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Support Gay Marriage, Support Religious Freedom

Updated on July 8, 2011

One of the most common arguments against same sex marriage in the United States is that it will destroy religious freedoms and increase government interference in churches and other religious organizations by forcing churches to marry gay couples, even if they oppose gay marriage/

The problem is, the exact opposite is true.

Religious freedom laws are completely separate from marriage laws in this country. The United States Constitution protects the right of churches and other religious organizations to refuse to marry same sex couples on religious grounds. This is not going to change if same sex marriage becomes legal throughout the nation. In fact, it's written into the Bill of Rights itself, and you can't get much more set in stone in this country than that.

Here's the funny thing, though. Because marriage laws in most states prohibit same sex couples from marrying, churches and other religious organizations that DO support same sex marriage are prevented from marrying same sex couples in accordance with THEIR beliefs.

Strangely enough, I don't hear a lot of "religious freedom" advocates complaining about that!

So, by legalizing gay marriage, you actually get the best of both worlds:

  1. Churches that DON'T want to marry same sex couples don't have to, and
  2. Churches that DO want to marry same sex couples can!

Photo by pinquino
Photo by pinquino

Do you support same sex marriage?

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Personally, I believe government should stay out of the religious aspect of marriage altogether.

Many straight couples (myself and my husband included) are already choosing to forgo a religious ceremony in favor of a civil one. The state and federal benefits of marriage are available to straight couples regardless of which type of ceremony they choose. The important part is the marriage certificate, not the type of ceremony.

I propose that current federal and state benefits, based on what we currently call a marriage certificate (it could be renamed to civil union certificate if people are more comfortable with that), should be available to both straight and same sex couples. If the couple wishes to have a religious ceremony as well, then should be entirely between the couple and the prospective church or other religious institution.

Voila! Problem solved!

Before I finish, I'd like to point you to this excellent video, which goes into more detail about some of the legal history relating to same sex marriage. I hope you find it as interesting and enlightening as I did.

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    • profile image

      Reg 5 years ago

      Thanks for this nice post Hub! finally a post that is based on Gay marriage. in my opinion we should just accept them for what who they are. because they are still human beings that have a heart and a body like ours. so for me, we should let them live by their perspective of life.

    • profile image

      Danquebec 6 years ago

      Wow braudboy is a very ignorant and scary person.

      I'm not going to argue, especially since I'm tired of arguing on Internet and that it will be against a wall.

      Just explaining it again for those who didn't understand.

      - We legalise marriage for gays.

      - Churches and other religious groups can choose to refuse to marry gays.

      - Churches and other religious groups can choose to accept to marry gays.

      - Equals.

      - Religious freedom.

      And you have no right to decide their religious ceremonies.

      I'm not homosexual myself, but I'll fight all my life for the rights of every beings that haves feelings, until all are free.

      Reason and only reason shall triumph.

      (Sorry for possible grammar errors, English is not my mother tongue.)

    • CkhoffmanK profile image

      Chelsea Hoffman 6 years ago from Las Vegas

      I don't support religious views being forced down our throats. Gays have any right as straights do. We're all people, and we're all americans. Keep your church out of our laws! bottom line.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Queenie- It is fact that 11 states have voted on the "gay marriage" issue and it was defeated 11 times. I am not going to go look it up for you.....I will let you do that. The research will be good for you. DId you hear that only 11 states have voted on this subject and 11 times it was defeated. That is 100% of the time, the American people voted down a "gay marriage" proposal. OK, now we are done.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Braud,

      Open mouth, insert feet! Just put both of your feet in your mouth.

      Weren't you the one stating you had state poll results to prove what you say? All I did was ask to see them.

      11 states? What about the rest, which is the majority?

      You can stand agaianst it and I will stand for it because it is wrong to choose whom someone else can/cannot marry and judge/condemn them in the process.

      So, you quit me, huh? Well, I guess this is the end of a debating relationship. lol! How sweet it is.

      Now, lets debate another topic. This was fun!

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Queenie....let's call it quits. Your mind is made up and so is mine. You make no sense anyway. How can you ask for polls on election results. They are THE RESULTS! At least 11 states have defeated the "gay marriage proposal" on the election ballot!!!!! Anyway..... I have said about all you can say on this issue. It is wrong to legitimize this behavior and I will always stand against it.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Braud,

      There you go judging and condemning again. Didn't you get anything from the scriptures I posted?

      Let me help you out...just because we have different views does not mean I should be condemned. Go ahead and condemn me if you want, it is your soul.

      If they have no interest in upholding Christian values, that's ok. They can choose whatever faith they want to follow. Besides, you have a great many Christians who are not living up to Christian values.

      You keep speaking of state ballots, yet you post no poll results so that we all can see. I guess it wouldn't matter anyway because there are people who agree with you, however, a good majority do not.

      Braud, lets leave Christianity out of this because I would hate for you to go to hell being so self-righteous, judgemental, and condemning people. Just make your non-existent points without religion because you have not only lost your mind, but, you truly lost your religion.

      Sorry, but I just didn't read the rest of your hogwash. Come back to Earth, then we can talk

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Queenie...I guess your brand of Christianity has no desire to see others come to know Jesus. I suppose you have discarded the part of our faith that witnesses to others who are caught up in the ways of this world. We are not to accept this, but to "spread the good news" that others would put away their foolish desires and strive to live a righteous life. An occasional trip to "Sunday services" should be in order for you, Queenie. You see, Queenie, I do understand that this fight is about right and wrong and it is not a fight among Christians. THis radical gay movement has no interest in upholding Christian values or in even discussing the bible. This is a movement to destroy Christian values and to trample on the decent principles and morals that are rapidly decaying in our society. I, for one, will do my best to stand against this attempt. As evidenced by many state elections where "gay marriage" have been on the ballot, I am not alone.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Queenie- you especially must be condemned! YOU claim to be a Christian and, therefore a representative of CHristian values! You, however, ignore the teachings and principles of your faith, and become the biggest hypocrite of all. YOu have totally distorted your Christian beliefs. We are not talking about judging individuals....we are talking about standing up for what your faith sets forth as right and wrong. We are talking about safeguarding your society from a radical movement that attempts to destroy the principles and morals of decency, that demands approval an acceptance as normal for their obvious sinful behavior, that seeks to re-define society's definition of traditional marriage and family values. Queenie- you can be as loving, and as forgiving as need be as you meet each gay person individually.....but this "gay movement" is a broad attack on Christian values and an attack on the building blocks of our society. Queenie.....I again suggest that you speak with your pastor or any of your church brothers and sisters....but I suspect you have none and your Christianity is some fantasy in your mind.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      sneakorocksolid,

      I guess we are still at it like two little kids. I'm the mature one, though. lol

      Braud,

      You always say what I missed. What about the 1000's of points you missed?

      1. What principles are you referring? The ones that you, yourself disregard?

      2.The only way Christians should stand for right and wrong is when someone is being done wrong. That is what I am doing. Gays/Lesbians are done wrong when they are denied the same rights and common decency.

      3.Gays are not trying to tear down my religion or else I would stand firm on that issue. HOwever, since you say Christians should stand firm on their beliefs, then why do you condemn me for doing so?

      4. I do not miss a point!!! You know what you should do as a Christian. Don't blame me if you don't!!!

      5. You say you don't judge, yet you continue to brand them and say things that are uncouth. If that is not judging, I don't know what is.

      How about this Braud...just say, "gays/lesbians live your life as best you can. No one has the right to judge you or take away your right to choose. I will pray for you if you make the wrong choice and I will pray that you make the right choices." If you cannot say that, then you are not a true Christian.

      However, after that, you have placed it in God's hands in case they do make wrong choices. That is what a Christian does. A Christian does not talk abusively about anyone as you have done. As a Christian, you should check yourself before you wreck yourself. lol.

       

    • profile image

      sneakorocksolid 8 years ago

      Queenie and BB, you two still at it? This has to be a record!Peace.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Queenie- I understand the need for humbleness, love, and understanding. THey have their place in dealing with people. But, you miss the total picture if you dont see the obligation of Christians to protect their society from being overrun by those who have no regard for these principles. It is a juggling . Act to be sure. BUt, Christians are to stand up for right and wrong as they give love and understanding for those in need. BUt, as they are confronted by those who try to tear down their religion and its principles, Christians are also directed to stand firm in their beliefs.

      Queenie, you consistently miss the point when you say " If you feel what a person does is wrong..it is not your place to condemn or judge them"

      On a one to one basis, I do not judge homosexuals, I understand they are misguided and in need of guidance. BUt, we are talking about a movement on a large-scale that is designed to redirect our society and to redefine our morals and principles, and it is on this basis that I make my stand. You need to be clear what we are debating here.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Braud,

      As a Christian, you have to show yourself to be humble, loving, understanding, forgiving, etc. Otherwise, the things you have said do not sound Christ-like. How is anyone to believe that you are a true Christian if you are not carrying yourself as one?

      If you feel what a person does is wrong...it is not your place to condemn them or judge them. You have a right to your opinion, but, not the right to condemn. As Chrstians, we pray for them.

      It is my opinion that gays should have the same rights and should be able to marry if they decide to do so. If you feel I am wrong then just pray for me. I feel you are dead wrong, so I pray for you. But, to condemn and judge is a sin, too. So, you are in no better position.

      Your hateful rhetoric towards gays resounds like an angry lynch mob. I am sorry, but, I will not hate along with you. So, if that means I am sinning, then, this is one sin I will uphold.

      When I was a little girl, a lady got on the bus and started shouting out, "Hell is full of church goers!" I thought to myself...this lady is crazy.  Church goers are going to heaven.

