Quantum physics, is it science?

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   janesixposted 10 years ago

   A scientific theory must be able to make predictions.
   
   Quantum mechanics by it's very nature and laws cannot make predictions.
   
   Therefore, can quantum mechanics be considered science?
   
   Or is it just experimental metaphysics?

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      wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Why can't it make predictions?  Or perhaps I should ask why it isn't possible to learn enough about it to make predictions one day?

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         janesixposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Because only probabilities can ever be determined.

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            wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            So the future CAN be predicted, within limits set by probability.  Which is the best we can do with a whole host of actions.
            
            Which atom in a block of uranium will give up an neutron, a bit of radiation, and change to something else?  Which molecule of gas will touch the side of the container next?  What will the weather be tomorrow?  Will the next fertilized egg be a boy or a girl?  When will you die? 
            
            Statistics and probability are fields used every day of our lives - I don't see a reason to deny quantum mechanics the label of "science" because it does too.

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               janesixposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               My intention here isn't to deny quantum mechanics it's place in science. It's importance is beyond question. It can and should be studied thoroughly like all other disciplines.
               
               But there is a metaphysical nature to things which becomes clearer the farther down you go, down through things we can see, through chemistry, physics, and down to the quantum level.
               
               I want to discuss that aspect of it, the reality of things.

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                  wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  metaphysics: a division of philosophy that is concerned with the fundamental nature of reality and being and that includes ontology, cosmology, and often epistemology.
                  
                  Philosophy is not noted for finding reality, only the reality that the mind can conjure and imagine.  Completely subjective, in other words.
                  
                  Quantum mechanics is no more subjective than any other branch of science, and it is most definitely NOT a philosophical study.  Neither is it something out of the supernatural, although it may be (we don't know) at the root of reality.
                  
                  So if you wish to discuss the reality of things, the basis for all that is, the place to start is not philosophy.  Or did you mean something different by "metaphysical nature of things"?

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                     janesixposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     I want to take a look at and discuss what makes something "real".
                     
                     Such as, when you break down matter, you end up with nothing concrete. You can define aspects of particles and energy, but each thing depends on the other things to exist. No one's really ever defined satisfactorily what exactly a photon is, or what energy is, or what spin is, or anything else. You can measure and describe them in a way, but can't get at the essence of anything.

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                        wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        You may well be wanting to see something that isn't there.  There may not be a "reality" as you define it; at the bottom of it all there is only energy, after all.  Certainly not matter.

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                           janesixposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           You guys keep saying that everything is energy. That doesn't make any sense unless you can say what that is in any realistic way.
                           
                           Physics says that energy is motion, or work, or vibration.
                           
                           Do you have a different definition of energy?

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                              wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              Einstein taught us that matter IS energy.  The apple you eat, the hair on your head and the dog at your feel; all energy.  No need to say what it is in any "realistic" way; you already have a very good handle on it.
                              
                              You also detect energy directly with your eyes, your ears and even the skin (temperature is close enough to energy for us common folk).  You immediately determine that the energy of motion in two different masses are different, and even the potential energy in different things.  We all detect, use and understand energy very well.

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                              EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              Energy and matter can be transformed into each other. In other words, energy can be made from matter and matter can be made from energy. Einstein used this formula: E=mc^2 in which E is energy (in Joules), m is the mass of the object (the matter) and c is the speed of light which is squared. This formula shows that it takes a small amount of matter to make a large amount of energy, while on the flip side, it takes a large amount of energy to make a small amount of matter.

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                           janesixposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           "There may not be any reality as you define it"
                           
                           Yes. That's what I'm getting at. Don't you see that that now puts the matter into the realm of metaphysics?

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                              wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              No, I don't.  If "metaphysics" means a branch of philosophy, it most definitely isn't;  Quantum mechanics is NOT a construct of man's mind.  It is a field of study, looking at very physical things. 
                              
                              And so it cannot be "supernatural" either, defining that as anything not of this universe.  Those quantum particles most definitely exist, and we use them every day.  They are not supernatural at all.

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                                 janesixposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 I don't believe there is anything that is supernatural. I think it's all natural.

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                              wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              Adding on to that, understand that "reality" as you (and I) understand it may have absolutely nothing to do with reality.  It is possible that our perception and understand are wrong.  Thus there may be no reality as you define it; only reality that you perceived incorrectly.

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                                 janesixposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 I totally agree with that.

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                        EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        A photon is an elementary particle, the quantum of light and all other forms of electromagnetic radiation, and the force carrier for the electromagnetic force
                        
                        
                        
                        In physics, energy is one of the basic quantitative properties describing a physical system or object's state. Energy can be transformed (converted) among a number of forms that may each manifest and be measurable in differing ways. The law of conservation of energy states that the (total) energy of a system can increase or decrease only by transferring it in or out of the system. The total energy of a system can be calculated by simple addition when it is composed of multiple non-interacting parts or has multiple distinct forms of energy. Common energy forms include the kinetic energy of a moving object, the radiant energy carried by light and other electromagnetic radiation, and various types of potential energy such as gravitational and elastic.
                        
                        
                        
                        Angular momentum.

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            psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            All predictions are probabilistic.
            
            But in any case, science needs to be able to make generalizations,it does not need to be able to make predictions.

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      EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I would suspect that if you actually wanted to know, you would take the time to learn something about quantum field theory before creating a thread that shows you have no idea what you're talking about.
      
      Even Wiki can tell you something had you even bothered to look:
      
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_me … plications

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         janesixposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you, that was enlightening. Now I know what you mean when you say you do all your own research.

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      Marc Lambertposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Quantum Physics is part of mans on going attempt to change the supernatural into the natural as he has done since the sun god became photons and the plague became a disease, this will not be easy was medicine a science in its early stages its the same thing I say yes it is a science the new science that may be the start of evolutionary religions.
      Have a look at my Hub God is Goodness

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         janesixposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         I will check out your hub, thank you Marc.

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         EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         And yet, what it really is the behavior of matter and energy at very small scales, called The Plank Constant.

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   paradigmsearchposted 10 years ago

   I think I have just discovered the absolute worst time travel movie on the planet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lu9ujYEve0

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