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Misunderstanding Gender

Updated on January 8, 2016
A Trans woman with the letters XY written on her palm- courtesy Wikipedia
A Trans woman with the letters XY written on her palm- courtesy Wikipedia

X, Y, Z? Chromosome confusion

I've given gender a lot of thought. About 11 years ago my father became a transsexual (biological gender does not match gender identity). Many transsexuals live as the opposite sex in which they were born and even get sex reassignment surgery. My dad has done all this, but now lives as I would describe non-gender specific. What does that mean? Beats me! Since I see the way people observe my dad when we're in public, I know they want to know- male or female? No one considers both.

The easiest way to describe my thoughts on gender and to straighten out any confusion on gender is the example of a young child, because many of us have had children or been around them. You may not remember being that small, but believe it or not there was a time when we were more concerned about our belly buttons than the ins and outs of anything below them.

In the early years children are experiencing a curiosity for life, toys, games, and costumes associated with both sexes and from both perspectives- healthy exploration. My daughter, for instance can kick some serious dragon butt in a sword fight and also be the fairest frilly princess in the land. My daughter is also able to view my dad as a person, not associated with male or female. I see him through her eyes and the importance of gender in society could possibly be the problem.

Another way to look beyond gender is the spiritual description of a spirit or soul, contrasted with the material body. In many religions, after we die we become a spirit or a soul, not male or female. Also, God is described to be "Principle, mind, soul, spirit, life, truth, love"- none of which mention male or female. Looking beyond gender is basically getting to know someone for all the above words I quoted. Somehow that is enough and gender is rather a small thing in the scope of it all.

Disorder or Third Gender?

If you think about it, the medical community stands to gain a lot by convincing, and jumping to conclusions about what needs to happen if someone believes they are trans. First, they are ethically bound to follow certain procedures in dealing with any disorder. However, transgender is the only self-diagnosed disorder out there. Therefore, does the medical community even have an unbiased perspective or a handle on the proper way to proceed with someone who comes to them with their own diagnosis. It's similar to a phantom illness- doctors have turned other patients away for self-diagnosing or perhaps something be "all in your head."

Going to school for a Psychology Degree, and before my father's transition, I struggled with the term 'Gender Identity Disorder', someone with persistent feelings of identification with the opposite sex and discomfort with one's own sex. If someone told me I had to be a doctor and I felt strongly against it, would that make me have 'Career Identity Disorder'? Perhaps I just don't want to be a doctor. One society's expectations should not result in a disorder when it causes more harm to the individual than to the society.

In other societies, there are terms for a third gender. In Polynesian and Samoan societies, fa'afafine is a third gender and wholly accepted as such. They usually are male, but dress as female. In some Indian cultures, Hijras are a third sex, usually enjoying an living a normal life. Native American societies recognize a two-spirited person who identifies with both male and female, Warrior and Clan Mother. If you think about it, that would be a significant advantage to have both identities. It is interesting to know that not all societies view various gender identities as a problem.

Gender and progressive parenting

"Parents Keep Child's Gender Under Wraps" was the headline of an interesting article I spotted recently. Maybe you've heard of parents keeping their unborn baby's sex a secret, but what if they kept it secret after it was born? That is what one couple decided to do with their third child, Storm. The parents believe it gives the child the freedom to be whoever he/she wants to be. The baby is now 4 months old and nobody is sure how long the parents plan to go on with this.

I have no problem with people raising their children in an open, accepting, creative, unconditional loving atmosphere. This gender neutral child is an experiment and a point the parent's are trying to make, believing it is a tribute to freedom of choice. The way I see it though is the child still doesn't have a choice. I think it inadvertently puts an emphasis on gender.

The parents of this child claim 'other parents make too many choices for their kids, it's obnoxious'. I wonder if they plan to let that child discipline itself or let it decide when to grow up too. There is such a thing as healthy persuasion- you know this if you've had to potty train a child.

I am fully aware of some parents influence on gender bordering overbearing. My mom relentlessly dressed me up in bows and dresses all the time, but eventually I got an idea of what I liked around age 7 or 8, and I wore jeans and t-shirts for the rest of my youth. So even if parents put their influence on children, they usually turn out the way they are going to anyway. This also encouraged me to be me in any environment, even where there were strong influences to be otherwise.

Their experiment also suggests that gender is not biological. They are promoting a freedom of choice agenda but even transsexuals say there is not much choice in how you feel about your gender, despite influences either way. If gender identity is biological then it would not make a difference if they withheld the child's sex and influenced it's environment in the way they are. But on the off chance, gender is influenced by environment, then they could very well be doing some damage by not giving gender cues.

Their other two children, while knowing their sex, are allowed to dress and be who they are. The oldest, approaching five is now having issues about his choice to dress in girl's clothing and having really long hair. He gets upset when others mistake him for a girl. I think it makes gender an issue even before it should be of concern in a child's life. I dress my daughter as a girl and if you were to call her a girl or a boy, bad or good, she would just respond "No, I'm Haley" (her name). Her identity is not wrapped up in her gender. Bottom line, is be open without influence either way. A child can play with toys and clothes of opposite gender, be told their gender, and still realize who they are.

Coming out

There comes a time in one's life when they realize who they are, they differentiate themselves from others around them, and learn to navigate their way through life. Believe it or not, I was once painfully shy. My parents expected me to be a good girl, never talk back, quiet and pretty, and never have a thought or opinion of my own. Even when I began getting bad grades in school, my report card always read I 'was a pleasure to have in class'. That was my identity, but eventually I got my own.

I can understand how people feel trapped by their early influences, expectations, and parents, whether it be gender identity or self-identity. We all have some coming out to do when our growing up is done. Not everyone will accept us and most importantly, it is not important whether everyone does. Only when it is important to fit in, does gender (or anything else) become a problem. Concerning gender identity, clothing does not say something about roles, gender status, or even choice of partner. This goes for both society's views and even those wishing to transition from one sex to another.

On a happy note, I've also known many people who are 'different' but extremely comfortable in their different skin, and somehow everyone around them is not only accepting, but happy to be around them. It's only the beginning when you figure out who you are, the other aspect is accepting yourself and being truly comfortable aside from what others think. 

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    • izettl profile image
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      Lizett 5 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Tim~ A lot of misunderstandings going on here. First I believe that society and the medical community have lumped all trans into two groups (male to female and female to male). As you probably know not all sexualities and genders can be that black and white. There are bi's and asexuals so two trypes of trans just doesn't fit into my mind. There might be women who identify with both sexes or men who also identofy with both- therefore not male or female...maybe both. But because society, psych and medical community says to make them happy they should choose one or the other. Society get extrememly confused if someone is both male and female to they dont like that and the pressure to decide on one is inherent before you even realized what you identified as.

      i agree Tim on your thoughts about the binary system. I worked with mentally ill people for a short time and learned that if you treat them as if they were, they acted out more, but if you treat them "normal" they acted that way. Now I raise my two young kids and see that when kids do something bad and you treat them as if they are bad then they will live up to that label, whereas treating it as a situation instead of the kid themselves being bad. relating to gender, is we hold certain stigmas- if a boy is extra sensitive or likes pretty things people start treating him girly and that at least contributes to him thinking about his manhood (which is a huge deal to a young boy). This would suggest it's all nurture rather than nature, but I believe a lot of it is. We underestimate that aspect because it holds a stigma in the GLBT community.

      Like Jeanine, I believe there are people who genuinely identify with both male and female and there seems to be no place for them in our society, no recognition even.

    • izettl profile image
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      Lizett 5 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Just read the new comments here and I'll be back to respond.

    • profile image

      Jeanine 5 years ago

      I agree... I wished there weren't so many molds to be broken...

    • Timdestroyer8 profile image

      Timdestroyer8 5 years ago from California

      Honestly, the war of the sexes happened, that's my best guess. Can't have people blurring the boundaries. Basically, my thoughts are women were taken down the ladder first, assigning their limits and cages. But what the men didn't realize is they gave themselves their own cages which, as a male, I can say are quite torturous: lack of emotional connection with other males unless you were gay, etc.

