jump to last post 1-4 of 4 discussions (63 posts)

Christianity in Uganda

  1. wilderness profile image94
    wildernessposted 3 years ago

    Uganda's president yesterday signed into law a bill with rather harsh penalties for homosexual acts.  At least 14 years in prison seems harsh to me.

    Followed by celebrations from born again Christians celebrating the opportunity to "punish" such evil doing.  And who says Christians mean no harm to their brothers and sisters in this world?  How do such "born again" people justify teaching their children to take over God's place in punishing people for violating His commands?
    http://s2.hubimg.com/u/8771613_f248.jpg

    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/ … 11081.html

    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image88
      Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      They are acting on knee jerk and gut reactions. Their Christianity is not in play
      at all.

      1. wilderness profile image94
        wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Sadly, I think you are mistaken. I think that to an awful lot of people that IS Christianity - punishing the infidel that isn't their brand of righteousness.  Tolerance is not a word that all too many religious (of any faith) care to recognize.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image88
          Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          No, They are not conferring with the words/teachings of Jesus.  And this would be a great place to finally reveal the actual words/teachings of Jesus, how they have NOT been understood, are misinterpreted, and ignored!
          If Jesus were here today, He would rebuke them!

          1. wilderness profile image94
            wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Well, of course they aren't!  But that isn't the point I meant to make - that they are no different than the many of these forums that say the same basic message was the point.  There are simply far too many of that ilk; that insist everyone else in the world accept their personal concept of religious matters.

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image88
              Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              yes, I get it.

          2. profile image0
            mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            But there is no Jesus present today and his word, his gospel is NOT the stuff of most organized Christian religions. Clearly some Christian sects are, in their teachings and practices, consistent with Jesus.

            But, we see even backlash to the pope from some Catholics (Catholics who are supposed to accept the pope as infallible) when he makes efforts to soften the homophobic message of Catholicism.

          3. EncephaloiDead profile image61
            EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Jesus would rebuke a whole lot of self-professed Christians here on these forums, including you.

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image88
              Kathryn L Hillposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              ...what for, specifically E.D.?? And whatever your answer is, it is only your interpretation.
              Which I suppose is your point.
              How do YOU interpret the golden rule?

            2. profile image0
              mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Wow!

              So "EncephaloiDead" has a direct conduit to Jesus and can determine that he would, in fact, punish all Christians who have added to Hubpages forums, including it seems me (mbuggieh)...fascinating.

              What is my sin? Having a brain? Being a rational thinker? Being humane?

              Or maybe pointing out the hypocrisy of some of those who claim to be Christians?

              Or maybe pointing out the hypocrisy of Roman Catholics who challenge the authority of the Pope?

              Whatever...this is, I must say, the first time in my life that I have been directly threatened with the wrath of God...wink

          4. rhamson profile image76
            rhamsonposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            The weird thing about this judgment of homosexuals is that "we" are not to judge them at all. The Bible says through Paul and many others in the Old Testament that Homosexuality is an abomination to God. Who gave us mortals the right to judge and act in condemnation of these people? I believe it is Jesus and God who are the only ones Holy enough to judge others in Christianity so where did that change?

            1. profile image0
              mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              So...

              Do you believe, then, that a law which punishes homosexuality with death is a just law?

              Is your statement one of support for the recent legislation enacted in Uganda?

              That said, the Bible claims many things to be an "abomination" to God. What about eating pork and shellfish? How about women cutting their hair? Or how about adultery?

              Are you willing to say that each of these "abominations" should also be punished as directed in the Bible?

              1. rhamson profile image76
                rhamsonposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Boy did you miss the gist of my post! The law which punishes homosexuality by death is indeed a man made iteration of what the Bible says is the treatment for homosexuality. It is a sin to God and God only. It does not give anybody the authority to act on what is His and His only. So is it wrong to put to death those who practice it? Absolutely! The conclusion of the abomination to God is taken by some (and in this case Ugandans) that they are to act on behalf of God? That is the real sin. I would therefore conclude as a direct answer to your question of my endorsing the Ugandan law as a simple no. There may be other connotations such as of the prevention of AIDS as a response to the epidemic in that country but I have responded to the religious end of this post.

