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Palestinian Militants Fired the First Rockets and Started the Latest Combat in the Gaza Strip.

Updated on July 17, 2014

In the USA over 1,000 people are murdered each month.

(CAUTION: this article uses the word stupid -- the reason is that it was the word used by Hamas in the beginning of this latest problem)

In about a month about 200 people have died in violence in Gaza and Israel. And yet in the United States no one is lobbing bombs back and forth across a border. And yet no one is "world wide" protesting the American deaths.

Some kind of militants in Gaza began the whole current war over police action they did not like. What are they "stupid"? I used that word because that is the word Hamas used to explain accusations that they kidnapped Israeli citizens.

Israel has lost 28 people in ten years as a result of rocket attacks from Gaza. Hamas must be real stupid. And again I use that word because Hamas uses it.

Israel is ready to invade Gaza using ground forces. Hamas must be real stupid. Hamas uses human shields and then cries foul when those "shields" die. Israel warns civilians to evacuate military targets but instead Palestinians race to die martyrs deaths. Hamas may not be stupid but they are crazy. The New York times criticizes Israel for warning civilians. They may have a point but the wrong conclusion.

There are over 1.2 million people living in Gaza. There are just 8 million people in all of Israel, plus a million foreigners. Yet their ready reserve and military equals about the population of Gaza.

If we had even more policing conflict with Mexico so they decided to lob Rockets at San Diego I do not think we would hesitate to invade and conquer. I do not think anyone would complain except then what would we do with it? (mouse that roared?)

I do not think Israel wants any part of Gaza -- what would they do with it? Why would Israel start a war with Gaza?? Why would Gaza start a war with Israel?

Again I say Hamas is stupid. And I thank them for coining that word related to this whole conflagration.

Do not blame this guy!!!

Part of the reason this whole area is called the Holy land is because of Jesus Christ. But Christians never really did well here and have pretty much halted all hostilities in His name.
Part of the reason this whole area is called the Holy land is because of Jesus Christ. But Christians never really did well here and have pretty much halted all hostilities in His name. | Source

Them there missiles are made by someone? And then sold to someone? Babies die for profit?

There is absolutely no basis for what Hamas is doing with the Rockets.

Just angry children trying to kill their neighbor? Sport? Defense? Suicide by retaliation? Martyrdom? What in the heck are they doing? From all reports Gaza cannot run their own little area, what are they trying to do? NO! What in the hell are they trying to do?

A cease fire? That is silliness. Hamas has to stop and then Israel will stop. They are no match and they are not even united. They are a gang of idiots.

Now in all fairness I understand that there are charities affiliated with Hamas. And they do some good work. But they are all "shut up" and say nothing right now. They do not stand for anything and so they will fall for everything. Who would give to these charities? What idiots would give their money to the suicidal lunatics lobbing missiles that do little harm at Israel. How bizarre!

There is a man outside my grocery store and he asks me to donate to Hamas charities. I do not think so.

This word just in: There have been reports that Hamas is moving children into buildings when they know they are going to be hit by Israeli missiles. This apparently has been confirmed.

Peace?

Let seasons come and go.

Trying to make winter into spring is a fools errand.
Trying to make winter into spring is a fools errand. | Source

Hamas and missiles

Hamas has fired nearly 1,000 missiles at Israel. The cost is a remarkably low, $1,000 per missile. Israel picks which missiles to shoot down with their defensive missiles. They do not shoot down all of them. Only ones headed toward populated areas. Those defensive missiles cost about $60,000 dollars a piece. They work very well as is evident from the lack of damage the Hamas missiles cause.

That is just crazy to think about missiles that way but it is part of the tangible cost. Now one thousand thousand dollars used for Hamas charities would be fantastic. One thousand one thousand dollars spent on missiles is stupid as all they are is sand in the face of a tiger. This conflict is just plain stupid.

What can Israel do to end it? They certainly cannot stop defending themselves. However Hamas can stop and if they do Israel will stop.

But for some stinking reason pressure is on Israel. And that is just plain stupid.

Now we find out that Hamas is moving civilians into areas about to be attacked by Israel instead of moving them out of the area. This is and evil and very vile action. We must support human rights investigations into this activity.

You cannot blame this on Buddha

Just thought we should make it clear that Buddha has nothing to do with this conflict.
Just thought we should make it clear that Buddha has nothing to do with this conflict. | Source

Do not be stupid and copy and reprint this article.

This article was written by Eric Dierker. I reserve all rights to this article and desire no duplication without attribution. On the other hand feel free to share the content just let folks know where it came from. Copying it and claiming it as your own would be stupid and subject you to my legal harassment of you. Besides if someone asked you what it meant you would not know so yes it is copyright protected as original work by me. Just leave a comment to ask to use it elsewhere and please share it.

To read more by this fascinating author visit www.thedierkerblog.com, Eric Dierker on Facebook and Pinterest and my sweet blog resipsaloquitor on google blogs

Just yesterday morning

Hamas rejected a cease fire proposal by Egypt that Israel accepted. The main reason was that Hamas did not think the manner of the proposal was respectful enough toward them. People we are talking about lunatics here. Very sick individuals with suicidal and homicidal tendencies. The Palestinians need to shuck off or change the leadership of Hamas and they need to do it now. Hamas is not Palestine's friend at all.

And a last note. This is not about Muslim verses Jew. This is about egomaniacs and lunatics. Lest anyone think we forget that really bad police action on behalf of Israel help set the stage for this problem know that we don't. But there is no way you send off missiles to seek redress for bad police action. That is only the result of skewed and demented minds.

Just today: The U.S. House of Representatives unanimously approved a non-binding resolution in support of Israel’s right to defend itself against rocket fire from the Gaza Strip

Read more: http://www.jta.org/2014/07/11/news-opinion/politics/house-unanimously-voices-support-for-israel-in-current-hamas-fight#ixzz37kcAeJYK

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    • billybuc profile image

      Bill Holland 2 years ago from Olympia, WA

      There are some conflicts in the world that may never be resolved peacefully. This might be one of them....and that's sad.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Bill I think it used to be a conflict with purpose and real beliefs involved. I think that conflict is resolving but certain factions just want to keep on warring. Very sad indeed.

    • profile image

      retief2000 2 years ago

      I am certain that, as part of our severely flawed and fallen nature, violence is often the means by which some human conflicts must be resolved.

      I do not say this with any sense of delight, but, rather, with a sense of sadness at necessity.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      retief2000 the big old problem here is that the Hamas side has not upside. They harm themselves and Israel. They are not doing one thing of note except causing problems. If they were fighting for land of freedom -- OK I get that. But these guys are just closing their eyes and shooting missiles at civilians -- it is bizarre!

    • profile image

      retief2000 2 years ago

      Eric, my brother, Palestinians are intensely harmed because they will not make peace with Israel. The most prosperous and freest Muslims, not part of an oil/royal family, are in Israel. The hatred of Jews and Christians has blinded them from this obvious fact.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Truth

    • MG Singh profile image

      MG Singh 2 years ago from Singapore

      There is no doubt that Hamas and its ilk will not let the Israeli state exist. The only option is to wipe out Hamas. It should not be forgotten that Israel was created by a UN mandate. Nice post

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Thank you MG Singh. I reckon that if it were the creation of say--- 1948 then perhaps Hamas would not hate them so much. But probably the creation of about 1,000 BC is what really pisses them off. LoL

      It sure seems to me that Hamas are just terrorists with a claim of land rights.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Thought you might like to read the following: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39...

