Ten Things I Hate About You - Freedom: In the Eye of the Beholder

Jump to Last Post 1-3 of 3 discussions (70 posts)
  1. GA Anderson profile image92
    GA Andersonposted 5 months ago

    I have found a kindred spirit in Joseph Mussomeli.

    This essay is about a Moderate's view of the political extremes of the Left and Right. It is a good read I recommend to all.

    Ten Things I Hate About You

    4. Freedom: In the Eye of the Beholder?
    "Sometimes I wonder if those on the extremes really have any idea what freedom means. A core concept of freedom is to just be left the hell alone, especially from government oversight. For this reason, I was appalled when the Supreme Court back in 1986 (Bowers v. Hardwick) ruled as constitutional anti-sodomy laws. How, I wondered, could any sane men and women think that in a free land you can dictate to adult citizens what kind of sex they have or with whom they have it? But I was equally appalled more recently when those same liberals who would criticize the Court for trying to tell people whom they can sleep with fervently believe that that same government should tell a baker whom he must bake a cake for, regardless of his deep-seated religious beliefs. The hypocrisy on both sides is stunning. We see this same nonsense played out over and over again.

    Certain conservatives are outraged that the government should try to tell them what they can do or not do with their property or what weapons they can and cannot own, yet at the same time salivate at the prospect of a Constitutional Amendment that would deny protesters the legal ability to burn the American flag—as if the flag were more important than the freedom it symbolizes. As if it is not obvious that the only flag a free people should ever honor and embrace is one that can be burned and desecrated.

    The Left is no better. When leftist student fascists block conservative speakers from giving lectures and when citizens are told they have no right to speak on certain issues or wear certain items or use certain words because they are not the right gender or the right complexion, how can the Left ever be respected, trusted, or even taken seriously?"



    GA

    1. Live to Learn profile image80
      Live to Learnposted 5 months agoin reply to this

      Yep. Definitely a kindred spirit.

  2. PrettyPanther profile image81
    PrettyPantherposted 5 months ago

    Okay, I know I am of the liberal persuasion so naturally see more "right" in the liberal viewpoint, but....

    I just can't see how telling a business that they can't discriminate based on sexual orientation is just as intrusive as telling people what kind of sex they can't have. No matter how hard I think about it, I just don't  see it.

    1. Credence2 profile image80
      Credence2posted 5 months agoin reply to this

      That is open to a fundamental right of public accommodations to discriminate against race, gender and anything else.

      I am with you, as not seeing any correlation between telling people what sex they can have and not allowing for discrimination, the conservative point of view is weak here.

      1. Live to Learn profile image80
        Live to Learnposted 5 months agoin reply to this

        roll

        I suppose you also support the causing a business to close down because the owner couldn't give a Brazilian wax to a male body part on a transgender woman?

        1. PrettyPanther profile image81
          PrettyPantherposted 5 months agoin reply to this

          First I heard of it. Did you make it up?

          1. Live to Learn profile image80
            Live to Learnposted 5 months agoin reply to this

            Wish I had made it up.

            1. PrettyPanther profile image81
              PrettyPantherposted 5 months agoin reply to this

              I googled it and this issue is in Canada, and I saw nothing about a particular business being forced to close.
              https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/trans-w … 20806.html

              But why are you sticking your nose in Canada's business anyway? I thought you were with Mike on his position that foreigners shouldn't comment on U.S. affairs? Doesn't the reverse also apply?

        2. Credence2 profile image80
          Credence2posted 5 months agoin reply to this

          Yessum, Mistress Live to Learn, I would be more than happy to sit at the back of the bus because you are offended....

          Conservatives continue to irritate me, I don't care about your consciences, if you operate a public accommodation, you had better serve everyone equally or else. I am certain to be quite litigious if I get trouble in this regard.

          If the person could not stomach the procedure, perhaps he or she should get an associate or find another line of work.

          You come up with all this off the wall stuff completely ignoring the principle involved.

          1. Live to Learn profile image80
            Live to Learnposted 5 months agoin reply to this

            You, in my opinion, ignore the principle involved. But I get it. It's the big city attitude that laws are meant to trample individual freedoms.

            When one starts with that as the premise, all atrocities are possible.

