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War on Christmas- Is This War Necessary?

Updated on August 18, 2016
WiccanSage profile image

Sage is a professional writer of 14 years, and a Wiccan of 25 years. Her religious ideas and experiences often inspire her work.

A Casualty In an Unnecessary War

Last night, I got yelled at by a total stranger.

I was grabbing a big pretzel at the mall. As I left the stand, I said, "Thank you. Happy holidays!" to the cashier. I hadn't given it a thought, really-- it just came out naturally. My mind had already moved onto how warm and toasty the pretzel felt when some big guy behind me actually yelled at me. "Leave CHRIST in CHRISTMAS!!!"

He startled me; I instinctively ducked slightly, almost dropping my pretzel and an expletive escaped my lips. I turned around to see what this was about and was surprised to see this guy on a bench glaring and pointing at me.

"It's Merry Christmas! Jesus is the reason for the season!" he shouted. At me. Again.

I have to admit-- he got my Brooklyn up a bit. Not that I mind people saying "Merry Christmas"; I don't. In fact, if I know someone celebrates Christmas, I'll say it myself. But don't tell me what to say, and certainly don't shout at me if I don't even know you.

There was a time when I wouldn't have hesitated to blast right back at him. When I get mad and let loose, I'm something of a verbal scorpion. But my little guy looked scared, and we were in a mall, and I'm not the young, sassy kid with the tough attitude anymore. I just shook my head and kept walking, whispering to my son that we should let the angry man be.

I came home and -- sure enough -- this War on Christmas was on the news over and over. Atheists put a billboard up insulting Christianity. A military base rips down a nativity scene. A public school changes the words to Silent Night. I can't help but wonder why people are making such a ta-do about it on either side.

Why exactly does this have to be a war?

Why do we even need to have a battle? Pass the eggnog!
Why do we even need to have a battle? Pass the eggnog! | Source

What Do You Think?

What do you think about the "Christmas Controversies"

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Was this really necessary...?

Couldn't they have practiced the 'art of kindness' and just talked about what they want to celebrate this season? There's nothing noble about insulting more than half the town in trying to promote 'kindness' .
Couldn't they have practiced the 'art of kindness' and just talked about what they want to celebrate this season? There's nothing noble about insulting more than half the town in trying to promote 'kindness' . | Source
The Atheist's Guide to Christmas
The Atheist's Guide to Christmas

It's supposed to be a fun season; maybe we could all learn about each other's views and lighten up a little and just enjoy it.

 

Why Pick On Christmas?

I totally sympathize with Christians. It seems that a lot of people interpret our Constitutional right for 'freedom of religion' to mean 'freedom from religion.' I don't think anyone should be forced to participate in religious holiday activities; but I don't think we need to run around hiding every sign of religion.

I see nothing wrong with a Christmas tree in a post office or a nativity scene on a courthouse lawn. What is the big deal? We all know that most people celebrate Christmas and hold these traditions dearly-- if they want to put up some decorations around the town, I don't see why they should be stopped. How holiday displays can be seen as 'offensive' is beyond me. This is not like forcing prayer in school or Creationism in the science class or burning witches in town square. If you can't merely look at a religious symbol without taking offense, maybe you're just a little too touchy. It's a decoration; get over it.

If you feel you must have your own display-- get together with people in your own belief group (or non-belief group, as the case may be), donate one. Surely if the town found a place on public property for a Christian display they can find space for a Winter Solstice display, or a Hanukkah display, and so on. But don't try to rain on someone else's parade.

And if you're going to have your own display-- why not make it a positive message about your own beliefs? Don't put up signs that deliberately poke at other people's beliefs with back-handed, passive-aggressive jabs. You can hardly wonder why some people feel you're waging war on them if your group puts up a billboard essentially saying "(Fill in the blank's) most deeply held and sacred beliefs are sucky and stupid and meaningless." And if you are going to put something like that out there, don't feign shock that people are offended and hurt by it.

What do you think?

Are you offended by 'Merry Christmas'?

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What Do You Think?

Are you offended by 'Happy Holidays'?

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Not Everyone Believes in Your Father...

Christmas traditions are part of our culture and many people's childhood. You can't stop people from upholding their treasured traditions in a secular way. It's a federal holiday, Christians don't own it-- we're all entitled to make it our own.
Christmas traditions are part of our culture and many people's childhood. You can't stop people from upholding their treasured traditions in a secular way. It's a federal holiday, Christians don't own it-- we're all entitled to make it our own. | Source

The War On Christmas?

The United States vs. Santa Claus: The Untold Story of the Actual War on Christmas
The United States vs. Santa Claus: The Untold Story of the Actual War on Christmas

Sometimes a satire like this can make us see how ridiculous we look.

 

Accept That The Season Is Not Owned by Christians

On the flip side of this war are some Christians who are outraged. They don't like to acknowledge that there are people with other beliefs and holidays at this time. They don't want public displays of a Pagan Winter Solstice scene, or an atheist display about a secular Christmas. They don't want to see the word 'holiday'.

If you want respect for your faith, you have to give respect to other people's beliefs as well. You just can't own the season. Other people have holidays. The practices of decorating evergreens, gathering with family & friends, feasting, merrymaking and giving gifts has been around since before there was a Christmas. Since before there was a Christ. This is because society changes and holidays are what you make of them-- Christians made many of these traditions their own, but that doesn't mean you have exclusive eternal rights to them.

Society is changing again, becoming more diverse and more secularized. You can't force people who no longer believe in your God to celebrate Jesus' birth at Christmas. For some people, the season is about family gatherings and the spirit of giving and really good eggnog. You can't put up road blocks and refuse to let people of other religions enjoy their own public displays, or sing their songs.

Just as I support your rights to be able to celebrate Christmas in your way, without Grinches and Scrooges trying to rip down public displays and take Christmas carols out of school concerts, I also support other people's rights to keep the holidays as they see fit-- to celebrate something else, or to celebrate Christmas non-religiously if they choose. Maybe if you didn't try to quash them from celebrating their own way, they wouldn't feel the need to make insensitive signs or call for religious decorations to be stripped from all public places.

You can't have it both ways-- either it's something for everyone to celebrate and deserving of the spotlight (therefore you must let people observe it as they wish) or it's strictly a Christian religious holiday (and therefore is a violation of the separation of church and state when pushed into a public arena-- and don't be shocked when it's challenged).