                If you believe in the Bible and its' practices then a I guess you would be acting as an abomination to God if you ate pork and shellfish and the cutting of hair or committed adultery. But is it something mortal men should take upon themselves to adjudicate and punish those that commit them? A simple no is my answer. What did Jesus do when he came upon those that would stone a woman for committing adultery? "those of you without sin shall cast the first stone" was his answer about judging and condemning others of sinful acts of abomination against God. And what did he do then? He told her to go her own way and sin no more.

                If you are of the opinion as in the text of the Old Testament that these abominable acts were punishable by death you might have a leg to stand on in an argument. As retribution and atonement were met with harsh punishments in the Torah for a wayward society. The New Testament changed all of that to one of forgiveness and love through the sacrifice of Christ.

                This really is in the wrong forum but I had to answer your question. Mind you I am not a religious person I am a student of all religions and the harmony among them in their teachings so if any of you want to bash me for what I have stated you will be barking up the wrong tree as I have not stated my beliefs but only my understanding of the beliefs others engage in.

                1. profile image0
                  mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks for the clarification.

        2. profile image0
          mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          On this wilderness, we can agree.

          1. Kiss andTales profile image26
            Kiss andTalesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            That is very interesting  , This is a touchy situation, what we have is Bad condemning Bad, When sinful people throws stones at sinful people.  There is a difference  here. What was Jeaus example, he treated all people with respect, but he did not condone the breaking of the law of  God or his father.
            If people did not know the sexual preference they would be treated fair without  this knowledge.   Example is it really important what you do privately in your bathroom, how you clean yourself or how you wipe. The point  is there is law between you and God , and no man has the right to misuse another human being ,when God  himself  allows all humans the ability to use his spirit of  life force.  Good or bad , also His sun and moon, his produce that he allows to grow. His rain he lets fall. .And the problem with people who claim this lifestyle  make it an extreme  importance of  gratification  of sex  . They preach it.  This is not what Jesus ask us to preach about.  In  Matthews Jesus  said the preaching of the kingdom  or new Government Established by His Father would be the true marks of  real Christians., Mathew 24:24 " This  good News of the kingdom will preach  in all the inhabited earth and then the end will come" Mathew 28: 19-20  tell us a teaching work will be happening world wide. The common subject  would be kingdom interest. www.jw.org shows the world activity. In reality Jesus is in his heavenly domain directing his kingdom interest , he is very active. ,verse 20 says he is with us until the end  This subject has caused great controversy  .  Yet this is nothing  new. It is foretold as leading to the end  . The book of Rev tells how. And just look at the Pope and his standing before the United Nations and child pedefiers The bible tells the end of this matter also. Religion is under a scope.

            1. profile image0
              mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Exactly how are people supposed to keep their sexual orientation (there is not "preference" here, but an inherent orientation) secret? How can you claim that secrecy will result in "fair" treatment when the secrecy itself, the closet, is the source of unfairness?

              That said, the subtext of your comments posted here makes very clear that you believe that homosexuality is a "sin" and "bad". And your claim that gay and lesbian people make an "extreme importance of gratification sex" and preach it is utter nonsense.

              Gay people wants basic human rights including the right to love and marry and have families---just like heterosexuals.

              How is this focusing on sex?

              If it is, then all heterosexual love and marriage and family is nothing more than hyper-focus on sex.

            2. wilderness profile image94
              wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              No, what we have here is bad condemning innocent.  The gays are innocent of any wrongdoing (morally - the law obviously makes them "wrong").  The shame is that the "born again" have decided that THEY have the right to determine morality for everyone.

