What would it take to prove god exists?

Christians constantly tell us we must believe in god on faith. Those of us who do not believe in god are told that no amount of proof would be good enough for us even if god were to try to give us some. We would reject god even if he showed us his face and stood before us. We would still be able to say: That’s not god, it’s an alien.

Wow. We must be pretty dumb or god must be pretty weak. This doesn’t wash for the Christian version of god. It is omnipotent, so what’s the deal?

People tell stories about non-believers having free will so we choose not to see god and god won’t stand in our way. He doesn’t condescend to do miracles and besides, even if he did we wouldn’t recognize it as a miracle because we don’t want to.

Why would a god have to perform a miracle? Just showing up would be good enough. I can't buy the idea that a god would need any device to prove it exists. It sounds like an excuse for the fact that a god does not exist but people want to believe it does, not the other way around.

Were there a real god I am sure it would have no problem convincing anyone and everyone it exists if that is what it wanted to do. So there are very few possibilities.

1: A god exists but it is not all powerful and can't make us see it exists without question. Hence faith is required.

2: A god exists but it will not force us to believe in it so we have to come to it with our cap in hand and hope it is there. In fact unless we have unquestioning faith that it is there without any proof at all, it will wash its hands of us.

3: A god exists but does not want to show itself. We believe or we don’t. Kind of like number 2 but without the aspect of it not wanting to interfere with free will.

4: No god exists.

Number one is possible but no Christian likes that idea. Not many would anyway. There are so many varieties of Christians that you can probably get support for the idea from somewhere. Number 2 is interesting because it is the one most fundamentalists believe. You have a choice whether to believe in god or not. You will or you will not. Some even tell me god knows which you will decide before you do.

The problem with that idea is that unless you know something actually exists you really are not being given a choice. Are we given a choice as to whether a mountain exists or not? No. It exists or it does not. A thousand people can write about it but if it does not exist it would be absurd to believe it does.

The idea is farther made absurd by the insistence that if you are not a believer in god then you are on the devil’s side or the devil has fooled you. So non-belief is suddenly a rejection of god and an acceptance of the devil.

That idea is absolutely irrational. If I do not know a god exists then I cannot freely accept it or reject it. To make a choice you have to know there is a choice to be made. Forgive me for not taking the Christian’s word for it. It is Christianity I reject. At least I know it exists and what it stands for. I can make an informed decision about that.

But I cannot make an informed decision or choice when I don’t know that a god actually exists or what it actually stands for if it does. It’s like asking me to vote for an official without knowing the man or woman actually exists or what they stand for. If someone told me to vote for a candidate that never showed up, no one actually knew anything about except through a book a team of writers wrote though they had never seen the candidate either, what do you think my reaction would be? What would any sane person’s reaction be?

How can I accept or reject something that I do not know even exists? I can’t. It is as simple as that. I may be able to speculate and say: If it exists and stands for this or that I would choose it or I wouldn’t. But what is that worth? Nothing at all.

Yes, according to the bible we have to believe or we go to hell. Well, there is a lot of controversy among Christians as to whether or not that’s true. In fact you can’t get all Christians agreeing with any interpretation of the bible. There are as many views of what this god may be as there are people who believe it exists.

Each one of those views can be found in the bible. Pick your answer and there it is, verified for you. Of course most Christians will argue about that as well. They all have the right answer and there are millions of answers. Can they all be right? Of course not.

So even a god cannot be stupid enough to think that if we do not know it exists we are making a free will choice to reject it or accept it based on nothing.

To me it is like the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes. The cloth was so fine it appeared the Emperor was naked. But only the wise could see the clothes, so everyone said they saw it so they could appear wise to the wise. What a bunch of fools. What a bunch of swindlers the supposed clothiers were. What a bunch of swindlers those that tell us to believe without knowing the facts are.

Number 2 is an absurd choice of reasoning.

Number three is only slightly better. God simply does not want to show itself or give any evidence of itself but demands worship by faith or we will suffer the consequences. Nice guy. This is the tyrant egomaniac that demands faith and threatens torture and pain if we do not comply.

Or it just doesn’t care one way or the other.