      Also, it may have to do with the fact we strangled compassion by having such a harsh economic system; and since men are at the forefront of it, they can be demoralized at times or overly streesed. Not saying jobs aren't helpful to men, I'm just saying it could be a factor-- keep in mind, I'm speculating here as I haven't lived enough to be sure. And women are starting to dart ahead in the workforce, so we'll just have to see how they fare.

      Honestly, binary hurts a lot of us. Not saying you shouldn't give dolls to girls or trucks to boys. But I would ask you to be considerate of their evolving natures because to crush that is incredibly cruel (this is generally for people who stumble on this).

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      jeanine 5 years ago

      Thanks for the clarification... if you google two spirited people you can start there... all I'm saying is, according to the therapist I've gone to and unfortunately there have been to many for me, not one of them gave me any thing concrete to relie on... all of them and I mean all of them had no solution for anyone who wanted to stay with their families and try and lead a normal life... it's how I began 15 years ago looking for someone who knew something... after many years of therapy and group... I have noticed that for late transitioners, there are not very many happy girls... and yes I know women can hurt their children but you must look at that and see there is not a great percentage of those in this population ( the US)... I am very aware of genderqueer, but again those are terms that are lest than 100 years old... what I'm referring to is thousands of years... there is evidence that we have been here for thousands of years... the fact that you are one some days and another on other days is what drives most of my search... all of the therapist I have spoken with only described this behavior as confusion... what if it's not confusion and we are just a different sect of people... until the Christians appeared we were the spiritual leaders... in some tribes where our leadership was valued there was not a word for divorce... I believe you are right in that transsexuals fall in another category... what I believe is the entire GLBT falls under the umbrella of two spirited... and why is this history not discussed. How is there evidence that we were here for thousands of years and lifted high within most tribes and now we are the most disrepected people on earth... there has to be some connection somewhere... how do we go from being the most respected to the least... the only thing I see different in our behavior and those of us that were here thousands of years ago is we are being forced or coerced into joining the binary system... I don't feel like one or the other ... do you...

    • Timdestroyer8 profile image

      Timdestroyer8 5 years ago from California

      First off, I should apologize for my tribe statement as it was not right to jump too that. It was just that at first, I found your comments irksome to me because it sounded condemnatory and as a newbie, two spirit has closer relation to the tribe idea mentioned above. My preferred term, if you will, is genderqueer because from what I read and my thoughts were that you could be a male with female genitalia so two-spirited didn't fit the concept in my view. Transsexuals I feel are in a different category from this perception.

      And homosexual men comment was in reference to nepalese girl. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that, I could've done better.

      Also, are your resources available at the library? And do you have an online site or two you'd recommend? If you want, I'd be appreciative if you could email it through my profile. But I will do some due diligence on John Hopkins to start with.

      I guess, I'm transgender ( or, if the term isn't good enough, gender queer) because I experience as having feminine traits but more importantly, I experience myself as both. Male in one moment, female in the other, often making me realize how unlike other males I am.

      As for the transsexuals hurting children by transitioning and the idea that males are the only ones capable of hurting children-- you say women only do it if their sick. I'll tackle that one in probably a week's time so I can read a little more and allow things to gestate.

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      jeanine 5 years ago

      absolutely not of the tribe that you speak of and that's pretty funny to say the least... made me smile... and as far as research I would bet I have read and experienced more than you think... transsexuals are not homosexual men that haven't discovered it yet...lol... you are funny... they are misinformed two spirited men and women... read... you don't have to take my advice...google it and read for yourself... we were leaders and advisers all over the world in every tribe... we were all different names if that's what you are talking about... until the medical community decided that our only relief is to have surgery... give me a break... "what genetic female do you know that will actually hurt her children on purpose... not one... unless she is sick and can't help herself"... so the "I'm a woman in a man's body", just didn't work for me, even after five therapist said I am transsexual" I'm sure I am by their definition... but I unlike a lot of my friends, the women in me, loves my children like a lioness... and I would kill any man that tried to hurt my children, including the one I live in.... this one fact does more to prove that most of the trans community is male... they handle it like males... "I'm gonna git r done no matter who it hurts"... do you really know any women that fit that profile... I don't... most women I know are thoughtful and very patient when it comes to their families... and would gladly give their own lives for their children... now, if my concern for my children disqualifies me as a transsexual... then so be it... if you answer yes... then you must ask... are these women who are trapped in men's bodies mentally sick... because the only women (genetic females) that we have any record of hurting the children intentionally are those who are sick or mentally unbalanced... and since I have transsexual friends, I don't think all of them are sick or unbalanced... what I do see in our community are trans women who still act very much like men... kinda like you telling me I don't have a clue... lol... and I would laugh out except it's not very funny if it is happening to you and your family... a mature woman would never... let me repeat, never put herself before her family... when you say "But transexuals aren't like that"... I get tickled... this community is so diverse you can never say ... we are this way or that... and as far as research... I sat with the head of John Hopkins TS program years ago and asked ... "why are you shutting this program down" He said we were the first to do the surgery and we are shutting it down because it it much deeper than we thought... we are not sure after years of study and years of doing the operations if we are doing these guys and girls any good... I didn't set out to find that we were a famous tribe of advisers... I was just looking for why, I see so much pain in my community... also why there is so much hatred for us... I believe the hatred comes from a primal distain for us as leaders... we were once looked up to because we understood both genders and now that some of us want to join the binary system there is that primal hatred... I could be wrong... in your research what to you attribute the hate to... just because we are different, or because we want to wear different closes... look deeper you'll find it yourself... it has very little to do that we are dressed as our target sex... much much deeper... I'm sure some of this may be my own pyschosis, but the interesting thing is there is a history that supports my theory if you care to look... the strongest statement is still... what woman hurts her children on purpose... all trans do it... read... don't just write down something you believe or something someone told you... we were there thousands of years ago... we are two living as one... not one or the other... wake up... you say you are trans... how do you know... I am two because I have lived as two all my life and I still live this way... not hiding like the rest... not hating my body... I was fortunate... I have the utmost respect for all those in our community... but in reality... in the years to come... these that took the operation will be known as pioneers when we wanted to be like the binaries... one day we will take our rightful place... by the way we were known in some tribes as the keepers of the secrets of God..... if you really wished there were more gender ambiguous people... where do you think that idea came from... it's within you just as it's within each of us that are two spirited... men and women all over the world will one day... live freely and not have to feel ashamed or who we are... proud to be two living as one... no longer being shamed into choosing one or the other of the binary system... I enjoyed what you wrote... I hope you come and write here as often as you can... thanks so much for your opinion... and thx for letting me share mine

    • Timdestroyer8 profile image

      Timdestroyer8 5 years ago from California

      Sigh, I guess I'll start with this, I am transgender or at least that's an approximation of who I am now. I kinda fit the idea of blending both halfs and wish there were more gender ambiguous people on show who adopt more of a mixture. However, I fervently disagree with your sentiment that medicine is pushing and forcing us to become the opposite of our biological gender. For example, Jeanine isn't a woman trapped in a man's body: zie's both a man and a woman. And surgery would mean killing a part of her self. But transexuals aren't like that. They aren't homosexual men who haven't realized it. Shoot, transexuals can be lesbians as well(this is in reference to nepalese girl). They're different breeds, far different. So (in a sense) Jeanine is somewhat misrepresenting(to be fair a little extra research couldn't hurt).Also, would these people gladly take the surgery if it was available to them? Because if so, wouldn't your two spirit system be misrepresenting people who are actually one spirited? One last thing, are you part of a tribe that sees transexuals as signs of the end times?

    • izettl profile image
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      Lizett 5 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Chuck~ interesting info- did not know any of that. Thanks so much for sharing.

    • Chuck Bluestein profile image

      Chuck Bluestein 5 years ago from Morristown, AZ, USA

      In the U.S. there are 50,000 intersexuals. This means that they are not male or female. One example is someone has one ovary and one testicle. Females have xx chromosome. Males have xy chromosomes. Decades ago a man got surgery and became a woman and also a supermodel. After they learned about her, no one would hire her. Her chromosomes were XXY.

