They Want The Same Future Except For The Marriage License - Relationship Advice

I had to sign up just to say that am holding back tears over how heartbreaking this is. I wish men knew the things we keep to ourselves just to not start a fight. And that Canadian guy came back to celebrate having his way has just made ms even sadder. Am glad you are all happy. But I hope you wont regret this. You said "If I gave into stuff that other people wanted me to do, be that my better half or a friend, co-worker or family member, I wouldn't spend much time doing the things I love but rather trying to please everyone else" Yet you are forcing your girlfriend to do the same,mostly coz you know she loves you. As everyone says if 'it doesnt matter' to you and it does to her why not compromise for her happiness?For her peace of mind?! Also I respect her for not wanting children before marriage,because as a child born out of wedlock,the stigma isnt worth it over 'a piece of paper'. And an wiser lady once told me "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?" All the best.

I had to change my username....couldnt remember my password.

Yeah things have been good, we still dont see eye to eye on the need for marriage in the modern world but thats alright. Havnt fought about it for quite some time and were doing really good together.

Sorry had to change my user name,forgot my password. lol

Things are going pretty good....no marriage yet! YAY! We havnt really fought about it for a quite some time. Life is good and were having a good time. She still probably wants a marriage in her future but will see. Im still not interested in it, but she says she would be happy with just getting the piece of paper signed or whatever we need to do and go on with life. Time will tell.

Canadian Guy --- any update? Anything changed? How is it going with your girl?

I agree with Lindsey. I do not see a mortgage on a home that one cannot truly afford as a means to "keep up" with others. I see it as the embodiment of greed in modern society. We all must have more than we need. We don't settle for a home within our means or an older, or cheaper car. We need the top-of-the-line, most expensive, everything. Why? Because we "deserve it." That's part of the dream. I don't see it so much as a way of fitting in but mostly as entitlement.

On the issue of marriage: You may see it as outdated, the path to destruction and the end of passion, etc. But you would be hard-pressed to find any woman today who would not feel regret in never getting to experience the special feeling of being a bride. It is HER day. She is the center of attention, the object of beauty and joy and celebration. This may all tie back to entitlement, but it is ingrained in a woman's brain that being a bride is a key part of life's experience. I've found this to be true in hard-core punk rock girls, to small town religious types. In my opinion: Weddings are the most joyous occasion in any culture. It is a time to gather family (which isn't a funeral!) and to celebrate life and love. It is a beautiful ritual and here is my favorite part: It can be tailored to meet the needs of the individuals involved. Marriage doesn't have to mean one thing that translates to all couples. I think marriage should be different for all couples. It is important to discuss what sort of marriage sounds realistic for each individual. For instance, many men see marriage as the loss of freedom and independence. On the contrary, many women do not want to treat their man any differently just because one day he is a boyfriend and the next he is a husband. It just means a little more comfort in planning the future. Sorry for the long post! Great hub.

I just read the hub and all the responses and I just can't believe my eyes! Veronica, your response to Canadian Guy was amazingly intelligent. You tried really hard to show him that "right" is not always correct and it's too bad he doesn't realize that! It seems as if there is a lot of pain and stubborness in this relationship and it breaks my heart. I hope for her sake (and his) that he either finally gets the true point that everyone is trying to get across to him or that she leaves. It will definately take a big shift in one of their mindsets to be able to solve this, I just hope it comes in time to make everyone happy.

We're all adults. No one was forced into buying a house, people chose to overextend themselves for whatever reason--whether it was conformity/keeping up with the Joneses like you think, general greed, attempt to make a fast buck, or doing it because it seemed to be working for others. Perhaps they relied on people they shouldn't have--i.e. mortgage brokers that we telling them to go ahead and do it or friends/family that weren't that financially savvy. But unless people were actually deceived or swindled, then I don't have a lot sympathy. They took a risk and lost. I feel terrible for people that perhaps didn't realize the risk they were taking and just saw the upside without weighing the potential downside (my own brother and sister-in-law are among them), but I can't also see them as total innocents who were wronged. They were willing participants, even if naively or foolishly so. It's terrible that they've been made to take the greater part of the fall, but they don't really have anyone to blame---they could have prevented the whole mess by not getting involved, seeking greater financial education on what risks they were assuming or acting more financially conservative.

