Is the grass greener on the other side, away from South Africa?

Thanks for the insight it was a good a really good hub Thank YOU

Super, super Hub, cindyvine! I too love this country which we share and in particular the city of my birth, Cape Town.

Sure we have our problems here and the crime is too high. But what great compensations - the weather, the scenary, and most importantly, the people.

I have often thought, especially during the awful apartheid years, of moving, but then I've been out of the country and couldn't wait to get back.

There is an energy, and a vibe here that is not matched anywhere else, I believe.

The whingers would whinge anywhere, so let them go.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I wish you all the best in China, which must, for all its problems, be a fascinating place to be (at least for a while).

Love and peace

Tony

Have you not considered that your desire to return may just be home-sickness. Perhaps if you were here your horror stories would be a little more current and closer to home. My girlfriend was smash & grabbed 3 months ago and 2 weeks ago while parking her car had to duck bullets while police chased after robbers who'd carjacked someone else. Stories used to be a friend of a friend...nowdays it's me & you. You mention an email of a baby being raperd 8 years ago and a carjacking 3 years ago. Do you honestly beleive no baby raping or carjacking has happened since then. With our stats, one of each probably occurred while I'm writing this

I gather you're from Cape Town, please remember this is hardly typical of SA. It's one of the few towns not run by the ruling party. Why not embrace the true SA dream/nighmare and move into Durban city centre with it's condemned buildings, crumbling roads and filth which is getting worse by the day. You've been away 6 years, are you in for a surprise when you get back.

You seem really anxious to embrace a country that has little desire to embrace you. AA, BEE and political mutterings are constant reminders of this. Because you couldn't bring yourself to fill in the NZ citizenship papers is also a sign you never truly left SA and didn't embrace the country that extended a hand when you wanted it. Maybe this has more to do with not being accepted there than you'd realise.

The firing the president and "smooth transition" you mention may also be general apathy. Perhaps you've forgotten the constant administrative bungling, rampant corruption and the bottomless pit you'd be ploughing your taxes into, never to see much in return.

All your positives revolve around scenery, weather & (the very vague) "vibrant people". Call me a whinger if you like but I cannot be positive when I see no positive signs around me. As for the stick around and make things better notion...I wish you luck changing the world. Why not change the world where you are though, it may not be as much of a monumental task?

There's a monastry near where I live. They have an outreach program that schools & feeds the needy. You'd think this would earn them respect in the community and nobody would mess with a good thing. Guess again, after about a dozen armed hold-ups & roberries they decided to call it quits and closed down parts of their means of helping.

Call me whinger...I'll accept that, but you seem to whinge a fair amount too.

Of course there are problems everywhere. If any place were paradise troublemakers would instantly flock there. Nobody expects paradise, but a home one can actually feel fairly safe in is a good start.

What you asked was whether the grass was greener. Crime-statistically it certainly is. SA has one of the highest crime rates on the planet. As for the weather, one can live with it, bullets are a bit harder to live with.

Before you return to live in SA, take a really long holiday, travel and marvel at the changes...whatever you decide, I wish you the best

Well, 'Up up and awaaaaay' if it wasn't for our horrid apartheid we wouldn't be in this mess. You will probably say to me 'oh blaming the past again, blaming apartheid, blaming the whites', but it's just a fact that apartheid brought about the social and economic imbalances that the new govt has to deal with. In the past white people lived safely in their suburbs being supplied fully by strong police presence to keep them safe and protected, had adequate municipal services, the poorest whites had housekeepers they didn't even often pay with money but other things like cigarettes or alcohol. Meanwhile, kids in the disadvantaged areas received poor education, didn't eat properly and farm workers in rural areas were abused, killed and raped by white farmers and nobody gave a damn. Nobody even dared take them to court or lay charges because case dockets would mysteriously disappear or the farmer or whoever it was would just somehow get away with it and go unpunished. Now those same starved and undereducated kids, who virtually received little chance to succeed in life now resort to crime to survive. Most people who get involved in crime don't do it because they want to, but for many it seems the only way. They are so dehumanised (a strategy of apartheid) that now they dehumanise other people and guess who the victims are.

You may hate me for saying this but karma is real. Crime is never right but remember apartheid was a crime against humanity and this a crime against the black (black, coloured, indian) people in this country. Even today in interpersonal relationships between whites and blacks, some whites still have a superior attitude and treat people of colour as objects without feelings.Saying this doesn't make me a racist as you might think, but it's simply true, because that's how their minds were programmed to think that way.

