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The Mosque Is Not About Religious Freedom

Updated on August 29, 2010
The Twin Towers on September 11, 2001
The Twin Towers on September 11, 2001

"As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances." —President Barack Obama

An Amazingly True Statement

Allow me to cut right to the chase, if you will, about this whole Mosque thing. This was, without question, a rather hot button topic from the start. But after remarks from President Barack Obama recently whereas he said, basically, Muslims can build a Mosque wherever they'd like to, thanks to religious freedom, the issue has gone front and center. And the heat is definitely ramping up. So much so, that we now have the president essentially waffling over his former statement, now saying that he wasn't necessarily commenting on whether or not he thought it was a wise choice to build a Mosque in a location near Ground Zero. Only that he was speaking directly on the issue of religious freedom.

The fact is that most people agree on the issue of the right to build the Mosque. Sure, we can build anything anywhere we'd like to so long as there are no laws or ordinances against it. And absolutely we can build a place of worship for any religion our hearts desire. Yes, it is a part of the Constitution of the United States, a document which most of us conservatives, if not all of us, hold as one of the most sacred documents in our country, second only to perhaps the Bible itself.

We cannot set aside our Constitution for any purpose. Nor should we have the slightest inkling of any desire to do so. I certainly can speak for myself in saying I have no interest whatsoever in walking over or around the Constitution.

The issue here is not about the right to build the Mosque. It's not at all about religious freedom. It is about tolerance for the sensitivities of Americans, and especially tolerance for the sensitivities of the families of the nearly 3,000 innocent, civilian Americans who died on September 11, 2001 when 19 radical Islamic terrorist Muslims chose to attack the United States, and target American lives in honor of Allah, and for the cause of Islamic Jihad.

Essentially, while it may not have been the Muslim faith as a whole, who declared war on the United States, it was a faction of the Muslim faith that certainly was behind the declaration of war against us. There is absolutely no question whatsoever about that fact.

While it's true that America is made up largely of a wide variety of religious beliefs—we are certainly not all Christians—our country is still primarily considered to be country of Christians, whose foundations in our laws, and in our culture, whose customs are certainly all based on Judeo-Christian philosophy.

That is who these people were fighting against. That is what is at the heart of their war against us, which despite the lack of recent attacks, is ongoing. On their soil we are infidels. In this world we are infidels. Non-believers of the Muslim faith, and we must be eradicated.

In a way that makes a Mosque near the location of Ground Zero the ultimate symbol of victory for the terrorists. And again, it erases any idea that building this Mosque is about freely pursuing one's religion.

This was an act of war. We need to be clear on that. September 11, 2001 is a day that will forever live in infamy. The site of that terrible attack which took so many lives, and shook our nation to the core, will forever be hallowed, and sacred ground. It should be a place which our enemies should never be able to congregate, for any purpose, nor under any circumstance. It should be a place which only symbolizes and embodies the true spirit of American pride, American courage, American liberty, and American resolve.

Yes. Religious freedom is very much a part of all of that, which is really the spirit of America. But so is a Mosque a part of who and what attacked the core of what we are as a people that fateful day, and for that reason alone, it cannot, and should not be built.

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    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 6 years ago from Wisconsin

      Americans like you disturb me, Micky, and I mean that in the nicest way possible. I simply do not trust Americans who do not trust Americans. It's as simple as that for me. Still, that said, I value the ability in this country to have an opinion, and certainly value your opinion, even if it disagrees with my own. So, therefore, your debate, and your ideology, however twisted I may think it to be, will always be welcome here.

    • Micky Dee profile image

      Micky Dee 7 years ago

      I have a different view of our history. I have a different belief in how those towers came down. You have a nice post that I can't comment on but could only change the subject and point toward one of the shoddiest investigations of this last hundred years, at least. Sorry folks. Those towers were imploded. I don't know what else happened - but those towers were imploded. AND - our government was negligent in preventing 911. Thanks.

    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Polly, I think in this country we've softened a little bit as a people. Not as a whole, but to a large extent we are more willing to cave on our personal convictions so as not to alienate the other side. In so doing, unfortunately, the folks who give it up lose more of their own stuff. I personally don't get it, but that's where we are.

    • Pollyannalana profile image

      Pollyannalana 7 years ago from US

      They outlawed Christianity from schools that our country was founded on, yet Muslims not only can worship in schools but have special rooms Christians are forced to help pay for. Maybe their rugs too I am not sure about that but it certainly would not surprise me. Why do we let things like this happen? We should all march and shout until they let Christianity back in or just have none if they want to be fair although our one 5 minute prayer doesn't compare to Muslims five times a day and as many have claimed pushing it to the limit.

    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Marisue, whether or not there was a Mosque there before to me matters little. There was the World Trade Center headquarters there too, and they're not rebuilding THAT. This Mosque is everything to do about Muslim victory, not building bridges. You say, "I think the opposition of this will only continue to deteriorate relationships." I think building it will do that. The mere talk of it has incited protest from better than 70% of Americans, and many of those are sensible Muslims who understand the nature of this location. Muslim's relationships with Americans has severely deteriorated since the Imam came out and told America what he planned to do.

      Hmrjmr1, I'm not so sure there's a money agenda for the radicals. These guys are after something else. As for the Mosque, I think the heart of its purpose lies in declaring victory.

    • Hmrjmr1 profile image

      Hmrjmr1 7 years ago from Georgia, USA

      Springboard - I'm in agreement with RTE on this and I would add that it is becoming more apparent daily this is not about religion it's about money, and the attempt to cloak their greed in Islam.

    • marisuewrites profile image

      marisuewrites 7 years ago from USA

      I'm in the middle...I wish they wouldn't build it there, however, there were Muslim Americans in the towers when they went down, and there were Mosques there in the months before, both towers I believe.

      I'm thinking we're all upset at the "in the face" part, they don't want to seem to be "giving in" to "us."

      I think the opposition of this will only continue to deteriorate relationships.

      We need to make sure any organization is not working against America, whatever that may mean, but I don't think all Muslim organizations are equal to risk by existing.

      To maintain freedom for all of us, there is always some risk. It's a tough situation. Calm thinking is needed.

    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Ooh. I LOVE that line. Awesome.

    • readytoescape profile image

      readytoescape 7 years ago from Central Florida

      Springboard,

      Great Hub, you are wholly correct that this Islamic center cannot be built, to do so is an affront to all those that were murdered on 9/11. This “center” has only one purpose just as it’s namesake in Spain was, 756 through 1031, a monument to Muslim victory over the infidel.

      I wrote a hub at the beginning of the controversy with a plan of exactly how to extinguish it. That hub can be summed up in this phrase,

      “Strong hands that heroically fought through the rumble in a search of survivors will not build a monument to their murder!”

    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      It's a conundrum easily avoided by the builders of the Mosque simply coming to the realization that their proposal will do nothing to support the cause they are aiming for. It's a matter of prudence on their part which is the issue here. I've said it before, I'm not for stopping the Mosque from being built. I'm for sensibilties and sensitivities to be prevailing factors in the decision not to build the Mosque.

    • bill yon profile image

      bill yon 7 years ago from sourcewall

      We are damned if we do and damned if we don't.If the mosque is built near ground zero then the terrorist will have a SYMBOLIC victory.If we stop the mosque from being built we violate the civil rights of american citizens who had nothing to do with 9/11.If we do that then we turn our backs on the constitution, and we open up the door for complete intolerance,and the terrorist will have a even bigger victory.

    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      EdG, I suggest whatever it is you are drinking, you stop immediately.

      American Tiger, you are a definite voice of reason. It was a joy to read your rational thought in amongst so much Kool-Aid stuff. Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts.

      Magnoliazz, it is certainly an impassioned topic. That's for sure. :)

      Fabrizio, what you suggest would also remove human intelligence which is at the root of both politics and religion. We think, therefore we are. A world of unitelligent, unthinking people would take all the fun out of being human in my opinion. The challenge is using our intelligence, ultimately, to avoid destroying ourselves.

    • profile image

      Fabrizio Van Marciano 7 years ago

      Politics and religion has done nothing but cause death, violence and destruction. It has done more harm than good. In my mind these two human created systems are viruses in the existence of our own existence within our scope of what we know. It only exists to keep us humans from loosing our minds... from asking the inevitable question... Why are we here? Remove politics and religion from your life and live a happy one at that. Love feels more fulfilling than hate a simple system that answers many questions, if there was software available to eliminate the religious and political virus, our world would be a haven.

    • magnoliazz profile image

      magnoliazz 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      This a great hub! And the comments are great too ....for both sides! It really gives one something to think about.

