religions and science
Religions and Science
Irrelevant discussions
One often sees people loosing tempers etc and lost in heated discussions on science or rationalism verses religion. I have seen both types of people, those who consider themselves public leaders or defenders on religious aspects or those who try to defend scientific aspects, often adopting irrational or irreligious style to score a point.
I wonder what do they feel they have gained. To me it seems happiness and true knowledge lies some where else.
Darwinism verses creationist in USA-- opposite direction duels in India
I am quite surprised at amount of time and efforts lost in USA in a useless game being played between defenders of Darwin's theory of evolution and christian creationist philosophy. Each side trying to intrude in affairs of others. As usual defenders of religious thoughts hesitate much less in trying to win a point by political bulldozing or creating mass sentiments. In India also often similar game is played. Though not to such an irrational extreme as you see in USA. Game in India many times is in the other direction. Many religious leaders want to claim that current science is a part of their ancient studies and defenders of science want to claim that old Indian thoughts had nothing to do with their studies. Again time lost in such discussions is enormous and final results are as useless and aimless as one can think about.
I wrote the following comments in a discussion in hubpages where initiator had asked a question. Whether studies in ancient times by monks of one of the religions in India included "modern science". I hope you will also enjoy my comments and share your views here.
Comment
First, to join adjective "modern" to science! I am not sure how far it is right.
Modern style of Science
Perhaps what you mean is modern style of science. Modern style of
science is basically devoted to analytical and experimental
deductions. Today's scientists try analytically, using logic (Sanskrit
word is "Tark") as a tool, to deduct statements from axioms formed
mainly by observations from experiments.
These deductions are then used by them to predict, what might happen in
certain situations. Main focus today is on using these deductions to
create technological and economical tools for better physical living. This second
aspect, technological or economical style focused on better physical living can
perhaps be associated with word "modern". But science, if you consider
it as an analytical understanding, is as old as any body can think of.
Surely as India is one of the place where human beings have lived much
longer, people there have excelled very often in these activities.
Indian rishis monks and tirthankars practiced as much science as
spiritualism ( I do not know equivalent word in English to describe
"rishi" - closest one I can think about is a hermit who is dedicated to
development of science or knowledge, self-spiritual aspects and welfare of people. Jain
tirthankars are very few and in this sense they are much more special
and respectful. Practically all in India worship them, again
irrespective of whether they belong to Hindu, Jain or Buddhist
religion, Buddha as a monk is indeed unique and is adored by the followers of most religions in India, practically as a god). For all ancient rishis, monks or tirthankars,
irrespective of whether they were Hindus, Jains or Buddhists, science and spiritualism were not separate aspects . All of them
contributed a lot to scientific as well as spiritual development.
Once you decide that science is eternal in this sense, I think any discussion on "whether people had knowledge in ancient time of what today people discuss" becomes a bit irrelevant. In each era focus has changed to life style of that era. Some of this focus may have been on common aspects, some may not be. Quite a lot of people, in each era, may have known a lot, which we do not even know or focus on, today.
Just a drop in ocean of knowledge
Indian ancient saying "What ever you know any time is just a drop in the
ocean of knowledge" is indeed one of the best thoughts, which has come
out of that country and has been followed there by practitioners of
practically all religions. It helps you to keep yourself away from
proud (Sanskrit word "garur" is perhaps more appropriate). You are
always thirsty for knowing more, trying to do better in science or going
still closure to Brahma (unique true knowledge) or Moksha in spiritual
aspects.
At the same time, it inspires you to have strongly another
characteristic quite visible in thinking and style in India (again in
all religions and in all ages) "to be nispriha" (to have a detachment).
Socrates or Einstein were also rishis
These qualities are visible not just among wise people in India but
also quite visible among people in other countries too like Socrates
(Greek philosopher) or among very recent scientists like Einstein.
Indeed their styles were quite a bit similar to that of rishis in India.
Getting rid of "Garur"
Once you decide to mold yourself towards these qualities, all the proud
("garur") about sentiments like "this is special in my religion or in
my country" goes away automatically. People in India have always
considered science, knowledge or spiritualism to be shared with all,
rather than feeling proud about. Generally average Indian will want to
feel happy about breaking mysteries of science or spiritualism and will
like to share this enjoyment {"Ananda"} with others near him or her.
