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The Return of the Messiah, Son of Mary (peace be on him): The Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam, Part 2

Updated on December 1, 2015

The Return of the Messiah, Son of Mary (peace be on him)

Introduction

I begin in the name of the Lord, Most gracious, Most merciful. And I begin with bidding you all peace, blessing and salvation.

This is the second in a series of Hubs I undertook to convey an as-objective-as-possible account of why I committed myself to the Ahmadiyya movement in Islam in the hope to dispel misconceptions, particularly among Muslims. In the previous hub, I wrote of the Islamic concept of finality-of-prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). This hub is about the concept of the return of Jesus (Son of Mary) – possibly the greatest of end-times belief system now held by more than half of world’s population: Muslims and Christians. Both Muslims and Christians expect Jesus (peace be on him) to, naturally, take their side and declare the other as the Anti-Christ (or Dajjal as known in Islamic eschatology).

Although this hub is primarily based on the Islamic dispensation of the coming of the Messiah, I would strongly urge Christians to read along. Christians who are in study, who know of the prophecies in the Books of Genesis and Deuteronomy regarding God raising a great nation through the progeny of Ishmael (peace be on him), and who know that Christian Eschatology points to the end of the 19th century (which was wildly abuzz with rapture celebrations, though ending in disappointment) as the moment for the return of Christ, would have a keen interest. Christian truth-seekers would also find it very intriguing that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) used the term "Jesus Son of Mary" for the latters-day messiah to come.

The Language of Scripture

The Torah had prophecized the return of Elijah as Harbinger to the Messiah
The Torah had prophecized the return of Elijah as Harbinger to the Messiah

It bemuses me that people spend a lifetime reading scripture and reflect such unfamiliarity with it. Parables is the language of scripture, whether the Gospels, Quran, the Vedas or other holy books. Parables set forth as examples have the benefit of explaining something briefly and quickly. The other benefit of parables and similes is that everyone can understand it—rich or poor, intelligent or not. The story drives the point home clearly, no matter how complex or lengthy the actual course of events behind it. Jesus (pbuh) particularly was known to speak and preach in parables. The Holy Quran itself proclaims this manner of speech, such as the promise of Paradise as Gardens of Bliss under which rivers flow. However, verse 13:35 of the Holy Quran (given below) makes it clear that this is an example in order to explain the matter in terms we can understand easily. The actual form of Paradise may differ, but this essence will not.

[13:35] The similitude of the Heaven promised to the God-fearing is, that through it flow streams, its fruit is everlasting, and its shade. That is the reward of those who are righteous; and the reward of the disbelievers is Fire.

[18:54] And, surely, We have explained in various ways in this Qur’an, for mankind, all similitude (or examples), but of all things man is most contentious.

The Quran states that prophets, like other human beings, must live and die according to the rules of the physical universe. These rules are constant, consistent, and universal. I would like to present as evidence the following two verses of The Holy Quran:

[5:75] The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.

[3:144] And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he dies or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.

These verses state that Muhammad (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) lived and died like other messengers of God before them. And despite Muhammad’s(pbuh) great status with God Almighty, if he is killed in battle, will people abandon this movement and religion which is from the All-Powerful God? The verse appears to hold the purpose to straighten perception and thinking about messengers of God.

Now, despite this rule, God Almighty makes it abundantly clear in The Quran that He has power over all things, His Decree never fails, and all matters return to Him for decision. He informs us of the existence of the Ghaib (the unseen) and The Angels-- dimensions or agencies where by His Decree would be executed. In verse 22:40 God Almighty explains that He sometimes moves nations against other nations so that His mosques, churches and synagogues can be protected. Although events such as the parting of water for the Israelites to escape Pharaoh’s pursuit are mentioned in The Quran, what we are informed of here is that God implements His will per a prescribed system. Whereas prophets are said to have possessed miracles, no prophet has ever returned from the Heavens. In fact, Jesus Christ (pbuh) was addressed in this regard with the belief the Jews held that prophet Elijah (pbuh) will descend from the Heavens on a chariot of fire as a harbinger to announce the advent of the Promised Messiah. Jesus (pbuh) replied that, as goes with second advents, John the Baptist (pbuh), known as Yahya (pbuh) in Islam, has returned in the power and glory of Elijah (Matthew 11:13-15) . . .For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

The Allegory of Mary and the Son of Mary in The Quran

The Second Coming

Second Coming Part 2

The question now is: do Mary (may God be pleased with her) and Jesus (pbuh) appear as examples in the Quran. They do. Below are verses10 through12 from Chapter 66 of the Holy Quran:

[66:10-12] Allah sets forth for those who disbelieve the example of the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under two righteous servants of Ours, but they acted unfaithfully. So they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said ‘Enter the Fire, ye twain, along with those who enter.’ And Allah sets forth for those who believe the example of the wife of Pharaoh when she said, ‘My Lord! build for me a house with Thee in the Garden; and deliver me from Pharaoh and his work, and deliver me from the wrongdoing people. And the example of Mary, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity — so We breathed into him of Our Spirit — and she fulfilled the words of her Lord and His Books and was one of the obedient.

In the last verse 66:12, note that Mary (may God be pleased with her) is given as an example of a righteous believer, male or female. Down that same verse where it is mentioned of ‘breathing Our Spirit into’, the gender remarkably switches to male on Mary. If your Quran does not point this out, then refer to some Arabic source or means to confirm. The proof is in the word, Feehe – fanafakhna feehe. We know that there was a physiological discourse where Mary gave birth to Jesus (pbuh) the Messiah. In Chapter 19 of the Quran, she had withdrawn from society to hold fast to her Lord. There she conceived The Messiah by way of a virgin birth after the Spirit was breathed into her—as given in verse 21:91 where the gender for breathing into is feminine, feeha, unlike 66:12. Since the Quran gives Mary as an example of a righteous believer who gave birth to a Messiah, it can be inferred that the Heavens have so accorded-- before prophets of God attain the level of prophet-hood and announces to the world as such and begin the dispensations of their mission and message, they move through a stage of withdrawal and submission to God Almighty impregnated with The Spirit, just as the physiological discourse undertaken by Mary (may God be pleased with her).

There is a Sahih Bukhari Hadith [Book#54, Hadith#506] (Hadiths are sayings and traditions of the prophet Muhammad - peace be upon him) interwoven with these verses of the Holy Quran that supports this interpretation. It is a saying of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) narrated by Abu-Hurrairah in explanation of verse of 3:36 which mentions the birth of Mary and her mother’s prayer of submitting her to God for refuge from Satan. In the Hadith, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) says that everyone is scarred by the touch of Satan when they are born, with the exception of Mary (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh), Son of Mary. If this is to be taken literally, then it would mean that even prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was not exempt from Satan’s touch-- since he enjoys the position of ‘Seal of the Prophets’, we know this is not possible. Therefore, the references here have to be allegorical. What is likely meant by Son of Mary are all those prophets and messengers of God Almighty who attain this zenith—a spiritual parallel of the virgin birth conceived by Jesus (pbuh). They withdrew from the world to some remote dwelling for an uninterrupted communion with their Lord and in suspense of their outward prophetic dispensation. Imam Al-Zamakhshari, in his renowned commentary of The Holy Quran called “Al-Kashshaaf” (the Revealer) agrees with this interpretation of the hadith.

Now, let’s look for any historical record that supports this interpretation. Following is the English translation of an excerpt (on page 207) from an Urdu book called ‘Irfaan’ written by an Islamic scholar named Faqir Nur Muhammad Sarwari Qadri who was a follower of the renowned 17th century Sufi Saint Sultan Bahu. The translation of this excerpt is as follows:

“Henceforth, Allah Almighty illuminated the light of The Holy Quran in the breast of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) the discourse of which was such that he felt the dispensed Holy revelation bear seed within himself. Meaning, just like Mary he became pregnant with the burden of a developing spirit inside him. [Here the author inserts a verse from The Holy Quran (19:22) that speaks of when Mary became pregnant with prophet Jesus(pbuh) and withdrew from society] The Holy Prophet(pbuh) then turned to a remote area away from the bustle of populace towards the cave of Ghar-e-Hira. There he awaited in solitude for the harvest of his spiritual seeding. He would go there often awaiting the coming out of the spiritual Jesus(pbuh) in him.”

Sahih Bukhari Hadith: Prophet Muhammad (saw) Shown the Previous Messiah and the One to Come

When seen with Moses (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) is described as having red complexion and curly hair. When a Son of Mary is seen protecting ka'ba from dajjal (anti-christ), he is described as having brown complexion and straight hair.

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "I saw Moses, Jesus and Abraham (on the night of my Ascension to the heavens). Jesus was of red complexion, curly hair and a broad chest. Moses was of brown complexion, straight hair and tall stature as if he was from the people of Az-Zutt."