There are those who say it doesn’t care about whether we believe in it or not as long as we live moral lives. That’s better. I can actually choose to live a moral life or not.

A god that demands worship on the threat of eternal torture is not in my estimation a god worthy of love or adoration any more than Adolf Hitler or any other tyrant dictator was. It astounds me that people, particularly in the USA who worship freedom so much choose to believe their god is a tyrant and thinks it’s just the greatest thing ever. It’s really astounding.

Then there is number 4. No god exists but people wish one did so they make one up or take on one that has already been manufactured for them no matter how flawed. Of course the flaws in their god are not seen as flaws. Like the popular corporate logic goes after a defect has been found: don’t tell them it’s a flaw, make it sound like a feature. It’s reprehensible.

The bottom line is that if a god were omnipotent then nothing would be impossible for it. It could very easily let us know about itself and prove to all of us it exists without compromising our freedom of choice. After all, just knowing for a fact that it does exist would actually give us freedom of choice, not hinder it. Does the fact that you know your father exists take away your freedom of choice as to whether you love him or not? Just the opposite. The fact that you know your father exists with certainty gives you the choice to love him or not. Not knowing your father or mother actually exist and who they are takes that away from you. The idea that god does not want robots so he does not force us to love him by the mere fact that we know he exists without question is ludicrous. It isn’t an argument. It’s a joke.

If a god can’t make us see it exists then it is not omnipotent. What more is to be said about it? That scenario and number 4, that it does not exist, are the only two scenarios that make any sense whatsoever $6. If god is actually nature, for instance, then it doesn’t care one way or the other. It doesn’t think. It is not omnipotent and it doesn’t matter. If it does not exist it would not be advantages to think it does, any more than it would be to believe in the invisible pink squirrels I am convinced live in my attic.

So the fact that we do not all know the Christian version of god exists indicates plainly that it does not. It really is as simple as that.

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15 comments

aravindb1982 profile image

aravindb1982 5 years ago from Puttaparthi, India

You have left one possibility which in my opinion is the Truth. And that is as follows.

Every being is in reality, God. The whole process of life is a game of devolution of God to mineral and evolution of mineral to God via man.

Everyone - you and me included is God. But we do not realize for we are in different stages of evolution. Take the case of the atomic theory. The Bohr's theory of atom is taught in the 6th grade and it works in finding solutions! But once you reach University, you are taught the Quantum theory and Bohr's model is absolutely wrong. Then still, why is Bohr's theory taught? That's because it is necessary for evolution.

Our concept of God is like that of a professor who is taking us through our grades till we realize that within us too is that professor - just that he/she has not blossomed yet.

So God is a being that has knowledge of its divinity and all of us, who lack this knowledge ( or have it in varying degrees) are pilgrims on the path to God or Truth.

In Christianity, you can see the evolution in Jesus' life too. He began by saying the he was "the messenger of God". Later on He became the "son of God." Finally, He said, "I and my father are one!"


Slarty O'Brian profile image

Slarty O'Brian 5 years ago from Canada Author

Thank you for commenting. ;)

Well when the Hindu and Christian speak of a god they are not talking about the same thing. My comments were directed at the Christian version more than anything.

I agree that all is interconnected and we are part of the all. If you want to call the all god then we are part of god but I don't agree except metaphorically that we are god.

You say there is something which knows it is divine. How can you know that?

I am a Pantheist in one of my many incarnations so I see nature as fulfilling the role of god in that it created all things. This is based on the fact that nature exists and is plain for all to see, and it does actively create. Add to that the fact that energy is all there is and god becomes the process of existence itself, the nature of energy.

Whether it is in any way conscious or not is up for debate. I see no need for that nor evidence for it at this point. I don't see consciousness the be all and end all of existence.

As for Jesus a lot of words were put in his mouth if he existed at all, and his legend did evolve through Rome from prophet to literal god.

But when I read those words I see a lot of room for interpretation. Saying he was a messenger of god is self explanatory. He is saying he thinks he knows the mind of god and has come to tell us about it. Saying he is the son of god is not saying he thought he was the only son of god. If there was a Christian god we would all be its children. He said that somewhere in the bible too. And when he said that he and the father were the same, he could have meant of the same mind. Meaning of course that he thought he knew what god wanted and what it was.

