ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED: WRONG

Source
John Wesley
John Wesley
The Amish People
The Amish People


Various faith groups within the Christian church have taught conflicting views whether a saved person can subsequently lose his salvation.

Some do agree with John Calvin, that "once saved, a person is always saved." As soon as one is saved, he is secure in the knowledge that he will attain heaven after death, no matter what he does during the rest of his life. Can this be true? Just believe in Jesus Christ and you are saved forever.

Others believe with John Wesley, that one can be saved one day and lose one's salvation later in life, either through an improper thought or deed. Thus, a person's salvation status is not determined until he actually dies.

Still others believe, with the Amish, that salvation is attained through living properly according to strict rules, and that one's salvation status is not determined until one dies.

John Calvin - 10 July, 1509 - 27 May, 1564

John Wesley - June 28, 1703 - March 2, 1791

Jacob Ammann led "The Amish" founded in Europe in 1693


WHICH VIEW IS CORRECT?


Which of the three views is correct? John Calvin, John Wesley or the Amish
We can see from the parable of the sower quoted by Jesus.


PARABLE OF THE SOWER
Matt 13:3-23, Mark 4:1-20
Matt 13:20-21 man falls away


Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end shall be saved.

Look again at the second half of that sentence. Jesus is saying that to be saved you must stand firm until you die. Conversely he is therefore saying that those who do not stand firm will not be saved!

I sincerely believe the ‘once saved always saved’ concept to be wrong. The implication that once someone becomes a ‘real’ Christian, he is saved and that he can’t backslide or commit a sin which would rob him of that inheritance. He is saved because he believes in Jesus and Jesus will not let him down or fall into sin.


6 STEPS TO FAITH


TO BE SAVED, ONE HAS TO UNDERGO 6 STEPS

To have faith, one must be willing to listen first, reconsider the facts, repent of one's sins, confess Jesus is Lord, that He died, is resurrected the third day and baptize for the forgiveness of one's sins and continue to lead a blameless life until the Lord returns. Faith is not just one action of believing. It takes some steps.

1. Be willing to hear the message.
2. Believe in faith
3. Repent of your sins.
4. Confess that you believe Jesus rose from the dead.
5. Baptize in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of all sins.
6. Continue in the faith.


Judas Iscariot
Judas Iscariot

JUDAS ISCARIOT WAS ONCE SAVED


Judas Iscariot was one of the chosen apostles by Jesus and he followed Him for about three and a half years. He had the position as treasurer of the group and was respected by his peers. The position he held was respected.

One of the most important criteria for the apostles was that the individual must have been sent by Jesus to proclaim the Gospel. The apostles proclaim the Kingdom of God after receiving the Spirit which empowers and enlightens them. They are also able to transmit power in the performance of miracles and also through the baptism. To transmit power to those who accept is proof of the genuine power of the apostle. It means that the apostle himself has legitimate power to receive the Holy Spirit and transmit it to other human beings.


The Tremendous Power of the Apostles

The supernatural power over unclean spirits and the healing of all kinds of diseases cannot be equalled. Judas Iscariot was one of these apostles who were envied by others. If Judas at this time was not saved, how can he have this supernatural power? In the end of three years, Satan entered into him through the lure of 30 pieces of silver, he was completely enticed by the sight of the love of money and sold Jesus for the sake of the money. Greed overtook him and overwhelmed him completely.

Matthew 10:1; Mark 3:15

And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Mark 16:15-18

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Not only do they have the power but also of the knowledge of God. They are meant to transform this knowledge and power and then pass it on to other human beings who are not in a position to absorb the Word of God directly.

Did Jesus know that Judas would eventually betray Him? Of course, Jesus knew but He allowed Judas to follow his heart as God allows us free reign over our decisions. Jesus came to save people, not to judge. Judgment would be when Jesus returned to earth the second time to judge the whole world, all those who had died and also the living.

Judas was "one of his disciples" (John 12:4 and Luke 6:13,16).

Judas was once saved, but became unsaved because he did not abide in Jesus Christ until the end.

John 13:8

Jesus washed all His disciples' feet, including Judas Iscariot. Jesus remarked to Peter, "If I wash thee not, thou has no part with me." That means that Judas had been a part of Jesus Christ until he sinned and sold Jesus.


Betrayal of Peter
Betrayal of Peter

QUESTION: WHY ARE SAVED CHRISTIANS TESTED?


If once is saved always saved, why are Christians tested to show whether they still believe in God? Why waste the time to test so many Christians if they are already forever saved. You then do not have to prove yourself worthy. You are already worthy even though you may have sins on you.

If Jesus will not let him down or fall into sin, that means He has taken man's freedom to choose how his life will be. If that happens, human beings are just pawns or robotic machines not having any will to choose whatsoever.

Christians can sin and they often do sin but to believe that a Christian can live any way he or she likes, and still be saved, is dangerous and wrong. Some argue that a ‘real’ Christian would not commit these sins and it is the so called Christians (in name only) who sin and fall from grace. Committed Christians sin for all sorts of reasons and we are only saved by God’s amazing grace. God knows our true hearts! Why then are Christians tested in the furnace of affliction? Why are they tried like for silver or gold?

Take Apostle Peter for example. He was a firm believer in Jesus, but when threatened, he denied Jesus three times before the cock crowed. Peter denied Jesus three times.


Matthew 26:69-75; Mark 14:66-72; John 18:15-18; 25-27.

Peter sinned because he was weak and not because he wanted to sin deliberately. There is a difference to this.

If a Christian sins deliberately and breaks laws for his or her own advantage knowingly, it is quite different from accidentally sinning.

God knows our true intention. We might be able to fool the public that we sinned accidentally, but God knows the real truth. If we deliberately go against the commandments given by Jesus or the laws of the country, then we must suffer the consequences which mean the loss of eternal life.


Matthew 26:60-75.

Peter wept bitterly for denying Jesus Christ thrice. It probably meant that he must have wept, pleaded bitterly and repented to Jesus asking for forgiveness. Jesus already knew beforehand that Peter was going to deny Him thrice. We must be sinless before we can go to heaven.


If we confess our sin we repair our relationship with God and everything is okay. However,if we refuse to repent and confess and continue to sin our relationship will deteriorate. In time we grow cold and our relationship is completely ruined.

A Christian who sins is not different from an unbeliever. The sin marks him as a sinner and sinners are barred from heaven. To believe that once you were saved, will be forever saved is a piped dream and wishful thinking.

