Deception

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   SirDentposted 9 years ago

   A person who is deceived has no idea about it.  So how does one find out they are deceived?

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      oceansnsunsetsposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Good question!  One way they can know, or begin to know, is to see if they have any views they hold that don't "serve" them well.  Meaning, they are not always easily defended with fact, reason, logic, and morality.  If they keep getting frustrated by their held views, but can't seem to truly show why they are right in a legitimate manner, then they might be being deceived.
      
      Too many people look at life and views as a smorgasbord, to simply pick from at will, because of what they like.  As if all views are considered and created as equal.  But they simply aren't. 
      
      I truly think self deception lies in our views, how we think the world works or ought to work, and the humanity within that.  I am speaking of truth here.  Truth is the antidote to deception, and brings light and life to all that seek it.  Our feelings feel so big at times, but they aren't what should be used to weigh out truths of matters all the time.  Truth isn't always pleasant, like how medicine or going to the doctor to fix what is really wrong, isn't always pleasant.  The thing is, to live, you want and need experts sometimes, so you must go to doctors as needed.  We bite the bullet and do what is needed, or suffer the consequences. 
      
      There is no getting all that is wanted on a smorgasbord, AND not getting what comes with it.   People can say and do and believe in all kinds of things.  Then wonder what is wrong with others, and even blame others for their own, held choices, which turn out to be deceptions so often.  The frustration ought to be placed correctly, at the point of deception, or those perpetuating it, not at those trying to help. 
      
      Good and evil are very much tied in with truth and deception.  Since  most people esteem good, they want to make their deception look good to others as much as it looks good to them, and blame others for the woes that come with the deceptions.  So anyway, a good question, because we can all be deceived, and it can be battled with the truth, even if it doesn't always feel good. Patience is good too, in time there will be less deception, and the pain of it isn't forever.  I truly think and believe truth wins in the end, and deception will have to go.  Sorry for the long, rambling answer! Its a deep question though.

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         SirDentposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         "Truth is the antidote to deception, and brings light and life to all that seek it."
         
         I love that quote.  The only way to dispel lies is to show the truth.  The problem I see is, how do you get the one who is deceived to SEE the truth? 
         
         I believe most, if not all, who post in these forums do actually seek truth, but many are blind to the truth.    The Bible tells us that satan has blinded many to the truth.  Jesus called him the "father of lies" and even said, "The truth is not in him."
         
         Just as a person who is born blind needs to have their eyes opened to be able to see, the one who is deceived must come to know the truth in order to dispel the deception.

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            oceansnsunsetsposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you Sir Dent.  To your more difficult question, well that isn't so easy.
            
            I was thinking more in general, but if about God stuff, then God does part of that work.  I think its good to promote clarity on issues in discussion. For instance, truth of matters is often obscured, because people believe in and present or support untrue versions of things.  Knowingly or unknowingly, this happens all the time.
            
            We see a lot of straw man arguments for instance.  Disarming those faux arguments, are one good way to point a person to hopefully wanting to see the folly, or errors for the very reason you mention.  That hopefully, they DO want the truth, and DO want to seek that over the lies.  What point is there in believing lies about anything at all, ever?  Generally, people don't want it.  Our emotions and will get involved also of course. 
            
            The debates over religion and especially Christianity, happen for a very distinct reason.  I think a lot more is going on than  meets the eye.   One has to seek truth, and want it.  I think it will lead where it naturally will, because multiple things can't all be true at the same time. If people don't want it, and want something ELSE more than the truth, then they can have that too, and what comes with it.
            
            What people can't have, is all of it.  TO have all the good that comes with one view, but while holding and esteeming another and living and acting like its true.  It wouldn't make sense.  Its like expecting to squeeze grape juice from a rock.  Or some such crazy idea, not sure why that came to mind, lol.  Hope I am making sense. I agree with you, anyway.

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               SirDentposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               I think I understand what you mean.  As for "disarming those faux arguments," I will leave that to you and others who are much better at it than I am.  I will simply speak truth and let the chips fall where they may.
               
