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Stolen Valor: How does it Affect Our Society?

Updated on April 7, 2012

A Local Accusation

Lone Pine, California, is not known as a hotbed of military and political intrigue. Rarely in the news, this small oasis in the Owens Valley enjoys the relative anonymity shared with its Eastern California neighbors along the state's Highway 395. However one man in the community is currently under investigation by the F.B.I for misrepresentation of his military record, citing accusations by some of his fellows at the local Lone Pine Veterans of Foreign Wars Post 8036.

Bill Wenzel, stationed in Okinawa, Japan during the early 1970s, had no comment on the allegations that he falsified his military discharge papers, claiming to have received 2 Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star, and a Silver Star. Some of Wenzel's accusers have been members of the same V.F.W. Post and claim to fear retribution; some have in fact quit the Post entirely, not wanting to be associated with a "dishonest organization."

The Director of Public Relations for the Military Order of the Purple Heart, John E. Birchner III, asserts that Wenzel is indeed not a member of the Order, yet points out that investigations into stolen valor can be complex and lengthy.

Stolen valor is not a new crime, nor is it easily defined. Some claim that valor in and of itself cannot be stolen, indeed, they find that it is a quality inherent in an individual under the extreme duress of battle.

Originally signed into law as simply a misdemeanor in 2006 by George W. Bush, the legislation evolved:

"This bill establishes the Stolen Valor Act of 2007 which makes it unlawful for any person to knowingly misrepresent himself or herself as a veteran or a medal recipient. Any violation of the provisions of the bill will be a class A misdemeanor for the first offense and a class D felony for any second or subsequent offense."

Criminal Fraud or First Amendment Violation?

Johnathan Turley, a professor of public interest law at George Washington University, has long studied the debate and concluded that it should be not considered a criminal offense, citing constitutional questions that are difficult to dismiss outright. In an N.P.R. Talk of the Nation interview conducted by Neal Conan in March of this year, Turley asserted that criminal fraud would be a more suitable charge in these cases. He goes on to argue that "...effectively, this law criminalizes every pick-up line in every bar across the country."

Turley questions whether freedom of speech is actually being threatened in these cases, particularly in the day and age of the Internet. It is common to exaggerate and pose as others in the cyberworld, and Turley claims that these charlatans and others should not be considered criminals, only pitiful and morally bankrupt individuals intent on false representation of themselves in order to gain attention. As it stands, the law applies whether or not benefit was incurred. Posing as a hero, claiming to have won honors, or even displaying such medals are sufficient grounds for prosecution. Numerous defense attorneys in these cases claim that misrepresentation of oneself as a medaled individual does not fit any of the banned categories of free speech: obscene, lewd, libelous, profane or creating danger imminent to others, such as shouting 'fire!' in a packed theater.

Those on the other side of the argument are adamant that Bush's Stolen Valor Act is necessary and echoes the wishes of our first Commander-in-Chief:

"Should any who are not entitled to these honors have the insolence to assume the badges of them, they shall be severely punished." -George Washington

Pete Lemon, a legitimate recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor for his Army service in Vietnam, supports the law and cites instances where fraudulent claims have brought gain both tangible and not:

"It gives you the power to entice somebody into marriage. It could give you the power to be able to join an organization, get special treatment with regards to getting tickets to a football game, getting license plates, getting preferential treatment in a job situation."

Purple Heart
Purple Heart
Rick Glen Strandlof, aka Rick Duncan
Rick Glen Strandlof, aka Rick Duncan
The Silver Star
The Silver Star
Xavier Alvarez
Xavier Alvarez
From left: Army, Navy/Marine Corps/Coast Guard, and Air Force Congressional Medals of Honor
From left: Army, Navy/Marine Corps/Coast Guard, and Air Force Congressional Medals of Honor

Pending Cases

In 2009, Rick Duncan, aka Rick Glen Strandlof, claiming to have served in Fallujah, Iraq and decorated with both the Purple Heart and Silver Star, founded the now nonexistent Colorado Veteran's Alliance, a Colorado Springs organization aiding homeless and disabled veterans. His claims of battle experiences were met with suspicion by the Alliance's Board of Directors and it was found that he was indeed an imposter who had never served at all. This man's contributions were noteworthy as an advocate for Veteran's Rights, however his reputation has been irrevocably damaged. The charge of Stolen Valor remains, but since the case did not involve profit-the man in fact assisted veterans-Strandlof's case may be thrown out of court.