    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Rasman, I no more count the civilian casualties after the fact than I count American soldiers as additional victims of 911. Nor will I associate any casualties foreign or American with U.S. foreign policy. I don't consider that to be a denial of the faults America, like any country, may have. As to your conservative claim, you certainly don't sound like a conservative to me, but then that's not for me to decide overall.

      As for the dead horse, obviously this an issue we'll never agree on, but I look forward to finding another issue which we'll surely be able to agree on. On the anti-American comment, perhaps that WAS a bit unfair, still I cannot deny hearing a lot of anti-American sentiment in your tone. It's definitely there, at least from my perspective. I can, of course, be wrong.

    • profile image

      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @American Tiger: Sorry, my responsive was oblique. You referred to the Crusades as a defensive action, and then spoke of Constantinople. I observed that Constantinople was not in France or England, implying that it was too far away for its invasion to be a strictly defensive action. This has nothing to do with the Crusades being religiously sanctioned, but the liberation of Jerusalem did. Obviously you disagree.

      You do make good points. I need to think about them before replying further.

    • profile image

      American Tiger 7 years ago

      Chasuk, I'm always willing to look at factual information, especially if it's counter to that which I've based an opinion on. I AM curious how Constantinople not being in France or England -a fact none will question- imputes the Crusades to be "religiously sanctioned campaigns." Further: How does "sanctioned" magically become Christian Aggression?

      Men of any faith are wont to say "God is on our side." That is in no way cause to say they meant "God told us to go to war." In all the translated correspondence I've read of the 4 major Crusades, not a word was spoken on "changing the heathen's religion." These were all deeply religious men, to be sure, but they were motivated by saving the lives of Christians being pillaged by Saracens (Muslims) in cities like Antioch, Edessa, Constantinople and Jerusalem.

      Again, not a damned word about "changing the heathen's religion," nor were any of the cities they freed of Muslim build or origin. They were all non-Muslim cities and City-States that had been overrun by the "Saracen hoards". The people of those cities had been asking for Northern help for years, before action was taken.

      I might also like to note that all those beautiful Byzantine Mosques that Islam likes to claim it built, were the design and work of slaves taken from Byzantium. Architects and skilled craftsmen forced into slavery instead of killed outright for not accepting Islam as their religion.

      When someone says "What about the Crusades" if an effort to point out Christian Aggression, I don't know weather to laugh harder about their complete lack of historical context, or that the only point they hope to make is over 800 years old.

    • profile image

      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @American Tiger: You spout a lot of misinformation here, but I don't currently have the time to refute all of it.

      However, about the Crusades...

      The Crusades were unarguably religiously sanctioned campaigns. Their original purpose was the liberation of Jerusalem. They were both defensive and offensive, as are most wars. Philip II (of France) and Richard the Lionheart (of England) both fought in the Crusades. Notably, Constantinople was not in France or England.

    • profile image

      American Tiger 7 years ago

      Damn. Sorry I found this Hub so late in the game, Springboard. LOVE the Hub, and enjoyed a great many of the comments.

      Of course we've heard the "What about the Crusades" question, which is always spoken by those with little understanding of history. The Crusades were a DEFENSIVE action fought against an invasionary force of Muslims who had been sacking largely Christian cities like Constantinople. Not one word in the letters written by the men who proposed and financed them, about religion or faith.

      We also heard the obligatory "Timothy McVeigh was a Conservative Christian" fantasy. He was a liberal, animal rights, environmentalist whack-job of the first order. He hated conservatives and capitalism.

      Then the KKK is brought up as "Christian Terrorists." The KKK was a DEMOCRAT sponsored, political terrorist organization, which practiced domestic terrorism while hiding behind Christianity. Christians all across America denounced them as vile and reprehensible. Still do. Nor did the KKK seek to "make the world KKK." Which is the clear and open goal of Islam.

      Of the 1.5 BILLION Muslims around the world, how many are currently, actively, denouncing Islamic Terrorism? You can't even get a Muslim Student Association to denounce Hamas. I can walk into any Catholic church in the world right now, and find millions of parishioners who will gladly and publicly demand the trial and sentencing of any Priest who has harmed a child. And I'm not even CLOSE to Catholic.

      All the "Havoc" which America has wreaked on the Muslim World is to supply it with the means and opportunity to make itself filthy rich on petro-dollars. Left to their own, questionably "peaceful" ways, they would still be locked into 6th Century AD practices and technologies.

      Jihad is a hard word to translate out of Koranic Arabic. There is no direct translative word in virtually any currently used language on Earth. The Warlord mentality of their first prophet, and their many written directives to "spread Islam by the sword" speak to the very heart of the issue.

      The men who killed over 3000 American Citizens on 9/11/01 were not "hiding" behind poorly translated, not-currently-used-or-widely-accepted verses from the Koran. They were striking a blow against the Great Satan, and celebrated the world over by their Muslim Brothers, who read the same verses they did, and applauded their actions.

      Cordoba House is just another step in the global domination Psy-Ops plan of a long-term-thinking strategical enemy. Bin Laden will be happy either way, mosque built or no. It will be spun, to those who hate that America can even HAVE conversations of this nature, as either evidence of our weakness, or evidence of our disunity.

      From the moment that build-site was denied Historical Landmark status and simply declared "private property," the die have been cast. If we allow it to be built "America is so stupid they let us build a Shrine to their defeat!" If we stop it from being built "Americans hate all Islam, and killing them is just and right."

      If you don't think we're in a war for our very way of life, you're guilty of refusing to learn the lessons of History. Wasn't there a saying about how that makes you doomed, on some issue or other?

      Voted Up and Awesome, Springboard. Keep On Hubbin!

    • Rasman1 profile image

      Rasman1 7 years ago from Tucson, Arizona

      @ EdG HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

    • EdG. profile image

      EdG. 7 years ago

      First of all, The United States was not founded based on "Judeo-Christian philosophy." I am surprised that this would even be suggested in an article that has a link to a Pat Condell video.

      And second, while I agree that it is in rather poor taste to build a mosque so close to ground zero, only a truly dimwitted ignoramus would ever equate the average American Muslim with the fundamentalists responsible for 9/11.

      If this was a country of rational human beings we would just ignore the damn thing altogether. It's obviously not a security threat and what use is a symbol if nobody looks at it? But of course people can't help but look, they can't help but get indignant because they are too ignorant to realize that it is their own reaction that represents the victory of the terrorists. When we become hostile and overly sensitive about petty occurrences like these, the terrorists have won. They have made us uncomfortable and paranoid in our own homes.

      Ground zero hasn't become a monument to American spirit and resolve, not yet. It's still exactly what the terrorists meant for it to be, a festering wound that America can't bring itself to sew shut.

      And let's not forget that the U.S. has been wreaking havoc in the Muslim world for decades. They've had a much worse time of it than us. And, while that is not directly related to the issue at hand, if you can't suck it up over this minor incident then you are, to be blunt, a complete pussy. If there's one thing that is anti-American, it's being a pussy. And when hurt feelings come before the ideals of the constitution, that's a sad indication that "pussy" has become a majority demographic.

    • Rasman1 profile image

      Rasman1 7 years ago from Tucson, Arizona

      Springboard, I am no where near anti-American. Most of my Family served even my uncles that are Muslim so get off it with the conservative talking points. It is not Anti-American to point out that America has killed many more Muslims than they killed Americans. You try to deny this truth look it up thank god for the internet. It is American to point our faults dude. Truthfully I am not an Iraqi so if Saddam Killed millions of his own then what the hell does that have do with me and my point? I am an American. Why is it that when Americans disagree with conservatives they call us Anti-American. Will you even answer my question. Probably not cause most Fake conservatives do not. I will ask anyway. How many muslims have the US killed or wounded? Not the terrorist Killers I am glad we killed many of them but innocent civilians? Do you believe we have killed or wounded less than those those murdered on 9/11?

      Ok you are right though about the horse I can't tell neither. Made me laugh pretty good. Spring Board I am a true Conservative and have gotten disenfranchised over the current so called conservative movement. Republicans have forgotten our roots. I agree about the round and round. Your hub has become one hell of a merry go round.

      Keep up the good writing man I really enjoyed it even with your anti-American insult. Especially your hub on the Black Panthers.

    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      To me it doesn't matter. The history of Mosques and why they are built in certain places matters. We can go round and round on the entire issue and we'll still end up in the same place.

