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Universal Salvation--Great Heresy, or Greatest Gift?

Updated on November 19, 2010

For Christians only: No one is going to hell, even if you think they should!

Hey, Christian, what if you found out that no one is going to hell? No one. Not the other religions, not the famous and historic criminals, the warlords, the child murderers, the rapist, the robbers, the greedy, the whores, the queers, no one.

Would that displease you, or would you say “Thank God!”?

Choose wisely how you answer that question. It will determine just how compassionate you actually are. Here’s how it goes:

When God placed the humans into the Garden, he told them not to do something. They did it, anyway, creating a breach in their relationship with the Creator. They were no longer allowed in the presence of God. OK, fine.

Later, God decided that he didn’t like the idea that his highest creation remained separate from him. So, he came to earth in human form in order to close the gap. He took the ‘sin of disobedience,’ which is what stood between him and the humans, to the cross. When he died and rose, the breach was closed, and he no longer was separated from his creatures.

So far, so good, right? Well, here comes the kicker. This is where you may scream ‘heresy.’

God did the work of salvation. No one and nothing else could have done it. Jesus’ death on the cross and subsequent resurrection sealed the deal. The world was forgiven, from the first human to the last. Period. No more breach, no gap of any kind, between the Creator and the Created. It became just as it was before the so-called Fall.

The heresy? No one has to believe it for it to be true. That’s what is meant by Universal Salvation. Jesus did what he did and no one needs to even acknowledge it. If he did it, he did it.

What? I don’t have to believe it in order to get to heaven?

No, you do not.

Salvation is by grace alone. If you play any part in the process, then the responsibility shifts to you. Even the act of choosing to believe is part of the process. And you play no part in the process. No matter what your preachers, priests, or books tell you. If you must believe in order to receive salvation, then the obligation is upon you. And it isn't.

Salvation is from God and by God, and Jesus carried out all the necessary work. There is no gap remaining between you and God. “The Kingdom of God is within you…”

The world is eternally free from the original disobedience, not because anyone believes it, but because it was done on the world’s behalf by a God who would not let the stain continue to keep him separate from his beloved creatures. He knew that if even one soul was lost, his creation would be a failure.

So, there’s the heresy. It’s the same story. The difference is that no one has to believe it.

The world is saved. Period. If it hinges on belief, then it’s not salvation. It’s religion.

Now, how you choose to feel about this can reveal a true picture of how compassionate you actually are. If you really prefer that anyone should end up in hell, then you might want to revisit the words of Jesus: “I have come that they might have life, and…more abundantly.”

The early church instituted the idea of the necessity of belief. The reality is, if any of the salvation story is true, it’s true even if not one single solitary soul believes it. If it’s not true, then so what?

It’s also good to remember that a literal biblical eternal hell is not punishment; it’s revenge.

Let it go, Christian. Everyone is redeemed. And you should be glad.

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      Whikat 7 years ago

      Excellent Hub, If that is not good news, than I do not know what is. Although I no longer call myself a christian. I am very grateful and over-joyed that we are "All" redeemed to wish torture on anyone is wishing torture on yourself.

    • profile image

      Hell N0 7 years ago

      You haven't considered a few things. Why not believe the scriptures which assert every condemnable act committed by humans is part of God's grand plan. This includes Adam's disobediance, idol worship, Satan, all evil, etc. You're right about there being no hell and eternal salvation. But judgment will happen either in this life or the next. Christ's sacrifice was to fulfill the OT laws of sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. All sins have been forgiven. Judgment will take care of the sins of our hearts. Read my hubs for more information and visit bible-truths.com.

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Hell NO: I understand what you're saying. However, consider this: Jean (John) Cauvin (Calvin) preached predestination as the only truth of scripture. Jacobus Arminius argued for free will. Ultimately, Calvin won. He pointed out to Arminius the number of NT references to predestination in contrast to the very small number of refs that seemed to support free will. Even though Arminius was trumped, nonetheless the doctrine of free will became the mainstay in most Evangelical denominations. They are wrong.

      The other item you mention is "Judgment will take care of the sins of our hearts." That sounds very much like karmic retribution. I will check out your hubs and make more comments there.

      Thanks for your insights.

    • profile image

      Hell N0 7 years ago

      I know nothing of Karma. The scriptures speak of judgment though. And remember, it is a sin to even think about committing sin so where does the idea of Karma come in with our thoughts? Karma seems to be a payback doctrine. Judgment is for setting things right. I have also never read a scripture that suggests we have a free will. A free will implies that we make uncaused choices. Choices? Yes. Uncaused. No

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Hell NO: Karma is a Sanskrit word that simply means 'action.' It refers basically to the Law of Cause and Effect. Paul spoke of it many times. He didn't use the word but he did infer the concept. What goes around, comes around. You are not so much judged for your actions, but by them.