Peter's sinning is different from that of Judas Iscariot. Judas deliberately sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. He planned to betray Jesus and even told the Jewish officials how to identify Jesus. Peter, on the other hand denied Jesus Christ due to his own weakness and fear that he would be punished just as Jesus was. Peter repented and was forgiven.



WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS - TRUE


We have to demonstrate our faith by works as Abraham did by obeying God when God asked him to kill his only son Isaac. Abraham believed that God would solve the problem when Isaac asked Abraham where was the lamb to be sacrified. Abraham replied that God would provide. He did not argue with God for giving him a son in his old age and now wanting his life. He obeyed without protesting. His faith in God was constant and did not fluctuate with trials and temptations. God chose us for our belief or faith in Him, but we must be consistent with our faith and not fluctuate as the waves . Our faith must be consistent as members in Jesus Christ.


2 Tim 1:9; Titus 3:5

True! God chose us for believing in Him first. To maintain our belief, we must continue to rely on Him. Remember Abraham was tested and it was his reaction to sacrifice his son Isaac that made God bless Abraham. If Abraham believed, but did not obey the voice of God, to prove himself obedient to His will, God would not have blessed Abraham.

In my last hub, I wrote about Grace who was pregnant in her sixth month and had chicken pox and it threatened the baby she was carrying. She continued praying and after the baby was born, she did baptize into the Lord. Was it work that saved her? No, it was her faith in Christ at the beginning, but she did prove she believed when she received baptism.


PREGNANT WOMAN SEEKS GOD
http://hubpages.com/hub/pregnantwomanseeksgod


James 2:21-22


Was not Abraham our forefather justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


James wrote that faith must be accompanied by works thus nullifying that one is saved by faith only, and not by works. James seemed to differ with Paul on this point. They were both writing to different audience but both stressed ultimately that belief in Christ was of utmost importance. If one argues that Paul was an impostor, then should not James be labelled an impostor as well? They both truly believed in Jesus Christ as their saviour.


WHY IS THIS DOCTRINE WRONG?


The scriptures teach to endure to the end. This is an important concept. Unless you run the race until the end, you cannot win the race.

1. Matthew 24:13; Mark 13:13

  • But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

2. John 15:4-6.

  • Abide in me, and I in you, As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in me. (6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

3. Hebrews 6:4-6

  • For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

4. 2 Peter 2:20-22

  • For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

5. Hebrews 10:26

  • For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


6. Hebrews 12:15-17

  • Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; (17) For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

7. Romans 11:22

  • Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

8. 1 Corinthians 9:27

  • But I keep under my body, and bring it unto subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

9. 1 Corinthians 10:12

  • Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

10. 1 Timothy 4:1

  • Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

11. 1 Timothy 5:12

  • Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

12. 2 Timothy 4:3,4

  • For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; (4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

13. Hebrews 3:12-14

  • Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

14. 1 John 2:24

  • Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

15. Philippians 2:12

  • Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

16. Romans 6:1,2

  • What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
  • God forbid.

17. Revelation 2:5,10

  • Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (10) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give the a crown of life.


Once Saved Always Saved: Wrong

Do you believe that Once saved Always Saved is Wrong?

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Comments 76 comments

rommergrot 5 years ago

Once saved always saved, if not, you were not REALY saved in the first place.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Jesus said in Mark 13:13, "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end shall be saved."

Endure means until the end. Endurance is a period of time, and not just one shot. A Christian must live a clean life during his period on earth,for a person with sin cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Why did Jesus teach the Lord's prayer on praying for the daily bread and forgiving our trespasses day by day? Why?

Why must a child who plays in the mud be washed and wear clean clothes again? The child was clean until he started to play in the mud. His mother had to wash him to make him clean.

Would the blood of Jesus keep him clean if he keeps wallowing in the mud after being saved? He has to ask for forgiveness from God and God would forgive him. If he does not ask, he is not forgiven. That is the grace of God. All sins are forgiven except the sin agaist the Holy Spirit.

Your answer is short sighted.


lifegate profile image

lifegate 5 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

I guess I would have to go with what the Bible says rather than Wesley or Calvin. I Peter 1:5 tells us that we are KEPT by the power of God. If I were to keep my own salvation, I would surely lose it, but it's by God's grace that He keeps it for me. God gave me eternal life. It is either eternal or God is a liar. I choose to believe Him rather than man's teaching.


lifegate profile image

lifegate 5 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

I accepted Christ as my Savior at the age of four. Yes, four!. I had sufficient understanding to know that my sin separated me from God and that I deserved eternal damnation in Hell unless I repented and came to Christ. In my later teen years I drifted away from Christ and took on influences of the world. I was most miserable, not because I lost my salvation, but because my fellowship with Christ had been broken. I was always aware that I was His child. I just wasn't living like one. Years later after our fellowship was restored I had four children. They didn't always obey, but I was still their father. I didn't always obey God, but I was born again into God's family and He is my Father. I thank Him for never leaving me or forsaking me (Hebrews 13:5).


Unchained Grace profile image

Unchained Grace 5 years ago from Baltimore, MD

As one who has been directly involved with real deliverance and street ministry, let's cut through the scriptural readings and get down to some reality. Einron, I know you are a very learned and extremely sharp student of God's Word. For this, I commend you highly as we all must study to show ourselves approved. Moreover, God's Word is our sword. It might be nice to stay in touch with what He has for us.

The reality of the situation is that all the emotional feelings that permeate throughout an altarcall (wherever that may be) get passed off as Salvation. Then, we put ourselves on the impossible task of being "Mr/Mrs Perfect" on our own. Ain't happening, people.

We disappoint ourselves and then think we disappointed God. Salvation is what it is. Step by step from The Pit to the Palace. We fall. We get back up and try, with the strength and wisdom from God, to move forward. Love and hope. Without those two we ain't got a chance.

Look at the building blocks of deliverance. Praise, prayer, faith and obedience to God's Will. Quit putting yourself and your issues on God's altar and then taking them back five days later cuz it ain't happenin' the way you thought.

Want a real answer? Take it to Jesus. Pull YOURSELF out of the pit. With God holding the rope at the top. People will turn anything into a freakin' conspiacy or controversy just to rationalize their own sorry excuses. Get real with God like Jesus got real with you when he died for your sins. Make it mean something.


Tamarajo profile image

Tamarajo 5 years ago from Southern Minnesota

well said.

There was a time in my life that God used the verses you displayed to discipline me from the foolishness of believing I could do what I wanted and still maintain relationship with Him. The experience was terrifying. I indeed came out of it knowing that to be a dangerous game to play and can jeopardize our eternities.