    • profile image

      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @Springboard: Yes. What the Great Mosque represents is significant. Did you miss the part that it is a Christian cathedral, and not a mosque? Did you miss the part that it represents peace and tolerance? I'll state it bluntly: Anyone who tells you otherwise is unacquainted with historical fact, or lying in the pursuit of their own agenda.

    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Great history lesson Chasuk. Still, what Cordoba, also known as the Great Mosque of Cordoba represents is what is significant.

      Vocalcoach, and on this one that's quite a task, reading the comments. This hub definitely opened up a can of worms. :)

      Kyle246, thanks, and thanks for stopping by.

      Delores, sure we can go ahead and call it a community center. Yes, that's what they've been alluding to. We'll build a KKK cultural center and put in ferris wheels and bumper cars. We'll put a Nazi cultural center in the middle of Israel and have Whack-A-Mole machines and big animated animals dancing and singing while kids eat pizza...

      It's what's beneath the surface that counts. It's what's between the lines that counts. They think we're stupid. Let's not let them prove it. If you want to really build a bridge, and you want to make it a cultural center for anything, make it be an American cultural center which honors the CULTURE of America being full of MANY religions...you don't build a cultural center for the religion who attacked us only and call it a bridge.

    • Dolores Monet profile image

      Dolores Monet 7 years ago from East Coast, United States

      Springboard - I thought the whole idea of building a Mosque at Ground Zero was just stupid when I first heard about it. But now I hear that it is a community center with swimming pools, etc. sort of like a YMCA for Muslims. And, it's 2 blocks away from, not on Ground Zero. And the other thing is that it was a foreign entity who bombed NYC, not Americans. A lot of Muslim people come to the US because of the freedoms that we offer. They wish to leave their intolerant countries behind. There are many confusing sides to this issue.

    • Kyle246 profile image

      Kyle246 7 years ago from United States

      That was a great hub. I like your point of view.

    • vocalcoach profile image

      Audrey Hunt 7 years ago from Nashville Tn.

      What a fantastic hub! And I read most of the comments which are equally interesting and thought provoking. Thanks.

    • profile image

      Chasuk 7 years ago

      Cordoba isn't a mosque. Cordoba is a province in Spain, and the capital of that province.

      We know virtually nothing of the pagan (pre-Christian) history of Spain, but Christians have not always been there. Do you imagine that the pagans went peacefully?

      Did the Christians sack existing pagan temples? Yes. Was this repeated hundreds of times across the planet? Yes. Were these replacement structures "victory" churches and cathedrals? Almost certainly.

      Did Islam usurp Christianity in Spain, erecting mosques over churches and cathedrals? Yes. Were these replacement structures "victory" mosques? Almost certainly.

      The Great Mosque of Cordoba is a Christian cathedral, not a mosque. This cathedral was built over the site of a mosque, which was built over the site of an Arian (non-trinitarian, nothing to do with Aryan racial theology) church, which was built over the site of a pagan temple.

      But all of this usurpation of holy ground is irrelevant. These were invaders. The bulk of Christianity threw their forces against Spanish pagans. The bulk of Islam threw their forces against Spanish Christians. The bulk of Christianity eventually fought back.

      The bulk of Islam does not approve of the 9/11 attacks, despite the dishonest representations of the media. Islam has been a whipping boy of the Christian West since before the Crusades. If mass media had existed then, the reports would have been the same. Violence and villainy sells.

      During Islam's rule of Spain, Moses Maimonides was born in Cordoba. Maimonides was one of the most important rabbinic interpreters in Jewish history. Yet he lived and flourished in Islamic Spain.

      How was this possible? It was possible because Islam ensured that Spain was peaceful and tolerant towards the Jews. That's what the name Cordoba celebrates, not victory over Christianity or the West.

    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Barbara, that would make the most sense considering everything we know about the sentiment of the majority. It's what helps to make the entire issue of WHY HERE? so puzzling. Many Americans who are for the Mosque simply see things as black and white. They are unable to see the forest for the trees, or read between the lines.

      Yankee, this one certainly is about victory. I just can't see any other reason to put it where they want to put it.

      Chasuk, I would agree that not every Mosque is a victory Mosque. However, your comment misses the point that Mosque's like this one have been erected in places where Muslims conquered another religion's house of worship. Cordoba is a teeming example, which was built on top of a Christian church. Cordoba is a victory Mosque. The Mosque near Ground Zero is to be called Cordoba. Considering the Imam's statements since 911, the reality of the Mosque seems very clear to me, and thankfully, to a good portion of that 70% who oppose it.

      Pandora, before you make such a claim I suggest you read some of my other hubs. I don't close my eyes to the facts. Most liberals do. And I DO absolutely believe that the liberal viewpoint of America is not in line with American values. I will stand by what I said.

    • profile image

      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @Pandora: Thank you kindly. I'm not as patient as I seem, but I try. Anger is counterproductive in debate, so I curtail it whenever I can.

    • profile image

      Pandora 7 years ago

      "the simplest answer to your question why do liberals always support any side that is not American or Patriotic? is that liberals are anti-America. I can see no other explanation. For whatever reason they hate America." -springboard

      Well springboard when you say dumb stuff like that, you lose all credibility as far as having any kind of a brain goes.

      Chasuk - you have the patience of a saint, as the saying goes. And of course you are 100% correct in all you've said here.

    • profile image

      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @yankeeintexas: Every location that Muslims build a mosque is a sign of victory?

      You are grievously misinformed.

    • yankeeintexas profile image

      yankeeintexas 7 years ago from Lubbock, Texas

      We need to look at Isalmic history and realize that everyplace that the built a Mosque was a sign of victory! If a Mosque was built on Ground Zero that is how the followers of Bin Ladin would see it as, a victory!

    • Barbara Kay profile image

      Barbara Badder 7 years ago from USA

      I would think this would be the last place they would want to build. I agree with your hub.

    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Jimmy, I'm not for banning anyone in this country, and certainly not religions, even if they are disguised. But I understand the gist of your point, and generally agree with most of it.

      Ladyjane, those same ugly scenes of Muslims dancing in the streets as those buildings came down would be replayed as the ribbon would be cut and the doors to the Mosque so close by to Ground Zero would be opened wide. Victory. That is exactly what this is about. No argument made will ever convince me otherwise.

      Farhaan, very true. But tell me how well a Nazi installation would go over smack dab in the middle of Israel? It's common sense. Maybe there are good Nazi's out there. There most definitely are good Muslims out there. And any of them can be who they are away from the places where the bad people have done some very bad things. Ground Zero is one of those places. Sensible Muslims should have the common sense to understand that building a Mosque in such a place is simply a very bad idea for very obvious reasons that even a two year old could understand.

      Mighty Mom, nope. I am actually an atheist, or something very close to one. I only point out that Judeo-Christian philosophy is at the heart of the foundation of this country, its customs, its laws, and its people. I may not believe in the Bible. I may not believe in God. But I do believe in my country. And I am a patriot. And therefore I have no other choice but to be true and faithful to what this country is founded on, and understand that THAT is the very thing those 19 Muslim terrorists, and the radical Islamists, were out to destroy at its core. It's not about religion. But there IS a religious context. That was my point. Not to argue against the Constitution, but rather to use our good sense and best judgement to determine when some things are simply wrong, even if we have the right. Obviously this is not for us necessarily to decide. I'm not saying the government should stop the Mosque being built, and I don't even want the government to do that BECAUSE of the Constitution.

      The Muslims need to use their heads. This Imam, for all his genious, should be able to clearly articulate in his mind what this Mosque means NOT TO HIM and the Muslims, but to the American people.

    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      J. Dizzle, with that bit of comparisons I believe you have swung wildly at the air. The ball is in the catcher's mitt already and you're still swinging away like it'll get to the end of your bat any minute. :)

      For the record, this argument hasn't a thing to do with religion. Though there IS a religious context. But it's not the focus. We need to be clear in making that distinction when we argue about the Mosque issue.

      Rasman, if you are going to make such a comparison, "our mid east policies is responsible for more than 100,000 deaths of Muslims than the 3,000 Americans and other countries citizens killed in 9/11," then I don't want you to leave out the millions of Kurds Suddam Hussein had put to death. We are comparing apples to oranges again, and frankly I find that statement anti-American and right out of the mouth of the Imam himself. Disgraceful. But I'm glad you found that even if you disagreed with most of anything I've said here, I at least made sense. For whatever that's worth, I'll take it. Beating a dead horse? Yeah, we beat it so bad at this point it's hard to know if it ever was a horse at all.

