The executive order Trump has issued effectively (and intentionally) bans Muslims, and prioritizes non Muslim refugees above Muslim refugees. I believe this is the best recruiting aid that extremists could have hoped for. It's more than anything they could ever have achieved themselves, and demonstrates a lack of understanding about the tactical and strategic ramifications of political decisions.
You may not see them on the news, but make no mistake, there are US military and intelligence personnel on the ground, in some form, in all the countries Trump's executive order lists. You can be certain of it.
Their safety and effectiveness depends, to varying degrees, on the cooperation and assistance of local people who perform a variety of different support roles (at great risk to themselves and their families). Trump has just told those people they are not fit to even visit the country.
Extremists will welcome that message with open arms. They will use it as a recruitment tool for their cause. When even Iran warns that your actions are "a great gift to extremists and their supporters"(1), you know something has gone badly wrong.
From a strategic perspective, people in Muslim majority countries have a vital role to play in combatting extremism. Targeting the very people who are currently actively fighting ISIS is counter-productive. You cannot defeat them that way. Anyone who thinks bans and bombs will defeat ISIS is, frankly, an idiot.
Even worse is the effect this may have on radicalism in non-Muslim countries. ISIS has supporters among native born US and European citizens. The San Bernardino terrorist attack was carried out by a US citizen (born in Chicago), as was the Orlando attack (born in New York). The bombings in London in 2007 were carried out by UK citizens. This order does nothing to reduce the risk of homegrown radicalism, but has the potential to make it much worse.
Extremists have no need to travel to the US or Europe to carry out attacks. What they need is propaganda that enables them to recruit people already in those countries. Trump has just rewarded them with a massive boost to their propaganda material.
I sadly predict (though I hope I;m wrong) there will be more terrorist attacks from homegrown sources, and less cooperation from Muslims in countries that are fighting ISIS. We have Trump, extremist recruiter-in-chief, to thank for that.
(1) http://en.mfa.ir/index.aspx?siteid=3&am … iew=436947
(2) http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/28/middl … -citizens/
"The executive order Trump has issued effectively (and intentionally) bans Muslims"
You forgot to mention that it also bans Christians, atheists, pagans, buddhists, taoists and any other religious affiliation. Was that a mistake or intentionally done to give a false appearance of religious discrimination?
You also seem to forget that the ban is a limited time one, until we can figure out how to tell the difference between a terrorist and the underground. Was that intentional as well?
"Targeted" is everyone wishing to leave those countries. Or, alternatively, the jihadists that pose a danger, with everyone temporarily caught in the net, and intended to be released ASAP. Or did you mean to insinuate that the true "target" is the underground there?
"This order does nothing to reduce the risk of homegrown radicalism, but has the potential to make it much worse. "
I am unable to detect any language in the original order that indicated American born trying to travel to the US from Syria (with a few exceptions) get to do so at will. Is it your intention to claim that they do? (Yes, I know the courts have put a stay on that group, but that doesn't change what the order states.)
"and less cooperation from Muslims in countries that are fighting ISIS."
Or, when they discover that most (or all, given time) of the rest of the world refuses to take them in, will they turn on the source of their agony and pay the blood price to eradicate it themselves? We're already seeing some effort in that direction from the more advanced Muslim nations; will we see more?
Trump selected these 7 Muslims countries in general base on the high rate of Muslims and to put pressure on doing oil bussiness with the US. Their destruction and their total take over of these oil countries cultures and Religion has not worked in the pass and will not for the US Corporatism Greed now.
Trump's aim is to make US number 1 oil import and export country in the world. Rather than to find natural alternative energy. War and destruction of nature works also with UN depopulation mandate. When US/Israel created the false flags of 9/11 and other places, they are willing to anything in the name of greed, while tooling Religion.
Zionist don't care about Religion, so far money has made their world go round.
The greatest NWO scam is finished, the whole world is on to America/Israel empire collapsing. The top two most hated countries in the world. Most of the world is all ready to pile on America and finish them off. I can't stand to watch my good old friend crumble over a very few greedy bunch mental illness.