He made it abundantly clear that He loved me but would not tolerate certain things any longer. Oh how grateful I am for His loving discipline. "The fear of the Lord causes us to depart from evil", "We cannot eat from the table of the Lord and the table of demons"

Todays church is awash with easy believism, Just say the prayer and your ticket is punched. Don't repent just stay the way you are and hang out cause Jesus loves you anyway.

I do believe that Jesus loves the sinner but He wants to love Him from His sin not love Him and leave him in it.

The message of repentance was preached before the kingdom was offered.

excellent message.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

lifegate

YOU WROTE:

I Peter 1:5 tells us that we are KEPT by the power of God. If I were to keep my own salvation, I would surely lose it, but it's by God's grace that He keeps it for me.

ANSWER

God's grace keeps it when you obey Him completely. To retain it, you have to keep the commandments. If you sin, you have to repent.

God can forgive one who asks for forgiveness 490 times (countless) Mat. 18:22

John 14:15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

After being saved, when one sins, is it loving God? Certainly not.

YOU WROTE:

God gave me eternal life. It is either eternal or God is a liar. I choose to believe Him rather than man's teaching.

ANSWER:

You have to be dead before God gives you eternal life. We are not arguing that eternal life is not eternal.

One should always choose God rather than man's teaching. It is only when one's teaching is wrong, one has to pray and ask God for guidance. Peace!


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

lifegate

Thank God that you realized your mistake, repented and God took you back.

Mat 12:50; Mk 3:35; Luke 8:21;

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother and sister, and mother.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Unchained Grace

YOU WROTE:

Salvation is what it is. Step by step from The Pit to the Palace. We fall. We get back up and try, with the strength and wisdom from God, to move forward. Love and hope. Without those two we ain't got a chance.

ANSWER:

True for you are not saying that the blood of Jesus covers all sins. You did stress back up and try, but did not emphasize repentance, which is a strong word in the Christian vocabulary.

Sins must be repented and ask for forgiveness from God even if you fail 490 times, but who is counting? God will forgive when you ask, but sins must be eradicted.

Unless you are white as snow, you will not be admitted to the kingdom of God.

How can a saved person who fall into sin can be admitted to heaven?

Rev. 3:4

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Rev. 3:5; 4:4; 7:9,13; 15:6; 19:8,14

shall be clothed in white raiment.

Peace!


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Tamarajo

I am glad that you agree with the scriptures I have pointed out. My views are unimportant unless they are supported by verses in the Bible. I am not trying to win points but to demonstrate that scriptures verses are correct.

The opposition's view is simplistic and it is from their own explanation of the scriptures.

How often do we see on tv when the preacher asks the audience to say the sinner's prayer and after that, declare the person is saved. No wonder many people flock to this type of preaching. It is the blind leading the blind.

If the person is sincere, God would open the person's heart and teach him the real truth.

Peace and blessings!


Unchained Grace profile image

Unchained Grace 5 years ago from Baltimore, MD

Einron, I know all the scripture. Been there and done that. Ever do REAL deliverance? Real Street Ministry? Those people don't know from scripture. They need to see how God can understand them and how they can reach out.

Consider a church like a hospital. A patient can be admitted and later relapse. That doesn't mean they should be disregarded. Too many get hung up on things which don't work on the street. This does not negate God's Word. It fulfills it. We are to bring the lost into God's Kingdom. That means go right into the devil's front door and pull them out. Ever do that? We do it every day.

I can easily go toe to toe with any Ph.D. in theology or a graduate from anyone's divinity school. At the end of the day, what's all that got to do with bringing the homeless, gangbangers, prostitutes and drugdealers to Jesus? I don't recall seeing that in Bible College. What I saw was professors lecturing on scripture with zero anointing and zero experience in the one thing God really wants from us which is to bring the lost home.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Unchained Grace

The church needs all types of people to preach to them. The work is to reach all sorts of people from the educated to the uneducated, and from the rich to the poor. Society has many levels and Christianity needs to

reach them all.

Peace.


DaKingsKid profile image

DaKingsKid 5 years ago

Love the discussion. Blessings to all. I think the bigger picture in this argument sop to speak is the difference between carnal Christians and spiritual Christians. For one to truly be born again and be born of the spirit I believe they are saved. I also remember how Jesus stated that He had lost none that where given to Him except the son of perdition. At the same time if we look at the 10 virgins, 5 foolish, five wise, they all began with oil. You know the parable.

Einron "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."John 17:3

You can enter into eternal life the moment you receive Christ.

You also said in your answer "God can forgive one who asks for forgiveness 490 times (countless) Mat. 18:22"

Scripture says it like this "Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. " Matt 18:21-22

You must look at the scripture within the context that it is being used. Jesus was answering a question Peter had asked.

God does forgive.I do agree that when we come to God that we are to repent, change our mind about sin and take on the new nature that is provide by the changing power of God. I believe that we are no longer under the Law, but are held to a standard which God establishes in each one of our lives.


HOOWANTSTONO profile image

HOOWANTSTONO 5 years ago

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED : Correct

This is one of the many positions that believers would dispute and rightly so. Yet obeying law deceives even believers.

Gods Grace cannot change

Heaven will be full of sinners yet as red as blood on earth.

Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Peace


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

DaKingKid

YOU WROTE:

You can enter into eternal life the moment you receive Christ.

ANSWER:

Why does Jesus say you have to endure to the end (Mt. 10:22; Mk. 13:13)?

When Jesus addressed the person, He was talking to a saved person who accepted Him that he must be clean from the moment he becomes a Christian until he dies. It is impossible! He may sin in his thoughts. He must also repent and ask for forgiveness. Then he starts afresh.

Have you never faltered since becoming a Christian? Have you never repented? Why do we say the Lord's Prayer ever day and ask for forgiveness?

Why then have you to be baptized to be cleansed of your sins?

Why have you to repent and ask forgiveness from God and He has to forgive you of all the sins?

Why is baptism essential?

Mt. 18:21-22

Jesus said that forgiveness should be seventy times seven. Apparently, it means that a Christian can sin 490 times and be forgiven. So a Christian can sin and ask for forgiveness. If he does not ask for forgiveness, he is not forgiven by God and his sin remains a blot on his character. If he sins ten times, he has 10 black spots on him. God will not automatically remove the sin unless the sinner asks for it to be removed.

The Christian must repent and keep his character (clothes)clean when he dies and is judged.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

HOOWANTSTONO

YOU WROTE:

God's grace cannot change

Heaven will be full of sinners yet as red as blood on earth.