But do you have any response or thoughts about some of the other points I raised re: marriage as a social convention and great symbol than the mere religious implications?

Lindsey you said everything I was thinking!

Like would you deny a child a birthday cake because it's a social tradition that has no practicality and is a unhealthy treat? Would you throw away dead relatives in the trash instead of having a funeral because the religious or social ritual means nothing?

I heard this thought before and completely agree with it, marriage should be illegal. Civil unions for all couples regardless of sex is probably the right way to go law-wise but people will still call it a marriage as slang. Or if they are religious they can do their own whatever thing religious people do. Basically I don't care what you call it. Making it "official" is important to women.

If you want to be fair and kind to her you should marry her. Because she wants it. Don't make her make the huge compromise that she may regret later in life when she finds herself older. Either do what she wants (you don't need to agree with her opinion) or let her know that your beliefs are more important than her and any future children and you are the type of person who can never compromise.

Slightly off topic, but Lindsey....how were people trying to make a fast buck by taking out a 50 year mortgage on a 500k house while making minimum wage? They were trying to fit in and keep up with the Jones!

The mortgage companys that let these people with no money try and purchase homes they couldn't afford were trying to make a fast buck, but ended up costing them all huge in the end. So it goes to prove again...trying to fit in for the sake of doing what everyone else does....doesn't work.

Oh, and the housing/economic crisis isn't because people were trying to fit in. It's because people were greedy. They were trying to get something for nothing. Make a fast buck. And the house of cards eventually came tumbling down because the economic model was unsustainable. It wasn't people's urges to conform that drove that foolishness---it was greed.

Canadian Guy -- I guess for me, marriage is simply a bigger commitment than common law marriage or cohabitation is. I, and I think many others, view it as more significant, more serious, more committed and more meaningful. It is a mindful choice---the act of actively choosing to stand up before loved ones, the State and God (if you believe in that) and make a solemn vow to join with another. That means more to me that common law marriage or cohabitation. And I think that is to a certain extent what you see reflect in others' valuations.

We humans use symbols all the time to embody larger, more amorphous concepts. The wedding ring. The state/national flag. Mottos and slogans such as semper fi (always faithful---motto of the US Marines). Rituals and ceremonies---whether that be an anniversary dinner, a birthday party, a funeral or a wedding. They all help us wrap our heads and hearts around concepts that are bigger than us, help us feel connected to greater society through shared experience/ritual, can bring great comfort in times of strife (such as how funeral or burial rites can aid in the grieving process) and great joy in shared happiness. Do you feel all those are foolish and outdated as well? Or just marriage?

Your gf wants to be part of that collective experience. She wants to be a wife. The symbolism, if nothing else, is important to her. So much so, that she will leave you. That's a big deal. Personally, I can't understand how you can't understand this or why you don't seem to want to. You may not agree with it, fine, but you seem to literally be unable to grasp it, and that's a little shocking, not to mention, very sad.

At the end of the day, this all comes back to what Veronica has already so aptly said. Sometimes, you don't really need to understand or agree with it. You only need to understand that it's important to her. It's something that she NEEDS from you as a partner. If you literally don't care, it's just a piece of paper and silly, outdated ritual as you've claimed over and over, this really should be a no-brainer. But it seems as if that is not the case. Being "right" about this marriage principle is more important to you than your gf's heart, happiness and dreams. And that is truly very, very sad. That you'd take something that is so important away from her on principle so you can be "right" is heartbreaking. I hope she one days finds a man that can share her dreams instead of one that only insists that she change hers to accommodate his beliefs.

Hey Lindsey,

Thats my point exactly...why are so many people head over heels for the idea of Marriage? Why is it somthing that so many people want in their lives...to fit in with what society wants? If thats the main reason then I think thats a horrible reason. Look at the world's economic state today, people were living well beyond their means just to "fit in with society" and keep up with the Jones. They couldn't afford the big house and the fancy cars, but they tried to have it all because they wanted to fit in, everyone now knows that was a terrible idea, that cause much more harm then good. Well we didn't over extend ourselves just to fit in, and were in an excellent financial situation because of it. As for the government getting envolved if we were to be married, nothing changes in Canada, we recognize common-law marriage the same as the ancient act of a real wedding, so thats got no bearing on our decision.