I'm not going to argue here about whether it does or does not discriminate against Muslims. In my opinion it does, but this is about the strategic and tactical effects of the ban and its perception around the world.
A US citizen does not need to physically travel anywhere to become radicalized. Why would you think that? Radicalization is simply the process by which someone adopts extremist political views. Propaganda on social media, blogs, and forums are all potential sources of radicalization. Nobody needs a visa to go on the internet.
The majority of people fighting (and dying at the hands of) Muslim extremists, are Muslims. They have already paid the "blood price" for fighting the likes of ISIS.
Do you deny that this is a propaganda coup for extremists? Do you deny it makes the job of military and intelligence personnel operating in Muslim majority countries that much harder? Do you deny it deters Muslims in those countries offering their assistance? Do you deny that the ban does absolutely nothing to reduce the risk of attacks carried out by native US and European citizens?
Let's be honest here, Don. Your complaint that Trump has handed over a propaganda tool is ridiculous. Because, it appears that you are implying that there is a solution to the terrorism. We can all somehow kiss and be friends; if we, somehow, figure out what they want us to do. It's not going to happen. Doesn't matter what we do or don't do. Terrorism is alive and well and will lumber on and they will be able to recruit many whether they like Trump and his policies or not.
No, it implies that doing things that make the situation even worse that it is, is probably not the best way to go. It's not about figuring out what "they" want "us" to do. It's about figuring out how we (non-terrorists) deal with terrorists in a smart way. If the aim is to reduce risk of harm, then doing something that increases the risk of harm, is idiotic.
Even worse than it is
Well, there is where our opinions deviate sharply. We can't make it worse than it is. In my opinion. We have a bunch of fanatics who hate western civilization and are hell bent on bringing it down and plunging the world into a reign of terror and darkness. I'd be curious what is worse than that.
You talk about a smart way of dealing with terrorists. I don't see how attempting to approach the problem from an angle of intellectual thoughtfulness (which usually involves compassion and consideration) could work when you are dealing with ignorance and hatred. That hasn't been working too good, thus far.
I predicted much of what is happening now. Where America gets pulled away from inside with race wars and political sides, a second civil war.
Mexico and China have just declared war with US. Russia has a cold war on and on the edge of a nuke war. US most dangerous thing of all is fighting in southern China seas. Muslim ban is unamerican, unconstitutional and against international law. US is being pulled apart from the outside too. US won't get a chance to build their economy which has been lost to the Federal Reserve debt anyway. Putin warns America people to keep their guns. Trump needs to be impeach or hospitalized for his mental meltdown. Or he may get killed like Hitler. Good enough writing on the wall for me being in South America.
History Lesson for Liberals ;
If Trumps executive order and implementation of proper immigration vetting is a propaganda recruiting tool for Islamic terrorism , Then These same Islamic Terrorists must have absolutely LOVED President Obama and his war against constitutionally regulated immigration vetting and lack of proper border protections!
Democrats must have absolutely no politically generated memory whatsoever ! FDR , a flaming Democrat not only interred the Japanese American citizens in concentration camps during WWII but confiscated there properties all over the western US !
THEN , he turned away tens of thousands of Jewish refugees who came to America on cruise liners before , during and after the Nazi -Holocaust during the Second World War !
People , There is NO solution to terrorism , such is the definition and nature of modern terror . While Liberals wring their hands , jumping through P,.C. hoops trying to pacify a fanatical culture trying to dominate all other world cultures ; terrorism not only lives on but thrives without any U.S. help
Modern terrorism needs no recruiting posters- -it's simply evil , But get used to it , it isn't going anywhere soon , neither is Trump as a matter of fact !
Let me just repeat the points already stated. Address them when you're good and ready:
There are US military and intelligence personnel on the ground in all the countries Trump's executive order lists. This order makes their tasks more difficult and puts them in greater danger.
Muslim majority countries have a vital role to play in combatting extremism. Targeting the very people who are currently actively fighting ISIS is counter-productive. Bans and bombs will not defeat ISIS.