    • Mighty Mom profile image

      Susan Reid 7 years ago from Where Left is Right, CA

      This is a very well written hub. But you've tipped your hand with this very telling statement: "Yes, it is a part of the Constitution of the United States, a document which most of us conservatives, if not all of us, hold as one of the most sacred documents in our country, second only to perhaps the Bible itself."

      So you admit you ARE speaking from the standpoint of religion -- otherwise you would not mention the Bible.

      If you truly held the tenets of the Constitution sacred you would recognize that this IS a freedom of religion issue...

      But I'm not here to argue that building a mosque within 3, 25 or even 100 blocks of Ground Zero is a good idea. On that score, I'm with President Obama. Just because they have the right (guaranteed under our Constitution) to do so doesn't mean it's the right (good, smart, wise, appropriate) thing to do.

      It's clear from the public's reaction that America is still, understandably, angry and hurting from 9/11. The healing will take time, and this proposed project (and even more so, the media FRENZY surrounding it) have ripped the scab off.

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      Farhaan 7 years ago

      I am a Muslim. Talking about 9/11 its is the worst thing happened in my life. I believe those involved in it were not Humans. They were Beast. Killing a Innocent person is like killing whole humanity. I am against it. If a Individual commits a sin, we cant blame whole mankind or religion. Let me give an example. Hitler Killed many Jews but no one can say all Christians are same. There are people like Mother Teresa, Abraham Linchon, Thomas Edison, Who spend their life to serve humanity. My openion is, A Individual cannot be the mascot of the community, religion or mankind. takin abt Mosque on ground zero. if the Christian brothers feel offended about that its better to build it somewhere else. becoz If you take care of the sentiments of other people its good deed infront of Almighty. Thats what i believe. If anyone has got any regrets Kindly let me know at

      farhaan.shakeel@gmail.com

      Thanking you all

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      ladyjane1 7 years ago from Texas

      Springboard I agree with you about this mosque should not be built so close to ground zero and when I think of 911 I am reminded of the images that we saw on our television sets of a people in the middle east celebrating in the streets because Americans were dead. I cant believe that they were all "terrorist" but they certainly rejoiced in the fact that some Americans were dead. How could they be happy about that? Even though these terrorist have done this to us I don't get a thrill when I hear of masses of people in Iraq dieing in a bomb blast, so it bothers me terribly that they celebrate when America is hit and because of that it should give us pause when they want to build a mosque close to ground zero. And I agree that they should be able to build a mosque wherever EXCEPT THERE! Just the fact that this is causing so much heartburn with Americans should make everyone think twice about building because it is going to lead to violence close to that site I can just see it now. Congrats on this hub it was brilliant. Cheers.

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      Jimmy Jones 7 years ago

      I agree with all you said, except, I disagree with allowing radical groups disguised as 'religious' groups in this country. Just because they say God, does not make them or give them rights under our Constitution.

      Can religious groups believing in human sacrifice be allowed? Nope

      Neither can, nor should, Islamic beliefs. These guys have vowed the destruction of all but their faith. Based on protection alone we should not allow them here.

      The old saying about if we fail to heed the warning of history, we are doomed to repeat it is sooo true.

      As to faith, religions and history...well... How about Solomon in the Old Testament. Solomon, the Great Wise King, allowed each of His 1000+ wives to bring their "religion" into Israel, The Bible says Israelite were worshiping everything but the True God.

      BTW, Take a Bible into their country see what happens. Open a church in their country and see what happens. These guys will not 'love' us if we show them our backside, they will only put a sword in it ! JJ :)

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      Rasman1 7 years ago from Tucson, Arizona

      Springboard, For once throughout your hub you actually made sense. I still disagree. I believe forcing them to move the Islamic Center is aiding the Enemy and that it sends a message to Muslim Americans that your religion is not welcomed. Muslims are victims of the crazy radicals. More Muslim blood has been spilled by the radicals than 9/11. The wars, the sanctions, our mid east policies is responsible for more than 100,000 deaths of Muslims than the 3,000 Americans and other countries citizens killed in 9/11. Great hub I think by now everyone on here is beating a dead horse. This is what is so great about America and I love my country. My Muslim family members love this country and they hate the fact that radicals have defined their faith.

      I must say that I wish that those people that live Islam speak much louder against the radicals because the radicals have controlled the debate about rather Islam is peaceful or evil. I have a Quran and have concluded that it is really all Old testament scripture.

      Private property, is private property and to tell an American Citizen they are not allowed to build whatever they want on the Property they own is against our values and slaps freedom in the face.

      http://mediamatters.org/research/201008240027

      I did some research om Feisal Abdul Rauf. I don't believe he is a radical in any sense. Without the Right Wing rhetoric and reading about him for what he has done for the US shows he is on our side and that he is against the radical elements of Islam like I hope you are against the radical elements of Christianity. President Bush believed in this man and because of that I believe Bush was right and made a good decision when he decided to be advised by this Imam. We need to focus our anger and criticism on the radical crazy murders that claim themselves to be Muslim. ALLAH means GOD in English just like Yahew means GOD and Jehovah means GOD.

      Allah Akbar!!!! meaning "God is Great" and GOD is great. He has blessed all of us. So give thanks and praise. Honor Him and Honor the Christ Jesus. For only he can judge and will give wisdom to mankind.

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      J.Dizzle 7 years ago

      Dchosen_01: Your comment is the exact problem. By your logic I should hate all Mexicans for killing one of my best friends and I should hate all blacks for killing one of my other best friends. They were probably Christians too so I should hate them too. The KKK claims to be Christian yet the don't like Catholics who are Christians. They also kill black people yet I don't see black people hating Christians because of a small group of extemists. Do blacks protest a church being built that has the same religion as the KKK? Muslims are using the constituiton to their advantage just like all the different Christian denominations have been doing for over 200 years. It's no different then people using the freedom of speech to their own advantage.

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      J.Dizzle 7 years ago

      Did anybody ever think that the idea of building a Mosque near ground zero is a test? If I were a Muslim I wouldn't think of building a mosque near ground zero because of this exact situation. It seems most Americans think Muslim first then terrorist. America goes to the Middle East trying to use them for oil and push our Democracy and Christian beliefs on them. Yet when they come here to the land of the free they are criticized for wanting the freedoms Americans brag about. If you ever listened to what Bin Laden said in his rants he is angry at these sort of things. I'm not saying he is right but when you start hating on people becaue they are Muslim then you only strengthen his BS. That is the test! If America starts turning into Nazi Germany and making exceptions to the Constitution then they are winning the battle. When our government takes away freedom of religion they may take away our free speech, our guns, and any other freedom. When does it stop? We will be fighting another revolution against each other while the extreme Muslims laugh at us and take advantage of our situation. We have religious freedom so no matter how insensitive they may be, they still have the right. The constitution doesn't say freedom of Christian religions. It doesn't say excluding Islam. If you want government to control religion move. I hear China is pretty good a good place for that.

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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      The polls show that the same majority of Americans who oppose the Mosque also SUPPORT freedom of religion. You can count me in that camp as well. What is the issue here is NOT religious freedom. Hence, the title of this hub. Here is what I wrote in my commentary, "The issue here is not about the right to build the Mosque. It's not at all about religious freedom. It is about tolerance for the sensitivities of Americans, and especially tolerance for the sensitivities of the families of the nearly 3,000 innocent, civilian Americans who died on September 11, 2001 when 19 radical Islamic terrorist Muslims chose to attack the United States, and target American lives in honor of Allah, and for the cause of Islamic Jihad."

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      Skippy 7 years ago

      What most people do not look at or think about is this law of freedom of religion. It was brought to this country and the law enforced by whom? What religion was that? What were these men thinking that gave this freedom? We all know that answer, or should, but like everything else in the government, they choose to overlook these things, as do many people.

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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Rasman, I appreciate your examples of other Mosques that have perhaps been targeted. Still, they are not representative, nor entirely related to what we are discussing here. There are radicals in all sects of society. One or two guys, or even a posse decide they don't like the Muslims and a Mosque gets burned down is not quite the same thing as what we're talking about here. This is a place where 3,000 innocent Americans lost their lives, under attack. This Mosque is also opposed by the majority...none of the other Mosques were. Most of us who think the Mosque at Ground Zero is insensitive do not oppose Mosques anywhere else. So this is not about Muslims. This is not about religion. It's not about religious freedom. It's about 911, and all of the aspects of that day, INCLUDING radical Islam. We need to be sure to make these distinctions.

      You asked, "Please explain the sensibility thing. I mean are you saying it is bad to build because they are muslims? I don't understand. Is this Islamic center a radical center? Do you Believe that all Muslims are radicals crazy extremest?"