So, why are so many people thinking marriage is somthing they need in their life to please other people?

If I gave into stuff that other people wanted me to do, be that my better half or a friend, co-worker or family member, I wouldn't spend much time doing the things I love but rather trying to please everyone else. Stand up for what you belive in! And if other people believe in somthing different but can't explain why...then I have to question the motive behind it.

An old timer once told me...if it makes you happy keep doing it, if it doesn't then don't. And I've asked many people I know. Does marriage make you happy? The responce has mostly been: Definitly not, if you think it will, you better re-think that theory.

A very well written article Veronica. I agree with you, Canadian guy is right. He is. There is no denying it. I like that you don't beat him up on it. I also like that you're trying to show him right isn't everything. This is one of those things that if two people disagree on, they really can't be together. Which is exactly your point. They need to each find people that want what they want.

One more thing---I realize, Canadian Guy, that you may thin that marriage is just a piece of paper. But there are a lot of other people that think it's more than that. Look at the Gay Marriage debate. A big decision just came down in CA recently and the issue may go all the way to the Supreme Court. If marriage were just a piece of paper, why would so many people be fighting so intensely about it? Either wanting to have the right to do it or trying to stop gay people from being married. It must be more than a piece of paper to those folks, as it is to many of us.

How can you not logically deduce that there must be some flaw in your argument? Something that you're not seeing if so many other people see some value in it that you can't seem to recognize?

Canadian Guy---since the heart approach isn't getting anywhere (i.e. sometimes you do things for your partner just because it is really important to him/her even if you think it's ridiculous, irrelevant and silly---when it's important to him or her, sometimes that is simply enough in itself), I'll give you my reasons behind marriage.

I'm not a particularly religious person myself either (I was raised Catholic, which is probably why I'm no longer very religious), but as someone else pointed out, marriage isn't only a religious construct. It has social and governmental implications. Its first origins were not religious but a way to orderly transfer property (often in the form of daughters and dowries), to stabilize social alliances/constructs (such as royal weddings to effectuate a treaty) and form a basic, stable societal unit (the family). Evolutionarily speaking, it has been argued that is arises out the importance for men to assure themselves that the children they raise are their own as opposed to another man's (after all, you always know who the mother is).

Marriage is not only a promise between you and your spouse, it's a contract. And like any contract, it's only as good as the enforcement behind it. Contracts in business wouldn't mean much if there was not court to settle disputes--if parties could walk away from each other with no or little consequences at anytime. When you welcome the State/govt into your personal relationships (i.e. through marriage) there are bigger implications. It's a bigger promise than mere cohabitation. You're agreeing to much more when you marry than when you just live with someone. You tie yourself to them financially as well as emotionally and psychologically. You're recognized as a distinctly different economic unit. Your debts become their debts; your income becomes their income. When one of you is unable to speak for yourself (such as incapacitated due to illness), the other one speaks for you. If you were to get sick and health decisions needed to be made, your unmarried gf may not be able to make those decisions for you as she may not be considered next of kin (granted this varies widely state to state depending on what the common law spousal law states--in California, common law marriage is not recognized at all). If you don't care for some of the aspects of traditional marriage in your state, contract around them---that's what prenuptial contracts are for. You can define the marriage contract almost any way you'd like if you don't like your state's default rights and obligations.

When you're married, it's harder to separate. You can divorce, sure, but it's a much more expensive, lengthy and emotionally draining process than mere moving out of a cohabitation situation. I would imagine most people probably take the decision to divorce much more seriously than the decision to break-up with a live-in gf/bf. As a result, they may try harder to make it work or compromise as they know that it will be harder to undue/end. And for some, they believe that divorce is not an option so they better figure out some way to make it work.

Your commitment to your gf may be this strong. And if it is, congratulations. But where is the harm in letting the rest of the world know that? Especially when it is sooo important to her? What's the purpose of being contrary just for being contrary (btw, this seems very young)? And in many states, to qualify as common law married, in addition to having to live together for a certain length of time, you have to hold yourself out as being husband and wife---if you're already doing that, then why not make it officially accurate? I know you may not think it makes a difference to you personally, but it does make a difference to many, many people out there, including your gf. They will view your relationship differently and may not respect you, your gf/common law wife or children as much depending on the circumstances. I'm not saying it's right or it's the way it should be, but it's the reality nonetheless---regardless of whether you agree that it should be that way.

