try. You are here to contend.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

WD Curry 111, Job 13:8 (KJV) "Will ye accept His person? Will ye contend for God?" I will contend FOR God, but not against you. I love you, as I said. I have prayed for you, as I said. I pray peace to your heart.


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 5 years ago from Space Coast

You want to share your interpretation and contend with the truth. You did not answer the question accurately, or even comprehensively. You went into your esoteric interpretation .

Mary?

Read psalm 22. It starts out,"My God, My God, Why do you forsake me . . ." It goes on to describe the scene being played out before all of the witnesses that were present at the Crucifixion. Mary was there, but it had little to do with her at that point, she was a witness. Jesus was authenticating himself as the Messiah.

You need to come to terms with the absolute fact that you don't understand the nature of God, or know how to explain Him. God is one, yet The Trinity is real.

You would do better to focus on the Holy Spirit for awhile. In the same breath that the prophet said, "Everlasting Father" . . . he called him "Wonderful Counselor" (Holy Spirit). So Jesus is the Son, The Father and the Holy Spirit. Of course you don't comprehend. No one ever has, and no one ever will. You do not have the mystery of Christ solved. You are confused, yet you have set yourself up as a teacher.

I explained to you before that Satan hates the Trinity. It is a point of contention. You are here to contend against the Trinity, and that is not advisable.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

WD Curry 111, you stated, "So Jesus is the Son, The Father and the Holy Spirit." Yes and amen.


jreuter profile image

jreuter 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon

Glad to see someone here is fighting for correct doctrine. Thanks WD Curry 111. JD, we've been over this before, so I'm being repetitive, but orthodoxy and theology matters, and this is FALSE theology and heretical teaching, plain and simple. I'm amazed that someone can twist scripture and completely ignore countless writing of patristic fathers on the subject so stubbornly. Sabellianism was defeated many, many years ago, for good reason: The argument was baseless from a scriptural standpoint. I suggest taking a course on patristic theology from your local seminary. It should be a real eye-opener.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

jreuter, I think last time we had a comment discussion I had asked if you would write a hub, proving that God is three, separate persons, rather than One, singular God. Have you read the scriptures I posted above to Vladimir? How can you refute that Jesus is the Father, the LORD God Almighty? Jesus is the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is the Father. He is "I AM".

So, if you want to convince me that Jesus is not the Father and He is not the Holy Spirit, write something scriptural that will back up your doctrine. Of course, you won't be able to use the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7 - added to the Bible - check out the Greek) or prove that Jesus commanded to baptize in the name of a three-person Godhead in Mat 28:19, a command not one of the Apostles ever followed.

As I said, believing God is One rather than three persons is a HATED theology by latter-day Trinitarians. And no sooner did I state that, WD Curry 111 and now you have come along to confirm it. May God open your mind to understand the scriptures (Luke 24:45).


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

WD Curry 111 and jreuter, I've just posted a video called "A Jewish Christian Explains the Holy Trinity". I do not use the word 'Trinity' in teaching about the identity of God because of the corruption to it - that God is three, separate persons, each God = 3 gods. That is incorrect. The invisible Spirit (God the Father) manifested Himself in visible form (as to Abraham) and to shed His OWN blood for us, in His Son. I pray we 'get it' and explain Him correctly, for we are called to be His witnesses.


Lone Ranger 5 years ago

Greetings to all!

Please know that I am still conducting research on this matter as I said I would, yet I still have not come to a conclusion and it may be some time before I do. I must admit that the vastness of the Almighty just blows me away and there is truly none like Him!

I would like to say at this time that I deeply appreciate all the insightful perspectives and the high level of scholarship from each of the above commentators who have devoted their time to address one of the greatest questions known to man. I am indeed in good company!

Having said that, I would like to keep this friendly debate in perspective, not for my benefit, but for those who may not understand that we are not questioning Christ Yeshua as the Only Beggoten Son of God and Savior of the world. It is, however, upon this belief that our eternal hope and salvation rests, and not whether Christ is also The Father.

Best wishes to all and keep fighting the good fight!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi brother Lone Ranger ~ I have added a couple of videos that may give you some more important insight in your research.

Speaking of the Savior:

Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me."

Hosea 13:4 "Yet I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me."

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

I appreciate you and know God is faithful to answer us.


VOICE CIW 5 years ago

The scriptures teach that God is One, and that beside Him there is no God. The question might arise, " How could God have any felowship before finite creatures came into existence?" The answer is that the Divine Unity is a compound unity, and that in this unity there are really Three distinct Persons, every One of whom is the Godhead, and yet is supremely conscious of the other Two. So we see that there was an Eternal Fellowship before any finite creatures were created, therefore, God was never alone. Not that there are three Gods, all of whom are independent and self-existing. The three cooperate with one mind and purpose, so that in the truest sense of the word they are " One ." The Father creates, the son redeems, and the Holy Spirit sanctifies, and yet in each operation the Three are present. The Father is pre-eminently Creator, yet the Son and the Spirit are described as co-operating in that work. The Son is preeminently the Redeemer, yet God the Father and the Spirit are described as sending the Son to redeem. The Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier, yet the Father and the Son co-operate in that work. I could go on, me and Judah's Daughter had this debate before. I believe Judah's Daughter to be very knowledgeable in the Word of God, but you have to let the Spirt give you insight into the Word, and push self out the way (in other words your personal feelings have no place in the Word of God). Judah's Daughter I love you in the Lord, but, you are leading people astray. It is true that the word " Trinity " does not appear in the New Testament, it is a theological expression, invented during the second century to describe the Godhead. But the planet Jupiter existed before it was so named, and the doctrine of the Trinity was in the Bible before it was technically called the Trinity. Give God All The Glory!