            1. Credence2 profile image80
              Credence2posted 5 months agoin reply to this

              Your so called "individual freedom" trampled me and mine subjecting a group of people to horrendous atrocity that was only relieved by the force of law. If the Petticoat Junction crowd is accepting of that, then we remain at odds.

              1. Live to Learn profile image80
                Live to Learnposted 5 months agoin reply to this

                The victim mentality, borrowed from people who actually were victims, is certainly necessary in justifying current atrocities.

                1. Credence2 profile image80
                  Credence2posted 5 months agoin reply to this

                  So, with your attitude what is to keep them from being victims again?

                  1. Live to Learn profile image80
                    Live to Learnposted 5 months agoin reply to this

                    It isn't them. That's what I usually find offensive about your arguments. Only your specific identity group appears to matter, to you, when talking about equality and fairness.

                    You appear to assume the only thing about society that ensures equality are laws shoving people into fair mindedness. I say, as a society, it has been our penchant for open disagreement and discussion that has allowed us to continuously evolve to more and more inclusiveness.

                    But, the victim mentality just keeps looking back, further and further, as current and evolving conditions prove an inability to support the claim of victim status.

                    That victim mentality appears to believe it is justified to create new victims. I disagree, but that is because even though you have made it crystal clear you scoff at the struggles of women to gain fair treatment and equality, I know you are just allowing yourself to ignore any struggle but the one you can relate to, personally. I come from a class that was once second class. I am not a victim because I embrace the knowledge that we have moved past that. Permanently. Or so it seemed.

                    Now, thanks to people like you we are in jeopardy of becoming victims again. You are willing to negate our freedoms in order to create a new class with illogical and scientifically unsupportable ideas.

                    But, that's ok with you. Because it doesn't affect you.  Fast forward 25 years. If we give those such as you who cannot see that equality is for everyone free rein, we'll just keep creating victims. It'll just roll around and around. You, and many like you, push an agenda that sounds more like retribution for imagined slights than an agenda of real inclusivity.

                    And if your version of inclusivity is for those you agree with on some issues and exclusivity of others then tell me. What are you really pushing?

              2. GA Anderson profile image92
                GA Andersonposted 5 months agoin reply to this

                Are you having a bad morning buddy? You usually leave a little room between a strident response and one that introduces race and insults.

                GA

                1. Credence2 profile image80
                  Credence2posted 5 months agoin reply to this

                  Many of the concepts are interlaced, like trying to get your omelet without breaking an egg or two. Terse and direct perhaps but no insult.  If bringing up race as a bellweather of real "freedom" in America is insulting, then we have a problem with oversensitivity. That is the most obvious litmus test for me to perform.

                  1. GA Anderson profile image92
                    GA Andersonposted 5 months agoin reply to this

                    Introducing race wasn't the insult, that was just a distracting interjection.  "Pettycoat Junction folks" was the insult--at least as I read its context. And I think it is a fair illustration of the point of the OP.

                    As for your "litmus test," isn't that the same as making a membership card criteria?

                    Even idiots can make sense once in a while. Think about what you might miss by using your litmus test to open or close your mind.

                    GA

      2. GA Anderson profile image92
        GA Andersonposted 5 months agoin reply to this

        If another example had been used for comparison regarding hypocrisy on both sides, would you have disagreed that there is hypocrisy on both sides?

        Or are you just taking issue with degrees?

        As a side note; I think you will find many good Americans that feel a forced violation of their religious beliefs is just as serious as some other good Americans feel it is unacceptable to have forced government intrusion into their sex lives.

        GA

        1. Credence2 profile image80
          Credence2posted 5 months agoin reply to this

          GA, If you want to operate in the public sphere, you are going to have make accommodations, otherwise stay in your monastery.

          1. GA Anderson profile image92
            GA Andersonposted 5 months agoin reply to this

            I agree with you on that point Cred.

            It was not a good choice for comparison, but it still carried the intended message.

            GA

            1. Credence2 profile image80
              Credence2posted 5 months agoin reply to this

              Thank you.

    2. GA Anderson profile image92
      GA Andersonposted 5 months agoin reply to this

      "equally" might not have been the best word choice, but, as in the rest of his essay, the author spoke in generalities. I understood the point he made - hypocrisy.

      Whether the comparisons rated an equal degree of condemnation is certainly a judgment call.