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ كَثِيرٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا إِسْرَائِيلُ، أَخْبَرَنَا عُثْمَانُ بْنُ الْمُغِيرَةِ، عَنْ مُجَاهِدٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ قَالَ قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ رَأَيْتُ عِيسَى وَمُوسَى وَإِبْرَاهِيمَ، فَأَمَّا عِيسَى فَأَحْمَرُ جَعْدٌ عَرِيضُ الصَّدْرِ، وَأَمَّا مُوسَى فَآدَمُ جَسِيمٌ سَبْطٌ كَأَنَّهُ مِنْ رِجَالِ الزُّطِّ ‏"‏‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3438, Book 60, Hadith 109


Narrated `Abdullah:

The Prophet (ﷺ) mentioned the Masih Ad-Dajjal in front of the people saying, Allah is not one-eyed while Masih Ad-Dajjal is blind in the right eye and his eye looks like a bulging out grape. While sleeping near the Ka`ba last night, I saw in my dream a man of brown color the best one can see amongst brown color and his hair was long that it fell between his shoulders. His hair was lank and water was dribbling from his head and he was placing his hands on the shoulders of two men while circumambulating the Ka`ba. I asked, 'Who is this?' They replied, 'This is Jesus, son of Mary.' Behind him I saw a man who had very curly hair and was blind in the right eye, resembling Ibn Qatan (i.e. an infidel) in appearance. He was placing his hands on the shoulders of a person while performing Tawaf around the Ka`ba. I asked, 'Who is this? 'They replied, 'The Masih, Ad-Dajjal.' "

حَدَّثَنَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ الْمُنْذِرِ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو ضَمْرَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى، عَنْ نَافِعٍ، قَالَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ ذَكَرَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَوْمًا بَيْنَ ظَهْرَىِ النَّاسِ الْمَسِيحَ الدَّجَّالَ، فَقَالَ ‏"‏ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَيْسَ بِأَعْوَرَ، أَلاَ إِنَّ الْمَسِيحَ الدَّجَّالَ أَعْوَرُ الْعَيْنِ الْيُمْنَى، كَأَنَّ عَيْنَهُ عِنَبَةٌ طَافِيَةٌ ‏"‏‏.‏ ‏"‏ وَأَرَانِي اللَّيْلَةَ عِنْدَ الْكَعْبَةِ فِي الْمَنَامِ، فَإِذَا رَجُلٌ آدَمُ كَأَحْسَنِ مَا يُرَى مِنْ أُدْمِ الرِّجَالِ، تَضْرِبُ لِمَّتُهُ بَيْنَ مَنْكِبَيْهِ، رَجِلُ الشَّعَرِ، يَقْطُرُ رَأْسُهُ مَاءً، وَاضِعًا يَدَيْهِ عَلَى مَنْكِبَىْ رَجُلَيْنِ وَهْوَ يَطُوفُ بِالْبَيْتِ‏.‏ فَقُلْتُ مَنْ هَذَا فَقَالُوا هَذَا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ‏.‏ ثُمَّ رَأَيْتُ رَجُلاً وَرَاءَهُ جَعْدًا قَطَطًا أَعْوَرَ عَيْنِ الْيُمْنَى كَأَشْبَهِ مَنْ رَأَيْتُ بِابْنِ قَطَنٍ، وَاضِعًا يَدَيْهِ عَلَى مَنْكِبَىْ رَجُلٍ، يَطُوفُ بِالْبَيْتِ، فَقُلْتُ مَنْ هَذَا قَالُوا الْمَسِيحُ الدَّجَّالُ ‏"‏‏.‏ تَابَعَهُ عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ عَنْ نَافِعٍ‏.‏

Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 3439, 3440, Book 60, Hadith 11


Narrated Salim from his father:

No, By Allah, the Prophet (ﷺ) did not tell that Jesus was of red complexion but said, "While I was asleep circumambulating the Ka`ba (in my dream), suddenly I saw a man of brown complexion and lank hair walking between two men, and water was dropping from his head. I asked, 'Who is this?' The people said, 'He is the son of Mary.' Then I looked behind and I saw a red-complexioned, fat, curly-haired man, blind in the right eye which looked like a bulging out grape. I asked, 'Who is this?' They replied, 'He is Ad-Dajjal.' The one who resembled to him among the people, was Ibn Qatar." (Az-Zuhri said, "He (i.e. Ibn Qatan) was a man from the tribe Khuza`a who died in the pre-lslamic period.")

حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ الْمَكِّيُّ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنَ سَعْدٍ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي الزُّهْرِيُّ، عَنْ سَالِمٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ،، قَالَ لاَ وَاللَّهِ مَا قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم لِعِيسَى أَحْمَرُ، وَلَكِنْ قَالَ ‏ "‏ بَيْنَمَا أَنَا نَائِمٌ أَطُوفُ بِالْكَعْبَةِ، فَإِذَا رَجُلٌ آدَمُ سَبْطُ الشَّعَرِ، يُهَادَى بَيْنَ رَجُلَيْنِ، يَنْطِفُ رَأْسُهُ مَاءً أَوْ يُهَرَاقُ رَأْسُهُ مَاءً فَقُلْتُ مَنْ هَذَا قَالُوا ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ، فَذَهَبْتُ أَلْتَفِتُ، فَإِذَا رَجُلٌ أَحْمَرُ جَسِيمٌ، جَعْدُ الرَّأْسِ، أَعْوَرُ عَيْنِهِ الْيُمْنَى، كَأَنَّ عَيْنَهُ عِنَبَةٌ طَافِيَةٌ‏.‏ قُلْتُ مَنْ هَذَا قَالُوا هَذَا الدَّجَّالُ‏.‏ وَأَقْرَبُ النَّاسِ بِهِ شَبَهًا ابْنُ قَطَنٍ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَ الزُّهْرِيُّ رَجُلٌ مِنْ خُزَاعَةَ هَلَكَ فِي الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ‏.‏

Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 3441, Book 60, Hadith 111

The Messianic Parallel

Jesus stands accused by the 70-member body of Jewish scholars known as The Sanhedrin.
Jesus stands accused by the 70-member body of Jewish scholars known as The Sanhedrin.

Now, there are other references to support this theory. It may not be fair to say that the terminology of the return of Son of Mary is purely metaphorical speaking to the harvest of a prophetic seeding. The next question, one may ask, is that did Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) speak of anything regarding this prophecy that relates to Jesus The Messiah (pbuh). Below is a renowned Hadith found in the respected works of Al-Tirmidi (Kitabul Imaan, Chp 19, page 26) which is part of the Saha Sitha or six most authentic compilations of Hadiths. This saying of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is as follows:

There will come a time upon my followers when they will come to resemble the Jews like the shoe on one foot resembles the shoe on the other. If anyone from the Jews committed adultery against his mother then someone from my followers will do the same. The Jews divided themselves into 72 sects. My followers will divide into 73 sects. All of them will be in the Fire except one-- they are the ones who will be following me and my companions.

So, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is speaking of the coming of the Son of Mary, and he is also speaking of his followers or Ummah becoming like the Jews. Below is a comparison of the parallels of the two Messiahs (peace be upon them), Jesus of Nazareth and Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian . . .

1. Prophet Jesus appeared as a Messiah in the Mosaic dispensation and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad appeared as a Messiah in the Mohammedan dispensation after approximately 1,300 years in each instance.

2. Heavenly signs were ordained for the advent of both Messiahs. In the case of Jesus Christ (pbuh) the three wise men followed astrological signs (referred to as The Star). In case of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(pbuh) the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) stated that Solar and Lunar eclipses will occur at certain times-- this prophecy of the darkening of the Sun and Moon are also mentioned in The Holy Quran and The Holy Bible.

3. Both men were highly renowned religious scholars and activists as a Jewish Rabi and a Muslim Imam respectively.

4. Both Messiahs appeared when Judaism and Islam were broken into 72 or many sects.

5. Both Messiahs were met with a storm of opposition by the religious clergy of Jews and Muslims and declared heretics. Both clergies indulged in slander and character-assassination of the Messiahs. The 12th century Sufi saint Mohyeddin Ibne Arabi wrote in his renowned work of "Futuhaat Al-Makiyya" that when Imam Mahdi comes, the so-called Muslim scholars of that time will be his enemies.

6. Clergies of both, Jews and Muslims, had misinterpreted prophecies of the coming of Messiah to mean that the Messiahs will consolidate a worldly kingdom for them by way of war and conquest. Both clergies further misinterpreted and leveled the charge that their Messiahs did not fulfill prophecies by ushering in an era of end to religious conflict and establish world peace.

7. An terrible ideology of violence was adopted by factions in both religions when the Messiah appeared to both. This ideology among certain Jewish sects sought a return to Davidian glory by cleansing the holy land of foreign Roman rule, gentiles, and Hellenistic Jews to establish the rule of the Kingdom of God. Some Muslims sects today seek an ultimate victory through a violent concept of Jihad to return to glory-days of the Rashideen Caliphate. Both, the Jewish and Muslim Messiahs commanded the Jews and Muslims to lay down the sword and abandon this flawed and corrupt ideology of violence. The clergies rejected this.

8. In the case of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) the Jewish clergy gathered in the body known as The Sanhedrin to pass an edict or fatwa of heresy against Jesus and then approached a State body (The Roman State of Judea) to press for an official verdict against Jesus. In the case of Hazrat Ahmad (pbuh) the Muslim clergy gathered in the body known as "Ribbat Al-Aalim Islami" (World Muslim League) in Saudi Arabia to pass a fatwa of heresy and then approached the State of Pakistan to amend its constitution to declare Ahmadis as non-Muslims.

9. Both messiahs and their followers came to be known as highly forbearing in face of violent persecution and not reacting with violence. Both Messiahs emphasized deeply on praying for protection from God Almighty. Followers of Jesus came to be known to ‘turn the other cheek’ when attacked. After 86 Ahmadiyya Muslims were massacred in Lahore (Pakistan) in 2010 during Friday prayers, per the order of Ahmadiyya Caliph (leader), no revenge was taken and the one captured culprit was handed over to police unharmed.

10. The Jewish clergy leveled the charge of Nabi Isa(as) declaring himself as the ‘Son of God’ and a 'God' and superseded Prophet Moses’s(peace be on him) status. The Muslim clergy leveled the charge on Ghulam Ahmad that he claimed to be a new and independent prophet superseding the authority of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Both Messiahs defended against the false accusations.

11. Both clergies attempted to kill their respective messiahs. Both were unsuccessful in the endeavor according to the Islamic tradition (in Christianity Jesus dies on the cross).

12. Both Messiahs were accused of an accursed death by the clergies in an attempt to strip their claims of being Messiahs– how could God Almighty allow His Messiahs to die accursed deaths? The Jews believe that Jesus died on the cross while Muslims believe that Ghulam Ahmad died of cholera, both considered as accursed deaths.

13. The followers of both the Messiahs were subjected to intense persecution and cruelty under various regimes. Several of their followers were killed for just believing in the Messiahs. Such martyrdom, in the early Christians and in Ahmadi-Muslims is considered a great honor. In both cases, the persecutors were unable to impede the growth of the movements.

14. In the case of the followers of the first Messiah Jesus (pbuh) they endured persecution for 300 years before Constantine I ended their persecution and they converted their situation to one of prominence. The Messiah in the Mohammedan dispensation, Hazrat Ahmad (pbuh) also gave a prophecy of a similar three century period for his movement to reach prominence.