      On the evolution timeline, gender came very late. You had organisms that that just had cell division. Then you had plants. Then you had worms that were both sexes and the worms would mate and both worms became pregnant.

    • profile image

      Jeanine 5 years ago

      Oh ... that makes me weep... so much talent wasted on a medical mistake... so much avoidable pain... I am overcome with grief for my tribe...

    • izettl profile image
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      Lizett 5 years ago from The Great Northwest

      agreed J- somewhere in history things changed from being curious and coveting things we did not understand to witch hunts and destroying things we don't understand now.

    • profile image

      Jeanine 5 years ago

      yes I dont understand how we got here...I mean how do you go from being the most respected....to being the most disrespected...it makes no sense

    • izettl profile image
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      Lizett 5 years ago from The Great Northwest

      There is just a huge lack of information about two in one or being both. Maybe it could be intimidation in the view of majority of society and public- like you said, two spirited were valuable and advisors to powerful.

    • profile image

      Jeanine 5 years ago

      Izettl... I'm in agreement in that everyone should be happy, but I think the one thing that all trans have done is to try and be happy as they were born... that's the whole point... we have never been able to be comfortable in the given sex of our birth...since I am two spirited and promote living in the body we are given but recognizing that both male and female spirits are living a co existence within the spirit...one must say... transsexuals are only doing what is right... it' s the way it's so secretive played today that doesn't dance well with the family....we as two spirits believe in a more honest approach... we believe that we are to live freely as both... never considering leaving our families nor with them ever leaving us... at first look one says I have no time for compromise ... when in reality it is no compromise at all... it's simply learning to live with the whole person instead of .... understand... I hate the binary system... because it says there are only two... well who are we then...I'm tired of hollywood defining who we are... we are two spirit men and women... who have been beaten into submission by a binary culture...true look it up... we were once the elite... advisers to kings... leaders of great nations... not the attention junkies that movies and TV depicts us as.... well they depict us as bimbo women and men... who use to be the other... stand up and act like a woman man... and all you women... act like a man will ya...lol...lol...as funny as that may sound... I am serious we are two... and have let a would who is afraid of who we were talk us into trying to be more like them.....what was it they said...oh yeah..."Lets us help you be more... by letting us make you less"... get it... they don't know any one like us so there must certain be something wrong with us...what is that the doctors are whispering... I can just make it out....lol..."lets help them, lets fix what's wrong with them"... does that sound odd to you... it did to me a while back and I have been looking at our tribe of men who are sure they are women... and visa versa...think about it if you are trans... and think about it if you are not... if your not do you carry a general bias for the gender variant person... these are real question we will have to answer as we become more accepted by the public...

    • izettl profile image
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      Lizett 5 years ago from The Great Northwest

      nepalese girl~ you bring up excellent points. Probably some of the strongest points I've heard for sex changes being unnecessary. As medical tehcnology and plastic surgeon develop new techniques, we will probably see more people transition sexes. This is sad and unnecessary. One must be happy with themselves before transitioning or they won't be happy as a person- male or female.

    • profile image

      nepalese girl 5 years ago

      i am a medical student and i am against sex change operations coz just having a external feature of woman makes you a mask or a paint its not called change.its a lie to yourself and to the people who sees you..being woman is not only having boobs its having a mammary gland the feminine organ that rejoice the sense of motherhood...in medicine human sexuality is divided into 4 kinds heterosexual,homosexual,bisexual and asexual same like those of plants..and its the nature who made us and all living beings so..homosexual people people should be ashamed of what they are to undergo such show off surgeries..they should come out from the inferiority and develop acceptance..acceptance that they are homosexual not heterosexual n lead the world in new trend to support other homosexual people that its natural the way they are..so they shouldn't go through surgeries and all coz they have to make the world accept the way they are not to change the themselves..and most likely this may develop serious hazard in human beings when medical technology will advance even more.the existence of what nature made us will be endangered so world health organisation should stop this sorts of surgery and use its potential and manpower and money in overcoming different dangerous disease,aging and all...i really loved this piece of article..you are a person with great writing ability...good luck for your future...

    • profile image

      jeanine 6 years ago

      I think you are right, in that women can do it all and it will affect life expectancy in the future...I also believe we come to a cross road here soon, where women stand up and are standing up already and are nor demanding but urging their men to take more responsibility at home. The economy has had a lot to do with it, so many men out of work, but also so many women hanging in there and although some have been laid off, when we come out of this, the tables will have begun to turn... it's not wish on my part, it's a fact that seems to no longer be lying dormant... men are more indecisive now than they have ever been... and although women I think would be perfectly happy to stay in the roll that they have been given and realizing that they must must ahead and create something more substantial than their husbands have been able to do..actually I think it has more to do with the creative factor in men and women... most men, Gd love em are complete slugs when it comes to the creative, or seeing things that need to be done around the house. This one point has allowed the void to be filled by the gay community... no pun intended.... which if one looks closely, is mostly a fem behavior... ever closer to a fem led world... if we do get control of congress one day and I believe we will have a woman president soon, look we've tried everything else, so why not a woman... I think the wars stop... women begin to find more positions of power...throughout the world... it's no longer a man' world completely... these factors are some of the reasons my tribe has birthed transsexuals... as two spirits "we here the train a coming" as Johnny Cash once said...lol... and it is the reason some trans have changed... they are first responders so to speak... they see that women will one day be totally in charge, not just behind the scenes but in total control... so we as a tribe are the first to leap from one gender into the other... men who are really men but are willing to take the risk that they could be first in line... zealots, the radical fringe... however wrong or right this is, it has shocked the regular public but also shocked our community... for the man who would be woman, because of his blindness to see certain things, is more shocked than the rest... he has jumped into a social change that doesn't happen for years, yet his jump has moved the date of fruition up in history... so Transsexuals are important in the move of women to the forefront of the evolutionary chain... yet, unless there are major castastrophic changes, I will be dead and gone when this happens, but needed to say it, so some of you will remember... train your children both female and male to accept the changes that are coming... mothers have more to do with the change than anyone else in the spirit... men grow up listening to mothers then somewhere along the way, they begin to think they done have to... women grow up listening then some where along the way they know they are women and have their own rights to be... when the child comes, it is their passage into complete motherhood, yet right now in the chain, women are content to raise their families, soon there comes a day that that is no longer gratifying as it once was... I think women would stay in this state forever, but some will see the need for peace throughout the world... we have grown weary of you sending our sons to war... so if you will not stop the wars... we will stop the warring attitude in our sons... it is a natural progression to peace... and we have already begun to embrace it... gender wars... will have a new meaning... women all over the world have begun to think the thoughts of change... the gift my tribe has is... we here what you are thinking for us and want to change out of love... for the women we love... that very fact is not yet understood about transsexuals... the most selfish of us all in the two spirited community, did not start that way... the journey is so hard that self preservation becomes the main motivation after the resistance starts... so the next trans you meet... look closely and try to have some compassion for here is the challenge... if you could hear and new what was to be and no one listened for all of your life... it would be hard not to follow the path that you have seen so clearly for all of your life... and that's what happens to us... the gifts we process and and have had for centuries are no longer looked upon as something this society needs... so instead of great decisions being made and helping our fellow man and womankind... we are left to just see the future ourselves... after a while... if no one is there to listen... we no longer see anyone else... so then you get what the world calls... those selfish transgenders and TS...

    • izettl profile image
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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      J~ lol. when you put it that way, it makes me laugh, but so much truth to what you are saying. I think some guys are melting into the more of the previously prescribed female duties, especially with kids, and taking on the tasks. But many men are increasingly detesting the fact that women have "other" outside of home duties. It seems they like the extra money a woman can bring in, but the mentality is she should still be 100% wife and mother.

      Right now women are proving they can "do it all", but I wonder how long they can keep it up. Seriously, it could lead to some health problems overall for women in the future and we may see their life expectancy drop below men someday.