What Do You Think?

Do you think Christmas can be celebrated in a non-religious way?

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What Do You Think?

Do you think other people have a right to share the spotlight with Christmas in December?

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More People Need to Read This:

A Christmas Carol
A Christmas Carol

I read it every December. It is my favorite book. Though not Christian, it does help me appreciate Christmas from the perspective of those who celebrate it; and I think a Christian might be able to see from reading it that Christmas and its traditions can have meaning outside of Christ for those who don't share their belief in him.

 

The Reason For the Season

Peace.
Peace. | Source

Both Sides Fighting Makes Everyone Lose

I really think it is a very sad and vocal minority who is waging war from either side-- you're ruining your own holiday season. And the media outlets (who love to stir up trouble) are dampening everyone's spirits by taking sides and giving all the holiday warriors the spotlight.

The best thing anyone can do is stop being defensive and start spreading the cheer. Don't snap back at people. Don't have an 'I'll show them they can't get away with this' attitude. Allow people to say "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas" at will. Let everyone who wants to contribute to the seasonal décor and festivities do so. Let store owners decide whether they want to use the word "holiday" or "Christmas" on their signs. Let kids in school sing the songs they like at their little pageants-- even if there is religious references (it's just a song after all; not a sermon) and just enjoy the performance.

If we're supposed to be a diverse, tolerant, enlightened society, let's act like it. Instead of worrying about what "they" do, give more thought about what "you" are doing... do you need to rip someone's head off for not giving you greeting of choice? Can't you just take it as it was meant? If your town hall has been putting up the same decorations for 50 years, can you look at them as something that makes a lot of people happy? You can choose not to take it as a personal affront to your own beliefs (or lack thereof) and just let people enjoy the scenery.

There doesn't have to be any wars. We can celebrate what is meaningful to us, and let other people celebrate what is meaningful to them. There is enough overlapping of all the good messages about peace, hope and good will to find some common ground.There's enough to worry about in the world and in our personal lives that we don't need to wage war over how to celebrate a holiday.

What Do You Think?

What's your preferred greeting this time of year?

See results

Comments

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    • profile image

      MysticMoonlight 3 years ago

      Very well done, Sage. You articulate this subject so well, kudos to you. I really, really loved how you pointed out that this time of year means different things for different people, we all aren't the same and that's ok. It's a great message.

      I've been studying the history and meanings of different religions recently and I find it all fascinating. There is so much that I suspect many people do not know regarding original observances and traditions involving some holiday celebrations. A little research could calm many that are so vocally disapproving and intolerable of the beliefs of others. They may then feel a bit silly. :)

    • WiccanSage profile image
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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      Mystic, thank you so much. You make a great point about history-- it just shows how knowledge is power and really begins to open the mind and the way to understanding and compassion. As usual, your comments are much appreciated. Have a blessed Solstice!

    • Paul K Francis profile image

      Paul K Francis 3 years ago from east coast,USA

      Excellent hub. A little respect for the beliefs or non beliefs of others can only enhance our own. "Have a nice holiday" is something I find myself saying a lot this time of year. I mean it and I enjoy it, and despite all the Christmas wars out there, most people will respond positively to any sincere greeting. Again, I enjoyed your hub and I wish you a happy holiday and a wonderful Christmas season.

    • WiccanSage profile image
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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      Thank you Paul. I say 'happy holidays a lot too, but depending on the actual day or who I'm taking to it can change. The other day was Solstice so I went around saying happy Solstice; it's Christmas in a couple of days and I'll probably go around telling people Merry Christmas. I have Jewish friends I wish Happy Hannukah when it's their holiday. It just varies. I never understand why anyone would ever take offense to any friendly greeting, no matter how it's put. Merry Christmas to you and thanks so much for your comments!

    • DzyMsLizzy profile image

      Liz Elias 3 years ago from Oakley, CA

      I totally agree that the media is responsible for stirring the pot, as it were. That said, I do tend to get a bit irritated when someone wants to act like that guy you encountered at the mall. For pity sakes, let it go; not everyone shares your belief system, and some have no beliefs at all!

      I see nothing wrong with "Happy Holidays," because I am no mind reader, and I don't know what religion someone is or is not. There are many different celebrations at this time of year, and "Happy Holidays" nicely incorporates them all without stepping on any toes--except toes like that uptight guy, who perhaps deserves his toes stepped upon for being a chauvinistic ignoramus.

      The thing that gets my goat more than anything else, is why these sentiments of peace, goodwill, sharing, caring, food drives, warm coat and blanket drives, etc. should be limited to just one or two months of the year; people are in need all year, yet once the holidays are over, that is conveniently forgotten, and everyone goes back to business as usual, having salved their conscience with a small donation, they think the problem goes away till next year. And street violence and wars continue despite. THAT's what chaps my hide.

      Peace and goodwill to all, all the time.

      Voted up, interesting, useful, and awesome.

    • WiccanSage profile image
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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      I agree DzyMsLizzy, this grumpy dude was out of line. I was/am in shock at this event. He's certainly not helping his "cause'-- he'd do a lot better going around helping others than screaming at them about what to say. It reminded me of the news story last year of the woman who punched a Salvation Army bell ringer for saying 'Happy Holidays'. And now just this morning in the news, a group of children who wrote "Merry Christmas" and "God Bless" in cards for disabled veterans got their cards returned to them because the VA office says the cards are offensive in nature. I'm like, WTH? It's out of hand.

      I just finished reading A Christmas Carol this weekend (I read it every December) and the message of keeping that spirit of charity, goodwill, kindness and cheer all year really got me thinking. There's so much more most of us can do year-round. That's the most important message.

      Thank you so much for your comments!

    • ChristinS profile image

      Christin Sander 3 years ago from Midwest

      I definitely agree. I think this war on Christmas is manufactured and I think everyone should learn to leave others to believe (or not) as they see fit. I don't have a problem with the religious, so long as they leave me alone and I have no need to "deconvert" anyone either. Live and let live and let everyone enjoy the season for whatever reason :) great post.

    • WiccanSage profile image
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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      Live and let live is exactly it. There's really no point in any of this fighting. Thank you for your comment, enjoy your holidays!