      You are right about free will, or the lack of it. If one chooses to believe in free will, then it must follow that God does NOT know what the individual will do before he/she does it. And if choices are not causal, that is, if we do not make choices without their being already known by a creator, then judgment of any kind cannot be exacted against the created. The god who would know in advance everything I will do even before I am created and then allow me to be created anyway, and then judge me for anything, is an unjust god. That god does not exist. Period.

      The only judgment that exists in the universe is the Law of Cause and Effect i.e. karma.

    • TheAllSeeingEye profile image

      TheAllSeeingEye 7 years ago from England.

      Very good hub.

      The law of karma is one of many universal laws as is the law of attraction. Thought creates folks and what is put out shall be received.

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Thanks for the comments.

      It's important to point out that karma is not really a religious concept. It's simply a word to describe the natural ebb and flow of all things.

    • profile image

      Allan Cleghorn 7 years ago

      You are very wrong. It is dangerous of you to challenge the bible teaching that it is essentially a matter of trust in the work of Christ alone.

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 7 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      I appreciate your concern. However, it is also necessary to remember that the Bible of which you speak has been translated and mistranslated, interpreted and misinterpreted so many times over the centuries that to take whatever version you (Allan) are currently choosing to see as "God's Word" is to tread upon shaky ground.

      Here's the real challenge for you. Even if I accept the idea that the original autographs of the Four Gospels, the Letters of Paul, even the Book of Revelation are God's Truth, we do not possess most of those documents. Just copies of copies of copies. And no matter how much credence you give to the power of God, the hand of the human is prone to mistake. And even the misplacement of a comma can change the entire message.

      With that in mind, I will say to you, "Believe as you choose. Trust that whatever version of Scripture you are using is Ultimate Truth." I, however, reject out of hand all versions of the Bible as literal and ultimate truth. With that proclamation, I am now free to take from Scripture what resonates with me and reject the rest. And of all so-called Christian approaches, universal salvation is the only one that resonates, makes sense, and supports a truly powerful, forgiving and love Creator.

      Many Blessings to you on your spiritual journey.

    • Timothy Donnelly profile image

      Timothy Donnelly 6 years ago from Ontario, Canada

      RichardSpeaks, this article of yours was a bit disturbing to me. I must admit, however, that I too questioned the wisdom of the God while witnessing the horrors of this world, from a distance, and personally. Fortunately however, I can now say that I choose not to solve the world's ills, but only those ills which I suffer - along with those ills found within my circle of influence. This way, I don't have to fret over things I find disturbing in the understanding which I possess.

      Please allow me to invite you to read and consider a Wikipedia article on Free Agency, found at

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_(LDS_Church)

      You may then follow the link at the bottom section under REFERENCES; Hales, Robert D., "To Act for Ourselves: The Gift and Blessings of Agency," this is a great short read, full of profound, awakening and non-threatening thought - like "Good News". I believe you may intellectually and spiritually welcome this information, for it helps start to explain Salvation and Predestination in an understandable way, without respect of persons, but with a welcome sensibility.

      Of course, I invite all others to do the same if they are interested.

      Richard, let me say metaphorically that, sometimes people won't eat oranges because it is just too much trouble for them to first peel the fruit. They are then deprived of its nutrition, even though they are unwittingly quite happy about it. Peace and Good Tidings.

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      You're a good witness. Wrong, but a good witness. This line is enough to place the Wikipedia definition into the category of pure myth: Agency (also referred to as free agency or moral agency), in Latter-day Saint theology, is "the privilege of choice which was introduced by God the Eternal Father to all of his spirit children in the premortal state."

      I have studied LDS views fairly closely. And, in my less than humble opinion, the Mormon religion is among the most fantastical belief systems on the planet.

      But, you are entitled to your approach to the spiritual journey. I do have a couple of questions, if you're up for answering them. The Mormons teach that families will ultimately be together forever in the celestial realm. Tell me then, at what age do all family members attain to in that world? Are they all, say, 30? Or 25? Or 40? You can't tell me that when you get to heaven, you will be reunited with an old grandparent. After all, that person doesn't want to spend eternity as an old person, right? And what about your children that die in childhood? Will they always be the age they were when they died? If not, then I would assume the entire family will appear to be all the same age. That's a bit strange, don't you think?

      Remember this, and it's true of any book: All human words are just that--human words. There is no divinity in any so-called scripture.

      I leave you with this last thought. There is an old 13th century idea that applies here. The simplest answer is usually the true one, or, better, let the simplest solution be the right one until proven otherwise. The world appeared flat, until proven otherwise. The Bible and any other holy book must be proven in order to be valid. The simplest answer is that none of them are absolute truth.

      That's a good place to be. Seekers rule.