      When I became an adult, I realized she was probably right.  Church goers attend church all the time, but, not understanding the religious principles or applying it. Kinda like what you are doing on this blog. Be careful of that.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Queenie- you are confused. i am judging no one. You deceive yourself as you spout your rhetoric. I confront the sin. I single no one out and I tell you that I sin also. What is very different here is this. There is a movement to promote this sin and to elevate it to nomal activity and to give it prominence in our society. THis cannot be tolerated....as any good Christian would know. Christianity has never been about telling everyone to live as they please, and to give in to whatever lustful desires come their way. Your Christianity is very distorted and I will stand up against it. You, however, have done some very good judging yourself as you paint all who speak out against the homosexual sin as haters, and bigots, and other names.

      Livelonger- Your jewish religion is some brand different from the old testament. Your morality gives freedom to commit sin without rebuke and to rebuke those who speak out against sin. From a societal perspective, where we should have principles and boundaries, your way is useless.

      Oh, and Queenie, there is forgiveness and love waiting for all who are pushing this"radical gay agenda" on America. They need only come to Jesus. But, until that day, while they are attempting on attacking Christianity and promoting the sinful destruction of decent society, they will meet resistance by those who are holding dear the morals that are in place for our citizenry.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Braud,

      try these scriptures on judging other people, which is what you are doing

      Helpful Not Helpful

      Matthew 7:1-5 ESV / 43 helpful votes

      “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

      Helpful Not Helpful

      Luke 6:37 ESV / 24 helpful votes

      “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

      Ephesians 4:29 ESV / 16 helpful votes

      Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

      Matthew 7:5 ESV / 8 helpful votes

      You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

      Now a scripture on choices we have to make for ourselves. He gives us the choice to serve whatever faith,principle, etc.

      24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

      Now a lesson on brotherly love

      PRO 10:12 Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.

      The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born.

      Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God

      Now the last one about aliens, you can refer that to gays/lesbians. Not because they are alien, but, because their lifestyle is alien to some people. I would use the same principle

    • livelonger profile image

      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      braudboy: Actually, my morality is from a Jewish perspective. Maybe that is still of no use to you. Thankfully, I'm not in the habit of caring what immoral people consider ethical behavior, no matter what they call themselves!

      Qweenbee: You're right. The most important thing is to be a good person. Anyone can be bad and console themselves with membership to a church. It's a good thing that most people know the difference.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Queenie- If you are truly a Christian, this passage from the bible might help:

      ROmans 1: 24-28- " So God let these people go their own way. They did what they wanted to do and their filthy thoughts made them do shameful things with their bodies. They gave up the truth about God for a lie, and they worshipped God's creation instead of God. God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things to each other that was not natural. Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds. Since these people refused even to think about God, he let their useless minds rule over them. That's why they do all sorts of indecent things."

      Livelonger- you know morality from a heathen's perspective. It is of no use to me.

      Queenie- Christianity is certainly a choice.....however, if you do choose it, it does help if you try to uphold its principles. You dont condemn people, but you certainly speak out against sin and not let it overrun the society where you try to raise your Christian family. I actually dont see how you combine a Christian faith and supporting gay rights. You try to have it both ways but you lose credibility.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Braudboy,

      I just thought of something else...

      There are many, many, many men who claim to hate gays. But, in reality, they wish they had a gay man. I have learned that the people who talk so negatively about gays/lesbians are the same people who are secretly dating gays/lesbians.

      So, if you think there are most people against it. Think again. There are people who are for it but are being secretive about it. I think one of those people is you. Sorry, if I offend, but, just telling my thoughts.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Livelonger,

      Thank you! lol. That's OK that you are not a Christian. I understand. Not everyone follows that faith, which is their choice. Get it Braudboy...their choice! Christianity has taken me a long way from where I used to be, so I stayed with it.

      I used to be a Braudboy X 10. I had no love, understanding, compassion, etc. for no one. I was a mean and hateful little cuss. lol. All that has changed for me since becoming a Christian. I am fallible, therefore, I fall short many times. However, I still do the best I can to live up to what is expected of me as a Christian. Its hard (especially dealing with the Braudboy type), but, I am determined to do it right because it made me a better person.

      One of the things is supporting gay rights.  I am active in my community/city on gay rights. I truly believe in my heart that the Supreme Being loves us all and gives us all the same opportunities. No one has the right to counter that. Gays/lesbians are people too and should have the same rights as any straight person. Some are but not limited to... to be free to make their life's choices, be happy, and prosperous. I will bet my life on that.  Some of my best friends are gay/lesbian and I DO NOT see the behavior that Braud speaks of. Neither do I feel any of the things Braud speaks of. But he has his opinion and I have mine and I am sticking to it like bees to honey.

    • livelonger profile image

      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      I wouldn't go so far to say I hate Christianists, but I certainly don't like them, and know they are immoral people.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianism

    • profile image

      sneakorocksolid 8 years ago

      LL, Christianist!? Christianist!? How many different hatreds are there? You WeeNee.Peace.

    • livelonger profile image

      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      Qweenbee: I am not a Christian myself, but I can respect those people who live according to Christ's principles (Christians) while not liking those pharisees that couch all sorts of hatred in the language of their religion (Christianists). I think you expressed your point exceedingly clearly; if, like everything else, it falls on deaf ears with braud, then that's unfortunately his cross to bear (no pun intended).

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Braudboy,

      1. I am a true Christian and as a Christian I DO NOT judge others, which is a sin.

      2. I don't have any obligation to MAKE anyone do anything. I have ONLY my cross to bear. When I stand before God on judgement day, I will only answer to what I have done wrong. Sorry,  but being a Christian does not mean to take the weight of the world on my shoulders. Christ did that and I am far from Christ. I guess you missed that in church or wherever you learn your religious lessons.

      3. I don;t have to check with my pastor to formulate my own opinion on gay rights. I have my own mind and not even my pastor can change that. Besides, my pastor is not God and God instructs us to be decent to each other. God does not discriminate and neither should his followers.

      4. Whenever I go to church, it makes no difference. You must be one of those hypicrits who go to church all the time, but, practice no Christianity. I would rather be a Christian who attends church less, but, practice Christianity regularly, than to be a Christian who attends church often and practice Christianity rarely. Christianity comes from your heart, not church. If you are a true Chrsitian, you would know that

      4. I always try to do right by all because its the right thing to do. I truly believe gays should have the same rights. Especially since they contributing the same if not more. Our supreme being gave us ALL the right to choose. If they choose to marry, that is their right. No one has the right to take that from them.

      5. I don't condemn any sinner simply because it is not my place to do so. Just like Jesus spoke to the crowd that was throwing stones...he said, "he who is without sin, cast the first stone"  I am too poor in spirit that I need God in my life. So poor that I, too sin. So I cannot throw stones and neither can you. A true Christian will be humble and admit that they are poor in spirit. Why? because none are perfect and they are a liar if they believe thay are without sin.

      Sorry, I don't practice Christianity the way YOU think I should, but, through my journeys I have learned how to be a Christian. Condemning people and judging them is not a good way to become a good Christian. in fact, it is a self-destructive way. Keep living, it will come to you. If it haven't already.

      Livelonger,

      I was going to post this previously, but, I had a feeling that maybe Braud was feeling tempted in order for him to be so adamant about what he said. I thought to myself...hmm, its deeper than what meets the eye. Now, its all coming out

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Queenie- if you are truly Christian as you say, then you know that you have an obligation to your brother to keep him accountable. I would check with your pastor for some much needed guidance. I suspect that you are one of those hypocrites who show up on Easter and maybe Christmas eve, but have no real concern for the teachings and principles of Christianity. I prefer the honesty of agnostics and non-believers to such behavior. Queenie-doing right by all is not condoning all behavior. Your principles are mis-guided if you think this is Christianity. You dont condemn the sinner, but you must speak out against the sins. Your watered down CHristianity is of no use to anyone. ...and the design theory is very much intact and fullproof. To deny our design for the opposite sex is futile and ridiculous.

      Livelongr- if you comprehend what I write, you will notice that I state that man faces all kinds of temptations. Homosexuality has never been one of my weaknesses. BUt, here is a great example of the choice of homosexuality. THis behavior is very widespread in prisons as men give in to sexual frustrations and desires and have only other men to act out on. It is very much a condition of their surroundings and not something they are born with. We should be very careful in excusing behavior in people, and instead, hold them accountable for their actions. It is the only way society can keep order. To not do so is to assign a birth defect to everyone for every bad behavior and let everyone claim a disability and neglect their duties as decent humans.

    • illustros profile image

      illustros 8 years ago from Washington, D.C.

      This same-sex marriage issue is not being dealt properly by both its advocates and its oppositions. It just creates noise rather than enlightenment.

    • livelonger profile image

      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      braud: what you wrote is interesting. Do you think homosexuality tempted you? Were you seriously tempted by it? Do you have an attraction to the same sex that you fight off because you think it's immoral?

      I can understand your perspective that it's a choice if in fact you have an inherent attraction to the same sex that you decided against acting upon.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Braudboy,

      You are always talking about the design as you feel it applies to men and women (male and female). I am just making a point that, that DESIGN does not apply in every situation whether reptiles or humans. Thereby, making your design theory a flop.

      Let me remind you that I am straight, however, always have supported the gay community, as far as civil rights. It is my responsibility as a Christian and as a decent person with morals to try do right by all. That includes gays/lesbians.

      When you say, "how society feels about this"...speak for yourself! I don't feel that way and neither do many others. I just don't see your logic in all this. 

