Ten Things I Hate About You - Freedom: In the Eye of the Beholder
I have found a kindred spirit in Joseph Mussomeli.
This essay is about a Moderate's view of the political extremes of the Left and Right. It is a good read I recommend to all.
Ten Things I Hate About You
4. Freedom: In the Eye of the Beholder?
"Sometimes I wonder if those on the extremes really have any idea what freedom means. A core concept of freedom is to just be left the hell alone, especially from government oversight. For this reason, I was appalled when the Supreme Court back in 1986 (Bowers v. Hardwick) ruled as constitutional anti-sodomy laws. How, I wondered, could any sane men and women think that in a free land you can dictate to adult citizens what kind of sex they have or with whom they have it? But I was equally appalled more recently when those same liberals who would criticize the Court for trying to tell people whom they can sleep with fervently believe that that same government should tell a baker whom he must bake a cake for, regardless of his deep-seated religious beliefs. The hypocrisy on both sides is stunning. We see this same nonsense played out over and over again.
Certain conservatives are outraged that the government should try to tell them what they can do or not do with their property or what weapons they can and cannot own, yet at the same time salivate at the prospect of a Constitutional Amendment that would deny protesters the legal ability to burn the American flag—as if the flag were more important than the freedom it symbolizes. As if it is not obvious that the only flag a free people should ever honor and embrace is one that can be burned and desecrated.
The Left is no better. When leftist student fascists block conservative speakers from giving lectures and when citizens are told they have no right to speak on certain issues or wear certain items or use certain words because they are not the right gender or the right complexion, how can the Left ever be respected, trusted, or even taken seriously?"
GA- PrettyPantherposted 4 years ago
0Okay, I know I am of the liberal persuasion so naturally see more "right" in the liberal viewpoint, but....
I just can't see how telling a business that they can't discriminate based on sexual orientation is just as intrusive as telling people what kind of sex they can't have. No matter how hard I think about it, I just don't see it.That is open to a fundamental right of public accommodations to discriminate against race, gender and anything else.
I am with you, as not seeing any correlation between telling people what sex they can have and not allowing for discrimination, the conservative point of view is weak here.
I suppose you also support the causing a business to close down because the owner couldn't give a Brazilian wax to a male body part on a transgender woman?I googled it and this issue is in Canada, and I saw nothing about a particular business being forced to close.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/trans-w … 20806.html
But why are you sticking your nose in Canada's business anyway? I thought you were with Mike on his position that foreigners shouldn't comment on U.S. affairs? Doesn't the reverse also apply?
Yessum, Mistress Live to Learn, I would be more than happy to sit at the back of the bus because you are offended....
Conservatives continue to irritate me, I don't care about your consciences, if you operate a public accommodation, you had better serve everyone equally or else. I am certain to be quite litigious if I get trouble in this regard.
If the person could not stomach the procedure, perhaps he or she should get an associate or find another line of work.
You come up with all this off the wall stuff completely ignoring the principle involved.You, in my opinion, ignore the principle involved. But I get it. It's the big city attitude that laws are meant to trample individual freedoms.
When one starts with that as the premise, all atrocities are possible.Your so called "individual freedom" trampled me and mine subjecting a group of people to horrendous atrocity that was only relieved by the force of law. If the Petticoat Junction crowd is accepting of that, then we remain at odds.
The victim mentality, borrowed from people who actually were victims, is certainly necessary in justifying current atrocities.
So, with your attitude what is to keep them from being victims again?
It isn't them. That's what I usually find offensive about your arguments. Only your specific identity group appears to matter, to you, when talking about equality and fairness.
You appear to assume the only thing about society that ensures equality are laws shoving people into fair mindedness. I say, as a society, it has been our penchant for open disagreement and discussion that has allowed us to continuously evolve to more and more inclusiveness.
But, the victim mentality just keeps looking back, further and further, as current and evolving conditions prove an inability to support the claim of victim status.