ISIS has supporters among native born US and European citizens. This order does nothing to reduce the risk of homegrown terrorism, but has the potential to make it worse.
Extremists have no need to travel to the US or Europe to carry out attacks. They can groom willing volunteers at a distance, which they have successfully done. You don't need a visa to go on the internet. Trumps order does nothing to reduce the risk of this.
When you're able to address those issues, let me know.
An interesting compilation, Don, but not sure I can agree with all of.
Just how does a travel ban on all but military make the jobs of those personnel more difficult. I'm not following this, unless you're implying that removing some people, both terrorist and not, from the country will make it easier.
Absolutely agree, but am unable to figure out how the ban hurts that. Taking those that are fighting ISIS out of the country seems counter-productive to their continuing their fight.
Once more, banning travel from Syria doesn't seem to have much affect on ISIS supporters in a different country. Can you explain more fully?
The ban will not stop long distance recruiting instruction, no. But that has nothing to do with the things it WILL help with, does it? It's like saying that bans on driving with bald tires is useless because it does nothing to halt the death toll from drunk drivers.
Lets see then ,In the gist of your questions lies a message , You really believe as many do , that we must strategically cow -tow to the extremists of the world ?
-The danger to troops and intelligence people "on the ground " were there to begin with and THAT is why we are there to begin with .
- The countries "targeted " are all too often complicit with the very extremists that we ARE targeted for immigration vetting . The problem being THEY are not targeting their extremist elements. THAT is why we are .
-I.S.I.S. has supporters among native born and immigrated people here - DUH ! Exactly why the executive order was invoked to begin with .
- The recruitment from afar that you speak of is but the single uncontrollable factor and yet - You believe that an open door policy for for immigration is far better ? Yea......you truly understand controlled immigration ,......... NOT .
Note ---- One number alone AND from the Obama administration - says that there are over six thousand MISSING foreign student visa holders within US borders ! I cannot imagine how high the TRUE number really is , This is present immigration policy and that's Okay with you ?
An open door policy for immigration isn't okay with a majority of Americans .
Wanting to be smart in how you deal with something is not the same as wanting to "cow-tow". You seem to have an aversion to being smart.
- It doesn't matter why those people are there. They are there! Making their tasks even more difficult and increasing the danger they already in is not, by any reckoning, smart. It's stupid.
- People in those countries (Muslims) are also helping the US military and US intelligence in ways you will never hear about. And the Muslim ban does not target extremists. It targets everyone who lives in those countries (which happen to be mostly Muslim). That type of shotgun approach isn't smart. It's stupid.
- Great, we agree, ISIS already has native-born supporters in the US and Europe. President Bannon's Muslim ban does nothing to reduce the risk of those people committing attacks. All it does is causes harm to hundreds of thousands of ordinary Muslims who have nothing to do with extremism and simply want to get on with their lives. Like it or not, these people are vital to defeating extremism. These are the people who should be encouraged to advocate against extremism right within the heart of its source. Bombs and bans cannot do that! Hurting Muslims who are allies, in the vain chance of stopping an extremist, is like cutting off your nose to spite of your face. It isn't smart. It's stupid.
- It's about cost vs. benefit. Whatever benefit you think there is in this Muslim ban, is far outweighed by the cost of it in terms of all the things mentioned. That fact is so obvious, I that I refuse to believe Bannon is stupid enough not to know it. He's too shrewd. I think something else is afoot. This is a political act to consolidate power, test fault lines within the federal agencies etc. Bannon is testing the boundaries.Seeing what he can get away with. If that's not the case, that means they are really just dumb. I'm not sure which is worse.
Cops, furniture and lightning each kill more people than terrorist do. I can name a 1000s of other things that kill more people than terrorist. Why don't we have a war on these worst killers like bad food like sugar then work our way down to the least killing thing like Muslims terrorist.
Or would this cut into the fun of true massive killers and cut into the over high profits for the rich.
I get called crazy for extremely good sense.
I heard on the news Iran is banning American citizens. It could carry out to the other 7 Muslims countries to ban US also.