      Whatever stats you have, I would love to view how the other small portion of the country feel.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Kerryg- actually, many homosexuals have re-joined mainstream society. You, however, are in denial about this because it goes contrary to your cockamaymee theory that homosexuals are born this way. So you write them off as bi-sexual or confused as to who they really were. Your logic holds no water. The obvious truth is that sexual activity is a chosen one. People do have character flaws and weaknesses and we all have to battle these as we go through life. BUt, what we dont do is promote and celebrate our flaws and push them on society as normal. THis is the whole point that we are arguing. I don deny gays the right to engage in whatever actviity, no matter how vile I think it is. What I do object to, is the elevation of a wrongful behavior to a status of normalcy in the society's public square. A re-definition of decency and a tearing down of the cornerstone building block called "marriage" so they can feel better about the abhorrent behavior is unacceptable. Society must safeguard these principles and morals to be passed on for future generations and to assure the future flourishing of said society.

      kerryg- you will find that man has all kinds of temptations in his life and opportuinities to stray off into "bad behavior". What really reveals good character is the ability to resist the opportunities and temptations that we know to be wrong or that are hurtful to others or to our own moral fiber. Liberalism has been a systematic attempt to tear down all of these character building moments, and instead, try to urge all behaviors and make them feel good in doing so. This "feel good" strategy is a lie and only puts these people into uncharted waters where they find themselves immersed in these "bad behaviors" and unable to escape back into mainstream society.

    • kerryg profile image
      Author

      kerryg 8 years ago from USA

      Most western societies have "disapproved" of homosexual behavior for nearly 2000 years, yet homosexuals have not "rejoined" mainstream society. In fact, as I've said before, the percentage of homosexuals has remained remarkably consistent through past and present cultures where such data is available.

      Are you familiar with Occam's Razor? The simplest explanation is usually the right one? Either an amazingly consistent percentage of people from all sorts of societies, including both those with greater acceptance of homosexual behavior than Judeo-Christian ones and those societies past and present where homosexual behavior is punished by death, just happens to "choose" to be homosexual, or maybe, just maybe it's biological in origin and a certain percentage of people are genetically programmed to be moresusceptible to the factors (such as hormonal exposure in the womb) that result in homosexuality.

      There is, by the way, some evidence for a genetic component in alcoholism as well, and everybody knows that alcoholism runs in families. It runs in mine, and for that reason, I don't drink. Admitting a biological basis for a problem does not remove the duty of the afflicted person to control him or herself at all. In fact, in increases it.

      Alcoholism is, however, and extremely poor example because alcoholism is inherently harmful to the individual and any loved ones caught in the crossfire. In contrast, homosexual sex, like heterosexual sex, is NOT inherently harmful, provided the people involved are responsible about it. Not all homosexuals are, it's true, but not all heterosexuals are responsible about sex either, and at least irresponsible homosexual sex can never result in an unwanted pregnancy!

      Re: bisexuality and "going in and out of the gay lifestyle", I don't think you really understand the terminology here.

      Bisexuals do "choose" to engage in homosexual activity but they do not "choose" to be *attracted* to both sexes. They just are. Sexuality, whether hetero, homo, or bi, is defined by attraction, not by action. I am technically bisexual, as I have been sexually attracted to women before and expect to be again, but in practice I am 100% heterosexual, as I've only had one sexual partner in my life and he is very much male. :)

      Check this hub out, you might learn something: https://hubpages.com/politics/What-is-Your-Sexuali

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      I do not prefer to "ghettoize" them as you suggest. I prefer to let them know how society disapproves of their poor behavior. As, this is a choice, many might choose to rejoin mainstream society, and gain their rightful place there. Poor behavior should always be shunned, especially when it is being pushed to prominence in society's forefront. Society has every right to reject those actions that do not characterize its principles and morals.

      ...and kerrg, you most certainly do promote "anything goes" living and there is no greater example than your approval of the gay lifestyle.

      And kerryg dear, going in and out of the gay lifestyle is CHOOSING the activity and not some defect they are born with. I suppose you think there is a "drug addict" gene and an "alcoholic" gene, and a "homeless" gene. A definite flaw of the liberal mentality is they want to take away responsibility from individuals and remove them from any fault of their actions. When you give them the idea that they are born this way, you take away their need to make responsible decisions for their life...and you do them no favors when you deceive in this way. People certainly do have control over their lives and they do need to understand consequences for bad actions they choose to participate in.

    • kerryg profile image
      Author

      kerryg 8 years ago from USA

      As I have said over and over again, nobody is claiming there is a "gay gene." There IS strong evidence of a genetic component, but a more significant factor appears to be exposure to hormones and other factors in utero.

      People who venture in and out of the "gay lifestyle" are called bisexuals, my dear. They are quite common. In fact, many of the studies of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom has found that bisexuality is more common among many animals than either pure heterosexuality or pure homosexuality. Nearly all bonobos, for example, are actively bisexual. (That's Pan paniscus, our closest living genetic relative, as you'll recall.)

      I am aware of STD problems in the gay community. As I have laid out several times already, that is one of several practical reasons I support gay marriage. I believe it will reduce promiscuity among certain corners of the LGBT community. You apparently prefer to ghettoize them instead in the hope that they'll all kill themselves off with disease without affecting the rest of society, but history has shown exactly how effective that tactic is! (Not at all. Ignoring them won't make them go away!)

      Finally, I hardly promote "anything goes" living. I'm probably more conservative in my personal lifestyle than you are! Sexually speaking, I oppose irresponsible promisuity quite strongly. Unlike you, however, I acknowledge that some heterosexual couples are just as irresponsible and promiscuous as some homosexual couples, and do not believe that just beause they are heterosexual, their irresponsible and promisuous behavior is somehow "better" or more okay.

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      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      kerryg- your view of science is more like science fiction. A real endeavor into science will reveal no proof of a "gay" gene or any other evidence of gayness. "Gay" is merely a declaration of some preference and nothing more. Gays have ventured in and out of the lifestyle as they see fit. I know that you want to believe a "biological" reason, as it suits your purpose. Most reasonable people understand the lack of science in this whole charade....and kerryg, if you really want to talk STDs you should examine the scientific evidence that sexual disease is rampant in the homosexual community. Finally, kerryg, you give obscure and rare examples to try and promote an undesirable activity forced upon mainstream society and this makes no sense. Your logic is flawed and you are blinded by the fight of a losing cause with no redeaming qualities for the society it preys on. Kerryg, I certainly want to strive toward morality and principled living and not toward the depths of depravity and "anything goes" living that you promote.

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      kerryg 8 years ago from USA

      livelonger is male, by the way.

      As our brief discursion into spanking should have made clear, I believe rather strongly in consequences for people's actions. However, I also believe in science and science makes it rather clear that there is a biological basis for homosexuality, so in most cases I do not believe that homosexuality is an "action" rather than a state of being. I'm aware that you disagree with this but science disagrees with you, and I have considerably more respect for the scientific process than for your unexamined moral prejudices.

      Like you, I view monogamous relationships as the ideal, but it really doesn't bother me in the slightest if they are hetero or homosexual.

      Even if you oppose homosexual marriage/civil unions, as I know you do, you have to admit it's better than forcing homosexuals to marry the opposite sex and dragging another person into the issue. One of my husband's cousins, a good girl who lost her virginity on her wedding night and has never had any other partners, was given an STD by her husband after he cheated on her with another woman. Imagine how much more likely this is when the husband (or wife) isn't even attracted to his or her spouse! That is exactly what happened throughout much of history, and until about 100 years ago, it was nearly impossible for a woman to get a divorce, even in a situation like my cousin's where her husband was not only adulterous but irresponsibly adulterous and has now ensured her a lifetime of medical treatment and probably infertility.

      If you bothered to read history, braudboy, you would know that there has never been some shining moral paradise of Christian goodness (or non-Christian goodness either) and that the most sexually prepressive societies also tend to have the most unhealthy methods of coping with the repression. During the Victorian era, for example, when you couldn't even say the word "leg" in polite company and Oscar wilde was sentenced to two years hard labor for sodomy, child prostitution (of children of both sexes) was rampant. In part because of the high rate of out-of-wedlock births and the social stigma of bastardy, there was also a high rate of infanticide. In fact, in England there was an entire cottage industry of people who would take babies from their mothers, for a fee, and quietly neglect them to death. Is this really the kind of "moral" society you want?

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      illustros 8 years ago from Washington, D.C.

      Gay Rights Movements are evident. Their presence and their impact to our present situation cannot be denied. But, at the same time, we need to remember that Freedom is not about doing anything we want. (Or else, to intentionally harm another individual will be a form of expression of freedom as long as you want it.) But, Freedom is a capacity to accept and to do what is good.

      Same-sex marriage is a complex problem. It is not just about religion or civil rights. It's a about a significant change in culture or common/accepted practice of a particular society. Due to its nature, this issue involves almost all aspects of our social and personal life.

      It is still early to say 'Yes or No' to this issue and it still needs to be examined. There must be a middle ground to this argument; and, that's what we, as a society, haven't found yet due some flaws we have on how we are dealing with it.

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      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      I have officially exposed the gay movement as a typical liberal arguement where you name call and attempt to bully your way into winning a losing effort. No explantation is necessary to describe a gay's physical manipulation to pull off any attempt at having sex with a partner who is not fitted for the activity. It is amusing, however, to hear kerrg and livelonger try to explain. And, of course, livelonger, misses the whole point of the debate, as she thinks we are talking about sex behind closed doors, when the "radical gay movement" is ALL about getting acceptance in the public square, and re-writing society's definition of traditional marriage, and redefining the principles of decency, and normal for society. THe ignorance of liberals as they make their arguements are astounding. They are the truly closed-minded people who demand change for their small world and do not care if they destroy the greater good in the process. THey are as spoiled children, having no wisdom or real consequences of their actions, they want to do whatever, without the shame of principles and morals to weigh them down.

