Where Does Fiction End and Fantasy Begin?

Mm, yes, this really is a tough one. When pushing a book it could be crucial...knowing what heading it should be under! Thanks for that food for thought!

I prefer fiction over non-fiction when I read for pleasure. My mother's the opposite. I guess she's much like Brad in that respect.

This week's Guide to Literary Agents' newsletter addresses the subject of genre, as defined by literary agents. If anyone's interested, here's the link: http://writersinthestormblog.com/2015/03/book-genr...

These days there are so many sub-genres, it's hard to tell where a fiction novel fits. Can a novel be marketed in more than one genre?

Awesome article and I will tweet it. This is really, really important stuff for commercial writers. We've got to know our genre. We've also got to know where our genre overlaps with others so we can sell our work to multiple audiences AND we have to be able to make a case for how it fits into each.

On the fiction/fantasy thing. I think of fiction as life-like and fantasy as dream-like.

As for fantasy v fiction, I would say that fantasy covers things we wouldn't be able to do or see in our real world but fiction covers what could happen in our world (even if it's illegal or immoral).

Your other categories (thriller, suspense, mystery), to my mind, would include a predominance of one above the others - too simplistic? Probably!

Great discussion of the question which makes us think carefully about what we produce or wish to produce.

Have a great Friday and a great weekend, bill!

Ann :)

Very interesting question...and I don't have an answer either, but I do have an observation. My oldest son is an avid reader, loves fantasy and dystopian novels. My youngest son, on the other hand, doesn't want to have anything to do with fantasy. He says he prefers "realistic fiction". I don't know if that is an official genre category, but if it is--then I think that Brad would be a fan!

Awesome hub narrating the features and qualities of fiction and fantasy genres of writing. Both seem to be related to each other as both of them involve imagination and creation of characters and incidents from writer's creativity.

Voted up and awesome.

A good fantasy story doesn't just contain unreal elements. It must contain a logically consistent world. it must answer the question "what if the world was like this?" Plus there has to be a good story with good characters and a good plot. It can not just be about the fantastical elements, the themes must relate to our real lives.

I think the definition is somewhat in the eyes of the beholder. I know how I define these terms, but others might be different,

It's difficult for me to differentiate between fiction and fantasy. I guess fiction is a story written in the mind while fantasy is make-believe, which is the same thing!! I'm confusing myself. If you understand this comment I'd be surprised. lol

Very important issues for all fiction writers. And, need to be reconsidered regularly. Thanks for the the great discussion! ;-)

Hee......................

Bill, I know it is late for me, but have been working on a deadline all day and just wanted to pop in before I take a break for tonight. Love that you said that you just don't have an answer, because sometimes we just don't have an answer for this and more. Have a great rest of you day and a wonderful weekend, too! ;)

Hi dear friend Billy Buc:

This is an excellent 'ponder' hub!

I have always thought that fiction contains made-up characters in situations that COULD happen in real life. The movie-goer that I am, many of the fiction movies are 'based on true life events.' I also suspect that many authors of fiction include stories of circumstances they have personally experienced (although kept from the reader).

Although I consider fantasy books to be in the category of Cinderella, Snow White, and movies such as Guardians Of The Galaxy and The Avengers series (I LOVE Avenger movies) I couldn't help but notice that mpropp mentioned her son loved fantasy and dystopian novels (dystopian meaning an imaginary society where people often live dehumanized and fearful lives). Since I practically LIVE at Barnes & Noble I have noticed an increase of dystopian novels. I am personally hooked on the Divergent series: Divergent, Insurgent and Allegiant. Insurgent is playing at theatres right now. (I have seen both movies and Allegiant comes out next March) The excellent author, Veronica Roth, writes in the first person and her story is riveting.

All this being said, I would personally categorize Shadows Kill as a thriller. I LOVE that you are writing this series in the first person, and I love Eli's character. I see this book as a thriller because, for the most part, I was on the edge of my seat, throughout the whole book.