During the time of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (peace be on him) there was an intense opposition campaign by the Muslim clergy of India who unanimously opposed him. Two hundred Islamic scholars of India signed a document declaring him and his followers as heritics. Tanzeem Khatame Nabuwat or The Organization for Defence of Finality-of-Prophethood, established as opposition to the Ahmadiyya Muslims, represents most other sects of Islam. In 1974, King Faisal of Saudi Arabia and his Imams organized the World Muslim Leage meeting attended by 140 Muslim scholars for the purpose of a unanimous opposition and declaration against the Ahmadiyya community. In that same year, Pakistan's national assembly through an act of legislative law declared Ahmadis as non-Muslims. The Nawai Waqt Pakistani newspaper reported that apart from the Ahmadiyya community, Imams of all known 72 sects (an exact number-match to the prophecy above by Prophet Muhammad pbuh) of Islam were present in the assembly and agreed with the decision!!!

Messianic Parallel of Messiah vs Terrorism

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the Promised Messiah and Mahdi prophecized by Prophets Muhammad (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh), and stood opposed unanimously by the Muslim Imams as Jesus had by the Jewish Rabbis
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the Promised Messiah and Mahdi prophecized by Prophets Muhammad (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh), and stood opposed unanimously by the Muslim Imams as Jesus had by the Jewish Rabbis

The Raising up to Heaven, so what does it mean?

You may ask then, how does such a widespread belief of Jesus Christ’s (pbuh) physical raising up to heaven in the Islamic and Christian traditions come to be? If this really is a grossly misconceived concept.

In the Christian tradition, Jesus Christ’s (pbuh) raising up to heaven after his supposed death and resurrection does not appear in Gospel of Luke till around 100 years after the crucifixion. The very first of the Canonical Gospels, the Gospel of Mark, does not mention the resurrection. This makes the matter suspect to interpolations, distortion, and even willful misconduct that oft occur as authority in religion crafts notions that will make their case stronger i.e. The Council of Nicea. It also causes grave inconsistencies with passages in The Bible where Jesus (pbuh) makes appearances after the crucifixion—these have been poorly explained away as ghostly appearances specially as St. Thomas explores Jesus’s wounds and in one verse Jesus is hungry and asks for food.

In the Islamic tradition, the notion of a physical ascension to heaven stems from the verses 4:157-158 of the Holy Quran which state that the Jews failed in their attempt to have Jesus crucified and that Allah had raised Jesus. The Arabic term for the “raising” used in the verse is R’faa. This terminology has been used several times in the Quran. All the verses below where the word raise or exalt is underlined you can cross-check that the Arabic term in the Quran used is a form of R’faa. An examination of these verses reveals that R’faa means to exalt or to raise in rank, not to bodily ascend to heaven.

[12:100] And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they all fell down prostrate before God for him. And he said, ‘O my father, this is the fulfillment of my dream of old. My Lord has made it true . . .

[12:76] Then he began with their sacks before the sack of his brother; then he took it out from his brother’s sack. Thus did We plan for Joseph. He could not have taken his brother under the King’s law unless Allah had willed. We raise in degrees whomsoever We please; and over every possessor of knowledge is One, Most-Knowing.

[58:11] O ye who believe! when it is said to you, ‘Make room!’ in your assemblies, then do make room; Allah will make ample room for you. And when it is said, ‘Rise up!’ then rise up; Allah will raise those who believe from among you, and those to whom knowledge is given, to degrees of rank. And Allah is Well-Aware of what you do.

[6:83] And that is Our argument which We gave to Abraham against his people. We exalt in degrees of rank whom so We please. Thy Lord is indeed Wise, All-Knowing.

[35:10] Whoso desires honor, then all honor belongs to Allah. Unto Him ascend good words, and righteous work does He exalt. And those who plot evils — for them is a severe punishment; and the plotting of such will perish.

[43:32] Is it they who would distribute the mercy of thy Lord? It is We Who distribute among them their livelihood in the present life, and We exalt some of them above others in degrees of rank, so that some of them may make others subservient to themselves. And the mercy of thy Lord is better than that which they amass.

[56:3] Some it will bring low, others it will exalt.

[19:56-57] And relate Idris in the Book, he was truthful, a prophet. And we raised him to a high station.

[3:56] When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die and will raise thee to Myself . . .

In verse 3:56 above note that Allah says that He will cause Jesus (pbuh) to die and then will raise him. Everyone knows that Jesus Christ (pbuh) suffered much persecution and had few followers during his lifetime, but Allah fulfilled his promise that He will establish Jesus’s legend by exalting his status which was later also affirmed by The Holy Quran and Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Therefore, the verse is stating that Jesus Christ (pbuh) has, in fact, died. Bearing the belief that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was bodily raised up to heaven and is still alive some 2,000 years later makes it impossible to reconcile with the verses 5:75 and 3:144 of The Holy Quran I have given above in the Hub which are strongly asserting the point that both Muhammad and Jesus (peace be upon them) were only Messengers of Allah and like all messengers before them, they too will pass away in the same manner.

Now it needs to be disclosed here that The Holy Quran does use the word R'faa in the sense of a physiological raising such as in Surah Rahman verse 7 where Allah is speaking of His raising up of the Heavens or firmament. However, to my knowledge, it has not been used in such a sense with reference to prophets or believers as is outlined by the above verses.

Below are some Hadith which also support the argument that the Jesus Christ (pbuh) who came to the Israelites 2,000 years ago has, in fact, died.

  1. "If Jesus and Moses had been alive, they would have had no choice but to follow me." (Kathir vol II, p 245 and al yawaqit wal Jawahir, part 2, page 24).
  2. "Jesus son of Mary lived for 120 years, and I see myself as only entering upon the beginning of the sixties." (Kanz al Ummal, part 6, p.120).
  3. In Bukhari, it is reported that in the spiritual event known as The Miraj, the Holy Prophet(pbuh) saw Prophet Yahya (John The Baptist) and Jesus (peace be on them both) in the second heaven. If Prophet Yahya is dead, then Jesus Christ is dead, for the dead do not keep company with the living.
  4. The family of the Holy Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) were also agreed on the death of Jesus(pbuh). Imam Hasan (may Allah be pleased with him), recounting the events relating to the death of Ali (may Allah be pleased with him), stated, "he (Ali) died during the 27th night of the month of Ramadan, the same night that the spirit of Jesus was raised to heaven." (Tabaqat Ibn Sa'ad, vol III Page 26).

Source: www.alislam.org

Also, to re-emphasize the point again, when Jesus Christ (pbuh) was himself questioned about the raising up to heaven of Prophet Elijah (peace be on him) and his prophesized return as harbinger to The Messiah, Jesus had explained that the raising and the return-prophecy were both allegorical.

Shattering a myth: The real meaning of "Raising Up To Heaven"

Conclusion

The Christians have Jesus (pbuh) returning riding a cloud and subsequently built imagery of him being surrounded by thousands of Angels. If Jesus's return was to be so supernaturally spectacular why would he and the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) warn us of false prophets? That many will come in his name and deceive many. The supernatural event makes the risk of false prophets redundant.

The mainstream Muslim notion has Jesus (pbuh) descending upon a white minaret east of Damascus with his hands resting upon the shoulders of two Angels and heavenly water dripping down from his forehead. Then Jesus (pbuh) and the Imam Mahdi (as a separate figure) will establish the rule of Islam in the world by way of war and conquest not sparing anyone’s life who would reject their religion. This would apparently occur in complete contradiction to the injunction of The Holy Quran that there can be no compulsion in religion.

The literal interpretations of these prophecies are doubtful. Any prophet to come or who has already come hopefully will not take up sides along religious politics, but will take up the side of the righteous.

In this Hub I have cited verse of The Holy Quran and verse from the Gospels which support the case that the second advent of Jesus Christ (pbuh) was to be a highly allegorical event in the same spirit as second advents have occurred in the past. It is difficult to accept it as something that creates grave inconsistencies in the nature of prophetic discourse that we have known so far and in contradiction to scripture.

In the next Hub, I will take up another subject often raised by Muslims in their united opposition to the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam--- that the Ahmadiyya were planted by the British rulers of India at the time in a supposed attempt to quash the concept of Jihad and mitigate any uprising. This is also related to the current events surrounding the issue of terrorism in the name of religion.

Disclaimer: The contents of this Hub do not officially represent The Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam or the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. The official website of The Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam or The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is www.alislam.org. I write these Hubs in my personal capacity.

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    • Monisa Ahmed profile image

      monisa 3 years ago from India

      Assalamualaikum Amer, I think that whatever you say is correct from your point of view, but I do not think that there is any Ahadith that says Jesus(pbuh) and the Imam Mahdi will rule over the world with swords. It is total contradiction to the verse relating to the Al Quran which says That- Let there be no compulsion in religion, the truth stands clear from error. I think that the coming of the Mahdi and the Isa ibn Maryam (May peace be with them) is not a lie. Also I agree that they would never harm people, but it may be possible that the people of this world, if their eyes believe the unseen which they did not see anything like it will automatically fall in righteousness and follow Islam. what do you think about this as it seems to me that you may know something about it?

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      Walikum Salaam warehmatulla Monisa,

      You are correct. People take words literally whereas scripture is known to be written in parables and metaphors. For example, in Luke 19:27 Jesus (pbuh) says: “But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me”. I don’t think anyone who truly believes in Jesus (pbuh) can ever contemplate this verse literally. What Jesus (pbuh) means is to slaughter their position, their arguments and their falsehoods.

      What the hadith say is that the Messiah Ibne Maryam will slay the Dajjal. Dajjal means deception. For example, from the point of view of Muslims, considering Prophet Jesus (pbuh) as God is a great deception of our time. The Muslim world has a lot of deception such as the mistaken concept of Jihad and promises of paradise for slaughtering infidels and attributing such acts to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Living a life of worldly gain devoid of spiritual and divine light that the world is falling into is also a deception that leads people away from God. Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said that Dajjal will be blind in the right-eye and his left-eye will be bulging—right eye is known to represent spirituality and left-eye is known to represent worldliness. Dajjal or Anti-Christ is also believed to have a material manifestation so to speak. For example, Christian and Islamic Eschatologists have chronicled that there is a likely Masonic world-government or global power structure that already exists. If you study the characteristics of Masonry there is a lot of emphasis on Deism which rejects scripture, and it speaks of human advancement and validation through gain of scientific knowledge. Like it is diminishing the concept of salvation from our Creator. Apparently, they would rather have us watch TV, tabloid, indulge in promiscuity, and devote energy to getting a nicer car than seeking out salvation from our Creator. There is a ring of truth to it especially if you study the prophecies in Gospels, Quran and Hadith.