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      kerryg 8 years ago from USA

      livelonger, lol, yes! It's not my thing, but I know several straight couples who are really into it. (Women talk much more about sex among ourselves than most men would believe. ;) )

      He and I have been over the harm issue before and he has yet to give me a satisfactory answer for what harm granting equal rights to homosexuals will do to society. I am sure he would say the same of me, but on this one, I am pretty sure history is on my side. Reality has a well known liberal bias. :)

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      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      I love that the ayatollah thinks all gay men use their anuses for sex, and that no heterosexuals do. And what about the lesbians?

      And KerryG - don't expect any explanation of how what two consenting adults of any sexual orientation do behind closed doors hurts people, other than some vague references to the "moral fiber" of society being rendered apart (apparently love and commitment do that).

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      kerryg-the harm comes into play when society is asked to endorse the behavior as normal and give a platform for this absurdity to pollute the morals and principles of the society. YOu,as a liberal fanatic, probably could care less about the integrity of the society and the well being of its citizenry, however, most good stewards of society know that the greater good is much more important than the selfish desires of a few deviants who would destroy the moral fiber of society just to satisfy their perverted lusts. Typical behavior of this "radical gay movement" is to trample all over the decency and principles that society tries to instill, and to try and re-write definitions of institutions and decent behavior so that they can try and convince themselves they are not crazy.

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      kerryg 8 years ago from USA

      This, I think, is one of the fundamental differences between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives base their morality on preconceived notions of what is repellant and "immoral." Liberals base their morality on what causes the greatest harm.

      The Bible says "spare the rod, spoil the child," so many conservative parents I know beat their children with belts when they misbehave. I spank my daughter (2 1/2) when she deserves it, but I do not *beat* her. A sharp smack on the bottom if she is getting out of control says "Hey! Pay attention to me!" and is followed by a timeout to give her the chance to get herself under control. A beating says "Hey! Fear me!" One is a sharp reminder that she needs to get herself under control RIGHT NOW, the other is a lesson that bad behavior only needs to be avoided if there is somebody stronger than you around to catch you.

      Beating my daughter would teach her sneakiness and resentment, and would do more harm than good to her character and our relationship. Allowing her to run wild would be equally harmful in the opposite way - I am not interested in raising a little monster who thinks the world should be handed to her on a silver platter. Spanking, followed by a timeout period to quiet her down, is a happy medium that encourages her to develop positive skills of self-discipline.

      Likewise, you are correct that I *could* use my hands to beat my husband, but what benefit could this possibly give to our relationship? In contrast, there are a number of Biblical passages that are used as justification for the practice of wife beating, and some conservative Christians view it as A-OK as a result. Are you familiar with the "Christian Domestic Discipline" movement? http://www.christiandd.com/

      If two adult men want to use their anuses for consensual sex, what possible harm does it do me, or society at large?

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Wow! Can you feel the love from the "radical gay movement" crowd! I love to expose the hypocracy! Well, there is not much to say here. You can read the previous comments and evaluate for yourselves the futile attempts to make sense of this abnormal behavior called "gay sex"! We can start with kerryg, who thinks that man, in all his perfect wonder and complexity, was not created by an awesome God...but, instead, somehow, emerged from the swamps as some lower organism and evolved into the specimen we have today. Then, kerrg goes on to give examples that mouths and hands have several functions, so why not the anus??? This is brilliant stuff. By this logic, we could say that our hands might have a primary function of grabbing objects, but they can also be use to spank our children on the buttocks. Therefore, liberals must be wrong on the whole time out thing as spankings seem a normal function for our hands. Also , the hand comes in handy in slapping our spouse across the cheek when needed. kerryg must be endorsing this as she is noting the different functions of our body parts and thinking we need not examine the validity of their uses.

      It does come down to this, when referring to the liberals, as they take on a cause against society. THey act as little children, whining and crying and behaving in such a loud manner as to demand society's attention. THese children are, of course very immature and lacking in substance and reason, but they often get their way, only because society wants to silence them and not because they have any merit to their actions.

      Queenie- I speak of the design of man, not reptiles. And if you want statistics of how American feel about gay marriage, I have election results in at leat 11 states that tell you....hell no, we dont want gay marriage.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      OK, Braudboy! I found another stats since you feel this one is biased because we are all kerryg's fans. I copied and pasted it below...

      Forty-two percent of Americans now say same sex couples should be allowed to legally marry, a new CBS News/New York Times poll finds. That's up nine points from last month, when 33 percent supported legalizing same sex marriage.Support for same sex marriage is now at its highest point since CBS News starting asking about it in 2004. Twenty-eight percent say same sex couples should have no legal recognition – down from 35 percent in March – while 25 percent support civil unions, but not marriage, for gay couples.

      According to your precious stats, it looks like you are out numbered, Pal! In the even that you would like to visit this website, you may do so via this link.

      http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/27/politics/p...

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Livelonger you wrote:

      braudboy is our resident ayatollah.

      Iamqweenbee writes:  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha chuckles chuckles tehhehheh tehhehheh teeheehee teeheehee! :-0 Too funny! thanks for the laughter

    • livelonger profile image

      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      braudboy is our resident ayatollah.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      jewlledpen ,

      Stick aound long enough, Braudboy will say about 5000 more things you won't like or agree with. He ususally takes the indignant route to viewing things/people. HOwever, you have to enjoy his comments because they are comical.

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      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Also Braudboy, since you say the words " obvious design" there are some species of reptiles that can reproduce without male and female. So, the "obvious design" male and female theory is out the window there.

    • kerryg profile image
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      kerryg 8 years ago from USA

      "obvious design" really says it all. We weren't "designed," we evolved, and evolution comes with built in redundancy.

      Yes, natural reproduction among humans and other higher organisms requires one male set of genitalia and one female set of genitalia. However, penis and vagina are not the ONLY sexual organs.

      The primary function of women's breasts is breastfeeding but I would be astonished if you had never caressed your wife's breasts during sex. The primary function of the mouth is eating and breathing, but if you have never kissed your wife, I will eat my hat. The primary function of hands is holding and manipulating objects but they also hold and manipulate your wife pretty well, don't they? And the anus, though it's primary purpose is obviously excretion, just happens to have a male equivalent of the G-spot.

      All of these parts can and are combined in new and interesting ways by many heterosexual couples during sex, despite the fact that they were not "designed" for sexual purposes. Even among many higher animals, sex is at much about pleasure as reproduction, and sexual release without reproduction is commonly sought, especially among animals like humans that live in social groups. Hence the frequency of homosexual and bisexual behavior in bonobos, dolphins, lions, and many other higher order social mammals.

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      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Braudboy,

      Sorry to upset you dear, but, wasn't it YOU who thought stats to be so important?  Now, that you don't like the results of this poll, you think it must be flawed in some way. See how unfair you are?!

      I don't know Kerryg. I just particiapted in the poll using my own opinion. Kinda like the way you are voicing your monstrous opinion w/o knowing Kerryg.

      I notice right before you open mouth and insert foot, you always start your posts with phrases like...you sound ridiculous or don't be so sensitive. Not realizing that is how you sound.

      Anyway, since stats are usually viewed as proof by you, then this stat should tell you alot (quoting you)...and that is as I said earlier, which is everyone does not share your sentiments.

      Finally, you got it!!! Or let me rephrase...its about time you were able to comprehend something!

      Now, let's see if you can comprehend this...since you also speak so much of morality, then you have a moral responsibility to be humane to gays/lesbians or else all that morality hogwash you've been spewing was done in vain. Let me rephrase again...How can you talk about being moral, when you are not really practicing it? Hypocritical, if you ask me. Your morals should also be applied in the way you treat others.

      By the way, nice picture of the baby.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      kerrg- You sound ridiculous as you try to refute nature and the obvious design of man and woman. The real sadness comes from those such as yourselves that try to give credibility to insanity. You do no one any favors as you encourage behavior that is not only destructive to society, but denies those involved from experiencing the "true" love that comes from natural design. In that love they will find much more satisfaction in finding a true soul mate and the awesome experience of children. THis will produce the love that the "gay world" is missing and can never find as they wander lost.

    • kerryg profile image
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      kerryg 8 years ago from USA

      "properly informed"?

      Considering your utter dismissal of peer reviewed science about the biological basis of homosexuality, that's pretty hilarious. The world does not always fit neatly into the little box created by a literal interpretation of a book written 3000 years ago for a bunch of shepherds who thought the sun revolved around the earth and stoning an appropriate form of execution for all sorts of things most modern people do every day.

      It doesn't even fit into James's precious New Covenant, which conveniently allows people to enjoy pork chops and cheeseburgers, but not to spend their lives with the person they love if that person happens to be of the same sex.

      The depth of your denial would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      kerryg- dont be so sensitive. THe point I was making is that your fans were reading your hub and likely, they have similar views. I am just commenting on the evident lack of accuracy of such a poll based on the small number and the likely simlar view point of most that are reading your hubs. ....and, you are exactly right that if they did not read the comments and get properly informed by my comments and a few others who try to shine light on this nonsense, they probably did vote in favor of gay marriage.