    • profile image

      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Yes I thought so myself... and the part about violence in society is true I believe... we are only beginning to see the emergence of women at the forefront of the world... your hub about "plan b"... is and has been up until this moment a male thought pattern... for the first time in history, instead of the man thinking he might trade her in for a new model, women are beginning to think about the trade in value of their man... oh my what sacreledge...lol...lol.. can't wait till we can kick the tires and check the dip stick before purchasing...lol...maybe take him out for a test run or a spin around the town...lol... I do believe we have a winner here... because just as I am on one end of the spectrum I believe you and many others like you are on the other... when the tipping point comes, woman moves to the forefront... no more wars... hey, lets balance the budget, you have been doing it for years... and all our little girls are being educated while the boys are playing video games, which if you stop the wars, there are no planes for that type of behavior to be useful... we are growing taller and strong everyday... and hey we do love men, just don't need them to be in charge any more... tell me sir what to you know to do, can you balance the check book, no, ohhhhhh I'm sorry, can you make peace with your neighbor, ut oh, you haven't learned to do that yet, so sorry, how bout do you know how to provide for your family without striving... no... well here dear take this pill and it will make you feel better.... six months later... dear did you take your meds,good for you.... I'll be late tonight I have a meeting at five, oh yes I would love that new dish you fixed last week with the fried egg plant, chicken and pasta... don't forget to clean the bathrooms and mop the floors... love you to... oh honey don't look so sad... I like it like this much better... I'l bring you something to cheer you up tonight, would you like flowers or chocolate or both... lol...lol...lol don't cry, let me hold you a minute... see you are all better now... I'm sorry men didn't value what you all had... but now things are different... hope you have a good day... hope is that soap you have been watching, do you still enjoy that...

    • izettl profile image
      Author

      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      J~ this is great info- I've saved it. Wonderful background info and I have some to add of my own pertaining to this, but later...we'll get to all that soon.

    • profile image

      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Unlike European Americans, gender or sexual divergence did not threaten the Indians. Berdache males in particular often became healers, surgeons, counselors, therapists, high religious priests, shamans, witch doctors and medicine men. They were regarded as a kind of "holy men." Berdache males could also become one of the multiple wives of Indian braves and, in rare cases, of genetic females who became "men" by proving themselves as warriors. The term berdache" is, of course, a generic one, as they were called by different -terms depending on the tribe. They were "winktes" in the Lakota Sioux, "Nadle" in Navaho tribes, "Shamans" in the Mojave and "Mahu" in the Polynesian culture of Tahiti.

      Since the berdache could mix characteristics of both genders, they were viewed as having a special status as if "blessed" by the gods. They were thought to be the "middle gender," and seen as prophets and visionaries having an almost mystic and psychic vision into the future. They were often consulted by tribal elders and chieftains because they were thought to have a kind of "universal knowledge" and special connection to the "great spirit."

      It is extremely interesting to note that the concept of a "transsexual" is a Western one based on the notion that there are two "opposite" sexes with distinct, culturally "Approved" gender characteristics. Western philosophy seems much narrower in this respect than Eastern philosophies as it allows only for strict stereotypes. Setting up a rigid dichotomy of paired opposites allows little tolerance for cultural and social variances of what is perceived to be masculine or feminine. With these narrow constrictions on all behavior, it is little wonder that we live in such a neurotic and violent society. With little room to express the total spectrum of human emotion from nurturing to assertive behavior, people have to hide or ignore some of the basic emotional outlets ascribed to one gender or the other. Only recently do we see a social acceptance of men "in touch" with their feminine side, or assertive women who, as the book says, "...run with the wolves."

      Because of these polar stereotypes, people who are merely dissatisfied with their GENDER ROLE feel they have only ONE alternative: to anatomically become the other sex through surgery. Since this was impossible before the surgical techniques and synthesized hormones of the 20th century, Native American Indians allowed for more gender role flexibility without the social stigma of our modern culture. In our myopic modern society, restrictive western social values see only two diametrically opposed possibilities, yin OR yang, rather than the unifying combination of both in an androgynous mix. "Wendy Susan Parker"

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      J~ I'm keeping this up too...forever or as long as they'll let me. I am working on saving some hubs and comments to my own computer file.

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      There's some stuff here also, do you have these saved somewhere besides here and again if you are not going to keep it, I want to for myself...I so appreciate you writing this hub... and the change of name helped me a lot...

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      I am a planner and yes I need to get a plan to all this. Right now it seems like zillions of thoughts everywhere so organization to it all is necessary.

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      JEanine 6 years ago

      I Know you are not afraid....let me know how and when you want to write

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Jeanine~ you know I'm not scared to put this info out there- it is valuable and perhaps could be a book before it's time when in 50 years people look back and see some truth to this.

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Yes, I think it has to be written... but will be scary because it's contrary to conventional belief... if you can call SRS conventional... now that's funny...trans being the main stream and two spirit emerging as the radical thought...lol..lol..lol

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Jeanine~ this is one where I believe the medical community does not have the answers. However, we all want everybody to fit into one box nice and neatly so they convince them to be one or the other- who could have the best of both worlds? Who could understand that?

      You know I'd love to be the one to put some literature out there about this. In fact. I have another hub in mind inspired from your comment above.

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      jeanine 6 years ago

      Yes, it is a fight, also a fight within ourselves as two spirits... most live out of site and are very aware of the hatred that exist.... the saddest part is there is a lack of published knowledge of what we are and were like, there is a history but not recent... therefore there is no info for the young, they are immediately carted off to therapy and then are told the only relief lies in changing your sex... which is the kiss of death for my kind... it helps build a sub culture, turning some of the brightest emotional minds into mush... placing the new TS on a path at the worst, of destruction or at best I a very confused partial woman and man... who can live as a man all of our lives and then declare I am really a woman inside... I am neither.. and I am both... either the psychosis is real and we are mental... or there is a person split by the spirit... if it is that latter... there are no hospitals or care that are developed in emotional expertise... except the church... who soundly rejects any of the ideas that there might be another that God created to help the entire earth see who He is... God forbid that there might be a missing link found... we are a great tribe and will some day be back to visit... this green earth... for now our only peace is to be within the spirit... "for He holds me closer that a mother holds her child, singing sweet songs of love and peace to me.... telling me I am the best, helping me walk where all men stand... loving me... loving you... encouraging of us... telling us... we can"...

      "I cling to my love and know He comes for me... no earth... no heaven... only love... heal me my love..."

      to understand the spirit, one must be in it... "peace to all of you, your children and peace to your marriage... for marriage is as close to our lives as single gender folks ever get to experience... it works the same now that the medical community has been trying to help us... "every ones calling for divorce... when TS divorce from themselves... they kill their mate... the other side of their spirit... sad but it's where the medical community has taken us... I will not go, nor will I remain quietly on the side lines while people who have no clue, continue to destroy my tribe...

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Jeanine~ i agree- you're surely onto something, jesting or not- lol. You'd think people would want that happy medium, but both sides fight it...interesting.

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      jeanine 6 years ago

      It's to scary to write the truth, both sides hate you... the straights because it makes them think it's to close to normal...and they might catch it... lol... the TS community because it insinuates they acted rash or to quickly... the similarities between TS and two spirits are very close at this juncture...most two spirits are homosexual... but the kicker is they are usually in a homosexual relationship with a woman... another woman as we actually see our selves... which appears to the entire population as a heterosexual couple...most two spirits are unlike Trans in they are for the most part celibate but massively and intimately involved with God... I think these reasons are why they didn't try and save us...to normal to be that gifted... no one could possibly know, oth genders right...lol...lol... oh my... surely I jest...

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      The thing I think my dad found out was his male side did not die with the surgeries. It is best to embrace both and most do not- so sad to me. The info isn't out there- as a society people accept homosexuality and heterosexuality more than bi-sexuality. They don't understand and want people to be one or the other.

      Good analogy between your tribe and the gorillas- I can see your point.

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      jeanine 6 years ago

      didn't they do body experiments on the Jews....