Lone Ranger 5 years ago

Thanks, J.D., but unfortunately I still have an old dial-up connection and even 5 minute videos can take a couple of hours to download.

Thank you for the other verses...I'll be sure to incorporate them into my study! :0)

Right now I'm going to try to print your wonderful essay, so I can have it at my fingertips.

Best wishes - L.R.


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

VOICE CIW,

The Greatest of ALL Commandments: Mark 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."

You said, “The scriptures teach that God is One, and that beside Him there is no God.” That’s the only scripturally sound thing you’ve stated here.

Not to cause you offense, but the rest of what you wrote is nothing more than indoctrination. You are writing of fellowship God the Father had with the other two members of the Trinity before finite creatures came into existence; you’ve called God a “compound unity” of three, distinct Persons. Then, you contradict all this by stating, “Not that there are three Gods, all of whom are independent and self-existing”. You’re preaching fruit juice, not pure water. You have breath inside you; you speak words; you have a body. Does that make you three, distinct persons? Absolutely not.

Let’s look up the synonyms for ‘distinct’ for a moment: DISPARATE, DISSIMILAR, DISTANT, DIFFERENT, DISTINCTIVE, DISTINGUISHABLE, DIVERSE, NONIDENTICAL, OTHER, UNALIKE, UNLIKE

Let’s now look up the antonyms for ‘distinct’: ALIKE, IDENTICAL, INDISTINGUISHABLE, KIN, KINDRED, LIKE, PARALLEL, SAME, SIMILAR

You believe in the synonyms; I believe in the antonyms. I cannot convince you that God is One (invisible Spirit, visible Christ). I say this as respectfully as I can: if you are unwilling to shed your Roman Catholic, Nicene indoctrination, that is your own rebellion. Telling me I am leading people astray does not make it truth. I came out of this false, man-made teaching, by the Teaching of the Holy Spirit, and will not return to ignorance. I pray the same for those who are genuinely seeking to know the One, True God.


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Awe, that's a bit of a challenge, Lone Ranger ~ however, I have written several hubs, so you have a lot of information to read and test. Again, I pray that what I've written will bear the fruit of the Spirit. I use plenty of scripture in all of my writings, so everything can be tested by the Word. It takes labor to look up the Greek and Hebrew wording, compare the Old and New Testaments and cross-reference ~ all of which I have done.

This doesn't mean there won't be those who simply choose to deny what the Bible clearly states, for some have such deeply ingrained indoctrination, they are blinded by anything in the Word that clearly challenges those beliefs. This is why we must be born of God and be taught by Him. I don't know even the two men that are teaching in the videos above; they don't know me. The same Spirit taught them what He's taught me. This is a 'sign' unto me and even to them, that God is able to teach anyone willing to learn ~ and we bear witness to the Truth. Praise God and He is with you. JD


Lone Ranger 5 years ago

Hi, J.D.:

Just out of curiosity, what reference are you using when you look up the meaning of Greek words in the Bible? I think that would be a wise investment for any serious Bible student to own. Where would a guy like me, be able to score a book like that?


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Lone Ranger! To have a hard copy book, I recommend the Strongs Comprehensive or Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. It is based on the KJV. It's more than a dictionary. You look up a word (say 'hell') and it will list all the scriptures that use that word. Each verse reference will have a number next to it, which you can look up in the Hebrew (OT) or Greek (NT) dictionaries in the back of the book. For example, the English word 'hell' shows several scriptures that can be grouped under four numbers = four definitions. This word doesn't always mean the same thing, depending on the verse. When you read the verses again, knowing which definition of 'hell' applies, you have greater understanding. Cross-referencing is important, as well. Usually, these are listed in the margin of your Bible.

I also use biblos.com, which gives you various English translations (NIV, NAS, KJV, etc), and has a 'parallel' tab to show a single verse in all the translations on one page. Cross-references to that verse are provided on the right side of the page. There is a tab that takes you to the Hebrew or Greek text (with English translation) and when you click on any word, it will take you to its definition: http://bible.cc/isaiah/9-6.htm The Strongs definitions are included.

I have another hub that may assist you called "How To Do An Inductive Bible Study" http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/How-to-do-...

I will be happy to assist you in any way I can. Feel free to email me at judahsdaughter@gmail.com. Bless you!


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Lone Ranger, if you've already printed this, please note I had the burnt and sin offering references backwards (Lev 1 is the burnt offering; Lev 4 is the sin offering) in the answer about Abraham and Isaac. I had also accidentally typed 'immortal' flesh in reference to God's manifestation as the Word in the NT, and have corrected it to read 'mortal flesh'. Sorry about that! :-/ God bless you as you continue your study.


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jreuter 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon

Consider that the entirety of Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism hold to the doctrine of the Trinity. Furthermore, consider that the Holy Spirit was promised to deliver the early church into all truth. So essentially, you are contending that within ONE generation of the apostles, church doctrine was effectively corrupted and has remained so for nearly 2000 years? Honestly, I've already given you enough scripture to topple your contention of modalism. This controversy took up very little of the apostolic and patristic fathers' time, and for good reason: The New Testament is indisputably clear on the distinct personhoods of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Every verse I've ever seen you quote merely validates the oneness of God, a oneness that trinitarians fully agree with. Can you offer any reasonable response to Christ's prayers to the Father, to John 17:5 (and now glorify me and together with yourself Father, with the glory I had with you before the world was) and John 17:24 (For you loved me before the foundation of the world). In John 14, Christ says he will "go to the Father," and yet somehow we should read that as he will "transform into the Father?"