      Now, per my belief, I have accepted who I believe to be the Messiah sent to guard the faithful against this deception. By doing so I have pledged allegiance that I will follow the 10 conditions laid out by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) until my dying day. For now, think of it as the 10 commandments of prophet Moses (pbuh). If I end up true to the pledge, then by salvation the Messiah has slayed the Dajjal or Anti-Christ for me. This is a spiritual war. Per those conditions I cannot even harm any creature of God let alone human beings I consider Infidels. And thus Dajjal would be slayed for me in the physical world too.

      As for the second part of your question, that if people see a supernatural phenomenon powerful enough, they will accept the Mahdi and Messiah and hasten to righteousness. In my view, I do not agree. Because, it has never happened this way and it is not God’s way. Allah Amighty in the Holy Quran says that He does not change his sunnah or way. Also, logic dictates that if prophets always arrived in this manner, who in their right mind would reject them or raise opposition. And also, if this was the case then prophets Muhammad (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) would not have warned us against false claimants. They would have said . . . just wait for when you see the known laws of science breaking all around you in what can only be an act of God, there never will be a question of deception or false claims. It has never happened this way and God Almighty would not change the rules this time.

      The way the signs manifest is how they have happened in the past. People oppose and persecute the prophets and their followers intensely—yet they cannot overcome even over a prolonged period of time. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) underwent severe persecution for 13 years and never abandoned his mission. The early followers of Jesus (pbuh) were persecuted for nearly 300 years and made a life for themselves in the catacombs around Rome but never abandoned their mission even as they were fed to lions by cruel persecutors. The video in this Hub shows the prophecy from the Book of Matthew which says that the followers of The Second Coming of The Messiah will be hated by nations (of a world ruled by the Anti-Christ). But no matter how much they are opposed and hated, they will not be overcome. That is the sign. And it is a far more glorious sign than a magic show in the sky. The Hadith say that Messiah Ibne Maryam will descend on a white minaret East of Damascus with his arms resting on the shoulders of two angels and heavenly water dripping from his forehead. For me this is clearly metaphorical language. If anyone wants to believe in it literally, so be it. All I will say is . . . history-is-not-on-your-side.

    • Monisa Ahmed profile image

      monisa 3 years ago from India

      But Brother, I do not think that we can believe in the prophecy in the book of Matthew. Since we cannot say what is the truth we clearly stick to the Ahadith and the Quran for Allah's guidelines. I do not find the prophecy to be correct since the book is man's innovation. What do you have to say about this?

    • amer786 profile image
      Author

      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      Sister Monisa,

      In my view, The Gospels should not rejected wholesale. The Books of Allah (including The Gospels) are a requirement of the Articles of Faith in Islam. We do believe that distortions and innovations have crept into the Gospels as they have with interpretations of The Quran— I believe you agree that interpretations by Muslim clerics that the Messiah and Mahdi will put people to death on basis of religion are innovations. But, with careful study and some criteria we can reasonably determine what is worthy of rejection and is not and what we don’t know about. For example, many Christian scholars including Sir Isaac Newton (the famous Christian scientist) have determined that the doctrine of trinity in Christianity that calls for Jesus (pbuh) to be believed in as God was an innovation of the Council of Nicea in the 4th century. But that doesn’t mean that everything in the Gospels is false.

      As far as the prophecy in Book of Matthew about being served up to be hated by nations, this is just one prophecy. Latter-days prophecies is a broad subject and what I look for is that if a prophecy agrees with history, with current events, with other prophecies and with scripture. If you read the ‘Messianic Parallel’ piece of this hub and the prophecy of Muhammad (pbuh) that his followers will divide into 73 sects and only one will be rightly-guided and that his followers will come to resemble what the Jews did in opposition to the Messiah that came to them, then this prophecy from Book of Matthew is agreeing with it. I believe what he is saying is that these events will repeat themselves. As the followers of the first Messiah were persecuted and hated, so will it be with the second coming. On the prophecy of hate and death for the followers of the Messiah, here are a couple of interesting videos . . .

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUCnAjD_kVM&lis...

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECdBnE-Kj7k&lis...

      Of course, you are free to believe what you feel is right. If this subject is important to you, I suggest you study it over a broader time-period with several sources and with patience. Allah Almighty in Surah Asr tells us that he is with the patient. Most important, supplicate to Allah with a pure and unbiased heart, admitting one’s ignorance and seeking His knowledge. Without salvation, there is no solution. If I can assist in answering any questions or share my view, feel free to reach out.

    • Monisa Ahmed profile image

      monisa 3 years ago from India

      InshaAllah, I'll do a research about it.

    • Monisa Ahmed profile image

      monisa 3 years ago from India

      Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh. Amer, do you believe that Gulam Ahmed was the real Mahdi as he claimed? I did some research about this topic and it seems to me that the People Of the Ahmadiyya Movement have positive views about this one and I see that you keep saying this. I have the question since I guess you belong to the same movement doesn't make the truth because you say so. And later on, the fact that this fellow died and never met Isa ibn Maryam (AS) contradicts which that Ahadith. The Coming Mahdi will never try to say in public that -"I'm the Mahdi, please follow me".

    • Monisa Ahmed profile image

      monisa 3 years ago from India

      I believe that you do not know one thing, ie. If Isa ibn Maryam(AS) was taken up from the world by angels when Allah gave them the command, then they can also sent him back when Allah comands them. AND FOR ALLAH ALL THINGS ARE EASY AND MOST PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND...Allah keeps saying this in the Quran. According to the Quran, you are left astray brother if you deny the truth. The man claimed to be the Mahdi is not the real Mahdi. The Mahdi will bear the name of the Prophet(Pbuh) and his father's name will be some as the Prophet's (Pbuh) father in madinah. This man may not be the righteous man but Allah will make him among the righteous in one night, InshaAllah. Furthermore, the Mahdi will never claim that he is the real Mahdi. People will recognize him and will claim that he is the one.the Holy Prophet (Pbuh) claim that he was send from Allah to guide us and showed us the revelation. In this case, He had a prove, the words from Allah to claim that he was the last Messenger to this Mankind. Isa ibn Maryam (AS) will decent in this world with his hands resting on the angels wings is true since for my Lord it is easy to do and I do not take this as a Fairytale. Allah had created the heavens and the Earth and I do not find what's the big deal for sending Isa ibn Maryam (AS) down on earth, its easy for Allah, SubhanAllah! You are entirely wrong because you lack positive thinking and your words deny most from the Quran and the Sahih Ahadith. You are Astray brother, think it again. Nor any book is mightier than the holy Quran, your Iman is weaker and that's why you do not understand. JazakALLAH khair.

    • amer786 profile image
      Author

      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      Dear Sister Monisa, walaikum salaam warehmatulla wabarakatu,

      You are correct, no one becomes a Mahdi (Divine Guide) because I say so. If someone does then it is by the decree of Almighty Allah.

      Yes, anything is easy for the Lord who created the Heavens and the Earth. But just because things are easy for Him, or that He can do anything does not mean that it is the truth or that He has decided to do it. In the Hub above, I give two verses from the Holy Quran that state that Muhammad (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) lived and died like other Messengers of Allah Almighty. In the Holy Quran Allah says that I do not change my Sunnah (way or methods). If you follow what you are saying then it is up to you to resolve this contradiction, if you accept it as a contradiction or if you even care to resolve it.

      This is nothing new. The Jews are 3,000 years in the waiting for The Messiah. Their reasons for rejecting Jesus (pbuh) are similar to those you mentioned.

      Who is true and who is strong and who is weak will be decided by Allah Almighty. I do not care to make such proclamations.

      I believe this ends our conversation and exchange.

      Wasalaam and Peace and Blessings.

    • pintails7886 profile image

      pintails7886 3 years ago from Memphis TN

      Salam Amer. Thank you for referring me here. Your hub was very insightful and well written. May Allah Bless you for your efforts.

      I see also you have many examples from haddith to support your view. I was wondering besides the 2 mentioned do you have other verses in either the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an?

      I agree with you that Muslims often disregard the Gospel and Torah even though Qur'an and Allah say these are the Word of Allah. We often say they have been translated too many times. This is true for the average Bible you buy in the US and in Europe this is not true for all Bibles. The Jewish Bible still contains all of the Books of the Dead Sea Scrolls in their original Aramaic. I suggest you read the Honored Gospel of Mary (may peace be upon her) found here.

      http://www.maryofmagdala.com/GMary_Text/gmary_text...

      And the Gospel of Judas found here

      http://www.gospels.net/judas/

      There are several other books in the Aramaic Bible that do not appear in the typical western Bible.

      I am hesitant to elevate a man to prophet hood without great works. All of the Prophets and even Mary pbuta, had great works and proof that they were Prophets. I am not ridiculing your beliefs, I just wish to see more Biblical, Quranic, and Torah proofs of this claim. You can recite haddith but I personally will reject haddith as proof. The haddith is much more questionable than even the Bible is with missing books.

    • amer786 profile image
      Author

      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      Pintalis,

      Below is a link to a short book called on the official Islam Ahmadiyya website called “The Quranic Evidence: The Truthfulness of The Promised Messiah (pbuh)”. I strongly suggest you read the whole thing which is quite short . . .

      http://www.alislam.org/library/books/truthfulness/...

      As far as the Old and New Testament, did you get a chance to see the video at the end of the Hub called “The Second Coming According to The Gospels”? Most of the verses there are from Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and I believe one or two from Daniel 12.

      I personally read the King James Version published by Thomas Nelson Bibles. Any thoughts about that? Thanks a lot for the references, why did you refer those specific books? Are those translated from original Aarmaic? Are these among those that you said don’t show up in Bibles in the west? I am interested in reading those books but want to get some more background.

      Also, Ahmadi-Muslims have a unique take on what actually happened to Jesus (pbuh) . . .

      http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Did-Jesus...

      No argument from me on the great caution and undertaking it is to accept someone’s claim to prophethood. I’ve already given my sentiment in a comment on your Hub on “The Forgotten Quran . . .” However, I feel one needs to bear in mind that when we look upon what you say as ‘proofs and evidences’ of Muhammad, Jesus and Mary (peace be on them all) we are looking upon developed legends, particularly because they have been confirmed for us by The Quran and earlier scriptures. But the actual course of events for those who faced their claims of being by God would have been very different. Remember, The Quran bears testimony that all true prophets were mocked, persecuted and treated as liars in their lifetimes by large amounts of people. However, their following and legend continued long after their demise, which would be a sign!

