To carry or not to carry...

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   Beth37posted 11 years ago

   I do not have a huge bias concerning gun control. To me, it's a bit like taking birth control pills, or being a vegetarian... it's up to you. However, I found these stats to be really surprising and I hadn't seen them before. I hope it wont start an ugly debate, but at the very least, the facts are really thought provoking.
   
   WORLD MURDER STATISTICS
   
   Murders per 100,000 citizens per year.
   
   Honduras 91.6 (WOW!!)
   El Salvador 69.2
   Cote d'lvoire 56.9
   Jamaica 52.2
   Venezuela 45.1
   Belize 41.4
   US Virgin Islands 39.2
   Guatemala 38.5
   Saint Kitts and Nevis 38.2
   Zambia 38.0
   Uganda 36.3
   Malawi 36.0
   Lesotho 35.2
   Trinidad and Tobago 35.2
   Colombia 33.4
   South Africa 31.8
   Congo 30.8
   Central African Republic 29.3
   Bahamas 27.4
   Puerto Rico 26.2
   Saint Lucia 25.2
   Dominican Republic 25.0
   Tanzania 24.5
   Sudan 24.2
   Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9
   Ethiopia 22.5
   Guinea 22.5
   Dominica 22.1
   Burundi 21.7
   Democratic Republic of the Congo 21.7
   Panama 21.6
   Brazil 21.0
   Equatorial Guinea 20.7
   Guinea-Bissau 20.2
   Kenya 20.1
   Kyrgyzstan 20.1
   Cameroon 19.7
   Montserrat 19.7
   Greenland 19.2
   Angola 19.0
   Guyana 18.6
   Burkina Faso 18.0
   Eritrea 17.8
   Namibia 17.2
   Rwanda 17.1
   Mexico 16.9
   Chad 15.8
   Ghana 15.7
   Ecuador 15.2
   North Korea 15.2
   Benin 15.1
   Sierra Leone 14.9
   Mauritania 14.7
   Botswana 14.5
   Zimbabwe 14.3
   Gabon 13.8
   Nicaragua 13.6
   French Guiana 13.3
   Papua New Guinea 13.0
   Swaziland 12.9
   Bermuda 12.3
   Comoros 12.2
   Nigeria 12.2
   Cape Verde 11.6
   Grenada 11.5
   Paraguay 11.5
   Barbados 11.3
   Togo 10.9
   Gambia 10.8
   Peru 10.8
   Myanmar 10.2
   Russia 10.2
   Liberia 10.1
   Costa Rica 10.0
   Nauru 9.8
   Bolivia 8.9
   Mozambique 8.8
   Kazakhstan 8.8
   Senegal 8.7
   Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7
   Mongolia 8.7
   British Virgin Islands 8.6
   Cayman Islands 8.4
   Seychelles 8.3
   Madagascar 8.1
   Indonesia 8.1
   Mali 8.0
   Pakistan 7.8
   Moldova 7.5
   Kiribati 7.3
   Guadeloupe 7.0
   Haiti 6.9
   Timor-Leste 6.9
   Anguilla 6.8
   Antigua and Barbuda 6.8
   Lithuania 6.6
   Uruguay 5.9
   Philippines 5.4
   Ukraine 5.2
   Estonia 5.2
   Cuba 5.0
   Belarus 4.9
   Thailand 4.8
   Suriname 4.6
   Laos 4.6
   Georgia 4.3
   Martinique 4.2
   
   And ............................................
   The United States 4.2 !!!!!!!!!!!!
   
   ALL (109) of the countries above the US of A have 100% gun bans.
   It might be of interest to note that SWITZERLAND is not shown on this list because it has:
   NO MURDER OCCURRENCE!
   However, SWITZERLAND'S law requires that EVERY ADULT MALE:
   1. Be issued a gun.
   2. Be trained in its use.
   3. Maintain Marksman qualifications .... regularly.
   (Snopes:http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp)

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      psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      You really think you can compare the US fairly to essentially lawless states and war zones, which is what most of these are?  What the law is only matters of there is a effective police and justice system and in the vast majority of these countries, there effectively isn't. 
      
      That is why people compare the US to other first world nations with no within-border wars.  Apples to apples.

