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Gehenna

Updated on September 10, 2013
Gehenna today
Gehenna today
Child sacrifices to the pagan god molech by Israel
Child sacrifices to the pagan god molech by Israel
The sieg of Jerusalem A.D. 70
The sieg of Jerusalem A.D. 70

From a Universalists point of view


Christ spoke more about hell, than He did heaven, or so I am told. But did He? In Matthew 15:24 we find Christ saying this.


"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."


Though Christ showed mercy to the faithful gentiles, His ministry was for the Jews alone. This one part in scripture I believe most Christians overlook when attempting to interpret scripture, and I believe that the warnings of Gehenna testifies to my belief. Nowhere in Paul's letters will you find him warning the gentiles about Gehenna. He does speak about a fire in 2 Thessalonians 1,



4 so that we ourselves glory in you in the ecclesias (Churches) of God, for your endurance and faith in all your persecutions and the afflictions with which you are bearing --
5 a display of the just judging of God, to deem you worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering also,
6 if so be that it is just of God to repay affliction to those afflicting you,
7 and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers,
8 in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ --
9 who shall incur the justice of eonian (age) extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength (Concordant version)(Brackets are mine)


This is the closest accurate translation to these verse that I have found available in English, and what they mean is that the suffering and persecution that the Thessalonian believers were facing would eventually end. The persecutors were the Jews in that region that would not share the same God with the gentiles. Paul was encouraging the Thessalonians, and the Jews did face the fire and vengeance of God A.D. 70. So we can say that in all his letters, the apostle Paul never once warned the gentiles of Gehenna like Christ warned the Jews. As a matter of fact, Paul never once uttered the word Gehenna to any follower of Christ let alone the word hell.


So what fire was Paul talking about in 2 Thessalonians 1? Is it the same fire found in 1Cor 3:10-15?



"10 According to the grace of God which is being granted to me, as a wise foreman I lay a foundation, yet another is building on it. Yet let each one beware how he is building on it.
11 For other foundation can no one lay beside that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone is building on this foundation gold and silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw,
13 each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident, for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work -- what kind it is.
14 If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages.
15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire."(Concordant version)


Or is it the same fire in Matt 3:10?


"10 "Yet already the ax is lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, which is not producing ideal fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire." (Concordant version)



It is my hope that the reader can see the teaching or warning of Gehenna as I do, and what I have found in Christ's teachings is not a warning about a place of eternal horror called hell. Such a place and its characteristics could never serve the purpose or pleasure of our heavenly Father. Gehenna also known as the valley of the sons of Hinnom, a place just outside of Jerusalem and a constant reminder to the Jews of the evil things done there by the Jews. 2 Kings 23 we find this.


"10 He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice his son or daughter in the fire to Molech."


Jeremiah 32:35They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.


During the time when Christ ministered, His disciples understood what their teacher was teaching. In Matt 24:3, they go as far as to ask Him when this age will end (age Improperly translated to "world" in most versions), meaning the age of the old covenant or the end of the Jewish religion as the Jews knew it. John the baptise who set the path ready for Christ knew that great divine change was just around the corner as he says in Matthew 3:2 that the kingdom that we now live in was at hand during his lifetime. At hand meaning any day now almost 2000 years ago, not 2000 years later. John even prophesised the end of Judah in Matthew 3:10.


"The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."


It has been hinted that the interpretation of this verse is that God as a lumberjack will cut down anyone who does not repent and send them to hell. Nothing can be further from the truth. Isaiah 60:21 we find this.


"Then will all your people be righteous and they will possess the land forever. They are the shoot I have planted, the work of my hands, for the display of my splendor." (NIV)


There is one thing here we must consider first before we continue. You will notice the word "forever" in verse 21. The Hebrew word is "I.oulm" which is properly translated in English to "for the age". God did plant His chosen people in the promise land and they grew from shoots to trees until the end of the age of the old covenant. So if trees are symbolic for Jews, what is their root? Jerusalem is the root and as the ax is already at the root means the Roman occupation of Judah ruled in Jerusalem by Pontius Pilate during the days of John's ministry. God uses Rome as an ax, just as in Isa:10:5 We find the Assyrians were God's rod.


" O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation."