    • pintails7886 profile image

      pintails7886 3 years ago from Memphis TN

      Thank you for understanding my position.

      Honestly the different versions of the bible can get quite confusing. I have several copies of it and they all say something different on the same verse. However the true is the same for translated "Qur'an" which is why we should read in the original text.

      Yes these books are from the original Aramaic. I mention them and I should have mentioned the Book of Enoch. As the Book fo Enoch predicts the Coming of Jesus, Muhammad, and the final Prophet peace upon them all.

      The book of Mary is forgotten to Christianity as is Enoch, Judas because of a few reasons, Mainly Muhammad peace upon him is mentioned by NAME, and this book is dated to centuries before his birth. Also the Book of Enoch contains evidence of dinosaurs. The Book of Judas tells his side of the Crucifixion and how Jesus asked him to do it. The Book of Mary describes the missing 30 year of the life of Jesus peace upon him. We must remember Amer that Allah did not chose the prophets because they were perfect. He chose them because they all sinned and Allah wanted to show everyone can be saved. Also one must remember ALL of these books are found in the Dead Sea Scrolls which date back to before Jesus.

      As for the version of the Bible I read, I have one that I have shared with many Christian pastors who then adopted it. It is published without verse, so you will never hear me refer to verse unless I need to show absolute evidence to my claims. I almost always refer to the book only. This helps us to not cherry pick sentences to support our claims and maintains context which is very important when quoting the Holy Word so as not to defer meanings for your own cause against the Word of Allah. This however is my beliefs.

      I mention the proofs because I have to say, I preach against war, I preach to both Christians and Muslims to set aside differences and come together as Qur'an Bible and Torah tell us to. I am greatly persecuted for this. I am shunned from both Churches and Mosques. I am no saint, I am no prophet. All of my friends have left my side, all of my new Muslim friends deny me for such things.

      I am not saying you are wrong. I am just expressing my caution which I think you understand. I will look at your evidence, far be it from me to claim who is or is not a Prophet of the Lord. I just restate it so that you have patience and understanding of what I say. Many false prophets have used those same verses and had those same experience just to take their followers to Hell. David Koresh, Jim Jones, Aum Shinrikyo, Marshall Applewhite. Just to name a few of the thousands.

      That said yes it is true all of the Prophets were shunned and denied. But this alone to me is not proofs of Prophet-hood. I will not deny that from what I read of Ahmed he was almost certainly a Saint if nothing else. His good works can not be denied. Though unfortunately much of his efforts were in vain. I do not mean to belittle your research I am simply reaffirming my position.

      It is not my place to interpret scripture to elevate a person to Prophet-hood. I will however consider a person a Saint. This is two different things one is Ordained by Allah, the other is named after death through their works by men.

      The way I see the prophecies is that Allah will work them into motion regardless of my beliefs. I read the prophecies and I try an understand what message I should from them. That said I do not believe that any person on earth has the right to interpret the prophesies. To me these are simply a way to show us that Allah is real. When we see the unmistakable signs we will know. This is what I mean by proofs, all of the Prophets had them. I would like to know if Ahmed had any. Beyond scripture. Again, I do not care what the haddith says. This is my personal feelings and from what I have read in the Bible Torah and Qur'an I have rejected the haddith. Forgive me if that puts limitations on you. As I said you can post them but I will ignore them. I do not consider any haddith even the one where Muhammad pbuh said not to write it. Because the Word of Allah says not to accept anything by man mixed with Islam. This is not my interpretation but a very clear and context-ed statement.

      Again I will look into Ahmed more inshaa Allah. Far be it from me to deny a Prophet of the Lord. I ask for more scripture so I can compare him to the known Prophets who had Divine Revelations. Did Ahmed have any? I am curious. I know of his work but not in detail?

      If any of this has offended you, please forgive me because that was not my intentions. I am simply trying to understand while stating my firm beliefs. I will look at these scriptures you listed. It may take some time, but in the mean time I see no reason we can not be friends. I have never rejected any Muslim, Christian, or Jew from being a friend. I have only allowed them to reject me or reject Allah or Jesus for Christians.

      Inshaa Allah I have a conference with a Christian Church this weekend to help spread the message of Brotherhood. That we may except each other and not hate. Please pray for me.

    • amer786 profile image
      Author

      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      I have great respect for your thoughts and position, which is more than I can say for most. You do not offend me in the least, in fact it is refreshing for you to share your thoughts and outlook. If you are being shunned by churches and mosques in this day and age, you must be saying something right, :)

      Thank you for the Biblical information. It was news to me that Book of Enoch contains the name ‘Muhammad’, if you could kindly provide the reference whenever you have the chance. I thought the Gospel of Barnabas (which I believe is shunned by the Church) was the only one that contained the name.

      Agree on imperfection of the prophets. I think in the events narrated in the Quran on Iblis (or Lucipher) who held privilege of the company of God but when was tested in obedience refused to bow to God’s supposedly inferior creation. He does manage to seduce Adam & Eve into the forbidden fruit but the crux is that Adam asks for forgiveness, is forgiven and ends his story on the right side, which is what prophets do—an example and teaching for the rest of us.

      May I suggest that whereas it may not be your place to interpret scripture and determine who is a prophet, it is very much your place to ask Allah with a pure heart and expect a response.

      As for revelations, we believe that Hazrat Ahmad (pbuh) held a great communion with the Lord just like other prophets of God. Among the revelations is that it is he who is The Promised Messiah or The Mahdi or what is understood as the second advent of Christ. He made this claim profusely. It is important to note that there was no revelation that adds to or takes away anything from The Holy Quran as revealed to the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as final dispensation of heavenly law and guidance for mankind. He was a follower-prophet born into the religion just like Jesus (pbuh). His mission is to revive the religion of Islam by reinstituting its true teachings and a following of The Quran (related to the prophecy you mention in your Hub about people abandoning the Quran), mend the rift between God and His creation, and to condemn violence and bloodshed similar to Jesus’s (pbuh) teaching (regrettably most so-called Muslims today believe that the Messiah and Mahdi will violently put down those who refuse to accept Islam—of course this is false as it directly contradicts the injunction of The Quran that there can be no compulsion in religion).

      You say that you feel much of Hazrat Ahmad’s (pbuh) work was in vain. May I ask what leads you to believe that? Not being defensive, but just curious.

      I would like to raise one point. Please don’t take this the wrong way. If someone is accepted as a saint and rejected as a claimant to prophethood- this statement is not tenable. No true saint will make a false claim of such enormity and as far as I know there is no such example in history. The true saints who were prophets we know from history. A rejected prophet must then also be rejected as a saint due to the position that he is a liar and imposter. If this raises a contradiction then it is up to the position-holder to reconcile it or to have a valid rejoinder. However, I do fully respect the fact that people can be agnostic about the claim. But if they do ultimately reject, then the rejection has to be wholesome and would cut through all other virtues such as sainthood. I believe this is what prophet Muhammad (pbuh) meant as the Quran testifies to his statement to the Meccans who rejected him and accused him. He said that “I have spent a lifetime among you”. If he was widely regarded as a truthful person, then no such person of honorable character and nobility makes such a false claim as such. This is what would distinguish him from the David Koreshes and Jim Jones of the world.

      I wish all the best in your endeavors to ‘mend the rift’ with the Churches, Mosques, Synagogues and any other place of worship of the Lord. You are very much in my prayers, and please remember me in yours. I believe our friendship will survive our religious convictions as longs as our hearts are in the right place and we seek guidance from Allah alone for the things that we should and have to.

    • pintails7886 profile image

      pintails7886 3 years ago from Memphis TN

      It was not my intention to compare him to those vile cult leaders. I am sorry if you got that impression. I was simply stating them as talking points of false prophets. I am sorry if you got the impression that I was saying he was like those cursed men. As Ahmed (may Allah be please with him) did not lead hundreds to their deaths as did these men I mentioned.

      On the matter of sainthood though, I respectfully disagree and here is why. Because even the Prophets and Mary (peace upon them all) at one time or another rejected Allah. They all cursed Allah at one time or another for the burdens Allah placed upon them. This at least is what the Qur'an the Torah and Bible tell us respectfully. I think the idea of "perfection" we place on men is unwarranted. As great as these people were they were humans and they all made mistakes. To place them on a pedestal of perfection is no different than to worship the Pope in Catholicism. Which is to say that they are infallible like God on earth. This simply is not the case.

      Yes you are correct about Barnabas, forgive my mistake. I meant to say that Enoch predicted both Jesus and Muhammad, peace upon them, and the proofs associated with them. However Enoch was mostly rejected because of the description of dinosaurs, which he called giant lizards. The Catholic Church felt this was too fantastic of a claim and removed the book. We must realize that at this time dinosaurs were not well known, an example would be the Mammoth bones found in Greece that the people said were bones of Giants. Enoch also spoke of fallen Angels who slept with humans against the Will of Allah.

      With Satan however the haddith, and the Bible have distorted the image of Satan. The Torah and the Dead Sea Scrolls tell us something about Satan that is confirmed in the prophecies in the Bible and the Qur'an. If you read them they clearly say that Satan WILL BE cast from Heaven, this being future tense. The Honored Torah tells us that Lucifer was Allah's favorite Angel, but when man was created Lucifer became jealous of their free will and disgusted by mans rejection of Allah. The Torah and the Bible go on to tell us that to show Lucifer that God is right, God allowed Lucifer to come down to earth to temp us humans.

      Both of these documents go on to say that during the time of Judgement on the Final Day. Lucifer will play a role more akin to a Federal Prosecutor. In our Trials Lucifer will present Allah with all of our bad deeds except those which have been forgotten by Allah and removed from our souls. So Allah will allow Lucifer to return to Heaven with his followers on this Last Day. Remember Lucifer has not been cast yet, this does not happen until the final battle, he was ALLOWED to go to earth to temp man. When our Final Judgement are done, Allah will then cast Lucifer from Heaven along with those of us who are damned and the Angels that followed him in tempting us humans and those who came to earth to mate with human women. This was also part of the reason of the great floods. To rid the world of these half breeds that we an abomination.