    • SweetiePie profile image

      SweetiePie 3 years ago from Southern California, USA

      The guy is a dodo. Happy Holidays is an expression that has been used in the US for decades. In 1941 Irving Berlin penned the song Happy Holiday, so I guess maybe the irate dude in the mall should hop in his time machine and go yell at this famous composer. Honestly, I just ignore the brouhaha these types make, and it shows they do not have an original thoughts in their heads.

    • WiccanSage profile image
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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      I know, I find it baffling. I grew up in a diverse NYC neighborhood, most people said 'happy holidays' out in general to strangers or at stores... this is back in the 70s and 80s, so I got so used to it. When I first heard people actually complain about it and say it was offensive, I was very surprised. I was equally surprised to hear Merry Christmas offended some people. But I think yelling at people in shopping malls goes a little beyond and borders on insanity... with all the mall shootings lately, I thought it best to leave it alone. Thanks so much for your comment!

    • Richawriter profile image

      Richard J ONeill 3 years ago from Bangkok, Thailand

      Well now that is a thought provoking piece and something for me, as an Englishman or British man to chew over and compare to my own culture.

      In Britain, especially in England, it's less to do with religion and much more to do with family get-togethers and that wonderful opportunity to see your children believe as you once did.

      It's never been about religion for me. Only about love and the spirit of union between us all at this time of year (though in the forums during an argument recently, I wished someone Merry Christmas multiple times and was completely ignored).

      In England, I hear that Merry Christmas is being attacked by other cultures living in Blighty because they feel it is not fair, or something along those lines. It's even been brought up that we are not allowed to wave the Saint George flag or have it outside our homes!!! Incredible.

      I'll always say Merry Christmas but that's only because the words hold genuine magic for me.

      Great hub. So interactive and thoughtful.

      Merry Christmas and I hope you have a wonderful New Year!

      Rich

    • WiccanSage profile image
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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      Thanks so much, Rich; I hope you had a wonderful Christmas and wish you a Happy New Year as well. Thanks for letting some of us know what's going on over in Britain with this topic. Your comments are much appreciated!

    • CarolynEmerick profile image

      Carolyn Emerick 3 years ago

      I wrote on his topic too in another forum. I pointed out that the holiday was Yule before it was every Christmas. Christmas/Christians waged a war on Yule/paganism. So the war of Christmas is totally hypocritical :-). and Good Yule!

    • billybuc profile image

      Bill Holland 3 years ago from Olympia, WA

      In the name of all that is "holy" I just don't give a rip what people say during the holiday season. Why should I? I have my hands full just taking care of the way I act; I don't need to be the PC police for others. This topic chafes my ass quite frankly. People need to chill out and accept that they are not the only ones walking this planet. I think you did remarkably well considering the situation.

    • WiccanSage profile image
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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      Thanks so much for your comment Carolyn. It would be nice if we could all just enjoy our holidays this time of year together, without bickering over silly things like what to say. Thanks for stopping by.

    • WiccanSage profile image
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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      Hi Billy, thank you; I used to be a tough-mouthed little twerp who looked just for fights like that so it felt good to be able to walk away. I know how you feel-- I don't understand why people seem to be going out of their way to spread holiday strife. It makes the season so much better if we make someone smile instead of put someone down. Thanks so much for your comment!

    • CraftytotheCore profile image

      CraftytotheCore 3 years ago

      I love the beginning of this about how you describe the pretzel booth. I feel like I'm there. The description of your experience was so alive in your words.

      I think that's terrible that someone yelled at you for saying happy holidays. The people that shout the loudest that they are expressing their right to free expression of their belief in Christmas, are most often the worst offenders against the holiday they are supposedly celebrating. Do they really think a proper outcome of shouting at someone in a mall is going to make people more likely to celebrate Christmas?

      I sent out almost 100 Christmas cards about 10 years ago to people of all faiths, religious, non faiths or whatever. I put Happy Holidays in the cards. I have friends all over. Jewish, Christian, people who don't believe, etc. One person was offended that I wrote Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. And again I say to that, well, openly expressing a distaste to not saying Merry Christmas isn't really helping the cause at all. It's just adding fuel to the war.

      In my opinion, I think that people need to mind their business. Why did it bother that man that you said Happy Holidays? What right did he have to judge you? So to that I say, he needs to work on his own problem with arrogance before shouting off the hip about the problem he has with your words.

    • WiccanSage profile image
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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      I have a pretty diverse group of friends. My family is half Catholic & half Pagan; my husband's family is Santerian; and we go to a UU church and I teach Sunday school there, so we have friends of a lot of different faiths. And most of my friends I met through homeschooling groups are Christian. So I never really think much about seasonal greetings-- I give them all, I hear them all, I'm comfortable with them all. That's why this thing caught me so off guard. I agree, people need to take it as it's given. Thanks so much for your comments, Crafty.

    • profile image

      OllieTrolley 3 years ago

      I'm training to be a Wiccan... Does that mean I can't celebrate Christmas...? I mean, my parents will be awfully suspicious if I stop celebrating, as they are all Christian....

      what should I do...?!

    • WiccanSage profile image
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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 3 years ago

      Hi again Ollie! Wicca is a religion and we definitely have our own Gods and holidays separate from Christianity. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with going and celebrating Christmas with your family, or any holiday with them, or going to church with them if you want, or praying with them, etc.

      Wicca isn't a religion that prohibits exposure to other religions. Lots of Wiccans celebrate the Winter Solstice religiously, then go and join family/friends for their Christian celebrations; my family does this too.

    • jackclee lm profile image

      Jack Lee 18 months ago from Yorktown NY

      I came across your hub by accident while writing my hub. Perhaps it will give you a different perspective.

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-War-O...

      Peace.

    • WiccanSage profile image
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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 18 months ago

      Hi Jackclee; I read your hub and found it interesting, but it did not actually change my mind. I think Christians have every right to celebrate Christmas, and others have every right to celebrate what they want, too. I think all people should stop this silly warring and express themselves in the way they want. It is the holiday season, in which many people celebrate different events in different ways.

      And being a capitalist and Republican, I tend to side with businesses of having the freedom to decide how their employees should dress and present themselves, which includes how they feel their employees should greet the customers. If a business wants their employees to say 'Merry Christmas' to customers, the employees should do so when they are working; likewise, if they want their employee to say 'Happy Holidays,' the employee should do so.