    • Timothy Donnelly profile image

      Timothy Donnelly 6 years ago from Ontario, Canada

      The simplest doctrine is the most critical, in my opinion. This is what constitutes the cornerstone, upon which all others rest. The higher doctrine is built upon the architecture below it. All must be reconciled to the other, in order - precept upon precept.

      As far as the assumed ages of those who will be in heaven after resurrection and judgement, that is something I do not fret over, and I would not let this thing derail the faith and graduated faith (i.e.: knowledge) I humbly and gratefully treasure as my personal testimony. Sorry I could not answer this question for you.

      Finally, the concept of Free Agency is a blessing which must be recognized and adopted in order to understand our hierarchal place in this life given to us by our Creator (under Him), and in order to help us be victorious in the challenges we all face.

      Peace and Good Tidings, and good results in your seeking!

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      A quick comment on your very erudite presentation: The Bible does not support Free Agency. As John Calvin so readily and correctly pointed out, the Scriptures are rife with direct and indirect references to predestination. No one goes to any heaven without being chosen before the foundation of the earth. The amount of the Elect is a very small number in comparison to the Damned. And no one, through choice or any other process, can change those numbers, set down before the universe was even created. If you need or want scriptural support for these claims, I can provide approx. 120 of them for you. Only about 25 seem to support Free Agency. And Calvin was very successful in reconciling those references with the predestination doctrine. No wonder the Protestant world lived and lives in such fear of Retribution.

      But of course, it's all myth and superstition, thank God!

      Blessings.

    • profile image

      mworley09 6 years ago

      so accourding to you... i can live however i choose and do whatever i like to anyone with no recourse what so ever?

      i can see where your coming from but consider this... i live my life as best i can. loving christ and my fellow man and devoted to my faith. i die and it turns out your right. what have i lost? nothing i led a rewarding life. if theres no reward so what.

      now consider the opposite. i live the my as you believe and seek worldly gain safe in the knowledge that predestination is fact. i die and find out you were wrong...

      i think ill hedge my bets!

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Thanks for your comments.

      I have heard your proposition for many, many years. (I'm not new at this...) Almost everyone who disagrees with this premise uses the "Oh, then that means I can just do anything I want without fear of retribution?" Actually, we pretty much do whatever we want anyway, even with the many, MANY doctrines of salvation out there for us to choose from. Besides, this is not my doctrine. This is the Bible's doctrine as laid out clearly by John Calvin and others. The Free Will folks have never been able to successfully refute Calvin's claims. Their best argument (non-Biblical) is, "How could a loving god create souls already predestined for hell? It makes no sense." They're right. It makes no sense at all. But it is Bible. Period. No getting around it.

      There is another way to view spirituality, though. First, dump three things: deities, devils, and doctrines. Then, start fresh. Ask yourself this question: What is the best possible way for me to live that would benefit not only me but the world? You see, no matter your belief system, we're all in this together, like it or not. You can see how doctrines have brought destruction upon us for centuries. Even today, believers from many different directions are ready to kill those who don't believe as they do.

      The Dalai Lama, when asked, once said. "My religion is kindness." He lives that as much as possible. And he is constantly attacked by other so-called religious types for not "being in Truth."

      The true seeker knows that he/she doesn't know. So, let us all be guided by those words from the Dalai Lama and let compassion be our religion. Ultimately, it is the only thing that will save us.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Hey Richard. No matter how much we tell them that their own actions are their responsibility and even show the verses that state this in thier Bible they still cannot or refuses to see them. The question to them is why can't they read and understand it. That doesn't make sense. I was on another hub and they told me because I go by the cause and effect which Jesus speaks of that I am on the side of the murderes and such. I left the hub. I am not arguing with someone who cannot or refuses to read and only wants to argue for the sake of arguing. I don't think this is what LOVE is all about.

    • profile image

      mworley09 6 years ago

      i can agree with that. live to benefit all is a good start. i have to commend you on being well read and educated. i respectfully disagree, as i believe hell is well documented in scripture, and i believe scripture has been saved for the most part from corruption. i will grant that some translations are fare from accurate but many are very close. some things are lost in translation but the meat is there.

      yes "we are saved by grace" but read on "through faith, and not by works." many take this to mean that works do not matter but i believe its james that says faith without works is dead.

      the gift of salvation was freely given, but just as you can refuse a gift given by man you can refuse a gift given by god. and once accepted must be lived.

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Thanks both for your comments.

      LG: I know what you're saying. Still, we continue to reach out. Why? Because we know that compassion is the true path.

      MW09: I know you mean well. I will, however, point out a couple of fallacies in your comments. First, hell was considered under the earth in Scripture. After seeing volcanoes do their fire-y thing, what were they to suppose, eh? But the Jewish Torah and the rest of the Old Testament are not so set on a literal hell. That's New Testament stuff. If you want, I can send you to a site that will explain the whole thing to you in depth--written by an evangelical Christian. You will be amazed at what he has to say and how he uses the Bible to support his position. You will either give up your belief in a literal hell or will be completely confused. Let me know if you want the site URL.

