The non-mystery of consciousness

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   Pcunixposted 13 years ago

   References for those unfamiliar with the babbling about this:
   
   http://richarddawkins.net/articles/554- … sciousness
   
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadows_of_the_Mind
   
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind
   
   There is no mystery.  Our brains are just chemical and electrical machines that weigh inputs and reach decisions. Although obviously more complex, they are no different in this regard than mechanical logic gates - http://goldfish.ikaruga.co.uk/logic.html
   
   I truly get disgusted by those who think there is anything "emergent", unless they also think that a spreadsheet program is "emergent" from the logic circuits of a computer.
   
   I see no mysteries.  Your sense of "I" is nothing more than echoes and feedback as the various parts of your brain do their job. You hear yourself think - so what?  A computer debugger "hears" another program at work.

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      ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRP_S3Cd-7U

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      ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Also, please realize that I could have written that wikipedia page to make fun of you. You can't even use wiki for research in highschool. get a better source.

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      Shahid Bukhariposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Who dies ... the "I" ... or the body, containing an Awareness, calling itself Pcunix ... ?

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         Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         All of them.

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      Shahid Bukhariposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Who lives, and dies ... The "I" ... or a Pcunix ... hiding behind what in all probability is a John ...
      
      Mind, Transcends both, Matter and Idea ...  Mind is a Gift of God to His Created ... Humans... without a Mind, we would not be able to Reconcile the Existent, to Reality ...
      
      ... sans Mind, we are Dead; with Mind, we Live.

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   knolyourselfposted 13 years ago

   Scientists always try to describe religion with science. If it exists it would be other dimensional.

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      Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I don't know that there is always religion behind it, but the babble is similar: qualia and all that rot.

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         paradigmsearchposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Another truly excellent word. Thank you, Pcunix.
         
         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

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            Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            A word only used by fools, I think.
            
            Any time you have to make up a new word and it takes more than a sentence to say why, I call b.s..
            
            Quail is b.s.

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               paradigmsearchposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               "Daniel Dennett coined the terms qualophiles for philosophers who believe in qualia; and qualophobes for those who don't."
               
               I wonder which one you are...

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                  Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  A realist. Somebody a lot smarter than anyone who thinks there is any mystery.

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                     ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Reality is your creation.
                     
                     SO you're right. There is no mystery in your reality. Because even when you are presented with an intriguing aspect of reality, your mind mechanizes into thinking it is a mere mechanism, which it could be, except that we have not as yet been able to recreate it.
                     
                     We don't know where qualia comes from or the source of the universe. That is why we persist in studying the brain and the universe. If we have figured it out, we would be tinkering with creating little laboratory universes and we will be making androids who can argue with us here in the forum.
                     
                     Is that our reality right now? Do you have a baby universe in your living room? Or a pet artificial brain? No? well, you figured it out. Make one.

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   Sally's Troveposted 13 years ago

   Qualia-Umami. Extra words that popped up after the age of reasoning and the modern philosophies that followed. Extra words to describe those aspects of mind that don't lend themselves to being explained through traditional scientific and philosophic modes of investigation.
   
   Umami is on its way to having a rational explanation in line with physiology and chemistry.
   
   Qualia is more elusive and thus is pondered in philosophical terms.
   
   So long as humans contemplate the meaning of consciousness, they'll remain somewhat humble, knowing that there's something they don't know and can't explain. This humility may be what keeps us from annihilating ourselves.

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      Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      What humility is needed to understand that your mind is just a machine?

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         Sally's Troveposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Just humility. There is no special kind. I don't know everything. If I did, I'd be God (or whatever manifestation anyone subscribes to...the essence that is bigger than that which can be comprehended by the mind). Are you?

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            Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            By your reasoning, apparently so.

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         camloposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Pcunix - you might be right, you might be wrong. I feel more comfortable believing that this 'I' that I feel is eternal and very spiritual. What I like to believe could be a load of poppycock, I know, but I have to believe in something now I don't believe in Father Christmas and the Toothe Fairies etc. anymore.

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         Polly Cposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I think human consciousness leaves a lot unexplained. I personally knew someone who had many insights about people, some who she knew (like me) and some she had not even met. Also, she has described the physcial appearance of a building she had never ever seen simply by holding a piece of stone from the building in her hand (and it was not an ordinary looking building, nor was it local). I don't know how this can be  explained just by the 'mind is a machine' theory. because even if the mind is simply a machine, it must be a lot more complicated than many scientists seem to believe.

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            Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            If she actually could do that, she could collect prizes that are offered for such.
            
            But she cannot, so she will not. All bunk.

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         melporposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I agree with PCunix. Consciousness is only the results of biochemical reactions in our brain and religion has nothing to do with it. This is why doctors decide death by the cessation of all brain activities, electrical and chemical.  Consciousness cease to exist after death.

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   paradigmsearchposted 13 years ago

   If qualia exists, then animals have it as well as humans.
   
   e.g.
   
   I have seen chipmunks do double takes.
   
   And
   
   Dogs look nonplussed.

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   paradigmsearchposted 13 years ago

   It should be noted for this discussion that the professional philosophers, themselves, can’t figure out the definition for qualia.

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   ceciliabeltranposted 13 years ago

   PC, you really have to update your reading list. You are obviously able to understand complex data, but your understanding will be limited if you do not increase your knowledge in mainstream science. Please, stop insisting on 1970s thinking, the world already changed.
   
   A researcher using computers to recreate the brain.
   