      Frankly I'm as sick of atheists telling communities that the children in school may not sing Christmas carols, or that the post office may not put up a Christmas tree, so I can understand your frustration with that. But I am sick of Christians telling me I'm supposed to pretend to be celebrating their holiday in December and can't bring up my own, as if my celebration or my choice of holiday greeting somehow can interfere with their enjoyment. Both, IMO, are getting equally ridiculous.

      I am not a Christian, and I do not celebrate Christmas, and I have always said 'Happy Holidays' as a greeting to people since childhood, which is before any Christians ever thought to take offense to it. I do not think anyone has a right to tell me what to say, or yell at me for what is to me a very friendly greeting that comes naturally to me. Believe me, my intention is certainly not 'poking' at Christians; I'm just trying to enjoy myself and celebrate what I believe in, too.

      Also, I don't agree that this is, or ever was, a Christian nation. The founding fathers went out of their way to not make this a Christian nation. The rights we are given in the Constitution explicitly give us the rights to not be Christian. John Adams, founding father, even stated in the Treaty of Tripoli, "Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

      So thank you for sharing your article, but in all honesty I do not see your point. I'm posting this here rather than on your article because I don't like leaving negative comments on people's Hubs, so I hope you understand that is why I didn't say anything. But sorry... you haven't changed my mind. Both sides are being getting ridiculous sometimes and should stop this nonsense battle over how people should enjoy what should really be a time of peace and good will.

    • jackclee lm profile image

      Jack Lee 18 months ago from Yorktown NY

      Thanks for taking time to reply. I have no problem with your response. You and majority of non-christians have the right mind set with regard to Christmas. The problem is with the small minority activists and you do agree that they exist and they are the ones stirring this conflict. Do you believe the spearation of church and state means no mention of God in the public square? That is the crux of this debate. Saying merry Christmas or not is not a main point as stated in my hub. Businesses have no power to dictate what their employee should say. It is a first amendment right. With regard to America being not a Christian nation, I disagree with you on this point. I can cite many examples of this in the writings of our founding fathers. To also prove my point, I will ask you to look up the lyrics to the Star Spangled Banner and the fourth stanza. Our national anthem is sung with only the first stanza but read the rest of that and tell me we are not a Christian nation.

    • WiccanSage profile image
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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 17 months ago

      Hi Jackclee; actually I believe both sides are stirring the conflict, as I mentioned above in my article. There are activists on both sides who I frankly find offensive-- not because of any particular belief they may hold or not hold, but because of their militant demand that everyone cater to their beliefs (or lack thereof).

      As for no mention of God in public square-- which God? In what circumstance? I'm all for it if a group of people in the public square feel like praying to Zeus, or Odin, or Jesus, or YHWH, or Aphrodite, or Satan. That's their business.

      When one group expects everyone to participate in their prayers, or stand around watching/listening to them praying when they could do that on their own time rather than when we have business at hand for a diverse group-- then prayers would be inappropriate to schedule.

      I *absolutely* believe that businesses have the power to dictate how employees greet the customers that walk into the business, so I disagree with you there. I am a free-market capitalist who believes business owners have rights (such as wedding industry workers having the freedom to turn down business that might be against their beliefs). If my employer wanted me to say "Merry Christmas," I would say absolutely say it-- even though I am not Christian.

      Likewise, if an employer wants an employee to say, "Happy Holidays," they should say it. What their personal religious beliefs might be are completely irrelevant to the choice of greeting that the employer prefers for his own business demographic, and there is absolutely nothing offensive about saying "Happy Holidays," unless you're of a mindset dead-set on being preachy and perpetuating this nonsensical 'war'. "Happy Holidays" is a perfectly amicable greeting.

      I believe that if people who work in a post office or DMV or city hall want to decorate with a Christmas tree, they should be able to put one up. It's a decoration. No one is being asked to worship it. Likewise, if their Jewish co-worker puts a menorah on the counter, that's fine. If a Wiccan co-worker brings in a Winter Solstice pentagram wreath, that's fine. It's just decoration, for Pete's sakes.

      But I do believe signs just designed to insult people with beliefs is in poor spirit. Atheists should be free to put up whatever decor/displays they find meaningful as well, for promoting good will and celebrating the season in a secular way... but I find preaching and insulting anyone's beliefs on a billboard, by any group, to be simply a bad attitude. Decoration does not offend me; arrogance and insensitivity do.

      Curious, would you support Wiccans, Satanists, etc. to put up decorations in the public square, or lead prayer? Are you supporting religious freedom for all equally, or for only one or some groups in particular? Because I have to be honest, I find those who advocate religious freedom, but only for some and not for all, to be quite insincere and hypocritical.

      I AM familiar with the Star Spangle Banner, but I must vehemently disagree that America is a "Christian Nation" or that the song has any relevance in that argument. Did you not know that Star Spangled Banner was not adopted as our anthem until the 1900s, far after our founding fathers were in their graves? When Key wrote the 4th stanza, it was not our national anthem; it was just a song, written by a guy, who happened to be Christian. That in NO WAY means our founding fathers endorsed this song, and this song written and adopted as anthem so long after the fact certainly has no bearing on the founding of the country.

      It is merely a nation that was originally majority Christians, but it has always been a secular nation. This is why religious language often made its way into certain writings, but the Constitution makes it clear that this is not a relation founded on any religion. I think our Founding Fathers intentions were clear on their position in all the relevant documents.

      MUCH more relevant to the mindset of the founding fathers an excerpt from the Treaty of Tripoli, the first treaty of our young nation:

      "Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

      If you're not familiar with it, I urge you to look it up. It puts to rest any question of what founding fathers had intended in the Constitution.

      Hope that answers some of your questions.

    • SweetiePie profile image

      SweetiePie 17 months ago from Southern California, USA

      What is everyone upset about? I think at school holidays have been toned down a bit because these are public spaces, and not everyone celebrates Christmas. As for people getting really upset about the war on Christmas, the Puritans did not really even celebrate it. Calvinist faiths considered Christmas to be a Catholic and bawdy ritual, and the most they did was pray on Christmas day. Also turns out the dither about the happy holidays thing is just that, and people were saying it back in the 1860s. I honestly do not get the religious food fights on either side of the spectrum. It makes us stuck somewhere in the middle run for the hills. Also, in response to the what businesses are allowed to instruct their employees to say, they do have some rights about that. If there is a policy saying you cannot say a certain thing, then a company has the right to institute it. You might have freedom of speech to say what you want if you do not agree with it, but the business can also say perhaps they want to hire someone who will follow their rules. There are a lot of things people might say on their own time that are not appropriate at work. Like would someone bring up their political views at a business meeting?