Prophecy was fulfilled A.D. 70-73 with the horrific destruction of Jerusalem, the temple and the unofficial death of over 2 million Jews in Judah and in surrounding countries. They would not accept Christ as their messiah and most of them were eventually killed by Syrian Romans and by each other with in their different sects. Getting back to Gehenna, we learn that it is a horrific reminder to the Jews and we know why, but Christ was saying that their bodies would be dumped there which angered the Pharisees and Scribes. You see, what they don' t tell you at church is that in Hebron is the site where honored Jews and religious leaders would be buried. Now we have Christ telling the religious leaders that their burial site will be in a place reserved for dead criminals. Gehenna was a dumping ground for garbage, dead animals and criminals. Maggots thrived in this pit of stench and filth. Christ gives His disciples signs to look for in Matthew 24, that when these signs are seen, they are to flee Jerusalem as fast as possible to escape the wrath of God that will pour fire down (spiritually speaking) on Jerusalem with the help of Rome.


Officially, it has been estimated and documented that over 1 ,100.000 Jews were slaughtered at the hands of the Romans A.D. 70 in the great city, but not one Christian death has been documented in Jerusalem. Christ's warnings of Gehenna was meant to save as many of God's chosen people as possible, through acceptance of their messiah and saviour Jesus Christ. The destruction of Jerusalem was a judgement from God for all the sins the people of this city committed. In horror, the Jews watched in horror as their temple was torn apart by Roman soldiers to get at the melted down gold from the heat of the fire. Bodies laid piled and the stench of death and diseases was throughout the city's streets. Food was scares and almost priceless. As quick as the Jews jumped over the city walls, soldiers slaughtered them and opened them searching for swallowed gems and jewelry. It was a sight of terror for the Jews who managed to escape watching their city being destroyed along with their religion.


When one attempts to interpret the words of Christ, it is important to remember that His words are both spirit and life (John 6:63), and should not be interpreted literally. It is easy to come to the belief of hell as a place of eternal torment when one takes scripture in a literal sense. All this teaching of hell does is motivate people to worship out of fear of going to hell, and this distracts the worshiper from the knowledge of God's loving nature as a Father. Gehenna is simply symbolic for God's wrath on Judah.


Evelyn Uyemura says it best when she said " We do not read the Bible the way it is; we read it the way we are." Peace.


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      augustine72 4 years ago from India

      SwordofManticorE:

      I have some disagreement with you here and so I thought I would express it here for the readers.

      First you claim that Paul never spoke of Hell or Gehenna to the Gentiles. It is true that he never used the word hell or Gehenna even once but that fact can never be used to conclude that he never spoke of hell.

      The fact is that Paul did speak about hell but used other words to describe it.

      Consider the following verses:

      DEATH

      Rom_1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

      Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

      Rom_8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

      2Co_1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

      These are some verses where Paul uses the word "Death" to refer to Hell.

      -------

      PERISH

      Rom_2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

      1Co_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

      ---------

      WRATH

      Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

      Rom_2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

      ---------

      CONDEMNATION

      Rom_5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many

      1Ti_3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

      --------

      Likewise he has used many other words like"Curse", "punish", "trouble and distress" etc.

      Paul world have some reason to not use the word "Hell" as is in his letters. But to say that he did not speak of Hell is absurd.

      I would also like to mention that it is not true that the words of Jesus is not to taken literally. Most of His words has to be taken literally only while there are some that should not. It is evident to a spirit led learner what he must take literally and what not to.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image
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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Friend, thank you for your response. In Acts 20:27, Paul says that he has said to us all what God wants us to know. If there is a hell, and God wanted to save the gentile nations from it. Paul who have been as bold to the gentiles about Gehenna, as Christ was to the Jews, but he didn't. Death? This verse you quoted is all I really need to understand what Paul meant by it. Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

      1 Tim 2: 5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,

      If you interpret the verses you have quoted literally, You get confusion, but if you interpret it spiritually, you find Paul is talking about the coming wrath on Judah and the Jews. Those who follow the law.

      You wrote

      " I would also like to mention that it is not true that the words of Jesus is not to taken literally. Most of His words has to be taken literally only while there are some that should not. It is evident to a spirit led learner what he must take literally and what not to."

      Please give me an example what I should take literally, when He Himself said His words are spirit and life (John 6:63).

