Psychoactive drugs and schools

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   Doodleheadposted 10 years ago

   I don't understand the "no focus" on the AMA  behind all this which condones the use of psychoactive drugs.
   
   Why does the burniing desire to drug our entire population rank so low as a solution to violence???

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      Barefootfaeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      All the better to control them.

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         Doodleheadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         So right you are.   I had a 66 year old customer of mine look me in the eye a few weeks ago with an "off the wall" question.  I thought about that a lot.   It seemed so out of character for this person.   Yesterday she called to discuss some things an she also mentioned she was on new meds for a few weeks and she was having thoughts of suicide.
         
         As a non-medical person now I'm wondering just what the differences might be for her to trigger her own suicide or a homicide perhaps of her own sone with whom she lives.
         
         Now I have startedd observing my other customers and it has occurred to me that many many of them are on antidepressants and and "mixed" combos of drugs.  One person in particular I have decided not to be around at all anymore.

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            Dr Billy Kiddposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            In the psychotherapy community, they noticed quite some time ago that anti-depressant medications can give a person a boost of energy--especialy ones that modulate norepinephrine. Sometimes that boost (which is meant to get them back into their groove) gives them enough energy to commit suicide.
            
            Without the medication, the person would still be lying around, staring at the ceiling, or something. Talk therapy can give the same response. I know it sounds counterintuitive but it's real.

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               Mighty Momposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               The recommended treatment for depression is a combination of antidepressants and therapy.
               The meds are, as you say, to give the depressed person the chemical jolt to get off the bed, get their clothes on and get their butt out of the house to therapy.
               The therapy (Cognitive Behavior Therapy is big, or the more "evolved" version, Dialetical (which I like to call "diabolical" tee hee) Behavior Therapy) teaches self-care tactics to break the cycle of depression and hopefully give the person tools to keep from spiraling back down.
               Also, the therapist keeps a close eye on any suicidal or homicidal thoughts or plans.
               
               Of course, this is in a perfect world.
               I don't know the statistics, but I would venture to say that the lucky ones who can navigate their way to treatment and penetrate the Fort Knox that is our mental health system AND have the means to pay for it AND the willingness to make changes are the minority.
               My scenario is voluntary patients only. Although, it's not that easy to get 5150'd either, unless you make an actual suicide attempt. At least not where I live.
               
               To simply prescribe antidepressants is, in my view, risky and potentially criminal. Especially for teens and young adults.
               

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      stanwshuraposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I'm confused by what seem to be two contradictory statements.  The AMA (rightfully) makes a low priority of solving the violence of those brought up by the "gung ho, America!" generation by - huh??? "fixing" the psychotropic drug "problem"?  Arum...do you know anything about mood disorders, disossiation, learning disabilities, brain trauma, neurological and developmental disabilities?  Do you knpw the classes of meds and the painstaking process of finding the right med, med combo and/or doses.  Are you aware that still, IN THE 21st CENTURY!!, most of the dumbass masses regard illness above the shoulders differently than they view those ailments south of the sentient border?
      
      You wanna know why some of our children are violent?  It's because, in most such circumstances, they are brought up and even acculturated to that result. 
      
      Hell, we pay a whole section of the government and its boot-camped, ramrod straight postured "be all that you can be"s to essentially be ready to kill at a moment's notice.  Ya won't find many pyshotropics tucked into the fatigues of our fighting men and women.  But we expect children not to embrace and jump at the chance to emulate a culture that makes heros out of anyone who can kick ass.
      
      You did clue me in to the nonsense factor when you cavalierly used the phrase "drugging our entire population" - which is a dead give away to over-the-top, alarmist, anti-med *BUNK* about to be spewed.  You ever seen a bipolar or schizophrenic off meds?  Been there done that. 
      
      *I* did not feel unsafe.  But I was very worried, and a little pissed, that they were not getting theeeeeeeeeee treatmenteee and supervision they need.   plenty on our plates already.  We don't need the laughable ignorance of the A.M. hotheads and their devotees telling us to suck it up, and then indeed telling us how much we suck.  And *WE'RE the confused ones?
      
      The finger wagging, bootstraps zealotry is growing a bit old, stale and tired.  It is nearing extinction as a legitimately reasonable stance, and not nearly early or quickly enough.  Give us a break, wouldja please?  Our plates are plenty full enough.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         How come I do not understand what your point is?
         I do not see violent kids. Do you mean young adults?
         I do not see them emulating military men.
         Acculturated refers to adapting cultures.
         Who are the A.M. hotheads?
         Who are their devotees?
         Why are they telling you to suck it up?
         Why do they tell you how much you suck?
         Were you in the military?
         If you were, you should know that military men and women are prescribed plenty of pharmaceutical drugs.
         What are you trying to tell us?
         And why do you seem so angry?