Xavier Alvarez of Pomona, California, was indicted in 2007 after claiming to be an ex-Marine at a public meeting honoring his election to a water district board. He went on to claim that he was a recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor, the nation's highest military decoration. Alvarez was sentenced to 400 hours of community service at a veteran's hospital and received a fine of $5,000.

The Congressional Medal of Honor has approximately 17 living recipients and is bestowed upon an individual displaying:

"[Conspicuous] gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his or her life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in an action against any enemy of the United States; while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force; or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party."[1][2]

Morality and Legislation

All of these cases point to ethical responsibility and the reprehensible nature of claiming to have won honors others have sometimes given their lives to achieve. However the question remains whether or not such imposters should in fact be charged with crimes. As pointed out earlier in this article, the Internet is one example of a questionable place in which to place trust. Even face to face, some individuals are prone to lie for gain or attention. Perhaps this is part of the human condition, its frailties exposed and ugly-but is this tendency one that should be legislated?

I leave the question to you.


On October 15, 2010, Wenzel was sentenced to 50 hours of community service rather than a $500 fine.  Jail time was not considered.

For further information:

Do you feel that Stolen Valor should be a criminal offense?

See results


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    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      9 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      'Bottom feeders' is a great description, vietnamvet. I imagine they should be pitied, but that really does not seem to be enough. Jail time? Absolutely.

      Thanks for coming by.

    • vietnamvet68 profile image


      9 years ago from New York State

      as a veteran I have NO respect for someone who steals valor for him or herself. They are bottom feeders out to make a name for themselves and nothing more. They deserve jail time.

      Thanks for this great hub

      God Bless

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      9 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      Hi ryanedel-Public shame is often very effective, and might affect this issue, since attention is what these thieves seem to be after.

      But as you say, if the aim of these people is to benefit monetarily or to improve their station in life, they should be properly barred from such activity.

      Thanks so much for the comment.

    • ryanedel profile image


      9 years ago from Baltimore, MD

      A very informative hub - I had no idea that there was this much debate regarding stolen valor. I'd been under the impression that it's always been against the law, and now I'm questioning in my own mind whether or not it should be. I really like that you showed both sides of the argument so well. We might not be any more forgiving of the offenders, but you help us see why it's hard to figure out how to punish them.

      Honestly, I think this is the kind of situation where public shame might be more effective than legal prosecution. Maybe we should have a website similar to Snopes, except for valor thieves. If you get caught lying about unearned awards, you get your own page on the site. Or maybe the military could set up a way to quickly and easily verify the awards of all the veterans. Anyone applying for jobs or trying to get married, the potential employer or spouse could simply log in, enter the awards that they were told about, and then get a quick yes/no verification.

      The downside, of course, is that such a system would be a rather major privacy violation. I don't necessarily want everyone on Earth to have access to my service record. So the question comes down to the lesser of two evils - would we rather have a few liars squeak past unpunished, or have all the honest veterans subject to total scrutiny?

      I feel like I should have an answer, but your blog reveals that there won't be any easy ones for this.

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      Thanks for stopping by, Dolores-it's a very fine line, I agree.

    • Dolores Monet profile image

      Dolores Monet 

      10 years ago from East Coast, United States

      Stolen valor - sounds pathetic. But there is a difference, I would think, between someone bragging in a bar and someone using this misinformation for material or other gain. That's fraud. Very interesting hub, lorlie.

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      Hear Hear!!

    • profile image


      10 years ago

      Oh, it should be a crime is right. And a punishement with it! Thats my point.

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      I had no idea, ahorseback. Actually it seems like something that would happen today-cash for substitution. I consider Stolen Valor a crime, it's not 'just a pick-up line.'