Sarva Dharm Saman Bhav (Equal glance on all religions)
This is how Indians had moved in since ancient times to another important aspect in their
style of science and philosophy "sarva dharm saman bhav" (to have equal
glance on all religions and spiritual philosophies).
For Indians, science, religion or spiritualism were never separate
compartments. They always looked at all of them together. All of them
had only one aim to help one to get true knowledge, "nirvana" or "moksha".
Average Indian practically never had in any era adopted to a style in
which you get lost in criticizing other religions or philosophies. This
is quite a bit true even today also in average Indian's life. They
always consider different religions and philosophies as parallel
thoughts and let any individual decide what is most suitable for him
or her to achieve true knowledge, brahma or to get moksha.
Chistianity - practiced continuously in India since St. Thomas came there in 1st century AD
Indeed this is also one of the reasons that even religions, which did
not originate in India have had continuous streams of people, who
adopted to them. India must be among very few countries where
Christianity has been continuously practiced by many, since first
century AD when St. Thomas came to India.
Criticism moves you away from the path of knowledge
Criticism of thoughts or style of others was always looked down in
Indian style, simply because it distracts you from actual path of
knowledge (or science in today's terms-- good scientists today are also
not far from this path of keeping one away from useless criticism, just as good spiritual leaders are).
Today's style of professional science and technology has several limitations too. For example one generally does not study in
this style those aspects of knowledge which can not be repeated in front
of others. Experimental reproduction of what you preach is an important
aspect of science today.
Indian ancient studies in all religions, Hindu, Jain or Buddhist had
no such restrictions. Studies of scholars and spiritual leaders then
were not just restricted to one style. They studied in almost any style
and on any action, thought or object. No wonder they could go into
depths, in several secrets of living and nonliving being as well as
human knowledge and spiritual aspects.
Just to associate, what was preached by Rishis or Tirthankars or monks
in ancient times in India with today's style of science, specially trying to win a point
by saying that "Oh! they knew this aspect of today's Knowledge" is
indeed doing injustice to them and belittling them.
(pictures of temples taken from Images available on internet)
Comments
Hi, as usual a wonderful hub , thank you.
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Thanks a lot wordsword!
Thank you soumyasrajan. I wish to understand more of the distinction. But, I am more inclined to my faith. Great hubs! More power.
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Thank you Teresa! I agree with you. Why should one think of changing a faith when all of them lead to the same goal. More than faith perhaps it is spiritualism which has a common theme.
The thing in religious discussion, and really politics and science can be lumped into this as well, is that when both sides think they are absolutely correct in their thinking or their ideology, that the only explanation is the one that they generally hold to be true IS the only truth, there really can be no real debate. And so, two sides simply go to battle to try and convince the other why they are right and why the other is wrong. The end result is two people angry, but both clearly still unable to see the possibility that their own theories may, in fact, be wrong, or that there are answers beyond EITHER sides arguments.
I tend to try and keep an open mind about this very topic. Do I believe in God? The answer is I don't know. Do I think it's possible that God may exist? Absolutely. I have no proof of the existence of God, but I must also concede that I have equally no proof of the ABSENSE of God. It's an unanswerable question, really, the way I see it. So for me, I seek. I'll listen. I'll put together my own idea about it all. But I'll readily concede that whatever conclusion I draw is an opinion, not a fact, and may very well be incorrect.
Great hub.
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Hi! Springboard
Thanks for your visit. I like your clarity of expression. I also like the fact that you think just like me.
But I also think a little bit of this idea that you have to believe in god is culturally quite a bit western and mideastern. Religions which originated in middle east have it, sort of inbuilt in it -a book and a god and one has to agree that it is right.
I think fortunately Christianity overcame it a little bit during Renaissance period etc.
In countries like India (also perhaps in china, japan etc. ) religion was never unifocal like this. One thinks about them as parallel thoughts and you take from them what ever is suitable for your understanding.
Rituals of religion are for enjoyment and fun, while philosophy is more for trying to understand your self. To some extent is it not true with all religions. I think in Hinduism there is nothing like god -- what the equivalent word "Brahma" essentially means is whole universe encompassing every thing including to be and not to be. There is no such thing as you have to believe in it. You just try to understand this whole universe by logic, rituals or by being one with it. You are also free to not to accept it.