The new govt and SA society has a huge task in addressing the social and crime issues and it will take time for the economic scales to balance between the have's and have-nots.

When I watch international news, such as Al-Jazeera, and see all the political unrest, the poverty, war-torn countries, children forced to do labour or even forced into slavery to help supply the west with goods, I think despite the high crime we South Africans, even the poor, are damn lucky to at least have a stable society, and increasing opportunites for the youth to further their education. In countries like Columbia it's common for most tourists to get mugged, it's so bad there that women get forced into joining gangs or they die. It's not that bad here.

Let me tell you what happened to me. I took a trip to Nelspruit by bus earlier this year and had to go via Pretoria. I left my bank card at home and by the time I got to Pretoria I didn't have enough cash for a private taxi, with all my luggage. Being a female alone in a place I visited for the first time, with 2 large luggage bags, anything could've happened to me. A black car guard came to help with my bags and put it in his trolley to carry to the taxi. I tried to negotiate with a taxi driver after one refused to accept the R43 I had on me and wanted R60 instead. Then the car guard started negotiating with another taxi driver to accept the money and he settled for R50, and the car guard gave me the remainder R7 of his hard earned money. So where in the world will you get a complete stranger, a car guard, to help negotiate for a lost young lady of another race/ethnic group and still give her some of his hard -earned cash. He joked that one day when I see him again I can help him out also. I was SO lucky that day, it was like he was a guardian angel.

OK Domelia so basically what you're saying is injustices of the present are forgivable provided there are past injustices. Next time one of your friends or family gets mugged, raped or murdered just chalk it up to the evening-out scorecard. At 18000 murders last year, shame I didn’t realise it was the poor dehumanised killers who were actually the real victims.

Domelia you comment "if it wasn't for our horrid apartheid we wouldn't be in this mess", this is actually pointless speculation. How do you know this and who knows what might have been? It's very naïve to think that before the white man came to Africa all the local tribes were dancing, singing and playing in joyous harmony. It just seems that much like other killings in Africa, when it’s black on anyone, there’s no comment. However, should a white even slander a black, that’s justification for a knife in the throat (which is what actually happened at a SA school recently).

In fact if one looks at the downward spiral South Africa is experiencing with unprecedented violent crime, one might say that if this is the situation apartheid was preventing, maybe our forefathers can be forgiven for their actions. As for your “Karma is real” idea, this is a load of clap-trap. If this were real then atrocities against blacks would have been because they deserved it. Try your karma theory on the Jews and Russian gypsies of World War 2, families of decapitated humanitarians in the Middle East or the parents of a murdered school kid.

If I as a white person am expected to take personal responsibility for atrocities performed decades ago by others with the same colour skin, can I then expect to be given credit for technological inventions and luxuries brought here by people with the same skin colour that make black peoples’ lives better. You know little things like electricity, running water, medicine, education and books etc. Can you honestly say the average South Africans life is worse today than what it was before Europeans arrived in Africa? In fact the average black South Africans life was probably better in 1994 than the average white Europeans life was before they arrived in Africa.

Domelia you say "The new govt and SA society has a huge task in addressing the social and crime issues", and yet at the expense of the ordinary man in the street, they throw million rand parties, buy exorbitantly expensive cars, flout tender regulations, permit corruption to grow, commit millions to bottomless pits, turn blind eyes to politically connected people's crimes, appoint unqualified useless friends into positions of power and permit them to run the civil service and institutions into the ground. Institutions like Eskom, SABC, SANDF, police, education, health care etc, the list is endless. I suppose this is OK. Previously protection, quality education and hospitals (amongst many other services) weren’t available to many South Africans, now it’s available to practically none. Now that’s an improvement, that’s real equality.

A criminal record isn’t even a deterrent to holding public office under the ANC’s banner, in fact it’s almost become a prerequisite. How does the ANC maintain the moral high-ground while supporting the likes of Ray McCauley, Malema, Boesak (OK not since he joined COPE last year), Mugabe and Gadaffi?

It's really sad that so many people such as yourself use apartheid as the yardstick of comparison for what's going on in SA today. Both of you (Domelia & Cindy) cite a positive experience with a car guard. Before 1994 there were no car-guards. In the days before ANC rule it was safe to walk the streets at night, there were fewer murders, no cash in transit heists or kids stabbing each other at school. But I suppose what are a few kids’ innocent lives when we can enjoy freedom behind burglar bars.