This is just a thought: Whatever genre you pick when you introduce your book to an agent in your query letter, mention the category you think it falls under, for example, 'thriller.' I would suspect that whoever reads your novel and is eager to represent you, could or might say to you, "I love the book but I suggest you categorize it as 'suspense.'

But since you only can pick one, just start with one.

NOT telling you want to do! It is just a thought, but I feel in my heart that whoever you send your manuscript to, will not just be able to read the first page, they will continue on and on. I know I did.

God bless, Sparklea :)

Thanks for this. I just recently learned how VERY important it is to classify your novel correctly with a webinar. I thought mine was romance, but it's not. It's women's fiction. It has romance IN it, but it is not the main story arc.

Friend Bill, I am a very avid reader of fantasy, which has become its own genre. Fiction is the figment of someone’s imagination, but it can overlap with fact, as in historical fiction or even biographical fiction. There are many kinds of fiction, including, but not limited to, mysteries, thrillers, action adventure, science fiction, and good ole every day stories. Fantasy is the figment of someone’s imagination, but it is other-worldly. It brings in the esoteric, good or evil. Today’s fantasy is a spinoff from science fiction, which usually contains more technology than mind over matter. It can be totally other-worldly or it can be incorporated into a fiction story. In other words, these genres can overlap, and thus lead to confusion.

I think people misuse the word “fantasize”. Children may tell an untruth, and their parents accuse them of fantasizing, when the word should be “fabricating”, although a child’s imaginary friend would be “fantasizing”. I have never watched “Blacklist” so I could not say whether it contained fantasy. Good examples of fantasies include “Dominion” and “Legion” for adults and “The Little Mermaid”, “Beauty and the Beast” for children, and Harry Potter for all the above. Hope this helps because fantasy is near and dear to me heart.

Interesting question and hub. Fiction could be but isn't real. Fantasy isn't and couldn't be real, as viewed within the realms of our society's understanding of reality. Maybe? :)

Interesting question Bill. Enjoyed the discussion. Never really thought about but I can certainly see now how fiction and fantasy cross paths. Have a great weekend.

First, I have to say that I was halfway through the TED Talk before I realized he was not talking about Elvis. I thought they had finally found him, alive and well, singing in some dive bar down in Key West. Greatly

disappointed!

Next, I feel the need to defend "The Blacklist" simply because James Spader can do no wrong. Anyone should have learned that from watching "Boston Legal" which aired from '04 to '08. Repeat after me;

James Spader can do NO wrong.

My husband was highly trained in his career. Nothing turns him away faster from a movie or TV show than to have the basics wrongly presented. On that same note, I find it hard to believe that this same man can watch re-runs of Green Acres and laugh his ass off at Arnold the Pig, the 'son' of Fred and Doris Ziffel.

Brad presented a very good question, but I don't see where that had anything to do with Elvis or Arnold the Pig. Really, Bill?

You should not mislead your readers. :-)

And, she's back..........

DJ.

Hello Bill.

They appears to me without distinctive line between an end or beginning. Both of them germinate at actual existing objectivity. The one takes direction closer following real dream's potentiality helping readers to fly occasionally touching surface below; the other exceeding a dream's capability of being true, yet cleverly implementing author's imagination takes readers soaring short distance maintaining sense of reality .

Unimaginable haw effective is your help spreading my wings ; (stupefying) I will be back ...

Voted up and interesting.

Have blessed weekend my friend.

Going by my experience as an English student, librarian, and antiquarian bookseller, my understanding is that all in classifying prose stories, all fantasy is fiction and some fiction is fantasy. Fantasy as a contemporary book marketing genre is another matter. Works that I would shelve as fantasy -- ALICE IN WONDERLAND, GULLIVER'S TRAVELS, WIND IN THE WILLOWS, LE MORTE D'ARTHUR, DANDELION WINE, THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO, etc., given a realistic fiction or fantasy fiction option, mostly would not fit into the fantasy genre, I don't think. And then there is magic realism.

