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Free Market Hypocrisy

  1. John Holden profile image60
    John Holdenposted 3 years ago

    Is it not hypocritical and contradictory to demand free markets when firstly the UK and then the US rose to world dominance in manufacturing with extremely protected markets?

    Even now those who shout loudest in favour of free markets don't really want them - they still really want protectionism.

    1. profile image60
      AnalogousMethodposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, if someone shouts loudest for free markets but still wants protectionism then they are a hypocrite, but I don't see many people pushing for both of those.

      For your first paragraph, no it's not hypocritical at all. Why would it be?

      1. John Holden profile image60
        John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        What! nobody has ever said they want a free market whilst complaining about competition from China!

        1. profile image60
          AnalogousMethodposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Who exactly are you talking about? If they claim both sides, then yes they are hypocrites. I just don't see it very often. Do you have someone specific in mind?

          1. John Holden profile image60
            John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Only the vast majority of people who claim to be in favour of a free market.

            1. profile image60
              AnalogousMethodposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Do you have any examples or links? We must hang around vastly different kinds of people, because I don't see that hypocrisy among free-market people.

              1. John Holden profile image60
                John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                So how many free market people do you know who are in favour of unlimited immigration?

                1. profile image60
                  AnalogousMethodposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Those are separate topics. We are talking about markets, protectionism, regulations, tariffs, taxes, and so forth.

                  1. John Holden profile image60
                    John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    No, free trade is trade without any restrictions including the sourcing of labour.

    2. profile image59
      Paul Froehlichposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      They want government bailouts only for those who are "too big to fail."

    3. tirelesstraveler profile image84
      tirelesstravelerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Google "I pencil"  It won't take long to read.

      1. John Holden profile image60
        John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        "The lesson I have to teach is this: Leave all creative energies uninhibited. Merely organize society to act in harmony with this lesson. Let society's legal apparatus remove all obstacles the best it can. Permit these creative know-hows freely to flow. Have faith that free men and women will respond to the Invisible Hand. This faith will be confirmed."

        And capitalism and the free market is the greatest crusher of creative energies.

  2. John Holden profile image60
    John Holdenposted 3 years ago

    What's the matter?
    All you free market supporters struggling for an answer?

  3. innersmiff profile image72
    innersmiffposted 3 years ago

    I favour free markets but I don't favour protectionism. I don't even buy the notion that protectionism serves to improve a nation's productivity over others.

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      So name me a successful free market.

      I'll save you the effort, all successful markets have been highly protective.

      1. innersmiff profile image72
        innersmiffposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Successful in what way? Protectionism protects specific industries but harms others. If the particular piece of protectionist legislation protects industries with bigger turnovers than those it harms, it will likely register a positive GDP statistic. One might then conclude that it helped the economy, but only if you see that helping big business over small business is good for the economy.

        Here's an illustration by David Friedman:
        "There are two ways we can produce automobiles. We can build them in Detroit or we can grow them in Iowa. Everyone knows how we build automobiles. To grow automobiles, we begin by growing the raw material from which they are made–wheat. We put the wheat on ships and send the ships out into the Pacific. They come back with Hondas on them."

        From the US' perspective, it doesn’t really matter how the wheat gets transformed into cars once the ships sail off into the ocean. Whether it’s through trade or transformation, the result is the same. And if it doesn’t matter how the wheat transforms into cars, then the fact that Japan might subsidize its own auto industry is quite irrelevant to the Americans (it’s relevant to the Japanese, as it makes them a poorer society, but that’s a different story). If it’s cheaper for Americans to get cars by growing wheat and selling it than by making the cars themselves, then that remains true regardless of whether other countries practice free trade.

        1. John Holden profile image60
          John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          What has that got to do with free trade?

          1. innersmiff profile image72
            innersmiffposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Uhhh, everything?

            1. John Holden profile image60
              John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              OK, what about the import tariffs on Japanese cars?

              1. John Holden profile image60
                John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                And what about the subsidies give to the Iowa wheat growers?

                1. innersmiff profile image72
                  innersmiffposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Which in turn would harm competing food industries, and all the industries that were taxed to pay for it.

              2. innersmiff profile image72
                innersmiffposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Which is an example of protectionism that is bad for industries in America that other nations would otherwise like to invest in. Free trade would be more economical and meet the demands of the market better in this scenario.

                1. John Holden profile image60
                  John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  But it wasn't bad for UK and US industries when they were at the peak of their success!

                  1. Silverspeeder profile image61
                    Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    It wasn't only the US and UK though was it John? Many countries employed restrictions on imports and still do.
                    Free trade now only serves to enslave poorer workers from countries that compete by keeping wages extremely low.

                  2. innersmiff profile image72
                    innersmiffposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Again, what do you mean by "bad"? In order to test our theories we need something tangible.

  4. profile image60
    AnalogousMethodposted 3 years ago

    I can show you successful examples of free market principles. Probably no society in 1000 years has had a 100% free market, but those principles still exist in specific examples, specific industries, and in watered-down states.

    I can also show you examples of controlled-markets failing.

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Well show me.

      1. profile image60
        AnalogousMethodposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Craigslist. Yes, the website is regulated by certain guidelines, but the actual market it created is largely unregulated. There are entire networks of CL traders who operate illegally without abiding laws and regulations, trading and operating in cash, and not reporting things. CL has created a very free market, with the exception of overt trading of drugs, slaves, and other high-profile goods. Lots of wealth has been traded around and made better use of because of CL.