      Paul taught the ministry of reconciliation of all things to the believers and encouraged them to do the same. Sadly, the church today does not. (2Cor 5:16-21)

      Paul also tells us something that is fully acceptable, that God is the saviour of mankind especially the believers, and to command and teach this, sadly, the church today does not eccept this nor does it command and teach this. (1Tim 4:9-11) Peace

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      augustine72 4 years ago from India

      Okay would you please tell me then what Paul means by the word "death"?

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      The physical death of the body.

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      augustine72 4 years ago from India

      In that case read this verse:

      2Co_1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

      "delivered us from death and doth deliver"! Jesus did not deliver anyone from physical death. Nor are we trusting in Jesus to deliver us from bodily death "we trust that he will yet deliver us". This shows that Paul is not speaking of bodily death.

      Moreover I had asked you only about death. What about other words - Wrath, condemnation etc.

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Another thing I would like to add Augustine, if the words you state from Paul are truly referring to hell and God wants to save us all from it. He is reckless and an irresponsible Father if that is the case. He does not give all the details in Paul's letter, just confusion. And I will also add, that if my children go to hell, then I would rather be there with them then be with a tyrant who is no different than a useless pagan god. Thank the Lord He is not so.

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      augustine72 4 years ago from India

      *************

      if the words you state from Paul are truly referring to hell and God wants to save us all from it. He is reckless and an irresponsible Father if that is the case."

      ************

      I do not see how He is a reckless and irresponsible father. Please explain.

      **********************

      "He does not give all the details in Paul's letter, just confusion."

      ********************

      Please explain.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image
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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      What is there to explain friend? Isn't it already obvious? If hell is real and God truly wanted to save all His creation. He would give a full detail of what and where hell is and what it is like to convince the world, instead of using symbolic teachings that many have no idea what they mean. Scripture talks many times about fire as a wrath, a cleansing and God himself as a consuming fire. How many different fires does God have? Why would he put demons in hell for punishment only so they themselves can torment lost souls to satisfy their sadistic thirst (not that I believe in this nonsense)? How does eternally punishing or torturing someone who lived a short span of life on earth glorify God? What does it accomplish to create someone only to allow them knowing in advance that they will eternally suffer for just being born a babe? Is God corrective or vindictive?

      God? You have asked me to love, bless and forgive my enemies unconditionally, so why are you incapable of doing the same to yours? After all, are you not holy? Isn't being holy being righteous and good? With righteousness and holiness comes love, compassion, understanding, comfort and mercy, does it not?

      So why would anyone worship a god who says worship me or burn (Dan 3:1-6)? Such a deity is not capable of all these righteous attributes. Such a god does not deserve my love or worship. Such a god should ask for forgiveness and stop the horror. The billions of people who have lived and died not ever hearing of the gospel should at least of been warned of a place called hell, but according to the church, it doesn't matter, and this makes such a god reckless and irresponsible. The closest pagan deities that come to mind with such horrific characteristics are Hades, the Greek pagan god of the underworld and the Germanic pagan goddess of the underworld called hel.

      To suppose that God would bring beings into existence for both His purpose and pleasure who He knew in advance without mercy would be infinite losers by that existence, is to charge him a hypocrite with the utmost malignity. Get the point now? Peace

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      augustine72 4 years ago from India

      You have many misconception of the scripture and that is why you do not understand things. I will attempt to clear some of them.

      ***********

      He would give a full detail of what and where hell is and what it is like to convince the world, instead of using symbolic teachings that many have no idea what they mean.

      ***********

      If you study the Bible both old and new testament and if you become familiar with the terminologies used, you will have no problem in understanding what it says about hell and you will also understand that the scripture talks very clearly about hell.

      **********

      Why would he put demons in hell for punishment only so they themselves can torment lost souls to satisfy their sadistic thirst (not that I believe in this nonsense)?

      ************

      Hell was created for Satan and his angels (demons). They are sent there for punishment. They will not go around tormenting other soles there. They themselves will be experiencing tormenting. I do not understand where you get these funny ideas that you insist belongs to the Bible.

      **********

      What does it accomplish to create someone only to allow them knowing in advance that they will eternally suffer for just being born a babe?

      **********

      I do not understand what you are saying here.

      Your wrong understand of God (or rather the lack of it) has led you this wrong conclusion. God in not incapable. Man sins and God always forgives. But that does not remove sin from you. Only if sin in you is removed can you enter heaven because sin and holiness cannot co-exist.