How about the Son and the Father sending the Spirit?

John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

So, the Father is sending Himself? Does this verse really support three modes?

And Christ has his own throne, and yet he is but one mode of God?

Acts 2:32- Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Jn 16:19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

Wouldn't Christ, being one mode, merely transform into the Father, not sit at the right hand of him?

Shouldn't John 8:16-20 be the end of this debate?

"I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bear witness of me" (John 8:16-18).


Lone Ranger 5 years ago

Good afternoon, J.D.!

I have a quick question that is un-related to the topic at hand. Could you please tell me what those greenish/yellow numbers next to the title of this article means (74). I see numbers each time I read a Hub article, but have no idea what the meaning of it is. Thanks - L.R.


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Lone Ranger, I'm thinking you're asking about the numbers next to the Hub Title? That is a 'hub score', which is based on many factors. Currently, this score is 75, but can go up or down :-)


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

jreuter, I really should write a hub, but this is pertinent to this hub:

The idea of a three-person god has been around a very long time, long before Tertullian (150 - 225 AD), who coined the term in regard to our God in 200 AD, just after converting to Catholicism in 195 AD. The early Catholic congregants were subject to the brainwashing of the Catholic Papacy, until the Reformation in the 16th century. It was Catholic monks/priests that translated the Hebrew and Greek texts, even obtained the well-known Codex 61, created in 1520 (1 John 5:7), in order to insert the ‘Trinity’ into the Latin Textus Receptus, from where the revered King James Version was translated in 1611. This is 2011, so we’re talking the latter-day Church has only had the KJV to rely on for 400 years.

Eastern Orthodoxy is officially called the Orthodox Catholic Church and Protestant churches are yet ‘daughters’ of the RCC with respect to the doctrine of the Trinity, infant baptism, etc. There is absolute, historical proof, even admissions by the Catholic Papacy, that the Bible texts of 1 John 5:7 and Mat 28:19 were altered by them. Mat 28:19 originally stated, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in My name” and that’s exactly what they did (Acts 2:38; 10:48; 19:5). Notice the word ‘name’ is singular, even in the alteration. Consider how they’ve taken out the second commandment in their Catechism set, because teaching their little converts to worship idols is what they do. They are corrupt, and if they weren’t we’d all be worshiping the Pope and those idols today.

Here is a good read on the history of pagan ‘trinities’ that existed before and at the time the RCC brought the doctrine into the Textus Receptus: http://mikeblume.com/pagantr.htm

Let’s list a few of the Oneness patriarchs of the early church, prior to Tertullian (200 AD) and the Council of Nicea (325 AD): First of all, did you know even Tertullian admitted that Oneness doctrine constituted the majority of believers in his day?

Here’s the list:

Ignatius of Antioch (AD 35 or 50-115) “Disciple of the Apostles”; Polycarp of Smyrna (AD 69-155) “Disciple of the Apostle John”; Noetus of Smyrna (AD 130); Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 135-200); Praxeas (AD 150-220); Sabellius (AD 180); Callistus, Bishop of Rome (AD 220); Beryllus (AD 240); Dionysius, Bishop of Rome (AD 265)

Then along comes the Council of Nicea (AD 325), which required all Oneness, Monotheistic believers to be re-baptized for re-ordination or have their property confiscated; thus Oneness, Monotheistic believers went underground.

You stated, “the New Testament is indisputably clear on the distinct personhoods of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Let me tell you something; the NT cannot be interpreted correctly without understanding the Old Testament, and if those alterations had not been made (who knows how many there are?), we wouldn’t have this ‘confusion’ or debate.

You then said, “Every verse I've ever seen you quote merely validates the oneness of God, a oneness that trinitarians fully agree with.” If the scriptures validate God’s oneness (one Spirit, one Person), and if you as a Trinitarian agree with me, then why are we contending? Obviously, the latter part of your statement is not accurate.

Regarding your questions from John 17:5, 24: Do you see the word, “NOW” in John 17:5? “NOW, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.” To have greater understanding, let’s go up to verse 1: “Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, ‘Father, THE HOUR HAS COME; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You.” God knew us and loved us even before we were born (Ps 139:16), which is the understanding of John 17:24. God predestined Himself coming in the flesh of Mary to shed His own, holy blood for us on the cross (Acts 20:28), thus we can see confirmation of this in Rev 13:8 “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” The Lamb was not slain until that day at Calvary. Jesus was in the world, having come forth from the Father (begotten of a woman, born under the Law – Gal 4:4), so He returned to His pre-flesh state, which is Spirit and is yet the spiritual image of the invisible God. Consider His invisible appearance to Saul on the road to Damascus (Acts 26).

Regarding John 14:26, it is critical we take note of verse 18 where Jesus said, “I will not leave you as orphans; I WILL COME TO YOU.” Note the Greek word for ‘orphan’ is ‘orphanous’, while the KJV used the word ‘comfortless’. Hmmm. Either way, the Comforter IS the Holy Spirit. In addition, an orphan is a Fatherless child. We know Jesus was speaking of the coming of the Holy Spirit, who IS the Father. The Father was to send the Spirit in this verse, the same Spirit Jesus breathed upon His disciples in John 20:22.

Regarding John 16:19 and Acts 2:32, the ‘right hand of God’ is the ‘power of God’ (Ex 15:6; Ps 89:13; Heb 1:3, 8 – and note Mat 27:29). God is like pure water, poured into Christ, poured into us.

Where do you see more than one throne in Revelation? I covered this in my hub.