      GA

      1. PrettyPanther profile image81
        PrettyPantherposted 5 months agoin reply to this

        I don't see it as a matter of degrees. I see one as anti-discrimination and the other as pure government overreach into our private lives.

        But, I acknowledge that you see them as similar .

  3. Credence2 profile image80
    Credence2posted 5 months ago

    Certain conservatives are outraged that the government should try to tell them what they can do or not do with their property or what weapons they can and cannot own, yet at the same time salivate at the prospect of a Constitutional Amendment that would deny protesters the legal ability to burn the American flag—as if the flag were more important than the freedom it symbolizes. As if it is not obvious that the only flag a free people should ever honor and embrace is one that can be burned and desecrated.
    ----------
    “I just can't see how telling a business that they can't discriminate based on sexual orientation is just as intrusive as telling people what kind of sex they can't have. No matter how hard I think about it, I just don't  see it.”
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You began the thread, surely you know that discrimination is a central theme of such a line of inquiry.

    I may well be seen as a “militant” with a machete looking for an opportunity to hack anyone. That is not true. I am nice guy. The forums are a source of enlightenment and education, with a serious idea of attempting to understand contrary points of view. It is not personal, while everybody is quick to pat themselves on the back, who is the devil’s advocate? Like, any human being, I am complex entity with many sides.

    Certain people without naming names complain about participation of others in these forums that do not reside in the United States. Are we afraid of differing ideas and perspectives, or do we just want to be told whatever it is we want to hear?

    I am an admirer of the late writer and Civil rights activist, James Baldwin, I operate in that vein.

    GA, ask the rising intolerance, why it would march in public display of blatant Anti-Semitism such not seen for over 60 years? Instead of moving forward, why would it continue to “cling to the past” honoring secessionists, traitors and slavers, virtually rioting in favor of keeping their statues in the public square? Why do we have to have the Emmitt Till memorial ( a teen murdered 65 years ago) encased in titanium to protect it from blatant desecration? I am the only one that is supposed to forget, but there are a lots of knuckleheads, as you call them, that seem to remember. But most were not alive and could not possible remember, but they attack a symbol of a principle, anyway.  You had no explanation as to why the FBI (an American institution) created a category of Black terrorist that was not justified by the facts on the ground? I am not talking about the Dark Ages, but right now.

    So, the question remains, who is moving forward? I am very patient with all, just show me that we are not moving backwards. My group has more reason to be suspicious, but if you honestly take a step forward, we will too.

    I said “inequities” based on discrimination, not based on the fact that unseen circumstances can befall anyone of us.

    Did not mean to hijack your thread, sorry.....

    1. GA Anderson profile image92
      GA Andersonposted 5 months agoin reply to this

      No worries, you didn't hijack it. As for answering you, that seems a bit dangerous to me. As a white man, there are all kinds of stupid things that might tumble out.

      How many forward-moving changes might be found between the times of separate water fountains to times of a Black president?

      We had knuckleheads back then and we have knuckleheads now. The question might be do we have more or less of them now, and will we have even less of them in the future?

      Obviously, we are still searching for perfect, but have we accomplished any good?

      GA

      1. Credence2 profile image80
        Credence2posted 5 months agoin reply to this

        "No worries, you didn't hijack it. As for answering you, that seems a bit dangerous to me. As a white man, there are all kinds of stupid things that might tumble out."

        No worries, you're allowed.... as is anybody else that seek answers and understanding. We both know that the only dumb question is the one not asked..

        Yes, things have improved at lot since I was a kid, I just hope that those changes have taken root rather than being a just veneer that with enough negative energy (current political climate) could be easily dislodged bringing back all the demons that we thought were chased away.

        It is just disappointing that there seems to be more knuckleheads and beyond that, that they been emboldened and strident. Are people just suppressing their actual views and outlook, waiting for an "enabler" to give tacit permission to now express?

        No, I am not immediately affected, as no one has burned a cross on my lawn. The question is :is society really repentant of the past transgressions, so that I can have confidence the old ways won't return.

        Sort of like the discussion we had regarding the Electoral College, while the likelyhood of this institution turning into an enemy of Democracy is remote, the possibility is there.

        I like to see things like this made as improbable as possible, even though perfection can never be attainable. We are not THeRe yet, and can't rest on our laurels.