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      1. 75

         wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         You're right.
         
         But if you compare the US, homicide rate and gun ownership rate, to other first world countries without a war going on, you will find that there is absolutely no correlation between the number of guns in the country and the homicide rate.
         
         I'm not talking about Bolivia or Guatemala here, but countries of Europe (France, Germany, Switzerland, UK, etc.), and other first world countries around the world such as Japan, Australia, New Zealand and the like.

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            Silverspeederposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            The weapon of choice for the murderer in the UK is the knife.
            
            We are extremely lucky here in the UK the police compile the figures for government to gloat over.
            The crime rate has fallen at its fastest for 2 decades, from 2006 to 2009 there was a drop of 17%, however a commons select committee inquiry has found that the police have been doctoring the figures. (now why would they do that?)
            The fall is put down to better police work, the proliferation of CCTV and better DNA evidence.

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               wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               And in Canada it appears to be bludgeoning, whether by tools, hands or feet.  In the middle East it is bombs.
               
               Take the guns and something else will be found.  Killers will not be stopped by so simple a solution as taking their preferred tool.

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               1. 59

                  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I think the problem is that if somebody stands ten feet in front of me with either a knife or a piece of wood they are not an immediate threat. I stand a reasonable chance of either disarming them or putting legs under it and getting away.
                  
                  Faced with a gun I might not even be able to see my attacker!

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                     wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     IF they stand 10 feet away and make plain overtures they will attack.
                     
                     Few attackers, gun or not, will follow the rules like that.  The ice pick in the movie theater comes to mind...

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                        John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Nevertheless, the perception is different.
                        
                        Movie theatre or grassy knoll?

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                        1. 75

                           wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           Yes, the perception is different.  The gun haters often bring this one up - that they can run away from a killer without a gun.
                           
                           Unfortunately the facts say differently; countries that don't allow guns do NOT show fewer homicides.  Perhaps people there all have broken legs and can't run very fast.  The perception doesn't match the reality, in other words.

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                              John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              Well, it's true - how do you run away from somebody you can't even see?
                              
                              Er, what facts? The UNODC report 5 killings per 100,000 for the USA as opposed to 1.2 per 100,000 for the UK. That certainly looks like fewer homicides to me. That's not gun related, that's everything.

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                  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  So you're saying the whole "polite" thing is a ruse?
                  And how the heck do you bludgeon someone with a foot? Is the foot connected at the time of the bludgeoning?

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                     John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Canada 1.8 per 100,000.

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                        Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        I guess they ran out of loose feet to bludgeon ppl with.

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                           John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           

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      2. 86

         GA Andersonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         But what about the Switzerland emphasis of her comparison? Is it fair to compare the U.S. to Switzerland?
         
         Taking the high numbers found elsewhere, Switzerland could have a rate as high as 3.68 per 100k, and a 29% population gun ownership
         
         vs. The U.S. at 10.3 per 100k, and a 43% gun ownership.
         
         To account for the ownership rate disparity, 29 vs 43, comparable murder rates might be claimed as 3.68, (Switz.) t0 6.9, (U.S.). The U.S. is still higher of course, but it does point out that perhaps the U.S. is the evil gun-owning nation most want to portray it as.
         
         Just saying...
         
         GA

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            John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I seem to recall that though guns were almost compulsory in Switzerland, ammunition is closely guarded, counted out and counted in.

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   2. 86

      GA Andersonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I get the gist of your point, as made by the list you included, but...
      
      Although the point about misleading gun ownership assumptions appears valid, the information may be a little slanted, or just flawed.
      
      For instance;
      Several other lists, including Wikipedia, show Switzerland to have various "murder rates" from .52 per 100k, to 3.68 per 100k. They also show the U.S. at around 10.2 per 100k.
      
      This does not invalidate the comparison, but it does seem to show a bias from the list maker.
      
      Were you asleep when you typed Switzerland had "NO ,MURDER OCCURRENCE?"
      Just a quick search debunked this.
      In Switzerland, annual deaths resulting from firearms total
      
      2011: 2395
      2010: 241
      2009: 277
      2008: 259
      2007: 291
      2006: 285
      2005: 299
      2004: 318
      2003: 339
      2002: 397
      2001: 408
      2000: 387
      1999: 392
      1998: 466
      1997: 434
      1996: 454
      1995: 436
      source: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/switzerland
      
      The rest also needs a little clarification. It is not "EVERY ADULT MALE," it is almost every, (there are some exemptions), adult male between the ages of 20 and 34, and this is a military service issue - which is not implied by your comment.
      