To answer you on John 8:16-20, we need to look up the Greek word for ‘witness/testify’, which is G3141 martyria: something evidential, i.e. (gen.) evidence given or (spec.) the Decalogue (in the sacred Tabernacle):-to be testified, testimony, witness. This is where we get the word ‘martyr’. This type of witness points to signs of confirmation or evidence, signs of conduct, as well as accountability of those to whom the signs are made manifest (Mat 8:4; 1 Cor 1:6-8; 2 Cor 1:12; Mar 6:11). We can now compare vs. 19: “So they were saying to Him, ‘Where is Your Father?’ Jesus answered, ‘You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also [kai]" with what Jesus stated in 14:7-11. In vs. 9, He said, “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?” and then said in vs. 11, “Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.”


Lone Ranger 5 years ago

J.D. questioned, Jreuter:

"Where do you see more than one throne in Revelation?"

-------------------

Now, I know I'm a can short of a six-pack, but Revelation 22:1 seems to be pretty clear:

"Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb."

And again...

Revelation 22:3 "There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his bond-servants will serve Him...."

I do not claim to be an English major, in fact, I was raised speaking "pig-latin", but that sounds like John is talking about two thrones to me. Am I wrong?

Best wishes - L.R.


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Lone Ranger, you asked this question, quoting the two verses, which are answered in this hub. However, we'll delve a little deeper: Look at the word 'throne'. It is singular. The Greek word for 'throne' in both these passages is 'thronou' (singular); however when the 24 elders sit on their thrones in Rev 4:4, the Greek word is 'thronous' (plural). In fact, they are sitting around the throne (thronou) of God.

God and the Lamb is equivalent to God and [a] Savior or God and Redeemer (Isa 44:6; 48:17; Ps 78:35; Acts 7:35). There are not two Persons sitting on two thrones, nor are there two Persons sitting on one throne. There is One God sitting on one throne. Note the latter part of Rev 22:3 "and His bond-servants will serve Him...." not "Them".

Isaiah 45:21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me."

Titus 2:15 "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

2 Pet 1:1 "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

And, if anyone think there is a God separate from a Savior, I shared with you the following verses above:

Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me."

Hosea 13:4 "Yet I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me."

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

I pray this is helpful to you. God bless you as you continue to pray and study. Your sister in Him, JD.


Lone Ranger 5 years ago

Hi, J.D.!

For the sake of clarification you quoted:

"Isaiah 45:21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me."

----------------------

Now, my dad always told me that I was a pint shy of a full gallon, but taking my cerebral limitations into account, it should come as no surprise that I see something a little different in the aforementioned verse.

Could it be that, King Arthur, for instance, may be regarded as both King and savior, not by personally fighting to free an oppressed people from tyranny, but by sending his finest general to do his bidding? Why should he not then be regarded as both king and savior?

It's just a thought. Best wishes - L.R.


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Judah's Daughter 5 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Lone Ranger! Well, when God said, "There is NONE except ME", that's what He means, amen?

Acts 20:28 states, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which THE HOLY SPIRIT has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of GOD which HE purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD." Jesus (visible) is the transcendent God (Spirit), Who is KING of kings and LORD of lords. There is only ONE LORD (Eph 4:5) and the LORD is the Spirit (2 Cor 3:17) and Jesus Christ is LORD (1 Cor 12:3; Luke 2:11).

I invite you read my hub "Jesus Christ, Our ONLY Sovereign" (on my home page), which will show you that as Simon the priest held the baby Jesus in His arms, Whom Timothy and Jude testified was our ONLY Soveriegn, he prayed to the Sovereign LORD. How is that possible? Spirit and flesh...SAME GOD. What an AWESOME God we have!! Praise Him forevermore!!


Skye 4 years ago

JD God Bless you my sister. In reading the comments I got such mixed answers on what I believe is pure and simple truth and not complex. Your hub to me is powerful truth and sound backed with Gods Holy word and instruction manual for living. I agree with you and may God Bless you sis for the dedication and hours you put into sharing the truth of Almighty God and leading the flock.

When I read a few comments I got lost in words and do not understand what the argument is?? God is God. There is one God Almighty. He came in the flesh and is manifest in us when invited in as Lord and Savior of our lives. The Holy Spirit is our helper teacher comforter guide to direct us. When Jesus ascended into heaven He said I leave you not alone for IAM with you. The comments threw me for a loop and JD I was shaken. It seems that all are saying the same thing yet saying it with different words.

The enemy tries to come in and stir up doubt. He is a liar and thief doomed to judgment of hell.

God is sovereign. God is one and like you use the water, ice cubes so on for example the clarity is so simple. It seems the comments are more like a play on words getting all mixed up in a Blender. I do not understand how it is so difficult to understand God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The enemy tries to come in and twist words and raise questions and or doubt. Well he is defeated to hell and the victory is in Christ Jesus. U Keep on sister. u will Phil 4:13. Keep on Children of GOD Almighty.

The most wonderful gift in all of time Jesus Christ. Emanuel, God with us who was sent by God the Father for the sins of the World. Amen. Merry Christmas JD. I pray you and yours are Blessed in Glorious abundance sister.

I just love you and your love for Christ flows in your heart and Spirit to share the truth of the fresh living waters. While the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three they are one God head. Hugs Galore.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Skye ~ the heart of the matter is not whether Jesus is God or the Holy Spirit is God or the Father is God. As this hub title addresses, the question at hand is "Is Jesus the Father"? I could write another hub called "Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?" And I could write another hub, "Is the Father the Holy Spirit?" YES, He is. On the other hand, Catholicized Trinity theology teaches the answer is NO to these three questions.