As for your notion “children forced to do labour or even forced into slavery to help supply the west with goods”, like SA politicians you won’t for a second point a finger at the east like China who actually permit sweat-shops and child labour on their very own soil, oh no, that’s the West’s fault too. Grow up, open your eyes and take a reality check of the world. If Africa hadn’t been colonised by Europeans it would have just been a different race, probably the Chinese who’re renowned for their tolerance, compassion and kindness to animals, oh hang on…no they’re not. Even Africa’s colonisers were themselves colonised, those nations probably wouldn’t be what they are today had that not happened. You don’t see them squealing and moaning, pointing fingers with begging-bowl outstretched.

Domelia you also said "Saying this doesn't make me a racist as you might think". Firstly, I didn’t even raise the topic of racism before this reply, but since you brought it up, you seem to be of the opinion (as every single one of your examples illustrates) that racism is only committed by whites on blacks, which in itself is a racist notion. Secondly, you clearly posses incredible powers, capable of knowing what “I may think” and even more incredibly you’re also able to predict non-existent potential past futures (if it wasn't for our horrid apartheid we wouldn't be in this mess).

Perhaps you should use these almighty powers of prediction and instead of predicting a blinkered utopian past, try predicting the future and what yours and your family’s prospects might be in this environment, or is having your daughter raped OK because some guy raped a black decades ago?

http://www.news24.com/Content/SouthAfrica/Politics...

More than 1.5 million have left already and most have no plans to return, so it seems that things are better away from RSA. Wait till middle of 2010, when electricity prices will rise sharply and the econmy will take huge strain...then even more will look for greener pastures.

South Africans should put migration in its international context. This is a global world and people migrate all the time for many reasons. The concept of the "center of the world" or "dynamic city" or "place to make money" draws people from many countries to big cities like London or Paris or New York or Beijing. At the moment Italy is complaining about a brain drain.

Izzy, your comments are off the topic. Obviously people migrate for many reasons. The topic here was basically do people leave South Africa because they find another country attractive or do they escape because they find South Africa repulsive and is the move worth it (ie Is the grass greener?)

I originally came across this post while researching other peoples comments as I was in the process of migrating myself. I didn't want to leave my friends, family or business I'd spent 17 years building, but living behind tall walls with electric fences and burglar guards, alarms, armed-response and still having to deal with crime didn't seem like living to me.

I left SA 5 months ago because I just couldn't take the instability, crime, crumbling infrastructure, violence and aggression any more. So far it's been an absolute pleasure, I live in a house with no gate, fence, burglar-guards, alarm or armed response and I've never felt safer. Sure there have been adjustments I've had to get used to, but none that would make me consider the move a mistake.

Maybe in a few years, like Cindy, I too will be writing nostalgically about how wonderful SA is while living far removed from it's troubles and realities.

I moved to Sydney Australia 8 years ago, last year was the first year I return back to South Africa for a visit. After hearing some of the doom and gloom stories from other people visiting South Africa recently I was pleasantly surprised to find the many positive changes I found. If was great to spend some time revisiting the places where I grew up. Cape Town is still one of the most scenically beautiful cities in the world.

Just stumbled upon this! The 'grass is greener syndrome' afflicts a lot of Indians too and they rush off for greener pastures as soon as they graduate usually...though it seems to be happening with less urgency now that India is trying to catch up with the rest of the world. Each to his own, as long as they don't denigrate the country of their birth, which distressingly, a lot of them do!

I've been born and raised in South Africa. I've been here most of my life. I have tried going abroad, and its not always as easy as it seems. Yes, Here in South Africa you might have corruption and violence. But your living costs are affordable. We pay for fuel through our noses, but there is always public transport. Sometimes you have to sacrifice safety to make ends meet.

When I moved to Northern Ireland (Belfast), I barely survived, Its a wonderful place to go visit, or to stay, but be sure you have a job when moving there. When I got there, I was suddenly out looking for a job. 3 Months later, I scraped together just enough money to pay for a ticket back. back here, im finally in a decent job after job hunting for months.

It may be hard to find a decent job, but heck, it beats starving. Always remember when going abroad: Where you came from, that's where you know people, that's where your friends are and that's where your home is. Its not easy just packing up and going. Stick it out, and you learn to appreciate what you are fighting for!