      Also, you point to what can be considered one of the big contradictions in Scripture. Saved by grace, but works are necessary. There have been many struggles and strains to reconcile these points but no one has ever done it to my satisfaction. It remains a contradiction.

      One final point to consider: People aren't going to hell because they're bad. We're all sinful creatures, to be sure. But that isn't what sends people to hell, according to the Bible. It's unbelief. Not rebellion, not disobedience. Simply believing something different will get you burned. You can be the best person, the most compassionate person, the kindest Muslim, the most self-sacrificing Hindu, the loving Buddhist. You will still be bound for hell if you don't believe a certain Christian way. But, and it's a big BUT... Which of the Christian ways is the Right Way? Catholic, Pentecostal? Mormon, JW, Southern Baptist? Amish? Seventh Day Adventist? Lutheran? Apostolic? (There are more than 10,000 different denominations, sects, and cults that each see it their own way.)

      They all think the others are wrong. What a mess.

      Sorry. Your point is blurred.

      Many blessings to you in your journey.

      Note: My next HubPages article is simply going to place contradictory scriptures side by side and let the reader be the judge. This should open an interesting dialogue, eh??

    • profile image

      mworley09 6 years ago

      yes that will be interesting :) i see your point about all the denominations and in fact i am working on a hub about that now. it will be up soon ( a day or two as im not the greatest writer) and ill send you a link if you wish when its up. the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the differences are very small and in many cases such as between evangelicals and catholics its a lot of misunderstanding and lack of knowledge. (what my hub will try to clear up) i would enjoy seeing your response to it.

      yes please do give me the url. while i may not agree with you i do enjoy the discussion, and hope you do as well.

      also i have plains to post a hub on salvation soon and would welcome you comments there as i think a diversity of opinion leads to questions by others and ultimately starts many on the search for truth.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Funny how I too am going to be publishing a hub in a few days time about religion and God and all that is. I have been working on it all day. I have things to do this weekend and will nto be able to get back to it until next week. I would like that URL too Richard, if you don't mind. I also can't wait to see that hub with the contradicting scriptures.

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Thanks you!

    • profile image

      mworley09 6 years ago

      thanks

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      I just fund this and I would like to share it with all of you:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9X5f4TmDNE

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Here is the full movie and a lot of things are made clear: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4971323165...

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      I found the video interesting. Not everyone will like it. It flies in the face of tradition and the "outside and distinct god" hypothesis.

      As interesting as the video was, it's important to always remember that info coming through the human brain is always tainted a bit. Even this post. So, don't take it all too seriously.

      If Spirit is anything, it's fun.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Oh you will like my hub that is coming out soon then. Remember Jesus also says in the Bible that we shouldn' go by tradition.....wonder why he said that and why Christians who profess they go by traditions when it is not what right... Just something for those who spout scripture and traditions of their religions to ponder on awhile.

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      He also told us to refrain from looking anywhere else for "the kingdom" for it is within us. But the Buddha said that as well, 400 years earlier. In fact, if you put much of the sayings of Jesus up next to the sayings of the Buddha, you will find many similarities. Think Jesus was Buddhist? Hmmmm.....

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      He trained in India and they knew him as St. Issa. The book is out on the internet somewhere. Jesus was NOT the only *Ascended Master*. There were many before him and there are many after him, BUT those stories are not allowed out because of what the Early Church Fathers deemed as the Bible was the end of God's talking to the people. It's is so contradictory in that though because the bible says one thingd and the church says and does the opposite---BUT the Christians swear they are going by what Christ says in that bible yet they don't even know what he says.

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Yes, I am well aware of the various books that claim Jesus trained in India. And, at the risk of once more sounding like a heretic, I think there may be some validity to the claims. No one knows where Jesus was or what he was doing from the age of 12 to the beginning of his ministry at age 30. And, again, he sounded much more Buddhist than Jewish. Oh, and he definitely wasn't Christian. That's Paul's creation. And Jesus was not anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-other religions. Paul was. Jesus was inward, Paul was outward. Jesus was less in favor of institutions, Paul deliberately created one.

      Thanks for the reminder. The word Christ means anointed; the word Buddha means awakened. I would say they are pretty close, wouldn't you?

      Blessings...

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Yes they are. It is said that Paul and Jesus did not get along at all and yet you find more stories in the Bible that Paul wrote and not what Jesus wrote. I find that intersting because after studying Paul and the contrasts he had with Jesus and what he was before he converted (that is iffy too in my view), Paul seems to be setting the Jews up. He worked for the Romans and they didn't like ANYONE paying any attention to someone other than their rulers. His job was to get as many as he could to be killed. Ya think he would change overnight just like that? I don't think so. Tjhe church idolizes Paul and then backstabs Jesus. Don't you find that strange behavior?