So, the question is, is God One (1) invisible Holy Spirit, visible in the Person of Jesus Christ (Old and New Testaments), or is God three (3) eternal Persons in unity, "one" as the body of Christ is one? "Godhead" is the English translation for the Greek word Deity. Do we have One Deity or a three-in-one Deity? Do we have One King or three kings? (Oh, I can just hear them now, "We three kings of orient are..." - the Bible does not even specifiy 'three' kings)...Do we have the Living Water living in us or fruit juice?

God knows our hearts. He knows our understanding and why we have the interpretations we do. All that really matters is, do we entrust our salvation to the LORD, Jesus Christ? I just know that when I stand before Jesus, I will be standing before the Almighty God and won't even think to ask Him to introduce me to the Father, let alone the Holy Spirit. He's already in me, praise God and I know Him. The LORD is my Shepherd (Ps 23:1). In Jesus Christ dwells the fullness of the Deity bodily. Always did and always will. He IS..."I AM", YHWH. Halleluyah!!

I appreciate you, sister, and I love you in the love our LORD, Jesus Christ. May He bless you always


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 4 years ago from Space Coast

I have been otherwise occupied for awhile. I am humbled by your response. The fruit is always evident. Your prayers mean more to me than doctrine. The Lord knows were are "seeing through a glass dimly". Thank you.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Bless your heart, WD Curry 111 ~ His banner over us is LOVE, amen!! I am continually in prayer for the Seed of Truth to root deeply in our soil. All praise to His Name!


chevyssbowtie 4 years ago

Hello JD, I really appreciate you standing for the Truth about the One God, and refuting the paganistic teaching of the trinity. I also am absolutely a one God believer.

I love how the trinitarians use all the One God scriptures to try to prove their theory, like other hubbers around here.

but nevertheless very good hub and keep up the good work!


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I very much appreciate your uplifting encouragement, chevyssbowtie! Thank you and I'm glad we stand united in the name of our LORD, Jesus Christ!!! God bless you always.


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 4 years ago from Space Coast

Great video, thanks!


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Praise God! Not sure if you watched them all, WD Curry 111, but I am thoroughly blessed by all of them. Love to share the blessing!!


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 4 years ago from Space Coast

You go, girl!


Cathleena Beams profile image

Cathleena Beams 4 years ago from Lascassas, Tennessee

Interesting read. I believe in the Holy Trinity of God. God in three persons. Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Heavenly Father. Romans 8:34 refers to Jesus being at the right hand of the Father. As your profile picture displays, I think of God the Father as the Lion and God the Son as the Lamb. This is a very thought provoking hub and had me digging to find that verse mentioned here in this post.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I'm glad you found this interesting, Cathleena Beams, and I understand why you believe in the 'Holy Trinity of God...God in three persons, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Heavenly Father." One reason is due to the traditional teaching of this concept since Tertullian first coined the term in the year 200 AD, after converting to Catholicism in 195 AD. The 'Trinity' language was actually added to the text of the Holy Bible in such verses as Mat 28:19 and 1 John 5:7-8, admittedly, by the Catholic Church in the well-known Latin 'Textus Receptus' from where all Bible translations were produced. Though Protestants left the Catholic church, they took this doctrine with them.

Jesus Christ is the Lion of Judah (Rev 5:5), and we are His sheep (John 10:27; Ps 23:1; John 10:14). This is how I view my picture. There is only One God. He became the Lamb as you and I are lambs, in order to redeem us from Satan's power back to the kingdom relationship He gave us in the Garden - God ruling over man who will rule over the earth.

Let's take a moment to look at "God and the Lamb" in Rev 21:22. It is translated (not interpreted - there is a difference) as "I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb ARE its temple." The Greek word translated 'ARE' is 'estin', which is actually the word 'IS' [singular]. You can view this in the interlinear link here (from biblos.com):

http://biblos.com/revelation/21-22.htm

Let's go on to Rev 22:3-4 "There will no longer be any curse; and the throne [singular] of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His (Whose? God's or the Lamb's?) bond-servants will serve Him (Who? God or the Lamb?); they will see His face (Whose face?), and His name (Whose name?) will be on their foreheads." There is only One Throne, One God, who is both God and the Lamb. He is not two or three separate/distinct 'persons'. God is invisible Spirit, visible in the Person of Jesus Christ.

I pray this will make some sense to you...I love you in the love of the LORD (and there is only One LORD - Eph 4:5). God bless.


Cathleena Beams profile image

Cathleena Beams 4 years ago from Lascassas, Tennessee

I believe in One God and One Lord as you, and that Jesus is the sacrificial lamb. His blood was shed for us, the atonement for our sins. Jesus is God incarnate (in the flesh). This is complex to us because we are not God and we do not understand Him completely. His ways are higher than ours. I don't think our beliefs are that far apart. You believe in Jesus (the Son of God and man), in the Father, and in the Holy Spirit, right? If so, we believe the same, that they are three forms of the one and only Living God.


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Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Yes, there is only one Living LORD God and His name is "I AM" ~ HalleluYah! Blessings to you, Cathleena.


L7 3 years ago

Ummmm, wow. I actually read the whole post and all comments and I must say that your explanation of Gods oneness makes more logical sense tome than my indoctrination of of the Trinity ever did. I cant say I'm yet fully convinced. You have made some convincing arguments. I wish I had read this post first before 'Should you believe in the Trinity. " Anyway I have some thinking and praying to do.