    • profile image


      10 years ago

      This certainly isn't the first time the stealing of honor has happened, and in many different ways too, for instance in the civil war you could get someone to substitute for your place in the war , by paying them 1, 2,or 3 hundred dollars. Honor among thieves and heros? You could pay someone to take your sons place in the ranks of soldiers ? Today we seem headed for an ara where there is no punishment, no consequences , for many acts against the laws or society. Indicating a vast amount of low morals, no virtue , etc.....Nice hub.

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      Thank you so much, stars439! There is so much to read about these fabulous soldiers.

      Thanks for stopping by!

      PS: Enjoy Audy Murphy...

    • stars439 profile image


      10 years ago from Louisiana, The Magnolia and Pelican State.

      A wonderful hub. I love to read about real Medal of Honor recepients. I have a picture of Audy Murphy on my wall. God Bless You.

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      That makes absolute sense, Ronnie. These people are sad and pitiful to claim such honors. Lying is indeed universal.

      Take care.

    • profile image

      R. J. Lefebvre 

      10 years ago


      I liked Winsome's answer. Most people lie, many times, for many reasons. I don't believe there is a person alive that has not lied or stretched the truth for their own or someone elses benefit. However, telling a lie based on valor is indeed by someone who's feelings emotionaly insecure, that he feels like he must either lie or die. He needs a reprimend for the lie, and an emotional boost to think he has some worth without having to lie.


    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      I so agree with you, Sue. These people really get me angry! Thanks for the visit.

    • Sue1226 profile image


      10 years ago from Dallas, Texas

      people should not get honor for something they didn't do, for the one that did or do get them deserve them because they put their life on the line. And any one with true courage wouldn't claim something they don't deserve, it think they should get punished for something that took guts to get.

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      @prettydarkhorse-vague is THE operative word. Thanks for coming by and HUGS right back at ya!

      @Winsome-hahaha! Yep, you've got a great point-it's difficult to know where to draw the line!

    • Winsome profile image


      10 years ago from Southern California by way of Texas

      Great article Lorlie, there should be a penalty but I think the idea of "stolen valor" is similar to many ways people give themselves credit they don't deserve. Politicians are famous for it but I sometimes wonder about companies who call themselves "green" when they are not or spouses who say they are faithful and aren't or resumes that stretch or even lie about qualifications they don't have--I guess Mammy had it right in Gone With the Wind, a mule in a horse's harness is still a mule. =:)

    • prettydarkhorse profile image


      10 years ago from US

      great information lorlie, freedom of expression is at times vague, HUGS, Maita

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      That is so true, Dean, thanks.

    • cheaptrick profile image


      10 years ago from the bridge of sighs

      Short comment...What a man does in combat is what a man is...he knows inside himself and that's the only thing that matters.

      thanks Dean

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      @Quincy-yep, I seem to has dun dat, so tanx!!!

      PS: Love you!

      @cosette-I know! Look at the phrase 'stolen valor,' it is theft-of a precious and earned status. Turley's assertions do minimize this to such a great extent.

      Thanks for reading.

      @Shadesbreath-Well, this is a first, quoting a comment: "...stare into the mirror of their emptiness." Wow. I must add that I had never heard of this before I saw it on the front page of my small town newspaper a few weeks ago and found myself horrified that this was going on. I do agree that they are pathetic losers-obviously. However, it seems that their punishment-an average of 6 months in prison and 400 hours of community service-does fit the crime.

      Thanks for your input.

      @Nellieanna-Let's hope 'guest' returns to answer you. I do agree that this is no small lie meriting little attention-it does bestow honor and benefits the actual recipients deserve.

      Thanks again for such a beautifully written comment!

    • Nellieanna profile image

      Nellieanna Hay 

      10 years ago from TEXAS

      Guest, I also respect your point and opinion. Of course we must protect freedom of speech. However, there are "points beyond" which many moral offenses cross the line and lose the protection of rights humans can right-fully exercise.