      We see in Isiah 14 this is clearly talking about the future;

      10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

      Revelations clearly tells us that Lucifer is not cast out until the Final Day in Revelations 12 verse 9.

      And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

      Jude 1 verse 6 also tells us this.

      And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

      And so does John 17 along with many other books of the bible.

      John 17: (verify verse #) talks of the time of judgment, the prince of this world will be driven out.

      Verses such as Job 1:6 tell us that Satan is most certainly still allowed in Heaven until the Final Judgement.

      Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

      2 Chronicles 18 verses 18-21 affirm the role that Satan plays and are affirmation about Allah allowing Satan to rule the earth.

      18 And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: hI saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. 19 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab the king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. 20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ 21 And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be ia lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’

      Now to why I say Ahmed's work was in vain. He set out to unite Islam and Christianity and to make Jihad the original intent of Allah, which was to war evil within ones own self. Since his time these too things have become worse than they were before. He died without having accomplished his goals, and other Muslims have made it a point to erase his works where ever possible. Though the Word of Allah tells us that these things will not come to be until the Final Judgement. So I guess his works were not in vain entirely, but were instead used as a tool to further divide Islam. I am not saying this was his intent I am saying that is what was made of his works, this is what I meant when I said they were in vain. Though the way I see Ahmed now, is much how I view Ali, these two men were made to be prophets of Islam and Allah without the consent of Allah. Again I need to further study these men but this is my beliefs from what I know about these 2.

      I agree with you about saying something right and being shunned. The other day I had a conversation in which I was trying to show them that only 3% of Muslims are "terrorists". I said you should forgive the innocent and not judge them unfairly. She responded by saying "I love Jesus, and I will have to ask Jesus if I should love Muslims". So I referred her to the book of Mark 5 in which Jesus said;

      43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

      And she told me that I was disgusting because I love terrorists. However I never said I loved them, all I ever said was I prayed for them as Allah told me to. I do not love evil people but I do not hate them either. It is not my place to judge their deeds. It is only my place to do that which Allah has Willed. It shocked me that a person could both claim Jesus and mock him in the same sentence. I saw then that her heart was not yet ready for God, and I discontinued our discussion and prayed for her. This is just one example and Muslims are guilty of it also. I guess we all are at some point. But we are not meant to be perfect but only to try to live as we should.

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      Thank you for the detailed response, some interesting thoughts and points there.

      I believe that Hazrat Ahmad’s (pbuh) works will not be in vain. Allah’s dispensation and decree will take its ordained period, but I believe it will be fulfilled. The early Christians dug a life for themselves in catacombs to escape the severe hounding and persecution for 300 years. To the casual observer, one could shun them as castaways and declare Jesus’s (pbuh) mission to be in vain. But Allah in the Quran says, “My Messengers will prevail”. Hazrat Ahmad (pbuh) has prophesized a similar period of 300 years for his movement, which we believe to be ordained by Allah, to achieve its success in uniting the Muslims and consolidating mankind and religion under Islam. He said he has come to sow the seed. This remains to be seen, we have our faith and others have theirs.

      As far as the comparison with Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him), Ali is not known to have made a claim to prophet-hood despite what notions some people come up with. But in Hazrat Ahmad’s case the claims and announcements were profuse, loud and clear.

      On schism and sectarianism in Islam plus the point-of-view that Ahmadiyya is just another schism, a couple of facts: Ahmadiyya has been unprecedentedly and unanimously opposed by all the other sects of Islam. I know you are not for hadith but this agrees with the 72 vs. 1 hadith-prophecy and also with verse 59:14 of The Quran which states that prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) enemies were united in their opposition to him, yet their hearts were divided. Same is true for the divisions in Islam, their opposition to each other such as Sunni vs. Shia or Deobandi vs. Barelvi is fierce, the only known catalyst for their unison is the Ahmadiyya movement, they have never come together on any other agreement. Secondly, Ahmidyya is the only schism (if you will) that claims to be following the Messiah prophesized by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), no other schism is doing that and thus they have no valid grounds for their schism. Please also note that by the 72 or many sects I mean the Imams and scholars and those who take their word. I know that many Muslims do not identify with the schisms and their Imams. So, if the schism is the enemy. And the schisms have declared Ahmadiyya as their enemy. Then the enemy of my enemy is my friend (forgive me for throwing that line in there but always wanted to use it).

      I hope you don’t mind, just having a conversation here. If I am being overbearing or irksome, just let me know. I know this is hallow ground between man and God so I don’t want to tread anymore than I should. You have been gracious enough to listen and be kind.

      In the end, it is Allah alone who guides—hope you make the call.

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      On schism, thought this may be worth a view . . .

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo05fSfVLXs

    • pintails7886 profile image

      pintails7886 3 years ago from Memphis TN

      You might be right, maybe they are not. I was not aware of the 300 year period before the completion. I am not sure what claims Ali may or may not have made. I try and steer clear of the topics that divide Islam.

      You however have not been pushy. You have simply tried to answer the questions I have asked of you. I am not knowledgeable on many of these things. I guess though I should try to learn more about these topics so when I debate someone on Islam I can know more of their views.

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 3 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      "We are spirits and not merely attain to be."

      Christianity and Islam agree on the resurrection of Jesus. Mohammad knew the resurrection story and never denied it. Mohammad took Jesus as true and Jesus predicted his resurrection (three times), so Mohammad accepted the resurrection as true. The resurrection objectively proves the afterlife exists because one cannot come back from nothing. A place or condition must first exist before there can be a return. There is no longer any doubt.

      In 4:157-8, The Holy Qur’an says, “That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah’, but killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge. No, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is exalted in Power, Wise.”

      To a person who believes that Jesus is true, 4:157-8 is the Good News of the Bible. Jesus physically “died”, but his spirit lived. His physical body was crucified, but not the spirit. Death is a separation between the spirit and the physical body. His spirit then returned to His physical body to prove his power over death, then and now. Those who do not believe this are filled with doubts (about an afterlife). All mankind are spirits (energy) attached to physical bodies.

      Mohammad was a Man, a spirit attached to a physical body. All Men make mistakes. All violence done in his name was and still is, a mistake. Jesus was non-violent and Mohammad was pro-Jesus. Mohammad witnessed for Jesus. All violence in the name of God, Allah, Jesus or Mohammad is a mistake. Once a mistake is acknowledged, it may be forgiven.

      Foremost: we are spirit energy attached to a physical body.

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      @Jay C OBrien

      If you take 4:157 along the lines of the popular Christian notion then how do you reconcile it with 5:75 and 3:144?

      As far as the raising to heaven in 4:157, above in the Hub I give several references from The Holy Quran that the Arabic term for 'raising' when used for believers and prophets means 'exalt' or 'to raise in ranks'. Perhaps you can provide some cross-reference of the term being applied as a resurrection

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 3 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      Thank you for your answer. Please understand that I am not Christian in the popular sense and so do not represent them. Please explain what you mean in your first sentence.

      Does Islam teach that we are spiritual beings? If not, what do they teach?

      My approach is that we are all spiritual beings, you, me, Jesus, Mohammed, everyone. We are all equal because we are all spirits. This concept explains both 4:157 and 5:75. It is not blaspheme to say we are spirit. I do not believe God/Allah is made up of multiple persons or personalities. If this were so, then God/Allah would suffer from multiple personality disorder. God would be insane.

      I do not understand 3:144 so I cannot comment.

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      In my first sentence I was responding to your assertion that Islam supports the death and resurrection of Jesus. My point is that 4:157 cannot be taken in the death and resurrection sense since then it cannot be reconciled with 5:75 and 3:144 which are explaining that Muhammad (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) will live and die per the same manner as all the prophets before them. Therefore, 4:157 would not be meaning a 'resurrection' but rather exalting spiritually as can be inferred by studying various verses in Holy Quran where 'raising' is mentioned.

      Yes, Islam does teach that we are spiritual beings as well as physical beings. And there is a spiritual order as there is a physical order.

      3:144 is emphasizing the same principle as 5:75-- that prophets too live and die per the prescribed physical order.

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 3 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      Thank you very much for your explanation. It is very helpful. Perhaps you misunderstood me.

      I did not say that 4:157 spoke of the resurrection of Jesus. I said that we are spiritual beings attached to a physical body. If 4:157 is read tracing the departure of the spirit then it is the Good News of the Bible, He is alive (as a spirit). Since Islam does teach that we are spiritual as well as physical beings (while on this earth) we are reconciled on this point.

      As to the resurrection I said: Mohammad (pbuh) knew of the resurrection story and never denied it. If a denial is in the Holy Quran please point it out.

      Mohammad (pbuh) denied the trinity story outright, but not the resurrection story. This should make you think, Why did he deny one and not the other?

      Jesus (pbuh) predicted his resurrection three times:

      1. Matt 16:21-28 Mark 8:31 Luke 9:22

      2. Matt 17:22-23 Mark 9:30-32 Luke 9:43-45

      3. Matt 20:17-19 Mark 10:32-34 Luke 18:31-34

      Mohammad (pbuh) stated Jesus was true and called Him the Christ. Mohammad then accepted what Jesus said about himself, the resurrection story.

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      @Jay C O'Brien,

      Apologies, I may have misunderstood. Indeed, I see it as a fundamental truth that scriptures often agree with each other such as 4:157 being good news of The Holy Bible.

      I would like to ask you what exactly you mean by resurrection? Do you mean death and then return to physical life? As far as the resurrections goes, I feel that it may genuinely have been mistaken as a death-and-resurrection whereas it really was have been a near-death experience. The Holy Quran categorically in 4:157 says that ". . . they did not kill him, nor crucify him . . .but he appeared to them as such". So technically, Holy Quran is denying a resurrection as there was no death. Unless you take resurrection to be something different than death and then return to physical life.

      Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) would have accepted in the same sense as 4:157 is self-explaining-- no death, a state of swoon perhaps, and finally a revival, just like Jesus (pbuh) himself predicted as 'the sign of Jonah'-- who nearly died but survived after being in a swoon for three days in the belly of the fish (Matthew 12:39-40).

      I believe the verses you mention from Holy Bible are really speaking to this phenomenon.

      God bless brother.

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 3 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      Thank you for your explanation. Perhaps we are getting somewhere. Below I copied your words.