      Hey I finally finished that hub: http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Office-And-Its-Many-De...

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Paul was a "yes" man. He did his best to ease the Roman authorities' charges of sedition. He told his followers that disobeying the rulers was the same as disobeying God. That's how we got the so-called Divine Right of Kings, a policy that created misery for centuries. Too bad, though. In the end, they even killed him.

      Paul was a contemporary of Jesus. And since I do not believe Jesus rose physically from the dead, but rather, was rescued, Paul more than likely saw the live Jesus on the road to Damascus, not a spirit. But that, I suppose, is heresy. So be it.

      Jesus is not the god of the world. He was a man like any other. But he had a powerful message, a message that has been with us since the beginning of civilization: Love each other; help each other. Do to each other as you want done to yourself. The Buddha said it, Krishna said it, Lao Tzu said it, even Egyptian hieroglyphs have been found that say it. Consciousness demands it. The Creator has given us the ability to put it into practice...or not. It's our call. That's why I write. To stir thinking. Not to convert or claim Ultimate Truth.

      As you think in your heart, so are you.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      I am right there with ya.

    • r-o-y profile image

      r-o-y 6 years ago

      I think I better take Jesus word instead. Jesus never taught universal salvation' he said the road to is norrow, and few find it. but the road to destrution is croweded.And dont fear them that can only kill the body, but fear can destory both bodt and soul in hell.That don't sound like universal salvation to me.

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      r-o-y: It also doesn't sound like Jesus. Those were words put into his mouth by other people. Also, remember that Jesus was not a Christian. He wasn't speaking from a Christian perspective. He was Jewish and paid allegiance to the God of the Jews, the wrathful, fire-breathing dictator of the Old Testament. You bet that God is scary!

      Thank goodness, that god doesn't exist.

    • r-o-y profile image

      r-o-y 6 years ago

      I have been trying to understand your reasoning, but it just doesn't make sense, even in this fallen world we try to separate the evil criminal from the people who are trying to live decent lives. That why we have jails for child rapist, jail for murderers who kill inocent people ...etc. do you realize what this world would be like in no one had to give an account for their actions? Just as there are physical jails for physical man, when he do wrong, there is a spiritual penatentuary to jail the spirit of the evil doer, that jail is called "HELL" .

      We need the coult houses, the judges, and the jails, in this life and the next.

      "WE ALL MUST GIVE AN ACCOUNT FOR WHAT WE DID WHILE IN THE BODY!"

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Why is it, when one suggests that there is no hell, it automatically means there is no justice and that everyone gets away with everything? And why does punishment have to last for eternity? No one in the history of the world has ever done anything that deserves eternal punishment. That isn't justice. It's revenge. And why would an all powerful creator create a creation that could fall? Free will? Nonsense. All is predestined. Any fall was created deliberately. It's all God's will. We have nothing to do with the final outcome, no matter what we say we believe. (Now, how does THAT sound? That's a doctrine taught by many Christians. Why are they wrong and you're right? Hmmmm....)

      Also, it seems strange that you compare the human system of laws to the Creator of the universe. The laws of the universe are fixed. We are all subject to the same universal laws. "God makes the rain to fall on the just and unjust alike."

      One last thing. The world is not fallen. Except, of course, in the minds of those who believe it is. But that doesn't make it so. The Bible is not Ultimate Truth. It is a man made book. And it has been changed many times.

      Besides, "We must all give an account..." sounds like karma to me. Do you believe in karma? Now that's real justice. What goes around, comes around.

    • r-o-y profile image

      r-o-y 6 years ago

      First of all i never said that hell is eternal, neighter one of us knows for sure one way or the other. Some things will remain a mystery until we reach the other side even then we still not know everything because we'll still be finite beings. As far as why would a creator create a would that could fail? Jehovah is love, love desires to be loved so he created beings that He could show love toward, and have them love Him in return. the creature had to have the chice of loving his creator, or not loving Him. and to do that he had to have free will. God could have created men and angels to have no chice but to love him. but would that have been true love? No that would have been robotic, true love is not forced. the creature must have free will. Whith that free will he free to love, love, [Jehovah] and help beautify this beautiful home He has prepared for us, or use that free will to hate and destroy his creation and slander His name, and leaders others to destruction. they have to be free to love or hate. That the only way to see if one truly loves the lover [Jehovah].

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      True love never requires love in return. It never requires sacrifice. It never requires blood. It never requires anything. It does not boast; it does not brag. It is never angry nor loud nor rude. It also never requires worship. And it especially never requires acknowledgment. Whatever there is to be given, it has already given it. Our job is not to love the Creator. It is to love the Created. As Socrates or Aristotle once said, paraphrased, if you can't even love one another, how can you claim to love any god??

      Therein lies the rub. In as much as you do it (love, or compassion) unto each creature, you do it unto the Creator.