      It's all right to conduct business and make a profit, but it abuses that right & becomes criminal when uses intimidation, force, false representation of facts to take advantage of & virtually steal from others for "profit". And sexual freedom is a personal right, but rape is not protected by civil rights. We can build a campfire in the woods, but we cannot deliberately set fire to the woods - nor even neglect to extinquish or to control our well-meaning campfire so that it destroys the woods and property of others. There comes accountability for using rights wrongfully.

      The Constitution and its Amendments were instituted to protect rights of honest people, not to protect wrongs of viscious people intent upon hurting or taking advantage of others and of riduculing the courage of those who risked their lives to protect the very rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

      We must, as you wisely point out, remember that those rights are precious & could be easily lost, so we must not be quick to let our own reactions trash them, but it's a case for clearly judging the facts and sepaating the rights from the wrongs. It's not a time or place to allow emotional outrage to rule, but that outrage can alert us to look closely and think about what is happening to our country and indeed our own rights when criminal intent is allowed freedoms that honesty is denied.

      Discussions such as his are one of our freedoms and a way that we the people have a chance to voice our opinions and to examine and consider all the subtle points which differentiate each case.

      One way to lose the rights quaranteed by the Constitution is to let them be abused so that they become a joke, as well as the ticket for wrongdoing to get by while rightdoing is punished and sacrificed.

      To me, this crossed the line & is not a "little white lie" such as any one of us might be guilty of on any day. Of course a case could be made that any lie could have bad effects on someone, but most of us who tell the ordinary lies about what something cost or whether someone looks fat in her clothes can recognize one of those, as well. But who would expect or even dream that a Silver Medal of Honor would be fake and not deserve all the honor which is symbolizes? That is one of the not "normal" misrepresentations of truth and it insults those who wear it rightfully and undermines the whole purpose of having the medal bestowed EVER.

      Please comment further if you still disagree. I'm open to more discussion and evidence that it's otherwise.

    • Shadesbreath profile image


      10 years ago from California

      This is a really, really interesting topic. I'm a bit ashamed to admit I wasn't aware of it. I have to say that for a large part of the article I was like, "BURN THE WITCH" as I thought about what these guys are doing. But, in the end, I think I kind of settled with the opinion that they are just pathetic losers. As long as they aren't actually getting benefits from the tax payers, well... private industry needs to do research on its prospective new hires (which I recognize that the PC government is making harder to do unless it's a white male being researched), but still, they can find out if they care. So, in the end it's just sad, pathetic losers who would do this. Whatever "respect" they stand to gain from the lie is lost ten-fold by the revelation, forcing them to stare into the mirror of their emptiness. Probably only making them try to lie more to compensate, but you have to admit, that must be a miserable existence. I am certain there is no penalty we could inflict that would make them more miserable then they are other than inflicting privation on them too. THat's almost adding insult to injury, really. Not quite, but, almost.

      Great hub.

    • profile image


      10 years ago

      ABSOLUTELY it should be a criminal offense. and Johnathan Turley's argument about pick-up lines is almost laughable. how can he possibly equate the two?

      what's next, stealing candy from babies? they should be ashamed of themselves.

      thanks for the exposé Lorlie. rating UP.

    • profile image


      10 years ago

      hey you cracked your writer's block! good job too :)

      'k bai. ~Quincy

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      Hi Hon-Everything's pretty good, actually, I thank you for asking, my friend. And you?


    • profile image


      10 years ago

      Hi Laurel, hope you're well today, and how's things? x

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      Pretty sick, eh? Thanks for coming by, Holle.

    • habee profile image

      Holle Abee 

      10 years ago from Georgia

      OMG - how low can people get?? Interesting topic!

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      @Guest-I see your point. For some reason, this gets under my skin more than simple lying.

      @Wayne-I was hoping you'd stop by-this hub is definitely out of my comfort zone! You somehow kicked my writing butt and I thank you for that.

      This crime is as it should be-I only wish they weren't stuck in court on 1st Amendment questions. These folks that sell them at gun shows, etc. are equally to blame.