      It might help to clarify who exactly is getting killed right now.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

    • James-wolve profile image

      Tijani Achamlal 2 years ago from Morocco

      Israel is att..a.cking Gaza because it wants to weaken the unitary government of Hamas and al fatah. Israel knows that this unity between the two Palestinian groups means greater chance of Palestine becoming a state and of course Israel doesn't want that. The very core of Zio.nism is destruction of Palestine. Israel does not want peace because peace means going against Zi.onism. People have to understand that and we have let the world know that. Israel has no interest in peace but to expand its borders.

      Hamas is not stupid. Hamas had to defend itself. Now you hear Israel and the US say "Israel has the right to defend itself". Well what about Hamas? What about Palestinians? They have no right to defend themselves from Unci..vili..zed Israelis? No one wants to be a sitting duck and a coward so they fi.re rockets. It is a homegrown, homemade self defense, not the advanced arsenal and weapons Israel has. It is like we are watching" Avatar " ( which I think was the real intention of James Cameron of producing that movie) ..Passion of Christ(suffering of Palestinians).

      Hamas doesn't use human shield.Check Shujai'iya neighbourhood in Google and what Norwegian surgeon ,Mad Gilbert ,who volunteered in one of Gaza hospital says? As the Quakers say: "Speak Truth to Power".

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      CJ this was an interesting article and argument. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39... It really makes one wonder why the Palestinians put up with Hamas -- to what purpose. They are not even helping the casualties??? Incredible. I bet Israel helps their injured.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      The link didn't work.

      No matter how evil Hamas may be, does that justify the on going onslaught against civilians, against women and children and old people? Even if Hamas fired the first rockets - which they didn't - how can anyone justify the degree of murder and mayhem that has followed? Whoever killed those Israeli teenagers - and we only have the Israeli's word for it that it was Hamas - does the murder of several hundred more innocent people make things any better? Hamas represents the inevitable outcome of keeping people caged up in those inhuman conditions. The word itself - "Hamas" - in Arabic means Zeal, or concentrated anger. Theirs is the anger of a people deprived of justice or hope, the anger of the caged beast, taunted one too many times. How different this is to the calculated violence of the Israeli army with their sophisticated weaponry, or of the politicians who direct them with such calm indifference.

      You need to read more of what is really going on, as opposed to what your government tells you is going on.

      The American people are subsidising this slaughter with your tax dollars. Your government can spend money on arming the Israelis while it cannot find money for your healthcare or the unemployed in your urban wastelands.

      http://972mag.com/palestinian-human-rights-leader-...

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

    • profile image

      retief2000 2 years ago

      No more is required than a thought experiment. If the Palestinians unilaterally disarmed there would be peace with Israel. If Israel unilaterally disarmed blood would run in the streets of what was once Israel. Israeli Muslims are the most prosperous Muslims not of a royal or oil family. Palestinians destroyed all infrastructure built up by Israel in the territory they, foolishly, ceded back to the Palestinians in the last worthless set of peace accords.

      If the Israelis want peace, then they will need to break the will of Palestinians to fight. Peace comes from violence, despite all notions to the opposite. If Muslims were interested in peace with non- Muslims why is every Muslim majority country a hot bed of Jihad.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      CJ your bent and radical refusal to even acknowledge that Hamas fired the first missiles is admirable and I am sure respected in the Hamas world. Why does Hamas not treat the wounded???

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      retief2000 what you speak is the truth. CJ cannot accept that for the rant would be lost.

    • James-wolve profile image

      Tijani Achamlal 2 years ago from Morocco

      retief2000,

      "Violence never brings permanent peace. . Violence is impractical because it is a descending spiral ending in destruction for all. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding: it seeks to annihilate rather than convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love. " Martin Luther King

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Violence and gratuitous swearing go hand in hand. A sign of illiteracy in both words and peace. When we learn love and tolerance we begin to unlearn violence, when that is done we are ready to coexist. Frustration is the mother's milk of violence. We must hear each voice to dilute the fear.

      ed

    • James-wolve profile image

      Tijani Achamlal 2 years ago from Morocco

      Simply Gaza is not a state.No army,no sovereignty ,no international protection.It is concentration camp and Hamas is a pocket of resistance .If they get onto the open ,they will easily get targ..eted by Jets and they are not stupid.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Sad and true.

    • James-wolve profile image

      Tijani Achamlal 2 years ago from Morocco

      Have you read the book by Ilan Pappe,an Israeli historian and socialist activist, called Ethnic cleansing of Palestine? if not you can check his lectures in YouTube.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Sorry James but that guy is an intellectual bore who spends more time on himself than facts. But I do note he is given the freedom to do his stuff and speak his mind, which you cannot do under Hamas.

    • James-wolve profile image

      Tijani Achamlal 2 years ago from Morocco

      And there are many others.All of them spend time on themselves?? Who said" ..you can not under Hamas"? If what you say is true,it is now golden opportunity for Gazians to revolt against Hamas since they are underground,but the information on the ground says the opposite: they are backed by Gaza as well as by West Bank itself.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      A totally losing group of terrorists is what what Gaza rallies behind.

      1948 is dead and gone Pappaa does not get that. Palestinians want peace and Hamas wants war.

      Where are the medics and health workers from Hamas???? Come on I keep asking ---- why are there no Hamas Hospitals but plenty of warheads --- come on,,, it is clear.

    • James-wolve profile image

      Tijani Achamlal 2 years ago from Morocco

      So as to be easy taken on the riflescope??Besides,what should they do in hospitals which suffer from a lack of dozens of categories of important medicine and medical supplies, which have completely run out in storehouses,the severe shortage of fuel imports needed to operate ambulances to transport the injured to hospitals and to operate power generators?

      Peace in your diction means humiliation to Gaza and whole regions of Palestine .The only palestinian who wants peace is Abbas.This explains clearly why he doesnt want to sign Rome Statute and go to International Criminal Court over Israel mas...sa..cre they commited today in east Gaza.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      As I said, even if Hamas fired the first rockets, would that justify the slaughter of innocents? If you want to consider my thoughts as "rants" then so be it. I can see your mind is already locked.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      "You take my water, burn my olive trees,

      Destroy my house, take my job, steal my land,

      Imprison my father, kill my mother,

      Bombard my country, starve us all,

      Humiliate us all, but I am to blame:

      I shot a rocket back."

      http://stopwar.org.uk/poetry/an-old-man-and-a-youn...

    • Ericdierker profile image
      Author

      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      CJ and James, my mind is not locked and I am learning much from the two of you. I appreciate your making this hub much better and broader in scope. However I become even more convinced that Hamas is out for vengeance and out of hate. The worse you make the Hamas plight the more they are to blame for it by focusing on vengeance and retribution and their own pride. What you point out makes it more clear, they are more focused on hurting Israel than on helping themselves.

    • James-wolve profile image

      Tijani Achamlal 2 years ago from Morocco

      Palestinians are perfectly entitled to resist the robbery of their homeland by any means they deem necessary, including, but never limited to, Hamas.For example, A film by Annemarie Jacir, an art installation by Emily Jacir, a poem by Rafeef Ziadah or Dana Dajani, or a moving song by Rim Banna is infinitely more radical than any flimsy rocket that Hamas might fire. The Israeli propaganda machinery does not want the world to know these radically defiant forms of Palestinian resistance that have grabbed Zionism by the throat for generations and do not allow it to swallow Palestine. But they magnify Hamas as the face of Palestine.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      You might be interested to discover that Hamas was originally encouraged by Israel as a counter to the PLO. What they represent is one particular reaction to the ongoing Israeli oppression, and a convenient excuse for Israel to go on punishing the Palestinian people. The truth is that the Israelis don't want peace. They have staked their claim on historic Israel at the expense of the indigenous people and no matter how many compromises the Palestinians make, they not be satisfied until they have driven them into the sea. The very claim they make about Hamas is true of them. It wasn't Hamas who broke the cease fire, it was Israel. They started breaking the cease fire after the last conflict within days of it being signed. Everyone knows about the three Israeli kids who were killed, but an average of one Palestinian child has died every three days for the last thirteen years. Who remembers them? https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east...