ANSWER:

How can heaven be full of sinners yet as red as blood on earth when only those who have not soiled their garments are worthy to be with Christ in heaven?

Rev. 3:4-5

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment: and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels (Rev. 3:4-5).

God's grace is extended to all, but if we do not accept, we will not have the grace.

Rom. 6:7

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the LAW, but under grace? GOD FORBID.

If we sin, we must repent and God would forgive. Jesus

already said in Mt.18:21-22 that one should forgive "seventy times seven" which is 490 times? But who counts?

Peace!


HOOWANTSTONO profile image

HOOWANTSTONO 5 years ago

einron

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED : Correct

Many confuse cease from sinning and cannot sin. Jesus paid the price, and sin cannot reverse what he has done, and God will not change what he achieved in his Son.

Nothing can separate us from Christ not even sin can

As believers in Christ though you sin God has covered the sin with blood eternally.

If you try and make yourself perfect then you put yourself on the throne. God calls us perfect as sinners, hence the blood of Jesus forever.

Forgiveness is eternal and can never be taken away, because then it was not forgiveness.

If one sins without ceasing then God will allow Satan to destroy him so he can be saved.

1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Mt.18:21-22 that one should forgive "seventy times seven" which is 490 times This Jesus forgiving eternally.

Peace


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

HOOWANTSTONO

YOU WROTE:

As believers in Christ though you sin God has covered the sin with blood eternally.

ANSWER: Wrong

A person in his lifetime sins many times. When he accepts Jesus, all his previous sins are forgiven for Christ's blood has covered them. FORGIVENESS IS BEFORE

HE BECAME A CHRISTIAN.

John 5:4

Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold thou art MADE WHOLE: SIN NO MORE, LEST A WORSE THING COME UNTO THEE.

Where does it say here that the forgiveness covers another sin? Jesus is warning him not to commit another sin.

John 8:11

And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go and SIN NO MORE.

Jesus forgave her, but she had to sin no more, otherwise she would fall under the same category as that above.

Heb.6:6

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

How can any wrong be covered again unless he repents again?

We agree to disagree. ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED: WRONG

Peace!


HOOWANTSTONO profile image

HOOWANTSTONO 5 years ago

I forgot to mention. Gods Assurance lasts forever, otherwise we could not trust God.

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Gods-Assur...


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

HOOWANTSTONO

PEACE!


kmaskreations profile image

kmaskreations 5 years ago

Good Hub and right on target. The deadly doctrine of eternal security is false and preached by most "ordained" ministers in the U.S. to a Bible illiterate nation. It is becoming increasingly difficult to find a structured church still teaching the true doctrine of Christ. People don't want to hear it and preachers don't want to preach it. The congregations want to continue in their sins and still believe they're Heaven-bound. Preachers want to keep their jobs. If it were not necessary to strive to be that unspotted & unblemished bride Christ is coming for, what is the need for the entire New Testament writings after the birth and death of our Savior? I'm driven by my love for Him to preach holiness unto final salvation. Initial salvation is the beginning. There is a man who has written the best book on the subject, Dan Corner. "The Believer's Conditional Security" breaks it down so thoroughly that after reading it, you'd be ashamed to admit you ever believed otherwise. It is unfortunate the truth is not readily understood by scripture alone, but Dan is desperately driven to help people understand the true definition of grace. I wish I could end with "Peace!" but Christ did not come to bring peace (Matt:10:34). I can, however, end with Agape to all.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

kmaskreaction

YOU WROTE:

People don't want to hear it and preachers don't want to preach it. The congregations want to continue in their sins and still believe they're Heaven-bound. Preachers want to keep their jobs.

ANSWER:

Alas! How true! They keep sinning until they die and say they believe in Jesus and their sins are covered. They keep falling into the mud and do not have to wash their garments!

In the end time, many will wake from their stupor of blindness and euphoria. Pray for God's mercy.


DareToTry 5 years ago

Once Saved Always Saved = WRONG, FALSE DOCTRINE, ANOTHER GOSPEL!!!

Adam and Eve wouldn't need salvation if they were "Once Good Always Good". If God can make a saved person 100% secure, then why didn't He create Adam and Eve to be that way? Why gave them the freewill to sin, and then only to take away their freewill to sin and not repent once they accepted the Savior?

Einron, you have a very solid case. Those who argue with you often depart from the Scriptures and debate with human reasoning.

I also wrote an article on salvation, Can You Lose Your Salvation?

http://bible-verses-insights.com/2009/10/can-you-l...

Please visit my blog! My mandate is to restore the early Church.

Really want to meet with you and have a coffee and fellowship a bit. I also live in Toronto.

If you read my blog, you will see who I am. A harmless young man who has a Christian blog.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Dare to Try

Thanks for the comments! I have read your article and I noticed you mentioned "The Trinity".

Please read: GOD'S MANIFESTATIONS: THE HOLY SPIRIT AND JESUS CHRIST

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/godsmanife...


HisBody profile image

HisBody 5 years ago from heavenbound

Hi Einron,

I disagree with the main message of the title.

Yes, a person can by there free will renounce Jesus = no salvation.

I do know that if they we're to blaspheme the Holy Spirit they'll lose there salvation.

Also if the part of being turned over to a reprobate mind I believe has it's role in the renouncing Jesus and the unforgivable sin.

I believe that there are many instances that a person will only do as Romans 10;9-10 (to believe in there heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and to confess Him as Lord) I believe they are saved.

Also it takes God's Holy Spirit to even be present for them to even be able to say Jesus is my Lord.

Also let's take account of those in different countries and area where the Gospel doesn't have free course. If they accept Jesus no matter how little there knowledge is they are saved by there faith in Jesus. They never had a chance to learn anything else about God!

Also let's think of those who choose to trust & confess Jesus right before there death- They are saved also.

What about the places that there's no access to a place of baptizim? Whosoever calls on the name of Jesus shall be saved.

I get that your trying to tell people to walk out there salvation & to act and do as Jesus said. Great, that's good.

But what about the end time harvest? What about those who will only be saved by them calling on Jesus? They won't have time to walk this out- in the way that you have said. They will die with the faith alone that they have called on Jesus. In Rev. it speaks of all those who are going to die in the tribulation period. I believe a lot of them aren't going to have a clue about the goodness of God or anything else until they get to heaven because all they knew to do was call on His name.

So yes some of us that have knowledge of the call on our lives by God will and will not answer His call.