    • Wayne Brown profile image

      Wayne Brown 

      10 years ago from Texas

      Glad to see you got your groove back, Lorlie...great subject that is near to my heart. My dad was awarded the Purple Heart and over the years I have seen it trashed and worn like costume jewelry decorating "look at me" outfits. Those medals reflect something that person gave or did that was above the fray. They (medals) show be shielded from abuse and given their proper respect. Thanks for a good and interesting article. WB

    • profile image


      10 years ago

      Very good research. Great reporting.

      I don't think valor stealing should be a legally punishable crime, because a liar is a liar. If we begin to punish liars as committing crimes, at some point we will all be punished. "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." who hasn't told a lie at some point, for whatever reason? I think it is a very ugly moral issue, but not a crime. What we say is still "free speech", be it lie or truth.

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      Charlie, thanks for your comment. It really should be a criminal matter-I agree.

      sheila b.-Nellieanna is one wise soul. Thanks for coming by.

    • sheila b. profile image

      sheila b. 

      10 years ago

      I believe Nellieanna has it right.

    • profile image


      10 years ago

      Great job on exposing such cads. It is criminal.

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      Tammy-so good to see you. These morally bankrupt individuals continue to astonish me. And I agree-they are sickening.

      Thanks for your input.

    • profile image

      Tammy Lochmann 

      10 years ago

      What an interesting subject and it has stirred some great conversation. I for one was riveted and read straight through to the end twice. To impersonate someone who has done such a terrific deed for his country is really reprehensible...Makes me ill to think about it.

      This was terrific. Tammy

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      @eovery-Thank you, I plan to!

      @Petra-You have a great point. In my research I found that these-mostly-guys seem addicted to medal collecting. Bizarre and so very sad.

      @WildIris-I agree about the buttons, they're not adequate for many hubs. Thanks for stopping by.

      @Nellieanna-Wow...thanks for your thoughtful comment! You are right, of course, that we should teach our children well, very well. Better than we have, certainly. I wasn't aware of this 'issue' at all either until it was on the front page of our small town newspaper. I simply could not imagine this crime until I sat down with a friend, a Purple Heart recipient from Vietnam, who went on to describe the horror at VA hospitals today-filled with vets unsatisfied with their commendations or lack thereof. Some of these men are understandably mentally ill as a result of combat experiences, some are simply lost in their own terrible imagination. I tried in this article to keep my own moral outrage out of it, to leave this open for debate, but I am horrified and actually condone something George W. did! :)

      @De Greek-Love your calling them 'creatures,' because that's exactly what they are. Good to see you.

      @samboiam-Researching this topic made me ill, I must admit.

      As you said, human nature is questionable at best.

      @Micky Dee-Thanks for putting your pet-peeve out there, I completely agree. George W. and his cronies ought to be prosecuted, but I don't see it happening.

      @akirchner-You are so right. Stealing valor is such a horrendous concept to me. And we jail people for marijuana-come on!

    • akirchner profile image

      Audrey Kirchner 

      10 years ago from Washington

      They are total traitors but not only that, they are thieves - what could be worse than stealing? I think it should be a criminal offense. There are so many things that we concentrate on that are meaningless to punish people for and then as Mickey says above, there are some 'folks' that just get off scot free. Things seriously need to change. Very thought provoking hub!

    • Micky Dee profile image

      Micky Dee 

      10 years ago

      There should be some punishment for misrepresenting - period. That goes for public officials as well. Public servants should be thrown out of the country when lies are told. I'm more concerned with these traitors. George Bush (i & 2), Clinton, "take your pick" should be tossed out. Make the punishment fit the crime. When you are a leader and in the public eye - truth is THE asset. For a while America needs to vote every incumbent OUT. Let's get real about the truth. More harm is done in our courts of "injustice". Do a search for the "falsely accused, imprisoned, and put to death". The search never ends. We have some of the scuzziest leaders in the world. Our court system needs an overhaul. Honesty is a rarity public life. Make the punishments fit the crimes. Start with the courts first. The courts are the most obvious source of lies- just in the way they are run. Our courts are the biggest lie perpetuated. Sorry I got off on a pet-peeve of mine.Thanks Lorlie!