You have actually made sense of everything except Jesus prayer in the garden. I think to me the most compelling argument u made was when you said why don't we (Trinitarians) believe in a Godhead of 7, or however u put it, because of His many manifestations in the OT. In the past I would have stated some to be theophanies and some to be christophanies. But now, well, I just don't know. I just know I want to believe in Gods true character and not the doctrines of men, even if they are almost 2000 yrs old.


L7 3 years ago

Also in a completely unrelated subject, who are some of your favorite commentors and classic authors?


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Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi there L7 ~ What we know about Jesus' prayer in the garden is that He was ALONE, right (Mat 26)? His disciples were asked to stay awake and pray with Him, but ~ outside of where Jesus was praying ~ they fell asleep, not only once, but three times. This is why I question whether Jesus actually prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will", as there were no witnesses. And speaking of scriptural witnesses, if we read John 12:27-28, when Jesus is prophesying about His death, He said, "Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 'Father, glorify Your name.' " He just said He would not pray for the Father to save Him from that hour. Kind of contradicts, doesn't it?

Likewise, if we look at John 10:18, Jesus said, "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again."

I went on to read John 12:29-30, which shed even more light on the 'voice' that also spoke at Jesus' mikveh: "Then a voice came out of heaven: 'I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.' So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, 'An angel has spoken to Him.' Jesus answered and said, 'This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes."

If we compare this to the mikveh of Jesus in Mat 3, the dove was one of seven manifestations of God. The "Spirit like a dove" was the sign promised to John the Baptist in John 1:32-33: "John testified saying, 'I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit."

If we read Mat 3:15-16, some think it was Jesus who saw the Holy Spirit descending because the word 'him' is used. However, to align John 1 to Mat 3, we should read, "But Jesus answering said to him [John], 'Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.' Then he [John] permitted Him. After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he [John] saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him".

I may have to add this information into my 'Should You Believe in the Trinity' hub - see, God has shown me so much and as I continue in the Word and in His Spirit, He keeps on confirming the doctrines of error in the 'Trinity' concept. I suppose it's not just for my understanding, as I am convinced; rather, I'm supposed to share it, being ready to give an answer (1 Pet 3:15).

Thank you for reading and commenting. I can't say I have any favorite commentors and classic authors because I'm so protective of being indoctrinated by the teachings of men. I feel safe in the shelter of my LORD.


Oscarlites profile image

Oscarlites 3 years ago from Alabama

The Same day of the ascension was Mathews 28:19 account, Marks 16:15 Account, Lukes 24:45-48 Account AND Acts 1: 1-8 Account, THE SAME DAY. titles were used in the Mathew translation, But the Name Jesus was mentioned in Luke and Mark. the Name of the father THE NAME of the Son and the Name of the Holy Spirit. Acts 4:12 NAME. Authority. Power. It says that that it WAS a mystery, but that the mystery hath been revealed to the brethren. Ephesians 1 & 2 . Colossians 2:9 It IS correct that as when it says that the coming of the Lord be as a thief in the night, But he says YE brethren are NOT in darkness, and you will know.. Is it possible you cannot KNOW absolutely who Jesus is until you have fully recieved him? Trinity is a man made word.

Whats wrong with staying in the Bible? describing truth BY TRUTH? MANY who are taught TRINITY can't seem to live without using it. The Catholics claim all who are trinity. they are very ONLY TRINITY. THEY ARE THE WRITERS OF IT.

Maybe the better question to ask is, can man be saved only using the teaching of the bible? I have no problem describing God simply using the bible,. many of the things written here are very good. they are teachings in the bible.. The writings of man are confusing. they always will be. But Gods word is amazing.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hello, Oscarlites! I very much appreciate your comment. When you asked, "Is it possible you cannot KNOW absolutely who Jesus is until you have fully recieved him?" I have asked myself the same question. It seems evident that the identity of Yeshua is revealed only by Him and not any other way.

Part of the problem is the fact that the Catholic heirarchy indeed altered the New Testament, and admitted to doing so; thus, the reason "titles were used in the Mathew translation, But the Name Jesus was mentioned in Luke and Mark." You are observant by His Spirit to notice this 'Trinitarian" three-fold title in Mat 28:19, rather than the 'name'. What's more blasphemous is that they altered the VERY WORDS OF YESHUA. Our Savior never said those words. The original Greek stated, "Go ye into all the world and make disciples of all nations in My name." This aligns with the other gospels!

I praise God to see yet another of His sheep ~ someone I have never met, yet we agree that there is only one God, who is our Father, our Savior, our Shepherd, our Husband ~ He IS "I AM", who came in the flesh to shed His precious blood for His sheep/children/Bride. He is El Shadday, the Almighty. HalleluYah!!


Oscarlites profile image

Oscarlites 3 years ago from Alabama

Judahs daughter, If people connected the dots even.. it WAS exactly the same day.. I believe it was the day of the ascension. If you could prove its Wasn't the same day OR the same event, then perhaps you could TRY to say they said something different. BUT THIS WAS ABOUT JESUS LAST WORDS IN PERSON AS THE SON OF GOD before his ascension. he HAD ALREADY been glorified.. his Natural body had already been resurrected ( walked through a wall didn't he at the last supper? ok a door.. Natural bodies can't do that. when we are glorified; what did the angels say? the men in white apparel.. said, "why stand ye here gazing at him?" He shall come back in like manner.." and ye also shall be recieved and be like him.. One day we will be transformed like he was through the resurrection. in Fact, WHEN WE have "put on christ" we already have the transforming power within us,.we are already Born again to the resurrection of the dead through being baptized into him.. ( not much here to explain scientifically).. It is ABOVE to the righteous.. through him of course..