      All I can say to that is to read some of the comments I made back to some of the other commenters on this thread, and that will answer all of those questions. The short answer is no to all of them.

      While you're at it, do a little research on the man BEHIND the Mosque. Explore comments made by his wife, and then ask yourself what you think might be the real underlying purpose for the Mosque.

      Any sensible Muslim would understand that building a Mosque so close to the place where 3,000 Americans died in an act of war BY a radical faction of their faith, is just NOT a good idea by any standard of reason.

      As to not censoring comments? I would never do that. Like I said before, everyone is entitled to an opinion. And whether or not it agrees with mine, well...

      The only comments that would likely get deleted, if I were to delete any, would be those which state their opinions in a way that is mean-spirited. As for the Glenn Beck rally, I think he was right to ban the signs. In an event like this I think it's okay to say, "Listen to what I have to say. When it's done, we can all discuss the points I've made. But hear the message before you decide what the message is that SHOULD be heard."

      It would be sort of like coming in here, reading the title, and then commenting on the title rather than reading the hub to learn what I meant by it. Sometimes people don't want to know all the details...some of those guys with the signs are a lot like that.

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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Mwatkins, that's exactly what I think anything near Ground Zero with any religious association ought to be. Again, if it's truly a bride the Imam wants to create, this is the kind of center he should be building.

      Chrys, thanks, and thanks for stopping by.

      AntiDolt, I WAS speaking to you. Hmmm. Maybe my wording came off wrong. I was agreeing with what you said, and offered an additional anecdote. As to the abolishment of all organized religions, I think that may be a bit extreme, and I AM an atheist. Well, of sorts. It's difficult to explain. You'd have to read my "Religion Is Not Necessary" hub in order to understand. :)

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      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @J.Dizzle: You make many excellent points. Thank you.

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      J.Dizzle 7 years ago

      Those of you that say we should build a Church in a Muslim country are comparing apples to watermelons. We live in a free country and all we as Americans talk about is our freedom. We are proud to be free. It's ok to be free to carry a gun. It's ok to be have free speech, freedom of press, and all other freedoms except religion. That's where people seem to ignore our freedoms. I have ancestors that left Europe because they weren't the right kind of Christians and their kind were being killed. Christians killing Christians! They came here for religious freedom. I America we have that freesdom, they don't have that in most Muslim countries. So to say you want to build a Church in Mecca is not even close to fair comparison. If you want to argue that Muslim countries are less tolerante of Christians then you have a point but to say if they can do it why can't we makes you just like the people you are against. So if they are wrong then so are you.

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      J.Dizzle 7 years ago

      Whoever said that Christians have never ever done something as bad as 9/11 must not know much about history. Christians had something to do with the inquisition didn't they? Weren't the colonist Christians? How many Native Americans died by their hands? Timothy McVeigh was a Convervative Christian and yet people wouldn't complain about a church being built in the area of the Murrah Federal Building would they? People didn't protest Churches being built because of McVeigh did they? Muslims didn't attack the US, crazy Muslims attacked the US. Just like McVeigh was a crazy Christian. I grew up with Muslims and they actually sent their kid who was my best friend to a Christian School. If the people building this Mosque came out and said they were doing it to be insensitive then I wouldn't like the idea but since I don't know what they are thinking then I can't be upset with them building it. As for who is funding the mosque, from what I have seen and read it is a Saudi. He is the Saudi that apparently owns a chunck of the company that owns Fox News and he used to hang out with Gearge Bush at his ranch in Texas. Ironic that the station that is most upset about the Mosque is the one that is partially owned by the "bad guy muslim" that's funding the Mosque. We have freedom of religion in this country so you may not like the idea of the mosque but they have as much right as a Christian, Jew, or anyone else that want to open a religous building. If you think the government should stop the Mosque then don't complain when they take away your guns, your free speech, or any other time "big government" gets involved. You can't have it both ways. Plus singling out Muslims will only strengthen the stance of the extreme Muslims. By preventing their religious freedom you are recruiting the next wave of attackers.

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      Chelsea Hoffman 7 years ago from Las Vegas

      oi... well, I support the mosque. Guess I'm a horrible person now huh lol. oh well.

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      Chasuk 7 years ago

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      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @Anti-Dolt: You really should learn to read before you respond. Nothing in your most recent reply remotely pertains to anything that I have yet said in these comments.

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      Rasman1 7 years ago from Tucson, Arizona

      SpringBoard Thanks you for not censoring me like they censored the patrons of the Glenn Beck Rally by not allowing people to bring signs that express their thoughts and Freedom of speech.

      Back to the point There was a mosque in TN burned to the ground. There is a mosque in California under attack. In Kentucky another mosque being denied built is under attack. Your statement "There are Mosques all over the country, and not one of them is controversial. It is ALL ABOUT Ground Zero, 911, and Radical Islam." is false.

      Please explain the sensibility thing. I mean are you saying it is bad to build because they are muslims? I don't understand. Is this Islamic center a radical center? Do you Believe that all Muslims are radicals crazy extremest? I ask because there was time when people felt that desegregating schools was an attack on there sensibilities. If you believed that all black people were ignorant and bad then your sensibilities would have been under attack. What about the Mosque that has been there for the last 4 decades do they need to move it too. You can't say all Muslims are not radicals then deny them a place of worship wherever they want it.

      I believe in America as a great nation and the light to the world. We as a society are supposed to be more advanced than all other societies in the world. It sucks that those that bombed the world trade center were claimed to follow Islam. It also sucks that the KKK claimed themselves to be Christians and in the name of Jesus hung and lynched many black Americans. It sucks that Tim Mcviegh claimed himself christian and blew up the federal building and it sucks that Catholic priest rape children. Yet no one is claiming that Christians are radicals and should not build churches where ever they want, or that Catholics should move any church near an elementary school. Would you advocate for that if not then why?

      Ali Soufan, reputed to be the FBI’s most skillful terrorist interrogator after the Sept. 11 attacks, asserted Wednesday that opposition to building a mosque near Ground Zero is helping al-Qaeda. There are many reasons for supporting the Muslim community's right to build a cultural center and mosque on private property, not least of all the First Amendment of the Constitution guaranteeing freedom of religion,” wrote Soufan, a supervisory special agent with the bureau from 1997 to 2005, in an essay for Forbes and published online Wednesday.

      “But from a national security perspective, our leaders need to understand that no one is likely to be happier with the opposition to building a mosque than Osama Bin Laden. His next video script has just written itself.”

      http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/08/mo...

      I say we cannot give these murders anymore ammo to create more murders. We cannot allow them to make our own Muslim Americans feel as if they are not accepted in our society. PROTECT THE FIRST AMENDMENT!

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      Anti-Dolt 7 years ago

      @Chasuk: The world doesn't advance with stupid steps like you promote, and by building a Mosque at the "ground zero" site is moving backwards my little hombre. Hmm, I believe you must endear things in reverse, instead... Maybe you get off on watching the toilet spiral backwards, depending on your geographic location, as well?

      @Springboard: Man, I hope you're not talking to me. I already know they wouldn't let us get away with it and I sure-as-fu*k know about their stand on "religious freedom." That's why I said what I said. ...Maybe you were talking to the crowd or something, but let me just say, if I had it my way, all "organized religions" would be abolished from the face of this earth, and I would announce that Kindergarten class is over, if I had it my way. Our existence is way more diverse than these cartoon firgures that would be better depicted if drawn with crayons. Just think, I say these things and I'm not an atheist, either...

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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Anti-Dolt, they'd never in a million years let us get away with that. Not in a million, man. BTW, should I point out that there is no religious freedom in most Muslim countries? You are either a Muslim or you are an infidel, and part of Sharia law says if you are an infidel, you are as good as dead.

      BG, while I agree with the premise of your argument, contextually it is wrong IMO. Though, I do respect your opinion—just want to point that out. I say this especially with regard to your 'evil Jews' argument. The Germans were not attacked by the Jews. The Jews WERE attacked by the Nazis. What do you think, if all of a sudden Nazis came around and said, "We're a different group of Nazis than the one's who took you to those gas showers, and we want you to know we're good people," and wanted to build a Nazi cultural center somewhere in Jerusalem. How well do you think that would go over? Granted the Nazi party is not a religion, but the gist of the idea of things is the same.

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      chrysstil 7 years ago

      This is my opinion too.

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      mwatkins 7 years ago from Portland, Oregon & Vancouver BC

      Most excellent Springboard! I applaud your willingness to write this hub. Love your points! Completely agree with your assessment!