      Next time you swat a fly or squash a bud or smash a spider, or hold a grudge of any kind against your fellow creatures, ask yourself this question: Is this act of love or an act of fear? Your whole spiritual journey rests on the answer to that question every day.

      None of us has got it down completely. We're all in the same boat. A little more compassion can turn the tide. With me?

    • r-o-y profile image

      r-o-y 6 years ago

      who is your God? What's his or her name?

    • rdhowell profile image

      rdhowell 6 years ago from North America

      Hi Richard,

      (Is that your name?) You are mounting an admirable defense. As someone once told me, I will offer to you: Your thoughts are MUCH too rational for most folks around here to handle. But I'm sure you know that by now.

    • r-o-y profile image

      r-o-y 6 years ago

      Now let's see if I got you righ. Did you not say our job is not to love the creator, but the creature? How could you not love some one in return who have shown you so much love? What king of relationship is that? Sounds king of twisted to me. One that called you into being, and have given you everthing you got. Jesus said the first cammandment is to love the LORD your God with with all your heart and might,that seem like something any reasonable person would want to do. And the second is like unto the first, to love your neighbor as yourself. But its impossible for you to fulfill the second if you don't fulfil the first which is your reasonable duty. That just shows a loveless person.If you don't love the one that gave you life, how can you possibly love anyone or anything lese? you can't. Its like saying I must love my friend, and the trees, the lakes, but not the one that mdae all this possible. Its like I must love my friends but not my mother who carried me inside her womb for 9 mounths,and loved me,even when I was only a clog of blood. See why I'M having such a hard time following your line of reasoning. it just doesn't make sense.

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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      First to RDHowell: I appreciate the sentiment. I have been writing this way for many years. I believe in a rational as well as loving universe. And I have had my detractors. But on I go!

      To r-o-y: I understand your frustration. And I do see why you're having a bit of trouble following my train of thought. Let's try this again.

      According to the Old Testament, you must never pronounce the name of God. That's what the commandment about not taking the name of the lord in vain means. It's not about saying "goddamit." So, with that in mind, it's important to drop the idea that the god has a name. Unless, of course, you believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only god, the creator of the universe, which I do not believe. If that's what you believe, then we can go no further.

      But just by the outside chance you don't believe that, then I will say this: There is only one power and presence. It is not only in the universe; it is the universe. Nothing is separate from this Source of All. Consequently, nothing can be destroyed. It would be like destroying part of oneself.

      Since the universe is One, my job, if I choose to take it, is to learn, to grow, and to practice compassion for all creatures. When I really get that, it is no longer a job or duty. It is a pleasure. Becoming my best and serving the world is all that is required of me. No penance, no cry for salvation, no fear of damnation.

      The Power and Presence that created this universe, this world, dwells in all things. It has no name. But I have a personal relationship with that Source. And because of its presence within me, I am free to have compassion for the world.

      Anything else (to me) is just religion. No, thanks.

    • r-o-y profile image

      r-o-y 6 years ago

      THEN WE CAN GO NO FARTHER! YOU KNEW YOU COULDN'T WIN THAT ONE! GOOD COPE OUT!

      "JESUS IS LORD!"

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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Blessings to you on your journey.

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      John Harper 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      I have to admit that I like this heresy, and for me the jury is still out, I spend a couple of years in very intense bible study when I first came to Christ, and the fact that God desires ALL to be saved was a compelling reason to follow and explore what you call universal salvation, a phrase which I dislike as it has very negative connotations when discussing this with other believers.

      My argument for is that Christ Himself was treated as a heretic, as was Luther and in fact most other spirit filled believers, so being labelled a heretic is not always correct!

      There is a good book called 'The Torch of the Testimony' which explains how the faith of Christ has been hijacked by Churchianity down the centuries, yet God has always maintained a remnant to carry the torch forward, normally at the cost of their own lives.

      On the other hand, the fact that Judas was described as having been 'better he had never lived' causes the problem that WHAT would constitute being worse than annihilation?

      Interesting hub, I'll follow you and see where we travel to.

      John

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      Disappearinghead 6 years ago from Wales, UK

      I do have sympathy with the concept of universal salvation and nothing would thrill me more if it could be absolutley proven.

      There is much scripture that one can read and conclude by interpretation that universal salvation is a done deal. For example the fact that Jesus asked His Father to forgive them as He hung on the cross. I believe He was refering to the whole of mankind here, past, present and future. Because the Father hears Him, that forgiveness was made, mission accomplished. So the argument then goes, how can people be punished for all eternity for their sin, when the debt of sin is paid?

      Eternal punishment contradicts Jesus command to love our enemies and do good to them.

      We also have the arguments that the words we have translated from Greek as eternal or eternity, aionios, cannot actually mean eternal because aionios is an adjective which ascribes the property of aion, the noun, to something else. As aion is age, by definition a period of finite time of indeterminant length, eternal punishment linguisitically is not correct.