Some of of will die because of are wrong choices, because of walking into darkness, and also sinning.

But The bible says His people perish because of the lack of knowledge. There still His people even though they were not wise in Him! They accepted Jesus and didn't deny or renounce Him all the way to death.

Yes, we need to buckle down and seek God for His will in our lives- His will is in His word.

Please don't make it seem so hard to gain the salvation of our souls through Jesus. We can have victory now and when we will die. It's still a choice and some just aren't aware of the fullness and goodness of God.

Everyone that comes to Christ is in a different situation, different families, different laws, freedoms, everyone of us will pay a different price for accepting Jesus as our Lord. The price that we'll have to pay for trusting Him and not what this world can do to us.

I do street ministry and I know that these peoples souls are being pulled of the course to hell they have chosen to accept Jesus as there Lord and also received His spirit. This is for some the one and only chance for there soul to be saved.

Without the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus and it being made clear that salvation is easy we won't be able to reach a dying world.

Living in Christ and dying in Christ some will only experience the dying in Christ.

John 3:16- WHOSOEVER!

God bless you!


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

HisBody

I am glad you are preaching on the streets for the Lord.

However, I am not sure we are talking about the same subject. The subject is ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED: WRONG

You are going off the target by saying I am making it hard for people to believe in Jesus. I do not make the rules. God makes the rules and I am only quoting them.

The question is are you are always saved, no matter what sins you commit? My point is after you are saved, when you commit sins, you must ask for forgiveness. Every time you sin, you must ask for forgiveness.

Have a good day!


Pollyannalana profile image

Pollyannalana 5 years ago from US

I know exactly what you mean and I agree completely and also think many people think they are good enough to go to heaven so why wouldn't they? We even have pastors who are not saved and many who should be teaching scripture not preaching politics, some people may miss there only chance with preachers wasting every chance, every service trying to reach another. What about scripture that speaks of people who considered Jesus blood for them an unworthy thing and they would have been better to have never known him? What about the ones that God says will say did I not cast out demons or do this or that in your name and He will say, "Depart from me, I never knew you!" I don't quote scripture a lot just what I know from study and in my heart knowing Jesus but if needed I can certainly find it in a couple of minutes.


Pollyannalana profile image

Pollyannalana 5 years ago from US

And before I go to bed I want to thank God for you and I know my husband will read you also.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Pollyannalana

Thanks for agreeing with me. Peace and blessings!


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Pollyannalana

Ours is not a chance meeting. If your heart seeks the truth, God will make you meet someone who has the truth to share. Glad that your husband will read the article.

My object is to write the truth and present it. From then on, you either accept it or reject it. It is God who will judge us! Blessings to you.


Pollyannalana profile image

Pollyannalana 5 years ago from US

Well I will certainly never argue the bible with people, if I did not think you know the truth I would not follow you but I can see you see as I do and I am sure it may not be 100% but I would be very glad to ask you reasons on a certain belief I have not seen. I love bible study and many men I have studied I did not believe 100% with them but I got so very much and you know once you start studying how many questions it brings up direction you go, I have never been more happy in my life than in bible study and I never claim to be 100% right but it would certainly be my goal and I think the Holy Spirit leads us there. Blessing to you too.


abney416 5 years ago

einron, I come not to debate nor to disagree. I am not worthy to be saved, but, God sees Jesus and His sacrifice instead of seeing how unworthy I am. I believe a person can lose their salvation, but, to me, that would be the unpardonable sin. A person such as that would have been better off to have never believed in the shed blood of Jesus in the first place, than to believe, then turn away later, trampling the Blood of Jesus underfoot. I am not a good person, however, no man, no devil, nor my own lack of worth will ever separate me from the love of my Savior. To Him I cling and to Him I belong. In a way I am disagreeing with you, but, it may only be a case of semantics. I have only one hope in reaching Heaven and that one hope is through believing that Jesus died for all of my sins, not just some, and, not just up to some point. If my future sins are not covered, then, I am left to cover my sins through my own goodness. I can not cover my sins yesterday, today, or, tomorrow. That is the beauty of the sacrifice Jesus was willing to make. Regardless of any possible debate, I cling to my one and only Salvation and I refuse to ever let that go, or, entertain thoughts that my own goodness will ever get me to Heaven. Salvation is a free gift, it is not a gift we can earn, and, we can never be good enough to keep it. As I have already said, I am not a good person, but, even the good people can never attain a Heavenly hope by their deeds. I am one of the whosoever will, and, from this one thing, I shall never stray. I sincerely hope you do not think I am trying to be argumentative, I am not. Its just that this one premise is the most important thing I will ever know and I shall always cleave unto the promise of eternal life. For me, tomorrow will be no different than the previous days of my life, I will need this free gift to see me through all my days on earth.

"There is none good; no not one."

"Faith without works is dead." I, though I have never exactly read what I am about to say, think that (works)without faith is dead. We must have faith that the Blood of Jesus is sufficient to cover all of our sins.

Thank you for allowing me to read and to comment.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Pollyannalana

Thank you for further clarification! Very true, no man is without sin! Thank God for He is so forgiving!


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

abney416

YOU WROTE:

If my future sins are not covered, then, I am left to cover my sins through my own goodness. I can not cover my sins yesterday, today, or, tomorrow. That is the beauty of the sacrifice Jesus was willing to make.

ANSWER:

When you accepted Christ, and He has accepted you, all your past sins are forgiven.

From then onwards, you must strive to live a Christian life. If you sin, you MUST ASK GOD FOR FORGIVENESS AGAIN.

If you repent, God will forgive you again.

On forgiveness, Jesus said in Matthew 18:21-22 "Until seventy times seven "(490). It means there is no limit in forgiveness.

John 5:14

Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

The sinner was forgiven once, but he must not sin again. If he sins again, he must again ask for FORGIVENESS. The act of forgiveness does not cover all sins after he has been forgiven.

John 8:11

And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more.

A thief stole something and he is given a sentence. After that he is free, but when he steals again and is caught, he will be punished again.


abney416 5 years ago

As I said before, I did not come in here to debate. I just came back to wish you and yours a Merry Christmas.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

abney416

Thank you for your wishes, but I do not observe Christmas which is pagan in origin. God forbids us.

See: WHY DO CHRISTIANS CELEBRATE PAGAN CHRISTMAS?