@ SidneyMorgan, visiting Cape Town doesn't give a true reflection of SA in general. Yhis is such a common misconception that most people on this blog fall for. I have relatives in CT and am I grateful they're there. The Western Cape is the only province not run by the ANC and it shows.

@ Feline Prophet & Cindy, why shouldn't I denigrate the land of my birth? I'm more qualified to slate or praise SA than any other country. I'm quite entitled to say whatever I like about SA, so long as it's true. This should actually be welcomed since if one were only permitted to write only positive comments they'd be biased & worthless as everyone would know the contradictory opinions were subverted. Imagine if such an idea were legislated...bye bye freedom of speech.

@ Piglitza, pity you didn't have a bit more of a cushion to survive a bit longer. I've beem out of SA for 7 months and have struggled to find work so I've started a small business which is very slowly starting to pick up steam. You're absolutely right though, it isn't easy emmigrating (staying is very easy...it requires one do absolutely nothing different) but I feel emmigrating is totally worth it. Who wants to bring up a family or grow old in the prevailing SA environment.

I'm amazed at how patriotic everyone here is despite the place rapidly going down the tubes. In the vast majority of places roads are deteriorating, traffic-lights are disfunctional, police are more corrupt than ever, education standards are slipping, health services are crippled, Eskom is teetering, the defence force is a shambles, air-force and navy are just for show, road accident fund bankrupt, large percentage of municipalities hemmoraging cash, SABC has become a political mouthpiece, politicians get preferential blue-light red-carpet treatment while dipping their greedy paws into the public purse, government hands contracts & positions to unqualified friends and family, nepotism is rife, no end in sight for affirmative action (even kids who went through their entire schooling after the fall of apartheid are subject to AA) and of course violent crime is at insane levels. In fact practically every service has gone downhill with the exception of SARS...big surprise. With the track record of the current pres and the future one being touted as Malema, I'm not quite sure where all this optomism stems from.

When things get so bad even the blind can see the writing on the wall and the ruling party starts losing it's grip on power I shudder to think what will happen. Anyone who looks at our politicians current conduct & thinks that transition will be smooth and dignified is living in dreamland.

As for SA being cheap, it's not so when one works there. Earning an overseas salary and visiting SA is a completely different ball game. Property in SA is relatively cheap, cars outrageously expensive, plus you cannot rely on state medical facilities so you need very expensive medical aid. You also need to spend a small fortune on insurance & armed response. The cheapest thing in SA is the value of life.

If wearing blinkers helps one get through the day then wear them by all means, my advice is to get out before the place becomes Zim 2 and beat the rush, I miss family, friends and weather...nothing else.

Yes u got robbed in other countries that happens everywhere but in sa u dont just get robbed they murder u and rape your wife and kids wtf wait till u have been a victim in that way then ill promise u the grass is very greener on the other side obviously u will miss the nice weather having a braai etc but like i say only real victims of violent sa crimes wil feel that way wake up they not robbing us they are killing us in sa

To bsically talk about crime and use SA and NZ in the same sentence is a testament to how out of touch with reality in SA you are.

I'm in NZ, the road in which I live is 400m long. Only 2 houses have a gate. Most including mine have no fence or burglar guards either. You compare that to a country where armed response and razor wire are mandatory. A place where the government wanted to go to court to argue its right to run around chanting songs about shooting a minority group.

They don't only sing about it either, several ANC officials are facing charges of leading thugs on a rampage in Durban that resulted in the pushing of Zimbabweans out of flat windows, making them fall to their deaths below. They've been identified from CCTV footage. Of course since they're ruling party members, nobody really expects them to see the inside of a jail.

If things weren't getting worse all the time I'd have hope. Unfortunately they're not. The ruling party is becoming more and more militant, radical and threatening.

In the 8 months I've been away, 7 of my friends in SA have been robbed, hijacked or held at gunpoint in their home. My perception isn't based on some romantic decade old notion of Cape Town, but very recent real personal experiences and 1st hand accounts from family & friends still there.

I can honestly say, that a few months of being away has made me a happier & less stressed person. My thoughts and prayers are no longer for my own safety but for those I left behind. Anyone thinking of jumping ship, my advice is to do it. It's very hard especially in the beginning, but the benefits will eventually outweigh the sacrifices.