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Gaza is really close to being in a civil war all by themselves. Backing Hamas remains stupid.

    • profile image

      retief2000 2 years ago

      There is no permanent peace. Violence does bring peace. If you doubt the durability of that peace ask what the Germans, Japanese and Italians think. After brutal and extreme violence the Italians, Japanese and Germans were treated with dignity. The result has been 69 years of peace.

      Martin Luther King may be right about violence within a society against a specific class of people. He is wrong about violence between nations.

      The Palestinians have magnified Hamas as their face by electing Hamas to positions of power. There cannot be peace with Islam, even for those in the West foolish enough to believe that it is possible.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Well if Hamas was in control of Baja California and lobbed missiles into San Diego and Los Angeles counties I think we would not be caring too much about several hundred civilian casualties as we conquered that peninsula.

      And I even think that if that was the scenario, Mexico would not do a lot to stop us. Of course what we would do next is try to give it back to Mexico sans Hamas. As it is the cartels just lob drugs and human trafficking at us :-(

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      What you are doing here Eric is parroting Israeli propaganda. That's exactly what they say.

      You are blaming the victims. Everyone talks about Israel's right to defend itself. What about the Palestinians right to defend themselves? You fixate on Hamas, but Hamas are the symptom, not the cause. Before Hamas was the PLO. Most of the people in Gaza are refugees from the original theft of Palestinian land in 1948, called by Palestinians the Nakba, meaning the catastrophe.. The rockets they lob are into the territories where once they lived. The Israelis talk of the Jewish right of return based on myths going back two thousand years and more, but the Palestinians have no right of return despite the fact that they often have the keys and the deeds to the very houses where they once lived.

      The situation is that when there is peace, the Israelis build settlements and continue to steal Palestinian land. They have burned and uprooted 800,000 ancient olive trees in the last ten years, cut off water supplies and walled off Palestinian enclaves so that families are divided, but when Palestinians fight back, they are called terrorists and collectively punished for the act. They can't win. Israel acts with impunity because it has the backing of the United States, who provides it with arms and money. That's your tax dollars. More money goes to Israel in foreign aid than to the whole of Africa. Think about that. Israel couldn't survive for a single day without your money.

      As for the previous comment, that is self-contradictory. You say that violence brings peace, but then talk of dignity. Where is the dignity for the Palestinians? The difference is that the Germans, Japanese and Italians were nations with armies and resources. The people of Gaza have no army, no air force, no navy, no air raid shelters, no sirens, no place to run. They are an imprisoned people living in the largest open air prison in the world. It's like the Warsaw ghetto in there and the Israelis treat the Palestinians as the Nazis once treated the Jews. Real Jews support the Palestinian right to resistance. Read Noam Chomsky or Norman Finklestein, or this, testimony from a survivor of the Warsaw ghetto, who, like the Palestinians, rose up to fight. They too were called "terrorists":

      http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/04/09/last-...

    • profile image

      retief2000 2 years ago

      In 1948 Muslims in the former Trans-Jordan were offered the opportunity to continue living exactly where they were. They found the idea of living in a state where Jews had political rights offensive. Not surprising, Muslims have trouble living in peace with infidels all around the world.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Nearly 800,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes. Whole villages were razed. Jews and Muslims had lived in peace in Palestine and throughout the Middle East for hundreds of years. The Iraqi Jewish population goes back to 2,000 BC. There were no pogroms against Jews in the Muslim world: that happened in Christian Europe. Jews still co-exist with Muslims in Iran. This has nothing to do with religion. It is about one group of people taking another people's land and the geo-politics of the Middle East, which is about who controls the oil. That's the bottom line.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      I have not read one piece of literature coming out of Israel. So I could not parrot them. You sound like you want to attack Israel. So be it.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      This is so clearly a "hate Israel at all costs" deal it is not funny. Justification after justification shot down.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Sounds a lot like "I hate you for what you did to my father". I should go back and demand my home back.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      You don't need to have read Israeli propaganda: your own media parrots it. What you are repeating is Western media bias which uses Israeli talking points as a substitute for actual journalism. The problem with Israel is that it is an apartheid state: that is there is one set of laws for Jews, and another for the people living under its occupation. It's not about "hate Israel at all costs": its about justice and equality under the law. Would you have said the same about apartheid South Africa?

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Our media these days is looking for any excuse to bash Israel. You must just watch one program. Your premise is old.

    • profile image

      retief2000 2 years ago

      Dhimitude, the Muslim peace.

    • James-wolve profile image

      Tijani Achamlal 2 years ago from Morocco

      Western media has repeatedly failed to cover the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a fair and balanced manner.CNN journalist Jake Tapper opened a recent interview with Human Rights Attorney Diana Buttu with the following two-part question: “Why is Hamas launching rockets into Israeli population centers and are any other Palestinians trying to stop them from doing so?”

      Tapper’s question which lays onus on Hamas and other Palestinians and ignores the enveloping context of Israel’s siege on Gaza is both telling and predictable and in one particularly nefarious example, Diane Sawyer of ABC showed a picture of Palestinians enduring Israeli bMbin but told her American audience these were the pictures of Israelis under at..ta..ck by Hamas rockets so Mainstream western media outlets are, by and large, infused with a pro-Israeli ideological bias that colors nearly all mainstream Western reporting on Israel-Palestine.

      Morever,Israel is assumed to be good, peaceful, and like ‘us’. The Palestinians, meanwhile, are the opposite of that. These are the assumptions that most western news outlets start with, and questions like Tapper’s follow naturally. One can easily imagine the media uproar if it were Hamas that struck a disabled center with a ro..ck..et, or destroyed churches or K.. 18 members of the same family, or four kids on a beach.If Tapper and other western journalists strove harder for the kind of realistic and balanced reporting they claim to pursue, they may, instead, be asking why Israel has blockaded Gaza for eight years and created what the United Nations’ John Holmes called “a large open-air prison” and British Prime Minister David Cameron called a “prison camp.”

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      So where did you get this line from Eric: "Well if Hamas was in control of Baja California and lobbed missiles into San Diego and Los Angeles counties I think we would not be caring too much about several hundred civilian casualties as we conquered that peninsula"?

      If you check out my hub https://hubpages.com/politics/Gaza-This-Is-Not-A-W... you'll find that this is exactly what the Israelis were saying in 2009 and which they are repeating now. Your president said it. He supports Israel's right to defend itself, which is what all the news outlets say too, all of them ignoring the ongoing incursions into Gaza over the last several years, the targeted assassinations, the theft of land, the provocation, the brutality, the violence of an illegal occupation. If the news outlets are starting to reflect the Palestinian view at last, it's because they can't ignore it any more now that social media is opening people up to other narratives than the Israeli one. The 2009 incursion killed 1400 Palestinians, over 300 of them children. This latest looks to be about to repeat that figure.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Yes so what is Hamas' point. Suicide by cop?

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      PS there are currently 214 Palestinian children in Israeli administrative detention (jail). Are they all members of Hamas? On average one Palestinian child dies at the hands of the Israelis every three days. Are they all members of Hamas? How many of the 500 or more of the current dead are members of Hamas? Do you agree with Ayelet Shaked—a Knesset member of the religious nationalist Jewish Home party - who said, “They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      My point is that when you brutalise a people they become brutal. That goes for the occupier and the occupied alike. The Israelis are killing their own humanity just as they are killing Palestinians. The Nazis taught us that lesson. Jews of all people should have learned it by now.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Hamas should have learned it by now. No matter how you give blame and rationale for their aggression Hamas started it this time around and are doing no good for anyone except martyrs

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      I agree mass media stinks. But I think most folk get that. And it really does not change facts.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      CJ I think that kind of rhetoric is in perfect harmony with Hamas. It is coming from you and not from the Israeli people.