   "99% of what you see does not come from the eyes but what I infer from it"
   
   For the Nth time...Markham on the bluebrain project:
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS3wMC2BpxU
   
   ON seeing color/reality
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf5otGNb … ure=relmfu
   
   "context is everything" meaning reality is not absolute, it is inferred depending on ability to perceive.

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      Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      That has nothing to do with this. As usual, you have no idea what is being discussed.

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         ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         That has everything to do with this. It demonstrates how your consciousness infers what reality is. See, pointless. You don't see the connections. Even when they are plainly stated. They are making artificial intelligence based on the very premise you are refusing because as of yet WE don't know where qualia comes from.
         
         Those two clips clearly show that your reality is based on a very UNIX based system. Expand. Learn more so you can participate in the discussion of what's out there now, what possibilities they imply, instead of dismissing new knowledge to protect your worldview.

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            Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            There is no such thing as qualia.

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               ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               no such thing as pain, seeing a rose etc?  that is qualia, the experience of being conscious. that doesn't exist? you don't feel annoyed by me? that is qualia too. I guess you really are wired differently.

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                  Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I am hardly the only person who denies this nonsense.
                  
                  So, yes, Cecilia, some of us are wired differently. We are the smarter ones who know that human brains are just biological machines and nothing more.

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                     CMHypnoposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Pcunix, you are welcome to believe that you are nothing more than an insentient biological machine, but this continual riducule of anyone who has any form of spiritual belief or sense of the numinous in their lives is getting tedious.  As is your repeated assertions that we are stupid, fools and I think that one of your posts even said that the way we think 'disgusts you'.
                     
                     I have to question why you are so determined to always be right, to be seen as more intelligent and generally superior to the bulk of humanity? Why can't you just live and let live, and maybe even accept that you still have a lot to learn about life, as we all do? There is a big difference between debate and exchanging ideas, and insisting that others think exactly the way that you do and branding them as idiots if they dare to disagree

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                        Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        I have never said that theists are "stupid". 
                        
                        As to the rest, yes, I have no respect for religious thought or belief and I AM right about religion and this.

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   Cagsilposted 13 years ago

   Reality exists free of thoughts, desires, will or wishes. Reality exists and is all knowable knowledge available. Reality only changes based on creation of new things, discoveries such as new knowledge to be added or in cures for diseases.
   
   Example: Presently, in reality, there isn't a cure for cancer. However, as medical science continues to explore reality for answers and finds them, then cures become part of reality.
   
   When you use the word in context- as "You create your own reality"? Which is untrue. You in fact create your own situation or circumstance within the confines of your learned ability. Reality doesn't change, unless the individual actually creates new things, which come into existence, as an object. Other than that, an individual's thoughts(including perception) has nothing to do with reality.

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      ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      We are talking about reality as in what the senses perceives. But if you want to talk about reality in terms of there is no cure for cancer. The reality is there are many ways that are being explored to cure cancer, but one that you can bottle and make available at reasonable costs is the real pursuit. Plus, different levels of cancer are cured differently.
      
      http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/01/0 … er-corner/
      
      Reality changes based on what you know. So in reality YOU DON'T KNOW if there is a cure for cancer or not. But you infer from what you know to construct what you describe as reality.

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         Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         

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            ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            yes, you are funny.

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   paradigmsearchposted 13 years ago

   I'll add:
   
   You can ignore reality, but reality won’t ignore you.

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   knolyourselfposted 13 years ago

   I agree with an objective reality.

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    superwagsposted 13 years ago

    In the words of Leonard Susskind in a recent BBC documentary; "If you think you understand reality, then you don't. Nobody does."
    
    Do we live inside of a hologram, probably. Are we in just one of an infinite number of parallel universes, quite possibly. Are we existing inside of a simulation, why not?
    
    Anyone interested in the afore mentioned documentary - and it really is brilliant - can find it below:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4Z8CqAiYI8

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       fatfistposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       
       
       
       That's a nice Primate Religion you got there, superwags. You can explain everything by "nothing", "delusion", "non-understanding" and "self-creation".
       Your partners-in-crime, The Christians, can explain everything by God! They've got more brains than you.

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          superwagsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Oh God it's you again. Unlike someone religious I left open the possibility of there being lots of different answers to our take on reality. I didn't state anything.
          
          Unlike you, I seem to remember. If I remember rightly, you were denying that the big bang ever happened the last time we spoke. Terrifying.
          
          Even that last post there had absolutely no semblance of a point to it.

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       ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       you can send them links from BBC, scientists in the forefront of study, and you know what...none of that will sink in.
       
       these are not arguments, these are people who like to protect a worldview. They are not interested in learning, discussing or understanding. They are interested in battling their own shadows. But they are great platforms to talk about things that are already out there. SO that people who ARE interested in exploring these new topics will see them. There are many lurkers, people who read but do not participate and it is for these people's sake that I bother to send links.

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          Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Sure, Cecilia: it's the lurkers who support you.  It must be, because no one else does.
          
          Tell us again about how integers don't exist and about sentient rocks. I never tire of hearing you explain these things.

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             ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             and tell me again how you've proven gods don't exist but lets not measure what sentience is or define it.
             
             You can take me out of context and twist my words around but lets not forget who is deluded enough to think he has cracked the mystery of consciousness and reality.
             
             why don't you go publish that theory somewhere get it peer reviewed by your fellow UNIX users and atheists. write a book about it, make millions, get a noble prize. It's such a big achievement!

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    melporposted 13 years ago

    Consciousness and reality are basically the same thing. What we perceive through our five senses is our reality or consciousness. Both our perception of reality and our consciousness can be altered by losing one or two of your senses or by drug induced methods.

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       ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       absolutely.

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