Cindy, you may have been lucky in SA and unlucky in other places you've lived but luck always changes. You made the right decision to leave ages ago, you just haven't realised it yet. If SA is so wonderful and with all your country-hopping, why wasn't SA chosen as a place to return to?

I think absence really does make the heart grow fonder.

Shane Wenzel

Shane Wenzel appears to like threatening and intimidating people. According to this HoS story, he has:

* tried to take a camera from a Herald on Sunday photographer

* physically shoved a reporter

* tried to strip a mobile telephone from the hands of a reporter as he tried to call police

* verbally threatened National Party MPs Katherine Rich and Judith Collins

* demanded that Bob Clarkson’s office supply personal information about complaining students and when refused said he would ruin Mr Clarkson

I see he also has his own address www.shanewenzel.com Read it too.

Cindy, you compare this to the masses singing "shoot the boer" with the ANC's blessing which is literally a call for state sponsored genocide against a minority.

In every country there will be nutters, just in SA they seem to earmarked for politics. Here's a clip of SA's predident in waitings conduct http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b72HV2UM_H0

Surely after watching this you have to admit there's great cause for concern and not a place you'd want your kids to live in. Trust me it's not an isolated incident by a single individual either.

As a teacher and a patriot I'm surprised you don't return to SA urgently, they're desperate for your skills there.

Out of curiosity do your family in SA honestly say all is well there and that you should return?

One shouldn't need to experience cancer to know it's bad.

Just a metaphor Cindy, as I'm quite sure you're aware.

Although we may not agree, I really have to give you credit for not just deleting my comments and opinions which are in stark contrast to your own. Lesser people would have just taken the entire page offline.

For the record that's not a sympathy comment because of your history with cancer, I did feel that was a bit of a low blow. Still I'm probably guilty of a few myself.

Thanks for your article. I'm a South African living in Dubai. I'm going back home in December for good, and i cannot wait! The grass is not greener on the other side, and I have learned that first hand! Athough Dubai has not been terrible, i really appreciate south africa alot more! Everybody says our crime is out of control, and I'm not going to disagree, but I spent 21 years of my life in SA and nothing happened to me personally (touch wood) it was when i was living by myself in Dubai that men have tried to force themselves into my apartment, followed me in the street and harassed me, and this is supposed to be the safest country in the world!

South Africa is such a great place.

We have so much to be proud of!

Do you guys think the cops make up these stats to make themselves look bad?

Here's the official (read...watered down) stats)

http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimesta...

As Lyn says SA may be a great place, but with crime this rampant it's difficult to be proud of or enjoy the place. Crime influences everything you do here, from going to work to sleeping at night.

You are not "just as likeley to experience crime" in other parts of the world, this is why SA is considered the murder and rape capital of the world. Those stats in a per capita context are extreme, in fact they excede many warzones. For someone living in another country to take pride that murders here have reduced from about 1 every half an hour to one every 33 minutes is laughable and insensetive to us that have to live with it.

In the past 18 months I've been robbed 3 times, 2 friends hijacked, 1 held up in her own home with a gun to her head, 6 friends homes burgled, 1 was followed from the bank after making a withdrawal and nearly rammed off the road, 1 has had his business held up and the same business was robbed a few weeks later, also a friend of a friend raped during a robbery. I could go on but those are the main highlights. Apart from the rape, these are all people I socialise with personally. This is not normal and shouldn't be trivialised because someone somewhere else was also unfortunately subjected to a violent crime.

Frankly I don't care what the stats say, this place is getting worse, just fewer people bother reporting crimes as the cops are so useless.

In fact it looks like I'm wrong, SA isn't the crime capital, Columbia is higher

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-c...

While I don't see Egypt's murder rate, you constantly cite New Zealand which is 0.01 vs SA's 0.49 . Even poverty stricken Zim is 0.07 .

This is reality, but until you come back you'll never understand or apreciate it.

Those stats from Reality Check are per capita, so poulation size isn't an excuse. Without adjusting for the population difference SA has about the same number of murders over a weekend that NZ has for the year, that's quite scary no matter how you look at it

Wow.. glad to see this page, thanks for this.

So happy to have found this page.

Thanks for sharing your experience in China.

I can relate to the China experience for sure!

My husband is from SA. I found your page to be very uplifting. I have been there twice, it gets under your skin. I hate leaving and am always anticipating our return. I fell in love with the Afrikaans culture and with my husbands family. Coming home is always a culture shock for us, not the going there.