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      I have a problem getting over this issue: hamas is a terrorist organization

      • The United States, along with Israel, Canada, Japan and

      the European Union has declared Hamas a foreign terrorist

      organization.

      Is it your suggestion that it is a big international conspiracy to label Hamas this in the eyes of the world?

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Ok, let's go over this again. The ongoing brutality of the occupation is a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly thing. On and on and on, day in, day out. Gaza is a walled ghetto. The Gazans do not control their borders, their coast, their airspace, their imports or exports. The Israelis only allow a limited amount in, even down to the amount of calories they allow to keep the population alive but barely functioning. In the West Bank Palestinians are subject to arbitrary arrest and detention.

      The laws that rule Palestinians, whether as Israeli citizens, or as people under occupation, are discriminatory and racist. Before the three Israeli teenagers were abducted and shot, two Palestinian teenagers had been killed by Israeli forces. This was in May. You can read about that here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/video... They were no threat.

      It is almost certain that the three Israelis were killed in retaliation, but we only have Israel's word for it that Hamas were the culprits. The Israelis knew that the boys were dead but pretended to the world that they could still be alive and used their supposed capture as a pretext to attack Hamas. That was the start of it. This happened before Hamas started firing rockets. The Israelis do this all the time. I detailed all of that from 2009 in my hub which I would ask you to read. It is all verifiable. They provoke, murder, attack, break the cease fire, then, when Hamas fires rockets say, "see we have the right to defend ourselves."

      Are Hamas right to fire rockets indiscriminately? No. It is a war crime. But it pales into insignificance compared to the degree of mayhem and violence that the Israelis are capable of with their high tech weaponry. You only have to look at a photograph of the kind of damage an Israeli missile does compared to a Hamas one.

      Now I'm not defending Hamas here. You're right. It is stupid to provoke the Israelis. But one side is weak and the other side is strong, militarily speaking, and just because you have bigger weapons that doesn't mean it is right for you to use them. I think you don't know just how inherently racist the Israelis are becoming - not Jews as a whole, just large segments of Israeli society. Many Jews throughout the world are just as appalled as I am at the criminal behaviour of the Zionist state and wish it would end. Many Jews, like Jews For Justice for Palestinians, are anti-Zionist too.

      It seems to me that you blame the victims in this conflict. It's like an abusive relationship. The abuser beats up his partner and then blames her for it. "It's your fault, you made me do it." That's what the Israelis are doing and it needs to be stopped, right now. The Palestinians can't stop it. They have no power. It is up to the Israelis to stop it, and it's up to people like you and me to look at the situation and to see where the real fault lies: with the abuser, not the abused.

      Now take a look at some pictures of dead Palestinian children. There are plenty of them all over the internet right now. If that was your child, wouldn't you go a little crazy? Wouldn't you want revenge? Wouldn't you want to lob a missile to kill the perpetrators of that heinous crime against your family and against humanity? 1500 dead Palestinian children since 2000. How many crazy fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, friends, grandparents does that make?

      And you wonder why they lob their stupid rockets over, even though it does them no good.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Hamas is a terrorist organisation because the EU and the US say it is. They also say that Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation and the Iran is trying to get nuclear weapons. But one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Ronald Reagan said that, while supporting the terrorist contras in Nicaragua. The US also supported Saddam Hussein while he was invading Iran, but then declared him a terrorist for invading Kuwait. The right to resistance against occupation is enshrined in international law. The French Resistance were called terrorists by the Nazis: and indeed they were. They did everything that Hamas does, including kidnappings, bombings, indiscriminate murder of collaborators, attacks against civilian infrastructure. This is normal under occupation. Not a good thing, but it is recognised that the occupied have the right to resist. Now try another one of those thought experiments. What if New York was occupied by the Iranians, say, or California? Would the people of those two states have the right to resist or not? And how far would they go to resist, and for how long? It is the occupation of Palestine which is the fault here, not the resistance to it.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      I guess you got to the bottom line on this. If it were my son dead I would want to get rid of Hamas.

      Here we also have teenagers dying in gang activity. It does not make me want to kill cops. It makes me want to kill gang members and drug users.

      Your "testimony" just does not carry the water.

      The purpose of the Israeli action is to prevent terror. Yes teenagers are used by Hamas. Israel is not inciting action to create terror. Hamas is and we are at war with terrorists. Now what brought Hamas to the conclusion that this is appropriate is just no longer an issue as long as they engage in terror. Aiming missiles at civilians with no military target attached is terror.

      You are supporting terrorist in your rhetoric. I really do not care why that is irrelevant.

      Here is from Al Jazeera: The ongoing Israeli offensive appeared to only strengthen the resolve of Ismail Haniyah, a senior Hamas leader, to continue fighting.

      "Dear blood was spilled today. These massacres, these [killings] against our Palestinian people cannot be overlooked," he said in a televised speech.

      "Today's resistance will have the final word, the final strike. Through faith, dignity, the resistance is supreme and the people and their will, will also be supreme.""

      What a recipe for disaster.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      I do not support terrorism, whether by Hamas, or by the Israeli state, I was merely pointing out that what you define as terrorism depends on what side you are on in any particular situation. You define the Israeli state as like cops getting rid of drug dealers. I think they are backed by the biggest drug dealers of the lot, the arms dealers, the dealers in death and destruction: the Masters of War as one of of your great poets called them. This is not meant to be an apology for Hamas, I was just trying to get you to see it from their point of view. Now here's a little story for you. Our country, the UK was actually targeted by terrorists back in the 70s, by the IRA, who were mostly funded by Irish ex pats in the USA. Some times they lobbed their bombs from the Irish republic. Did we smash Dublin or attack New York, killing women and children indiscriminately? Would that have been the answer do you think? When we did attack them, on Bloody Sunday, when British Marines killed a number of unarmed civilians, the queues to join the IRA went around the block. More people joined the IRA after Bloody Sunday than had joined in the previous 30 years. We tried all sorts of things, like forced detention in the H Blocks, and shoot to kill in Gibraltar, and all it did was to strengthen them. After that we began to talk to them. We engaged them in a peace process, and now look: the terrorists are politicians, and no one is bombing anyone else any more. And before you talk about the cease fire brokered by the Egyptians which Hamas ignored: Hamas weren't consulted. How can you have a cease fire when one of the parties is not consulted. The trick with the IRA is that we spoke to them and offered them genuine concessions. There is actually a cease fire offer on the table. Hamas have offered a ten year cease fire. Check this out if you don't believe me: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/report-israel-condit... Israel ignored that. Now who is breaking the cease fire?

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Hamas is out of hand and needs international support to get rid of them.

      http://www.algemeiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/...

      And yes we believe the photos as UN folks just found more rockets hidden in schools. These Hamas are just wrong.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      That is the region where the IDF has just slaughtered 67 civilians. So, yes, they were bound to find some evidence to justify the slaughter.

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/massacre-in-shujaiya-...

      And yes we believe the reports because Israel has attacked schools, hospitals, mosques, apartment blocks. These Israelis are just wrong.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Just thought I'd pass this on to you, in case you think it's just some weird leftie from the UK who is saying these outrageous things. This is the Jewish Voice for Peace, representing Jews throughout the world. They say much the same as me: http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      I got a lot of good information from the radical peace wings of Israel. I think they are awesome and should get more support. Haifa seems a hot bed for crazy notions of peaceful existence.