      What needs to be done is to make a Spiritual Home for ALL beliefs.

      Religion is NOT spirituality.

      My heart goes out to all who lost a loved one on September 11 and I'm sure that NOT every one of the people who lost their lives belonged to a mosque.

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      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @BGollihue: I agree with you 100%, of course.

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      BGollihue 7 years ago from Orlando, Florida

      I have to completely disagree with this hub. While I respect your opinion, it's a very dangerous and slippery slope that you're on. I can imagine conversations a lot like this taking place in Germany in the 1930s concerning the "evil Jews".

      I did my time in the Army, and one of the things you learn real quick once you're overseas in these middle eastern countries where religious tolerance is little more than a punchline, is just how important the constitution is. For better or worse.

      "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" ~ Voltaire.

      "America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating, at the top of his lungs, that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free, then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest." Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free."

      ~ Aaron Sorkin

      "The American President"

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      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @Anti-Dolt: The world would not have advanced very far if we all waited for everyone else to take the first step.

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      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @Dchosen_01: No, if a terrorist killed my family in Buddha's name, all Buddhists would NOT become my enemy. You have made my point precisely.

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      Anti-Dolt 7 years ago

      I got an easy test for this so-called "religious freedom" hogwash: Lets go to the "Heart of Muslim Territory" and build a Church of Christ or some other symbolic gesture of a token...smack-dab beside one of their areas of worship and lets see how friendly they respond to the "Americans" and/or what happens afterwards. Yeah, whatever. There should be no fu*kin' Mosque built near ground zero, for more reasons than one!!!

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      Dchosen_01 7 years ago

      @ Chasuk, I like your reasoning, but it seems you are to unnecessarily stubborn to this issue. Americans are upset not because you guys want to build a mosque, but simply because the location is insulting and disrespectful. DO you know what it means, if after burning your house, I build mine just a few meters away? Yeah, you may say its the Al-Queeda, but lets face it, they also claim the name of Allah and they do that in respect to the holy Jihad. If someone kills your family in Buddha's name and thought they are an extremist sect, would you give a damn if they are a sect or not? All you care about is 'some people who worship Buddha killed your family and who ever carrys adores the name Buddha has automatically become your enemy. This is the point! This issue is a two way thing, if the Muslims claim they are not attached to terrorism, one of the ways they can prove this is by withdrawing from this plan. By so doing, they show their remorse to the affected family and as well show that they truly care. This is simple plain logic, the Islamists just want to take advantage of the constitution, please stop it!

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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Chasuk, perhaps I'll have to take a look at the book. I'll see if I can find a used copy though, just in case I'm inadvertently funding terrorism to some degree. I agree soundbites can not always tell the whole story, and am willing to give Imam Rauf the benefit of the doubt. Still, the statements he made, those soundbites, are poignant, derisive, divisive, and in every way, disturbing, and VERY difficult to get around.

      Although, I would point out that even the title suggests that one could not get the fullest picture of the whole. What about what's wrong with Islam? Wouldn't that be an important part of the story?

      Wayne, absolutely the truth. I couldn't have said it better, and in fact, I didn't. Spot on.

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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Doug, while I agree with the premise of your comment, Imam Rauf is a very suspicious person based on all of the facts that I've stated in the comments thread numerous times. He may not have commanded the planes, and may not have Osama Bin Laden on speed dial, but I think the evidence speaks loud and clear that he's sympathetic to terrorists. That makes the Mosque suspect as well. And again, WHY NOT, if this is to truly build a bridge, make the building a non-denomination center for worship and memorial? Why make it just Muslim, especially considering the location?

      RCH, I agree, and thanks for stopping by.

      Tony, I was just reading an interesting hub on this topic who commented, "The dancing virgins will be old maids in wheel chairs before this Mosque is built," as he was referring to all of the red tape and difficulties that could become very much reality if the Mosque ever sees the first brick laid.

      The hub was from TheManWithNoPants. I'll add the link to the "Hubs I've Read Recently" capsule above if anyone cares to read it.

      Evvy, be flippant. It's a topic worthy of flippancy, if that's even a word. :)

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      Wayne Brown 7 years ago from Texas

      When you look around and see a 7-11 on every corner in sight, and then you see 7-11 come into the same area and build yet another store, you have to ask yourself what is the motivation? It's not convenience...companies don't accomodate convenience per se. Besides, there are already stores there! This is where their argument for the site falls apart. If you are of the Muslim faith, there are already plenty of mosques convenient to the site and the surrounding area. That leaves two reasons: 1. a tribute to the Muslims killed in 9/11 2. a tribute to the victory claimed on 9/11. Both are in poor taste and totally insensitive to those who suffered loss on that faithful day. Location has nothing to do with the Muslim faith and the practice of it. It has everything to do with the sensitivity of the victims and their families. That's all it boils down to in the end. On that basis, this is not a move that will build a bridge to stronger relations for Islam with the American citizen. In fact, it will go the other way. That mosque will serve as a marker of the stupidity, indecency, lack of sensitivity, and out right in your face arrogance of those who elect to put it there. If there is any sincerity in their thinking and any real desire for healing, their leaders would rethink this decision. There is no peace, love, or hand of sensitivity extended and if the project goes ahead as planned, there will be none offered as well. WB

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      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @Springboard: You wouldn't equate Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf with terrorism if you read his book, "What's Right With Islam."

      I've seen the interview with Bradley, which are largely soundbites from the book. They are truncated excerpts only, and in no way reveal the measure of the man.

      I can provide corroborating quotes from his book, if you are interested.

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      evvy_09 7 years ago from Athens, AL

      I didn't mean to sound flippant about it. I was just saying that it wont really change anything for the 9/11 families and that this point can be forever argued with no real one answer. But I do hope more people realize the truth.

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      tony0724 7 years ago from san diego calif

      And to boot this Mosque may get public funding. This kinda crap just makes me crazy. A Greek Orthodox Church that was near ground zero and destroyed has had blueprints and plans for years and they are not getting public funding nor approval. It does not matter most evry contractor in New York has already said that they won,t so much as dig a trench there.

      http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE67Q5BW201008...

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      RCH 7 years ago

      Agreed no Mosque at or near ground zero!! Doug Hughes, there should be no fund raising for them, this country has enough issues to deal with in its economical state. I say they are on there own and need to find a different location.

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      Doug Hughes 7 years ago

      I suggest that those who find the LOCATION offensive and have no problem with the religion of Islam - put together a fund-raiser for the 100 million neded for the project we all seem to support. If those folks who are so tolerant and undertanding of Islam (and only object to the location) can come up with $100 million first, the imam should agree to move the location elsewhere in NYC where he can still serve the local Muslims and the city at large.

      On the other hand, if you aren't going to put up cash, maybe you should butt out. None of the people associated with this project had anything to do with 9/11. Trying to punish NYC Moslems for 9/11 makes as much sense as gang-raping a nun to punish the Catholic church for the actions of a pedophile priest. It may make you feel better but it won't do anything to address the problem.

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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      I am not disputing their right to build a Mosque whereever they want to. I am disputing the sensibility of building it where they want to. I have no interest in, nor CAN I change the Constitution—I'm not sure I ever suggested I could. I'm just a working stiff who writes an opinion now and then for a little loose change.

      I am also not equating Islam with terrorists. I AM equating Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, however, with terrorism. His statements on 9/30/2001 with Ed Bradley on 60 Minutes were very telling of his thoughts about America, 911, and terrorists. His comments to date are no different, and no less disturbing. His absolute refusal to associate terrorism and Hamas and Hezbullah is disturbing. The fact that he calls 70% of the Americans who oppose the Mosque as fear-mongering biggots is disturbing. That he has no regard for the sentiments of the majority of this country is disturbing. Considering the location of the Mosque, the NAME of the Mosque, and the history behind the name and the history behind certain Mosques being built at locations where successful attacks have occurred is disturbing.

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      olasam 7 years ago

      They should build a mosque wherever they want to, thats the constitution and not even you can change that.Stop equating Islam and terrorism, its not fair. Every sect would have individual that would just choose to do things in a different manner and give their own interpretation to things. That i believe is what is happening in Islam. In 1995, so many innocent muslims were killed during an ethnic cleansing in bosnia. Peace

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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Izettl, this hub has certainly opened up a can of worms. Nothing like a great controversy. :) But I enjoy the debate—hell, that's in my profile. Great comments, entirely agree, and thanks for stopping by to share them.