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/whychristi...


abney416 5 years ago

Regardless of whether you think its a pagan holiday or not, I am talking about the birth of Christ. There is no use to get weird over someone wanting to remember the great event of the birth of Jesus. Should I have just told you (happy holidays) in a good old fashioned pagan way. :-) Happy Halloween. :-)


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

abney416

Thanks for visiting again. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. Have a good day!


Pollyannalana profile image

Pollyannalana 5 years ago from US

I am certainly surprised you would not believe in us celebrating the birth of our Savior. I know that many have taken it out of context, but the Christians I know remember the birth of Jesus who without his Virgin birth could not have died for our sins. I think Christ's birth and death are wonderful celebrations of remembrance. I know it has been commercialized but any true Christian does not have to join that group. I will never forget either of those dates of a Savior I dearly love.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Pollyannalana

1. Jesus Himself said to remember His death till He comes again (1 Co 11:24-25).

2. None of His apostles mentioned anything about His birth nor celebrated it.

3. Heb.7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God, abideth a priest continually.

Very important to note: without father (Jesus is God's manifestation on earth; without mother (Mary was just a surrogate mother). How can God who is spirit have a birthday? Human beings have birthdays, not God.

Please do not use your own deduction or reasoning. Instead use the bible as reference.

Jesus was fully God (God has no beginning and no ending)

and fully Man (As a man, He can die, but as God, He cannot die). This WHY God sent Him as a human being to die for our sins. God as a spirit cannot die.

To celebrate Jesus' birth on Christmas is going against God's wishes because the origin of Christmas is pagan.

Read: WHY DO CHRISTIANS CELEBRATE PAGAN CHRISTMAS?

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/whychristi...

To remember His death is alright for we remember His sacrifice. To remember His birth is taboo for He is God in the flesh on earth and God has no birthday at all!

I hope the explanation will help you decide one way or another. Prayer should help! God bless!


Pollyannalana profile image

Pollyannalana 5 years ago from US

Well I think the Holy Spirit inside me can be my guide which is the same as Jesus, having sent the Holy Spirit back for us. My God would have a problem with millions celebrating Him twice a year? Yes the three are one but the three are separate in that we are the Body of Christ and will reign and rule with Him at least 1000 years in the New Jerusalem. I think some Christians may lose many that may come to Christ thinking celebrating any and every day wouldn't be OK if we so chose. I have sang all day in the spirit of Christ and Christmas and we must have two different Gods because I know mine loves me and my love of the Son which this age of grace and the Church is all about. Maybe you are Morman, are you?


Pollyannalana profile image

Pollyannalana 5 years ago from US

What about the three wise men who went hearing of the newborn Savior bearing gifts, maybe that is how the idea got started. Where they pagan? Jesus was God become flesh, wasn't it real blood He shed for us? You think He was spirit so He had no pain? Do you recall His prayer in the garden to the Father, was He praying to Himself?


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Pollyannalana

You wrote:

Reigning a 1000 years!

Answer:

Please read THE FIRST RESURRECTION OF MAN

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/firstresur

I am not a Mormon. Read my profile and you will know what church I belong to. I come from a non denomenational church. Peace!


Pollyannalana profile image

Pollyannalana 5 years ago from US

There is a thousand year millennium we will spend in the New Jerusalem in the air with Jews having the earthly promise we will be with Jesus ruling over them and satan at this time will be bound but loosed at the end for a little season,for all must be tested (tempted)and choose good from bad. Then after that the judgment of satan and his, to be no more and we are not told anything past that but there will always be an earth being the Jews promise being God's chosen. There is a difference between Jew and Christian but we are to love them and if not for their denial of Christ we would have not gotten the crumbs from the table, been grafted in, we the gentiles but now Christs, thus Christian,which a Jew could also be if he believed in Christ but apparently most won't until after the Church has been removed from the earth,thus too late to be a part of the body of Christ.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Pollyannalana

The 1000 year millenium is an allegorical number for 1000 years is like a day in the sight of the Lord (2 Pe.3:8).

The number of the sealed Israelites in Rev.7:4 is also an allegorical number.

The Gentile Jews are mentioned in Rev.7:9-17, an unnumbered multitude. They are also saved and will live with Christ.


Pollyannalana profile image

Pollyannalana 5 years ago from US

So you are saying the Jews do not have an earthly promise and we will all be Christians, the Jew too who has not become Christian? If you read about the millennium you will see that a person really old as of today won't age during the millennium the same and the Jew will be on earth we will be in the New Jerusalem above earth. Yes now a Jew can become a Christian but not after he comes for the church, end of that, the age of grace. Yes there will be the 144,000 evangelize and maybe many will be saved so then they are no longer Jew but the bible separates Christian from Jew. Who are we reigning over if we are all in Heaven, there will always be an earth and it will be the Jews.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Pollyannalana

YOU WROTE:

So you are saying the Jews do not have an earthly promise and we will all be Christians, the Jew too who has not become Christian?

ANSWER:

I certainly did not say such things. The Jews certainly are the most intelligent people in the world. Most of the scientists and the rich bankers are Jews.

YOU WROTE:

If you read about the millennium you will see that a person really old as of today won't age during the millennium the same and the Jew will be on earth we will be in the New Jerusalem above earth.

ANSWER:

Time waits for no man. No man in this age will live a thousand years. The millenium is a figurative number as I wrote to you earlier.

YOU WROTE:

Who are we reigning over if we are all in Heaven, there will always be an earth and it will be the Jews.

ANSWER:

All who are qualified will go to heaven and will be reigning over Satan and his followers.

Peace!


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Pollyannalana

YOU WROTE:

So you are saying the Jews do not have an earthly promise and we will all be Christians, the Jew too who has not become Christian?

ANSWER:

I certainly did not say such things. The Jews certainly are the most intelligent people in the world. Most of the scientists and the rich bankers are Jews.

YOU WROTE:

If you read about the millennium you will see that a person really old as of today won't age during the millennium the same and the Jew will be on earth we will be in the New Jerusalem above earth.

ANSWER:

Time waits for no man. No man in this age will live a thousand years. The millenium is a figurative number as I wrote to you earlier.

YOU WROTE:

Who are we reigning over if we are all in Heaven, there will always be an earth and it will be the Jews.

ANSWER:

All who are qualified will go to heaven and will be reigning over Satan and his followers.

Peace!


Pollyannalana profile image

Pollyannalana 5 years ago from US

We will reign over satan and his followers? After the 1000 yr reign in the New Jerusalem where we with Jesus reign over the living satan will be loosed a little season so all may be tempted and choose Got or satan and what about the answer about the three wise men taking gifts to Jesus the baby. I think you missed a good bit or just made it go your way. I guess I was certainly wrong that we think alike. But I just hope you will take a better look and there is nothing in the bible ever of us reigning over satan. You do not read Revelation I think.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Pollyannalana

Thanks for visiting again. We agree to disagree. Nothing can be done to breach the gap. You even pass judgment on my reading Revelation!