That victim mentality appears to believe it is justified to create new victims. I disagree, but that is because even though you have made it crystal clear you scoff at the struggles of women to gain fair treatment and equality, I know you are just allowing yourself to ignore any struggle but the one you can relate to, personally. I come from a class that was once second class. I am not a victim because I embrace the knowledge that we have moved past that. Permanently. Or so it seemed.
Now, thanks to people like you we are in jeopardy of becoming victims again. You are willing to negate our freedoms in order to create a new class with illogical and scientifically unsupportable ideas.
But, that's ok with you. Because it doesn't affect you. Fast forward 25 years. If we give those such as you who cannot see that equality is for everyone free rein, we'll just keep creating victims. It'll just roll around and around. You, and many like you, push an agenda that sounds more like retribution for imagined slights than an agenda of real inclusivity.
And if your version of inclusivity is for those you agree with on some issues and exclusivity of others then tell me. What are you really pushing?Alright, L to L
All marginalized groups matter, I only refer to mine because of personal experiences and personal relevance. For conservatives, equality and fairness does not matter regardless of whose case you are advocating for.
I don't care what you think, but I do care about behavior. It is not that I don't trust you, but I don't trust you. Whatever came to make this society more inclusive has come at the point of a bayonet. In the Era of Trump, you muckrake the bottom and look at all the scum that rises to the surface.
Of course, being a WASP female, current conditions are just fine for you. The injustices today are just another form of what occurred in just a different way in the past. When you let scum like Trump rise to power, we are reminded that the leopard never really changes its spots.
Do you consider AA complaints about police brutality in their communities as taking a victim mentality or an injustice that needs to be corrected, for example? We haven't move PAST anything to the degree that so many of you folks believe.
I never scoffed at women in their struggle to gain equal rights, it is the Conservative men who expressed the most concern about a female commander and chief. But you white females allied yourselves with WASP males when it was convenient as a partner in oppression of minority groups. When have WASP females been lynched or had their homes and families blown up for being suffragettes? For you to compare the experience of white women with my ethnic minority (male or female), regarding oppression and violence, is to earn you a BS degree.
The problem with rightwingers is that they fail to recognize that their "freedom" ends where mine begin and vice Versa. We all have to compromise to live in a peaceful and harmonious society.
But, that's ok with you, because most of you folks have no skin in the game. We won't be turned around and you break the entire clock if there is an attempt to turn it back.
I never given anyone the impression that I deny equal rights to anyone. But this Marlboro Man image is not the America we live in today, and it will never be again.
I don't like the right winger nor conservative philosophies in general, but when have I not been inclusive?
As always, this is nothing personal, but you have to remember, you asked for it.You don't care what I think and, honestly, I've ceased to care what you think.
Please name a moment of bayonets in our life time. Heck. When did they stop using bayonets? Weren't they still manually loading with powder and pellet?
Like I said, it's getting harder and harder to find current events to use for complaints.
Calling me a wasp shows your racism and agenda.I was not referring to you personality as to caring about what YOU,
think, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. I.E, I don't care what one thinks about Jews as long as those thoughts stay just that and not expressed toward them as illicit behavior.
For heavens sakes, L to L, "bayonets" is just a figure of speech.
WASP is a descriptive term what is racist about it?
To answer you other question, I believe that beyonets were still standard issue as late as WWII.Do you not understand the use of metaphors? And since when did using the term "WASP" become an indicator of racism?
Derogatory terms to identify a specific group solely by skin color is racist.
White Anglo Saxon Protestant, what is derogatory about it?
You are labeling solely by skin color. And, just so you know, that term comes from a history of the democratic party's racism in the south. When the Klan terrorized us. All of us who weren't in their group.
Wasp was reserved for anyone who toed their racist line and supported their racist agenda.
So, even though a Democrat could enjoy privileges by claiming wasp status it is a slur for those who know what it really meant.
So even though I am white, have no idea if I'm Anglo Saxon, and couldn't really be identified as a protestant you see skin color and hurl the insult.