    • jackclee lm profile image

      Jack Lee 17 months ago from Yorktown NY

      Wiccansage, Sweetiepie, from your long responses, I can see how you are paasionate about your beliefs. I have no problem with that. I do think you are missing my point on all of this. Ask yourself one question. Back in the 1960 and 1970s, did you come across any of this? Be honest. I grow up in that era and attended public schools in NYC, the liberal town. There was no controversy about any of this. So what happened? Your premise that this came about equally from both sides are false. The debate started by atheists and humanist activists. They couldn't get there way in the public square and used the courts to do their bidding via the ACLU... You don't have to take my word for it. You can do your own research and the information is out there. Their own words and deeds are the evidence. Peace.

    • jackclee lm profile image

      Jack Lee 17 months ago from Yorktown NY

      By the way, my family is buddist growing up. I only converted to Christianity in my 40's. It took me a year of study and discernment before making the personal commitment. No govenment or pressure influenced me. It was a personal choice as it should be.

    • WiccanSage profile image
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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      Hi Jacklee; in my experience at the time (70s & 80s in NYC), no one of any religion (including Christmas) had any problem with people saying 'Happy Holidays'... it was common. So were cards that said 'Season's Greetings.'

      The only time I ever heard it was considered an insult was from Christians, and that people should only say 'Merry Christmas', and that businesses using 'Happy Holidays' or calling the season the 'Holiday Season' was somehow dissing Christians. I understand what you have said, I just disagree. People should say what they want... if I say 'Happy Holidays', and you find it as some kind of offense, well-- that's not my problem. If you say 'Merry Christmas,' I will take it in the spirit in which it was intended, even if it wasn't my personal preferred wording for holiday well wishes. I do not think it hurts Christians to make the holidays more inclusive, just as I don't think it hurts society when Christians celebrate their holidays publicly. As long as they don't try to stop others from celebrating the holidays their way, there's no problem.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      Exactly. I'm so glad you have that choice.

      I was raised in a Christian family, and I made my choice in my 20s to follow a faith that called me more.

      I hope you see why it is important for others to have that choice just as you and I did.

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      It's been a while since my last comment. In the meanwhile, I created a hub to explore this further -

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-War-O...

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      SweetiePie 8 months ago from Southern California, USA

      Have you read the history about how some early groups, such as the Calivinists and Puritans, did not even celebrate Christmas? They might have extended prayers and a few decorations, but Christmas was not even celebrated to the extent it is today until the 1860s. Actually, concepts such as the Christmas tree was a German tradition, and Queen Victoria popularized it in the 19th century. There was a time when some strict Protestants wanted to get away from what they considered Catholic celebrations such as Christmas, so there were Christians who were not even big on Christmas celebrations. Some austere Christians, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, do not even celebrate the holiday.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      SweetiePie, yes. It's fascinating. I found out that Christmas was mostly outlawed, and the the New York City Police were started to stop Christmas revelry.

      I also learned how Charles Dickens pretty much changed what Christmas was-- people started modeling their traditions after A Christmas Carol in the 1800s; Dickens was romanticizing Christmas, and life followed art, not the other way around.

      People who did celebrate Christmas before then, it was a very quiet event-- a mass/service, or prayers. Not a day off, not a big family ta-doo.

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      Christmas celebration evolved with the times and nothing wrong with that. It has only become too commercialized recent years where the emphasis was placed on gifting rather than religious significance. If it isn't for Christmas, many retail stores would not be in the black. That's the origin for Black Friday.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      Jackclee; I honestly don't understand why you keep telling me things like this. I've said time & time again, I like Christmas. I think Christians should be free to celebrate it, say 'Merry Christmas,' call the holiday 'Christmas' in their businesses, etc. You get that, right? That I have nothing against people celebrating Christmas. Christmas has become a popular holiday and given many families and communities some beautiful traditions. It's lovely.

      But if you're trying to get me to agree that Christians have some right to stop others from taking traditions and running with them, celebrating and expressing themselves in the way the want, well that is just not going to happen.Christians just don't get to hold the end of December hostage and keep it from everyone else.

      It doesn't really matter if Christians are the majority in this country, or if Christmas is considered a religious holiday to Christians (as we know it today; Christmas changed a lot over the centuries and some traditions even have pre-Christian roots). The Constitution gives everyone the right to do as they wish in these matters and prevents any one religion from stepping in and imposing their traditions on others. A major function of the Constitution is to protect the minority from the majority.

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      If you read my hub on this topic, It is not the Christians that started this so called war. The Christians have not been the oppressers. It is as I explained the atheists and the ACLU groups that started this. If you want to learn more about the Freedom of Religion and the separation of Church and State, I'll be glad to explain them. Or you can read up on the Constitution and the framers. What they wrote in their own words and debated before signing the Constitution.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      Jackee, I don't lack an education. I do however lack agreement on your interpretation of events, particularly on whether this means Christians have an exclusivity contract on holiday festivities in December.

      I've gotten into months-long debates on message boards over American history and Christianity and frankly I'm bored with the discussion. I understand the common Christian point of view on this, and in my mind your arguments are simply misguided and a lot of wishful thinking. Such as, what the founding fathers debated and discussed in drafting the Constitution is irrelevant. Even Ben Franklin's famous speech in closing the Continental Congress acknowledged that everyone had their objections to parts of the Constitution and no one thought it was a perfect document, but that they should go forth and unanimously recommend in totum. Which means anything they wrote in their own words or debated before the Constitution was signed are simply ideas that didn't make the cut, and entirely irrelevant.

      But when it comes down to it, it wouldn't change the basic simple fact: the Constitution gives everyone equal rights. Equal rights to run their businesses, to celebrate their holidays, and to say whatever we want to say to people when we encounter them in December. Nit-picking on every historic detail for the last 200+ years doesn't change that.

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      Wiccansage, I agree with part of what you said. So who started this war on Christmas? Not Christians? and then who denied there was even a war? Not Christians... What does that tell you?

