One more "Name recognition " seeking failing comic ?
" I'm Sorry But " ? I'm sorry butts don't cut it ?
Seeing this in the left media ?
I read where she claimed to be trying to 'reclaim' the word. I don't know how, or why you would, want to own a filthy and degrading term. So you can say 'oh, that's my filthy word'??
Just admit you're low class and uncivilized. Move on.
Reclaimation of offensive words is not new, the clearest examples being the LGBTQ taking “queer” and turning it into something positive, and African Americans taking... well, you know, and using it casually amongst themselves. Words have whatever power you choose to give them - if you take something that’s offensive and you refuse to give it that power and instead shape it into something else then you’ve taken some of the power away from the people who use it as well.
That said I don’t think “c*nt” is nearly as problematic as either of those examples as it’s not really been used as thoroughly to disparage women on a large scale. And I don’t think that’s what Samantha Bee was doing as reclaiming it would involve using it in a positive way rather than an insulting way.
Look, she’s a comedian. Comedians say offensive and stupid stuff allllllll the time. Shock value is part of the gig for lots of them. But for some reason it seems to be most problematic when it’s women making the jokes, have you noticed?
Really? Humor can be found in that word? It's a filthy and degrading word. Of course a woman using it would be considered offensive. And, yes, I'm aware of the prolific use of an offensive word by African Americans. That, to me, is as ignorant as this example. We aren't going to change the meaning of a word. All we do is create division by the use. I don't see the good in that.
Absolutely. Ever seen George Carlin's bit? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbZhpf3sQxQ
Of course we change meaning of words. Look up the euphemism treadmill for a number of words (like "retarded") that used to be innocuous but are now off-limits. The less we use these words the more power we give them. This entire phenomenon was illustrated in Harry Potter using Voldemort and the "he who must not be named" thing.
Actually, I think we can create division by forbidding the use of words or language. The n-word is a great example of a word that had its power taken away as it was reclaimed. The problem is that society does not deem it fit to give that word back to everyone. This results in African Americans being able to use that word in a variety of contexts (including towards non-African Americans), while non-African Americans cannot use the same word at all, not even in positive or neutral contexts. Naturally this creates division, but at its worst can also lead to accusations of racism or hate crime charges just for referencing the word: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-43816921
I think it's infinitely better to allow people the freedom to use whatever words they choose even in negative contexts.
I'm am advocate of freedom of speech and speech can be used to show a lack of complete decency....but lack of freedom is never better.
But, be realistic. The n word lost its power and negativity? Are you serious? As a yellow lab, please find the nearest group of black labs...step into the group and use that word. Tell me how that goes.
Fantasy never trumps reality. Not in the real world. And, word of caution, as a male dog never step up to a female one and use the c word. It's never going to go well for you.
The greatest abusers ARE the free speech advocates . At the same time insulting human decency hypocritically crying for more free speech rights or ONLY legislation for those opposing opinions to theirs ?
The word lost its power only when used among African Americans, and only to a certain degree. If you'll read the rest of the paragraph, you'll note I give an example of someone being charged just for quoting a rap song. I'm under no delusions as to the word holding a tremendous amount of power over people, including legal power.
I'm not sure what you think is fantasy. There's already been a few examples of words that have changed their meaning/become more accepted in this thread.
I called my female dog a bitch plenty of times, does that count?
The definition of female dog is bitch so I don't see a point. Honestly, if you called a dog that c word, it would not offend the dog. If you know human females who don't care if you use that name for them that is between you and them.
It's a joke...you told me not to call female dogs the "c-word" and I played on that.
I agree with this. I am occasionally offended by words but I always tell myself I'm glad that person has a right to say whatever they want.
Of course, we also have the right to like/dislike that person's words and consequences might follow, sometimes very negative consequences.
You are a much more generous person than I am PrettyPanther. I always tell myself I'm glad I'm not an asshole like that person is. (how about "asshole" - sounding more okay to say, more normalized yet?)
Lol, I think you used it to great effect, which is what language is for, isn't it?
Edited to add: I've met a great many assholes who never swear or use disparaging slang. I've also met a great many kind and generous souls who frequently use the f word. Words are for expression and they do matter, but they matter much more for certain people (like the U.S. President) and certain situations (like comedy vs. a resident's Twitter feed).
Of course you are right that the purpose of words, (language), is to communicate. Just as the choice of words does.
I think the words we choose are, generally, indicators of our respect for the receiver of those words. Even in such cases as those "kind and generous souls" you mentioned, where no great disrespect for their listener would be understood as intended, can you deny that the inference of their use is a measurement of respect? Would those same folks say F*ck in a conversation with the Pope? Their grandmother? A young child?
ps. that "pass" wasn't a full immunity. This Trump reference was a bit of a push
Yes, I agree that use of those words can indicate disrespect toward the receiver. I'm just saying that context matters. Comedians, by their very nature, take on authority and societal norms. They can be offensive when they cross the line (yes, everyone has a different line), but that comes with the territory.
I'll just leave it at that.
Of course it's just my opinion mrpopo, but what a crock of shit. (is "shit" sounding a little less offensive yet?)