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Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

The gospels are consistent, so Mat 28:19 originally was, too (rather than being different). I am only supporting your analysis, Oscarites. I think your comment is inspired and anointed. Thank you and God bless you.


Santressa Medlock profile image

Santressa Medlock 2 years ago from Many, Louisiana

So I have read a lot of the comments to this post and I saw some interesting points. However, I am more confused than enlightened. Lone Ranger asked some good questions and I see where Judah's Daughter answered the questions with scriptures. But I have a question. In Mark 13:32, it states, "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." If Jesus is the Father, how would He not know the day of His return to earth?


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Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Santressa, "nor the Son" is speaking as the Son of Man - no MAN knows the day or the hour, only the Father. Well, Jesus at times spoke as the Son of Man. He prayed as the Son of Man, even, to set the example for the sons of men who become sons of God by faith. Mat 24:36, however, leaves out "nor the Son" in some Greek texts - so did Jesus (as God) really not know the "day nor the hour"?

In John 16:30 Jesus' disciples said to Him, "Now we know that you know everything and that you do not need that anyone should ask you; in this we believe that you have proceeded from God.” (Aramaic Bible in Basic English)

We also know that the Jews had the written Tanakh (the Old Testament), yet were blinded from understanding the Scripture, for in Luke 24:45 Jesus Himself opened the minds of His disciples that they would understand (interpret) the Scriptures. We know Jesus spoke in parables so the wicked would not understand what He was saying, but the righteous would understand.

1 Thes 5:4 "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;"

Did you know that "The Day and Hour No Man Knows" is an idiom for the Feast of Trumpets, also called Rosh Ha Shanah? And what do we read about Jesus' return? It's "the last trump" (1 Cor 15:52) and certainly, we see Jesus returning at the last trump in Rev 16:15-18.

I hope this is helpful to you. Research The Day and Hour No Man Knows and the Feast of Trumpets or Rosh Ha Shanah. God bless you.


Oscarlites profile image

Oscarlites 2 years ago from Alabama

All through the book of revelations it refers to; He that sat on t he throne. not "those". It says that " I John saw one throne, and .. the Lamb sat in the middle of it. " Jude 25 concludes with " now unto the only wise God our savior, be grace and truth now and ever amen."

- the gnostics and mysticism or earlier centuries, innvention's and imaginations, all helped to create the image(s) of one old grey haired man, a younger man, and then a third person, sometimes even shown as a lady, in order to symbolize the holy spirit. three separate human like form/Imagery of three persons of God.

The Bible actually easily and veritably disproves that this could ever be. Not ever not even in the beginning of creation. Friends there is a LOT of cultural and imaginative concepts out there! Are you to tell me Jesus in Luke who was born of Mary, was/ had already been a full grown young man in heaven? he was 'begotten'. He was born. here and now, forever we need to understand that of the flesh, ( the only flesh that represents the Godhead is Jesus the Christ). He was born of Mary, wrapped in swaddling clothes. the rest of him, the "deity" was God incarnate. God became flesh.. Not an already existent second edition of God who magically changes from a full grown existing body, ( GOD IS A SPIRIT AND a spirit DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES) amen anybody? but in the fulness of times God sent forth his son ( conceived of the Holy Ghost in Mary's womb). If they were separate already existent persons/deities then how could God claim fathership? the Holy Spirit is the emanation, or extension of God himself/ singular. When Jesus came as a baby, of the flesh he was just as new of the flesh as you and i when we were born into this world. amen? but undoubtedlyly he was inhabited by the power and spirit of God as what I call the "way" the way of redemption.. the supernatural revelation of God in Christ Jesus. To wit, God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself. simple. why oh why do you have to go back to mans inventions? trinity trinity trinity is and always be an invention of man, who are NOT wise enough to explain God in ANY instance by mans knowledge or imagination! Stay in the Book. Stay in the word of God.

on a comment above, let me add about the commision to go into all the world, preaching.. baptizing them, in the name of ( greek word kai'/even) of the father and (greek word kai'/even) of the son, greek word kai'/even of the Holy ghost. this word kai' implicated one and the same even though it interchanges with 'and', of the vernacular it is referring to the same subject. does this make it easier for you to understand? JD , already you explained who and how the name of Jesus applies here as the NAME above every name. As the Name of authority.. in whom all the fullness of the Godhead dwells.. and the Holy Ghost will come, but not if I don't hurry back to my office in heaven, and which will be sent also in my same name! The work of the invisible comforter or holy spirit is simply the same Holy Spirit of God, NOT a separate Holy Spirit. Not another person, and i laugh to think how you could ever explain to me how/what the holy spirit looks like unless you actually go ahead and explain that a spirit hath not flesh and bones. unless you go ahead and say this is simply another way God has shown himself, get it himself to us as our savior. Did he not do enough already to fashion himself in the form of man, and come to earth to save us, his own people, but he also sends us his divine spiritual gift of a part of himself to live in you, to live in me, the Holy Spirit of the Christ who was and is Our God come down from heaven in the form of man.. and let me drop another rev on ya, that in I cor 15 24; ( please don't get shocked,) but understand that in the end, the office of the sonship is fulfilled. the redemption plan . though always in the mind and heart of God had a specific time it was implemented and a specific time when it is fullfilled.. go ahead a read that scripture if you dare.. will God still exist? yes he said "always".. but that He God, might be "All in all". And to try to make him into something he is not you will get frustrated, you will have to get mad, maybe cry, but please know he has done his best to give you free will, a heart and a mind to understand.. his word to enlighten, and finally he gives you a chance to be of his fold.. Jesus is that true shepherd.. He is that light that lighteth the World.. We had/have a God who as eternal singular deity stood back in his splendor and moved his Eternal self out of the way through this miraculous redemptive plan and gave us this awesome saga and World-rocking event of the Jesus Chronicles. he meant for us to focus on Jesus, for Jesus he says was the same as him/ God. He meant for us to come through him/ Jesus for our salvation and for our healing, and for our redemption. Almighty God managed to personalize it in the most dramatic way ever and always and He is our God. Isaiah 9:6. for unto us a child is born. a son is given. and the government shall be upon his shoulders.. and his name shall be called WONDERFUL, COUNSELOR, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, and THE PRINCE OF PEACE. thank you, Isaiah! I'll believe you even if no one else will! This was given him from God. God was saying way back in yesterday's history, "ISAIAH, I am giving them a gift, someone to embrace and love, who also is me, Isaiah." ( I don't believe Isaiah or the believers of that day had any problem believing when God spoke this to them, do you?)