Yeh. It's racist. Good job being the embodiment of that you claim to stand against.Now I've seen everything.
Cred, all we can do is repudiate this nonsense at the ballot box. Defeat Trump and his "reverse racism" sycophants so soundly that they return to being embarrassed by their racist tendencies instead of defending them.If you know your history, you would recognize that white Catholics were not welcome by the Klan, either, never were Jews who had a white skin. So, term just like Asian, Hispanic or anything else is descriptive only.
I presume that you are a white female, but that does not necessarily define you as a WASP. So, If I misdefined you, I apologize. But the term is is in use commonly and is not racist.
The KLan did not know whether you were white and not Anglo-Saxon. But they did take effort to make sure that you neither Jewish or Catholic.Whatever. It's considered a racist slur by anyone I know. You are welcome to keep using it. To me, it is just another example of how acceptable racism appears to be, to the left.
By anyone you know? Wow, I'm impressed that the term has come up in conversation with "anyone you know." And, that every single person agreed the term is a racist slur. That's incredible.
But....I think this is more of an example of how it's become commonplace for fearful white people to claim reverse racism where none exists.
What a silly question. We all know that "Anglo" is the derogatory part.
;-) or :-( (your pick)
GAAnd I always thought that the word "Anglo" was synonymous with British or English.
I have no more British ancestry than i do Scandinavian, French, Indian and Spanish.
But what? We all look alike to you?I did offer an apology for misrepresenting your specific ancestry. But you are white female as such, Right?
In this culture, Identifying people as white verses non-white on observation is how people are identified and distinguished. It may not always be accurate.
In
America, if you have a white skin you can pass, African American people born light skin could pass as white, and many did to avoid the disadvantage otherwise.
I wouldn't say that you all look alike, I can distinguish between male and female........."I wouldn't say that you all look alike, I can distinguish between male and female........."
You must be on top of your game Cred, for me, even that is getting harder these days . . .
GAWhatever. You're sounding more and more racist with every response. Let's just end it with had I made such comments and generalizations about you, you'd be offended. If you say you wouldn't be, then I'd assume you were dishonest.
I don't think anybody here would say that I have been unreasonable during the course of this dialogue.
You might check yourself and see how truly "open minded" you are?There seems to be an epidemic of self-righteous indignation on the forums lately.
There is a bug going around. I hear they will have a vaccine ready in about a year.
GA ;-)
Giving you a taste of the ridiculous nature of victim outrage. You can't reason with it because it's unreasonable from many angles.
But, the left expects it to be taken seriously, if it's the outrage of a leftist.Thought long and hard overnight for a way to wiggle out of this, eh? lol
Actually I went to sleep right after I signed off from work.
Do you have a life or am I the thing that gives your world meaning? I mean, seriously.Lol,no, you just happen to have been about the only conservative on the forums the last few days, but if it makes you feel better to think you're the center of my universe, feel free.
I don't know what a unicerse but I'm just going off of how often you seem to follow me around.
Like I said, if it makes you happy....
I frequently have typos that I go back and fix. I am legally blind."legally blind" Another typo? Didn't you mean legally blonde?
GA ;-)Ha ha, I do feel like that sometimes, but I am legally a red head. Okay, true confessions, I was once legally a red head, now I am an "enhanced" red head.
I liked that movie. I like to see prejudices get their just desserts. Relative to your legally redhead point, I know what you mean. I am legally gray but my wife remains an enhanced auburn. But I like it --keeps me young at heart. I bet your husband feels the same way. ;-)
GA
"ridiculous nature of victim outrage"?
What are you talking about?You scoffed at my victim mentality. Did you not?
The only point that I am making, is that the struggle for civil rights, particularly among African Americans here, was much more violent and filled with bloodshed than the struggle for gender equality.
Anybody seriously evaluating and comparing the two should be able to recognize that right away.
No more than the Jews would be unwise to not take note of the attempted genocide in regards to them at one time, no one can afford to ignore the implication as they Say, " Never Again". Trump is too dumb to recognize that there are complex reasons why Jews vote overwhelmingly Democratic, and our motivations as Black folks and our reasons are in the same vein.