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            stanwshuraposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Why do you seem to think you know how I feel?
            Why on earth do YOU feel even exponentially NEAR CLOSELY matched in lexicographical aptitude to attempt to deliver a (poor) vocabulary/vernacular lesson to ME?
            Why do you hide statements behind same which are questions by grammatical presentation only?
            Do you think I'm Alex Trebeck?

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               Mighty Momposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               I can't help but really laugh out loud at this post, Stan. Guffaw, more like!
               And can't help but retort (in a good natured and not serious tone, which is in no way intended to discount or undermine the seriousness of your excellent points about mental illness in our society):
               Do YOU think you're Alex Trebek?
               
               MM

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                  stanwshuraposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Thank you, Mighty Mom.  Hijack inDEED.

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            tammybarnetteposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Slam dunk!!! Very well said. I will say however, that I do believe IMHO we are an over prescribed society, especially of pain medications, which is creating many societal problems, and could have many negative effects in schools, not only violence.Odd how so many slip through the cracks with mental health needs, but anyone with good insurance can get loaded up on pain pills.

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         Dr Billy Kiddposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         stanwshura... is what you're saying that America is a warrior society but people are generally in denial of it? So they raise their kids on violent TV and rap and have them ready to support any war for any reason. Yet Americans do not expect their children to act out in public and fight, maim, and kill when they grow up.

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            stanwshuraposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            No.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Dear DH
      How come I do not understand what you have written?
      Which drugs are psychoactive?
      What do you mean by "no focus"?
      What does "this" refer to?
      Who has the burning desire to drug the entire population?
      What ranks so low?
      What is a solution to violence?
      What is your actual point?
      Just wonderin'

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      psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I don't really understand what you are specifically talking about.
      
      But if you think psychiatric drugs are never necessary or beneficial, well you are just wrong.

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   Doodleheadposted 10 years ago

   stanwshura---
   
   
   Do not attempt to hijack the forum topic.   Please
   stay "on point" in fairness to call.  Thank you for your consideration!

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      stanwshuraposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Doodlehead and Kathryn, I apologize for the excessive ornariness in my last post.  I would however, never "try" to "hijack" a thread - a loaded word that needs to disappear from the colloquial 'net dialogue!  Was merely responding, very impulsively and, I concede *somewhat* tangentially.  But, in my "look, shiny!" defense, I hadn't yet taken my effective and properly prescribes psychotropic quartet.
      
      Voi'la!  Back on topic.

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   Doodleheadposted 10 years ago

   The lady I mentioned above who is my customer who asked me the strange question is actually not on psychoactive meds.    The med she said was causing her to have the suicidal thoughts is a drug used for neuropathy for diabetics.   So it was interesting to me that she and others (she read to me the side effects of this drug) are experiencing suicidal desires when they are taking drugs that are targeting diabetes and not psychological problems.   
   
   In the above case it appears to me the lady who previously had not need for psychological drugs now may be faced with psychological "issues" due to her taking a drug designed for pain medication for diabetics.   
   
   For anyone interested she told me the drug causing her desire for suicide is gabapentin.   She read the side effects of gabapentin and that's how she found out she has the symptoms.   She said she has all the symptoms.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   Yes, but did you know that often problems arise from the lack of beneficial nutrients in the body. Furthermore, the modern diet may consist of additives, preservatives, artificial flavors, colors, white flour and white sugar, or sugar substitutes.  Many people are affected by BHA, BHT and MSG. Before asking Doctors to  jump in with more chemicals for the the body (which nature designed to function on natural foods that contain an array of vitamins and minerals) why not try a natural foods approach making sure to get plenty of thiamine, B12, B6, calcium, magnesium and folate. These nutrients have been proven to successfully treat hyperactive and "neurotic" adults and children.

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   Doodleheadposted 10 years ago

   Finally an article appears that addresses this to some degree---here's a link to
   an article from www.wnd.com that discusses the prescription meds that various
   "shooters" were on when they shot.-
   
   http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/the-giant-ga … reporting/

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      grand old ladyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Not sure about that being reliable. The author quotes no source for his statements, and doesn't specify what award he won. His biggest believable credit is that he owns his own website, which anyone can do.
      
      I would be very careful blaming, for example, mass shootings on people who are insane, and in this way putting a label on all insane people. A lot of crimes were created by people who were SANE. Legally, one can claim insanity if a murder was committed spontaneously, that would be also temporary insanity, there was no plan, no escape plan, no attempt to hide the evidence. But if you plan a murder or hire a murderer, which often happens, and then you plan how the murder will happen, plan your alibi and plan how to hide the body, then you are perfectly sane. A lot of serial murderers for this reason were deemed legally sane.
      