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      jeanine 6 years ago

      yes and that doing away with the other is murder... to the two spirit... for my tribe it's more akin to killing ones sister... I love my sister, and the thought of doing away with part of myself would cripple me for life...I know how harsh that sounds... but the reality is we are the mature of the tribe... but TS are a fun loving bunch and really good people... misguided perhaps but at least we are talking about another type that falls close to their group... yet you get a chance to see what a two spirit acts likes and thinks because of my parents... they never let own that I wasn't the most normal boy on the planet... I thought I was just one of the guys....lol...Nathan Lane is so funny in that movie... it is interesting that before all of our medical success of late.... when we had no help.... we were advisers to kings and queens... makes the think and weep... for if I am correct and I believe I am....it's worse than what they did to the Indians in the Americas....take a moment and look at it like you would an endangered species... they saved Gorillas.... why didn't save us... my whole tribe is emaciated... I weep ...still how could they and who would it be, that would have that kind of power to be able to perpetrate such a crime on my kind....correct, only one power that big... it was in Rome at the time and still is...they also canonized the Bible we read....fast forward to the tribe who is both... keeper of God's secrets, and seers of Grace and Mercy from a beautiful God... when we all lived in Eygpt before and fore told of Jesus coming.... if there was an effort to depose us... how would you do it.... in Germany they reprinted the books... told another History.... singled out certain people, and printed that they were evil or in sin...

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      jeanine 6 years ago

      again you know my beliefs have me traveling a road that is narrow.... I believe with all my heart that two spirits will grow in respect from all groups... commanding more respect for our tribe... having suffered to stay in the body given,the gift that we received is patience... the one thing that most TS do not obtain until after SRS... to wait commands respect for we are at the frontier of a reawakening, "and the first shall be the last and the last shall be the first".... I believe TS full transitions are like the astronauts.... they are exploring where we will land... so to speak...

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      you can apply that statement in a few ways- very insightful. I feel like TS try to get rid of their other half rather than embrace the strength in both.

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      it should read the kink that has always been present in the two spirits life.....slowly begins to build a new reality and that....becomes their new intimacy

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Yes, I'm sure the main challenge is Testosterone... or the lack of it...lol... leads to peace... instead of the male mantra of testosterone leads to piece...lol... it is the one thing that bothers your basic Trans from the time they are young... two spirits on the other hand learn to live with the pain of living within the given body... estrogens do help rid the angst from both gender variant groups.... and yes the two spirit individual if he choose to live with a woman, mimics a more plutonic lesbian relationship... in that they do have share many of the sme interest... yet when needed for intimacy, there is the natural advantage of having God given equipment... Both are elated to use such a gift, but the gift is better in many ways in that it is not as demanding as a testosterone driven male.. therefore the kink that has been present all of the two spirits life is slowly their intimacy... an understanding beyond normal boundries...

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      J~ I honestly think thats why I understand lesbians better than gay men. Many lesbians get to that point later in life because the relationship and the person and how they feel around them all matter the most. It takes on a spiritual context or at least a deeper involvement. With men and women, you have the male usually fighting for sex and the woman fighting for intimate connection on a deeper level. It's almost always unbalanced- it's a wonder any of us get it together.

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Izetti, you are so right in that in certain circumstance, the spirit moves us to another place... and there might be a same sex relationship for each of us... Attraction gets us here, but the spirit allows for the lift, off of the ground so to speak... then that becomes more attractive, pushing through to more spiritual highs... the contagiousness of those two and their results on us as emotional beings are what we often call..."Love" early on attraction varies for different individuals, so perversive behavior or a kink may occur.. driving the individual to try or experiment with so called abnormal behavior... the problem arises when one suppresses the original idea.such as don't act like a girl or as in your case a Tomboy because of your stature... the same happens when one thinks thoughts outside of ones accepted gender... yet as soon as the idea is made private, the host so to speak... the person is bound for trouble... the more one become comfortable with the idea, the more natural the thoughts return to those feelings... is how we get here in the gender world I think... the OCD is so prevalent that's the two become one... with the OCD driving most of the trip...

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      very good Wheel, there are places in the spirit that are not remembered... there are times one seems to connect to the spirit.... two spirits individuals seem to find or stumble upon... doors to another place... so many of us have never been taught we even exist... that it is terrifying to young men and women... also terrifying to their parents... to the point therapy actually has had the audacity to suggest that we choose one or the other in order to make us feel better or whole as the medical community calls it... For profit and perversion doctors have convinced two spirit individuals to seek surgery on their bodies, preaching lets make you less so you can be more... what's wrong with that statement... Since the the medical... we were among the elite, advisers to kings, when we were a great tribe unafraid of the world... Keepers of the secrets of God... since the medical community has been helping us by turning us into Transsexuals, we have become the freaks of the world... or have become a tribe hidden in suburbia. also you are very close in that the spirit seems to be universal so the gender may be neutral or may not...you are right if one is imprinted with love of someone so close... they leave part of themselves... Paul in the Christian Bible speaks of the law of the spirit having the ability to set one free from the bondage of the body...you can tell he is trying to do that for himself when he gets thrown in prison.. in Romans 7:14 he is presenting the question of why, but the time he is in prison in Philippines He is practicing... when you read what he writes, you realize He is not in prison, he has transcended the chains...

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Spirit matters more than gender. With true love, it is the spirit of a person we fall in love with. Attraction is what gets us to discover who the person is and often attraction is dictated by our sexual preferences. I would also not entertain the idea of a same sex relationship, but that doesn't mean the ONE isn't available in the opposite sex for me. I am close to the people whose spirit I enjoy and revel in the most- when it just shines through!

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      Dennis Thorgesen 6 years ago from Central United States

      Most of the people I am currently around do everything in their power not to let society completely dictate their children's lives. Good parents really don't want their children to grow up too fast.

      Since everyone of us is part of society the only way changes can be made is one person at a time.

      Jeanie, I probably come close to being this two spirited person you spoke of. This actually started for me with my first love when I was seventeen. We were so close we could actually feel each others pain.

      I would never entertain the thought of being in a single sex relationship but on a spiritual level I became one with first the mother of my first child then my wife. My wife has passed now but part of her will always remain with me.

      Anyone who really knows me see's this and it does affect my thought patterns in the way I deal with other people.

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Wonderful wheelin! I remember as a kid I just wanted to be me. I didn't want to be a woman by the time puberty came along. I wasn't really ready until after high school to be a woman. I just enjoyed having a good time and not worrying about impressing boys or being uncomfortable in girly clothes. I am all woman today, but I can certainly relate to the gender dilemma some face. Society would have little girls grow up at age 8 or 9- scary since I'm raising a daughter.

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Good for you free wheeling and since you were raised Indian, I hope you have discovered two spirited people... what you describe as dressing in those clothes of early childhood remind me of two spirits.. I am two spirited and I think you will love the study... we are people who live within our own bodies but have two choices, in centuries past, we were great spiritual advisers to Kings, Queens and world leaders because we have an honest opinion of the female and male perspective.... not one or the other but both.... not completely one or the other but complete being both... I hope this helps...

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      Dennis Thorgesen 6 years ago from Central United States

      Having been raised in Southern California I have been aware of these things most of my life. For myself I knew I was going to be a man from my first memory. From age four to age thirteen I spent more time with women than men.

      In my early years you might say my dress standards were neither male or female when I was where I was at home. Home was not a building to me, it was the wide open spaces. To this day I am more at ease in an uninhabited forest or on a desert with people far away. My choice of clothes would be once again those of my youth if it was possible. The only people I ever shared this life with were female. Even though I "did amazing things" when I was with my real father he never saw the true me.

      It is my belief that understanding people who want to be whoever they is easy for me. I want to be who I am even if that is not entirely possible. Necessity dictated that I become a new person which at the time was easy because I had no memory of who I was before.

      We are each formed and shaped by others and I have seen this even in what used to be considered "gender confused" people. Everyone I have talked to tell of a specific incident usually in their early childhood which was the deciding factor in what gender they wanted to be from that day forward.

      For me this incident happened at age four when I attacked my stepfather while he was physically abusing my mother. This incident and the talk my mother had with me after made me want to be a man and a protector of women. My stepfathers reaction to this changed all our lives forever. He was never again given the chance to abuse my mother or hurt me in any way. This because a small male child stood up to him and said NO more.