              For there may be a law between you and your god, but there is none to me or to a lot of folks.  You have absolutely no right to impress your imagined laws onto me, whether by means of written law or by speech.

              Really?  Gays preach sex?  Don't know where you live, but I've never heard a gay preacher man (or woman) stand up on their soapbox and preach sex.  That is left to the "born again", as they loudly tell everyone in earshot how sex should be carried out.  With megaphones, even!

              But...your post personifies what I said in the OP; it is so terribly sad that there are so many Christians out there just slavering to be able to punish and hurt others, to exert control of over others, in the name of their god.  Sad and pitiful what people will do to enforce their pretend religious laws.  Yes, religion, particularly the radical evangelistic end of it, is under the microscope and failing badly.

              1. profile image0
                mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Well said wilderness!

                And I concur: I have heard a lot of gay people talk (and preach) about a lot of things---particularly recently, but I have yet to hear one gay person talk (or preach) about sex as the bottom-line.

                The only ones obsessed with sex are religious conservatives---particularly evangelical Christians who just can't seem to go more than a sentence or two without mentioning gay sex...wink

                Wonder why?

                Was Shakespeare right?

                Does me thinks he/she doth protest too much???

                1. wilderness profile image94
                  wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Christians today might have a vastly different outlook today if not for the perversions of St. Augustine.  That poor twisted person set the tone for millenia of hurt and perversion of billions of people, both Christian and not.  As can be seen here.  Sex is such a powerful force in mankind that it is a popular method of control, but Augustine took that to new heights in his own private hell of sexual perversions and gave it to all Christians.

                  1. profile image0
                    mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Hmmm...

                    Most evangelical Christians have never heard of St Augustine and those who have discard him because of his connection to Roman Catholicism.

                    I think evangelical Christians have learned what most popular media already knows: Sex sells---particularly if they can make it as licentious and vulgar as possible...wink

  2. Kiss andTales profile image26
    Kiss andTalesposted 3 years ago

    I look to Jesus as the greatest example , He was perfect. He also explained his father to us ,his likes and dislikes. We all are sinful compared to Godly law. Written in the bible are the words found in 1 Corinthians 6:9   "Do not be mislead Neither fornicators nor idolators nor adulterers nor men kept for unnatural purposes nor men who lie with men , will inherit God's kingdom"

    Roman 1:24-28 Says it all God gave them up. But it tells he gave them up because of sexual appetites. For both female changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature. 27 says and likewise the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males working what is obscene, and receiving the recompense which was due for their error" 

    These are God's inspired words written for our instruction. 2 Timothy 3:16 says so.
    Also all things are seen by God even in the dark ,so nothing is secret ,only to human eyes .

    On the other hand I do believe in God's word that he is the forgiver of many errors. And he will forgive many as they seek to make changes ,as humans we can make needed adjustments. For the laws broken are from our Heavenly Father .
    Why is this important, because the Lord's Prayer talks about Thy kingdom Come  his will be done on earth as is in heaven. That starts with each one of us to adapt to the good and healthful teachings of Jesus, in order for us to be new citizens of the new Government mention in 2 Peter 3:13. It is up to him to accept us as new citizens ! If no change then there would be nothing New!

    1. Kiss andTales profile image26
      Kiss andTalesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      People can always learn what is right and wrong from the bile.

      1. profile image0
        mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        What I do not understand is this:

        Jesus claimed that following him was engagement with the "new and everlasting covenant with the Lord."

        This suggests that the "old covenant" of Abraham---the Old Testament covenant, then, was null and void. It is in the Old Testament that claims against homosexuality are made.

        Jesus himself makes no reference to homosexuality.

        So how is it, then, that you claim to subscribe to the "new covenant" for everything EXCEPT "the gay" for which you immediately subscribe to the nullified pre-Christ covenant?