      The Holy Quran categorically in 4:157 says that ". . . they did not kill him, nor crucify him . . .but he appeared to them as such". So technically, Holy Quran is denying a resurrection as there was no death. Unless you take resurrection to be something different than death and then return to physical life.

      Now, please try and follow what I propose: we are spirits, not the physical body. I will now add to your words to emphasize the spirit/energy body.

      The Holy Quran categorically in 4:157 says that ". . . they did not kill him (his spirit), nor crucify him (his spirit). . .but he (his physical body) appeared to them as such (crucified and killed)". So technically, Holy Quran is stating there was no death of the spirit/spiritual energy. The resurrection is proof of an afterlife because of the return to physical life.

      By this reading 4:157 does Not deny the resurrection, but affirms the everlasting life of a spirit (not the physical body). Is there anywhere in the Quran where the resurrection is denied?

      Think spiritually not physically. What does Islam teach about Near Death Experiences? NDEs.

      The resurrection is like the virgin birth. Both are not normal, but possible by God's leave. If you teach one, you can teach the other. The same writings can prove both. It just depends on how you read them.

      Remember, neither of us are fact witnesses. We were not there to experience the event. All we can do is rely on the books, no matter how corrupted. The amount of corruption is unknown.

      What is wrong with the resurrection story? It only objectively proves an afterlife. What is wrong with that? What objective proof do you have of an afterlife besides the resurrection? In the end, do you wish to reconcile Christianity with Islam or keep them separate? What are you afraid of, or what is the down side of the resurrection story?

      Lastly, I do not believe the Jonah and the fish story.

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      I can understand your thinking. I do believe in the spiritual order much as the physical order. But I do not agree with your opinion/interpretation of 4:157. Interchanging between physical and spiritual like this would cause much convolution, either one should treat a narration as a parable, or spiritual or physical. And if there is a combination then it needs to be clear what is spiritual and what is physical. What is being talked about here is a physical discourse. From history, the Jews never said “we killed the Messiah’s spirit” (as in they corrupted him)-- they tried to have him physically die an accursed death by crucifixion to strip his claim and prove that he could not have been the Messiah.

      The virgin birth now has a scientific explanation known as Parthenogenesis. It is not confirmed in humans but a scientific process is known which can instigate cell division in a womb without impetus from male sperm which has confirmation in animal reproduction. Death and resurrection after a 3-day period has no pretext nor known explanation. Clinical deaths are for short periods.

      The Holy Quran at least does not have textual corruption or alteration for 1,400 years. Given this fact, it’s consolidation and eventual establishment is also believed to be divinely guided. Verse 15:09 says “Verily, We have sent down The Exposition (Quran), and We are its guardian”. The Holy Quran, like The Holy Bible, has many prophecies in it that have served as authority and authentication for those who accept. That makes it fact enough for me. Interpretation and insight is a different matter.

      The downside and objection to the resurrection story is that it breaks away from order, consistency, pretext, rationality and good sense. You see what I love about 5:75 and 3:144 is that it agrees with rationality and the observable order of life. Resurrection story is not proof of afterlife because it is a story, it may serve as proof for you who believes in it, but not so for one who doesn’t. I can’t accept it as true just for the sake of reconciliation-- that would be wrong.

      To believe or not to believe in the Sign of Jonah is your prerogative Sir. I believe in it as it is affirmed by The Holy Quran. If you accept certain parts of scripture and reject others you should offer some explanation for it. I wouldn’t think, at least from deduction and logic, that someone who believes in The Resurrection would have a fundamental issue with The Sign of Jonah.

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 3 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      Very enlightening comments, thank you.

      I believe in reading 4:157 as suggested because it is a spiritual reading. Mohammad was a spiritual man writing and giving hope of spiritual things. We have agreed that Islam (and all religions) have a basic belief in spirituality. Reading 4:157 purely physically is materialism. Reading 4:157 spiritually is consistent with Mohammad and other scripture.

      I do not believe in the Jonah story for completely different reasons and it would take much explanation that is off point.

      I do agree that we should use reason and good sense in our reading of theology. I have had experiences in Telepathy which cannot be explained by physical logic. Therefore I invite you to my Hub Page, "My Telepathic Experiences." Also see, "Cayce Proved Jesus." Now you may not believe what I say, however the experiences are true and verified. Please let me know what you think.

      I accept in the Resurrection story because it is so well documented. By Allah's leave it could be done. It would also objectively prove an afterlife. What is your proof of a spirit or afterlife?????????

      Lastly, both the "Swoon Theory" and the "Trinity Theory" are both only theories. I reject them both. I do not see any evidence of a "Swoon" in any of the citations I gave above. To say, "I will be killed and raised up again in three days" is not the same as, "I will swoon." I would ask that you read the words as they are without projection. Do not forget the Roman soldier who drove a spear into the heart of Jesus to make sure he was dead. There was no swoon.

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      Thank you for your comment. I read your hubs on Telepathy and Mr. Cayce which were interesting. There certainly are things that can't be explained by logic and reason alone but we do need standards to judge and make criteria by, otherwise all kinds of exceptions can be entertained.

      I will conclude now that we have different views on these issues. My convictions are based on The Holy Quran using a criteria of validation that I have stated above in the previous comment. This also includes the after-life which is mentioned abundantly in The Holy Quran.

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 3 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      Please help me out. What proof is there of an afterlife in Islam (aside from simply stating it exists in one book, the Quran)? The resurrection story is told or referred to in several books by different authors.

      Again, what is wrong with the Resurrection story? What are you afraid of?

      Please take time to read a biography of Edgar Cayce, one is, "There is a River" by Thomas Sugrue. See if it meets your standards. Yes, standards are needed and I think this will do it.

      Swoon theory? Still never found a swoon in the Bible or the Quran. Who made it up and can it be trusted?

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      On after-life: it is not simply stating in The Quran that establishes proof for someone. First, you have to establish that The Holy Quran is from Allah and it is Allah’s own words. Then, it serves as proof by way of its statements.

      Sir, may I urge you to refrain from this line of questioning. I am not afraid. I just don’t consciously believe in it. 4:157 clearly says they never killed Jesus (pbuh). No death, no resurrection. Many agree that, per the events given in the gospels, death on the cross is unlikely in just a few hours with no broken legs.

      4:157 says that Jesus “appeared” to them as crucified, which is swoon. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) (1865-1908) author of “Jesus in India” probably the first person to consolidate a cohesive theory about Jesus’s survival. I definitely recommend you read the book which is available in PDF on www.alislam.org

      Among key scholars who have developed the swoon-survival theory are Holger Kirsten and Suzanne Olssen. Holger’s book is “Jesus Lived in India” and Suzanne’s “Jesus in Kashmir”. Both books are well researched.

      You can also check out my hub below which has a BBC Channel Four documentary (in the section called “Criticism”) on the theory. Like some Biblical scholars suggest in the documentary, the Matthew, Mark and Luke verses you quote where resurrection is mentioned, these are people who wrote the Gospels believing that Jesus (pbuh) died and was resurrected—but they have no way of knowing for sure. He could well have been in a swoon which makes more sense if you put all the facts together, including that they had a lot of Aloe and Myrrh herbs on hand when they took him for the supposed burial. Why would they do that if he was already dead. That is in the Gospels too. You have to reconcile.

      The hub on swoon:

      https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Did-Jesus...

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 3 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      I apologize if I offended you. I really do not know what question I asked to offend. I did not know some questions are off limits.

      Thank you for your hub on swoon. I quote here in part.

      One of the centurions then had pierced Jesus’s side in an apparent attempt to check for reaction if he is already dead. The account of this event in John 19:34 clearly speaks of blood and water gushing out—this does not happen in a body where the heart is no longer beating.

      I am not a doctor so I cannot render an opinion on heart conditions. I do find it interesting that the spear to the side is acknowledged. A spear to the side would indicate death, not life. Romans generally did their duty well. What would have happened to a Roman soldier who failed in capital punishment?

      If Jesus swooned at the crucifixion, but lived and fooled his followers, it would be very deceptive. It would not just be a cruel joke, but it would discredit Jesus. If Jesus is true and the Christ, why would he lie and fool his followers? Did Jesus lie to his followers so they believed he had resurrected?

      Please take time to read a biography of Edgar Cayce, one is, "There is a River" by Thomas Sugrue.

      Here is the main point I was going to make, before I got distracted with "swoon." Jesus taught a new doctrine of peace. Below is from my first post and is really the main point.

      All violence done in his name was and still is, a mistake. Jesus was non-violent and Mohammad was pro-Jesus. Mohammad witnessed for Jesus. All violence in the name of God, Allah, Jesus or Mohammad is a mistake. Once a mistake is acknowledged, it may be forgiven.

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      Amen

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 3 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      FYI, Because of this discussion, I have edited my Hub, "Christianity, Islam and the Resurrection," to include the possibility of a Near Death Experience. A NDE could be considered a resurrection depending on how "dead" you are. M.D.s now even acknowledge the existence of NDEs.

      Please do not use the word "swoon" as it is confusing. Instead the use of the term NDE, as it may be better understood. How widely are NDEs taught in Islam? Is there a reference in the Quran to this?

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      The use of terms "swoon" is how the subject is mostly referenced. You can check with searches on Google with these terms. The terms "Jesus" and "NDE" will not be as robust as "Jesus" & "Swoon".

      NDEs are not really taught widely or hold much bearing in teachings unless it is part of a specific event. The story of Jonah, which is in Quran is believed to be along the lines of a NDE.

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 3 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      If you believe as stated above:

      "As far as the resurrections goes, I feel that it may genuinely have been mistaken as a death-and-resurrection whereas it really was have been a near-death experience."

      and I tend to agree or can accept NDEs = resurrection;

      then why not teach NDEs?

      Here is a recent book on the subject, "Proof of Heaven," by Eben Alexander (a neurosurgeon).

      Please let me know what you think of, "There is a River," by Thomas Sugrue.

    • Donna Suthard profile image

      Donna Suthard 3 years ago

      Greetings, I wish to give a different perspective from Jesus Christ, from His advanced teachings in the Course In Miracles. Jesus reinterprets some of the the false teachings found in the Holy Bible..