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      Hi Jackclee... it's not a real war. You realize that, right? Or at least, I hope you realize that's how I view it. Christians started this 'war on Christmas' campaign, because they thought other people were 'waging war' on them. So Christians are the ones who declared this whole thing a 'war'. So yes, the idea that it was a 'war' started with Christians.

      Non-Christians who happened to realize there were other holidays in December, and perhaps wanted to acknowledge them, were not trying to go to war against Christmas. We were just doing our thing, and it quite stunned us that Christians took this as a 'war' against them. And I'm sorry some non-Christians took the bait on that and turned around and started throwing mud back.

      There's no real thing to be fighting over, no one is going to 'win' until everyone stops fighting.

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      That's where we disagree. Christians did not start it and you are wrong, it is a war. The war is started by the ACLU and other Atheists groups. They want to remove God from the public square - any God not just the Christian God, it was just the dominant religion at the time.

      You don't have to take my word for it. Just go to their sites and read what they want to do? Our country has gone down hill for a while and it is no coincidence that the very fabric of our society is being ripped apart from within. You may not recognized it but it is happening. Marx and Alinsky are cheering...

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      Btw, I want to ask you a question. What do you think motivates someone or some group to petition to remove all head stones in the shape of a cross from all National Cemeteries - in the name of Separation of Church and State...? It happened... The same people who wants to remove the 10 Commandments from court houses and In God We Trust from our currency...

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      I don't think the ACLU started it at all. I think it went like this: people become more secularized--> started getting more inclusive doing their own thing without any intentions of offending Christians --> some Christians declared it a 'war' against them that non-Christians were making changes --> some Christians made a stink telling people what to say and do --> some non-Christians turned around to poke sticks back at the angry Christians --> more organizations (churches, ACLU, etc.) got involved --> the war is ongoing.

      And by war, I don't mean a real 'war' as in anyone fighting some noble cause. I mean more like in the sense of your aunt and uncle bickering and trying to one-up each other and stamping their feet to get their way about how the family should celebrate, and ruining everyone else's holiday in the meantime. That's the kind of 'war' it is from my point of view.

      I'm sorry you take it as a threat that not everyone is Christian, or wants to be Christian, or wants to do what you wish everyone would do. Christians definitely deserve equal rights, and I would fight for that. They do not, however, deserve special privileges, which is what I see this whole war of yours asking for. You got away with putting your God in the public square for a long time after Christianity started dominating the Western World. But you don't anymore, and that's just a fact. It's a free country, it belongs to all of us, the law says we're supposed to all have equal rights, and society changes and evolves. You guys have to come to terms with that. You really can't expect people to be sensitive to your push to keep Christianity and Christianity alone in the public square when you all push so hard to keep everyone else out of it, can you?

      You're right, we fundamentally disagree.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      Maybe the same thing that motivated Christians to try and ban Pagans in the military from getting their religious symbol placed on their gravestones? Maybe you weren't aware of that, but for my community that legal battle went on for us for over a decade.

      I personally think it's horrible to remove or deny any religious person the symbol of choice on their tombstone... but again, I doubt you agree. I wouldn't even be surprised if you were one of the people fighting against Pagans getting their symbols You seem only concerned with Christians getting special privileges, not everyone getting equal rights. This is why I can't relate to you; I don't just want rights to apply to my religion, I want them to be equal in these matters for everyone. I am unabashedly and fully a free market capitalist who believes private institutions can do what they want in their businesses, but that government-run institutions should not favor any single belief or faith. It might have been socially acceptable in the past, but times have changed and it's no longer socially acceptable anymore as diversity is ever-increasing.

      I don't see a meeting of our minds, ever. We could probably go on like this forever.

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      It's a free country and you can believe what ever you wish. No one is stopping you and certainly not Christians that I know. You can turn a blind eye on what is going on in our country again your choice. The country is changing and its debatable whether it is bettter or worse.

      However, groups like the ACLU is different. I write about it in my other hubs. They have an agenda and they are working behind the scenes and through our courts to get what they want, which is a secular society. That is what we Christians object to... We can agree to disagree. Peace.

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      Wiccansage, at least you are honest about what you believe and I give you credit for that. You are wrong about me though. I am a Constitutionalist and free market Capitalist and Christian. I don't pretend to favor one religion over another. I do believe we were founded as a Christian Nation. Our founders were smart in keeping religion away from our government but more important of keeping government from encroaching on religion.

      That is the "establishment clause". The Supreme court has miss interpreted that into removing everything religious from the public square. Anyone who has studied history should know that is not what they intended. Read many of the writings of the founders and you will find references to God and faith and divine providence...

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      I don't turn a blind eye on what is going on in the country. I just disagree with you on some of the claims you make. I don't agree with everything the ACLU says/does, and I don't agree with everything Christians say/do. I think your objections in some cases are fair points, and sometimes completely unfounded.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      Ah, well I don't believe we were founded as a Christian Nation... just a nation that happened to be a majority of Christians.

      You say the Supreme Court misinterprets the establishment clause... that's the thing about interpretation, it's subject to opinion. Many would disagree with you.

      As I told you before, I have done my research on these things, read books, read documents, participated in debates and discussions, heard both sides (I was raised Christian and remained so into my 20s, even going to Christian schools). I'm not oblivious to the arguments you support. I just for the most part completely disagree with your position.

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      I will agree to disagree. At least you are more open and willing to debate and understand the issues at stake.

      BTW, if we weren't founded as a Christian nation, then what are we founded as? why do our forefathers rely so much on the Creator as the source of our unalienable rights? why did they pray before major meetings? why did we swear on a stack of Bible in court proceedings? why we display the 10 Commandments in the Supreme Court building? why... why... why... so many questions... Please don't try and re-write our history as some atheists have tried. It makes you loose credibility.

      I wrote extensively on this topic and don't want to repeat myself. You can check it out in some of my other hubs... Peace.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      Jacklee, agree to disagree is probably the closest we're going to come to any agreement at all. I am not an atheist, first of all, nor am I Christian. I'm not taking sides, I'm just giving my opinion, regardless of who else's opinion it happens to line up with. And second, it's not a matter of re-writing history; it's a matter of interpretation. I'm sure you think a lot of atheists interpretations are incorrect. I think Christians who believe this is a Christian nation are the ones interpreting history incorrectly. If in your eyes that makes me lose credibility, well, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ... I'm just being honest about seems to be the facts.