I don't know how your challenges as a white female affects your life today, I am not in a position to know
But, I tell you that the past and prior experience for myself and of my forbears are a good part of who I am today. There can be no "let bygones be bygones" unless we continue as a society to address those unwarranted inequities that have an undeniable racial component.Whoever said never let perfect be the enemy of good must have been an idiot. We must drag the balls and chains from our past forever. We will never get to the future without them. Right?
You're my buddy Cred, but you have to dump some of the baggage or you will never have the strength to march forward. You will always be able to find inequities if that is your focus. Is that your focus?
GAThe question remains, "is it really the past"? When these sorts of issues are as irrelevant as the 17th century Salem Witchcraft trials maybe then we can have some fun and interesting commentary.
Why should I forget when I am constantly reminded as to why I can't and won't forget.
We are buddies yet come from different universes and reality, each invisible to the other. Two many people would think that moving forward is commensurate with being naive as to where we are in the scheme of things. Sorry, don't have the luxury.
You are going to find that most Black People have "the baggage" but you won't find someone as frank as I am to tell you so.Okie-dokie. I take your point but will stand by my comment that prompted it.
I see it similar to the effects of holding a grudge or holding onto anger after-the-fact. It is usually more harmful to the holder than the object.
GA
Unwarranted inequities. There are unwarranted inequities in everyone's lives.
The problem is the victim wants everyone to focus only on theirs and they scoff at the next person who claims inequities.
It's sad and irritating simultaneously.
White Anglo Saxon Protestant is derogatory? Since when?
Are you having a bad morning buddy? You usually leave a little room between a strident response and one that introduces race and insults.
GAMany of the concepts are interlaced, like trying to get your omelet without breaking an egg or two. Terse and direct perhaps but no insult. If bringing up race as a bellweather of real "freedom" in America is insulting, then we have a problem with oversensitivity. That is the most obvious litmus test for me to perform.
Introducing race wasn't the insult, that was just a distracting interjection. "Pettycoat Junction folks" was the insult--at least as I read its context. And I think it is a fair illustration of the point of the OP.
As for your "litmus test," isn't that the same as making a membership card criteria?
Even idiots can make sense once in a while. Think about what you might miss by using your litmus test to open or close your mind.
GAIn the context of Live to Learn's comment "big city" attitude could be considered an insult for those of a more urban persuasion. Petticoat Junction is just a metafor for country folks. Whose says it has to be negative, it was a fun show, don't you remember?
What are talking about membership card and criteria, you guys still don't have a clue, do you?
Unfortunately most of us have an inherent suspicion of the system, so we are not as able to warmly embrace the American creed and its institutions as readily as you.
I am not going to see things the way you do, it is just that simple. It s not a matter of open or close minds, Just as with the optical illusion over the color of a dress two or three years ago, while you see red, I see blue.
If another example had been used for comparison regarding hypocrisy on both sides, would you have disagreed that there is hypocrisy on both sides?
Or are you just taking issue with degrees?
As a side note; I think you will find many good Americans that feel a forced violation of their religious beliefs is just as serious as some other good Americans feel it is unacceptable to have forced government intrusion into their sex lives.
GAGA, If you want to operate in the public sphere, you are going to have make accommodations, otherwise stay in your monastery.
"equally" might not have been the best word choice, but, as in the rest of his essay, the author spoke in generalities. I understood the point he made - hypocrisy.
Whether the comparisons rated an equal degree of condemnation is certainly a judgment call.
GA
Certain conservatives are outraged that the government should try to tell them what they can do or not do with their property or what weapons they can and cannot own, yet at the same time salivate at the prospect of a Constitutional Amendment that would deny protesters the legal ability to burn the American flag—as if the flag were more important than the freedom it symbolizes. As if it is not obvious that the only flag a free people should ever honor and embrace is one that can be burned and desecrated.