    • kerryg profile image
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      kerryg 8 years ago from USA

      I didn't "muster" anybody. The poll is there. Anybody who reads the hub has the opportunity to vote on it and in between search engine traffic and hubbers who found the hub via Hubtivity and the Hot Hubs section, I would guess a considerable majority of the people who've read this hub don't know me from Adam.

      Granted, people who actually READ the hub instead of immediately skipping down to comments to inform me that all gays are immoral deviants might have been more likely to vote...

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Queenie- Wow! YOu mean Kerryg's fans supported her same sex marriage poll! THat tells me alot. THere is no doubt that Kerryg can muster a majority of her fans to support the cause. I am not impressed.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Hey Braudboy,

      Since you like stats so much...considering the poll on this blog, the percentage of people who supports same sex marriage is higher than those who oppose it. Read it and weep! lol.

      Do you support same sex marriage?54% Yes 46% No 0% I haven't made up my mind

      46 people have voted in this poll.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      jewlledpen- Sorry....it is one man's opinion, but the liberal movement has given us affirmative action, global warming, gay rights, god taken out of schools and in most public arenas, ACLU, abortion, and the list just keeps going on.

    • jewlledpen profile image

      jewlledpen 8 years ago

      One more thing, braudboy, I have really appreciated your comments until I heard the line "liberals destroy America" because not only is it untrue but the statement actually goes against conservative belief. When creating the constitution there were many different sides to many different issues. Coming to a compromise after hours and hours of debate is what made it so strong, we need liberals and conservatives to prevent rash decision, it is good to have an opposing opinion, otherwise their crucial points might never be addressed.

    • jewlledpen profile image

      jewlledpen 8 years ago

      Let's see if we can bring some light into this little debate, Let's look at what the issue is really about.  You can sit here and argue about whether or not gay marriage is getting a lot of votes but it's a waist of time because popularity isn't the issue. The points are most clearly stated as,

      Pro Gay Marriage: 

      1 Freedom, simply stated, it is a person's right to be married straight or otherwise  

      2 It is discrimination to disallow gay marriage.                                                                                                                     

      Con:

        1  Religion :  Promoting gays is promoting sin

        2  Marriage by definition is between a man and woman

        While there are other smaller points we can debate about, that is the gist of it.  The problem with the argument is either side is in a totally different argument.  The conservatives are battling right form wrong, the liberals an argument of freedom.  Both are very noble points.  This country is founded on strong principles of freedom- right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, so we should be able to marry whomever we choose, right?  Well, when our country was founded, it was done so on strong Christian values also, and whether we like it or not, that is our history.  Those values of honesty, kindness, love, responsibility have strengthened our country and the people.  At the same time this religion looks at gay action as a sin, just like it looks at adultery, and fornication.  We can't expect a religion to support what they believe to be sin.  

      Mosaic Law states: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death."  

       It is a valid Christian belief, but they don't have the right to force their beliefs on others,  Although marriage itself is very plainly a man-woman thing, according to all definition, maybe a good compromise would be right to civil union.        

    • profile image

      B-Zilla 8 years ago

      Facts are facts are facts. Numbers don't lie for anything.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      livelonger- it is you who do not understand and turn a blind eye to the obvious. We are talking about men and women here and not some third groug who needs some revision of the marriage laws. Our society has a definition of marriage and it involves a man and a woman. YOu are the one suggesting that we need some third group added to the definition. It is typical liberal behavior to try and throw out the rules of orderly society and to make up new rules as we go along. It is a long journey to set up a decent society and a very quick one to tear it down. Liberals have done a great job of destroying America's society, but I think a line has been drawn, finally, by the silent majority, to put a stop to this nonsense when it comes to marriage.

      ...and you have debunked nothing when you try and find some "gay friendly" poll to keep up the spirits of a lost cause. This "gay" nonsense was just defeated in California, of all places!!!! The most liberal and gay friendly state in the union, turned down the gay marriage proposal, and rightly so. I believe 11 other states have also turned it down at the voting booth. The gay agenda has won nothing at the ballot box. That is the most accurate poll you can take. Sorry!

    • profile image

      B-Zilla 8 years ago

      1. I'm just wondering...I've read in the Bible about marriage and the overall meaning that I got out of it is for a man and a woman. I was just wondering if anyone had an example from the Bible (as early of a copy as possible, just to get the real meaning [Aramaic would work best]) of a man/man or woman/woman marriage. Or if not, maybe some passages where God said gay relationships are ok. I'm just wondering, not trying to bash. I just like proof.

      2. Also, if I wanted to hold a parade about wanting to walk around naked, would I have many supporters? I mean its just the human body and there are naturally only 2 possibilities. The majority of the country would say its wrong but my little group of people would feel like everyone else is just being a bigot to our needs as individuals to roam the world naked. I don't remember anywhere in the Bible where God said it was wrong to live life butt naked in society. I mean the big issue is the children, isnt it? We wouldn't want to harm to children. But maybe if we show them at a young age what everyone looks like naked, and people walked around naked, this could desensitize them and it would be okay. Sure its against Human Law, but its not against Religious Law. If we can change a Religious Law to accomidate those who feel like its necessary to allow gay marriage, then it shouldnt be too difficult to change Human Law.

      3. I'm not saying gays are wrong (but I'm not saying gays are right either), because right/wrong is entirely perspective and no one person should be allowed to say whether anything is right or wrong and it be so. I'm just saying that if GLBT supporters want the respect and consideration from the government, and to a lesser extent, the heterosexual movement supporters, they need to give respect and consideration back. Respect is something earned, not given. If gays want the government and everyone else to back off and give them the right to be together and recognized as a binded couple then they should be rewarded for their love together, but if it hurts someone else (like what many Christians here have stated about a sacred union between man and woman) then don't call it marriage. Call it a civil union, a legal partnership, or a bond between soul mates or something other than marriage. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Gays should be allowed to be together, but why the name marriage if it hurts other people? It's still the same union between partners. Just call it something else.

      4. I'm pro-love. Let those in love have their way, but nothing is worth hurting someone else. There's no justification in doing so.

      Sneakorocksolid was right though, numbers are fun!

    • livelonger profile image

      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      We are speaking a different language when it comes to sexual orientation and it goes beyond your gender preference. Ah well, the disparaging way you describe homosexuality every time you mention it suggests you'll never understand that because you don't want to.

      At any rate, to debunk your "Americans overwhelmingly are opposed to gay marriage and that will never change":http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/06/gay-marriag...

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Once again, you misspeak. You are trying to give rights to a "behavior" and this is impossible. Those participating in the deviant activity of "gay sex" are still men and women. There is no 3rd category. I never hear of gays fighting for their own status in the area of public restroom. I have seen the mens room and I have seen the womens room, but I have not seen the gay room. HOw do they choose which restroom to go in, as they seem to suggest they are not either men or women. Of course they are men and women, ....very confused men and women, I might add.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Livelonger- what world are living in that shows clear majorities support this gay agenda. YOu have twisted everything around. If you are talking about the rights for gays to get a job, or buy a house, or do whatever else in the realm of normalcy, of course you have clear majorities that support normal behavior. When it comes to gays trying to re-write our marriage laws and rewrite the definition of words like "marriage", "husband", and "wife", and trying to force society to accept their sexual deviancy as normal, you clearly do NOT have the support of the majority of society. Since when did you think we were talking about anything else.

    • livelonger profile image

      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      I should add that the definition of a democratic vote was understood universally, for millenia, to be that of a man. Of course, people "radically" changed this timeworn definition, much to the chagrin of people who resisted this. Reading this, it's clear the arguments of those fighting progress can sound similar, no matter what form of equality they're fighting:

      http://www.learncalifornia.org/doc.asp?id=1646

    • livelonger profile image

      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      Well, as long as you continue insulting me and others who disagree with you, I'll simply remark that I find it amusing that a 70-year-old is using a moniker with the word "boy" in it.

      You use very dramatic language to convey the fact that you think homosexuality is a choice, that it's wrong, and that gays/lesbians have a sinister agenda. The fact that science has properly studied this and is clear that it is a widely-observed, natural condition that exists in a minority of members of over 1,000 species doesn't seem to faze you. You continue to spout off about morality and decency like an ayatollah, when more and more people are realizing that treating gay people like human beings is the moral and decent thing to do. In fact, clear majorities in this country believe gays/lesbians should be entitled to equal rights under the law; the only sticking point for some is the term 'marriage.'

      I'm currently reading a book on the history of Jews (My People, by Abba Eban) and am now approaching the 19th century, when Jews were finally given equal legal status after living in the Western world for millenia. Of course, anti-Semitism was (and is) still strong, people argued against equality for Jews, and accused them of being wicked and sinister, and said that they had never been considered equal under the law before. Many cited "science" claiming Jews were genetically inferior. They also accused Jews of working towards a sinister agenda to take over the world and eat the blood of Christian children (among other sensational accusations). Fortunately, attitudes like these ceased to be the majority opinion in most developed countries, as is yours now. Fight it all you want with whatever nonsense arguments you have; reason, understanding and *true* morality and human decency will eventually prevail.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      sneakorocksolid, Braudboy, and james

      I just thought about something

      Since all of you claim that I am all over the place...that is usually typical when you blog and communicate with someone you do not agree with. they might catch glimpses of what you wrote, while not trying to read all of it. I've done it and made misinterpretations, too.