      However, we cannot escape what Jesus said about dividing sheep from goats, and the "many will cry to me Lord....and I'll say depart from me I never knew you...". Hosea also said that come the resurection, some will rise to everlasting glory and others to everlasting shame.

      But eternal deliberate torture in a literal lake of fire? No, that makes no sense at all and contradicts everything we know about God. Considering also that Revelation is symbolic from the very first verse, how can anyone say, symbolic, symbolic, symbolic, all the way through, then at the very end insist, "oh the Lake of Fire, that's literal."?

      Anyway, that's my two pennorth. Thanks for the hub. I'm suprised you haven't received a lot more vitreol from churchianity.

      P.S As for free will. You have chosen not to believe the concept of eternal hell. Are you not therefore exercising free will?

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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Thanks for the comments, Aquasilver and Disappearingheads.

      I actually don't accept anything in my own article. I do not believe the world ever needed deliverance from Original Sin. I do not believe in a literal devil. I do not believe the Bible is the Inerrant Word of God.

      I wrote the article to point out the silliness of eternal damnation. A Power and Source that could bring this universe into existence and evolve life within it is way beyond any doctrine or religion or spiritual path. Without conscious life, the universe has no meaning. We (and all intelligent life in the Cosmos) give this world and the universe its meaning. You and I cannot know any meaning apart from what we give to anything. Even mathematics, as precise as that can be, does not give meaning, only understanding. And then we interpret it all.

      Yeah, that's the kind of Creator I can get behind. Not the mean spirited gods of the tribal religions. Might as well still believe in Apollo or Horus. Their stories are much the same as that of Christ. Oh, and much older.

      If there is Source, it is One. And all is ultimately well. It must have needed us for some reason. It may well be experiencing Itself through us. We could well be the very expression of the Spirit. We might even be more powerful than we give ourselves credit for. Hmmm.... God expressions. Power centers. Conscious co-creators.

      Such grand possibilities, eh???

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      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Their circular logic is that if you don't believe in Satand and Hell and all those nasty things then you must be of those nasty thig. At least that has been my experience here with them. LOVE cannot be and so there is no need to be self responsible when there are other things that you can blame you very actions on. Now THAT is a cop out! Let's wait for God to fix everything---so what are we doing while we wait hmmm. Oh NO then it is Satan that is destroying everything....NOT! That's as silly as saying The Devil Made M Do it.

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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Good points. I find it interesting that Christianity says you cannot go to heaven unless you believe in both Christ AND Satan. If you only believe in Jesus, you are as condemned as if you didn't believe in him. It's a package deal. No devil? No Christ. You must take them together, joined at the hip.

      I do not believe in the devil or hell. Therefore I am condemned to join them? Such nonsense. I would be more apt to believe in Harry Potter's World!

      The devil is a concept turned into a literal figure. Grow up, Christian. The devil is dead. You are free (and so are the rest of us). Live with it. We love you in spite of yourself!

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      To hell with eternal torment 6 years ago

      Excellent hub! I am so glad I found this amidst "Carrie Bradshaw" and friends' hubs, where all they do is condemn anyone who doesn't believe exactly as they do to an eternal fiery inferno, while they are the special chosen ones. I will bookmark this!

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      Kenneth Kipkoech Cheruiyot 6 years ago from Kericho

      It's absurd that for many church folks you have to believe in eternal hell which is a hoax,go to certain physical buildings either on saturday or sunday for worship and try to look and act holy in order to be saved.

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Most Christians don't even know what their own religion actually teaches so when I'm criticized by readers who disagree with my points of view, I usually find that they have no real clue and are simply mouthing points of opinion and theology shoved down their throats by some frightened or power-hungry minister, priest, or other 'deliverer of the Truth.' I know very little; it's still more than most believers know of their own faiths.

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      Rare Jewel 6 years ago

      Amen Richard. I just joined this site a few minutes ago and I am glad to see other Universal Salvation believers. Amen...

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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Rare Jewel: Many thanks. You are indeed a rare jewel. And welcome to HubPages.

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      Rare Jewel 6 years ago

      Thanks Richard for the welcome and compliment. I love your page.

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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      You'll do well here, Rare Jewel. Just prepare yourself for the fearful who will not like your (our) take on this subject of Universal Salvation. Oh, well. Part of the game, eh??

    • Trinidad49 profile image

      Kenneth Kipkoech Cheruiyot 6 years ago from Kericho

      Hi.richard yah i know for sure you make a lot of sense in these writings than most people can handle,they'll rather live with the traditions and lies of their forefathers e.g the inerrant word of God which is purpotedly the bible,the name of the creator is jehovah etc,etc.I for one don't believe that there is a single name we can pin to the sustainer of all,the christians will say JEHOVAH is the true God-that is his real name,but the fact is we don't know coz it does not exist.but that doesn't mean he does not exist,but that he/she is too great to go to the lengths of petty factors of religion of ascribing a name to the great sustainer and creator.