    • samboiam profile image


      10 years ago from Texas

      Great job on this one. I personally believe it should be a crime. There have been too many who have valiantly served their respective countries who have never received proper recognition. Then to have some jackass parade around as a hero when in reality he is not, is a sad testimony to human nature.

    • De Greek profile image

      De Greek 

      10 years ago from UK

      Well, Nellieanna has advertised your hub and here I am :D

      And she is right when she says that "The courts don't regard perjury as "freedom of speech" " - The creatures who make claims to something they are not entitled to are just pathetic and despicable.

    • Nellieanna profile image

      Nellieanna Hay 

      10 years ago from TEXAS

      The courts don't regard perjury as "freedom of speech". False testimony is not considered a constitutional right. Failing to tell a new spouse that one already has another spouse isn't granted immunity because of freedom of speech. It's not OK to plagiarize just because one wants to do it. There are lies which simply are not tolerable.

      And as Petra mentioned, even a small lie grows as it effects others' lives and decisions. Even the "come-on" lines in bars or on the net are not just innocent "white lies" when they can lure someone into making wrong decisions which can become dangerous situations for them but which they would never choose if truth were known.

      What one does has effects on others. We don't get to go through life pleasing only ourselves at others' expense.

      Of course, we can't & shouldn't try to be responsible for all the misjudgements of others, certainly, but we can avoid cultivating them by deceptive presentation of what and who we really are, obviously to take selfish advantage of trust.

      In the case of stealing valor which others have rightfully earned by serious endangerment to themselves to help others & do the job above & beyond, it's really reprehensible. I voted yes that it should be a criminal offense.

      Thanks, lorlie, for an informative hub. I hadn't heard of all this going on. Possibly few of us have, what with the oil spills and other major events going on. But it's from small beginnings of moral decay and unconcern for others that all too many of the big disasters are tragic results, possibly because no one knew or thought to raise an eyebrow when they were smaller offences.

      I agree that punishment doesn't always deter. But teaching better principles might help, if people were aware that it's not OK to just do whatever one wants.

      I saw a TV program in which a killer's first crime was killing his sister and with a straght face he said it was because he wanted her bike. Unless better principles are taught to the young, what's to prevent future generations from becoming monsters? And it's not a matter of teaching them not to kill, it's a matter of instilliing a sense of decency and honor in all their choices.

      Forgive me for the soap box. It's just so important and urgent. And so easy to sweep aside.

      I'm definitely voting this up and useful.

    • profile image


      10 years ago

      I wish there were an interesting button on "Was this Hub...?"

      Perhaps if stolen valor were a crime then fewer would be inclined to steal a title that did not rightfully belong to them, but punishment does not always deter.

      "I do think these people are pathetic, though-that's for certain!" I agree. I enjoyed reading your Great Hub.

    • Petra Vlah profile image

      Petra Vlah 

      10 years ago from Los Angeles

      A small lie becames a big lie before you know it and it is just the first step and an alarming signal; more serious offences may follow. Would you punish a child for lies? I would

    • eovery profile image


      10 years ago from MIddle of the Boondocks of Iowa


      Keep on hubbing!

    • lorlie6 profile imageAUTHOR

      Laurel Rogers 

      10 years ago from Grizzly Flats, Ca

      Thanks creativeone59 and suziecat7-I still don't know what to think of this whole issue. The more I researched, the more confused and murky the thing became.

      I do think these people are pathetic, though-that's for certain!

    • suziecat7 profile image


      10 years ago from Asheville, NC

      This is a very interesting Hub. Are they criminals? In my mind, yes. But I didn't vote because I'm not sure. I guess being a pathetic big fat liar is not a crime unless they profit from it. Food for thought.

    • creativeone59 profile image

      benny Faye Douglass 

      10 years ago from Gold Canyon, Arizona

      Thank you for a very intersting story with great information. Thank you for sharing. Godspeed. creativeone59


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