Does anyone find this friendly and healthy for foreign Relationships. ?
The Iran Treaty was something we wanted in the military only because we needed to offset it to Saudi Arabia. The Treaty itself and the provisions have to be re-examined by the new administration. The amount of money that was spent for hostages was in the billions of dollars, that was incredible, and has to be held accountable.
Iran has already broke the treaty twice by firing missiles.
And there is the problem with dealing with fanatics. They will lie to your face to achieve a goal and then turn around and do exactly what moves toward completing their fanatical plans; with no regard for their given word that they will do otherwise. Because it is permitted within Islam to lie to the unbeliever. So, for a fanatic, all of that would be within bounds. This is not the only religion I have heard allows deception toward those outside of its faith; so if anyone is going to complain that I have a problem with Islam I have this problem with any belief structure which can be used to allow the individual to consider the use of deception when dealing with others somehow rubber stamped on a cosmic level.
I wonder what the liberal dissenters will say when they send a missile into Israel and annihilate most of that population. Because, the annihilation of Israel is their stated goal.
Reasonable people can disagree and remain reasonable. A fanatic is not a reasonable person and should never be treated as such. No matter how politically correct it may be deemed to do so.
Personally I would be quite happy to find that no American military personnel could enter any of those 7 countries.
So, anyone that cannot or simply will not see the importance of a CONTROLLED immigration policy from ALL parts of the world is simply blinded by leftist rhetoric . I believe that the simple fact alone that IN ONE WEEKEND of Trumps new executive order , ---That so many people were jammed up in airports ---is a direct indicator of the drastic need of more controls .
One , Any - " aversion to being smart " ,--is not mine but yours. And it lies wholly in the liberal ideologies that totally support this continued disastrous world refugee migration. Just some of the points ;the crime , financial exploitations of these families , the incredible amounts of added border protections that European countries have invested , the sea born drowning's, the incredible amounts of hunger , starvation of children ,the unnatural cultural clashes , policing and military costs , The cultural shock alone for eleventh century dwellers into today's Europe and America . Where exactly has the refugee settlements been a success ? Germany ? England ? Greece ? France ?
-Each of these countries have their own economic problems
-It would have been far better off to set up and protect safe spaces in their own countries
-I thought you liberals knew ALL about safe spaces
Two . The people in place who are "helping " our intelligence services aren't the ones in flight , they\se people actually care about the future of their own cultures and countries and remain .Refugees are just that , refugees .
Three , our policies towards LEGAL immigration isn't the same as the radically infused refugee problem to begin with , That is part and parcel to the blindness of your opinion , WHY do your ideologies constantly throw the two in together ?
Four ",Cost and Benefit " It would have been far , far cheaper to not have allowed the totally disastrous Obama - Clinton foreign policies to have created a world refugee crisis to begin with ,remember your "Arab Spring" Syria , Lebanon , Yemen , even Iraq , Iran , Afghanistan , on and on ......what disastrous results , .Apparently you know extremely little about "Cost and Benefit " better leave that to the trump administration .
All The spent treasures and embassy , soldiers lives ! How soon you've forgotten .
But you want to call me stupid ?
You've got no real answers because there is nothing sensible you can say to defend this idiocy.
All you can do is go on about liberal ideology blah blah blah, Clinton and Obama blah blah blah like a broken record.
Every one of the points I made in my last comment still stand. You've said nothing that even remotely addresses them:
Making the lives of your own military and intelligence people even harder, is stupid.
Hurting the people who are helping you, is stupid.
Hurting Muslims who have nothing to do with extremism, but are crucial in defeating it at the source, is stupid.
Issuing this ban, knowing that the benefit is outweighed by the cost, is either stupid or a strategic move to consolidate power. Either is worrying.
Oh and we can all post pictures. Here's one for you:
And yes they're all children, because (as always) they're the ones who are suffering the most. But it's okay, they're probably not Christians, so they're less important, right? Turning men women and children in this state away is immoral. Being scared is no excuse for it. You should be utterly ashamed of yourself for trying to defend it.
by Don W 18 months ago
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