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Trinidad49: You are a thinker. That's a good thing. Blessings.

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      moz 6 years ago

      Any one who does not believe stands condemned because they do not believe John 3:16

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 6 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Moz: And therein lies the rub. It's not because of what we do, it's because of what we believe. And we must believe a certain way. That's not God; that's Church. You have, it appears, fallen for the centuries old trick of being told what you must believe...or else. I hope you find your way free. Blessings.

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      tomana 4 years ago

      You said, " The world appeared flat, until proven otherwise."

      That's true. The Torah (the Old Testament portion of the modern day holy bible which, BTW, was PROVEN accurate by the recently discovered Dead Sea Scrolls) proved the earth was a circle, at about 700 BC ...

      Book of Isaiah chapter 40 verse 22 ... It is he [God] that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth

      the world appears flat to all of us who are standing on the ground. But many people back then lived in ignorance of what the bible said and they did not have the technology we have today to tell them otherwise. During that time period, the public did not have holy bibles for themselves so only the priests could read scripture and then to make matters worse, they would give the sermons in Latin, which most English speaking people didn't understand but then, that was why they did it.

      You mentioned the Mormon church being false. That's true. They use the holy bible PLUS the Book of Mormon. The holy bible says God shares His glory with no man, especially some guy whose book is called The Book of Mormon, a book that God never inspired.

      It was started by Joseph Smith, a "still on police record" soothsayer [witchcraft], prankster and conman. Joe claimed an angel of God gave him gold plates with wisdom from God on them but he buried them and when he eventually went back to show them to someone, they had disappeared (come on, who would bury them in the ground? Did Moses bury the stone tablets God gave him? I'd be showing them to everyone I could show them too - wouldn't you? Why is common sense called 'common' when so few seem to have it?).

      I believe Joe made up the name of the angel; the name he chose was Moroni ... as in Moron - " i ". Same as with the word 'Mormon' where he simply added an "m". Similar thing happened regarding the Coca-Cola Santa (created circa 1950's) ... move the "n" to the end of the word and it spells "Satan" ... Ho Ho Ho, Merry Christmas !!! And remember, according to the companies advertisement some decades ago ... "Coke Adds Life" (because it had cocaine in it [aka the green bottles to keep the coke from turning sour], and coke doesn't add life - it steals it away).

      But I digress ...

      Consider what the following words are saying. It''s the first verse of a song called Amazing Grace written by John Newton:

      Amazing grace, how sweet the sound

      That saved a wrench like me

      I once was lost, but now I'm found

      Was blind, but now I see

      Saved a wrench like him? Wrench means 'wretched'. What does being wretched mean?

      Lost where, and found by whom?

      He was blind. What was he blind too and what does he now see?

      God is not the One who is lost, we are, if we do not know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 4 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Tomana: Same old argument, same old delusion. Reread the article. Your belief or my disbelief make no difference. If salvation is real, it is real for all, in spite of belief. You should be glad. No one you know is in, or going to, hell. Peace to you and yours. And thanks for the thoughtful comments.

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 4 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      Just a reminder to all who stop by here... The fact that someone chooses to cling to the idea that the Source of All That Is actually allows a portion of Itself, in the form of humanity, to be separated in some kind of eternal damnation flies in the face of everything rational, everything spiritual, everything compassionate. The Muslim who truly believes--bound for hell. The Hindu who is true to his faith--bound for hell. A Buddhist who seeks inner peace--bound for hell. That is, if you believe the ramblings of the hellfire and damnation crowd. It's not about doing bad things; it's about believing the 'wrong' way. Sure, you can believe that if you wish. But you don't have to. You can choose to look in a new direction, the direction that leads to a safe, perfect, and whole universe. And no matter the Source, we are all part of It and safe on into eternity. Even the atheist, the agnostic, and the Jew. All is well in the universe. Now, on with compassion. That's what the world REALLY needs...

    • SwordofManticorE profile image

      SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

      Great hub, and I have to admit that my experiences with determined hell believers are disturbing. Btw, I made a hub simular to this one asking Christians how they would feel about God if God saved all.

    • RichardSpeaks profile image
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      Richard Kent Matthews 4 years ago from Portland, OR Metro Area

      I find it interesting, SwordofManticorE, that many Christian diehard believers in hell do not like the idea that certain folks won't end up there. They do not want an empty hell; it must be populated with all those people who didn't believe the Right Way. Or heaven is disappointing. St. Thomas Aquinas once quipped that one of the joys of heaven is being able to peer over the edge of The Abyss and watch the sinners writhing in torment. What a heart! Go figure. Thanks for your comments.

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