      Chapter 3, first paragraph, pg. 36

      The crucifixion did not establish the Atonement, the resurrection did. Many sincere Christians have misunderstood this. No one who is free of the belief in scarcity could possibly make this mistake. If the crucifixion is seen from an upside---down point of view, it does appear as if God permitted an even encouraged one of His Sons to suffer because he was good. This particularly unfortunate interpretation, which arose out of perception, has lead many people to be bitterly afraid of God. Such anti-religious concepts enter into many religions. Yet the real Christian should pause and ask, How could this be? Is it likely that God Himself would be capable of the kind of thinking which His Own Words have clearly stated is unworthy of His Son.

      The best defense, as always is not to attack another's position, but rather to protect the truth. It is unwise to accept any concept if you have to invert a whole frame of reference in order to justify it. This procedure is painful in its minor applications and genuinely tragic on a wider scale. Persecution frequently results in an attempt to "justify" the terrible misperception that God Himself persecuted His own Son on behalf of salvation"

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      @Jay C O'Brien: I can agree with perceiving The Resurrection as a near-death experience and then a subsequent revival.

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 3 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      Whereas I can agree with Donna that God/Allah would not do violence against any of his children, I will point out atonement is individual and not vicarious. We are each responsible for our own atonement.

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 3 years ago from Los Angeles

      I would agree. Repentence and atonement should go hand-in-hand and it is for Allah to judge who deserves atonement. I have spoken to many Christians who regret the popular notion of peace-offering today that has resulted in widespread abandon of heavenly laws i.e. consumption of forbidden meats like pork.

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 3 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      Just a fine point here, Jesus did not judge the woman at the well and so taught us not to judge (condemn to the extent of spiritual pain). There is a thread which says we will judge ourselves, but God/Allah does not judge. Therefore we should learn to forgive ourselves as well as others.

    • Yaseen Malik profile image

      Yaseen Malik 2 years ago from London

      To Amer786

      Call an an Ace an Ace and a Spade a Spade!

      You know that the Ahmedia Movement has exploited the loopholes in the asylum systems of the West, and that is the only reason why Pakistani nationals have abandoned their Sunni Muslim upbringing for a better life complete with social and housing benefits, in West.

      They have colonised Europe by bogus pretence that Ghulam Mirza is the messiah and they have refrabricated religion on the Catholic model by worshipping their Hazoor.

      So don't justify what contradicts Allah's Law.

      The Messiah is Jesus son of Mary not some obscure Punjabi women born and died in the eighteenth century.

    • amer786 profile image
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      amer786 2 years ago from Los Angeles

      @Yaseen Malik,

      I did not write this Hub on asylum benefits in the west for those who would like to convert to Islam-Ahmadiyya. I have offered theological and rational arguments. I suggest you write a Hub and present your arguments on how The Islamic Messiah is the same who came to the Israelites 2,000 years ago. Let's see you call the ace an ace.

      Same thing goes for your other accusations on pretense and the Catholic model. What are your facts and arguments? What support and references do you have? Let's see your cards

    • Yaseen Malik profile image

      Yaseen Malik 2 years ago from London

      What dream world do you live in?

      Go to the Gressenhall mosque in London, the Hazoor conducts prayer amid great security, where he has two followers knealing on either side of his stage throne like Pharoahnic guardians, while every Ahmedi home has his photograph plastered on their livingroom wall.

      When one Hazoor dies, it is as if the end of the world has come.

      While the native citizens cannot get on the property ladder, your green card asylum scrounging brothers have populated South West London, and Wandsworth council foots the bill for their housing. They have crafted complex money laundering schemes, whereby they let their relatives in Canada buy their homes, so that the Council pays the rent to their offshore home owners.

      For your notice - Ahmadiyya are not Muslims. The moment a person re-invents Islam, he is no longer following the religion of Allah. He has created his own religion. It is nothing new.

      The Jews went their own way, the Christians and even the Muslims.

      The religion with Allah is the surrender - total, unreserved surrender.

      Perhaps you are not familiar with the Catholic model

      The Head being the Pope, similar to your Hazoor, whom your followers love with devotion which is the reserve of Allah alone.

    • amer786 profile image
      Author

      amer786 2 years ago from Los Angeles

      For your information, Huzoor is Khalifatul Masih Al-Khamis (fifth successor of The Messiah). This is the Khilafat-e-Rashida (the rightly guided Caliphate) that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had made prophecy that will re-institute in the end-times. Khilafat-e-Rashida has existed in Islam before from Hazrat Abu-Bakar (ra) to Hazrat Ali (ra). That is the precept for Khilafat-e-Ahmadiyya, not the Roman Catholic Papacy. The Papacy, however, is also a succession of Hazrat Jesus (pbuh). We love Hazrat Khalifatul Masih (May Allah strengthen his hands) for the sake of Allah only.

      You preach love for Allah yet you violate His authority by declaring yourself who is a Muslim and who is not. Is this also not the reserve of Allah? According to me Ahmadiyya is the True Islam following the true teachings of Islam. I believe it is the Firqa-e-Najia (the heavenly bound group) that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) spoke of.

      I would like to let you know that if you post any more innuendo and irrelevant content like asylum seeking and housing schemes then I will not be approving such posts to be published here.

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 2 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      Let everyone promote peace.

      Say, "I don't know" if you were not there as a fact witness and truly do not know.

      Agree that Jesus is the Christ.

      Follow His teachings whoever or whatever He Is.

    • Yaseen Malik profile image

      Yaseen Malik 2 years ago from London

      @amer

      For your information if you still continue to delude yourself that ghulam mirza is the Messiah, then you are a lost cause.

      Allah does not advocate royal bloodlines; it is you, me and everyone else that He is concerned with; as to which of us are best in conduct and surrender without baggage or hindrance.

      I will not be posting here anymore.

      The Messiah is Jesus son of Mary not glam mirza.

    • amer786 profile image
      Author

      amer786 2 years ago from Los Angeles

      Very well @Yaseen, you are free to believe what you want. I wish you well.

    • Yaseen Malik profile image

      Yaseen Malik 2 years ago from London

      Just to let you know - I have written a hub page about Jesus son of Mary (as you challenged me).

      Be in no doubt that the religion chosen by Allah is Islam (the surrender).

      It has always been the preferred religion ever since Allah created the Universe and ahmaddiya has NOTHING to do with it.

      You choose to be misguided - that is your choice and it's alright by me. But when you spread your false notions and invite others to your mindless following of a false messiah and his progeny, whom you revere with a love which is the reserve of Allah alone, then it is my concern.

      Allah has not sanctioned a holy bloodline, and that is why Allah says clearly in the Qur'an that there are no heirs to Mohammed (pbuh), so that you don't start worship them but people are like lemmings, mindlessly falling into the same trap.

      So Amer786 abandon your allegiance to ahmaddiya and discover Allah's religion of Islam.

    • amer786 profile image
      Author

      amer786 2 years ago from Los Angeles

      You said you will not post any more comments here. There is nothing to add to this conversation. You've given your viewpoint in your Hub. So please refrain in the future, thank you!

    • G Miah profile image

      Gous Ahmed 2 years ago from Muslim Nation

      Everything you believe in is a load of tosh amer786. How can you not accept that your sect is SHIRK and nothing else, even when the rest of the world has voted against it?

      You are deluded and you should try to stop worshipping Gulam Mirza as he was never a prophet or messiah or whatever else you want to call him. Stop worshipping people's graves too. That is open SHIRK.

      May Allah guide you on to the straight path. Ameen.

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 2 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      Nine months ago:

      Please let me know what you think of, "There is a River," by Thomas Sugrue.

      I am checking back. What do you think of the book/Edgar Cayce?

    • amer786 profile image
      Author

      amer786 2 years ago from Los Angeles

      G Miah, I did not join the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam to go with the vote of the world. I am looking for where Allah’s vote is, and the prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh), and the prophets and the Angels (peace be on them). In religion, the majority has always been wrong which is also what the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said . . . that when his ummah becomes terribly divided into 73 sects, 72 will be in the fire and only one will be on the right path. You want to vote with the world, go for it.

      The so-called Muslim world has voted against us but they also voted against the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who said that as long as anyone declares “La Ilaha il Allah” (There is no God but Allah) you cannot ex-communicate them from Islam even if you want to pass a fatwa of kufr. Disobedience to prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is disobedience to Allah and Allah in Quran says He does not guide the “fasiqueen” (disobedient peoples). The reason for this vote is Khatm-e-Nabuwwat (finality of prophethood) and we fully believe in it. The only difference is if the prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) to come is literal, meaning the same Jesus (pbuh) who came 2,000 years ago or it symbolic, meaning another person in the spirit and likeness of Jesus (pbuh).

      You know what completely reveals the fraud and falsehood of this vote? There is a small group of Ahmadi-Muslims (no more than 50,000 in the world) known as The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement or “Lahoris”. In 1912 they left the main movement because they refused to accept that the Messiah and Mahdi would be a prophet of Allah. They too believe literally that prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet in every sense. But the vote also included them as non-Muslims just because they believe that Ghulam Ahmad was the Messiah and Mahdi.

      The world has no authority to override decisions and laws created by Allah. And if it does so, then that could constitute as “Shirk”. No wonder all 72 of them are “in the fire”. Take a look at what is happening around you.

      Not sure where and how you have seen me worshipping Ghulam Ahmad, and worshipping at graves but frankly don’t care.

      May Allah guide you to the path that leads up to the Heavens, and save you from the one that inclines to the world.

    • amer786 profile image
      Author

      amer786 2 years ago from Los Angeles

      Sorry Jay C, haven't gotten around to it yet. Remind me why you wanted me to read it?

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 2 years ago from Houston, TX USA

      Simply put our subconscious minds are linked. This is evidenced by telepathy. See "My Telepathic Experiences." Also see the biography of Edgar Cayce which demonstrates telepathy as well as a higher consciousness. Cayce obtained accurate information from a source outside any living human (the super consciousness/ God? Allah?).

    • profile image

      ASRAFUL ALOM 18 months ago

      mas alla

    • Jay C OBrien profile image

      Jay C OBrien 18 months ago from Houston, TX USA

      From Article: "In verse 22:40 God Almighty explains that He sometimes moves nations against other nations so that His mosques, churches and synagogues can be protected."

      22:40 ... Had not Allah checked one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries.....

      I just read this again. I do not believe Allah uses one person or group to do harm against another person or group. Harming another in the name of religion is Terrorism. We need to put this concept behind us. We are not to harm another person ever; past, present or future.

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