               Many of the debates here are simply attacks back and forth with one-liners meant to poke fun at one another.  There is hardly ever an honest discussion. 
               
               LOL, I can't squeeze grape juice from a rock but Moses got water from one.

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      kessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      It is impossible to show someone that they are in self deception.
      Because all you do is to show them an image of themselves and the eyes that see images are not the same ones that sees self.
      
      It is very easy for one to see their own selfdeception.
      
      When your own eyes sees your own imperfection and your own eyes sees your own hypocrisy, this tells you that you see in self deception.
      
      You know you are free from self deception when you know you are perfect and you have no hypocrisy.

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         mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Well, then, that ain't gonna happen.
         
         We can be sure of two things 1) we are all hypocrites in one way or another 2) we will never be free of hypocrisy in our material being.

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            kessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            It would be wiser for you to speak of yourself only.
            But I do note that you do accept that you are under self deception, which would allow others to accept your post for what it is.
            
            I just wished that you did allow room for your own escape.

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               mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               Thank you for your insight.  And thanks for proving my point.

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      bBereanposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      SirDent,
      
           Although not articulated in the OP, knowing you, I feel safe presuming your premise is regarding matters of eternal significance.  IMO, (which I contend to be biblical), everyone (barring disability) has been endowed with reason and conscience which when properly employed lead them to the truth. 
      
      There is a great deceiver, (referred to as the "god of this world"), who has worked relentlessly to put in place infrastructure, both physical and philosophical, for the express purpose of perpetuating any belief or narrative effective in confusing, misleading or deceiving folks in any manner required to keep them from accepting that truth.  After millennia of influence toward this end we find ourselves immersed in social, political and academic environments replete with deception promoting darkness as light. 
      
      Consider that this deceiver cares not which poison any individual will prefer, nor to what degree they will embrace it.  Many will mix cocktails from his menu, seeking a unique taste that suits their palette.  All that matters is they fall short of seeing their condition as sinners in need of salvation and coming to know and accept the only remedy. 
      
      Those he can't fool, he seeks to at least neutralize and silence.  It is important to note that in spite of the formidable opposition to truth each person faces, their aforementioned tools are sufficient to overcome.  Failing to do so requires they be complicit in their own deception, meaning they do not escape accountability. 
      
      We find little encouragement that once past a certain point of acceptance of the lie(s) folks will ever do anything but work harder toward it's propagation, presumably as a comfort that their mistake is anything but and that their folly bears merit.  We find ourselves at the latter end of an intense crescendo of said deception which in itself serves as a touchstone regarding our placement in time.

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         wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Well said!  Although there is no real need to hide The Great Deceiver - probably best to just go ahead and name it as the Church.
         
         Still promoting darkness as light, the Church has many offerings and some will mix cocktails from many Churches into what suits their palette.  Those that the Church can't fool it seeks to neutralize and silence.  Times past it was via death, not it is via the eternal cry of "Persecution!  You're persecuting me!".  It IS important to note that in spite of the formidable opposition to truth (nearly unlimited funding, signboards on every streetcorner and every pulpit blaring the same inane messages) the tools of reason and conscience can lead one to truth. 
         
         Quite true that once the Church's lies have been ingested folks often do little but proselytize, trying to suck others into the web of deception.  There is hope, though, as the Church's massive influence is slowly (far too slowly!) waning.  Constant vigilance is required as the supposed offering is great (eternal life of happiness) and we must always remember that "If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is".

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            bBereanposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Wilderness,
            
                 I genuinely appreciate your clever reply as it should appeal to a wide audience.  Salve on the ears of, or at very least entertainment for those in your camp, and yet very illustrative to those who would like to see how eloquently the obfuscation I was warning of can be deployed.
            
            Thank you.

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         SirDentposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         When addressing King Agrippa Paul quoted what he heard in the vision at his conversion, (Act 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.)
         