Even more than 2000 years back people (Charvak rishi was one such philosopher) who argued that there is nothing like god etc. -- were called rishi because they propagated new philosophies.
I agree with you about current style of Science etc. Way Scientists some times are aggressive - about what they think is rational thought -- I feel they are just like religious phonetics who cause nothing but unhappiness and show no respect to any body accept their own lot. But I feel any way this behavior is neither scientific nor religious
Your ideals are the best! =D
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Thanks Bryan for the visit and so strong compliment. You must be equally good.
I think one of the most interesting aspects of religion is it's diversity of thought and diversity of answer, yet seems to still hold a common thread that sides on the side of goodness.
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Thanks Springboard for the visit.
Yes I agree completely. Still religion has been used as a tool to inspiring massive killings all over world and this phenomena continues. Problem is not so much with religion, it is with people, who can be manipulated easily by those bent on violence,killing or their own brutal or corrupt aims, using religion as a tool.
It quite a bit depends on the person. He can see religion as a tool to provide internal peace, security, inspiration to do a lot more work with much more efficiency in his daily life or he can see religion as providing insecurity (One should kill people of other religions, they will pollute us -type), misery (I did not do my ritual -god will punish me), sadness etc.
That is one reason I like your analysis and drive to keep an open mind still see enjoyment in it. Does it matter whether it is religion or science or none of these as along as you enjoy and have motive only to provide enjoyment and peace to you and your friends etc.?
Thanks for you interesting article and the commentary.
I believe is God is responsible for all rules we find in all areas of science, math and nature.
He is the one who is responsible for the number 2 being the square root of the number 4 and has also set the speed of light.
He has also set the rules in the spiritual realm.
Most of us, both in the East and West can agree on this.
However, history has told us that the Western religious intuitions in the have controlled religious “truths” quite ruthlessly. They term created the term heresy. Many were burnt to the stakes. Emerging scientific evidence put undue pressures on scientists like Galileo, Newton, Copernicus Darwin and others.
Even today the voices from the pulpit threaten eternal damnation to those who believe any scientific findings inconsistent to religion. Many in US, are conditioned to have a religious bias even when there is overwhelming evidence that do not support certain religious point of views.
As science uncovers more truths, which apparently disagrees with Western religion, many have taken their kids from school to teach them at home. Now there is intense pressure from these groups to alter what science can teach these kids. Science textbook are now not under the authority of scientists but by politicians with ties to their religious base.
I am trying to explain why there is such a schizophrenic behavior within the Western community.
You pointed out quite clearly in older religious traditional like Hinduism or Buddhism there is a more coherent view that all truths are linked and comes from a common source. Incidentally I came to know that it was a Hindu monk to first stated the speed of light accurately long ago. However, Western scientists have dismissed this as a lucky guess. Therefore the East see no need to be aggressive, but search for these missing links between science and spirituality.
I feel that all absolute truths from science, religion and other sources leads to our supreme creator.
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Hi! Thesource
Thanks for your comments. I quite agree with you. I think one strength in India has been freedom to put one's thoughts and philosophies and get respect from people whose ideas are quite contradictory to yours. It has been taken in India just as a part of life and most people irrespective of religion they follow accept it as a culture (there are occasionally riots violence between groups etc. but most of it is because of inefficient management of law and order and feudal style in some decision making).
Even thousands of years back
Charvak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C4%81rv%C4%81ka) who denied all dogmas associated with religions etc. and denied even existence of god etc. was respected and called a rishi by Hindus. Still his thoughts and ideas and those developed by his school of philosophers are taken quite seriously and studied with respect just like any other idea. It is considered quite natural that path of analyzing these thoughts also may lead you to truth and understanding of universe (essentially what you call god).
Like if I think of myself -- professionally I am Scientist and I enjoy analytical thinking and devotion to experimental evidences as well as desire to invent new thing to make average life better there. I equally enjoy all the complications, sounds, peace and universality of every thing in a Hindu temple (I visit only occasionally, I am a Hindu by birth and there is no compulsion in Hinduism to visit temples you may not visit even all your life ) or a Jain temple, a Buddhist pagoda or Sikh Gurudwara. I enjoy equally and learn similar aspects, while visiting a Christian church following a very different style or visiting a Mazar of a Muslim saint. I do not see very big difference between ideas in all these places and Science institutions. I feel the same peacefulness and light of desire for truth, compassion etc. in all these places.