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Family is a child's early impression of the world and these parents are giving a false impression. You are so right, J, about the discovery of life rather than a clinical and controlled setting. From my perspective, it's like a psychological experiment, but with very high stakes.

      I also read an article about a pre-school that does this. The kids know each other as "friend" not her and him or other sex specific pronouns. I'm not really sure why the experimentation with this on kids. I'm all for parents being open, this helps a child feel comfortable being who they will be, but not all out control such as this.I believe they think they are being open, but it's quite the opposite.

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      jeanine 6 years ago

      yes and also, to over see the child to that degree, leaves the relationship of the parents wide open to failure, one must love the one you are with, or the one you are with, will run the risk of loving with someone else... lol... I love the idea of the child having a real choice but to clinical and you lose the discovery in life... and I loved seeing and still do love seeing my children find their own way. Parents are they to help and guide.. I lean towards helping more than the guiding.... one can get in trouble imprinting ones on dreams on the child, if we are not careful

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      I agree Danielle- they have good intentions. But I agree too Jeanine because that is quite an overbearing control over a child's environment especially when the real world is not like that. It's unrealistic. If parents keep an open mind then that sets the tone to how kids may view the world, which is healthy. If parents control the child's world early on then that sends a negtaive message about the world.

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      It also lends itself to over protective parenting... I wonder which of the parents have gender issues... the OCD that sometimes accompanies this behavior would look a lot like these decisions that they are making... for the child...

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      danielleantosz 6 years ago from Florida

      Very nice! I saw that article about storm, and I am still not sure how I feel about it. On one hand, I think "Good for them!", but on the other hand you are right. Perhaps they are drawing too much attention to it. Mabye a child should not be used to experiment on our thoughts of sexual identity. I think they have the best of intentions...only time will tell. On a lighter note, does limit sitter options, since they said even the grandparents are kept in the dark.

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      You have this perspective that comes from somewhere deep and I understand it, sometimes I even think that way, but can't express it and put it in words like you do.

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Thx Izettl... you are the best... I appreciate you so much letting me express a different look on gender...

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      JEanine~ give us what you are famous for- THe beautiful perspective you have. Thank you for the balance.

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      jeanine 6 years ago

      and my sister held me and caressed my soul as a young boy...whispering, love will conquer all... twins within one body, confused by a world who didn't see her... nor care that she held him close... so he hid her in his heart until that faithful day... she overcame her shy behavior and decided to openly display... he life a new, her life for you, her life in me... in all I would and wanted to do...

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Two Spirited....a tender caress of woman's longings for love with the understandingly strong embrace of a willful man..

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      Sun360 6 years ago

      Nice and interesting article.

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Grace, you are so close... it's scary, for the dilema for all two spirited people is just as you described, if we transition, we have to put down one of ourselves and become one or the other... and god knows if you could change your genitals by reading , as a kid I would have read the entire library...lol... and that's how we all feel when we are young... I must a girl... I must be a girl... but as one grows older and has been managed by loving parents, loving friends and finally a loving lover, I slowly realized I am both... now the question is ... it that crazy... hell yeah it is... but if the small boy learns to deal with both of the egos that seem to be present and starts to grow as a person... is it wrong that he found a way to care and love himself, not feeling the shame that many have had to suffer... at first I was sure I was the only one... and that bothered me... yet as I began to read, I realized there were others like me and not freaks or people that were made fun of, but men with gifts, traveling with Kings and queens even special quarters on Cleopatras ship on the nile...

      Amanda I love this statement...The spirit enters a body, the body is not neutral, it's male or female....and if you believe Christ spirit enters us... that would be a def male spirit in a female body sometimes... if He is visiting you... that's what happened to tribe many years ago... to simple for you maybe... but that's how it feels... for you next time you are at church or where ever you meant your God... try and see if you feel it... when you know you are in the presence of God... take a close look inside and see if God makes you act in differently than you normally would... it's like that for us...we just seem to be aware of it all the time...

      maybe this will help... "God sends some pretty crazy people some times to deliver a message and we have all known some of these folks... here's the question... were they crazy before they heard from God... or did hearing from A God make them crazy"...lol.. I think the latter... so if you see me now... years after I have been dealing with both of my so called egos... then you are gonna know I'm crazy... but what if I'm happy this way... and that's brings us to our society being afraid of any one that's to happy...lol... no just joking... but you see my point I hope... it is the binary system that wreaks so many two spirited lives... my case was handled so carefully by my parents that I was married for years before I knew what I had was even offensive to anyone... I love all of you for even looking at the possibility of this being a real thing... it has been for me all my life but I understand it is quite freaking to some...

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      grace~ great point. i identify with female very much so, BUT I grew up as a tomboy and probably wouldn't have appreciated the lady like attire and behavior expected of eras past. I can relate to your comment for sure. They would have considered something to be wrong with me in the victorian times- lol.

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      graceomalley 6 years ago

      Personally i feel very strongly identified with femininity, but I think this is easier for me because of the time I was born into. I'm also oriented as an intellectual - that is how i process things and understand the world. There were plenty of times in history when being intelligent, and liking to read and study, were considered not feminine. In victorian times people (even doctors) thought that if a woman used her brain, her uterus would atrophy & she would be rendered infertile. If I had lived in a time like this, i would have felt a great deal of conflict about being female. My society would be telling me that in order to embrace one aspect of myself, i would have to reject another aspect of myself. I think this would have been very painful. I imagine transgender people experience something like this dilema.

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Tom and FIS (Bob)~ why can't we add another box- I see hispanic choices creeping up everywhere. For Spanish, press...are you hispanic...all these choices are everywhere i go now. If someone is born both sexes, and it's more common than you know guys, then does that mean it's not a valid consderation for having another sex option on a form?

      FIS, is right about some stuff here. I've read about several cases when someone is bor a hermaphrodite and the parents decide which gender the baby will be and it was usally kept secret until when the child grows up and feels opposite of their outside genetalia. Great link too- very intersting Bob.

      Tom, I totally accept your opinion, You know me I put mine out there as well and I do respect you for that, but the simple fact is that not everyone is even born with one or the other. I don't know about sexual orientation, but I do kno that if someone is born with both physically then someone could be born with both psychologically. I'm with you, I like black and white and live with a very black and white thinking ex-marine husband, BUT I've been shown in my life too many times where there is definitely a gray area whetehr I choose to accept it or not. One thing I learned in my psychology studies is how complex humans are and, for example, in a complex math equation there are more variables than one plus one.

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      TCDesign~ thanks so much for the comment and support.

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Amanda~ they aren't all gender specific. If one in 100 or 300 (can't remember the statistic)babies are born with BOTH sexes, don't you think one in 100 or so people could be born spiritually and/or mentally both sexes? Are you as a person, defined by your sex or is that society? Are you female or are you Amanda- nope, you are not your name (are you like all Amandas?) nor your sex, you are who you are, who your spirit is -not defined by sex or name or any other labels.

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      jeanine 6 years ago

      FIS, I am like that I am neither, sometimes I am one sometimes I am both, but always aware of the other and that's the difference I think, Gender varient people are just aware that there is someone or something else there with them... now if you don't have that, you are sure that it doesn't exist until I can prove it, unfortunately we are at the frontier of gender exploration, so some of the things we do as a community are stupid, cutting before you know is one of those, cutting after you know is another... I am two spirited, so I live within my own body

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Tom, I can see that, and understand completely, yet if you were subjected to a happen stance that you were with the bull and won when you were younger, it would affect how you saw that event for the rest of your life... and that's what happens to most of us... we just grow up not realizing the rest of you know who you are... and oh my, I love how forceful of man you seem to be...lol... just joking... but I know you are a thinker and that's all I'm asking you to see... it's my burden not yours and you certainly have the right to an opinion... one has to ask what is the attraction to killing the bull for the fighter... after the dance has been so beautiful, he kills his partner... very Macho I guess... love is cruel and all that jazz...lol...