      I wish Hamas would embrace them. But Hamas is all about warring. Sad really. Looks like if they turned the hate into governance they could do just fine with a coalition with the PLO PLN and put this warring behind them and get major concessions for it.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      I agree with you, and there is a lot of work going on between the peace movement in Israel and Palestinian peace groups, but the blocks to peace don't only come from Hamas, they come from Tel Aviv, and from a whole society which has gone crazy with hatred. It's like Germany in the 30s over there with a govt stoking up the blood lust: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/fascists-occupation-...

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      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      An article which shows that Hamas didn't actually start this conflict: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/07/22/se...

      She gets her information from the Times of Israel, not a well-known pro-Palestinian paper.

      And here's a piece by a respected journalist on how the Israeli government used the disappearance of the settler kids as a means of stoking up hatred both in Israel and the West Bank, when they knew they were already dead: http://stopwar.org.uk/news/did-netanyahu-s-governm...

      And meanwhile everyone forgets the two Palestinian children who were murdered in May, long before any rockets were fired by anybody.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      We are in accord on much, of course. Hamas fired the first rockets perhaps we will not agree on. The situation is horrible. It is not like Germany in the 30s and you know that by showing the contentious opposing views from within Israel.

      Perhaps the peacniks need to march on Gaza then we would see both sides true colors.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      There were opponents of the Nazis in Germany in the 30s. I'm not saying that Israel has gone all the way with that, but it is moving in that direction.

      Don't disagree that Hamas fired the first rockets, but the evidence is clear that Israeli provocation, including the murder of two boys in May, and the attacks on Hamas in the West Bank after the death of the Israeli teenagers, started long before any rockets were fired.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      This will be my last message here. I'm glad we've reached some sort of accord and at least learned a little from each other. I just wanted to pass this message on to you, from some of the leaders of Palestinian civil society. I'm sure this is something we can all get behind:

      http://electronicintifada.net/content/no-ceasefire...

    • Jenisisi profile image

      Smart Onuigbo 2 years ago from Michigan

      The hypocrisy of the entire saga is one that is beyond belief. The lamentation of the colossal death toll against Hamas and the Palestinians is that Hamas is not able to inflict massive deaths against Israel not for lack of trying. Islamic radicals do not care about global outrage. The entire Muslim world jubilated over the downing of the World's Trade Center by al-Qaida. The world should not be fooled. Hamas will not hesitate to nuke the Jewish state if they could. Just imagine a reversal in capabilities and Hamas has the war armory Israel now possesses. Israel will be hunted and exterminated just like cockroaches. Therefore, Israel should rather be encouraged to finish the job right now right here. The Palestinian people and world would be better without Hamas.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Jenisisi, there is much truth in your comment. The whole travesty must be ended somehow.

    • Jenisisi profile image

      Smart Onuigbo 2 years ago from Michigan

      Thank you. My contention is that the state of Israel represents the western civilization Hamas and the rest of the Muslim world loath with a passion. If Hamas defeats Israel, they would be emboldened to come after us. That's why I believe the people of good conscience should unit to destroy Hamas and all that it stands for.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Egypt seems to have a real problem with Hamas also.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Here's another article debunking Israeli myths about who supposedly started this round of violence:

      http://www.salon.com/2014/07/28/debunking_the_myth...

      Egypt is a military dictatorship which has recently executed or imprisoned large numbers of people from the only party ever to have been elected in their country.

      As for the notion of Israel as a representative of western "civilisation": personally I don't consider the murder of children to be civilised.

      Jenisisi appears to be calling for a form of genocide. As I say, we're back to the barbarism of the 30s with this kind of talk.

      These are dangerous times. Those who don't know their history are condemned to repeat it, as a well-known philosopher once said.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      I hate to see and say it. But it appears only one side can survive.

    • Jenisisi profile image

      Smart Onuigbo 2 years ago from Michigan

      CJStone, I will like you to read Hamas's agenda as espoused in its charter. “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it. Our struggle against the Jewish State is very great and serious. It needs all sincere efforts.” The charter does not hinge the struggle on "occupation." Rather, the conflict in embedded in deep-rooted hatred.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      "We came here to a country that was populated by Arabs and we are building here a Hebrew, a Jewish state; instead of the Arab villages, Jewish villages were established. You even do not know the names of those villages, and I do not blame you because these villages no longer exist. There is not a single Jewish settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab Village." ­ Moshe Dyan, March 19, 1969, speech at the Technion in Haifa, quoted in Ha'aretz, April 4, 1969.

      "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000.

      "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

      "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.” Benjamin Netanyahu.

      http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/collective...

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      CJ isn't this rhetoric all before and 8 year old "cease fire" and agreement that had pretty much be peaceful?

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      I think that is clear he is talking about giving up Jerusalem.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      What's clear is that he's talking about the subjugation of a people and not allowing them any kind of self-determination "west of the River Jordan".

      You quoted the Hamas charter, I quoted the Zionist charter, which is still being implemented.

      Your point in this hub has been to show that the current round of violence was started by Hamas, and that therefore - by implication - Israel has a right to continue inflicting violence on the Palestinian people.

      I've sent you a substantial number of links that show that this is not the case, that the situation has been orchestrated by the Israeli government in order to undermine the Palestinian unity government. So far you haven't refuted that argument.

      Here is another link: an interview with an Israeli professor Ilan Pappe, which once more refutes your central argument.

      Please watch: http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/28/professor_il...

    • Jenisisi profile image

      Smart Onuigbo 2 years ago from Michigan

      CJStone, we are dealing with a more complicated issue than we think. All the links you cited are part of the conversation. What makes the Israel-Hamas conflict a quandary is that the combatants are heavily entrenched. Your quoting the Zionist charter as a counter to Hamas' further illustrates the level of entrenchment. My sympathy goes out to the Israel people and government who face the dilemma of being accused of deliberately killing innocent civilians. Meanwhile, it is undeniable fact that the only arsenal Hamas possesses is firing rockets from heavily populated areas knowing IDF's retaliation would lead to civilian casualties and they (Hamas) will harvest international sympathy. This is the real subjugation. I do not know how you want Israel to defend its people. The links are great. However, there are wonderful exercises in academic gymnastics that do not address the core of the issue.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      So your "sympathy" goes out to the Israeli people and government for the "dilemma" of being accused of killing innocent civilians. What about the civilians themselves? What about the 1,300 men women and children who have died? What about the thousands more who are injured, the tens of thousands made homeless, and the millions facing days and nights of terror under the bombardment? It takes a certain amount of mental gymnastics to see this and to then blame the victims for their own slaughter. The fact is that Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. It is an open air prison. No one can escape. In other war zones, the population can at least run away, but there is no space in Gaza to run to. How are the Palestinians to defend themselves? You even acknowledge that both sides are heavily entrenched. So, then, we need proper arbitration between the two sides, not this one-sided approach which sees and acknowledges the Israeli case, but ignores the Palestinian case. Those "academic gymnastics" you speak of so dismissively represent the Palestinian case, as observed by Jews, Palestinians and others throughout the world. Do you deny that the Israeli government knew of the death of the Israeli teens before they rampaged through the West Bank targeting Hamas operatives, or that two Palestinian teens had been shot before this, or that Israel blamed Hamas for the deaths, though it knew Hamas had nothing to do with it? So what, then, is the "core" of the issue? To the Palestinians it is the theft of their land going back to 1948, but continuing to this day, and the ongoing racism and apartheid inherent in the occupation of their lands.

      "(The Palestinians are) beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

      "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country." -- David Ben Gurion, 1938 speech.

      "(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." -- Israeli Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      And is this, too, "academic gymnastics"?

      From Jewish Voice for Peace:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxDYiBls99w

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      CJ --- Where do I find a Zionist Charter.

      I hear the rhetoric and the "conspiracy theories" -- http://community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4407...