So does my wife. My children (who are just now in USA) also feel the same. I think most Indians also do the same.
But West also has contributed a lot to some of these ideas. It is true that there was and still is a lot of control in West on abstract philosophcal thoughts. Some idea that a book written more that 2000 years back or what was said at that time should govern all aspects of your life has affected people following religions which originated in middle east specially Christians and Muslims quite a bit and perhaps not so positively. Even it is not clear what was originally said (see http://hubpages.com/hub/avoiceinthewilderness ).
But during renaissance period I feel Christians overcame this quite a bit. I think this is a great contribution of West. One can see the result and positive developments in science, technology, business in last 300-400 years and affects it has on lives all over world, quite clearly.
I hope it remains like that. One can see that this did not happen for Muslims and how it affects some of them now is also visible.
I am also concerned like you about desires of some to control thinking and expressions. Particularly idea that My religion is the best or my idea is the best. I wish Christians priests change their word conversion (and desire generated out of this word by them to show disrespect to ideas and symbols created by others) to adoption. I think almost every one in India specially Hindus will adopt very willingly to some of their ideas, it is already done quite a bit even though Christian churches do not recognize it). But I feel the desire to control about which you are worried is still too weak. Already a new style different from analytical thinking or experiment dominant in Science today is evolving from computers -- simulation. That might become one of the main tools to study very soon. It is potential of that one should look towards rather than these useless and meaningless fights.
Great post! I am so impressed with detailed information. Sorry for that I thought you are female due to name Soumya.
Hi, Soumya, followed you through your comments elsewhere in a blog. I like your ideas about the commonality of purpose in science and Religion. The Religion is there for getting peace; but not so with the dogmas, which unfortunately some religions suffer from. They are the cause of suffering for so many in the world.
Religion is meant to give peace, yet it is used to destroy this very same peace.
I have also been a science student, and I never find anything that may suggest that science and religion are mutually exclusive. The fact is, the Reality is so big, and the man, along with all his knowledge is so small, that he is bound to see many contradictions between various aspects of these various kinds of knowledge. But all these apparent contradictions disappear when one sees the ultimate truth, the light.
Like Patanjali has written in Yoga Sutra, I do not remember the exact words - Logic can take you this far and no more.
At one point logic and reasoning fail.
I have often seen logic being abused so that at one level I really don't believe in logic. I feel you can prove anything with logic. Having too much faith in logic is itself a dogma!
Have you ever come across a geometry theorem, perfectly valid, where you can prove, quite logically, that all triangles are Congruous. It was in a Geometry text book that I studied in school. The author had given it in the Appendix, just to show that even while following logic, one must keep one's common sense intact. With pure logic you can prove many things which cannot be correct.
By the way, St. Thomas never came to India, it is a myth spread by the Church, to validate its operations in India. For more information, download the book "The Myth Of Saint Thomas And Mylapur Shiva Temple" from the following links, it is freely downloadable-
OR
http://hamsa.org/myth_of_saint_thomas.pdf
By the way, thanks for your nice comments on the other blog. You are motivating me to start my blog/Hubpages.
Maybe I will really do it ;)
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Hi! GyanP
Welcome! You write very well. You should indeed start your own hub. Now that I know how you write and think, I will be your fan as soon as you start. Like your this comment has interesting information which lot of people will very much like to go through. An article on this topic from you surely will be very interesting.
I quite agree with you about logic being not an end. In mathematics one learns it quite in the beginning that if you do not start with right axioms you can use logic to prove any thing.
I am quite surprised that there is some dispute about St. Thomas being in India. I thought there is also his tomb near Chennai.
In any case my point is more about that India is one of the few countries (perhaps only one?) where Christianity has continued to be practiced in an interrupted manner since first century AD.
As I said in the other blog, style in India makes every faith to be accommodating to others to some extent at least, even monotheistic ones.
Did you notice that I have put my comment in that article by "BJP" in an article here it mentions your name also. I hope you do not mind.