Peace!


revmjm profile image

revmjm 5 years ago from Richmond, VA

There seems to be mixed views here about once saved always (and not always) saved. And people are giving scriptures to substantiate both views. I would like to think that God is NOT an Indian giver that He gives us salvation and then snatches it back when we sin. Romans 3:23 says, "All have SINNED (past tense) and FALL short (ongoing present tense) of the glory of God." We have sinned in the past and if we keep living we will continue to sin. However, our salvation is not based on what we do, but on what we believe about Jesus' redemptive work on the cross.

If a person has truly been saved and then sin, I don't believe he loses his salvation. I believe he breaks fellowship with God and is out of relationship. He has to be reconciled with God in order to get back into right relationship with Him.

There is a lot of bondage to think we have to keep getting saved. I have the freedom to know that I have been saved ONCE AND FOR ALL!


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

revmjm

If a person dies when his relationship with God is on hold, will he go to heaven?

He has not reparied his relationship with God.


revmjm profile image

revmjm 5 years ago from Richmond, VA

My immediate and short answer is "Yes." I base this on Romans 10:9-10 which says if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved." Even though a person is out of right relationship with God he is still saved because he has met the requirements of confession and believing.

Salvation is not based on what we do but on what Jesus did. However, the beauty comes in having a right relationship with God.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

revmjm

Quote:

"Even though a person is out of right relationship with God he is still saved because he has met the requirements of confession and believing."

What is your answer to the following?

1. John 5:14

Jesus said, "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

2. Hebrews 10:26

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

3. What if the person commits murder?

1 John 3:15

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Peace.


Andrew0208 profile image

Andrew0208 5 years ago from Zion

Great and insightful hub. In as much as God detests sin, He also detest man's classifications of righteousness which are zero in His sight. Jesus spoken words are life and Spirit [far beyond the concepts of man, religion, and science] - John 6:63.

These words are all anchored in love and not law least any man should boast of it. We should understand 100% of His ministry on earth and after - two different realities. The later part is the fulfilled redemption cause...How on earth could anyone be saved just by believing and confessing the Lordship of Jesus without doing the old testament laid out rules to be right with God; have anyone asked why?

I'm not interested to debate if the saying 'once saved, always saved' is right or wrong as it's 100% carnal to wallow on that. I thank God for the indwelling Holy Spirit in the life of a believer in Christ Jesus - Best guide into all truths. A lot more to the recreated human spirit by the Word. Thank you and God bless.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Andrew0208

How on earth could anyone be saved just by believing and confessing the Lordship of Jesus without doing the old testament laid out rules to be right with God; have anyone asked why?

Answer:

People are naive enough to think so. They want the easy way into heaven. The Bible did say, they would be tried and tested to show their faith in Jesus.

Peace and blessings to you.


Andrew0208 profile image

Andrew0208 5 years ago from Zion

I meant the translation of law to love. It is as simple as that by believing in the death, resurrection, and confessing Jesus as Lord and Saviour one is saved both the circumcized and non circumcized. Did He brake the law of Moses? NO! He fulfilled it with Love.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Andrew0208

True, Circumcision or no circumcision has nothing to do with salvation. Peace!


Harlan Colt profile image

Harlan Colt 5 years ago from the Rocky Mountains

Good hub over-all, however I have a problem with the way you used a couple verses. Hebrews 6:4-6. You use this verse to suggest one who is saved and returns to "wallowing in the mire," cannot be saved again. At least that is how I take it. Jesus said, I shall never leave you or forsake you. The Bible also says, those who repent, God shall graft them in again. That is the whole point behind the story of the wayward son. He went off and partied with women and wine and spent all his inheritance. When he came home busted, his father killed the fatted calf to celebrate because his son had been dead, but was now alive again and had returned home. You have to take all the Bible and measure the Word with the Word.

The way you present this is - if you got saved and then fell into sin, got drunk, slept with the neighbor or whatever, there is no hope for you, and that is NOT TRUE. As long as you are conscious of thought, you can repent and be saved.

When Jesus was preaching he asked the crowd, Those who say do not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? (My words here) Jesus was telling them - stop sinning and walk in faith of your salvation. We do good works not to get salvation but because of our active faith/relationship with Christ.

You list 6 steps to salvation.

What about step 5? Do you mean water baptism?

Also, the Bible says Remission of Sins, regarding step 5. Think of remission like when cancer goes into remission - its gone, it goes away. ie., likewise your sin goes away, but it can return if you stop walking in faith.

Acts 10:43

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

You did a lot of work on this. That is awesome. While it is wrong to teach people that once they are saved they are always saved, it is also wrong to teach them that if they were saved and fell back into sin, that they cannot return to Christ's salvation again too.

At least that is how I took your position, and if you did not mean that, then my apologies, but that is how I took it from your work.

- In Christ

- Harlan


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Harlan Colt

YOU WROTE:

As long as you are conscious of thought, you can repent and be saved.

ANSWER:

True! God would forgive you every time you confessed your sins until seventy times seven. But who counts? If you do not repent, you are still unforgiven.

If you fall into the mud and got dirty, and unless your clothes are washed, the mud would still be on your clothes.

The only unforgiven sin is sin against the HS.

YOU WROTE:

We do good works not to get salvation but because of our active faith/relationship with Christ.

ANSWER:

True! Doing good works cannot get you to heaven. After you believe in Jesus, you have to do good to show you are a follower of Christ, and in good relationship with God. You explain it better than I did!

YOU WROTE:

What about step 5? Do you mean water baptism?

ANSWER:

FAITH in Jesus saves us. However, if sins are retained, you will not go to heaven. Sins must be removed, and Jesus though sinless need not be baptized but did baptize to show us as an example.

Sorry, I did not make myself clear enough, but glad I have the opportunity to explain to you my position.

Peace!


lionswhelp profile image

lionswhelp 5 years ago

Being a Christian isn't all peaches and cream. We all like children slip and fall from grace. God extends repentance for us to use when we sin. Look at King David in Psalm 51. After committing adultery with another man's wife and then having that person murdered to cover up his sin. However, David finally realized how far away he drifted frm God. He repented and so have many others. Look at the Apostle Paul's reply to those that think once saved always saved is a sure thing in Romans 7:12-25. Sin is alway knocking at the door of our hearts. Though we are to become perfect we have to work at it, John 10:10.