      As for all your 'why's'-- okay, I'm going to go there a little. Please understand that this is exactly how I see it, and you may agree to disagree... but I'm done arguing about it. You just seem to really want to know my reasoning, so I'll indulge.

      Why do you think they chose a generic term like 'the Creator' instead of 'God'? Why did they not even mention 'Creator' in the Constitution? Why did they give us freedom of religion, the right not to be Christian? Because they were not founding a Christian nation, that's why. At least that's astoundingly clear to me. If we were a Christian Nation, it would have been in the Constitution. It wasn't.

      Even the first treaty ratified by one of those forefathers, President John Adams, read: 'The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.'

      I know they mention "the Creator' in the Declaration of Independence, but there was a specific reason for that-- it was for a specific reason. In England they believe that the King was appointed by *divine right*, and the founding fathers (many of whom were deists, not Christian, as I'm sure you know) were taking jabs at King George III. But seeing how the Dec. of Ind. is not a U.S. legal document, nor does it have anything to do with the government that was established, that's neither here nor there. It's irrelevant to the discussion, but again, I'll remind you that they specifically went out of their way to stay away from terms like 'God' for a reason. You can't even argue that America is a Christian Nation based solely on the Constitution; you have to go to each individual founding father's opinions and writings and dig through it to put together a case-- but as I pointed out in a previous post, Ben Franklin pretty much made all that moot with his speech that they should moving forward as a united front with the document. Individual intentions and opinions that didn't make it into the document are just not relevant.

      Why we swear on Bibles, why we display 10 Commandments, etc. etc,-- very easy. This was the times. Christianity had spread through Europe, Europeans settled America, and this was par for the course. Christians continued to assume privileges because everyone was just used to it being that way. The small minority of non-Christians couldn't really do much about it, even if they didn't fear speaking out they had too small a voice to be taken seriously.

      Time marched on and times are changing. The beauty of what our founding fathers did with the Constitution was to allow that change. They called it a Christian country in terms of it being almost entirely consisting of Christians, and because of the times; but I am convinced that the founding fathers (most of them) were more concerned about liberty and equality for all than about preserving a pure Christian nation, which is why God, Jesus, the Bible, the 10 Commandments and even the word 'Christian' got left out of the actual Constitution.

      The Constitution gives us all equality, and separated church and state for a reason. While still majority Christian in this country, there has been a decrease in Christianity and an increase in other beliefs and philosophies. Even within those who identify as Christian, a large portion do not consider themselves very religious. The landscape continues to change.

      I agree with you that sometimes people take it to extremes against Christians. For example, while I 100% agree with LGBT rights to legally marry regardless of how Christians feel about it, I 100% disagree with forcing Christian wedding industry workers to participate in the event. While I 100% agree with reproductive rights and a woman's right to choose, I 100% disagree with people trying to force Christian doctors to perform abortions, or force Christian businesses to provide medical benefits to cover them. There has to be balance, fair balance, when two groups' rights clash. Not one group steamrolling over the other.

      I also don't think there needs to be such an uproar if a judge puts up the 10 Commandments in his courtroom, or if a Christian DMV worker puts a cross picture on her cubicle. People get stupid.

      HOWEVER, I do not believe these privileges should be extended ONLY to Christians... I think a Pagan judge should be equally as free to hang the Wiccan Rede in his courtroom, or a Satanist DMV worker should be allowed to put up a pentagram if they want. Equal rights. And, to get back to the point of the original article I wrote here-- DON'T tell me how I should greet people during the holidays, or what kind of terms I use in MY private business when December rolls around.

      I really think Christmas is beautiful and have no problem with a radio station choosing Christmas songs 24/7 or with tv stations broadcasting Christmas specials or with stores that choose to run 'Christmas sales' and hang pictures of Jesus in the windows-- these are private businesses. That's fine. I don't even have a problem with a little revelry making its way into a public institution, but if that's the case you have to open it to ALL who want to participate. You can't steamroll over everyone else.

      I know you wrote extensively on all this, but that's not my hang-up. I browsed a couple, I don't agree, and I didn't start this Hub to argue the foundations of the American government (lol, I practically have written a hub here in this response, lol). So, I'll be dropping out of that conversation as of now. I was merely pointing out that there's room for everyone to celebrate their beliefs and traditions that they hold dear in December, no one has to take such offense at one person's choice of greeting, decoration, or of the attempt to make public celebrations more inclusive. How the conversation has derailed and gone on its own track... and this is where I get off.

      I respect that you have convictions and you speak your mind about that. I really do. I don't agree, but THAT is what the founding fathers did have in mind, and what the Constitution encourages. :o)

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      No doubt our country is changing and Christianity is in decline while Islam is increasing. There is a correlation between the well being of our country and religiocity of our citizens. Remember right after 9/11, for a brief moment, people went to church to heal... You may be right, the world is changing and with the help of the ACLU...we are becoming a more secular nation. I may be one of the lone voice in the crowd warning of our decline. Time will tell if I am right...

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      Jacklee, I simply don't see the correlation. My friends had rituals and meditations when 911 happened to heal, we didn't need to dominate the rest of the country with our religion in order to do that. I'm not advocating a religion-less society, I'm advocating acceptance of diverse beliefs equally, and also giving people space where those beliefs might clash.

      The world is changing because people are changing, Jacklee. People aren't running to the ACLU to convert, they simply resonate more with the message of tolerance and diversity and keeping a secular government. The ACLU came out of those feelings, it did not start them.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      And I don't see that as a decline, by the way, I see it as us growing and evolving as a society.

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      So 40% divorce rate is evolving...70% out of wedlock birth in the black community is evolving... 50% illiteracy in the inner cities is evolving...75% of college students believe cheating is acceptible as long as you don't get caught...welfare fraud all-time high is evolving... 1 million fetus aborted each year is evolving...I could go on but what's point. You are indoctrinated by the secular group who thinks big government is the solution. Have you read Animal Farm? We are heading down that road.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      Jackclee, I am well aware that our world faces many problems. But surely you are aware that we had very serious problems when almost everyone was Christian, when there was prayer in school, when it was Christmas or nothing in December, when no one challenged Christians pushing their religion into the public square. You DO realize that, right?