----------
“I just can't see how telling a business that they can't discriminate based on sexual orientation is just as intrusive as telling people what kind of sex they can't have. No matter how hard I think about it, I just don't see it.”
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You began the thread, surely you know that discrimination is a central theme of such a line of inquiry.
I may well be seen as a “militant” with a machete looking for an opportunity to hack anyone. That is not true. I am nice guy. The forums are a source of enlightenment and education, with a serious idea of attempting to understand contrary points of view. It is not personal, while everybody is quick to pat themselves on the back, who is the devil’s advocate? Like, any human being, I am complex entity with many sides.
Certain people without naming names complain about participation of others in these forums that do not reside in the United States. Are we afraid of differing ideas and perspectives, or do we just want to be told whatever it is we want to hear?
I am an admirer of the late writer and Civil rights activist, James Baldwin, I operate in that vein.
GA, ask the rising intolerance, why it would march in public display of blatant Anti-Semitism such not seen for over 60 years? Instead of moving forward, why would it continue to “cling to the past” honoring secessionists, traitors and slavers, virtually rioting in favor of keeping their statues in the public square? Why do we have to have the Emmitt Till memorial ( a teen murdered 65 years ago) encased in titanium to protect it from blatant desecration? I am the only one that is supposed to forget, but there are a lots of knuckleheads, as you call them, that seem to remember. But most were not alive and could not possible remember, but they attack a symbol of a principle, anyway. You had no explanation as to why the FBI (an American institution) created a category of Black terrorist that was not justified by the facts on the ground? I am not talking about the Dark Ages, but right now.
So, the question remains, who is moving forward? I am very patient with all, just show me that we are not moving backwards. My group has more reason to be suspicious, but if you honestly take a step forward, we will too.
I said “inequities” based on discrimination, not based on the fact that unseen circumstances can befall anyone of us.
Did not mean to hijack your thread, sorry.....No worries, you didn't hijack it. As for answering you, that seems a bit dangerous to me. As a white man, there are all kinds of stupid things that might tumble out.
How many forward-moving changes might be found between the times of separate water fountains to times of a Black president?
We had knuckleheads back then and we have knuckleheads now. The question might be do we have more or less of them now, and will we have even less of them in the future?
Obviously, we are still searching for perfect, but have we accomplished any good?
GA"No worries, you didn't hijack it. As for answering you, that seems a bit dangerous to me. As a white man, there are all kinds of stupid things that might tumble out."
No worries, you're allowed.... as is anybody else that seek answers and understanding. We both know that the only dumb question is the one not asked..
Yes, things have improved at lot since I was a kid, I just hope that those changes have taken root rather than being a just veneer that with enough negative energy (current political climate) could be easily dislodged bringing back all the demons that we thought were chased away.
It is just disappointing that there seems to be more knuckleheads and beyond that, that they been emboldened and strident. Are people just suppressing their actual views and outlook, waiting for an "enabler" to give tacit permission to now express?
No, I am not immediately affected, as no one has burned a cross on my lawn. The question is :is society really repentant of the past transgressions, so that I can have confidence the old ways won't return.
Sort of like the discussion we had regarding the Electoral College, while the likelyhood of this institution turning into an enemy of Democracy is remote, the possibility is there.
I like to see things like this made as improbable as possible, even though perfection can never be attainable. We are not THeRe yet, and can't rest on our laurels.You have made my day Cred. That was an excellently reasoned response.
I think the following two paragraphs really nailed our current times:
"Yes, things have improved at lot since I was a kid, I just hope that those changes have taken root rather than being a just veneer that with enough negative energy (current political climate) could be easily dislodged bringing back all the demons that we thought were chased away.
It is just disappointing that there seems to be more knuckleheads and beyond that, that they been emboldened and strident. Are people just suppressing their actual views and outlook, waiting for an "enabler" to give tacit permission to now express?"
As tenuous as some of our forward progress may seem, I do think much of it has taken root.
There is hope for you yet . . . ;-)
GA
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