      Also the "be trained, and maintain marksmanship qualifications" requirements end at age 30, (for enlisted), and 34, (for officers).
      
      But even after pointing out the flawed data presentation, I agree that your original paragraph, and the apparent point of your post, (that gun ownership is not always a bad thing), seem to contradict a lot of the anti-gun and pro-gun control lobbies, (and supporters) primary arguments.
      
      Who would have thought good ol' peaceful Switzerland would have had such pervasive gun ownership in their society without all those mass shootings that anti-gun folks say only happen because people are allowed to have guns.
      
      Thanks for pointing this out.
      
      GA

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         wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         A little correction.  Nothing in the OP references gun homicides, or murder by gun.  You are the only one to bring this up, and it is irrelevant to the point being made.
         
         According to the UN, compiled by "Small Arms Survey.org", the homicide rate in 2007 (not "gun" homicide) for Switzerland is 0.7/100,000; the US is 5.7.  Gun ownership is 45.7 guns/100 people in Switzerland, 88.8 in the US.  (not quite the same statistic as you used, where I believe you refer to households with guns)  Statistics on both sides of these ratios can be found in various other 1st world countries.

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            GA Andersonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            hmm... first a mention of no gun control bias, then a mention of 100% gun bans, then the reference to "NO MURDER OCCURRENCES" (hard to believe there no murders of any kind), so yes I did make an assumption and I did jump to the conclusion that the point of the OP was gun deaths and gun control issues.
            
            If so that would not make my response irrelevant. I think the odds are in my favor. Perhaps Beth37 will chime in with a little clarification.
            
            And you are right, a range of statistic variances can be found for either side of the discussion.
            
            I will put on a little mood music while we wait for Beth37...
            
            GA

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               wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Oh, the comment about Switzerland is definitely NOT irrelevant - it should be obvious that not a single country has a homicide rate of zero.  At least not one with more than a few thousand people.
               
               But to bring gun homicides into a discussion of gun ownership vs murder rate - yes, that is little more than a red herring.

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               Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Sorry, I was at work... had I known my presence was required, I should have hopped in my car and come home. Please remember to use the batlight when matters become urgent.

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                  GA Andersonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  No worries, I'll save the Batgirl light for real emergencies.
                  
                  GA

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         Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         lol... no, nor was I drunk. As I said, I have a few beliefs concerning gun ownership, but I don't feel a need to argue them. This was an email I received from my incredibly right-wing, father in law. I just felt it was interesting so I thought I'd share it.

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            GA Andersonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Once more, hmm... "...from my incredibly right-wing father-in-law." Does that mean you think the point of the post was about gun ownership and gun control? (maybe I am not so irrelevant after all)
            
            Do you think he was asleep, (or drunk), when he wrote/copied "NO MURDER OCCURRENCES?
            
            GA

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               Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this

               A) He was most likely not asleep.
               B) He did not write it.

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   David Carlposted 11 years ago

   Maybe we could use Pres Obama's policy on handling terrorists as a way of handling the gun owning issue in America. Let me see, first don't use the word terrorist, it is a euphemism. Don't assume that everyone trying to kill Americans overseas or in this country are linked to an international american hater network. So...just treat them all like the criminals and murderers that they are and set the FBI on them, bring them to justice and prosecute them within the American court system... that way, we don't have to get all riled up about something that is just being overly politicized and just makes the people who don't like us, more angry because everyone knows that Americans are warmongers and only interested in making a buck. So, we should do the same with people (U.S. Citizens) who own or want to own guns in the United States to hunt and protect themselves. That would mean we pursue the ones ( persons who own guns) that misuse their rights, bring them to justice and prosecute them within the American court system, but don't over politicize the issue and don't turn gun owners into villains who want to shoot people they don't like and kill everything beautiful and alive in nature....call them, ....... fire arms enthusiasts and leave it at that.
   
   Hmmm.... it must have been that venison.... burp.

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