    2. wilderness profile image94
      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, it is understood that you look to the old book for guidance, but that does NOT mean that all people either do OR need to.  Same for the people in Uganda that are so happy they can now hurt someone by jailing them for life; they get their twisted views and instructions from the same old book and demand that everyone do the same.

      It's nice you can quote things to "support" your belief, but the bottom line is that those quotes mean absolutely nothing in real life - only in your made up version of reality.  As such they are worthless to most people except as a small indication as to what to expect from you personally.  They are certainly of no value to the majority of people in the world.

      Absolutely people can learn right from wrong from the bible; it is clearly spelled out in Leviticus.  Thankfully, no one believes the old tales anymore, or finds any value in the instructions given there.  Not even the "born again" Christians do, except sometimes to hurt others; certainly not as a guideline to their OWN lives.

      1. Kiss andTales profile image26
        Kiss andTalesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        First in reply there is nothing old about something that  effects us as you speak, the bible talks about ,death, births, sickness, happiness, are these non valid also because  it was written long ago, would you say someone with a dreaded disease needs to disregard a cure because the book is old and written before their life time.? That is where people make mistakes, for God thinking is not like ours neither is his years our years, we see things humanly , many can  not see things spiritually even though he does try to help us through the bible.

        1. wilderness profile image94
          wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          The bible talks about a great deal, including immoral instructions on how to treat others and obvious falsehoods about the nature of reality.

          The the only effect it can have on most people is what it convinces the believer to do.  THAT is where the problem lies; that the believer then assumes that what their twisted concept of right and wrong is should apply to everyone.

          That is where the mistake is made; when the believer makes that assumption.

          1. Kiss andTales profile image26
            Kiss andTalesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            What is written is not the believers own words  ,but the one responsible for those words written. this is not man 's words because man is likely not to condemn hisself. Like now people will not accept this subject in the right light of God's word . quoted , if they live it don't condemn it.  This is the case as well with many other things

            1. profile image0
              mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I don't understand what you are trying to say.

            2. wilderness profile image94
              wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Are you able to comprehend that not everyone shares the fantasy of your god?  That you have no right to impose the rules that have been made up by church VIP's?  That your own biblical moral code prohibits forcing it onto others, or even condemning them for not following it?

              Is that too much, to accept that others do not share with you and have as much right to their moral code as you do to yours?

              1. profile image0
                mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                And, if I may add something:

                Accept that what has happened this week in Uganda is not the result of Christian teaching or practice.

                Accept that is is nothing more than some perverted and twisted and violent political and social assault on a minority of human  beings for no other reason than that they are a minority.

                1. wilderness profile image94
                  wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  While that is true, it will NEVER  be accepted.  Without sinners to look down upon and punish, Christianity will quickly fail.  It is necessary to feel superior to keep the masses in line; fear alone is a poor tool although effective in it's own right.  Hate and superiority are key - just ask Hitler or any other warmonger.

                  1. profile image0
                    mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I hear you.

              2. Kiss andTales profile image26
                Kiss andTalesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                This is true.  this is also written in the bible  that others will not Share the same thought and they will not accept his word,  I am not  surprise  of your statement., you have  a right to your choice no one can make you do anything or believe anything, So no one can force nothing  that is in your own power to decline ,Even God's own son Jesus could not help everyone,  but that did not stop what he had to do. And  I disagree with you on church , I never mention the word church , i do not belong to a church ,you assumed I do because I believe in the bible. So your statement does not fit accurate information.

                1. wilderness profile image94
                  wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  The Roman Church wrote your bible; you "belong" to a church because of that if for no other reason.   "Church" refers to religion in general, Christianity is specific.

                  But that has nothing to do with the question; it is only a red herring.  I apologize if I have offended by implying you belong to an organized church - I meant only that you are a Christian, following the tenets written by the church when they made the bible.

                  I also not that you did not indicate if you can understand and accept that Christians in general and you in specific have zero right to impress your morality onto others?  Do you understand that you violate God's commandment every time you try to force others into your religious beliefs?