I just wrote a comment below that the article
http://www.sandeepweb.com/2010/07/07/clash-of-mono...
on this "BJP" blogger phenomena. You have still not given up on him?
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Hi! GyanP
I saw link given by you. Thank you.
Even if this new theory is right, it does not change my point much - may not 1st century but from 345 AD. Still much longer period than perhaps any other place?
Sorry for interrupting. The visit of St. Thomas to India is a myth. It never happened! He never came here. The said Church is built upon the rubble of a temple, which was pulled down for just this purpose.This is what the author of that book proves.
As Koenrad Elst has pointed out in the Foreword of the book, I quote him verbatim-
"In Catholic universities in Europe, the myth of the apostle Thomas going to India is no longer taught as history, but in India it is still considered useful. Even many vocal “secularists” who attack the Hindus for “relying on myth” in the Ayodhya affair, offhand
profess their belief in the Thomas myth. The important point is that Thomas can be upheld as a martyr and the Brahmins decried as fanatics.
"In reality, the missionaries were very disgruntled that the damned Hindus refused to give them martyrs (whose blood is welcomed as “the seed of the faith”), so they had to invent one. Moreover, the church which they claim commemorates St.Thomas' martyrdom at the hands of Hindu fanaticism, is in fact a monument of Hindu martyrdom at the hands of Christian fanaticism. It is a forcible replacement of two important Hindu temples (Jain and Shaiva) whose existence was insupportable to the Christian missionaries."
Sorry, if I disturb your thought process and peace. But, let the truth be out.
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Hi! GyanP
Your visits are always a big pleasure any time. Please feel free to come over any time. I consider a hub place today to be more like an Ashram where people come and try to understand each other and this world.
Interesting description you have given. At least the argument of this guy Koenrad Elst are quite compelling to try to study further and confirm the truth completely, if possible.
I saw the older story. Any way the story that some Brahman killed St. Thomas should certainly be quite of the mark. In our whole Historic or prehistoric period as far as I can recall except of Parashuram's stories or Ravana's stories (who were supposed to have lived much more than 8-10 thousand years back) there are no instance when Brahmans were involved in killing. Killing, war etc. were supposed to be done by Kshatriyas or some other communities.
This type of phenomena is quite common (secular lobby's manipulation of History or helping it to be manipulated) in our study and research of History after Independence. If reports one hears are correct, whole academic world in India for last several decades is being continuously manipulated and dominated by just one style of History propagated by this so called secular lobby. I do not know how they can be called secular?
Another such example is that for all these decades they did not allow even to study reasons for disappearance Saraswati river or about heritage - how much of it really came from North.
Only when remote sensing devices and DNA analysis completely debunked their theories a little study has been started now. Though still that left orsecular lobby seems to be strong enough.
Have you heard of any other country in world in any era of civilizations where History experts will not want to allow studying or researching in heritage of their own civilizations?
It looks like License raj in our country is over in Industry but not yet in academics. Our socialist (really speaking it is feudal and not socialist) and license raj lobby indeed continues to destroy a lot.
Hi Soumya, the following links might interest you-
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/
http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/
As you have rightly pointed out above- the academia which, uptil now, has thwarted all the attempts to study the course of Saraswati - what kind of academia is this?
Are they really concerned about Indian/Hindu heritage? Or there is some other motivation - maybe which has nothing to do with their subject matters. Arun Shourie has give a good description of such 'scholarship' in his 'Eminent Historians'.
It is nothing but fraud perpetrated on the people of India.
A nation, and a whole young generation, which is not aware of its true history and heritage - what will it do? Where will it go?
That is one of the reasons for the impression of rootlessness that the educated masses give off here in India. They are truly 'root less'.
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Hi! GyanP
Thanks a lot. I will look at the links. I quite agree with you. "What type of academia is this?"
As I mentioned above the license raj of the so called leftist (or what ever you call it socialist, communist) forces led by Congress party - which are essentially feudal in nature of governance while they call themselves socialist is the main reason for this decline.
Many of our academic bodies are still being run in feudal manner. People who governed these bodies even 30-40 years back still continue to rule. They have stopped long back doing any thing worthwhile, in academic terms. All their attention is only on one aspect. How to continue their power benefiting themselves or their descendants.