      But I think it is made up by antagonists.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      CJ your quotes do seem like politico posturing and gymnastics.

      Where does the Arab League stand on the current issues.

      News and quotes are like Al Jazeera versus Fox news and rather tedious. The photo plague is becoming just disgusting propaganda that very soon shall backfire. Again Hamas is playing a weak hand and the bluff will soon backfire.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      The Zionist charter is unwritten, but displayed clearly in the words and actions of Zionists. 1,300 dead Palestinians, attacks on homes, schools, hospitals, market-places, Benjamin Netanyahu's own statements, all attest to what the Zionist agenda is. I'm sorry that I appear tedious. I wonder how tedious is all appears in Gaza right now?

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      CJ can I get you to back off on the premise that you can pick which speakers actually create an unwritten Zionist Charter?

      You are not tedious. Anyone following this hub is greatly enlightened by your contribution -- ( especially me ;-)

      Hamas must now make a reasonable overture toward peace and stop hiding weapons in all the places you mention which has caused so much civilian death.

      I was just thinking of the US rebels hiding in homes of civilians and Jewish sympathizers housing the likes of Frank. War is hell. Blame is plentiful.

      I imagine that heroes are also.

      Show some reasonable proof that Hamas did not fire the first missiles and did not invade through tunnels first. (the legal manhunt did not start this war missiles did)

    • Jenisisi profile image

      Smart Onuigbo 2 years ago from Michigan

      CJ, this civilians you want me to worry about are the same civilians who were shown on global media over joyous at the downing of the twin world trade center towers. They too have blood in their hands. If you are not tired of this Hamas' scheme, I am. The death of the "innocent" civilians works in Hamas' favor. Therefore, why would they take part in any ceasefire talk, not even the one initiated by the PLO leadership. The perennial wars with Israel is Hamas' strategy to achieve a semblance of credibility, having been so corrupt and inept, and therefore, not liked by majority of Gazans. However, Hamas expresses their collective dislike of Israel and the draconian border blockages, hence the reluctant support of the people. Meanwhile, this war has got to end one way or the other to stem this senseless Hamas-provoked human carnage. If you ask me, demilitarization of Gaza should be reciprocated with lifting of the embargo, economic and social squeezes.

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      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Jenissi, I don't want you to worry about anybody. It's obvious that you don't worry about other people from other countries, but I would like to ask you a question anyway: how many children under the age of ten who are dying now at the hand of the Israelis did you see dancing in the streets after 9/11? Come to that, how many of the civilians that are now dying can you say with certainty danced in the streets back in 2001? In case you don't know it, the basis of all law is that you are innocent until proven guilty and that due process has to take place. You don't attack a civilian population on the basis that some of them may have celebrated publicly after another tragedy nearly 12 years ago. Also, and in case you didn't pick up on this, the Israelis have been publicly celebrating the death of Palestinians recently, one group singing "Tomorrow there’s no school in Gaza, they don’t have any children left.” http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/g... So should we punish Israel by bombing the heart out of Jerusalem because of the ignorant chants of a few uneducated buffoons?

      Eric, after the last ceasefire agreement, in 2012, signed by both parties, I took note of Israeli violations of the ceasefire, which began within days. You refer to the attacks upon Hamas in the West Bank after the killing of the Israelis as "a legal manhunt", but you can't have it both ways. Either the Israelis have jurisdiction over Palestinian territory or they don't. If they have jurisdiction then the same law should apply to Palestinians as applies to Israelis. If the laws are different, then Israel is, by definition, an apartheid state.

      Now try to imagine the situation the other way around. What if Hamas had invaded Israel and killed nine Israeli citizens and captured many hundred more? What would the reaction of the World's media be to that? You seem to be saying that the ceasefire is only broken when Hamas breaks it, but not when Israel breaks it, which smacks of double standards.

      Can I point out that there is a Hamas ceasefire proposal on the table, as I've pointed out before. Any ceasefire has to involve two sides talking, not just one side unilaterally deciding what the terms of the ceasefire must be.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      We have your concept of apartheid right here in the US. Non-citizens cannot vote, children cannot do many things and felons have rights restricted.

      Until you accept that Hamas is not a benevolent group you will continue to make arguments based on the assumption that in this war only Israel can act wrongly. My original premise still stands. All you are doing is trying to suggest Hamas is more morally justified than Israel. Your strongly held position is admirable.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Apartheid refers to a political system where one group has less rights than another based upon their ethnicity. The term originates in South Africa, where white South Africans under apartheid were given specific rights denied to the black population, such as the right to vote.

      In the case of Israel, the state of Israel controls both the Gaza strip and the West Bank, but denies the people of those areas any rights. Jewish settlers in the West Bank are dealt with under civil law, while Palestinians are dealt with under military law. That is apartheid.

      When the three Israeli settlers went missing civil law would have demanded a police investigation, and bringing the perpetrators to trial, in the normal manner. Military law meant that Hamas members in the West Bank could be arbitrarily arrested and imprisoned (and indeed shot) merely on suspicion. It doesn't matter whether they are a benevolent group or not: justice demands that all people be treated equally under the law.

      The nature of the apartheid state means that when the two Palestinians were shot in the days before all this started, no one was charged, and no one went to jail, while after the 3 Israelis were murdered, Israel merely had to blame Hamas without any evidence in order to attack its members. Indeed, as we now know, it lied, knowing full well that the teenagers were dead and that Hamas were not responsible.

      I'm not assuming that only Israel can act wrongly, nor that Hamas is more justified than Israel. Hamas too have acted illegally, but the extent of their crimes pales into insignificance compared to the crimes of Israel. Also because Israel is supported both by of our countries, that makes us culpable in their crimes. In the case of your country, the USA gives Israel $3 billion a year and provides it with arms, which is what allows it to continue.

      If there is to be peace in the region, all sides have to be consulted, as the IRA were consulted in order to bring peace to Northern Ireland. That includes Hamas.

      You cannot imprison a people, humiliate and degrade them, treat them as 2nd class citizens, steal their land, steal their water, deny them proper health care or any hope of a future, build walls around them, shoot at them, arrest them and assassinate their leaders, dig up their olive trees, wreck their farms, break families up and not allow them to visit each other, and then expect them not to react.

      Hamas are the symptom, not the cause. There are non-violent forms of Palestinian resistance too. They are treated with equal disdain by this racist, violent, apartheid state.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Another interview worth watching, here with veteran Jewish American HENRY SIEGMAN: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39...

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      And here is an article by Siegman, mentioned in the interview, in which he puts forward his view that it was Israel who started the current violence. http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/07/isr...

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      " They are treated with equal disdain by this racist, violent, apartheid state." Sounds kind of a little over the top. You sound like a Jihadist a little here, which is OK if that is what you are. I would see how this kind of rhetoric is in keeping with Hamas and not peace.

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      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      I'd be a weird kind of Jihadist, being an agnostic middle aged Englishman, but I think all of those terms apply to what Israel is doing right now. I would probably tone it down if I wasn't so angry at the sight of dead children on my TV screen. Did you look at the interview with Siegman? I think he tells it like it is.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Another good analysis by another Jew:

      "The Israeli desire to live in peace is a desire to maintain its supremacy – a Jewish state founded on the basis of expelling its previous inhabitants – unchallenged by Palestinian violence. It is a desire for Palestinians simply to accept an eternity as stateless refugees, as an occupied people or as non-Jews in a Jewish state that sees their very existence as a 'demographic threat'. To paraphrase Netanyahu, what other people but the Palestinians would be expected to endure that?"

      http://stopwar.org.uk/news/if-the-bbc-s-neutrality...