Something interesting about realism is that sometimes readers accept as real something conceived in a writer's fantasy and reject as implausible historical truth. My brother John discovered that when writing his civil war books and miniseries. Garp's insight re "the world according to" is magnified when comparing how reality is viewed in different historical periods. So, in both fiction and theater, for achieving realism, what counts is the illusion of reality, not whether what is described or shown is really real. What counts in fantasy is a consistent "reality" within that fantasy universe.

Some of the most unbelievable things that occur are, in fact, real. A there certainly is a blending.

This is certainly confusing - I'm not much into fantasy genre although I recently read, Alice in Wonderland and pondered on the caterpillar smoking his hookah and advising Alice to munch mushrooms, clearly halluciogenic, sorry of topic slightly.

I'm thinking of fantasy as beyond reality, fiction as believable even though it stretches boundaries. Clearly, I have no idea.

I also have problems with memoir and fiction - my attempt at memoir was boring so I elaborated and invented things. I suppose now it's fiction but on the whole it is fact, non fiction. I think you covered this in one of your mail bags. Some short stories I adapted from this did ok but only as memoir - albeit a lying one.

I leave you totally confused and will now eat all the chocolate I had banned.

Well, Genres are financial tools, and would be geared to suit the market. Only last night I had an interpretation of the romantic poet vs the classical poet. This was more inclusive, and yet different from the one I had on Tuesday night.

So they are all financial base. Some say that if you can imagine something, then it ultimately lies within the realm of possibility. Still, you will know that this won't put the money in your pocket. He he. I'm like you, Bill.

Well you say this hub is about writing? Seems to me as I float through my day that I stumble upon both genres both in myself and in others. If we could answer this question in the reality of our lives then maybe we could determine it in the world of writing.

Wow. These three comments, ( B. Leekly, Flourish Anyway, travmay,) following Michael Milec's in essence are in agreement with his.

As Ericdierker says ' if we could answer this questionin the reality of our lives then maybe we could determine it in the world of writing."

Bill - It is interesting that James Lee Burke is one of your favorite authors. Thanks to another hubber, I recently started reading his books and have to agree with you. His writing style is one to be truly admired and he is a master of the art.

One of my novels was once rejected because it was too real - reality experienced by fictive characters.

And here I am writing the very same thing again. Real life, real issues, real challenges, and only the characters are fictive, representing real people.

So, what am I writing - a fictive biography?

I think we should write what we want to write. Let the reader choose whatever they want to read. Personally I prefer biographies and historical novels. Like Leon Urus' novels about Israel, Palestine, Ireland, etc. And what about Shindler's List?

So, I guess it is okay to write the truth when it belongs to the past, but not when it belongs to the present?

Back to my suggestion - let the reader read what they want to read, and let the writer write what they want to write.

Thought-provoking hub!

I never thought a lot about the difference between fiction and fantasy, but I always felt they had the fine line you write about, here, and yet it blurs. What a great topic to discuss. I think a lot of us are like Brad. Some of us are hard to please because we're too stuck in reality. It's why I haven't been able to write fiction, without a pressing college class deadline, in years! I admire your ability to continue writing fiction!

This is an interesting hub and analysis, Bill. Whenever I write fiction, it always turns into fantasy. Fantasy for me is something that is very different from our experience of life and is highly unlikely to ever happen. I don't consider the possibility to be zero, though, considering our lack of understanding of the nature of reality.

Bill enjoyed your hub as always. I have always taken the stance that life is actually stranger than fiction. When I wrote my memoir about my fight to win over my medical and emotional issue a great many people didn't actually believe it to be fact yet every word was just that. When I wrote the 4 part Rubies Saga now soon to completed one reviewer told me book one contained things that were too far fetched to have happened yet that first book in the series is actually based 80% complete truth.

I then determined that fiction is somewhat based on facts but embellished to create a compelling story but when reference is made to historical places or events the book be accurate to prevent being caterized as fantasy. For example when writing Rubies with a Duluth Minnesota location I had to be very careful that the saga taking place in the 50's and the saga continuing into the 90's that the historical facts matched Duluth in each of those respective time slots. This made the fictional story seem real. If I had described Betty's Pies as it is today in a story placed in 1970 it would have been complete fantasy and noted as such from any reader..