I don't think the n-word has lost it's power. And I don't think anyone is being "forbidden" to use such words. There may be societal pressure to influence their choice, but they are not being forbidden. I also don't think the n-word has become acceptable for common usage in the Black community either - except by a subset of that community. I recall hearing, (I know, it's anecdotal), several Black voices decry it's usage by members of their group.
But of course, as I mentioned earlier, that's just my opinion, and who the f*ck am I to pass judgement on your thoughts. (how's that "f*ck" sounding now, a little more normal?)
GA, it appears you are adopting my technique of using the "accepted" behavior to demonstrate its consequences. Hmmm...
A good effort GA, but you need to do a lot more than that to desensitize a word.
Try this on for size: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9AT3jjAP0Y
Or this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eT0nZUROQ8
Ok fine - the n-word has lost some of its power, when used among African Americans, and only to a certain degree (I thought me using it as "n-word" made that obvious). Now read the rest of the paragraph, where I talk about the word's power being used to punish people. Sounds an awful lot like "forbidden" to me. But the crux of my argument is about that societal pressure you refer to. Call it "forbidden" or "very strongly discouraged with a good chance for negative consequences", as PrettyPanther alluded to.
Even among the subset of the African American community that doesn't like the word, they still allow other African Americans to use the word. I defer to LtL's challenge - as a yellow lab, try using the word among black labs and see how far you get.
I am not suggesting that we use these words to the point of removing all of their power. I am suggesting we don't get so sensitized to words that a comedian can't use them*, or someone can't quote lyrics to a song without facing backlash. In that sense I don't see it as waddling around in poop so it stinks less (why is shit offensive and not poop?) - I see it as inoculating oneself to the effects of these words. Again, these are words. They're not offensive unless we treat them that way.
*In Samantha Bee's case (and most of the other examples given by Aime) I don't think people are actually offended. This is just an attack on Trump by-proxy, and consequently, the response is a counter-attack on the left by-proxy. At least I hope that's the case.
Thanks for the links mrpopo. It is clear that I don't have that kind of stamina, so I guess my "normalization" efforts are done. Which is a relief, because as wussy as it sounds, I really didn't like my own meager efforts.
To offer a little clarity, my responses weren't intended to be criticisms of the words themselves, but to the message the choice of words carried. As I noted, I do understand that the "message" is entirely a societal and generational thing. Morals are never absolute, and my perception of societal norms, even when they comport with generally accepted norms, are still no more than just my norms.
I think your discussion of the euphemistic "n-word" is a good example of that point. But I don't think that agreement, and confession, changes the fact, (as I see it), that the choice of words is a message beyond that carried by the word chosen.
I don't blame you. South Park is not everyone's cup of tea.
"the choice of words is a message beyond that carried by the word chosen"
I think you hit the nail on the head. The only thing I'd add (which you alluded to) is that we can choose those words in certain contexts to change that message over time.
Now I don't really care to do so with the words on Carlin's list as they fit the function of a swear word. Like it or not, removing the power of these expletives would create a void that'd need to be replaced with other expletives. This word evolution happens naturally anyway - words like "sucks" and "jerks" used to be very offensive. And the "c-word" itself was historically a neutral or positive word (and still can be in places like Australia and the UK).
But words that target specific groups based on immutable characteristics? Those words would be ideal candidates for reclamation. If we can intentionally disarm the word's power by changing the message behind it, I don't see why we shouldn't.
I haven't noticed that (although I'm not familiar with most female comedians). The last case I heard of about a problematic joke was Count Dankula making a Nazi joke. He faced jail time but ended up with a fine of £800 + having to pay all his legal fees.
Kathy Griffin, Michelle Wolf, Roseanne, and now Samantha Bee have all been heavily criticized and subjects of social media outrage recently and I can’t think of any male counterparts (recently) that have come under fire for saying anything crude to such an extent. Maybe female comedians have just become more outspoken... or maybe men have suddenly stopped saying offensive things ...I don’t know. But people seem to become ESPECIALLY riled up when a female comedian dares to insult another woman.
Kathy's insult was directed at Trump and had violent imagery. The outrage over Roseanne's insult was over the suspected racism. I don't think those two fit the pattern.
We'd need to compare other male comedians insulting women to see if there's a double standard. I can't think of any comedians going after women as crudely as the examples you cite. Daniel Tosh did receive backlash for his rape joke targeting a woman in his audience, but that was like 10 years ago.
That’s a fair point. Maybe the double standard is actually present in the target of the jokes/insults rather than who’s throwing them. I found it interesting that Michelle Wolf went in 10000x harder on several men during her roast but it was her comments on Sarah Sanders (and to a lesser extent Kellyanne) that got the most negative attention.
Reclaiming the C-word? Geesh! I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at such a rationalization when in these times the F-word, or F*ck, or WTF, have become so socially acceptable in everyday conversation.
A thought occurred, and like my past errors, I can't just let it go: There is the reality that the more you are around shit, the less it stinks, (or the less you notice the stink). It still stinks as badly as when first smelled, and it is still shit, but after a bit more exposure ... it ain't so bad.