      *********

      So why would anyone worship a god who says worship me or burn (Dan 3:1-6)?

      **********

      Did God ever say that?

      In conclusion I would say that your understanding of the nature of God is wrong and that has let you to write such a hub.

    • SwordofManticorE profile image
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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      I use to believe in your misconceptions until it was revealed to me what God's plan is and who He really is. Why do you so ardently believe that billions will suffer eternally? Is it because it justifies the time you took to worship God at church only to avoid going to hell, or is it a deeper and darker reason?

      The reason why I said that demons will satisfy their thirst by tormenting lost souls in hell is to expose the many views of hell in the Christian community. Those like you say that the demons will not torment lost souls, but then you get people like Mary K Baxter and Bill Weiss who testify in their books and CDs that they were sent to hell and they witnessed lost souls being tortured by demons. You some say that hell is deep in the earth, some even say that it is in the center core, while others say that hell is in a spiritual dimension where the soul experiences its torment as if they were in their physical flesh, while others say that hell is outer darkness filled with fire, not realizing the stupidity of their words when fire creates light. Others say that it is a separation from God while the KJV says otherwise in Psalms 139: 7-8. Some say the lake of fire is hell while others say that hell will be cast into the lake of fire which is worst than hell. Some like yourself say that hell was originally made for the devil and his demons, but how could God not know that He would also have to cast His creation there eventually if it was only meant for the devil and his demons? The confusion in the church in regards to what and where hell is, is enough for me to know that hell is of pagan origin adopted by the catholic church anno 500-600 A.D. This tradition along with the many other pagan traditions in the catholic church is also believed by many denominations. As for myself, I believe that all will be reconciled to God through Christ, Gehenna is symbolic for the end of the Jewish religion and its daily sacrifice A.D.70 which Christ tried to save as many of God's chosen people as possible from death. And that the Lake of Fire is the spiritual realm of God, as the LoF is and only is God (Heb 12:29).

      My argument is not against God. It is against the church that has hijacked the ecclesia and has twisted the true image of God into a golden calve with its pagan traditions adopted into the catholic church and some followed by you.

      Question friend, what is the Greek word for torment in Rev 20:10?

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      augustine72 4 years ago from India

      I agree with you on many points. There are so many false churches that has cropped up and they are spreading false doctrine about hell. But what is the truth about hell?

      1. First Hell is referred to as Hell fire in many place.

      And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Mar_9:47

      2. The following verse teaches us that a)Hell is a place prepared for Devil and his angels. b)It is everlasting c)People are also sent there

      Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat 25:41

      3. Who goes to Hell?

      "but the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone..." (Revelation 21:8)

      So the Bible tells us clearly that there is a hell and what is there and who goes there. Now we cannot understand fully what hell is. Because it is something that is not in our dimension. So the words like fire etc which is in our world to describe what heaven would be like.

      In any case I don't understand why that place should be described at all. Hell is a separation from God eternally and that is bad enough if you understand the full meaning of that.

      If hell did not exist why did Christ die? Why were the apostles Martyred?

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      First of all, what makes you think your church is right and teaches the real truth and all the others who teach different than your beliefs are false churches? Have I ever claimed to you that "I" (meaning me) am telling you the truth? I tell you what and why I believe what I believe. Anyone who claims they speak the truth from scripture are fools as only God knows the truth and He will eventually give it all to all.

      1Tim 2: 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

      1, hellfire is a false translation. Why do you call it hellfire when Christ called it gehenna of fire? You put words into our saviours mouth so willingly and arrogantly, not realizing the possibility of being wrong?

      2, A more accurate translation to Matthew 25:41 is "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian (of the age), made ready for the Adversary and his messengers. The adversary, what you call the devil was destroyed on the cross when Christ said "it is finished", and the messengers if they have not already will be freed from their prison, actually saved by fire. You forget that God is a consuming fire, and He consumes our (1Cor 3:10-15) straw, stubble and wood (bad works). Christ will reconcile all things in heaven, on and in the earth to the Father. Matt 25:41 is God's wrath coming to Judah.