Well I've rambled on long enough so I'll end it here. When a fiction story is so well written that it becomes reality in the reader's mind then it is exceptional fiction whether it is based upon real people. Enjoy.

Book genres are a real issue when it comes to filling in ebook and book forms before uploading the files. Under fiction you have romance,historical,teen-fiction crime fiction....and so on. The same applies to the Fantasy genres. Then you have biographies and historical novels, science-fiction and medical fictional drama's. All made up by the author, but based on research or and personal experiences.

My novels fall under visionary fiction, a very unknown genre, but I feel that often fiction can be more true that fact. I like to read adventure or a good science fiction drama, but now and then a good crime story can also be enjoyable. Nice hub.

This is interesting. I have to admit that in all of my life I have never contemplated the difference between fiction or fantasy. I now know there is a difference and can see how important it is for classification. I know a lot of the CSI-type shows are fiction, but parts of the show are clearly fantasy, especially some of the solutions they use to solve crimes.

Well, Bill, it just depends on whether you are talking about fantacizing about something you wish might happen but you know it won't, like a date with Jennifer Anniston. That is a perfectly good use of the word as defined in the English language. One of my fantasies came true, I met and shook hands with a real astronaut. But I thought we were talking about the GENRE of fantasy. My fantasy of meeting an astronaut certainly would not meet the definition of fantasy in genre. That is different, and perhaps writers need to read up on the different genre's before they speculate, especially if they are going to go pro. Parts of CSI may be imagination, but they are not of the fantasy genre. I think people are getting these mixed up. Just trying to be helpful.

Bill

When I saw the question the other day I knew I'd have to look up the hub it was going to come up in. Why? I'm a fan of shows like "The Blacklist" for the simple reason that Brad is right it does seem like it's written by a College frat party!

James Spader's character comes over as amoral, but at times I think there's a glimpse of a moral compass (though severely damaged) I love the escapism of the show.

For me there are at least two types of fiction. The ones where reality is suspended (and how good it is rests solely on the writer) and those who take a real event and ask the question "What if"

To me a classic writer in this area is Frederick Forsyth. His books are all based on stuff that was happening at the time asks the question "What if"

A classic on this was his 1991 book called "Fist of God" That took the invasion of Kuwait and Saddam's quest for Nuclear technology and asked "what would happen if he actually developed the Bomb?"

What makes good fiction to me isn't whether its real so much as how well written is the story?

I suppose it is really. But fantasy tends to be where we leave reality behind and venture forward

Personally I don't mind a smooth, seamless blend of fantasy with otherwise hard fiction. My favorite writer John Steinbeck was fond of doing this in several of his more whimsical novels, such as Cannery Row, my personal favorite. In this book a gopher was one of the characters, and there was some kind of strange apparition of an ancient Chinese man that would walk into and out of the sea on occasion, without explanation. Perhaps because I'm kind of a wingnut myself, I don't mind mixing in strange scenarios like this on occasion, but they must conform to certain rules and not be completely anachronistic. Great hub, and great food for thought.

Your article whetted my appetite to know more about the difference. I like the article on differencebetween.net (Difference Between Fiction and Fantasy). You illustrate some of the points they make. Thanks for the lesson.

Intriguing title, Bill, and subject. When a story or script is dependent on realism and too often departs from everyday life, the strain on credibility can flatten the entire story. But what is fiction versus fantasy? It’s an interesting question. I don’t watch a lot of television (too much junk) because we are asked to “suspend our credibility” far too often. Then, we become insulted as we ask ourselves if the creators assume all of their viewers have double-digit IQ’s. But this issue is at the far end of the spectrum. An excellent novel may find itself in the midst of trying to define itself, although I think your superb writing is fiction – not fantasy. Then again, more genre labels abound as you have pointed out: Is it a mystery or a thriller? In any event, as long as it is well-written, I’m there. :-)

There can be a very fine line between fantasy and fiction. Of course if it is blatantly unreal, that is another story, but there are many odd things that DO happen. It is up to the individual to decide.

I'm just very glad I don't have to make that decision with the things I write about! Interesting question.....