Take another example mentioned in Revelation 3:14-21 > It is those that are overcoming the world and our fleshy pulls that will be saved. We need to stay awake and not get lulled into letting down our guard thinking we have have it made as Christians and can do whatever we want to now.The overcomers will be saved

This is also reflected in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15,16. We must be careful how we build on the foundation Christ set for us. It is obvious that once saved always saved will only work if we stay on the narrow road to salvation.

Some Christians are on different pages on how they obey God. Some keep things that offend God, so they will be given fiery trials to see just how much they really have listened to Jesus' teachings. If you don't let go of some kind of sin you can still be saved even though certain sins you are still doing will be burnt up. You can still be saved if you truly didn't realize what your actual sin was even though God knows real well what they are. Still God knows you have continual repentant heart even though you may not know what your hidden sin is.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

lionswhelp

Glad to see you again and thanks for the remarks. We must constantly be alert for the enemy is lurking looking for someone to devour.

Peace and blessings!


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 5 years ago from among the Ekklesia

There are some good points here. I have pondered and weighed and tested this very question. When we take the religious doctrine of "once saved, always saved" and promote this type of teaching, the sinner enters the church and there he remains one. The very word "grace" is abused as get out of jail free card. There is no repentance for sin, you are just sorry that you got caught. To be blunt this type of thinking only breeds apostate churches.

I had to go to the church about "inappropriate" conduct of a youth leader towards a younger girl. He had been confronted many times before on many other similar behaviors. The response of some of the leaders was that He has been redeemed and that we need to show "grace"("once saved, always saved").

You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

Mathew 5:13

"A man who remains stiff-necked after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy."

Proverbs 29:1

No wonder there is so much apostasy in the church, God's true grace is being denied for a counterfeit.


einron profile image

einron 5 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Planksandnails

YOU WROTE:

The very word "grace" is abused as get out of jail free card. There is no repentance for sin, you are just sorry that you got caught. To be blunt this type of thinking only breeds apostate churches.

ANSWER:

You have hit the nail on the head! You cannot fall again and again into the mud and not wash your clothes, or ask your mother to wash.

Would the person with the dirty clothes be allowed to sit at dinner in his dirty clothes?

Peace.


Rodgerb 4 years ago

so what have you done to keep your salvation?


einron profile image

einron 4 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Rodgerb

Jesus said, Love me, keep my commandments. Peace.


Elijah 3 years ago

This is quite interesting. I personally believe that ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is true. When Jesus told those sinners "not to sin again" He knows it cannot be done, because people will keep sinning until the day God takes them home; that's why JESUS CHRIST died afterwards and tells the father "it is finished" - He is the sacrifice for everyone's sin: past, present, and future. I think stating that OSAS is fallible belittles God's power of grace. If one thinks that when he sins, he is not saved anymore, so he should repent, what does that make of God's sacrifice? It destroys the purpose of the Lord Jesus Christ's death and resurrection. God is most aware of how this place is a battlefield, and one can easily fall into sin if not by God's grace and power - through His word. So what does that make of us, christians? I think the reminder not to sin is mainly not for us (although it helps us grow in Christ), but for those unbelievers who witness the work of Christ, and the hope that Christ gives ONLY THROUGH US. If these people see our lives living the word of God, they can be saved too! Peace, and spread the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.


einron profile image

einron 3 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Elijah

Please quote Future Sins are forgiven.

It is finished. Jesus came to die for our sins so we can get back the relationship with God before Adam and Eve sinned.

Rev. 3:5

He that overcometh the same shall be clothed in white raiment: and I will not out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

How can a person with dirty raiment because he sinned and sinned again be allowed into heaven? If he sins, repents and asks for forgiveness, the sin will be wiped off. Then he will be admitted into heaven.

John 5:14

Jesus said, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

What is a worse thing?

In baptism, the previous and present sins are washed in the blood of Jesus. It is not future sins are blocked out.

tho


einron profile image

einron 20 months ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Hebrews 3:12-14

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 20 months ago from West Virginia

einron, that was from Paul and Jesus never said anything like that.


einron profile image

einron 20 months ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Of course!


lionswhelp profile image

lionswhelp 20 months ago

einron

This discourse in Hebrews 3:12-14, actually starts back in Hebrews 3:6-7. Here the Holy Spirit is speaking to us about listerning to Jesus Christ who was the God of Israel in the OT. Many theologians doubt that Paul is the author of the book of Hebrews . It doesn't seem to be his writing style but that it may have been either Perscilla or Phoebe both were leaders. Just food for thought.

Also the Holy Spirit speaks to us again in Hebrews 10:15-16, as the One who is writing God's Laws in our minds and hearts. Notice Romans 8:2 - the law of the Spirit of life in Christ makes us free from the law of sin and death. Grace sets us free from our past sins and now we live by the faith and righteousness of Christ, Romans 3:22-31.:. However, our fleshy bodies still fights against the Spirit who is in us and Satan wants to pull us back to our old ways of sin. We need to be careful in our walk with God to be watchful and have the tool of repentance ready when we do slip and fall into sin. Paul does make it very clear to us in Romans 7:12-25. We need to be on guard all the time not to let down less Satan find a way to use our flesh against us by causing us to lose faith. Have a nice Day.


einron profile image

einron 20 months ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

Thanks again. Peace!


BeatsMe profile image

BeatsMe 20 months ago

Nice hub. It can enlighten many Christians about how to behave and think righteously, but sinning is inevitable to every human being. We cannot escape it. :)


PlanksandNails profile image

PlanksandNails 20 months ago from among the Ekklesia

BeastMe,

("sinning is inevitable to every human being")

It is true that sin is inevitable, but those who are new creations in the Spirit of Jesus Christ do not live in a lifestyle of sin; otherwise, his power has been denied in their lives. Those who are slaves to sin are not of Christ.

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And **IF ** anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. - 1 John 2:1-2

John did not say **WHEN** someone sins we have an Advocate, but *IF**. **IF** means that something might possibly happen, but **WHEN** would assumes that it is going to happen.

If we are truly abiding in the Spirit of Christ, then by his power, the **WHEN** turns to **IF** freeing us from the bondage of a lifestyle of sin.


einron profile image

einron 4 weeks ago from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA Author

If one sins, ask God for forgiveness. Every time a child dirties his clothes, his mother would wash them before he wears them. Peace and God bless.

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