      So to help you out ONE MORE TIME, When any of you address the gay parade... I elaborated on the importance of the gay parade, when any of you talk about bad behavior...I elaborated that gays aren't the only community who do bad things...when bigot came up...I elaborated on how BB can be perceived as a bigot. I have read 59000 invalid reasons why gays should not marry and I address every reason given to me to shoot them down. Then you guys complained I was all over the place. Its one of the typical word games that happens on blogs. I have seen it too many times and it usually happens among people who do not agree. lol

      sneakorocksolid , you said you read my posts over and over. Maybe you need to read all the posts. That's the only way you will know if I was in response to something and what. Just reading my posts and not the entire conversation would mean that you are missing something, right? And you say I am on a roller coaster ride? Whatever the case may be, I acquired your attention. I am just tired of going in circles because it seems I am saying the same things over and over. We are covering no new ground. It does not matter if I rephrase it and tell it different, then you guys play that other popular blog game and say I am inconsistent. Hell, I rephrased it because it didn't seem you understood me the first time. Or if I use analogies, then I am leaving planet earth. But you guys can attack, threaten, and the whole nine. All that takes the fun out of blogging. So have at it. Braudboy, we were really having a healthy debate. I am not sure what happened. lol

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      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Queeneie- it is funny as you say that you make valid points, but we dont comprehend as it gets lost in the translation. It is probably because it is hard to comprehend or translate the jibberish and double-speak that you and livelonger are spouting.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      livelonger- Here is the point you are missing as you look over the vast expanse of human history. You want it to be about discrimination...but it is clearly not. Let me explain again,....and again I will go slow. Here is the definition of marriage "The state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual or contractual relationship recognized by law. "The social institution under which a man and a woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc. " THe legal or religiouis ceremony that formalizes the decision of a man and a woman to live as husband and wife."

      OK, now lets look at the definition of "wife" "A female partner in a marriage" "A woman joined in marriage to a man". Ok, now lets take a look at the definition of husband."A married man, when considered in relation to his wife"

      THese are 3 of the key words involved....and word DO have meaning. These words have had meaning througout the vast expanse of human history. IT is clear that society adopted and developed these meanings to implement the clear order of man and womans purpose on this earth. Marriage does not discriminate, but clearly defines its purpose and place in society. It is the union of a man and woman. The gay agenda is a clear assault on this long standing institution and attempts to re-write the definition of at least 3 words in our dictionary, not to mention trying to re-write the principles of decency, morality, and common sense. As you sign on to this assault on sanity, you venture into uncharted waters where society begins to break down and words have no meaning anymore. It is a clear attack on society's order and their founding principles. This is unacceptable. There is no discrimination here, as marriage is open to all men and women....but it also has a definition and a meaning that cant be distorted and contorted to fit the whims of unnatural behavior.

    • livelonger profile image

      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      iamqweenbee: Likewise! The fact is reason and compassion eventually win over injustice and prejudice over the course of human history. It's sad to see their arguments get more and more ridiculous. I'm waiting for braud"boy" to tell us gays shouldn't marry because an angel told him so while he slept at night.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Qeenie- OK, lets be done with it. ANd, I have some good news for you and people who participate in gay activity. THe good news is this. After reviewing the definition of marriage, I see an avenue that is available to those who claim to be gay. Any gay man could certainly marry any gay woman of his choosing (as long as she chose him as well). Problem solved. Gays get their marriage and marriage is not re-defined. Well, I am glad to help.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Livelonger,

      Hang in there! You are doing an awesome job and making very valid points. Some things they won't comprehend because they are lost in translation.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      sneakorocksolid  you wrote:

      Dearest I'm always on topic(Queenbee), I've spent some time reviewing your comments and its an interesting rollercoaster ride.

      iamqweenbee writes: yeah, you said that before! You can talk about someone on a roller coaster ride, huh? At least I don't leave blank messages. LOL. Hey, pass that stuff your smoking.

      Braudboy,

      I am through with this blog. I have said what I meant so many times that we are going in circles. Time to get off this merry go round. Still I am in support of gay marriages, though. That said, have to find another blog. I said all I could. Even said it 50 times over and said it different ways and you still don't get it. Can't get any simpler.

      It was nice talking to you. Meet me on another blog

    • livelonger profile image

      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      James - You're changing your basis for argument. But okay, let's look at the vast expanse of human history then, instead of the Christian Bible. For the vast majority of history, women were not allowed to vote where there was a democratic tradition. Were the first women suffragists in the 20th century, who defied millenia of tradition and "case law", supporting a radical agenda that we have collectively regretted since?

      Looking at the countries that legalized voting for women, it reads broadly similar order to those that are legalizing marriage for same-sex couples:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage#Ti...

    • James A Watkins profile image

      James A Watkins 8 years ago from Chicago

      livelonger— You are right. I am willing to let 6000 years of case law precedent stand, hoping the billions and billions of humans who inhabited this planet before also had wisdom. Especially collective wisdom.

    • profile image

      sneakorocksolid 8 years ago

      Dearest I'm always on topic(Queenbee), I've spent some time reviewing your comments and its an interesting rollercoaster ride. Lets start with Hubs topic' support gay marriage, support religious freedom.' Queenbee lets examine your contributions:(I'm going to use numbers and it is truly exciting!)

      1. 9 days ago you said you supported gay marriage you never once mentioned its possible affects on religious freedom. Let them be happy you said let them marry. You never once stated what the true definition of marriage is so you leave us to suppose your proposing a Bible rewrite and a reconfiguration of the definition. Still you say its their right but you never once mention that for this to happen we have to rethink religious freedom.

      2. 4days ago you took off on your AIDS rant, followed by the problems in straight marriages, rounding the corner with government creating laws, homosexual lifestyles and you finished with the attack of the bigots. Wow! You move fast! You're right AIDS is here Merry Christmas! I believe that it started in Africa, however; I believe researchers have pinpointed it to a French(homosexual) flight crew and a party at a beach house. Gays, I concede, have no more or no less problems than straights in relationships. The laws are in place and they recognize marriage as a legal relationship between a man and a women. I believe the Bible and most churches recognize the same. So, we now have to examine the Bible rewrite to be more inclusive and I just don't think God gave us permission to change the definition of marriage. As for the laws, as long homosexuals abide by the law and follow the rule of law while working to either change the law or find a place for themselves. This also brings back the question of civil unions. Gays and their supporters, Queenbee, know that the term marriage is something we hold sacred. Why not leave our beliefs alone while you exercise your rights and settle for a civil union that assures gay rights. Gays and their supporters have to try to compromise our beliefs in a selfish attempt to ruin our view of marriage. You also stated it is a sexual lifestyle thus its a choice they chose their direction they knew the score so now they want us to validate their choice and if we don't we're bigots?

      3. also four days ago you wrote a bunch of reasons why gays would and do make as good of parents as straights. Now I'm not sure how that ties into the topic but ok. Making a devious sex practice legitimate is a very dangerous path. Would you if it leads to other perverse behaviors being accepted as normal be willing to fight to reverse your position and if so how would you fix the damage? To accept those possible outcomes would mean that religious freedoms would have to be compromised. So how would gay marriage in this situation work to support religious freedom? You also said it might be good to desensitize children to a gay lifestyle so it would reduce bigotry because they would consider it normal. You know Queenbee that sounds like indoctrination to me what do you think? Now lets explore religious freedom vs. gay rights in our schools. Well this is a moot point because religion has all but been banned in public schools while gay lifestyles are being introduced as normal. The entry you made closed with closed minded adults would that be for religion or gay rights as far as our schools are concerned.

      4. two days ago you also mentioned judging gays, gay marriage would be no different, activists, taxes, normal families, and boundaries on behavior. I'm not real bright and I'm certainly not on your level of understanding human nature but help me how do these points strengthen religious freedom? You do have point on judging but doesn't every decision we make based on a judgement? I'm not sure but I think Jesus said love thy neighbor and wouldn't that apply to everyone including those with a different opinion? Now lets talk proposition 8. Did the people of California speak on the issue ? So it was done, and its what the majority in one of the most liberal states in this country said. Now how was the behavior of the losers, not so good. In fact it was kind of violent, kind of illegal, and kind of in poor taste. You know I never heard a Mormon disparage a gay in public but I know we can't say the same for the law abiding, normal, peace loving, parenting experts, and moral superstars on the gay side of the debate. Hmmmm! I wonder how that works?

      6. 26 hours ago you made references to communication skills I'm trying real hard to figure how that plays into this Hub. You were chastising some one for their lack of control during a heated conversation. What topic were you addressing then? I know its very awkward to talk to someone who lives in Kum-bayah -land because they base they're position on feelings. Whoa, whoa, whoa feeeelings! The position that if we all gave each other a big hug everything would be all right is fantasy. The Sixties and Seventies proved that that's why all those peace loving people rioted.

      7.19 hours ago you accused me of issueing threats..................WHAT?! Where in anything I've written do you read threat? That sounds more like the people you stand for, If you don't support our position we'll, we'll, we'll make a big mess and you'll have to clean it up, so there!

      8. 8hrs ago you made reference to pro-choice and I just can't find the relationship between gay marriage and religious freedom. I understand your declaration I don't understand the relevance.

      9. 6 hour ago you gave reasons for protests and why not. Well lets see if you hurt someone or damage they're property then I think that's about where your rights legally stop. So lets review these outstanding citizens who are not given they're rights to a vote are only acting out for religious freedom.

      10.3 hours ago you made the same reference that it doesn't hurt anyone if gays marry. It tears at the fabric that is this society. This country was founded on Judea-Christian values and now we say it won't hurt anything how can you possibly attack religious values and not say it won't have an affect? The reality is you and the supporters don't care who it hurts as long as you get your way. The breakdown of religious rights are next because if churches don't participate they will either be threatened with loss of tax status or law suits. How will that increase religious freedom? If that is the out come how are you going to explain it to the people who are faithful and religious? Look out religious fools there's a new sheriff in town!