As Veronica has pointed out, you're choosing to make a statement -- stand on principle. Fine, but it feels foolish to those of us that have been around the block a few more times. Why hurt your gf so badly so you can what? Prove to the rest of the world that marriage is silly and out-dated? That seems cruel, and incredibly foolish. If this truly doesn't matter to you, then you should let it go and give her what she wants because it matters so much to her. If this does matter---you making this political/societal statement on marriage---then it sounds like it's a dealbreaker and you'll both go your separate ways. She'll look for a man who shares similar values in marriage with her and you'll look for someone that shares your views on marriage. Just be sure it's worth it, realize what you're risking for this belief, this principle---the loss of someone that loves you deeply---because it certainly doesn't sound like it is worth it to me.

The argument isn't over a wedding...she agrees with me that a wedding isn't really what she needs or wants. She realizes that marriage today has nothing to do with a wedding. The wedding industry is a whole other issue now a days its got nothing to do with the institution of marriage...its all about a commercialized industry to make money, and many people fall for it. Neither of us see much romance or thrilling moments in blowing your life savings on 1 day of celebration just to prove to friends and family that you love each other. It doesn't matter to us if other people know we love each other, as long as we do. Im not much for movies...more of a country boy that spends time outside, but can't really see a corilation between a wedding and an action movie, lost me with that one.

Im more interested in the thought process behind why people of today want to be married...especially non religious people?...why?

If you want to have a party and tell your friends and family you love each other...then have a party, hell even change your names if you want, but why tie it into an ancient cerimony just because thats what ancient society invented many years ago?

This is a strong case of tunnel vision.

You are not very progressive thinking to assume and affirm for yourself over and over that marriage is only about religion and law. Carl Sagan got married twice.

Marriage is a social tradition. Plenty of atheists get married. There are things that matter to women that may be hard for men to understand. Maybe a lot of it has to do with how people view her and the factors of jealousy/shame and not wanting people to feel pity for an unmarried woman, etc. You should not care how others view you but trust me women care about these things called feelings. I sense that you are incredibly insensitive and so your empathy is weak. That's why you are stuck with your tunnel vision views on this topic and your poor girlfriend is considering staying with you and sacrificing her dignity every day or sadly losing you whom she loves very much to find someone more compatible or willing to share her dreams of marriage.

I was always logical and practical as a child, I knew that the tooth fairy didn't exist and that Santa was not real but I still wanted very badly for my parents to enable me to act out these fantasies. I wanted to partake in these social norms and fit in with my peers, and I wanted to feel that magical wonder even knowing it wasn't exactly "real" but a wonderful social tradition. Marriage is somewhat like that. I am not religious but I want to be married and have a non-traditional wedding as a representation of love, as a sign of good faith and partnership between two people, and as a grand celebration for all the friends and family.

Do you like action movies? People who see them know they aren't real but they are fun. A wedding may not be a thing that actually proves any commitment but they are ROMANTIC and THRILLING, the whole process is very exciting for a woman.

I think your girlfriend also doesn't want the future children to suffer the way that she is right now. She is probably thinking how many more issues would come up regarding them and how your stubbornness will effect parenting.

For both your sakes I hope that you can start to consider one thing.. you don't need to be right to be happy.

Man, this just breaks my heart. Being right in a context like this is so overrated. Especially when it costs you someone that truly loves you (which is far more rare than you may realize right now, Canadian Guy, as you've had her in you life for the past 7 years--it sounds like you've never gone without in this regard and can't truly appreciate what a wonderful blessing it truly is). I want to think, he's only 25 and one day, he'll know better. And when he does, I hope it's not too late. If you lose her over this, it's going to be a really costly lesson.

But as the old adage goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...

I know how my girlfriend feels...confused and unsure of why she really wants to be married other then the fact she thinks thats how she envisioned her life going, without ever stopping to think why? Shes asked to ponder the thought a little while as she to is starting to question....is marriage really relivant?