That is what this reclamation rationalization looks like to me. That something becomes 'normalized' doesn't make it right. At least that's what I think. But WTF do I know.
I agree with your last paragraph, but I don't get too worked up over what a comedian says. The leader of the free world, though? Yeah, I worry about his behavior becoming so normalized that we're burdened with some variation of his "type" forever.
Not only that, but Spanky being intentionally late for two meetings at the G7 Summit sends a message to the other countries he doesn't give a damn about protocol, just like he does at home. What a low class dipshit he is!
Doo do Dooo do do dooooo do . Come on Randy , twilight zone ......get real with the late for breakfast crap , The Us economy is twice what the combined G-7 can offer , but the US is supposed to bite the bullet with thousand percent tariffs from it's "close neighbors "?
Get outraged over something serious will you .
I also don't get "too worked up" over what a comedian says PrettyPanther. But I am getting a bit worked-up over some of these rationalizations and explanations.
Although this issue of normalizing or rationalizing crude, (I am fully aware that "crude" is in the eye of the beholder), behavior pre-dates Pres. Trump, I suppose the "normalization" aspect of the conversation did give you the opening you needed to slide that Trump reference into a non-Trump thread. (*You may pass.)
Sure, but don't you think context is relevant to this conversation? A President insulting citizens via Twitter versus a comedian insulting a famous person in a comedy routine?
I do. I could have used a different example to contrast the context, but the point would be the same.
I do think context is important PrettyPanther, that is why you got the "pass" for your Trump inclusion. It was an appropriate fit to the conversation regarding normalization of socially perceived negatives.
And to continue with the "Trump" connection, I have another thought, (hell, why let one go now, I stuck with all the others :-)).
I think it is clear that Samantha Bee's comment was intentionally constructed to carry no more meaning or purpose than to be insulting. I wonder if the same can be said of the offensive Trump comments you are referencing? Thinking about a few of the worst that come to mind, I don't see them as being in league with Samantha Bee's comment. In the neighborhood maybe, which fits your reference to context, but not of the same caliber.
I agree, Spanky's insults carry more weight, GA!
I think Trump's insults are of far greater calibre because they come from the President of the United States (or, in some cases, when he was a candidate for president). To me, that makes them far worse, regardless of whether they had any greater purpose beyond simple insults.
The left went far beyond civility years ago , Liberals ....--being obviously very liberal and ever more so now are engaging in all this shock jock discourse . Yet profess outrage at simple oppositional ideas ? ........Makes it all hard to believe. I get the usual hate mail here and it bothers me not but I am slightly baffled by the acceptance of such naked hypocrisy from the left .
The way I see it, words are just words. I’m not offended by any particular word because it is just letters strung together. How you use that word is where it gets its power. I’m totally unbothered by someone dropping f-bombs in casual conversation. I’m not offended by any average curse word because they’re usually not specific to anything at all. Racial slurs are another story as the words themselves have inherent malice. But that’s where the reclaimation might come in.
I’ve been called the c-word multiple times myself and I didn’t really find it any more offensive than had I been called any other name meant to imply that someone was very unhappy with me!
Sorry, that may have been me. I didn't mean anything by it, I was just drunk.
I agree that many times words are intended to be no more than the general meaning of the letters that were strung together to make it, Aime. And I agree with your intended malice thought also.
But ..I disagree that the choice of words used carries no more communication than just a string of letters intended to stand for a certain meaning. Consider my earlier mentioned thought; Do you think those friends that casually use the f-word in general conversation would use it in a conversation with a grandmother or young child? I don't think I am such a dinosaur as to guess that they would not. So the question is that if they view the word as so innocent, then why not?
I think we choose our words with purpose. If multiple words mean the same thing, then I think the choice of which word is used also carries a meaning.
I am not talking about being offended by words. Words don't offend me either, but the message of their choice could. I don't see the actual word c*nt as offensive - as you say, it's just a string of letters, but I do think the intent of its use is. F*ck doesn't offend me either, but a speaker's use of it might - if they understood I didn't see the word as being as innocent as they did. Then the continued use of it is the same as saying I don't give a shit, (innocent yet?), what you think. And that is a disrespectful arrogance that I might find offensive.
To think that words carry no more meaning than the sum of their letters would imply that the conversational use of vagina carries the same intended communication as c*nt. Which word is more indicative of a measurement of respect for the listener?
But wait... when considering these thoughts, don't forget my lead-in sentence. I don't mean to say that all word choices are intentionally made to carry a specific intent. But I do think that they all do - whether intended or not.
As an older American , one who believes in social , cultural ,moral decency and being a sometimes rabid political junkie , I am so happy that all of this TDS language has morphed into this pop culture and particularly this culture here on hubpages . Every single derogatory term used by particularly the left anti-Trump pundit proves exactly what I've always stated about the left ;
These and more ARE all deeply held personality characteristics of the left , the utter and naked hypocrisy of this is paramount in understanding the ideology of their politics , their cultural maturity , their political obstruction.
While the left in America claims intellectualism they display nothing but naked hypocrisy and lack of intellectualism , their ideology is symbolically the throwing of a grenade into the conversation . The N-word , the C-word , or any of the above are the weapons of that , make no mistake.
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