Even BJP (I mean real BJP and not that strange guy) is a little lost in this feudal raj. It is one of few parties with cadre based management structure. But it is not that strong party as is needed today. Only thing good about it is that it does not have so feudal management and does have some good people like Arun Shorey or Jetaly etc.
Otherwise there is a big vacuum still in management in India, in government funded bodies. Academics is by and large government funded any way.
Though I am still very optimistic because of people of India. They are hard working and have desire to improve their family life. One often hears in business circles "when the government sleeps we work efficiently"-indeed it will be good for India for such a government to sleep all hours. The place where I work, no one gets overtime. Government has given some good facilities like air-conditioned offices good housing etc. But otherwise as you know government salaries are almost nothing. Most scientists who work there (more than 200) go to their labs even on Sundays or late night to work, despite these conditions. They enjoy their work. I have been associated with private organizations also. Even in private organizations young engineers etc. I saw had similar eagerness. Our media press never even tries to see this dedication visible all over India. They prefer to talk about only petty fights, or nonexistent issues.
It is such people who really run India and not those spent forces and feudal managers. I hope we can make working and living environment for them better in near future.
Thanks Soumya for you insightful observations. One positive thing, at least, has been done by the internet -- it has taken away, from the hands of a few coteries, the stranglehold on knowledge.
Now, knowledge is the strongest weapon that ordinary people, like us, can use against such people. They have spread the misinformation, attempted to stop the meaningful knowledge to be created - 'created' because knowledge is not only the dead 'information', it is how we handle it, and how we interpret it.
Without right knowledge any society is dead, which, I am afraid, was happening till now.
I hope you came across the California textbook controversy. I think, internet came handy as a very useful instrument during the whole battle - though it is sad, that the outcome, so far, was not entirely in our favor.
In the course of that whole affair, the true colors of our very own Romila Thapar were also bared.
Secondly, you are right in saying that the few dedicated people are running the country - who are sincere towards their work. The same case is with our organization - a government one.
But, sadly, I feel, the reservation raj may destroy all that - then the slide of this country will be total. It will be the final push it needs for sinking to the bottom.
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Hi! GyanP
I quite agree with you on all points you made.
Internet has indeed helped in some other aspects also in moving towards a better academic life in India (though still we have to go long way). I talk about it often in my lectures to youngsters also.
In the past with license raj policies, going to foreign countries was a big privilege. Inviting an academician from a foreign country was even more difficult. Very few academic institutions could subscribe to academic journal in any field. A good initial training in the basic knowledge needed for research was missing from our academic life in practically all institutes (it still is in most institutions). I know this in Science/Engineering world. From the way people behave I think in liberal arts etc. situation must be even worse.
I was fortunate to be in a good institute with all these facilities available automatically. So I can see the value of these in building up your thinking, not just in your field but in all aspects of your life. Though still there is suffering some times when feudal management starts winning even in well managed places. One has to be careful.
But I saw throughout my life, all over India that there are so many equally talented people in universities or even in remote colleges. Some of them could still do well with their own efforts. What left me with sadness was seeing that many very hard working people got involved in useless work and adoring their teacher/guide who himself/herself was equally involved in similar useless work because of above mentioned non-exposure. It was not their fault. They never had exposure to learn or assess what is good.
It has indeed been one of the greatest waste in our country. Not just academic but even commercial life also suffers often from similar phenomena.
Now with Internet, practically a person in a small village can also be in touch with a good person any where in world and learn if at least he has wish to start in the right direction (even this start is still missing unfortunately in our country in most institutions-- though I find many students very eager to learn and work hard). With economy improving going to foreign countries is also no longer such a big deal.
This should surely help in reducing this "hoawa" of foreign certificates quite a bit.
I hope some day we start working on our own problems looking at our selves (we do not even think about keeping our country cleaned properly - and escape by talking about big international and technical subjects
or getting lost in petty and meaningless fights on secular nonsecular etc. (in a country where being secular just comes naturally to almost all the day they are born).
Though still feudal hold on academic bodies and institutions is strong and continues to harm a lot.
One needs to bring management by faculty back in small colleges universities as well as in big research places.
But as I said in my comment in the other place I am very optimistic because of silent majority in India and in generation next. They are much more practical.