      Giving drugs to the children should be monitored medically because if someone needs this kind of medication they are more likely to go off the wall than if they weren't given the medication they need.
      
      If you read the book "People of the Lie" by M. Scott Peck you would see that in his experience children who were not "normal" were actually more normal than their parents -- who were not getting the treatment they need.
      
      I hesitate to jump to conclusions regarding medical illness. We should understand it and not label it or say they are liable to turn violent. Just like the rest of humanity some are, some aren't. Chances are, the ratio is the same.

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         Doodleheadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         I am very confident in wnd as a source.   By pointing out that many people who are "shooters" are on these meds is not stating that these same people are even mentally ill to begin with.
         
         For Pete's sake...even the med manufacturers put labels on the meds stating homicidal tendencies are a side effect.

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            grand old ladyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Again, I need to know the sources where he bases his claims.
            
            People who kill others, serial killers, are oftentimes as normal as you and me. You see it all the time on TV. People kill for money, to hid evidence of something they did, or just because killing is a way for them to get "high."
            
            If they were mentally ill they could claim that as their defense and be put in a mental asylum. Instead, they are in jail. Charles Manson and his coterie were not mentally ill. Manson was mad because his attempt for a singing career did not come out as planned.
            
            You can't blame all murders on mental illness.
            
            Again, you may have confidence on wnd, I don't. The only background it has is that the author owns it. Who is the author? His background is shady and unclear.
            
            You put labels on all meds. Not all meds mention homicidal tendencies as a side effect. You put labels on cigarettes, on herbel medications, drinks and the like. So what?

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               Doodleheadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               My parents have never thought I was normal.   My friends consider me normal....but maybe they aren't normal.   One of my former friends got herself declared clinically depressed so she could collect on disability.   She told me she did it on purpose as she had gone through her 401k money.   Puts me in a dilemma....is she my friend, is she clinically depressed (she has a closet full of meds she's never taken) and she seems happy to have a guaranteed monthly income courtesy of the state of California.
               
               I had an MD give me a med for a physical ailment and it made me depressed.   So under that scenario should I be additionally medicated because the first meds are making me depressed?

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                  grand old ladyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Well, lots of people think I'm not normal, either. But I think normal is boring. You know the saying, "they laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at them because I'm not the same."
                  
                  Re medication, normally you have to go through a number of different types before you find what really works for you. What is important is that you are monitored by a doctor.
                  
                  The med that made you depressed for your physical ailment -- well, that happens. But generally medicines are good. Hospitals are good. Treatment is good for physical and mental ailments. In World War II they had no anesthesia. That must have really sucked. So a bad experience or two should not discount all medications.

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                     grand old ladyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     The saying I meant to write is "They laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at them because THEY'RE all the same." Sorry for the typo.

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   psycheskinnerposted 10 years ago

   People who shoot others are in an abnormal state of mind.  Thus it is not uprising many of them have psychiatric illnesses and some of those are medicated.
   
   The chance that a shooter is mentally ill has nothing to do with the chance a mental ill person will shoot someone.
   
   If the odds worked that way we would imprison every person of the male gender as a preventative measure.

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   psycheskinnerposted 10 years ago

   And if you need the medication, you work on it until you get one that gives you minimal and acceptable side effects for the benefit.
   
   If you don't really need the medication, naturally you don't take it.
   
   The goal is to be better off. Neither the doctor nor the patient can lose sight of that.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   We need to work with these children with special needs without putting them on medication. End of story. Accept them as they are and work with them according to how they can best be helped. Also realize that they bring what we do not understand to light our lives, but we recognize it not.

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   psycheskinnerposted 10 years ago

   The special need can be homicidal impulses, suicidal depression, delusions etc.  These things cause suffering to the child and should be treated by whatever method is most effective for that reason.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I cannot believe this. Please explain. 
      Case studies would be great.

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         stanwshuraposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Rod Matthews.  Billie Holiday.  Me.  The first was a child in deep emotional trouble, no meds.  Murdered classmass Shawn Oulette to "see what it would feel like".  Lady Day died too toung trying to drink her SOOOOOOOOO obvious clinical depression away.  Yes, I get the irony.  Me - medication helps me in too many ways to list.  Have I been depressed and suicidal while on meds?  You bet your ...ahem...!  Would I be alive to write about it without meds?  Are lions vegetarians??

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         psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         If you don't realize children can be suicidal and homicidal I am not sure what I can do except suggest you look into it. Try Google Scholar and keywords like "homicidally aggressive children".

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

    It wasn't like this in the past. Something is really going wrong in a society where everyone is so naturally unhappy! I feel sorry for you all. In the case of Billie Holiday, she was overworked and got caught up in drugs due to her desire for success.

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