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hello, bother Oscarlites! My spirit rejoices in reading your comment, for you KNOW the Living God, HalleluYah! I fully agree!! I wanted to just post here some factual information regarding Mat 28:19 because people who know the Living God must also be armed with sharp historical knowledge about this verse, for it is a "weed" that must be exposed:

The Addition of Mat 28:29 Trinitarian Formula

It has been discovered that there are three major biblical manuscripts of the Gospel of Mathew that are written in Hebrew. One of them is a manuscript written during the middle ages, some place during the 5th through the 15th century called Shem Tov Mathew. In 1995, Dr George Howard, Professor of Religion at Georgia University, translated a copy of Shem Tov Mathew’s Hebrew Gospel

Very surprisingly, in Mathew 28:19, there are no three persons, no trinity reference and no Trinitarian formula for baptism.

From verse 16, “After this when the twelve disciples came to Galilee he appeared to them in the mountain where they had prayed (17) When they saw him they worshipped him, but there were some of them who doubted him (18) Jesus drew near to them and said to them To me has been given all power in heaven and in earth (19) Go............. (20)And teach them to carry out all the things which I have commanded you forever” (This is the Original Hebrew Gospel of Mathew 28:16 – 20). Since Mathew 28:19 is not in the original manuscripts of the Bible, many scholars believe that this is proof that the three person doctrine of the Trinity was added to this text.

1. The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, Volume 1, page 275:

It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba (exact words) of Jesus, but…a later liturgical addition.”

2. Edmund Schlink, The Doctrine of Baptism, page 28:

“The baptismal command in its Mathew 28:19 form cannot be the historical origin of Christian baptism. At the very least, it must be assumed that the text has been transmitted in a form expanded by the {Catholic} Church”.

3. The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:

“The Baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century”.

4. Britannica Encyclopedia 11th Edition, Volume 3, pages 365 – 366.

“The baptism formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century”.

5. Canney Encyclopedia of Religion:

“The early church always baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus until development of the Trinity Doctrine in the second century”.

6. Hastings Encyclopedia of Religion, Volume 2, pages 377:

“Christian baptism was administered using the words, “In the name of Jesus”. Baptism was always in the name of the Lord Jesus until the time of Justin Martyr when the Triune formula was used.

God bless you! It it so good to hear from you!


Oscarlites profile image

Oscarlites 2 years ago from Alabama

I too, years ago, had the encyclopedia's out and had the exact data as you have now. it IS a refreshing thing to know God can show/ reveal/ inspire/ prompt anyone at random to not only uncover truth to the light in their studies, but also expose evil, wrong, false doctrine, unscriptural dogmas and beliefs that are indeed only man inspired. thank YOU JD for being so diligent!!!! THE SAME AS you have said about the name and its original use in baptism is also the fact of baptism always being by immersion. the encyclopedias,and historic records show this as well. you can't " pretend" you were baptized!

and IF you were writing on the subject of marriage and what it consitututes biblically, I also use these facts. if you THINK you can be married properly to the same sex, well, you are only able to "pretend" that you are married. married biblically means union of a male and female. but back to the subject at hand. - first and last words here are that the Word "trinity is NOT in the bible.. why can't someone stay with the word? man shall live by every word that comes from the mouth of GOD. I tell people when they leave the word of God , then we are not talking about the truth / doctrine any longer but some mans or academy's ideas.. so to me its simple. You're gonna start confusing me if you start using 'trinity' when it ain't even in the book. Oh my brother do you know the savior, who is wondrous kind and true? He's the rock of my salvation, oh there is honey in the rock for you!

- it is good to hear from you as well!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I am so thankful to have a brother that sees and understands God's Word, broken away from the mainstream indoctrination, as I (praise to the Holy Spirit). You know, speaking of baptism - there's a lot a people dunked in water in Jesus' name that yet do not have such revelation of who God is. Church of Christ is an example. I like how you compared marriage to baptism. Just as the married male and female become "one flesh" (we know this is spiritual), when we are baptized (immersed) into CHRIST (Who IS the Living Water), we are "one" in Spirit with Him as our Betrothed Husband. He is our Bridegroom and will come soon for His Bride, amen.

You may enjoy my teaching on marriage and divorce -- this was quite an in-depth study to address those who twist the Word to say there's absolutely no allowance for divorce and remarriage, as well as address those who are divorce and remarriage happy (perpetually doing so)! God's Word is clear on the matter, and I pray it blesses all who read.

"What GOD Has JOINED Together: Divorcing BAAL" http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/WHAT-GOD-H...

I've got to catch up and respond to all your comments, brother. I so appreciate your readership and encouraging, edifying, confirming comments. God bless you!!

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