      Yes, the world faces problems. But oppression of religious minorities, stifling free speech and turning the country into a theocracy isn't going to fix those problems, it'll just bring on a whole set of new problems.

      I also think it's funny you think I'm the one who is indoctrinated by 'the secular group who thinks big government is the solution,' lol (I'm not even a Democrat, hon. I'm a Libertarian-leaning Republican whose key issue is small government). Small government is the solution to a lot of problems; that small government need not be Christian, however. In fact, it's better for the country if it's not.

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      How is it better? I am not trying to be confrontational. But explain to me how a non religious based civilization will be better? Name one country that is represented what you propose in past history or present? I am not saying a Christian nation is the only way but history has shown we have done the best...so far.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      I don't believe in utopias, Jacklee. Where there are people, things get screwed up. Things have been screwed up when people were very religious (any religion) very badly I might add (persecution, prejudice, oppression, subjugation, violence, etc., etc.). Yes, there are problems that have arisen from society's evolution, but on the flip side there are problems that are getting better (frankly I'd take a high divorce rate is a minor problem compared to laws that ban certain people from getting married due to discrimination, or social stigmas that force women to stay with abusive husbands in loveless marriages).

      On the whole, though, I don't blame the problems on religion or on secularism; I blame it on people.

      I think people can get their proverbial poop together whether they're religious or not; but I don't believe forcing a society to be religious, particularly one single religion when people are clearly feeling led elsewhere, will ever be to that society's benefit.

      I'm not at all proposing a ban on religion in our country; only equality and inclusiveness when it comes to issues of religion. I don't think any religious group should be granted the right to steamroll over all others (and non-religious groups as well) and dominate. I don't see how that would solve any problems or make anything better because the only way to do that is to deny people freedom. We'd be taking a step backwards.

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      I agree with you half way. I belief in our Constitution and the Bill of Rights. However, I don't agree that all religion are equal. It is obvious to me that some religion are more radical and more of a cult. I would not want them equally presented. If they are able to convince enough people, all the power to them. I belief our country was founded on Judeo Christian philosophy and it has served us well, until the modern days when we rejected God and especially with Roe vs. Wade ruling by the Supreme Court. Many of our social problems can be traced to a breakdown in our family unit and the war on poverty started by Lyndon Johnson. I can go into details but it probably won't convince you.

      What is happening to our country today has been repeated down through human history. The Jewish people experienced it thousand of years ago and the Roman Empire fell due to decadence and corruption unlike what is happening to our society with Hollywood...and the drug culture... The writing is on the wall...

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      Hi Jacklee. I shudder to think of a country in which one religion gets to decide which other religions are cults and should not be allowed. Sounds to me like what ISIS is trying to do. I think what's really served us, and continued to serve us, is freedom, and a Constitution that guarantees that freedom, even freedom of religion.

      I just don't see that people have been saved from dark times in history by Christianity... many of our darkest times in the world the majority of the western world has been Christian. That doesn't make Christianity bad; but allowing Christians to trample over the freedom of others and take over is certainly not going to make a problem-free world. We need to solve many problems... but not by forcing religion on people. Again, just look at the countries where that is being done. They certainly do not represent an improvement.

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      Wiccansage, please don't us this moral equivalency argument. Christianity has nothing in common with ISIS, or some cults...It is been around for 2000 years and they have done good for many people down through the ages. It is the Pope who helped Reagan end the cold war and brought down the iron curtain. No one is forcing a religion on anybody here. We have freedom of religion which is unique among many other countries. We are also tolerant and have compassion. Christians believe that we are all sinners and by the grace of God, we are saved.

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      Mackenzie Sage Wright 8 months ago

      Jacklee, you're missing the point. No, I do not think most modern day average Christians are equivalent to ISIS terrorists. Obviously, and that's not even what I said. I said imposing a theocracy sounds like what ISIS is trying to do.

      History shows that religious people, even with good intentions, can become corrupt, and go to any variety of extremist behavior. Christianity has been no exception. You seem to think good things in the world progressed because of Christianity. Sometimes, perhaps; sometimes, in spite of Christianity (Inquisitions, witch trials, Catholic/Protestant culture clashes, condoning slavery, oppression of homosexuals, women, etc.). Please, let's be realistic and not pretend that Christians are without corruption. Let's not pretend Christians have never abused their power or their majority in history. Let's not pretend that there aren't a lot of Christian hate groups in America right now that wouldn't love to see the rights of minority religions and those with lifestyles they don't agree with get trampled. Because it's hard to take you seriously when you try to lecture me on studying history and politics, but attempt to white-wash 2,000 years of Christianity.

      I believe America became great because Christians in this nation were limited*** in their ability to oppress others and trample their rights, by the Constitution... not because all Christians have always been such wonderful people only promoting was was truly best for society. Christians are responsible for both good things and bad things.

      Of course there are still many problems, and new problems that arise as times change. Just as there were problems in all-Christian theocracies when everyone was Christian. There is nothing about Christianity that looks to me like the answer to our country's problems. No pun intended, but Christianity in no way, shape or form looks like man's 'salvation' to me.

      If you look around, you might find there are also a lot of tolerant and compassionate people in other religions too. Christianity does not monopolize good virtues, by the way.

      Yes, we have freedom of religion, I agree-- so what exactly are you complaining about? That you're not more free than I am, but think you deserve to be? That's exactly what you're starting to sound like-- as if by virtue of being Christian you believe Christians deserve certain entitlements and privileges, but you'd rather call them 'rights' because it doesn't make it sound so much like inequality. Have YOU read Animal Farm? Because your argument is starting to sound like “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

      You say no one is forcing religion on anyone here-- good! Then what exactly is your beef?

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      Jack Lee 8 months ago from Yorktown NY

      Your sounding more incensed and I'm not trying to pick a fight. I agree some in the name of Christianity has done some bad things in the past. Every group have done so including native Americans to other tribes. It is human nature to conquer and rule by force... What is unique about our nation is that we dosn't do that. After each war, we left the country we faught and defeated and helped them rebuild. Who is imposing a theocracy? I never supported that. You are putting your bias against Christians and implying certain things that are false and that is my beef. I have read Animal Farm and have recommend it to millenials to show how socialism does not work.

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