It's funny but after all the crap the US armed forces went through over Abu Gharib and abusing suspected terrorists, it would seem that prisoner abuse is endemic.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090717/ap_ … ison_abuse
Of course, for anyone who knows anything, it's long been known that putting even a group of seeming normal people (guards) in charge of others (prisoners) leads to abuses.
The above link tells the story of the Stanford Prison and Milgram experiments. They took a group of college kids and divided them into two groups, one guards, one prisoners. The guards, most of whom never showed sadistic tendencies, became devotes of the Maquis de Sade during the experiments. This quote, "It's not that we put bad apples in a good barrel. We put good apples in a bad barrel. The barrel corrupts anything that it touches.", in particular struck a chord with me.
This study proves that people cannot be trusted with power. I'd argue that not only can they not be trusted in guard/prisoner roles, but any role in which people are given the power to decide the fate of another. In effect, the power goes to their head.
The Milgram experiments support this view. In fact, those experiments go a long way to explaining the actions and reactions of Germans and Jews during the Holocaust. Which is why, I suppose, many Nuremberg defendants used the "I was only following orders" excuse. It also explains how otherwise normal kids can participate in atrocities. When it's all around you, you tend to just take cues from the environment.
What's the point of all of this? Nothing much. I just found it interesting that some of the people most loudly bemoaning the "criminal" activities of American soldiers are now guilty themselves of perpetuating the horror themselves. And it's a warning to the rest of us who might be complacent and think we're above doing that. We shouldn't be that sure. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I'd even argue that it's not only guard/prisoner relationships that are susceptible to this kind of abuse, but any relationship in which one person can compel another. Something to ponder I think, especially when we're considering giving so much power to those in government.
I've read about this. That's why our tripartite form of government is so brilliant. Two branches of government are supposed to hold the third branch in check. It worked for a time, but these days everything is as scrambled as it ever could be.
It's important for people to know about these experiments. Thanks for bringing it up tech.
No problem, I found it kind of interesting. Actually I think all three branches were supposed to fight amongst each other so much, they wouldn't have time or energy to infringe on our freedoms. It held up for a while, but those days are long behind us.
Have you seen (or read) "The Reader?" It makes astute observations on the phenomenon. Perhaps those who would be guards are more likely to have the personality traits that lead to abuse of others.
No I haven't but if I understood the way the "guards" and "prisoners" were chosen it was pretty much a double blind so you wouldn't necessarily get the sadistic kids as guards and the submissive kids as prisoners. Besides I have a hard time believing you can take a random sample of kids and get 99% of them to be chosen as guards who were also sadists.
I recommend the film.
It is sad if this is true. However, there will always be a few who can judge right from wrong. With that, there is hope.
I know what my decision would be, but I'm almost certain that my thought processes are different than most people. I wouldn't rationalize torture that way. If I tortured, it would be because I made the choice, not because someone told me it was OK to do so. Heck even the Holocaust had those who were willing to die to do the right thing. I can't help but try to emulate their courage myself.
Providing there is no right or wrong, hope it is
Wait till you get a real socialism here. You'll have lots of observation material - providing you manage to escape...
It reminds me of an experiment done where a piece of fruit like a bannana was put into a jar and presented to a monkey.The monkey had to put his hand into the jar to remove the fruit,but he couldn't remove his hand while he also held the fruit. In fact he would rather die from being attacked than let go of that fruit.Interesting experiment.Humans are like that too.
Well, both you and I know that revolutions rarely lead to planned outcome, at least on a populace level
LOL I gave it up long ago, and replaced it with the risk analysis. Serves me quite well since
You can still hope, Misha, that doesn't mean you don't plan for the worst.
Don't believe the church and state,
and everything they offer.
Believe in me,
I'm with the High Command!
There's a gun and ammunition,
Just inside the doorway.
Use it only in emergency...
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