      3, No one goes to hell, because it only exist in the minds and hearts of those who ardently believe in it. Be careful how you use verses from Revelations. You obviously have taken a verse out of a book written symbolically and have interpreted it literally. I haven't even come to fully understand the spiritual messages in this book, so please don't be as so foolish and arrogant to claim you have. You say that hell is a total separation from God when Psalms 139: 7-8 in the KJV says otherwise

      I already told you why Christ died on the cross. To save us all from our sleep in the grave. What does it matter why the apostles were martyred? Or does the thought of those who killed them eternally roasting right now give you a feeling of joy?

      I asked you what is the Greek word for torment in Rev 20:10 is and you haven't answered it. I can't help notice that this discussion is going nowhere. It was my hope to open the eyes of those who live in the fear of going to hell. I won't allow you to distract me anymore.

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      Disappearinghead 4 years ago from Wales, UK

      Yes and Amen. Thanks for the hub and all your postings in the cooments.

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      World Religion 4 years ago from the Cosmos

      Thanks for those very interesting pieces of information about Gehenna. I'm still trying to reconcile how Gehenna became the Lake of Fire.

      Has this hub been idled? All you have to do to bring a hub to featured status is edit at least a word of it.

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      CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

      SOM:

      There is much that could be said and even more that should be said, but I will only say this: I believe you have no idea who our Heavenly Father is, nor do you know His only begotten Son.

      From what I have read here tonight, it is clear that you want God...your way...right away. In this stead you are no different from all the other heretics. You don't really want the Almighty as He is...you want Him as you are...with your values, morals, ethics, and sense of justice. You have a very self-centered and myopic view of our Creator, if you ask me.

      You went on to ask Augustine72, "Why do you so ardently believe that billions will suffer eternally?

      Well, perhaps it's because of verses like Matthew 7:13 ,14 "Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. How narrow is the gate and difficut the road that leads to life, and few find it."

      SOM...I just don't see how you can justify your position in light of Scripture. The Word of God warns against adding to it or taking from it, but you seem to do as you please.

      Please reconsider.

      Be well - C.J. Sledgehammer

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      CJ, God is His way, not my way and to accuse me of wanting God my way is just plain silly, because I could just as easily accuse you of the same. Scripture is not just print, everything about it has a mystery to it. It depends on attitude of them who read it if they find the mystery or not. There are two types of Christians, childlike and childish. I choose to be childlike. A child who is taught about God will never conceive the thought that perfect love could do such a horrible thing to His children as to throwing them in a place called hell. A childish adult cannot conceive the thought that perfect love will forgive all trespasses and embrace each and every one of His children regardless of religion, faith or belief. Christ gave us an example as to how God will judge all as He did the adulterous. He who was without sin by Jewish custom and law had the right to cast the first stone. She committed a great sin and still perfect love did not condemn her. When we are all judged by Him. We will no longer sin. A child can understand this. When boasting, proud childish adults try to see God through a child's eyes, they may see perfect love as I do.

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      CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

      SOM:

      You read the Bible and interpret it according to your own desires - that much is obvious. You then deliver your own Gospel message...not as Christ and His Disciples portrayed it, but as you want it.

      You apparently have been led to believe that Scripture is a mystery and it only reflects our inner feelings, not the truth of God's Word.

      I come to this conclusion after reading your own words and from the cherished quote from Evelyn Uyemura, that has left a tainted impression upon your soul, "We do not read the Bible the way it is; we read it the way we are."

      SOM: You should follow the Son of God and His words of Truth, not the fallacious comments and twisted philosophies of a wayward woman.

      In God I trust - C.J. Sledgehammer

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      CJ, YOU read and interpret scripture according to your own desires.

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      CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

      SOM: The truth is that I have no desire other than to please God and follow His ways.

      You have already stated how you feel about God and the reasons for your belief. None of your feelings are backed up Biblically, therefore you make it into a philosophical argument and thus bring in moral relativist like Evelyn Uyemura.

      One of the dangers a false teacher faces, is when they lead sheep astray - it would be better for them to have a millstone wrapped around their necks and thrown into the sea.

      Your present philosophical approach to damnation leads people to believe they can continue to live in sin, in disbelief, and without remorse...and all will be fine in the end. This belief, however, is satanic to the core.

      In His service - C.J. Sledgehammer

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      CJ, again you make no sense at all. What has your belief in hell done for Christians?

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      CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

      SOM:

      The Biblical teachings about "Hell" and the "Lake of Fire" lead one to believe they need to be saved from something horrible. It also leads one to see how great and magnanimous the sacrifice of Christ on the cross at Calvary truly was.