      Well I believe I've demonstrated the flaws in your position. I know you won't change your opinion but at least with a quick review you'll see where my examples come from and they prove you argue like a drunk driver. I wish you the best Queenbee maybe we'll cross paths on another Hub we can agree upon. Peace.

    • Koby profile image

      Koby 8 years ago from Ohio

      I wish i could join the fray, but there are simply too many comments to read in order to get a good feel for each established position and counterarguement and so on and so forth.

      I hereby nominate kerryg as my mouthpiece. Don't dissapoint me.

    • Koby profile image

      Koby 8 years ago from Ohio

      I wish i could join the fray, but there are simply too many comments to read in order to get a good feel for each established position and counterarguement and so on and so forth.

      I hereby nominate kerryg as my mouthpiece. Don't dissapoint me.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      No queenie- You said society should have no say in anything people do as long as they are not hurting anyone. I merely pointed out that you make no sense and I made you look foolish.  ...oh and queenie, if you dont think children are not curious or dont ask questions when a situtation comes to the public square like this subject has...(force on us by the radical gay agenda)....well, then you must not have any children.  This gay nonsense is already in TV shows, movies, books, and other areas of our lives. 

      oh, and queenie, while I am pointing out the numerous misstatements you make, here is another correction.  Our society does not decide who marries whom, it only defines marriage as any other word has a definition.  Marriage is the union of one man and one woman.  Other than a few stipulations concerning age and immediate family ( I guess you dont want this either as you seem to think you can make marriage anything you want), You are free to marry any person of the opposite sex supposing you get them to reciprocate.  It is a very simple formula that has been around for more than a thousand years. 

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      sneakorocksolid  you wrote:

      Iamqweenbee writes: speechless?

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Braudboy,

      I reiterate, I DO NOT AGREE THAT SOCIETY SHOULD HAVE A SAY ON WHO SHOULD MARRY WHOM!!! Take from that what you will, I spelled it out as plain as I could. You are the one that keep talking about all that other stuff.

      How can I be inconsistent in how I want society to perform its duties when I NEVER stated what I think society should do except not decide who should get married. DUH! No one should have a say in matters of the heart. We don't have arranged marriages here in the USA. We are free to love and should be free to marry whomever.

      How would children know of such unnatural sex? Are you now stating that gays will allow children to see them? Isn't that going a bit too far? I think I posted a comment about censhorship. I talked to my children about gays/lesbians and they have an open-mind about it. They will ultimately be faced with this issue anyway, therefore, they learned about it at home in the way I wanted them to learn. My children were taught not to hate anyone because of color, sexual preference, faith, etc. I taught my children to judge by the content of one's character. Sometimes, the parents have to step in and be parents and not get angry when a child see something or hear something they shouldn't have. Its all out there is this world we live in. Somethings should just be talked about with the parents because you cannot shelter them from everything. Someone, somewhere would introduce something to a child. BUt if a parent already instilled in them, the child will usually be fine. What about internet predators? Thats more of a concern because these people do not care and is more than willing to force their sexual fantasies on children...and they are out there at LARGE!!!

      You keep talking about their behavior as though they are children and as though straight people don't display bad behavior. I would see your point if you at least tried to be fair about making it.

      You heard that saying...an unjust law is not a law at all. Well, I think an unfair statement is not a valid statement. So far, all your remarks have been unfair, unjust, and totally unfounded.

      There are gay doctors, gay lawyers, gay reverends, etc. they contribute to society so why can't we allow them their rights? Lets use your own analogies...what about the gay people who don't show public displays of effection, no nudity, etc. do you still feel they shouldn't marry?

    • profile image

      sneakorocksolid 8 years ago

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Queenie- you said that society had no business telling people what to do if they were not hurting anyone! How does nudity hurt anyone????The fact is that you do agree that society does have an obligation to regulate some bahaviors. How does nudity affect children???? Well, you are right, nudity does affect children, and similarly it affects children to send confusing messages about unnatural sex. You are very inconsistent in how you want society to perform its duties. YOu spin your wheels argueing the wrong points. Let me go slow. The gay agenda is not about men and women having the freedom to have their perverted sex. It is about these men and women demanding and shouting that society recognize their activity as normal and trying to gain a place of prominence in the public square. It is about these individuals trying to re-write the laws of marriage and decency and forcing their upside down world on everyone. Queenie, once again, they are not a 3rd gender....these are men and women. It is the behavior and the bullying of society to accept their behavior that is being rejected.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Braudboy,

      You seem to have the attitude that people should have a say on gays marrying.  You keep traveling on me. We are  not talking about nudity, we are talking about gay marriages.  Nudity is quite different than gays marrying. AGAIN, gays marrying does not effect anyone. You said it yourself. Nudity can effect children and others. As far as having sex out in public, I do not agree, but, straight people do that, too. You keep talking about gay behavior which is nothing short of what straight people do. Yes, society should stop nudity and sex in public but not gay marriages.

      Moral and decent people also don't judge anyone. I am not the morality and decency police. I cannot stop every indecent and immoral act and neither can you.

      Bottom line...when I see another person doing something immoral or indecent I usually mind my own business if no one is hurt or negatively effected. Or else I will be spending a great deal of time dealing with that if I did something about it.There are far too many indecent and immoral people and many of them are STRAIGHT.

      Wasn't that the basis of my argument the whole time? I try not to worry about small stuff and I pick and choose my fights. Gay marriages is not a fight I choose to partake in because I am not against them and they have a right to choose like everyone else. Choosing to marry does not effect anyone, therefore, is not a concern for me. I am glad they stick up for themselves. Don't you and I have the right to choose who we marry? When we got married was nudity, sex in public, and etc a stipulation? No! So, out of fairness why should it be for the gay community? You might say marriage is for a man and a woman, but, considering the divorce rate, it doesn't look like its working out for straight people. Hell, if gays want to marry, its their choice, let them make their own choices. They don't need us to supervise them like little children and make decisions for them.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Queenie, you seem to have the attitude that people should be allowed to do whatever behavior and society has no right to intrude on these behaviors.

      So, I guess you are in favor of allowing public nudity. I mean what would it hurt if people walked around in public in the nude. Is this really hurting anyone??? What about even having sex out in public??? I mean, if it feels good and no one is getting hurt, why should society have any say in stopping this behavior.

      Of course this is not the case, because moral and decent people realized this is unacceptable behavior. These same people also realize the unacceptable behavior involved with gay sex. Queenie, you make no sense as you try to support a cause that has no merits. Society certainly does have every right to monitor and restrict certain behaviors for the common good of the society. ...and society is not preventing what ever goes on in their bedroom, that is not what is being debated. DO you even know what is being debated here. It is the public declaration of normalcy and the re-writing of society's decency and normalcy. If two consenting adults want to engage in a depraved activity, they certainly can do so. What they cannot do is get society to agree that this is normal behavior. This cannot be done without turning common sense on its head. Queenie, you are standing on your head.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      James you wrote:

      Yes, divorce is a sin except in cases of adultery. That is why you don't see parades for divorcees.

      Iamqweenbee writes:

      That's is true about the divorce, but, if divorcees did parade about it, what's wrong with that? They do need to make stricter divorce laws if they will make stricter marriage laws

      Especially since its a sin to divorce

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      sneakorocksolid,

      I don't have to do all of that. My posts are understood enough that they have your attention, as well as, replies. Since you have a hard time sticking to the subject, I am inclined to believe you might be suffering with A.D.D which is attention deficit disorder.

      Now, when you say I am all over the place...that's typical too! At least I am on topic and have not steered away from it. You might not agree with me, but, I am still on topic and making my position on this subject clear. I don't have to resort to attacks because I respect your opinion, as well as, the opinions of others. I have been called names because I do not agree, but, I am still here making my claim. :-)

       If you want to comment about my character, then I suggest you create another blog and we can talk about my character until the cows come home. However, on this blog we are discussing gay marriages. If you have nothing left to add but attacks then our conversation is over. OK? Thanks Hon!

      Now, forgive me while I return to the topic of discussion. ;-)

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      James,

      That is not what I meant. I said what I meant and there is truth in it. Do you agree that there should be racial equality? If your answer is yes...I can go even further and say I believe there should be equality based on sexual preference. The point I made is clear...straight people have problems and so do gays. straight people have issues and so do gays. therefore, no group is better than the other that would mean one group deserve to have more rights. Sorry you misunderstood that, but any person who has a handle on life would agree if they are being fair. You are looking at the body parts in all this while I am looking at the fairness.

      What a klepto or sadomasochism does is different from that of gay marriages.  What they do actually effects people in a negative way. How does gay marriages effect people in a negative way? Even Braudboy admits gays do not effect him. These are criminal acts you are comparing to a lifestyle. There is no crime in living the gay life, however, the crime is in stealing from others, giving alcohol to minors, etc. Apples and oranges, my dear!

      Blacks had a parade on civil rights. Some felt, at that time, the same as you feel about the gay parade, but, it helped with the civil rights movement. This movement was set up so that blacks could have equal rights. They put the problem out front as it should be so that others can recognize it. I see nothing wrong with a parade for gay rights. Now, if pedophiles set up a parade, then there is something wrong with that. Who would actually support a parade designed for people who molest children? However, a parade for certain rights that should be granted is totally different.

      If you've never fought for anything you believe in, then you would not understand all that it entails. Parades is a good way. We had a parade here in a fight against police brutality. We protested and paraded and it got attention. Some was negative, whereas, some was positive. Whatever the case, we succeeded in getting attention. In getting attention, you recruit others who share your sentiments, as your strength lies in numbers. I applaud the gay community for fighting for what they believe in.