        TOR and bitcoins created an entire market almost 100% free of any regulations or oversight, and it is so efficient that people, without any prior experience, could purchase illicit items completely anonymously.

        Elon Musk, despite government interference, has made huge advances in automobile technology and space travel, not to mention his contribution to the potential future of mass transit.

        Any time two people voluntarily trade goods or services, that's an example of a successful free market. Even if it is done under regulation, it is an example of free market principles surviving in spite of regulation.

        Computers as we know them came about largely because of free-market contribution.

        What more do you want?

        Examples of controlled-market failures exist if you look at any state-created monopolies, or products/services where the government set artificial price ceilings.

        1. John Holden profile image60
          John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I want to go to Craigslist!  Wait, are you sure that is actually a country?

  5. profile image60
    AnalogousMethodposted 3 years ago

    Who said it was a country? It's a market. Those are not the same thing. I said I would provide examples of free market principles and I did.

    You have an interesting way of constantly shifting the topic.

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      No, I made the mistake of assuming that others would read the question I posted, not make up another to answer.

      1. profile image60
        AnalogousMethodposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        You didn't ask about a country, now did you? You asked about a market.

        1. John Holden profile image60
          John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          And  you gave me examples of individual businesses, not markets.

          1. Silverspeeder profile image61
            Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Like many things John the ideal of something is not exactly what you get when its put into practice.

            1. John Holden profile image60
              John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              ?

              1. Silverspeeder profile image61
                Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Free market economics is an ideology and as with many ideologies it doesn't work without constraints. There are no countries that employ a free market economic policy because of the constraints.
                It doesn't stop politicians and business leader sounding off about it though.

                1. John Holden profile image60
                  John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Ah right, more or less the point I was making.

                  1. Silverspeeder profile image61
                    Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    There we go John the tablets must be working again.

                    I think it would be difficult to have a world free market economy because of the different politics of each individual nation.
                    If all politicians of every nation agreed to a free market they would lose political control over their nations.

          2. profile image60
            AnalogousMethodposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Why don't you tell us what you think the word 'market' means?

            I provided the examples you agreed to, so don't complain now. Craigslist is a market, Ebay is a market, the local farmer's market is a market. A market is wherever trade is happening.

            1. John Holden profile image60
              John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Lord save us from pedants!

              A free market economy, right? Not Fred Smith working in his shed or anything like that, and if you think ebay is a free market, well . . .

              1. profile image60
                AnalogousMethodposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                You didn't ask about a free market economy. I clarified that I could easily provide examples of free-market principles, and you agreed to that. Did you forget that?

                A small, mostly unregulated marketplace is a great example of free-market principles, or do you disagree?

                I said Ebay is a market, not a free market. I was explaining the difference, once again, between a market and a country. Is English your first language?

                And I did provide one example of a completely free market.

  6. profile image60
    AnalogousMethodposted 3 years ago

    Let's just stop John. It honestly is impossible to discuss with you. You constantly shift the topic, going back on your own statements. Have a nice day.

  7. John Holden profile image60
    John Holdenposted 3 years ago

    I think that as I mentioned two countries in my OP, my intent would be perfectly clear to the vast majority of thinking people.

  8. Kathryn L Hill profile image87
    Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago

    The best economy is the free goods economy where everything is free. Those who are behind a free goods economy care more about their own ability to provide for others. They care more about the ability to give their goods to strangers. They love all people... more than themselves. They live for the happiness of others. They produce their goods by materializing them at will. The cost of this sort of production is very cheap and this savings is naturally passed on to others. They really could care less about profit. In fact, profit is seen as evil. It is seen as proof of greed. They watch each other very carefully checking for any evidence of greed. Equality is another balancing factor in a free goods economy. No one should have more than anyone else. Checks and balances enable a free goods economy to thrive and survive. But not checks, ATM cards or cash. (The markets are free too.)

  9. pramodgokhale profile image60
    pramodgokhaleposted 3 years ago

    Why we say hypocrisy? System needs to be changed or lot of introspection can be done to bring change.
    globalization is a process and can not be reversed. Outsourcing killed many jobs in west and it is difficult to turn the clock.
    backward nations of yesteryear are becoming heroes of globalization and domestic development and even source of funding. For India and China takeover of loss making companies in west has become a general practice and successful turn around of ailing companies there, is a another miracle.
    Everybody in heart in heart wants monopoly and protection for their businesses.
    In India we enjoy free economy , earlier it was controlled economy ,protects local industry and they reap benefit by selling substandard product to Indian customers , now we have choice , we import what we like with quality.
    If anything goes to hyper level then some breakdowns are inevitable, but can be repaired.

  10. Kathryn L Hill profile image87
    Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago

    A free market by its very nature is not a protected market. A free market is free because no one has to pay rent or mortgage for it. Are they protected? Of course not. Anything free is taken for granted. Take the son of the owner of Hollywood Sports Cars. Richard V. was given every car he ever had. He crashed every car he ever had. Eventually he tried to major in Brain Biology which he chose due to the numerous concussions he received. His father shouldn't have given his son these cars for free. He should have expected his son to at least make monthly payments for the first car and then he would have valued it more. Same with the markets. Since they are free they are not taken care of and become easily run down. The plumbing never seems to get repaired and thats why the restrooms are always closed... what? oh the markets are not actually... huh? Then why are the restrooms always closed?

 
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