      Now, if we are all saved anyway (as you assert)...then the innocent, bitter, suffering and death of Christ upon the cross was done in vain.

      To tell people the world around that they will be saved regardless of their beliefs or activities is to tell them to continue in their beliefs and sinful activities, because there is no need for them to turn, to repent, to seek forgiveness, or even to consider following Christ in the first place.

      I hope your pride will diminish enough to allow you to see your error and come into the truth.

      In Him - C.J. Sledgehammer

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      I have already told you why Christ died on the cross over and over again, and you continue to ignore what I wrote. Christ's death is total victory, not partial. You concern yourself with the sins of others when you should concentrate on your own. So here is the big question. If someone takes the warnings of hell serious and worships God to avoid going there, is he saved?

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      CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

      SOM: You say a lot of things that take one from pillar to post. You say Christ died for us on the cross, but then talk as if there was no need.

      You say that God is a tyrant if He does not give everyone eternal life. That's you talking, buddy, not God. That's Scripture according to SOM.

      Paul said that if someone comes around preaching a different Gospel we are to throw them out. Your gospel message is that everyone is saved regardless of their beliefs and regardless of their actions. Your gospel message makes sense to you (because it's based on you) but it is not something Jesus taught. You have corrupted Christ's message of salvation, by subjecting it to your own sense of justice and fair play.

      You have already told us what you think of the God of the Bible, so you, like many heretics before you, preach a different gospel and speak of a different Heavenly Father and Savior - one who tickles your ears and carries your pesonal perspectives. You remind me of a Mormon.

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Paul taught the gospel of reconciliation of all with God and you ignore it. If hell is real than I want nothing to do with such a hypocrite. And you remind me of a catholic.

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      CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

      SOM:

      I assure you that I am no catholic. Truth be known, I have not attended church in nearly 5 years.

      All things aside...I still see no Scriptural evidence for the non-existence of Hell, Lake of Fire, eternal damnation, or eternal separation from God. You say that Paul taught about reconciliation, but that just opens the door for mankind to have a loving relationship with their Creator - but it doesn't push them through it.

      This may come as a shock to you, but not everyone wants to be saved and not everyone wants to have a loving relationship with their Creator - just look at those wretched souls at the Tower of Babel. They believed He existed, in fact, so much so that they wanted Him dead.

      Sometimes people get exactly what they want...and sometimes that is eternal separation from God. I even had a guy tell me once that if he found himself in Heaven - he would try to escape.

      I know it sounds somewhat counter-intuitive, but for some people the most gracious thing that God can do for them is to send them away from His presence for all eternity. Some people cannot be helped...some people refuse to be helped.

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      I will tell you why the unbelievers are so ardently as you are. They cherish the flesh and tire of hearing dogma about a god who loves them, but if they don't live holy, they will be eternally tortured in some place called hell. They see two sides to God. One that says He loves all His creation, but the other side that says even though He loves you, He will allow you to be eternally tortured for not loving Him back. They get religion stuffed down their throats while there are horrors being committed every day. I understand them and don't blame them.

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      CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

      SOM:

      To answer one of your previous questions, yes, I believe that if a person were drawn to Christ Yeshua and accepted His gracious gift of Salvation and forgiveness in order to escape the flames of damnation...they would be saved regardless of their motivation.

      It has been said that there are two motivating forces in the universe...pain and pleasure. King David was inspired by the promises of "reward" to slay the giant Goliath. Others, however, may be motivated to seek the LORD in order to escape the flames of damnation. Six of one...half a dozen of the other.

      In the end, it probably does not matter what a person's motivation may have been...the important thing is that one gives themselves over to the LORD.

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      1 John 4:18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

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      CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

      "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom." - Proverbs 9:10

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Yes fear Him, but to worship Him because of fearing punishment is not made perfect in love.

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      CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

      SOM:

      Everyone must begin somewhere. Some people are drawn to Christ because they trust Him to save them from eternal damnation. In time...they will come to love Him as their Savior.

      I love the Almighty and His only begotten Son because of Who They are and What They are. In this regard, my motivation is inspired by love and the promise of what I percieve to be "pleasure", whereas others may be motivated by fear of damnation, thus they surrender to Christ and come to know and love Him through the avoidance of pain.

      I guess it really does not matter which motivating factor was used in the beginning as long as salvation through Christ is sought in the end.