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      I wonder about the apartheid --- I think it is 90% of our incarcerated are either Hispanic or Black in ethnicity. I think probably 90% of our illegal immigrants are African, Asian, Hispanic or Arab and not Caucasian. I think that a huge bulk of our impoverished and homeless are minorities instead of reflective of numbers of races.

      Children here are treated under separate laws and crimes against elderly are punished more severely.

      And we kill civilians. And our past with Native Americans and Blacks is not even bleak but horrendous.

      So I suppose what you say about Israel is the same about us and we deserve 9/11's.

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      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      "The overwhelming mood in Gaza is becoming one of defiance, says the BBC interviewer, before his interview with Nasman Al-Ashi, a Gaza resident, not a supporter of Hamas. "We either live free or we die here," he says.

      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=8870603313227...

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      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Apartheid in the implementation of discriminatory laws against specific races. You might say that the USA disadvantages people of colour, but that's not the same as apartheid. The word apartheid might apply to Native Americans, however, at certain times in your history.

      The indiscriminate killing of innocents for political ends, whether in Gaza now, or in New York on 9/11, is terrorism. No one deserves to die. But an honest culture would certainly ask itself what part it might have played in helping to create the conditions in which such a desperate act could take place. Certainly, for the world at large, US and British support for the on-going atrocities in Palestine would help explain why we are more often targeted.

      Terrorism breeds terrorism. When we terrorise others we shouldn't be surprised that they want to terrorise us back.

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      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      This is a group called Breaking the Silence. They are ex Israeli soldiers who are giving testimony about the abuse of Palestinians under Israeli occupation: http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

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      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Now watch this and tell me you aren't moved Eric. This is Hanan Ashrawi of the PLO telling us how she feels, as a Grandmother, as a Mother. "A massacre, a deliberate massacre," she says. "War crimes committed daily."

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqzCWJEqjjI

      Obama asks the Israelis to restrain, but then gives them more weapons to continue the carnage. We are all implicated in this.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Is Hamas elected?

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      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      They were elected, yes, but then there was a brief civil war with Fatah which Hamas won. They've since joined with the PLO in a unity government, which the US was about to recognise, hence, some people say, Israel's current action. Abbas, who the US and Israel do recognise, is not elected however, nor is the current Egyptian government, which is supposed to be playing the role of honest broker.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      I think you are wrong. Hamas does not have elections and never has. PLO does.

      But please show me the charter for elections and results --- for anytime. Hamas to my understanding is completely military and controls by force.

      If I am wrong on this I would rethink much.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      PLO does not sanction Hamas' aggression. The broad public in the Hamas "held" area of Gaza does not support Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization.

      Hamas' missiles come from Iran. (enough said)

      It is time to stop pointing the finger at how bad Israel is and start with the clear mandate that Hamas must be wiped out. The PLO can function just fine without them and they do no good for the Gaza citizenry. Constant finger pointing at Israel a democracy is just avoiding the issue of how bad Hamas is. It is a red herring and it supports terrorism, plain and simple.

      (Hamas just rejected a PLO/Hamas cease fire proposal -- their own - they are lunatics)

    • Jenisisi profile image

      Smart Onuigbo 2 years ago from Michigan

      You are right CJ, I did not see the children dance over 9/11. However, their parents did dance, and the children watched. We are told that Dad and Mom are always right. Those children may not have danced, but they got the message that killing Americans and Israelis is a pleasurable enterprise. You may not know this, these "innocent" children are bonfire potential suicide bombers. This may shock you. To volunteer a family member to go on a suicide mission for Hamas brings reverence to the family. You may have heard that Saddam Hussein paid $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers. Providentially, Allah will bestow on those who pledged a vow of martyrdom for killing Israelis a crown of glory and 72 virgins in paradise, and 70 of their relatives will be issue direct passes to heaven. This craziness is being taught at schools in the Muslim world, and the children are imbibing it. Now that there are a growing army of women suicide bombers, it follows that they too will also be getting the gift of 72 virgin males. Don't ask me for what. Your guess is as good as mine CJ.

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      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Jensisi, You are right, those children are potential suicide bombers, but I wonder if you have the imagination to put yourself in their shoes, to see what life might be like in that hell-hole of a place which is Gaza right now, and what might drive them to such an insane act? You want to blame Islam for it - as the Nazis blamed Judaism - but I would say that you have first to look at the conditions in which people live before you start blaming fairy stories. The sheer absurdity of your argument is shown by your reference to female suicide bombers. Yes it's true that young men of all cultures, full of the ardour and passion of youth, are often driven to excesses, whether as patriotic soldiers, or suicide bombers, but this is rarely true of women, who by nature are the life-givers. When women are strapping suicide vests to themselves then it shows how desperate that culture has become. It shows that they have nothing else to live for, which is a real measure of the level of violence being inflicted upon their world.

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      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Eric, Hamas were elected unlike Abbas, who was not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislati...

      Hamas is both a military and a political organisation, like the IRA or the ANC before them. There is an armed wing and a political wing, they won the 2006 election, and like the IRA and the ANC, the only way to achieve peace is to talk to them.

      I think I have to give up this debate. I keep passing on information to you which you proceed to ignore. You saw the interview with Hanan Ashrawi I presume? She is a member of the PLO, but is clear about her solidarity with the people of Gaza. The PLO and Hamas recently formed a unity government, which the current conflict is designed to smash.

      You say that Hamas must be "wiped out". How is this to be achieved, and how many more innocent men, women and children must be maimed and slaughtered in the process? Or are you like Jensisi, blaming the victims for their own deaths, and attaching fairy stories to them?

      The fact is the Hamas are deeply embedded in Palestinian life. The more that Israel attacks Gaza, the more it will bring the Palestinians together.

      I told you the story about Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland, didn't I? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972) After the massacre the IRA had a surge in membership.

      The same will be true in Gaza now. The more desperate a people become, the more they will resort to desperate measures. That's a fact of human life, and one that I'm sure the Israeli military know.

      The more they attempt to "wipe them out" the more numerous they will become.

      You might like this but Hamas see themselves as a resistance organisation, like the French Resistance before them. Indeed, that's what their name means: Islamic Resistance. You need to look at the psychology of resistance to understand what is going on. You cannot imprison a whole people, lock them up, hurt them and humiliate them, and not expect a reaction.

      You say that Hamas's weapons come from Iran and then add, in parenthesis, enough said.

      They will say that Israel's weapons come from the US, and then add the same thing.

      Enough said.

      The war could be finished tomorrow if the US stopped supplying Israel with arms.

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      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Did you watch the interview with Siegman above? It contains a clip of an interview with the Hamas leader. Siegman himself says that he has met Khaled Meshaal on a number of occasions who told him that while Hamas will never recognise Israel, it would serve in a government that did recognise Israel if the majority of the Palestinian people voted for that. You might also note that several Israeli cabinet members have said that they would never allow a Palestinian state, and that Netanyahu himself has said that Israel must always have security control West of the river Jordan. In other words: no Palestinian state. How is that any less extreme than Hamas's position?

      One of the problems you have is that your media is profoundly biased in one direction. I know that you are scornful of your media, but how else do you find out information? If the whole debate is framed around Israeli talking points, then you are only ever getting half of the story. Here is an analysis by a British newspaper about the way the story is framed in the US:

      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/...

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Hey our own Clinton and Pelosi want to negotiate with these folks too. Kerry apparently does. CJ -- I do not think they make any greater case than all of the solo folks you are showing me and apparently many readers here.

      Hamas is a terrorist organization. Israel is not. Both sides are in war. Terror is part of war. But no matter what Hamas is always in the business of terror. Those tunnels tell one heck of a story.

      You are correct I do not see justification for this terror like Kerry, Clinton and Pelosi and you do.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Terror is the deliberate targeting of civilians for political ends.