         We also know that Paul wrote later in 2nd Corinthians (4:3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:   4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. ) we see that the lost are blinded because satan has blinded them. 
         
         Jesus said, Man shall not live be bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.  It takes the Word of God to overcome deception, trials, temptations, etc. . .  We can conclude that the Word of God only can work to bring deceit into the light and show it for what it is.

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            bBereanposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
            
            Yes Satan is happy to take the ball and run with it.  He'll even coach the team or just provide encouragement, but each person must first give him the ball.  You can't put it all on him.

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   m abdullah javedposted 9 years ago

   Quite interesting DentSir. It all needs an attitude call 'empathy'. Actually its hard to realise one's pain. But you know when the relationship between the people develops on healthy line, this attitude become an ultimate result.

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      SirDentposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Maybe I need to rephrase.  A person born blind cannot see anything at all.  How can they be made to see?

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         wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         People cannot be "made" to see anything.  Only with hard work can they learn, can they discover what is deception and what is real.  As Oceansunsets points out so clearly, picking from a smorgasboard of beliefs is not hard and usually leads only to deception.  Feelings and wants are not useful tools to go beyond deception to truth.

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            God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Can you chalk out a systematic 'process' through which the screen before our eyes can be removed?

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               wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               The scientific method is probably the best tool for that that man has ever devised.  Complex, time consuming and requiring much effort, but better than anything other method we've devised for removing the screen and finding truth.

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                  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  That sounds like you trust everyone who have ever entered the subject of science professionally.

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                     wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     Do I think there are liars out there?  Of course there are, but that does not invalidate the usefulness of the process.  On the contrary, it expands the usefulness as part of it is re-testing by others, which weeds out the liars and frauds.
                     
                     But if you disagree, can you propose any other process that has anything like the record of the scientific method at producing verifiable truth?

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            SirDentposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            I am not sure what to say to this reply so I am just going to let myself ramble a little.
            
            Let's say you have a smorgasboard laid out with all types of food on it.  Some you like and some you don't like.  Which do you eat?  Of course, you will choose from the foods you like, even if they are very bad for you. 
            
            Let's now suppose there is one food that will give you long life and good health.  It is one of those foods you don't like.  Would you choose that food, even if you hated it?

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               wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               Sometimes I will, sometimes I won't - I eat salad even though I'm not generally a fan of it.  When I visit a buffet, I usually sample things I'm not familiar with, though.
               
               But a simple sign on the food platter, saying it is good for me, isn't enough to convince me that it should be eaten (remember the kool aid?).  And a sign absolutely promising total health forever WILL be ignored as nonsense.

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                  SirDentposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  You sound a lot like me.  I generally go for the foods I know I like but will sometimes try things I hadn't tried before. 
                  
                  
                  
                  I wasn't talking about a sign.  Some foods are naturally healthy and good for you to eat.  Most of the time we eat what we like no matter if it is healthy or not.  The point is, if there was a food that could give you good health always and a long life, would you eat it even if it didn't taste good. 
                  
                  I must also add that we are so used to sickness and death that we see it as part of a normal life.  It is hard to fathom a life with no sickness at all, even seasonal allergies.  The mind of man just simply can't grasp the concept of eternal life.

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         mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Your original question might be addressed (emphasis on might be) through reason and experience, but only in a vacuum.  We are what we are by a developmental process based on "gigo", garbage in, garbage out, therefore we are tainted from the start.  Any change here would have to come about by outside influence, outside being a pristine source.
         
         As to the second, the rephrase, it would appear the person must first understand what it means to "see" and it must then be proven it is important to them.  Acceptance of personal abilities may give one better "sight" than which the "real" world offers.  Again, the pristine source is needed.
         
         Love, empathy, affection, whatever word in this category one choses, must be the basis, the foundation for "sight," growth and learning.  Interestingly, some fields of endeavor demand an emotionless perspective.  Without love, they will not "see."
         
         (Not my best work but its a tough subject)

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            SirDentposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks for the reply.  I am running out of time at the moment and will see what comes to me later tonight.

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