                  1. Kiss andTales profile image26
                    Kiss andTalesposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Again I follow the word of God not  by the laws and doctrines of men. That is the difference. The tampering  and doctrines of churches , are not In Harmony  with the truth of God's will.  You keep saying force ! Explain what religious belief is forced? You can say and opinion is forced but not documentation.
                    I show you the latter. Not opinion.

  3. Kiss andTales profile image26
    Kiss andTalesposted 3 years ago

    I find it is more important what my God thinks of me then you. So even though you try to label your issues of religion on me and others, you are far from the truth. It is true that people do use religion as power to control many. But that is not the message I speak. You judge all Religion the same. But that is like saying all men are dogs because of bad  experiences. Many people have missed out on many good people with good intentions
    Because they are all label bad. This is so with the worship of the true God . I will end my post on this subject these are my last words .

    1. wilderness profile image94
      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, I know - that is what causes so much dissension, pain and hurt in the name of God.  The assumption that the religious one knows all, is always right and is competent to tell others how they must live.  Most people take a dim view of that concept, especially the religious even as they do it themselves.  Unable to learn tolerance, unable to figure out that others have as much right to their opinions as anyone else, and unable to understand that, just maybe, they don't know all, they cause enormous trouble everywhere they go with the incessant demand that everyone in the world accept their god, their morals and ethics, and their instructions on living the "right" way.  While they jail people innocent of anything but being different.

      If that fits you, accept it as is.  If not, join the rest of the world in condemning the Christians of Uganda as it most definitely fits them.

  4. Comrade Joe profile image84
    Comrade Joeposted 3 years ago

    The born again people I have known in my life rank as the most sadistic, perverse, morally bankrupt people I jave ever known.  I have never seen any christian love, only hatred, bigotry and reaction.

    With that said, all anger should not be directed at Ugandan's.  They have been made victim of American imperialism.  It is the American "missionaries" which have implanted this hatred and reaction in Uganda. 

    In recent times I have seen a lot of western liberals express outrage at the new law, and it is an outrageous law.  However, signing online petitions etc does nothing.  Instead, it is incumbent to challenge in your own country all tax exemptions and charitable status of religions - that is what facilitates their missionaries spread of the disease of bigotry.

    1. wilderness profile image94
      wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      You are mistaken about American Imperialism; that a few missionaries try to control the lives of foreign nationals does not mean that America does.  You are putting the sins of a few onto the many.

      1. profile image0
        mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Exactly.

        I am very tired not only of claims that what is going on in Uganda (and other African nations) is a function of some sort of US "imperialism", but also some form of leftover European colonialism of the last century.

        What is going on is a complex conflation of deeply right-wing and indigenous regional politics coupled with deeply-rooted indigenous cultural values and traditions.

        1. wilderness profile image94
          wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I don't even see it as that.  No politics, just an immoral grab at power and control of others, often in direct violation of the laws of the land.  More "Live as I say, become as I am, for I am a better person than you and know how you should live".

          1. profile image0
            mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I hear you. I was being generous with my use of the term "politics".

            1. wilderness profile image94
              wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Rather sad, but it is after all a keystone of modern Christianity.

      2. Comrade Joe profile image84
        Comrade Joeposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        "You are putting the sins of a few onto the many."

        Not in the slightest.  I am not blaming the great masses of the US.  But am rather attacking your ruling class and it's state.  Your bourgeois government make laws advantageous to that ruling class, such as tax breaks and charitable status.  This in turn leads to "missionary" work abroad, which results in the governments in the weaker country producing   laws like this, which also coincide with the ideology of their own ruling class, whom they dually serve.

        1. profile image0
          mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          So what about RUSSIA and its elite, its ruling class, its bourgeois and their complicity in the remaking of sub-Saharan Africa after years of Soviet and now Russian imperialism and colonialism?