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      tom hellert 6 years ago from home

      J,

      You right- I am and always have been a male-I do live in a world now where i am trying to remove the gray from it. yes, I don't know what it is like- I also don't know what it is like to jump from an airplane,or fight a bull- that does not mean I cant indicate my opinion on it or that I can say how to do it....I may not "understand the mindset of a bullfighter", but I know I don't wanna fight bulls. sounds close minded but it is still true.

      TH

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      FIS 6 years ago

      Hi Tom,

      I don't know if it's that silly. Here is a link to a very short article on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale, while it may or may not be interesting there are links at the bottom of it to several more scales. Now, these are all about orientation rather than trans-gender but it seems to me that if orientation is less clear cut than we think, it may be true that gender is less clear cut as well. Iz brings up in the comments that there are more Hermaphrodites born than we usually know about. I don't know if when their parents get surgical procedures to assign them a gender whether those procedures are merely cosmetic or whether or not they do things to assign levels of things like estrogen or testosterone and whether or not these procedures deal with internal organ differences or just external. Male and female brains are different, what are the brains of hermaphrodites like. I just don't know. I'm just ignorant on the medicine of it all.I do know that there are trans gendered people out there who want to be considered neither male nor female. Then of course there are Eunuchs in the Hindu tradition.

      For those who are interested Iz's idea that the Bible claims the soul is genderless probably comes from Mat 22, Mrk 12 and Luk 20.

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      jeanine 6 years ago

      Very good Tom... I appreciate that opinion... but you are one so it is not hard for you to be one or the other... I have visited much further down the road... where one wrestles so with both, neither wins.... then the travel takes on a certain patina, there pass mental disease, coming the rest in a duo of emotions, the tenderness of a woman... the logic of a man...

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      TCDesign 6 years ago from Southern California

      Great topic, great hub! Something that needs to be talked about more!

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      tom hellert 6 years ago from home

      FIs,

      Thats silly - you are one or the other its up to the individual to determine - you can leave it blamk and i bet 1/2 the people would not even notice or they would ask... and then you still have to choose-if you want you can click both- but you will have to elaborate or choose eventually...people are something- by choice or in reality... you are something - the box does not say- what will you be in 18 months....

      the light bulb is on or off- the there is NO REASON FOR A third box- you are what you feel you are you are what you want to be.... If your a guy dressed as a girl - you can say your a girl if your pre op- put down what you want- if your post op you are what you have been made into...No one can make the decision for you - your heads or tails- the coin never lfreely lands and stays on its side by natural means...

      TH

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      FIS 6 years ago

      what if the choice is to add another box to the form?

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      tom hellert 6 years ago from home

      FIS,

      Everyone at one time or another must make a choice-to quote the philosopher Lee-"If you choose not to decide - you still have made a choice."Eventually we all must choose a path.

      On a minimalist account, free will is the ability to select a course of action as a means of fulfilling some desire. David Hume, for example, defines liberty as “a power of acting or of not acting, according to the determination of the will.” (1748).

      TH

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      FIS 6 years ago

      Thing is Tom, some may decide to check the one that isn't obvious. Some others might decide not to check one at all.

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      tom hellert 6 years ago from home

      Iz,- FIS

      Good point as well but don't forget they only have two boxes for SEX-

      []male

      []female

      gotta check one-and only one...

      just saying...

      TH

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      FIS 6 years ago

      Amanda, just a thought but, perpetuating the species?

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      Amanda 6 years ago

      izettl - then why are bodies gender specific if it doesn't matter what we are (male or female)?

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Amanda~ THe spirit exits the body when we die, and it is not male or female nor is it male or female before it enters a body so there is a separation to consider. THe spirit is not the body- it is different and important to consider both.

      Jeanine~ some interesting stuff and I will be diving into it more- it's fascinating! My little one,Haley, is doing good. THe attitude marks her being 3 almost 4. Oh the attitude, but I reel her in for certain behaviors and recognze others are a way of her sparating and being more independnt.Oh, life...I think she is more than two-spirited and is over spirited- lol! She;s got enough spirit for all of us.

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      Amanda 6 years ago

      The spirit enters a body, the body is not neutral, it's male or female.

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      psyche...I still can't spell... sorry

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Harv, I meant Tom, but had Mike with no pants on my mind at the time I get all you guys mixed up...lol...sorry...

      @Izetti... Thanks for the outlet, there is so much to know about the human Physic... my own believe is "the reservation" was not just happen stance. Our Creator put's all opportunity within our reach, like the most concerned parent on earth, it's the breath breathed into each of us that is eternal, plus it's what each of us have for our own kids... How is she anyway.. I know she'll be four and some of the angst disappears around that time... from her view,it's good to be queen...lol... so pick that up and give her what she... what is the word I'm looking for... give her what she demands...lol

      Well, we are in agreement in that society and the med community has done a number on us,changing our history so to speak. I believe a very well meaning Harry Benjamin began the ball rolling in that direction because it gave license to experiment (cut) on a human being and because it was such an outrageous idea, the medical community jumped on it and oh my, there is so much truth there that many of us are much healthier and that's all they were concerned with and rightfully so at that time...

      but now there are many of us that have studied the words and the feeling of others and compared them to our own feelings and some are not a match... understand... so as I watched my own help group struggle over these last few years, there is massive pain and struggle within our group. I keep saying there has to be more to this "being complete" that each of us so desire, more than meets the eye... to be complete means to be inclusive of the whole and if we as two spirits choose one or the other, well you can see with the naked eye that we are not whole. The idea is so ingrained in the community that any other idea is immediately frowned upon... There is a Dr Anne Lawerence a Trans in SF that has embraced a few new ideas and when she did she went from being a major spokes person for the community to being an outcast... when all she really said was there are some of us that have a fantasy of being in love with the idea of being a woman instead of being women... it hit the fan, partly because everyone has fought so hard to have any rights, there is a fear that we would have to give up some of the little we have accomplished... the reason I am intrigued with any new ideas is because the old model is not complete for someone like me... what do you do with me and those like me... my kind dirties the waters in that it's my belief, if we have lived in our birth body for any length of time, it is to late to catch the singles train, the binary system is on that track, one must go to the next ramp and see who we really are and I think that's where all of my kind are waiting... With Patience of a loving mother we wait, with the stamina of a Kenyan male runner we will persist, and with the love and tenderness of a woman in the strong arms of a man, we let go of the pain and fall into the arms of eternal harmony between the two... that being said, we were great council at one time... when a young couple comes and has questions about marriage for instance, the two spirit has real answers for both the bride and the groom...

      I do so thank you for including me in that circle of friends...

      @ Tony.. I am so happy for you seeing it in black and white for your own life... for in this world right now, the binary system is the system we have all embraced, have wonderful dear

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Tony~ incorrect statement- more than you may think are born adrogynous with both sexes.

    • izettl profile image
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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Is "Mike" Tom- must be.

      JEanine~ "she chose to be less in your eyes to be more in her own..." there you go again with crazy (as in really good) words. It hits home for me. My feelings about my dad is that he was effected by society and medical community to believe that if he did not feel comfortable in a man's body then he must be in a female's- some trans ma be like that and others not, but it should be known one can be two and stronger in two. What I found interesting about two-spirited is these persons, within their tribe or community, were well respected and held high positions such as healers, etc. Tht fascinates me. I grew up on an Indian reservation and mch of my high school was comprised of Native Americans so I will look into the native american idea of two-sprited some more- perhaps a hub for a later day...

      Jeanine, you know me well from what you say. For one thing, my mom used to tell me I was a pied piper, attracting people and animals. Also as a waitress I had lots of 'regulars', but I love to get to know people and learn their stories- it's always fascinated me. However,I have tight circle of people close to me whom I let in- even here on hubpages.

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      tony0724 6 years ago from san diego calif

      The only thing I know about gender is there are males and females,period.