I hate to see her upset, and hightly doubt she is suffering in anyway. Since she alone says she is having the time of her life together right now. So what more is there to be done on my side...i've done the research and decided this old practice isn't for me. I just hope she can realize nothings going to change with another signed document in our life.

Giving into someone else's opinion because it hurts their feelings, isn't a reason to leave yours alone and jump on board.

Great comments all around. I've seen this happen with a friend of mine too. They were together for 13 years (15 to 28 or so). And he was stuck on the principle too. He couldn't get past it and his gf left (as many of us said that she would, but he wouldn't or couldn't hear it). It seemed like it turned into some weird power struggle. He said he wanted a forever with her, but not to be married. After she left (I don't think he ever thought she really would), he had a complete break-down. She was his everything.

As of now (it's been 1.5 years), she hasn't taken him back and it looks unlikely that she will. It looks like she's moved on and he's out of luck. Canadian Guy, you're on the same path. As Veronica said, what is more important? Being right or having her in your life? Simple choice really.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you avoid my friend's fate. Being "right" has brought him no comfort. It doesn't hug him after a bad day, it doesn't do sweet things to remind him how much he is loved, it doesn't stand by his side when times are tough. It has been the biggest mistake of his life and his biggest regret.

Why are you posting more facts and opinions to support your way of thinking when the article doesn't argue it?

And why no mention of your partner and being a partner and what she wants and why fighting for years and her suffering with this is better? No mention at all. That's pretty cold. No wonder your girlfriend is going to leave you.

You just proved Veronica's point. You're right. So what?

AG

Candian Guy, you left a long comment here continuing your argument that you are right and marriage doesn't mean anything. Nothing in the article argued at all with your point. Veronica said you were right, and this is about being a partner. Your comment doesn't even mention your partner or what she's going through, it just goes on and on and on about why you're right - a point all ready long established. You aren't a partner. You like to hear the sound of your own voice. that poor girl. Not becuase she is right but because she's alone.

so sad.

....

I'm blown away.

Even in his comment there is not one mention about his partner and her feelings. Just more "I'm right I'm right I'm right."

She needs a partner that cares about her feelings, not this.

Hey guys, thanks for the great responses and comments.

It is often the restrictions of society’s old-fashioned view of marriage that can cause it’s very problems and make myself want no part of it. Relationship counsellors discovered that boredom, and taking your partner for granted were the most common manifestation of marital disputes, and often the constraints of marriage as opposed to co-habitation may cause either partner to feel trapped, thus compounding their problems.

The primary focus of marriage is religious in nature to many people. In the current declining popularity of religion in the world, such an institution is simply not representative of the majority beliefs, nor mine. Society is too diverse now to have a moral consensus that goes beyond small groups. Times have changed from the days of our parents being married and will continue to change with new generations to come. The days of marriage in the 21st century maybe numbered, for the most part the question is... how many more years will this "sacred bond of marriage" continue to exist?

Some believe marriage is mostly for insecure people who feel a piece of paper provides security. Well, okay,that may be a bit overboard. Marriage also can have legal advantages not unlike common-law marriage. But marriage should not just artificially make one feel more secure. If you need security you need a better more communicative relationship not marriage. Love that needs a legal document is not love at all in my opinion.

When we break it down to the basics, marriage was invented by human beings many, many, many centuries ago. We don't live by many of the beliefs they had back then...but marriage is still sticking around? This is where I feel people don't do much research on the topic before entering the institution of marriage. Most people have no clue about the many reasons for it, or the traditions of the wedding. They get married because they think thats just what people do. Women were treated as a commodity back then, traded by there fathers and "given away" through marriage to there new found partner. I don't feel like giving into an ancient practice just because its still available today.

The legal constraints that come along with marriage have no bearing on my decision not to be married. I work for myself and deal with many legal constraints in life and business daily. However marriage is definitly on its way out judging by its decline in popularity, Im not the only one starting to question this act and its relivance in todays world....with its many disadvantages, I can't clearly see an advantage to it. Religion has caused many of the worlds problems over the years, there is no disputing that, and marriage is a religion based contract no matter how you look at, even with government getting involved now...so for that reason I can't bring myself to giving into somthing I dont agree with.