      Evvy, I am convinced the chosen location for the Mosque is very much by design. And yes, it's sad. If the Mosque DOES get built, yes, we will all eventually get over it. Like 911, for those of us who give a damn, it will never be forgotten though. We will forever tell our grandchildren when we take them to that place, "Here is where America was attacked. And here is the monument we built for our enemies."

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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Glenn, I actually agree with you. Again, the majority of the opposition acknowledges the Constitutionality of building the Mosque. That's never been the debate. It certainly hasn't been for me. It's about the sensibility and prudence of putting a Mosque in a place where clearly the majority does not want it. That would stand to reason from any logical perspective that IF your intent, as has been stated, is to build a bridge...then with whom are you building a bridge if 70-77% of the American people you wish to reach are opposed? It doesn't make any sense. So, if 70-77% of the American people oppose the Mosque, and it gets built anyway, how does that improve relations? I'm ALMOST hearing "Na-nanny-boo-boo, you can't stop me," from Imam Rauf and the other Muslims for the Mosque.

      New Life, it's a stones throw and that's close enough. It is also, infact, on the same ground where the building stood where the landing gear of one of the planes that hit the towers hit first. So, it's as much a part of Ground Zero and 911 as anything touched by the event.

      Chasuk, we're simply not going to agree. I think that much is clear.

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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Rasman, this is not an issue of white America vs. everyone else. This is an issue for AMERICANS, plain and simple, and race really has nothing at all to do with the case of the Mosque. It has no foundation in the overall argument. If 70% of the American people are opposed to the Mosque, that absolutely includes MANY, MANY black Americans as well as white Americans, Asian Americans, Mexican Americans, Italian Americans, AND Muslim Americans. And actually, I've seen a poll that said the number of Americans who oppose the Mosque is actually something around the order of 77%. So, we're not talking about a few people. We're certainly not talking about a few 'ignorant white people.'

      BTW, I was not at all offended by your comment. I felt that it was inappropriate, out of context, without basis, and therefore it was not worthy of a response. Maybe that's a harsh way of putting it...but that's my thought about it. Still, as things go in America, you are entitled to have an opinion, and you are entitled to voice it, no matter how crazy or unfounded the opinion may be in MY opinion. I am entitled not to comment.

      As for ignorance overall? The ignorance clearly lies on the shoulders of Muslims who can't understand why this simply flies in the face of common sense. The ignorance lies on Muslims who do not understand just how sensitive Americans are to being attacked, KILLED, for who THEY are.

      And before you make the comparison that Muslims are being attacked for who they are...at Ground Zero the Muslim element is undeniable, and THAT'S why the dissent is there for the Mosque. There are Mosques all over the country, and not one of them is controversial. It is ALL ABOUT Ground Zero, 911, and Radical Islam.

    • evvy_09 profile image

      evvy_09 7 years ago from Athens, AL

      I get all the other points. They do have a right to build where they want. I know that and so does most other people who don't want it built there.

      But since several people are giving examples outside this subject, stuff gets censored all the time in movies, music, video games because it offends people. So companies respect that and so censor. I'm probaly not making my point well but anyway the religious center will be built where it will be built and the general public will eventually get over it. The families who lost loved ones in 9/11 will still be grieving and the world will go on. And also I really do hope my earlier comment is completely wrong but I don't feel like it is.

    • izettl profile image

      Lizett 7 years ago from The Great Northwest

      Whew! I didn't quite get through all the comments, but from the hub my take-home message is "The issue here is not about the right to build the Mosque. It's not at all about religious freedom. It is about tolerance for the sensitivities of Americans, and especially tolerance for the sensitivities of the families". Exactly. THis hub presents the best argument yet- in my opinion.

      The whole constitution and rights ,etc are being exploited as of late due to other hot button issues like immigration so now everybody whips out the constitution every chance they get. The Mosque issue represents more of the immigration issue about who Amercians are. We are basically being told to lose our pride in being Americans or standing together- if we stand together, others view it as being bullies to the minority, etc. I don;t think the constitution should be used against Americans. Having lost someone during 9/11, it is most definitely about the sensitivity of victims and families.

      Great hub by the way.

    • profile image

      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @Springboard: You write, "Chasuk, two planes, and smoldering buildings in ruins with thousands of dead bodies buried in the rubble doesn't feel like a perception of hot water vs. cold. The reality is as plain as the nose on my face."

      The reality is that Al-Qaeda does not equal all Muslims, or even most of them. The reality is that that stupid and hysterical people are allowing themselves to be manipulated by a cynical media and their own emotions instead of using their brains.

    • New Life profile image

      New Life 7 years ago from Chandler, Arizona

      Now from the information that I receive correct me if I am wrong but this cultural center was not in the exact place where the building was. So what is the problem....

    • PrometheusKid profile image

      PrometheusKid 7 years ago from Heaven

      There is no Tolerence for Intolerance.

      hahahaha

    • glenn wallace profile image

      glenn wallace 7 years ago

      I don't think Freedom of Religion should be overruled because someone's feelings might be hurt.

      After all, if you take into account the sensitivities of the families of the American muslims who died at ground zero, it would seem a terrible insult to say the freedoms of this country can be denied them just because the sensitivities of other Americans don't like it.

      Given, the stakes are pretty high when we're talking about an event on the magnitude of 9/11, but that's all the more reason to stand by the ideals of the constitution.

    • Rasman1 profile image

      Rasman1 7 years ago from Tucson, Arizona

      These Muslim American Soldiers don't deserve a place of worship if people have ignorant views. Honor these dead US Muslim soldiers that gave there lives for this Great Nation we call the United States of America. This family member does not deserve the freedom of religion right?

      http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/903/af311648663...

      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38880820/ns/us_news-li...

    • Rasman1 profile image

      Rasman1 7 years ago from Tucson, Arizona

      Springboard, I was not being racist I am not racist let's get it straight my wife is Caucasian and my children are mixed race. You automatically assume I am racist. Your reaction is a pure example of what I am talking about when it comes to ignorance. I was stating an observation that is rooted in truth. White America has shown it self to be very intolerant to others. History is a witness to this. I am not claiming all white people but just like you took offense to be put in the same pot as the ignorant whites so does those Muslims you place in the same place as the crazy radical elements. Yet when put in to context where you are a victim of this generalization it becomes wrong and racist. In the context of someone else being put in that generalization it is justified. The HYPOCRISY IS VERY EVIDENT. You only paid attention to the statements of the ignorant white people comment when there was much more substance to my comment. You made my point very clear. Do you understand now?

    • Springboard profile image
      Author

      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Rasman, your racist rhetoric makes it impossible for me to respond. Still, I honor my personal policy that I will not censor and will, therefore, let the comment stand. Others can comment on it if they wish. Thanks for stopping by.

      Evvy, exactly. Interesting isn't it? It's all just one big coincidence. It;s about a bridge. Nothing to do with 911 or victory...

      Ahem. :) Please. When do these people think we were born?

      Chasuk, two planes, and smoldering buildings in ruins with thousands of dead bodies buried in the rubble doesn't feel like a perception of hot water vs. cold. The reality is as plain as the nose on my face.

    • Rasman1 profile image

      Rasman1 7 years ago from Tucson, Arizona

      I guess a Catholic school built next to an elementary school is a victory for the pedophile priest that rape children. I guess a christian church built by white people near a black community is a victory for the Klu Klux Klan. I am in total disagreement with this article. It is a slap in the face for those American Muslims that have lost their lives serving this country. I have uncles that served in our armed forces and they are Muslims. Now America is telling them you can spill your blood for this country but you not will have the right to build a place of worship because some radical Muslims attacked US. You can go and Kill other Muslims in the name of America but you cannot have a place of worship any where you want unless the people approve of it. Those Muslims that died in the towers and died during the rescue cannot have a place of worship because of some radical fringe element? I think those in opposition are plain ignorant. You know there was a time that a black person if left to the majority would have never gotten out of slavery. I am appalled that Americans are willing to trample our Constitution because of some radical elements. The Klan claimed to be Christians and yet people still build Christians churches where ever they want. I am not opposed to the CULTURAL CENTER stop calling it a Mosque. SpringBoard have you ever been in a Mosque? Who have you gotten your information about Islam? It is a community center that anyone can go to with a gym, pool, theater, and many other things. Kinda like a YMCA or in my city the Jewish Cultural Center. Muslim Pray at certain times of day and having a place to go pray in the same building they have art classes only make sense. So get off this Islam is bad crap. Americans are so ignorant sometimes. The majority screaming against this Cultural center are White people so it is not surprising to see how ignorance trumps everything else. White people are notorious for being ignorant and intolerant to others. Very sad White people move forward like those of your race that understand dignity, tolerance and freedom.