So all three sayings are a variation on a theme. The same thing said in different ways. Rome separated these ideas. I don't think Jesus, if he actually lived, did that


Spirit Whisperer profile image

Spirit Whisperer 5 years ago from Isle of Man

The Christian belief seemed to be created in order to wield power over people. The Catholic Church is big business and the Pope is more like the CEO of a multi-national conglomerate than a spiritual leader. The message has become twisted and the God the church asks us to pray to is the God it says will punish us for our wickedness. The early Christians were probably very spiritual people and many in the church I am sure are too but for the most part the church is serves the ego and survives based on a philosophy of fear.

God cannot be a man or a woman but it serves the church to portray God as a scary male authority figure. The idea that we are all sinners and must repent is so weird and to hear intelligent people talk like this today shows how little progress some people have made.

For me God is that, which exists beyond what we can perceive by our five senses and even the mind. God created our mind and in this sense we are extensions of God. God does not judge or punish but simply waits for us to return the way the sea waits for the wave to return. There is nothing to forgive and in my books we spend our lives asleep and oblivious to God. He whispers to us to wake up because it would be too traumatic to wake up suddenly. He sent us his voice to direct us to perceive correctly but whether we choose to hear of not is irrelevant because he waits patiently for the noise in our heads to subside and the day to when we listen to our hearts and are directed back to him.


Slarty O'Brian profile image

Slarty O'Brian 5 years ago from Canada Author

"For me God is that, which exists beyond what we can perceive by our five senses and even the mind."

I agree with everything else you said. My problem is that if it exists beyond what we can know then we can't know it exists at all. So we can not even say what you have said with any certainty at all.

As far as I know there is nothing beyond energy. That's all there is. Energy is what we are and the nature if energy is how we come to be.

I also do not see why it would be too traumatic for us to wake up suddenly or why a conscious god would create us asleep. It makes no sense to me. ;)


Mr. Happy profile image

Mr. Happy 5 years ago from Toronto, Canada

"A thousand people can write about it but if it does not exist it would be absurd to believe it does." - What if they created it, like you and your friends did when you made-up that extra person in the house?

"a conscious god would create us asleep" - that doesn't sound attractive - I'd be a little upset to say the least when I got up. Even the gods wouldn't be happy lol

I am of no religion. I had to google pantheism but it does feel right in saying that energy is the basis of Life, or it is Life. I am sure things are more complex than that though.

We are in a fun world full of mysteries.

Thank you for an interesting write once again Mr. O'Brian.


Slarty O'Brian profile image

Slarty O'Brian 5 years ago from Canada Author

What we created were emotions transferred to the environment, not a real entity as far as I can tell. But Hegel had a theory that I also came to before i read him, that the totality seems to be working toward a kind of perfection. That perfection would then be a god state.

So all the talk about a conscious god creating us would be wrong. We and the universe would be creating it, and so all our thoughts about a god would be metaphor for that process.

My opinion has always been that this is an impossible task that certainly will not be contributed to extensively by humans and will likely never be fulfilled.

Yes. I find it hard t o accept that if we were created by a conscious god that it would create us to be in a dazed state where nothing we think is reality. It seems absurd to me.

Energy is life. I don't think it is much more complex than that. The complexity comes from the possible transformations of energy due to it's nature. Humans are complex, but the basic framework of existence isn't. We have to study physics rather than religion to understand that. ;)

Yes it is a fun world of mystery. Ya gotta love it, ;)


Trish_M profile image

Trish_M 5 years ago from The English Midlands

Hi :)

Yes, you have hit the nail on the head, I think.

If 'God' does exist, in some shape or form, then 'he' is not as portrayed in the Bible ~ in my opinion.


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 5 years ago from England

Hi, I was brought up in the Church of England faith, and when I was small I just took it for granted, now that I am an adult I see things totally differently, for a start, why did people come up with the idea of God in the first place? was it the caveman who looked up and saw the sun, and in his primitive brain believed that it was supernatural? I actually do believe in a higher being, whether that being made us, is part of us on a higher intellectual level, or is completely alien I have no idea, but I do think Atoms are the answer, if we can figure out if the little blighters have a conciousness which they seem to do, then I think we will know one way or the other! great hub! got me thinking! lol cheers nell


Slarty O'Brian profile image

Slarty O'Brian 5 years ago from Canada Author

Hi Trish. Thank you for reading it. I think we can safely say that you are correct. The god of the bible is simply not possible. So if there is one, at least it isn't likely to be a tyrant egomaniac. Thank goodness for that. lol..