        1. GA Anderson profile image92
          GA Andersonposted 5 months agoin reply to this

          You have made my day Cred. That was an excellently reasoned response.

          I think the following two paragraphs really nailed our current times:

          "Yes, things have improved at lot since I was a kid, I just hope that those changes have taken root rather than being a just veneer that with enough negative energy (current political climate) could be easily dislodged bringing back all the demons that we thought were chased away.

          It is just disappointing that there seems to be more knuckleheads and beyond that, that they been emboldened and strident. Are people just suppressing their actual views and outlook, waiting for an "enabler" to give tacit permission to now express?"


          As tenuous as some of our forward progress may seem, I do think much of it has taken root.

          There is hope for you yet . . .  ;-)

          GA

 
working

This website uses cookies

As a user in the EEA, your approval is needed on a few things. To provide a better website experience, hubpages.com uses cookies (and other similar technologies) and may collect, process, and share personal data. Please choose which areas of our service you consent to our doing so.

For more information on managing or withdrawing consents and how we handle data, visit our Privacy Policy at: https://maven.io/company/pages/privacy

Show Details
Necessary
HubPages Device IDThis is used to identify particular browsers or devices when the access the service, and is used for security reasons.
LoginThis is necessary to sign in to the HubPages Service.
Google RecaptchaThis is used to prevent bots and spam. (Privacy Policy)
AkismetThis is used to detect comment spam. (Privacy Policy)
HubPages Google AnalyticsThis is used to provide data on traffic to our website, all personally identifyable data is anonymized. (Privacy Policy)
HubPages Traffic PixelThis is used to collect data on traffic to articles and other pages on our site. Unless you are signed in to a HubPages account, all personally identifiable information is anonymized.
Amazon Web ServicesThis is a cloud services platform that we used to host our service. (Privacy Policy)
CloudflareThis is a cloud CDN service that we use to efficiently deliver files required for our service to operate such as javascript, cascading style sheets, images, and videos. (Privacy Policy)
Google Hosted LibrariesJavascript software libraries such as jQuery are loaded at endpoints on the googleapis.com or gstatic.com domains, for performance and efficiency reasons. (Privacy Policy)
Features
Google Custom SearchThis is feature allows you to search the site. (Privacy Policy)
Google MapsSome articles have Google Maps embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
Google ChartsThis is used to display charts and graphs on articles and the author center. (Privacy Policy)
Google AdSense Host APIThis service allows you to sign up for or associate a Google AdSense account with HubPages, so that you can earn money from ads on your articles. No data is shared unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Google YouTubeSome articles have YouTube videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
VimeoSome articles have Vimeo videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
PaypalThis is used for a registered author who enrolls in the HubPages Earnings program and requests to be paid via PayPal. No data is shared with Paypal unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Facebook LoginYou can use this to streamline signing up for, or signing in to your Hubpages account. No data is shared with Facebook unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
MavenThis supports the Maven widget and search functionality. (Privacy Policy)
Marketing
Google AdSenseThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Google DoubleClickGoogle provides ad serving technology and runs an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Index ExchangeThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
SovrnThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Facebook AdsThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Unified Ad MarketplaceThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
AppNexusThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
OpenxThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Rubicon ProjectThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
TripleLiftThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Say MediaWe partner with Say Media to deliver ad campaigns on our sites. (Privacy Policy)
Remarketing PixelsWe may use remarketing pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to advertise the HubPages Service to people that have visited our sites.
Conversion Tracking PixelsWe may use conversion tracking pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to identify when an advertisement has successfully resulted in the desired action, such as signing up for the HubPages Service or publishing an article on the HubPages Service.
Statistics
Author Google AnalyticsThis is used to provide traffic data and reports to the authors of articles on the HubPages Service. (Privacy Policy)
ComscoreComScore is a media measurement and analytics company providing marketing data and analytics to enterprises, media and advertising agencies, and publishers. Non-consent will result in ComScore only processing obfuscated personal data. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Tracking PixelSome articles display amazon products as part of the Amazon Affiliate program, this pixel provides traffic statistics for those products (Privacy Policy)
ClickscoThis is a data management platform studying reader behavior (Privacy Policy)