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Nonsense. Because when I believed in hell. I did not love Him. Now that I know hell is a myth, my love for Him is enormous and the same goes for almost all who believe in universal reconciliation of all that Paul taught us. The teachings of hell terrorize and is ungodly, and anyone who says they have no fear of going to hell, yet believe it exists is a self-righteous pharisee. I already know that the thought of universal reconciliation angers you so I see no need to discuss this any further. Peace and good health to you.

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      CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

      SOM:

      Well...I hope you can see that your answers reflect more of what you hope for and what you want to see happen more than what the Word of God actually says.

      Throughout all our communications, you still have not proven to me why the fallacies of Hell are correct and that all will be saved. You have posted a couple vague Biblical references, but they did not say what you perceived them to say as I properly debunked them both.

      In a sense...they say what you want them to say, but not what they were intended to mean. I think you posted Ms. Uyemura's quote because it applies, not to mankind in general, but to you specifically, "We do not read the Bible the way it is; we read it the way we are." - Evil Lyn Uyemura

      If you do not wish to discuss this further...that is fine, but if I catch you promoting universal salvation without repentance or faith - I shall take you to task. Fair enough?

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      You will never catch me promoting Universal salvation with or without repentance and faith. I will always share the good news with hope and by God's grace.

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      CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

      SOM:

      I just don't see the "good news" in your message, unless it's "good news" for Satan worshipers, witches, Mormons, tyrants and a host of other pagans, heretics and heathens.

      Honestly, your message is one of universal salvation, meaning you are a Universalist. The true "good news" of your message is that ALL are saved regardless of what they believe, say, or do, which is another way of saying all paths lead to God.

      If you believed anything within the Bible at all, you would have to believe Christ when He said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes unto the Father except through Me." - John 14:6

      Yet, this is not your message. Your message is that eternal life and the path to the Father can be obtained from following the Pope, Joseph Smith, Jr., Buddha, Kali, Odin and a whole host of other pretenders.

      Worse yet, your message of universal salvation actually encourages people to forge ahead with their sinful lifestyles and hedonistic acts, because, they too, will be saved in the end, so there is NO need for a Savior and no need to hear the Gospel Message of Christ.

      I truly hope and pray that you can see the damage you are doing and that you have fallen victim to the doctrine of devils and spirit of error.

      Praying for your recovery - C.J. Sledgehammer

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Of course you don't see the good news because the thought of billions burning is the good news for you and nothing else matters.

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      CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

      SOM:

      I think you are forgetting that besides being a God of Love, the Almighty is also a Holy God and Just God. The fact that the Almighty is a Just and Holy God means that He cannot allow filth to enter His domain or presence, thus it is necessary for a thorough cleansing, which can only be accomplished through the perfect sacrifice of His only begotten Son, Christ Yeshua.

      Those who choose not to be cleansed through the blood of Christ and choose therefore not to be "born again" cannot come unto the Father or enter into eternal life. Why is that so hard to understand?

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      That is why Christ died on the cross. He washed the sins of the world away.

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      CJ Sledgehammer 4 years ago

      Shame on you, SOM!!!

      Only closed minds close discussions. Why have you run from our friendly debate regarding your question on the purpose for Hell? My take on it is that you cannot withstand the truth. It is also my contention that only cowards take to flight.

      In His service - C.J. Sledgehammer

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      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Because you bring nothing new to the table and I get tired of the same old usless garbage from you and J. But on a good note, I have made a hub that is awaiting approval, and both you and J will fit right in when it is approved. It is about you both. Btw way, none of your answers answered the question I asked. It was the same old spamming I get from you two. So when I closed it, I felt no shame.

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      Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

      It is an interesting discussion about the DEATH. The death is curse of the Law, like poverty or sickness. But this can pass. The death is last enemy but it is not end. The worst enemy to man is permanent separation of spirit man from God.

      Last enemy means it is not the end, it means only "last" enemy and there will be no more enemies after who believe and live in grace.

      Physical death is not worst thing in the universe. It is only transition. Jesus did not address that stage.

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      Pamitchrus 4 years ago

      SwordofManticorE .... Awesome hub !!! Always good to read your writings !!! Love that quote at the end of the hub, that sums up the heart of man very well ... Good thing our Father is in control and not the church who professes his name !!

      Have a good one and hang in there :0)..

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