      Israel is, by that definition, a terrorist state.

      http://www.democracynow.org/2014/8/1/gazan_human_r...

      As I said earlier, your mind is locked tight.

      In the end there will be negotiations, because terror simply doesn't work. Meanwhile it is the civilian population of Gaza who are suffering.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      That is by no means the definition of terror. Rather than just reading and watching these talking heads do some real reading like "The Art of War" and learn what terror really is.

      Terror is an active part of a war used to strike fear into the opponent. A terrorist does this as his only tactic because he is illegitimate and has no other means of active warfare.

      Hamas just broke the cease fire with a suicide bomber. Hamas gets their weapons from Iran.

      I think that if you had a choice you would rather sit with an Hamas suicide bomber than an Hamas teacher --- because there are no Hamas teachers only "civilian combatants"

      All you can do is say how bad Israel is. You cannot point to one good facet of Hamas. Is that who you are? Are you just so angry at Israel that you will side with the Devil? I look hard for good and find none in Hamas just anger and egos run a riot with religious gobbledygook.

      If you look at the history -- it is your country that mucked this whole thing up in the first place, just like India's apartheid.

    • Jenisisi profile image

      Smart Onuigbo 2 years ago from Michigan

      CJ, the problem with the West is that we look at things only from the point of view of cause and effect. These children are not suicidal to address their poor living condition. Suicide bombing is an Islamic injunction as a way of evangelism. The charter of Hamas makes it clear that co-existence is possible only under the umbrella of Islam. However, I obeyed you CJ, and I have looked into their living standard, only to find out that most children in the squalors of Africa, South America, and East Asia have worst experiences. Many of them scavenge offensive smelling dumpsters to fetch food remnants and scrap metals to augment family incomes. The question to you CJ is why are these marginalized children of Africa, south America and Asia not resorting to blowing themselves up to get even with the supposed aggressors since by your posturing, suicide bombing is a natural consequence of poor living standards. The answer is simply that these other children are not daily bombarded by their elites that they need to sacrifice their lives as a show of love and commitment to Allah, whereas children from the squalors of Africa, Brazil, India and China have religions that espouses self contentment.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      What a very interesting comparison and analysis.

      For some reason it also makes me re-look at refugees.

    • Jenisisi profile image

      Smart Onuigbo 2 years ago from Michigan

      Thanks for your input. Believe you me, it bleeds ones heart to see children killed at the rate they are being slaughtered in Gaza. The ugly reality is that Hamas does not care about human lives for that's how they gain visibility, and relevance. Israeli's Prime Minister captured the hypocrisy of Hamas' strategy when he said that Israel shields its people with its ammunition, whereas Hamas shields its arsenals with its civilians.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      If there was no Hamas there would be peace in Gaza with civilians living there. If there was no Israel all Israelis would be dead.

    • Jenisisi profile image

      Smart Onuigbo 2 years ago from Michigan

      That is the end-game for Hamas. Israel wants to provide security in her borders, and peace in Gaza without Hamas. Hamas wants Israel exterminated from the face of the earth. However, bear in mind that Hamas is a terrorist group with entrenched Islamic agenda that does not augur well for Israel or the Palestinian populace.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Jenisisi this photo is a real game changer:

      http://jthomp42.hubpages.com/question/241563/what-...

    • Jenisisi profile image

      Smart Onuigbo 2 years ago from Michigan

      I'm not surprised. I only hope the west and rest of the world will see this horrific photos and vehemently condemn Hamas. I have long believed that the only way to stop the circle of bleeding in Gaza is to militarily defeat the terror group, Hamas.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Closer to the source of the photo I believe:

      https://twitter.com/jk_mane/media

      Many inside country photos through this source.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      No doubt there are bad acts attributable to Israel. And I suppose to some that justifies firing the first rockets and using children as human shields.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Note she says, "we are all Hamas now." That's what I told you would happen. If you don't understand that you don't understand human nature. She's not the only one to have lost family. 1,700 people have lost their lives, 9,000 injured, 83% civilians. All of them have families. How many people are there in those families? How many of those bereaved families now want revenge?

      From the Merchant of Venice:

      I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Christian is? If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.

      Change the word "Jew" to "Palestinian" and the word "Christian" to the word "Israeli", and you have an exact description of the way that Gaza feels right now.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Sorry but I read that piece and it was just an attention grabber and not really anything but one persons account and attitude.

      CJStone if you killed my mother and my brother I would not kill you in return. Most of us just do not think that way except for fanatics and in the movies.

      I understand many of my forefathers were wiped out in Guernica I do not want to kill Germans or Spaniards because of that bombing.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      If you want to continue this debate you can do so here:

      https://hubpages.com/politics/Gaza-The-Merchant-Of...

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      I'm starting to think that I may have been played. You didn't come and visit me at my site to continue the debate, so I'm assuming you're not really interested, but, just in case you are, here's a speech by a Jewish activist in London on Saturday at a march attended by 150,000 people of all religions, putting the case for Palestine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owQNoLiBdEQ&fe...

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      I visited and read https://hubpages.com/politics/Gaza-The-Merchant-Of...

      And it was well written of course but the same story. "Israel is bad so terrorist have a right to act as they do."

      I will go read it again and comment but it will be the same from me: "terrorists have no redeeming social value"

      The more you show me that Israelites are free to protest their government the more you prove it is a democracy and will end up doing the people's will. Whereas Hamas will not.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Eric, as you know, there's now a ceasefire in Gaza. The situation is back to normal. This is so you know what "normal" means: http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2014/09/12/omar-hamilton... There is nothing "normal" about a military occupation. These kinds of attacks upon a civilian population will continue, day in and day out for the next however many years, and when it all explodes again, which it will, and the Palestinians start firing rockets again, and the Israelis start bombing again, you can had least have some sense of the context this time.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      How sad it is that the "authority" cannot run a peaceful Gaza. I have no doubt that they will lob rockets again and get bombed again unless they can get it together and get rid of Hamas.

    • CJStone profile image

      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      Hamas don't rule in the West Bank nor in Israel, which is where much of this is taking place. The Nazis didn't "rule" in the Warsaw ghetto either. You've been sold a narrative bone and you're going to chew on it regardless of what actual truth there is out there. Go back to that list of violations of the ceasefire that have taken place since it was signed. Every one is documented. Hamas didn't break it, Israel did. Notice that it includes the judicial murder of minors. That is an international crime, one amongst many, and the only reason that Israel can get away with this is because your nation (and mine) continue to shelter it. We are culpable for these crimes. Our duty is to wake up and see the reality for what it is.What I am doing here is passing information on to you which our mainstream media conveniently fails to report. You can tell me to stop passing this information on to you if you like, or you can begin to pay attention to it. What you can't do is to pretend that it shows anything other than what it does. Hamas are abiding by the ceasefire. Israel are not. The crimes of Israel exist both inside Hamas jurisdiction and outside of it, so you cannot blame Hamas for this.

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      CJStone 2 years ago from Whitstable, UK

      I'm glad that you can justify this sort of devastation to yourself:

      An astounding use of photography and technology to show the extent of the destruction Israel wrought on Gaza. The Gaza War Map lets you view the panoramic scene from several locations in Gaza. After the website loads, click on the Palestinian flag to enter the virtual tour. Then select different locations, using the photos on the right.

      http://www.kolor.com/virtual-tours/20140818-kolor-...

    • Ericdierker profile image
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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      CJ, I am taking the time to review all of your information here. So far I am seeing what I expect as aftermath of war.

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      Eric Dierker 2 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Occupation is very fuzzy in these articles. I am not seeing a clear picture as usual. Just accusations and no fundamental explanations. The articles are so slanted truth cannot be discerned.

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