By the way what exactly you do. You mentioned you are in a government set up. Do start a hub. That way at least I will know a lot more about you. I think many will feel happy to go through your views.
I am in the field of Information Technology - software development and support.
soumyasrajan
I agree with Springboard's comments.
I just don't believe in the biblical God.
In addition, I would comment on your view of religion and science.
I think a perfect example is Western Medical Practice.
The diseases of the body such as the virus which you have mentioned cannot be treated with only Western Science, at least not successfully.
Western Medical doctors don't go outside of the boundaries of their science when fighting disease.
This gives viruses and other diseases continued life at the expense of our health.
Western Medical Science should be united with holistic and other ancient remedies in the fight for health.
The brain cannot be separated from the body and vice verse, but that is what Western Medical practice does all the time.
This example can be compared with Religion and Science in general. A religion that doesn't believe in science is only halfway there. The comparison is rougher because it is spiritual versus real, as opposed to mind versus body.
I guess another comparison would be with the mind and spirit. Is the spirit a part of the mind or is it a separate entity?
~:}
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Hi! OpnionDuck
I quite agree with you. I enjoyed your articles and discussion with you also very much. All styles of knowledge should be joined together to make life better specially health of people.
I also quite agree with you any style of study in general (including religious ones) has to include Scientific style. In fact motive of a person pleading to not to include it is a bit questionable?
I like your question -Is spirit part of mind or is it separate?
I plan to write a hub (it may require perhaps more than one ) about some basic ideas from ancient Indian thought about these aspects. For example in Indian philosophy spirit (or soul) is essentially considered to be just an alibi. It does not do any action just "watches" all action. I will write some more details.
Hi Soumyasrajan
Thanks for the reply and agreement.
I look forward to your new hubs.
Science, religion and philosophy are all trying to answer the same fundamental questions concerning life. What differs is their approach.
However: science runs in circles as it cannot go beyond the material. It starts with the senses and ends with the senses. (it may extend the capacity of the senses but can never go beyond them).
What does science know about the inner world of thoughts and feelings? What can it explain with respect to consciousness? Very little or nothing at all. Science deals in qualities and quantities, it deals very well with manifestation; how things functions etc, but will never touch Reality for the senses cannot reach beyond themselves.
Science is only recently confirming what saints and sages, seers and mystics have been trying to say for thousands of years. These are the true scientists of the mind for only through exploring the inner space of their own minds (without sophisticated technology) have they come to know Truth. We would be wise to pay attention to what they have to say.
The limitations of philosophy is that it relies on thought. Thought is an abstract convention. It is an artificial device in which no amount of mental wrestling or intellectual acrobatics can ever arrive at the essence of Truth. Logic and language are dualistic in nature. Truth just Is!
The word bread does not get rid of my hunger. The definition or description of a sunset is not the direct realization or experience of it. Ideas are mere imagination squeezed into verbal defintions. We cannot know what we define. We can define God, love and Truth but can we know them through words?...No! Only through direct experience can the Supreme be known. Truth is where the "I" is not.
Religion as we know it today is a far cry from what their humble beginnings or original intentions were. The truth that underlies all faiths has got lost over the centuries and their teachings have been corrupted by greed and ignorance. What divides them is superficial only. It is normal for diffrent cultures to describe the ONE REALITY using their own terminology. To not understand this has led to much unnecessary pain and grief.
Ceremonies and rituals have replaced the inner work of contemplation and meditation as proper means of liberation (of the personal or ego-self). The greed and or fear of man is what motivates most religious activity and will carry on doing so until people wake up to the unifying factor that unites all religious and spiritual traditions.
The price of ignorance is high and the burdens we have to carry are heavy. To question every belief is not only our right, but our duty as human beings. To be real to ourselves and to be real to others is the responsibility of each of us as individuals. Truth in action is what makes life meaningful and beautiful. Lets not deny ourselves our heritage!
Thank you for a great hub!
- Author
Hi! Ashmi
Thanks a lot for visit and nice comment. I like your so strong conviction on the basic idea of truth. Yes I quite agree a path towards understanding and identifying with truth is the real religion.
awesome........
- Author
Thanks a lot sujju for appreciation. I was just reading your nice article on India.
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