      I am not worrying about their body parts touching because I don't have to see it. I won't be in the bedroom with them...and what goes on in someone's bedroom is private and their own business. I cannot live my life concerned about what's in someone else's bedroom. That would make me nosy! Besides, I have my own bedroom life to be concerned with.

      I don't care what they do, either and do not want them hurt either. I also don't think they are demanding anything but equal rights. This is America and everyone has the right to protest. So, now we want to take that right away from them, too?

      Heck, if we protested abortion, there would be people who do not agree saying, "I wish they would stop forcing their views on us" Does that make them right? NO! That is the beauty of this country...being able to freely speak and protest.

      Sorry I just don't agree. However, I do agree with what you said about divorce

       

    • profile image

      sneakorocksolid 8 years ago

      Queenbee I'm sorry you suffer from the 'selective reading syndrome.' You're all over the map with your opinions so it is hard to understand what you're on about. I've drawn this conclusion after reading and rereading your entries. Here's a suggestion, write down all your thoughts examine them to make sure they are valid and relevant. Then when you're sure about what you want to say then publish. As far as Gay marriage is concerned I've made my position quite clear on this Hub. Just so there's no misunderstanding, Giving homosexuals the right to marry is an insult to the institution that's cherished by so many. Gays have the right to exist but privately. Now a more pressing issue where did the numbers go? Peace.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      OK! Reading some of the posts, I gather that maybe I didn't make myself clear. Since it keep coming back that gay marriages is immoral...allow me to expand.

      I am pro-choice! Except when it comes to abortion then I am pro-life, as life supercedes choice.

      I believe that everyone has the right to make their own choice. The only time society has a right to interfere with the choices that people make is when a person is committing a crime or hurting others in any way. Gays marrying is not an instance of that.

      Now, if we want to look at it from a religious point of view...God gives us the opportunity to choose for ourselves. If we make the wrong choice, there are consequences. If we make the right choice, we will be blessed. Whatever the case, He gives us the opportunity to choose for ourselves and so shall we give others the same opportunity. Heck, some of the choices we make as straight people others might deem as uncouth.

      We may not always agree with what the next person chooses to do, but, we also should not judge or ridicule them. That, in itself is a sin.  If someone does wrong and we judge them, then two wrongs don't make a right.

      I truly believe that the gay community has the right to live their life, make their choices, and be happy. These are common rights given to all. I am not going to put myself out there to stop any person from doing what they choose because I acknowledge they should be able to make their own choices.

      No one truly knows what our Supreme Being feels about the gay community. We do know He loves them, too. There are many straight people doing immoral things to put a stipulation on the gay community. When we close our eyes to that, we are saying it is alright for straight people to be immoral, however, the ultimate sin is if gays are immoral.

      The Supreme being knows our hearts. Being gay won't make the Supreme Being turn His back on us.

      Gays/Lesbians are people, too and we have to ackowledge them as people and expect for them the same rights, choices, and priviledges. Also, we can expect from them the same as everyone else.

    • livelonger profile image

      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      But divorce is still 100% legal (except in religiously observant countries like the Philippines) and you don't seem to be making any attempt to make it illegal (except, you say, in the case of adultery).

    • James A Watkins profile image

      James A Watkins 8 years ago from Chicago

      Yes, divorce is a sin except in cases of adultery. That is why you don't see parades for divorcees.

    • James A Watkins profile image

      James A Watkins 8 years ago from Chicago

      queen— your difficulty understanding the reality of life is right there in these simple words you said: "Gays are no different than straight individuals. We all have issues, problems, etc."

      There are two things about this statement that show a blindness to reality.  For anyone to say, presumably with a straight face, that there is no difference between man/woman love, with body parts that fit together for the perpetuation of our species—and two people with the same body parts borders on insanity.

      Second, yes we all have problems.  But YOU miss the point about that.  Nobody else is having parades and asking for special rights because of their problems.  There is no parade for kleptomaniacs, no movement to teach kids in the 3rd grade all about sadomasochism, no demand for special laws regarding employment guarantees for alcoholics, no demand that churches stop calling adultery Sin, no demands for bestialists to get marriage rights, no parades for pederasts. 

      I don't care what these people do. I don't want them hurt.  I want them to stop demanding that every citizen approve of their chosen behavior because we don't and we won't.

    • livelonger profile image

      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      And isn't divorce a sin?

    • James A Watkins profile image

      James A Watkins 8 years ago from Chicago

      livelonger— I agree with you.  We are in the New Covenant.  That is why you have not seen a single comment in here saying we should kill them immediately.  But the New Covenant also says "Go and sin no more" and warns of dire consequences for those whose words lead other people into a sinful lifestyle.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Braudboy you wrote:

      livelonger- as you accuse me of being inhumane and cruel, you only expose the attitudes of this radical movement. It has been very harsh, mean, and vindictive as it confronts the decent folk of our society. THis "gay agenda" foolishness has attacked those who want to preserve the principles and boundaries for our commonwealth and have done so with much arrogance as you have displayed. As you deny your own small numbers, you only look foolish and the majority of us only shake our heads in disbelief at your ignorance.

      Iamqweenbee writes:

      1. When you called me hasty, ignorant, etc. was that also exposing the attitude of this radical movement or were you in self-righteous mode again? ;-)

      2. What decent folk are you referring? I am decent and I don't have the same mentality as you on this subject. Yes, I want to preserve principles, morals, etc but I want to be fair and just about it. Without fairness, it is not a good principle, it is not moral, etc.

      3. The only foolishness I see are from those who hatefully oppose it without valid reasons.

      4. I think the arrogance came from you by branding everyone else who disagree. Not once did you repsect the fact that we have our own views, you went into attack mode when we did not agree. That is arrogance in itself, as if to say you are right and no one else has a say.

      5. Gays/lesbians have an abundant amount of support. You, my dear are a minority on the subject. Stop listening to those stats and pay attention to what is really going on. Now, many people have more of an open mind versus the old days. Not too many people are gay bashing like it used to be. Gays had to make their case to society and many in society are listening.

       

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Ah, but, it is judgemental to speak out against what anyone does if it does not effect you. They are living their life and leaving yours alone, why can't you do the same? You might not agree with their lifestyle, but, its their lifestyle and they should live their own life the way they see fit, as long as they are not breaking any laws and hurting people. They have to live for them. They shouldn't have to live the way others think they should.

      When you place a name or brand (as you have done) on the gay community, you are being judgemental. You are going even further by being self-righteous if you do not see that.

      Now, the part that you said...

      It is important to realize that there is both and that there must be guidelines and barriers for our citizenry to know the difference.

      I agree with that and feel that the barrier on this topic should stop at dictating whom should marry whom. We just have different beliefs. I also feel there should be no barrier on gays rights, as it applies to straight people. The law is for the common good of all not just a select few, namely straight people.

       

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Queenie- It is not judgement to teach what is right and wrong. It is important to realize that there is both and that there must be guidelines and barriers for our citizenry to know the difference. Those of you who want to remove the barriers or blur the lines do no one any favors. It is not self-righteous to speak out against this poor behavior....it is probably more so to act as yourself, that you think you can re-write the laws of society to fit your own selfish desires and not the common good.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      livelonger- as you accuse me of being inhumane and cruel, you only expose the attitudes of this radical movement. It has been very harsh, mean, and vindictive as it confronts the decent folk of our society. THis "gay agenda" foolishness has attacked those who want to preserve the principles and boundaries for our commonwealth and have done so with much arrogance as you have displayed. As you deny your own small numbers, you only look foolish and the majority of us only shake our heads in disbelief at your ignorance.

    • livelonger profile image

      Jason Menayan 8 years ago from San Francisco

      I'm so thankful that your inhumane, cruel, and ignorant attitudes toward people who are different from you are gradually going the way of the dinosaur. You speak on behalf of far fewer people than you think.

    • braudboy profile image

      braudboy 8 years ago from Long Beach, MS

      Livelonger- You have been greatly deceived, so I will spell it out one more time. Their is no gender of people that are "gay". You try to establish a 3rd genger and claim they are discriminated against. THere are not 3 sexes of people, only 2...male and female. This is a sexual behavior, and a bad behavior at that. Society has every right to limit and have boundaries on bad behavior as this in not discriminating against a person, but his actions!

      It is very simple, once you open your eyes to their deception. As to the "New Covenant" .....do you really want to get into another Bible lesson. I mean, we can, but I dont think you or anyone who supports the "gay agenda" are paying too much attention to what the Bible is saying. We certainly have a promise of "forgiveness of sins" when we accept Jesus as our Savior! To wallow in and promote our sins as virtue, to try and get society and re-write the laws of decency so men and women can act as fools, this is not part of the covenant. DId you hear when I called them men and women???? THese are men and women, not some new gender of homo sapien, that are just experimenting with immoral and poor behavior. SOciety sees it for what it is and rejects it. THey are certainly invited back into society with open arms, just dont force their filthy, disgusting ways on us ....and please dont insult our intelligence and demand that we approve and accept it as normal.

    • profile image

      iamqweenbee 8 years ago

      Braudboy you wrote:

      I am not for any sins, including the ones I committ. No one has claimed any righteous position. 

      IamQweenBee writes:  How can you say that when all you've done was judge gays/lesbians? Did you know judging others is a sin? Did you know when you see fault in everyone else, but, neglect to see your own fault is self-righteous which is also a sin? So, what's your point? The self-righteous don't make into heaven. Why? Because they think they are so dam perfect that they don't stop and make necessary improvements. Thus, they continue sinning as they are.