          Or is that just excused away because the USSR made, and Russia makes, claims to some sort of 20th century perversion of communism to which you subscribe?

          1. Comrade Joe profile image84
            Comrade Joeposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I don't know why you keep going on about Russia.  Russia is as capitalistic as any country these days.  I have absolutely zero allegiance to modern Russia.  However, I do not believe Russian missionaries are prevalent in Africa, spreading their bile.  Are they?  If they were, I'd condemn them.

            And regardless, even if they were, that would be no defense of the US.  Just because someone else does the same bad thing as you, does not make it right.

            1. profile image0
              mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              For the record: Russian missionaries---Evangelical Christians are present and operating in sub-Saharan Africa---particularly South Africa.

        2. wilderness profile image94
          wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Well now, that's pretty silly and shows an almost absolute ignorance of how the US works. 

          See, this country has what is called "separation of church and state", meaning the government cannot establish a religion.  Not even somewhere else, and all those things you think the nasty "bourgeois government" gives out does not go to fund missionary work overseas.  That comes from donations from private citizens wishing to spread their mythology over the world.

          1. profile image0
            mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Thank you wilderness.

            I was going to bring this up, but I got lost in the fact that "Comrade Joe" decorates his profile with that famous hammer and sickle of the USSR and notes that he has "no allegiance to modern Russia" but that he claims (in one of his published hubs) that it is Ukraine that is led by fascists.

          2. profile image0
            mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            And yes, I would say the post demonstrates an absolute ignorance of even the basic mechanisms of our system here in the US.

            Then again, I don't think they teach history and government at all in the UK, let alone US history and government.

            1. wilderness profile image94
              wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              You might be right about the teaching, although to be honest I thought the US was tops in the field when it came to citizen's ignorance of other countries.

              1. profile image0
                mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                No...believe it or not, it is actually much worse in the UK and in other parts of the world where they have abandoned all teaching of history and government and civics.

                1. wilderness profile image94
                  wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Naw - that's not possible.  You can't know less than zero, and when US citizens can't point out their own state of Idaho on a map you can't get less than that.  Heck, the only "Idaho" most US citizens know is the lettering on a bag of potatoes.

    2. profile image0
      mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      So...what about RUSSIAN imperialism and RUSSIAN colonization of sub-Saharan Africa?

      Are you willing to credit the RUSSIANS as well---who now within their own country are demonstrating deep-seated anti-gay politics and policies, with enabling the twisted politics of Uganda OR is this just more of the blame American first and always crap?

    3. EncephaloiDead profile image61
      EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      "Academy Award-winning filmmaker Roger Ross Williams explores the role of the American Evangelical movement in fueling Uganda's terrifying turn towards biblical law and the proposed death penalty for homosexuality in this enlightening but shocking exposé."

      "A searing look at the role of American evangelical missionaries in the persecution of gay Africans"

      http://www.godlovesuganda.com/

      1. profile image0
        mbuggiehposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Again, American evangelical missionaries are NOT the entire story, but part of a very long and complex story.

        1. EncephaloiDead profile image61
          EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          "A few, however, go off the deep end, notably Scott Lively, an American anti-gay activist and evangelical minister who has prominently worked in Uganda. The film strongly implies that his talks there on the evils of the gay agenda, beginning in 2009, led directly to the current anti-gay hysteria. Lively is on record as having uttered some mind-boggling stuff, such as that gays were largely responsible for Nazism. Never mind that, in reality, homosexuals were among the victims demonized — and exterminated — by the Nazis.

          Whatever the state of homophobia in Uganda — which Kaoma likens to an incipient wildfire — “God Loves Uganda” clearly lays the blame for it at the feet of the American evangelical movement. The movie doesn’t really argue its case, preferring to stand back, in quiet outrage, as the representatives of that movement are shown with the match in their hands."

          http://www.washingtonpost.com/goingoutg … story.html

 
working