    • profile image

      Chasuk 7 years ago

      I watched a little boy splash himself with icy water and howl "It's hot!" He splashed another little boy with the same water, and the second boy mimicked the first. The process repeated until there were half a dozen little boys screaming about being burnt by cold water.

      The situation with the mosque is like that, except the little boys are all adults who shouldn't be so easily manipulated by hysteria. There is nothing offensive about the mosque, but these adults have shut their brains off and are responding to mob reflex.

      Maybe you are right. Maybe it would be simplest to placate the stupid and the hysterical by building the mosque elsewhere, or not building it at all.

      Maybe that's what will ultimately happen. But isn't it sad that we have to treat adults like children?

    • evvy_09 profile image

      evvy_09 7 years ago from Athens, AL

      When I first heard about the whole topic I was in shock. It just Happens to be almost right next to where America was attacked and the world trade center was where america drew the line. And it just Happens to be an anniversy of that attack. New York is a huge city, if it was somewhere else it would be a nonissue.

    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Godwin, when you keep pointing to Fox News, it makes anything you say here moot. This is not a Fox News conspiracy. As for the "some" people who want the Mosque, or who are not opposed to the Mosque, that would be the 30%. 70% of the American people do not want it, and do oppose it. That should speak for something. That should be a loud and clear message for the Imam. AND Americans should look to other Mosques in other parts of the world, look at where they were built. Look at why they they were built. This is a victory Mosque. As for the other Mosques, they are not near Ground Zero, but they are in New York.

      Chasuk, the European Union is purely an economic collaboration. The governments still operate separately. And I should point out that the European Union simply made sense considering the very close proximity of the countries who participate, and the simple fact that Europeans travel around Europe like Americans travel around states. To have to change currencies all the time just gets to be daunting, inconvenient, and cumbersome for all involved.

      As for NWO as a whole, I cannot call myself a patriot and be so ready and willing to dissolve my America, nor her sovereignty. It is IMO unAmerican to want to see her diluted and dissolved into something, I fear, would be totally unrecognizable.

      Joni, that's one thing I've tried to convey, and that is that we all have this right or that right to do something according to the Constitution. Still, rights must be enjoyed with prudence and tact. I can have the right to say whatever I want, but I should be prudent and tactful in what I say. I have the right to bear arms, but if I've done something wrong, that right does not apply to me.

      The logic the left wants to use to justify the Mosque is really, for me, par for the course. They will always be for the transformation and dissolution of America as we know it, because according to them, this is a terrible place and we're a terrible people. And besides, we caused 911, right?

      Ugh.

      Chasuk, our rational faculties tell us that if you want to build a bridge between two people, you don't do it by shoving your half of it down the other's throat. That's not building a bridge. That's not opening up the dialogue. That's not reversing the tensions. Look around you. Use your rational faculties. If 70% of the American people don't want this Mosque to be built where it is being proposed to be built, and the Imam KNOWS this, and his intent is to improve relations between Muslims and other religions in America, how does he get this done by doing the opposite of the what the majority wants and then calling everyone (70%) who opposes it ignorant, fear-mongering biggots?

      Leaving everything else out ABOUT the Imam for a moment, just that alone, and that defiance alone says very cleary the Mosque is about victory and arrogance and not about building a bridge at all.

    • Springboard profile image
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      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Eatfifty, the argument I've made here is not a legal one. It's not a Constitutional one. I've not made an argument that anyone disallow the Mosque being built. We can all agree that it is legal to build the Mosque, and that Muslims have the right to build their places of worship wherever they may so choose. That's not open for debate.

      The Mosque IS all of those things you ascribed to it. If this Imam was not being antagonistic or insensitive, he would clearly see that his endeavoring to build a bridge would be for moot considering the numbers, and considering such strong opposition to what he wants to do. It flies in the face of sensibility and common sense to suggest that the Imam's intent is anything other than arrogant or antagonistic considering he decides to call the sentiment of the American people he wishes to build a bridge to ignorant, fear-mongering biggots.

      It's all about the context. It's all about what's between the lines. We're all smart enough, or should be smart enough to see that the Mosque being built, for ANY reason, as strongly as its opposed, just doesn't make any sense from an economical standpoint, and certainly not from a business perspective.

      This Mosque, if it ever sees the first brick laid, will forever be fraught with dissent.

    • profile image

      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @Joni: I abhor political correctness. I mm motivated to do what is right, regardless of ostensible "correctness."

      I am aware that this "mosque" offends many. But nothing about it should offend anyone who exercises their rational faculties for more than half a second.

      Ignorance should never be propitiated.

    • Joni Douglas profile image

      Joni Douglas 7 years ago

      Hey Springboard, I am with you here. The hub I wrote on it is full of comments like this too.

      What supporters of the mosque see is only the right for them to build, they do not see how inappropriate it is. With so many not having any moral backbone and having to stay so PC all the time, of course, they have to blame it on hate or they may see what they themselves lack in compassion and thoughtfulness.

      And the poster right before me is wrong, Laura was for Muslim helping other Muslims assimilate into American culture as the Imam wife's first said. Now the Imam's wife is back tracking not Laura Ingram.

    • profile image

      Chasuk 7 years ago

      @Springboard: I've lived in many countries, and most of them were indistinguishable from each other, in practice. I'm talking about matters of government, of course. Culturally, they were quite distinct.

      THE European Union thrives while allowing members with disparate governments, so there is no reason the NWO could not do the same. Some form of socialism or democratic socialism would probably hold sway, following the example of the majority of successful (and happiest) nations. Most are Scandinavian. Whatever they are drinking, I will drink it.

      Whose constitution? A new constitution, of course. There are many worthy templates.

      What religion? Successful states are secular, so that shouldn't be an issue.

    • Godwin Nwando profile image

      Godwin Nwando 7 years ago from San Diego

      Well, some families like the mosque being built and the topic was raised only because the Politicians in Fox news (even Laura Ingram didn't have a problem with it) decided they wanted to add fuel to the Presidents fire and raise up this mosque as some kind of terror mosque.

      The building would be unwise if people opposed it from the get-go but as an American, I do not mind the mosque near ground zero, since as you say there are already mosques near ground zero

      Its all about politics yall

    • eatfiftyeggs profile image

      eatfiftyeggs 7 years ago from U.S. of A.

      Okay, we'll call it apples-to-oranges if you want. The basic questions still stand -

      If you set a precedent that says you can prevent people from exercising their freedom of religion on their own private property, what prevents others from doing the same to you?

      And, does the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment provide for the freedom of religion, or not?

      You can think the building of the mosque is in poor taste, you can think it is unwise, you can think that it is obscene and provocative, but are you saying that they don't have the legal and Constitutionally protected right to build it? Again, if the offensive and tasteless are not protected, what is? Everything is offensive and tasteless to someone.

    • Springboard profile image
      Author

      Springboard 7 years ago from Wisconsin

      Chasuk, but whose government would the NWO be based upon? Whose Constitution? Whose religion? Whose economic system? Capitalism? Socialism? Communism? Islam? Christianity? Buddhism?

      I'm sorry, but I think you fail to see that multiculturalism is the very thing that would cause the NWO to be a failure in every place where any one felt like their order was set aside. Every country thinks it has the best ideas...that's why they govern the way they do. So who gets to decide? And who's going to follow along? And what if we don't like what we get?

      No man. You can have your NWO and call it whatever you want. I think the world I love to live in would cease to exist, and as much as I may complain about this thing or that thing, I'd have it no other way than the way it is...

      Here. In America.

      Rlaf, I'll donate the matches. :)

      Eatfiftyeggs, you are comparing apples to oranges. Please.

    • eatfiftyeggs profile image

      eatfiftyeggs 7 years ago from U.S. of A.

      Using your logic, then I suppose pro-choice activists would have the right to protest the building of a church or a Christian-faith-based center (like pro-life parent counseling organizations) near any clinic that has been bombed or terrorized by pro-life, Christian zealots. Remember, these things set precedents, so Christians interested in their freedom of religion ought to be wary about protesting the rights of others.

      Insensitive or not, this is still very much a freedom of religion issue. Remember, if the insensitive and offensive are not protected, neither is anything/ anyone else.

    • rlaframboise profile image

      rlaframboise 7 years ago from 1776

      I'm not for the government stopping it from being built.

      I am for the people protesting it, refusing to build it and eventually burning it down. In a free society respect goes both ways.

      You don't build something somewhere that pisses off 70% of the people unless you have ulterior motives.