Slarty O'Brian profile image

Slarty O'Brian 5 years ago from Canada Author

Hi Nell. I read some of your hubs and comments to other hubs and was/am impressed.

I think we got the idea of gods through our first religions which were animist and ancestor worship,

In other words, like now we have parents to rely on. When they die it tells us we will die too. So we assume there is life after death. Probably as spirits.

Since the world is an amazing and strange place it almost seems possible. Also there is the aspect of being creative. We create things but we do not create the stuff we create things from. So we assumed something or someone or a group of someones created the stuff we use to create things with.

We define god as that which created all of this. So if the nature of energy/mass is what created all this then it would qualify as being god, even if it creates without intent. In stead of intent it uses tendency or cause and effect.

But the main reason we want a conscious god is so we can petition it for help if we are in need, and to make sure we have a way to an afterlife of some sort. For many it is so they can see lost loved ones again.

I think it all started when the brain lost sight of it's prime directive which is to keep the system alive at all costs. Our brains did their job so well that they now think the prime directive is to keep themselves alive at all costs, and to beat death they invented gods and souls.

But gods perform an other service as well. They can be used to mandate behavior. After all, if another human tells you something then since they are no better than you they have no real authority over you.

But a god that created you and that you depend on for fav ors is something to be reckoned with. It supposedly has full authority over you.

The Greeks knew about that even in 600 bce. There is a play that tells us that some wise man invented the gods so we could control our animal behaviors and rise above ourselves. They call it a justifiable lie for the good of all.

And yes, one can't help but be in awe of the sun and stars and wonder.

So I think all those ideas contributed to our desire for and belief in at least one god if not many.

Rome was so in love with gods that it was against the law not to worship some sort of god. It was felt that not worshiping any god at all would bring the wrath of all the gods on Rome itself. That's why they accepted any and all new gods they could find.

They even accepted the Jewish god, but found it odd because they claimed it was the only god.

In fact, I think the Canaanite god Yew was case from heaven by Baal for telling his followers he was the only god. And we know the Canaanites were Semitic and many were Hebrew. ;)


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 5 years ago from England

Hi, it seems to be a bit like 'Chinese whispers' over the years, I think the point is no one will ever really know, and that's why I can't understand why people fight over religion! how can you argue over something that cannot be seen? I do believe in something but I haven't really got a 'set' religion, its a bit of a mixture of Christianity, Paganism with a sprinkling of hindu mixed in! lol


Slarty O'Brian profile image

Slarty O'Brian 5 years ago from Canada Author

Have you ever looked into Pantheism? Might be something of interest for you. ;)


d.william profile image

d.william 5 years ago from Somewhere in the south

Good article and many interesting comments. Your original question was: what would it take to prove God exists? There is no proof today and never has been. If people choose to believe this foolishness, let them.

The only proof would be for something (god if you will) that could speak to the entire earth at the same time and appear to everyone at the same time, with the same message: "Shape up or ship out".

People in general are so filled with fear of the unknown that they will never be convinced (strictly out fear) that God does not exist. If people just accepted the concept of "live and let live", we could save ourselves a whole lot of grief in this brief interlude we call our life, and perhaps, just perhaps, even enjoy it while we can.


Slarty O'Brian profile image

Slarty O'Brian 5 years ago from Canada Author

Good points. ;) I agree.


somethgblue profile image

somethgblue 5 years ago from Shelbyville, Tennessee

Whether or not you have faith, why is proof necessary? My believe is that we require proof by our own self imposed limitations. Only by shedding our narrow minded thinking and learning to feel the truth in our hearts will we make any progress in our evolution.

We have been conditioned to think in such a narrow way that we limit our ability to accept our true nature, which of course is that we are all God.

However good food for thought, thanks for sharing!

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