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      Harvey Stelman 6 years ago from Illinois

      Jeanine, No argument, bue who is Mike? H

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      No Harv, I'm good with you being you and me being me... I don't find any ones beliefs offensive as long as they are peaceful... you don't write dumb but I understand the write, self deprecation can lead to many places of comfort, yet I suspect that you very strong in your foundational beliefs... I love the banter you and Mike exchange, very playful and boy like... lets splash the girls kinda feeling... any ways I love Izetti for addressing some of these issues, she has a cool mind for this type of write don't you think

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      Harvey Stelman 6 years ago from Illinois

      Jeanine, Hey your talking about my people, let my people go. Leaving the tribe can lead to bad things, look what happened to Jesus! I know many will find that offensive, I hope you don't. I am not PC, I am an equal opportunity hater. The only one I hate more,is me. I've had to live with me all my life, can you believe it? I am the dummest person to ever live in my body. H

      IZ, I'm sorry to hear about your husband, I already knew about you. May G-D grant you both health. H

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      graceomalley~ That's awful about your pain, but it's nice to hear someone else who experiences the same. I need to train our baggers I guess- lol. That is really nice of your local grocery store baggers to automatically do that. It is weird to see how people misunderstand that which they can't see or understand and oddly enough they seem to assume the worst. As in our case, they assume we're rude, lazy, etc. But I'll get over it (smile).

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      graceomalley 6 years ago

      izettl - I have severe chronic pain, and sometimes I wish it came with a sign. I get the dirty looks too. I take my 10 year old daughter grocery shopping with me b/c pushing a grocery cart is hard for me & can set off the pain. Most people just can't understand something like that. One group of people that is nice are the baggers at my local grocery store. They figured out I need help & now always walk me out to the car & put the bags in. I don't even have to ask anymore. And most of them are teenagers. It's nice to see.

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Good, because the more you understand the more you can access the door into a new place with her... and it is her now... she chose to be less in your eyes to be more in her own... and that's not a bad thing, it's just another thing that happens... I believe there is a better way to exercise both by not having to change so much... it's the binary system that has bamboozled us all... I absolutely love my Endo, very bright and informed on gender issues, but I also know because I have it, I will be the one who tells him how far one can go, and that one being me... so it is very dangerous... because we are all enamored with her.. she resides in all of us... and He is aware that she created him, so that makes him answer to her when the dam breaks... the difference for me has been the dam was not as high... and after speaking with you, perhaps there are others we could help with a clearer view... one must look to the American Indian to see the power the two spirited person had, Egypt to Africa in the days before Christianity, we ruled the world. Now here's the question, why did they hate us so... was it we carried the freedom of all man and womankind to live and love one another. who we are not, what we may be, for if one is both, you do not know which you will be... and when you are young and trying to grasp it... you see clearly on both sides, it's amazing if you have had good guidance to help you understand the spirit... and my Dad told me about the spirit... the gift to love life and live your life and live the love that becomes your life... a dream come true so to speak, so she is pleased and stops bugging him about being a woman... many trans discover this after the trip down memory lane with her favorite crush, her doctor... finally to discover we are the same person before and after surgery... I hope that makes sense... I know I appreciate you addressing it.. look you have all of us clamering around you...lol...lol... and we like it... crazy Chick... I bet you were the one that did everything but the dreaded ... IT...

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Jeanine~ I absolutely agree that not enough is known about two-spirited or both gender identities. If people who judge have the problem then it is their job to understand it better. I want to open that up for those that need a differen tperspective. For me, I had a problem with my dad for at least the first couple of years after his change and I could not understand it through him- that was a dead end. But you helped me to understand my dad very well. Knowing him, I wouldn't have put him in either male or female category- he is very much both. Why he got the change? I think he was misinformed (society, medical community)that if you are not comfortable as one then you must be the other so he changed. I can not tell you though, how much I can relate to two-spirited to my dad. It all makes sense.

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Jeanine~ my irony in the title didn't go as planned. I wanted to get the point across that gender (or variations within)isn't the problem, it's the people, society, the stigma, etc. It was supposed to have some irony somewhere in it, but that failed and the title was bugging me so I had to change it- hope this is a little better.

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Izetti, thanks for changing the name of the hub... you are so aware and I appreciate you... because that's what it is... a misunderstanding within ourselves and because we need someone to notice, we often go with the change, when we would be just as happy if someone, anyone, were there to try and understand, it's what happens. we dream while we are awake, so it's recallable... think about it, what would your life be like if you could recall your most enjoyable dream everyday of your waking life... It's what happens... some of us tell everyone early... and those are two spirited... some of us... are taught to be ashamed and never tell anyone...and those are trans...

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      Oh Tom... I didn't know you had died so I will be praying for all hree of you... and pray for me ...please...

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      Jeanine 6 years ago

      I agree Izetti, they are some funny guys... I like Jewish... I have had a relationship with a Jewish guy for about 8000... He's big on my spiritual side... Jesus is everything to me... I have plenty of Jewish friends though... they run the biz we're in an do an amazing job...

      I appreciate you writing about two spirits... and I am comfortable with who I am... so thanks so much... it does make sense that we are more and the medical community in good faith are trying to help us... but the way I see it, for me at least, not everyone... I would be less if I were one or the other... "disillusioned if only a woman... because of the pay, and the constant jockeying for respect... mad at the world if only a man, without the taste of true tenderness, for within myself, "there is the sigh of beauty that surrounds me in my secret gardens... a place where beauty is King and love an aggressively splendid thing"

      Tom I didn't leave you out dear... you should tell her or us... I am far away in the land of OZ so we are here to help you... confession is good for the soul, plus healing is available with each telling... as you tell the story, you say things to us that reflect into your soul... warmth of living invades the heart and the mind... adjusts to become better.. equiped to help others... understanding... one own challenges through helping others...

      we are disabled in some ways... I am very sorry Harv that yours is physical... mine is emotional and I can't even imagine your pain...

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Tom~ I do attract the disabled. My husband was/is when we met. He was injured while in the Marines and honorably discharged. It injured his ego the most- he still deals with not being a lifer marine. But his injuries are having two bad knees- one with 5 major sugeries on it. Now that I have arthritis, we are about even. He has severe nerve pain in one of legs that hasn't been helped by any meds. I'm sure we all wish knee issues were the worst of our pain. He was great when I was at my worst so at least he knows and sympathizes for pain.

      As for you and Harvey, I am just struck by the humor- gets me every time.

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Oh Tom the suspense will kill me!

      Harvey and Tom~ I take comfort in your aches and pains- I certainly have mine, but what sucks most is that by looking at me you would not know the pain I'm in so people always expect me to be 'normal' and I simply can not do some of the things they do.For example, Some doors are difficult me to hold open and I can't hold it open for others behind me so they give me a dirty look or people wonder why I get my groceries taken out by the bagger. It sucks to be looked at as lazy or rude, but it happens a lot. Oh well, screw em'. So you guys have me beat on health issues, but I know your pain.

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      tom hellert 6 years ago from home

      Iz,

      someday maybe someday...

      TH

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Tom H~ come back and tell us what took 23 yrs to make you happy- I'm curious how you got there too.

      Grace Omalley~ THanks for the comment- I bet the blog was interesting. For me, it took me a while to really get to being a confident woman. I saw such confidence in boys and men around me and such a weakness in girls and how they needed men to fulfill them. I always had confidence it just seemed frowned upon because I was a woman. You know, men are encouraged to be confident. Anyway, it probably took me years to figure out how to be accepted as a confident woman and I

      am there, even when my arthritis tried to knock me down a few levels. I can actually laugh about never expecting to get arthrtis in my 30's and wake up feeling 80 in the morning. However, I still believe I move and get around more than most Americans.

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      Lizett 6 years ago from The Great Northwest

      THank you sonia05!

      Oh no JEanine you've met Harvey now- he's something else- a little funny, a little arnory, a little sexy, a lot Jewish! OK maybe lot funny.And Jeanine, this hub was a little for/about you because of what you said about two-spirited people makes a lof sense.

      Harvey and Tom~ Uh thanks for some copliments mixed in with your humor- you guys are truly one of a kinds. "Jewish Sinatra" (good one TH). Harvey I definitely don't mind two boys who never grew up. I married my husband because of his childishness then we got married, he got a job, we had a kid and somehow he doesn't play as much :((

      THanks for playing! we'll have to arrange a play date for Harvey and Tom again soon!